| Subject: |
Re: re: LOUD Commentary on Last Election |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 03 Dec 1999 00:15:20 -0800 |
|
Excellent Job!
Germancius, can you or Graecus please put a link to this Site?
Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Consul
<a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a> wrote:
> From: <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a>
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
>
> <<Perhaps now
> that the period for candidate applications is over, there could be a limited
> time "election web page" posted with the following info:
>
> 1. What laws/positions are being voted on.
> 2. The deadline for voting.
> 3. A brief sentence on where and HOW to vote.
> 4. A brief description of each magisterial position being voted on, with a
> brief statement from each candidate, so that voters can at least gain enough
> preliminary info to ask more questions.>>
>
> I have quickly put toghether a compilation of the offices, candidates, and Laws for use during this election. A lack of time prevents anything as extravagent as an a special addition of the Eagle, but perhaps this very simple webpage can be of some assistance. It consists mainly of statements and information taken directly from the email list. If I have misrepresented anyone, or if any candidates wish to add to their introductory announcements, please contact me and I will make the changes ASAP.
>
> Valete,
> Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
>
>
|
| Subject: |
REVISION: Lex Cornelia de Privitas Rebus |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Fri, 03 Dec 1999 00:16:10 -0800 |
|
Here are the revisions to the Lex.
Confidential information will consist of information obtained on the
application for citizenship and on the e-mail address list that can be
obtained from Onelist. This shall also include subscription lists from
the Eagle newsletter.
Censors, Consuls, Curator Differum and Curator Sermonem are to be the
only individuals who have access to this information. However, in the
event that a lower magistrate might need some of the information, they
are to apply to the Censors to obtain that information.
Only magistrates or magisterial assistants may have possession of
confidential information.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Consul
|
| Subject: |
re: election Web site |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:09:43 EST |
|
Salve Gnaeus Tarquinius,
Great job! You are to be commended for it.
One small request -- on the page containing my announcement of candidacy,
underlining is turned on throughout the text. Could you fix that please?
Thank you,
L. Sergius Aust.
On 12/3/99 1:55 AM <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a> (<a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a>)
wrote:
>From: <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a>
>
>Salvete, Quirites.
>
><<Perhaps now
>that the period for candidate applications is over, there could be a limited
>time "election web page" posted with the following info:
>
>1. What laws/positions are being voted on.
>2. The deadline for voting.
>3. A brief sentence on where and HOW to vote.
>4. A brief description of each magisterial position being voted on, with a
>brief statement from each candidate, so that voters can at least gain enough
>preliminary info to ask more questions.>>
>
>I have quickly put toghether a compilation of the offices, candidates, and
>Laws for use during this election. A lack of time prevents anything as
>extravagent as an a special addition of the Eagle, but perhaps this very
>simple webpage can be of some assistance. It consists mainly of statements
>and information taken directly from the email list. If I have
>misrepresented anyone, or if any candidates wish to add to their
>introductory announcements, please contact me and I will make the changes
>ASAP.
>
>Valete,
>Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar
|
| Subject: |
Survey Results |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Fri, 03 Dec 1999 01:26:21 -0800 |
|
Salvete Omnes!
First off I want to thank everyone who submitted a survey to me. In
total I have received 32 surveys. This included citizens, ex-citzens
and non-citizens. While most of the surveys were e-mailed I received
some there were even snail-mailed. I have taken them all and read each
one and prepared this paper. Before I get into the conclusions of this
survey, I wanted to say a few words. First of thanks to everyone, your
information has been very helpful and I am sure some of you who
submitted some information are already seeing some of your suggestions
put into practice. Secondly, I hope that this survey, albeit changed
and restructured, might become a common feature issued by future Nova
Roman Magistrates so that we can be certain that we are keeping in touch
with the citizen body of Nova Roma.
The feedback I have gotten illustrate some of the problems that we have
as an internet community. Many of the comments speak of the bad times
during the Interregnum and the concerns over the appointment of a
Dictator. The incivility of the Nova Roman Mailing List. But also
there were hopes and the thoughts of future growth, cohesiveness and
also community. Nova Roma, while being a new nation has gone through
alot in our almost 2 year history. And, this survey, I believe, will
point to a new direction where our magistrates can have access to
citizens opinions and thought in a different platform.
