Subject:	Re: ATTN- A New Sensible Proposal For Minimum Age Law
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 00:48:02 -0500 (EST)

On 6 Dec 1999 &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=034233091161146153033082190" >--------@--------&--------a> wrote:

> From: &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=034233091161146153033082190" >--------@--------&--------a>
>
>
>
> Salvete Omnes Novae Romae Cives.
> I'm Lvcivs Annevs Lavrentivs from the Mother Italica Provincia.
>
> Now, I don't wanna compare the Cursus Honorum to slavery or sexual discrimination, and I understand the will of our governors to realize NR primitive tasks, but I also think we should consider what I exposed above, to conclude that Cursus Honorum can be resurrect in NR, but not at the conditions that the law-proposal indicates.
> Let's make an example: I'm 18 old now, and I'm happy to be citizen of NR
> and (at the moment) I hope to stand for a long time as citizen; but I
> can't know at now if in 9 years (2008) I still will be an active member
> of this Republic: 9 years in a man's life are a lot of time, and
> whoknows
> how many things will happen during this time! Why 9 years (maybe are you
> wondering)? Because only in 9 years (in accordance with the Minimum Age
> Law) I may candidate for Consul! 9 YEARS!
> And I could even see an unknown 27 old man, who doesn't know anything
> about NR, coming in 8 years and candidate for Consul! Is it right? I
> don't think so.

Most nations have age requirements for political positions, including the
United States and quite probably Italy has as them as well. It shows that
such positions are taken seriously by the nation and that some life
experience is necessary for some leadership positions.

> For a virtual society, where time is so much faster than in real life,
> THESE age limits aren't ACCEPTABLE: we only risk this way to lose NR
> future: the Youth.
> I conclude this participation with a personal proposal for Cursus Honorum.
> We could follow the Cursus Honorum, not by age, but by offices held
> (and this really happened in Ancient Rome!): for example, you can't
> become consul before you held the office of Quaestor (it's just an
> example); and you can't become Quaestor if you haven't been elected in a
> lower role.

Of course this is the idea that we have in mind. Sulla and I have
instituted the first step of the cursus honorum by instituting age limits.
you are quite right that the ancient cursus honorum required that one go
from one position to the next, but each position had an age limit.
Quaestor was the first step, which one sought at the age of 30; praetor
was next with the age of 36 (I believe); and consul was the final step at
age 42. Censor came after that though I am not sure if there was an age
requirement, but rather one of auctoritas. By putting age requirements
into law, we will be putting the first step of the cursus honorum
into place. Later consuls will put into law the rest
of the steps. It was too early to do that however, because that would
have been more limiting than age. Only a handful of people would have
been eligible for the senior offices.

In time, the cursus honorum will be fully implemented--this is a fair and
practical first step.


Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul

Subject:	Re: ATTN- A New Sensible Proposal For Minimum Age Law
From:	Decius Iunius Palladius amcgrath@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:17:03 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113082020165082153015098190036129" >Exitil@--------</--------; wrote:

> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113082020165082153015098190036129" >Exitil@--------</--------;
>
> In a message dated 12/6/99 10:09:44 AM Central Standard Time,
> &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=034233091161146153033082190" >--------@--------&--------a> writes:
>
> > Moreover we've to consider that our specific society of NR is a VIRTUAL
> > community, that is we have some advantages and some disadvantagesas regards
> a
> > REAL society.
>
> Thats part of my point too. If this was real Rome (or a landed community),
> there would be alot more things to do, while in NR the only offices that
> TRULY get things done are Consul and Praetor. I know some will disagree, who
> believe that running a newspaper or selling small statues or...something is a
> worthwhile job but personally unless it is truly advancing the Republic
> noticably it isn't something I would want to do.