Now for the guts of the survey:
12 Patrician and 15 Plebeians are recorded 3 non-citizens included.
The Primary reason for joining: Interest in Roman/Hellenic culture and
a way to learn more about the past. Also, an interest in resurrecting
an ancient civilization.
Some of the reasons given why Nova Roma did NOT met expectations:
Because of the period of the Crisis and the Dictator
False impression - fragmented and uncertain future
Lose of sight of the organization's goals
Bickering and backstabbing (on e-mail list)
Some of the suggestions to improve Nova Roma:
More cohesion and purpose
Better communication
Implementation of Dues Structure
More action by the Curator Sermonem
Establishment and participation in outside projects
More participation by the population at large
Focus more on Roman Issues than on politics
More emphasis on Stoic Virtues
A Current citizens list that is linked with e-mail addresses
The Dictator Question:
Suspension of communication privileges on those individuals who show a
lack of Roman Virtues
A tax on those who forment political intrigue
Dues Structure Implemented
Lex Privatus de Rebus
Eliminate the Office of Dictator
A Lex on the limit of the power of paterfamilias
The Pontifex Maximus Question:
A Canon for the Religio
Cut the deadweight from the Original Religio Procedures
Implementation of the Training Program
Journal of Religious Study
Enlarge the Religious Body of Nova Roma
Try to form a Permanent Ecumenical of Non-Monothestic Faiths
More research of public rituals
More research on private prayers
Up to date list of contacts of Nova Roma's Religious Officials
Better development of the Religio portion of the website
Chatroom
Most results was that the chat room was ok. However, there were some
requests for improvement to a more stable platform.
E-mail Lists
Well as a whole everyone thought there needed to be more civility and
more interaction from the Curator Sermonem.
Other Suggestions I received:
Establishment of a Political, Legal and a Newbie Sodalicum/Collegium
Change the picture to a more Republican figure.
Establishment of Provinces and Governors where we currently lack those
currently.
Thank you for taking the time and the opportunity to read over this. I
do apologize for the lateness of the posting. I am glad I got it done.
Personally I would like to thank my Assensus for assisting me in this
preparation.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Consul
|
| Subject: |
Nice Post |
| From: |
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:16:32 -0500 (EST) |
|
Salve. Claudius Nigellius;
A very nice post, and I thank you for your kind comments. I must admit
that while I have not yet mastered the art of effective Internet
communication, it does seem that I spend a lot of time at it (Grin!!!!)
Perhaps in my enthusiasm to recognize the prompt action of Palladius, I
chose words which did not sufficiently tell the whole story. I did not
assume that your comments were being overly critical of Palladius as
much as I wished hm to have a supporter for his actions.
As you know there have been times in the past months when support for
any attempt to set things right, properly done or not, has been scarce
indeed. Not knowing you except by your antecedents on this list, my
asumption was that you were a decent sort and would not mind much my
comments. You are of course correct in the fact that abrupt changes are
not good for the maintenance of good government, but we are just
recovering from a harrowing experience in NR, as you are aware, and
sometimes instinctive actions such as Palladius demonstrated are the
thing to do. My defense was intended as a support for his insight in
doing somethng. even though abrupt, which worked well.
I do not advocate such as an everyday menu. I am a strong believer in
support, praise and appreciation. It is the coin for which, in certain
cases, men are willing to die for and yet it takes nothing from the
treasury. It can be overdone, it is true, but is usually underdone even
though the cost to the giver is negligable, because of a usury of
spirit. I suspect that you are well aware of all this anyway. You are
certainly safe from any criticism from me, and I agree with your
comments entirely, but special results bring special opportunities and I
thought this one of them. I appreciate your very polite post and the
opportunity to explain my action and my thoughts behind it.
Vale, Roman;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: re: election Web site |
| From: |
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:32:00 -0500 (EST) |
|
Salve, Gnaeus Tarquinius;
Your diligence and quick action are to be commended. The site would
seem to be able to serve those who are in need of such most admirably.
I thank you for your efforts on behalf of Nova Roma.
Consul Sulla has just posted a change to his Lex on Confidential
Information if you have not already made the correction.
Vale, Roman, with thanks;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens;
Praetor et Senator
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Survey Results |
| From: |
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 08:40:03 -0500 (EST) |
|
Salve, Consul Sulla;
Sir; I thank you for your posting of the results of your survey for the
whole of NR to view. I am most appreciative of your effort in such and
wish to thank you on behalf of myself and those Magistrates and
Magistrate Candidates who will find within that informative packet of
information the means to better organize their efforts to make of NR
what the Citizens of that institution desire.
Vale, Consul Sulla;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Mincius Audens
Praetor et Senator
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Election Website :) |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:37:08 EST |
|
Salvete!
MANY thanks to Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar for his quick and excellent job in
putting up a temporary page about the election! AVE!!! :)
This site will allow Citizens to be able to get the crucial election
information in one place, rather than trying to get *everything* from
postings to the list.
>Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar (<a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a>) writes:
>I have quickly put toghether a compilation of the offices, candidates, and
Laws for use during this election. A lack of time prevents anything as
extravagent as an a special addition of the Eagle, but perhaps this very
simple webpage can be of some assistance. It consists mainly of statements
and information taken directly from the email list. If I have misrepresented
anyone, or if any candidates wish to add to their introductory announcements,
please contact me and I will make the changes ASAP.
>The address being:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Election1.html" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Election1.html</a>
|
| Subject: |
soft Commentary on Last Election |
| From: |
Diana Aventina <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114176113185158237169037163101249089000144044067209130152" >diana_aventina@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:56:40 -0800 (PST) |
|
>40, out of a population of 337 (now 394) eligible voting
citizens!!! 40 votes!!! On this list alone, which
> > > comprises most of Nova Roma's most active citizens,
> there are about 125 people.
A question: if there are 125 Nova Romans on this list but
there is a total of 394 citizens, where are those 269
citizens? Are they snailmailers (in which case, so they
even know that there is an election?) or are they part of
one of the list members' gens (in which case, the main
email user of the family should make sure that everyone
else votes).
Does that 394 include everyone who has ever subscribed and
unsubscribed to the Nova Roma list (and perhpas should no
longer be considered a citzen?
And besides that, I may not be alone in that I am very
interested in Nova Roma, Religio Romana etc, but find all
of these elections, nominations, speeches, etc a bit dull.
When I didn't vote the last time, it was because I am not
interested in fancy titles (not for myself and not for
anyone else--sorry).
If there are 125 people on this list, if I had to guess, I
would say that 50% of them have some kind of long 2
sentence title... (Yes! I know, I know...it is necessary in
order to run a government....
Besides that, I think that 40 votes out of 125 is pretty
good! And this time I will vote, since there is something
to vote on in Britannia.
Bright Blessings,
Diana
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: <a href="http://shopping.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://shopping.yahoo.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: re: LOUD Commentary; (Site Add.) |
| From: |
"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:46:30 -0500 |
|
Salvete cives
Me too.
Caesar's site contains all information necessary for citizens to understand
how to vote; everything there looks good to me.
Candidates, could you perhaps help Caesar a little by sending brief platform
statements for him to include there? It's just a suggestion that would
address some of the concerns voiced by Kyrinia earlier about not knowing
who's who, what they're all about et cetera.
Valete
C Marius Merullus
rogator
>From: Claudius Nigellus <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=219128113182248132130232066026192239248105163214013123152150172" >claudius--------llus@--------</a>
>
>Salvete
>
>I would like to thank publicly Gn. Tarquinius Caesar for coming forward,
>taking the issue in hand and producing the special election page. I
heartily
>recommend it to all Citizens as a useful means of distilling the relevant
>election content from the rest of the list's exchanges.
>
>Valete
>Ap. Claudius Lucentius Nigellus
>Legatus Cymricae
>Candidate for Praetor
>
|
| Subject: |
Election Website :) and a question |
| From: |
Diana Aventina <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114176113185158237169037163101249089000144044067209130152" >diana_aventina@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:18:49 -0800 (PST) |
|
>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Election1.html" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Election1.html</a>
I've just visited the election website and I think that it
is a great initiative. You gave us all a great
straight to the point overview of the elections and the
candidates. Thanks! (and i really think that this website
will generate more interest in the elections and voters.