I find this attitude disturbing from a citizen and perhaps it explains the
lack of candidates for many positions. What do you consider advancing the
Republic? Only being consul? Let me tell you, we could not operate without
many of the lesser positions that you scoff at and frankly, many of them
are more important to the survival of Nova Roma than some of the senior
positions such as praetor. You want to know why? Well to go over some
of the positions you mentioned and others you did not:
running the newsletter is important to
Nova Roma because it is one of our main sources of income and it gives us
a hardcopy product for people to judge us on.

Selling statues (or trinkets you imply) is another way of raising money,
vital to the survival of Nova Roma. Passing laws and issuing edicts is
fine and dandy but you better make sure that there is a treasury to keep
us afloat. This is where queastors come in, handling the treasury and
disbursing funds.

Possibly the most vital position in Nova Roma is webmaster, for Nova Roma
would have no central means of communication and information and perhaps
after that in importance is censor and consul. And don't forget list
moderator, the vote counters, and regional governors. Yes, praetor does
fit in there somewhere, though it is our vaguest position, with little
defintion of its role and little for the bearer of the office to do.

One cannot start at the top, you must earn your way up there. By
serving in a lesser position, you gain experience, prove yourself to Nova
Romans and SERVE Nova Roma, enabling Her to prosper. It isn't about what
is fulfilling for us at the moment, it is about advancing the cause of
Nova Roma. That my friend is where you miss the point.

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
Consul, Nova Roman

Subject:	Lex Iunia de Magistratuum Aetate
From:	A--------Pearso--------t;a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=100071080200035240184098109219176090136026139046209" >A--------Pearso--------..</a>
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:16:43 -0000

Salvete, omnes.

I receive the digest version of this list, so if someone else has already
said what I have to say below, my apologies to anyone out there who has
waded through both!

There's certainly a lot of discussion about this proposed Lex! The arguments
pro and anti are both sensible - if I have understood correctly, the pro
argument is that this lex would

a) be a step towards a recreated cursus honorum
and
b) be a safeguard against the election of persons who might not have seen
enough of the world to have developed a balanced sense of judgement. I hope
I have phrased this last in such a manner as to avoid offence to any party
who may have an interest - pro or anti - in this issue. If I haven't -
sorry!

These aims seem sensible to me, given the provision that the censors and
senate can grant immunity from the effects of this lex to individuals who
are deemed sufficiently outstanding.

However, I think Lucius Anneus Laurentius has made a good point that the
lex, whilst providing the benefits listed above, does unfairly discriminate
against citizens on the grounds of their biological age. By this, I mean his
point that a 26 year old citizen of several year's standing must be
exceptional to be allowed to stand for consul, whereas a completely fresh 27
year old citizen doesn't have to be even average to stand.

The ancient cursus honorum was, quite logically, based on biological age.
Roma Antiqua's citizens were (mostly) born citizens, and so biological age
was (usually) equal to length of citizenship (and thus to experience of the
world in general and Rome in particular). In our case, there is no such firm
link between biological age and experience of the res publica.

May I suggest that state discrimination against the inexperienced (which is
what the lex amounts to) should be based on length of citizenship rather
than length of life?

May I go one further, and suggest that a Lex using Century Points as a means
of allowing candidacy for office could:

a)be a fair method of excluding against the insufficiently experienced
and
b)be a move towards a cursus honorum based on succession of offices

because century points are gained by length of citizenship and offices held.

Okay, I'm nearly done now. Although I'm not a political animal, can I urge
any citizens who agree with my arguments to vote against this lex and
petition next year's magistrates (whoever they are) to draft a new lex based
on century points.

May I also ask this year's entire raft of candidates if any of them agree or
disagree with this course of action. Would any who agree be prepared to work
up a new lex on the lines I suggested?