And a question: I couldn't seem to find the page where I
should insert my voter code and vote. (I have been busy at
work and so I hope that I haven't missed the deadline.... )
Could someone let me know?
Thanks!
Bright Blessings,
Diana
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: <a href="http://shopping.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://shopping.yahoo.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
ATTN: NEW PUBLIC GAMES PAGE AT THE NR SITE |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:22:38 -0000 |
|
Salvete cives
One of the most important social activities in the ancient Roman World were
the Public Games. Ifo about these were until now lacking in the NR site.
This is no more.
I've added the page I had promised to build as Aedilis Plebis. This page was
already built, but due to other priorities in Nova Roma, its addition was
somewhat delayed.
I hope that the material there presented suits your expectations. Feel free
to present sugestions of improvement.
People of Rome! I invite you to enter the Ludi page at
<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/ludi/index.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/ludi/index.html</a>
Valete omnes
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Aedilis Plebis
|
| Subject: |
(Site Add.) |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:11:42 -0500 |
|
Salvete et Salve Caesar
Magnus Opus, Caesar! Mille grati tibi ago!
Valete, Lucius Equitius
Message: 2
Date: 3 Dec 1999 07:59:25 -0000
From: <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=137166192112158209015147190036129" >Caesar@--------</a>
Subject: re: LOUD Commentary; (Site Add.)
Salvete iternum.
The address being:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Election1.html" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/7249/Election1.html</a>
Valete,
Gnaeus Tarquinius
|
| Subject: |
ATTN: Contra Corneliam legem - longish and political was REVISION: Lex Cornelia de Privitas Rebus |
| From: |
"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:55:31 -0500 |
|
Salvete Consul Luci Corneli et alii
The following is a crticial message relevant to a law to be put to a vote in
the Comitia Populi Tributa. If uninterested in the state and future of Nova
Roma, and about your own privacy in NR, please delete this message now.
I thank you Consul Luci Corneli for your concern about the privacy of Nova
Roma's citizens, an important issue indeed. I also thank you for answering
some of the questions posed by citizens in relation to the proposed law. I
am sorry that I am forced to post criticism, but my intent is not to bicker
or do anyone harm. On the contrary, I believe that your law, even in
revised form, does more harm than good, while it could be revised to do much
good, and so I hope to see either of the following results:
i) Optimally, slight (in terms of effort and wording) further revision of
your law to exclude consular access by default to confidential information.
I have little hope left for this outcome.
ii) At least, to encourage the people of Nova Roma to vote against "Lex
Cornelia de Privatus rebus" in its present form. In the absence of any law
on privacy, we shall be left with the status quo, preferable to the
alternative of granting consules this default access.
Twice now I have pointed out, as Audens has once, that a reason for consules
to have by default access to citizens' confidential information is not
evident. I have asked for an explanation of why this consular access to
everyone else's lives is built into your proposed law. I have reviewed your
reply messages but find no answer whatsoever to this, I think, pretty
straightforward question. Did I miss something? Again, why does a consul
need to have unlimited access to citizens' legal names, street addresses, et
cetera?
Since you have left the consular access in the law, the law's major effect
will be to grant the consules the power to demand confidential information
about citizens from their subordinates. This is now the status quo as I
understand it:
- the censores, in performing their duties of processing citizenship
applications and maintaing the album civium, receive and maintain
confidential information on NR citizens,
- In addition, the curator differum acquires confidential information of
citizens subscribing to the Eagle,
- In addition, the curator sermonum has access to some confidential
information of citizens subscribing to NR's official e-mail fora based on
Onelist.
There are already, then, at least two NR magistrates, the censores, who have
our confidential information. Depending on how actively citizens choose to
participate, there may be four magistrates who have such information of any
given citizen. Is this correct? If other magistrates have received
confidential information on citizens via some official channel, please
explain --
- which magistrates got what
- how, when and why
- why you, as a magistrate concerned about privacy, have not alerted us, the
citizens, to this situation?
"Lex Cornelia de Privatus rebus" says that "Censors, Consuls, Curator
Differum and Curator Sermonem are to be the only individuals who have access
to this information". So, your law adds two more magistrates who can have
access to confidential information by default. And not just any two more
magistrates, but the most powerful magistrates, who have the power of
intercessio over just about everyone else, and can therefore put more
pressure on magistrates than anyone else.
Please, Consul Luci Corneli, take "Consuls" out of there.
Cives, I urge you to vote against "Lex Cornelia de Privatus rebus" if it is
submitted to the Comitia Populi Tributa in its present form.
Valete
C Marius Merullus
|
| Subject: |
Re: ATTN: Contra Corneliam legem - longish and political was REVISION: Lex Cornelia de Privitas Rebus |
| From: |
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:45:16 -0500 (EST) |
|
Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma;
Unknown to C. Marius Merrullus. I have made a second plea to the author
of the subject law to change the requirements for the access of Consuls
to Confdential Information. He has returned his reply to me in a
private message, and unfortunately his reply is coupled with a response
which I may not share, as I have certified in the past, that it is my
belief that personal messages are not to be shared without the
permission of both parties. I can only say that, in my estimation, his
(Consul Sulla) response does not remove the danger of a spread of
Confidential Information that the subject Lex is written to control.
I therefore must join with Rogator Merrullus in requesting that the
Citizens of Nova Roma be very critical in reading the subject law, and
be doubly cautious in approving this law in it's present form.
I am running for one of the Consul's positions, and I flatter myself
that I am aware of the meaning of the laws and the wording of the
Constitution in regard to that office. While I pledge to you, the
Citizens of Nova Roma, that I will never use Confidential Information in
an improper way, I say this to you as well. I cannot concieve of any
situation in which I would require access to that information indicated
by Rogator Merrullus in order to carry out my duties as Consul, should I
be elected to that position. To be sure the Confidential Information
would in certain situations make the task easier, but in my estimation
that is not a reason to put that Confidential Information at risk. In
the miitary when classified information is handled in great volume there
has always been a two-point rule, that classified information is only
released to personnel with a proper clearance and the NEED to know. even
to the highest ranking of officers Therefore even the highest ranking
officers must show reason or need to get access. I believe, as an NR
Praetor, in this case, NEED to know has not been proven or even
addressed to my knowledge.
In closing, at this time and without further information on this
subject, I urge upon the Citizens of Nova Roma the utmost caution in
approving a law that places NR Confidential Information more at risk
than need be, and allows access of such to those who have no proven NEED
to know.
Valete, Citizens of Nova Roma;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Praetor et Senator;
Candidate For Consul
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: ATTN: Contra Corneliam legem - longish and political was REVISION: Lex Cornelia de Privitas Rebus |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:36:20 -0800 |
|
Yes, we have been in communication, and Gaius Marius Merrullus and I are
trying to work a way around some issues. Once that happens, the People will
be the first to know. This is a very important Lex. Something that needs
to be implemented in Nova Roma. It is important that issue is debated
fully. I expected there to be changes in this. Whenever changes are made
they will be noted on the Nova Roma List. Thank you for all who are
concerned with this issue. If you have any input you can e-mail the list or
me privately.
L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul
----- Original Message -----
From: James Mathe--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] ATTN: Contra Corneliam legem - longish and political
was REVISION: Lex Cornelia de Privitas Rebus
> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
> Salvete, Citizens of Nova Roma;
>
> Unknown to C. Marius Merrullus. I have made a second plea to the author
> of the subject law to change the requirements for the access of Consuls
> to Confdential Information. He has returned his reply to me in a
> private message, and unfortunately his reply is coupled with a response
> which I may not share, as I have certified in the past, that it is my
> belief that personal messages are not to be shared without the
> permission of both parties. I can only say that, in my estimation, his
> (Consul Sulla) response does not remove the danger of a spread of
> Confidential Information that the subject Lex is written to control.
|
| Subject: |
Re: Comments on the Contra Corneliam legem - |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:18:37 EST |
|
Salvete!
Gentlemen, I'm confused (a new state for me) about this privacy issue. Do we
actually believe that someone is going to be selling our list of citizens to
direct mailing organizations for money?
As far as I can tell, the only people in this organization who has access to
the these lists are with mundane names and addresses are the Censores and the
Scribus of the letter.
In all the other organizations I've have belonged throughout the world
EVERYBODY has access to names and address of one another. Why? Because we
need to communicate. That's WHY we join organizations like this, to MEET
people with like interests. If there is one place Nova Roma has FAILED to
accomplish anything, is in making communication easier not harder. Yes, I
know all about Roman Days, but that is on the East Coast. We need a central
location for us US members to meet, a central location for European members
to meet. We also need to have a FACE to FACE gathering of the Senate at
least once a year. We need to work on these problems. We are an Internet
micronation which has its limitations. We need to start removing some of
those, if this organization will grow and prosper.
We don't need this Lex. Vote no against it. Let's concentrate on making
Nova Roma more concentrated, rather then diluting it!
Valete!
Q Fabius Maximus
Curule Aedile
|
| Subject: |
Book Review: The Cuisine of Sacrifice Among the Greeks |
| From: |
JSA <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=081166091180193192130061163101147165026048139046" >varromurena@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:01:11 -0800 (PST) |
|
Detienne, Marcel, and Jean-Pierre Vernant, eds. _The
Cuisine of Sacrifice Among the Greeks_. With essays
by Jean-Louis Durand, Stella Georgoudi, Francois
Hartog, and Jesper Svenbro. Translated by Paula
Wissing. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1989.
vii + 276 pp. Bibliography. Index. ISBN 0-226-14351-1
(cloth), 0-226-14353-8 (paper).
This academic collection contains the following
essays:
1) Marcel Detienne, "Culinary Practices and the
Spirit of Sacrifice."
2) Jean-Pierre Vernant, "At Man's Table: Hesiod's
Foundation Myth of Sacrifice."
3) Jean-Louis Durand, "Greek Animals: Toward a
Typology of Edible Bodies."
4) Jean-Louis Durand, "Ritual as Instrumentality."
5) Marcel Detienne, "The Violence of Wellborn
Ladies: Women in the Thesmophoria."
6) Marcel Detienne and Jesper Svenbro, "The Feast of
Wolves, or The Impossible City."
7) Jean-Pierre Vernant, "Food in the Countries of
the Sun."
8) Francois Hartog, "Self-Cooking Beef and the
Drinks of Ares."
9) Stella Georgourdi, "Sanctified Slaughter in
Modern Greece: The "Kourbania" of the Saints."
10) Jesper Svenbro, "A Bibliography of Greek
Sacrifice."
An academic collection of essays on work in
progress, this volume is of qualified usefulness for
either the student of ancient Hellenic religion or the
modern practioner of such.
The first essay, by Marcel Detienne, sets the tone
with the Orphic tale of the death of Dionysus,
placing blood sacrifice at the heart of Greek
religious and political life. While interesting in
itself, to any
who has read any introductory works in the field,
this detailing of the basics of Greek sacrifice should
be old news.
The second essay is a bit more useful, but also more
difficult to understand. Vernant's question concerns
why it is that though "Sacrifice appeared as an
offering to the gods to honor them and encourage
their favor...how can we explain that instead of
setting the best part aside for them, men give the
gods the inedible part of the animal, the scraps as it
were?" (p.21). Walter Burkert, in _Homo Necans_,
relies
upon anthropological reasonings, but Vernant, here,
relies upon a close reading of Hesiod, connecting the
question with the story of Prometheos and the gift
of the first woman "with dangerous seductive powers"
(p. 23). Vernant presents the sacrifice as part of a
whole complex of restrictions and constraints,
following precise rules, setting men apart from
animals (who tear and eat their meat raw), sanctioning
a feast of flesh while simultaneously making men aware
of the
mortality of their condition, and, since in return
for fire, Zeus sent humans the curse of Woman, the
realization that there can be "no more happiness
without unhappiness; birth without death; plenty
without want; food and pleasure without hunger and
decay and death" (p. 86).
The third essay, "Greek Animals," details the
rituals and procedures entailed in an animal
sacrifice. For those modern practitioners who wish to
engage in
sacrifice, this essay should prove most useful.
The fourth essay, "Ritual as Instrumentality," goes
into more detail on the rituals of sacrifice, which
included hanging the carcass of the willing
sacrifice (first doused with sacred water) from a
nearby tree. It struck me, while reading this essay,
of the similarity of the account of the crucifixion of
Jesus, and also the use by worshippers of holy water
(in Catholic churches) blessing themselves, upon
entering the sacred precinct (the church), before
taking part in yet another sacrifice of the mystical
body of Christ--perhaps as "victims" themselves, with
the accounts of Greek sacrifice, and how this imagery,
alien to us today, must have struck the Hellenic
pagans of old.
The fifth essay, "The Violence of Wellborn Ladies",
was easily the most interesting of those in this
collection, dealing, as it does, with the status of
women in ancient sacrifice and worship. As Detienne
puts it, "In the cult of Demeter Thesmophoros...can
be seen the contradictions within a society and system
of thought that deliberately relegates the female sex
to the periphery of the politico-religious space but
finds itself led...to give women a determing role in
the reproduction of the entire system" (p. 129).
Detienne notes that when it comes to meat and blood
sacrifice, women "cannot function as full adults"
(p. 132), nor can they use the culinary instruments of
the "normal" domestic world. Nonetheless, many
priesthoods and ministries are open to women, some
exclusively so, many involving politico-magisterial
duties such as managing funds, reporting to the
Popular Assemblies, interacting with the archons and
strategoi, etc. For Detienne this contradiction is
symbolized most
closely in the Thesmophoria, whose purpose, he states,
is "to ground it in the center of the city and at the
heart of politics" (p. 137). For the women, for three
days, function as a polis without men, choosing their
own leaders, setting their own rules, and exercising
power within this system, including blood
sacrifice--though still the butcher, the mageiros, is
still a male, who leaves the festival as soon as his
job has been performed: "In other words, the Greek
system does not allow any thought of women as butchers
and sacrificers" (p. 143).
The sixth essay, "The Feast of the Wolves," I found
of little use. This work likens the sacrifice to the
practices of wolves as seen in Greek myth; however,
I personally failed to see the example of the wolf as
less a model and more in the line of parallel
practices that, when added to roasting and boiling
of the sacrifice, have no parallels. Equally so I
found
the seventh essay, "Food in the Countries of the
Sun," as ignoring various economic and anthropological
models in favor of a more tenuous mythical reading.
The eighth essay, "Self-cooking beef and the Drinks
of Ares," attempts to use contemporary Greek attitudes
towards blood sacrifice as "a way of inquiring into
human groups, of marking distances and suggesting
otherness" (p. 170), especially with respect to the
Skythians. Those interested in the cult of Ares
might find this essay useful.
Finally, the ninth essay, "Sanctified slaughter in
modern Greece" examines sacrificial practices among
the modern Greeks. This is a Kourbani, the blood
sacrifice of a domestic animal (sacrificial victims,
as the third essay points out, are always domestic
animals) "to the saint, for the whole village" (p.
184), usually the patron saint of that village, upon
that saint's feast day. However, occasionally the
sacrifice is to the Trinity, or to Mary. Such
sacrifices involve the village priest---never in the
role of butcher, but as distributor of the food in
equal portions in the shared communal feast which
follows the sacrifice, boiling the meat in caldrons
outside the village church (where also the sacrifice
took place). Those interested in modern survivals of
ancient practices would find this essay quite useful.
The tenth item, the bibliography, has serious
problems for the English speaker, in that nearly all
the monographs and studies cited herein are in French
or German. However, the endnote references are
extensive, and useful as referring to primary sources,
nearly all of which are readily available in the Loeb
series.
Overall, I found the value of this collection to the
modern practitioner to be quite mixed. This is
undoubtedly due to this work's intended
audience--specialists in the field of Greek religion
and Greek myth. For those specialists, this work is
of considerable value. But for practitioners, while
some of the essays will prove of value, others will
not. The essays are also heavily laden with jargon,
and
set in a theoretical literary framework unfamiliar to
most lay people. This, then, is not a work suitable to
the beginning student. However, for those who already
have a basic knowledge of this field, and wish to know
more in detail, not just in the practice, but the
reasoning behind the practice, this work should prove
useful.
Therefore, while I cannot give this study a high
recommendation, it is not without its merits, and
thus receives my qualified recommendation.
L. Licinius Varro Murena
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