Valete in pace,
Vindex
(not voted yet - open to persuasion for a few more days)

Subject:	ATTN: Comitia Plebis Tributa
From:	"Antonio Grilo" amg@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:58:36 -0000

Salvete cives

Please provide feedback on a possible change to the Lex Crylla de securandis
magistratus plebis.
I want to apologize because due to a viral disease (fourtunately Aesculapius
is already taking His toll on the virus) I've been somewhat unavailable
during the last few days. For that reason much of the feedback on the Lex
Crylla de securandis magistratus plebis has arrived too late.
With the desire of begetting the best possible laws and consensus among
plebeian citizens, although voting is already ongoing I plan to extent this
Comitia Plebis beyond Sunday, 19 December. The cause for this is an
ammendment to the Lex Crylla de securandis magistratus plebis, which aims at
facilitating the selection of plebeian magistrates in case there are no
candidates. This ammendment will allow the Senate to select the required
magistrates from among common citizens and only be obliged to appoint
senators as a last resource. The new Lex Crylla de securandis magistratus
plebis reads as follows:

-------------------------------------------------------
Lex Crylla de securandis magistratus plebis

If no candidates for Tribunus Plebis or Aedilis Plebis declare in December,
within 3 months from the end of the elections, the Senate must provide for
at least one magistrate to occupy each of those magistracies, by appointment
of plebeian citizens. Aspirants to an office should be examined in the
following order of preference:
1 - Candidates to other offices, who have lost in the previous elections;
2 - Magistrates currently serving that office;
3 - Any other citizens;
If after this examination there are still vacancies, the Senate shall
appoint Senators to fill the required magistracies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your feedback is most valuable.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Tribunus Plebis

Subject:	Re: Proposed Nova Roma Outreach Program and Archives
From:	Cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:05:59 EST

In --------ss--------d-------- 12/6/99 9:31:06 AM P--------ic St--------rd Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246157057089235135169082190036" >SFP55@--------</--------;
writes:

<< Salve Cassius.
Does NR have a press kit?
>>

Not as yet. There is of course *some* literature, but it has not yet been
gathered in a consise package. Nova Roma will certainly want a press kit if
we ever decide to approach the media in an organized way. A press kit
wouldn't in fact be too difficult to work up - such kits are usually a folder
which contains a cover letter, a couple of standard flyers, some photos, a
newsletter, and sometimes a brief video overview.

Once a kit is created, it's usually sent to the media when they're most
likely to run a story - say when there's a Roman event or festival running,
(something like the Pompeii exhibit now going on out in California, perhaps?)
or when ancient Rome has made the news in some way such as through a large
archaeological find.

In this way an organization can provide the media with some interesting
related material, and basically get free national or regional promotion in
return.

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Lex Iunia de Magistratuum Aetate
From:	jmath669642reng@--------)
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:52:37 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Citizens of Nova Roma;

In comment to Vindex and his points in regard to the subject law, may I
point out that the Romans required a minimum of time spent in the
military prior to standing for Quaestor. NR does not require military
or civilian service, although that service is recognized as an element
in the development of an experienced and mature citizen. By the age of
27 most people have been faced with the following requirements all of
which are extremely maturng and providing of experience:

--Completing a College degree (s);
--Finding and paying for a place to live;
--Cleaning your clothes, buying food and making a living;
--Serving in the military;
--Serving as a volunteer;
--Belonging to a fraternal club / unit;
--Gettng Married;
--Having children;
--Beginning your life work in competition with others.

Most people aged 18--22 have not faced these "life experiences in time
or essence. Unless any individual is independently wealthy everyone
finds these tasks wearing and required over time. All of these things
which most of us must do or go through is a normal life cycle all of
which provides the exerience and maturity that we are discussing.

The lex seeks to quantify that above "life experience" in a simple and
effective way, with a simple and effective way built in to the law to
make exceptions to what unfortunately is natures general rule of thumb.
As I have said before, very few young people will admit such but usually
later in life come to realize the wisdom and truth of it.

All political offices in the U.S. and I would suppose in most other
countries have an age limit and NR is no different for the same reason.
There is a minimum age for virtually everything, marriage, military, Boy
Scout Leadership, work laws, re-enactment with weapons, etc. and it is
all based upon the same principle, lack of maturity and experience at an
early age, not lack of energy, not lack of ideas, not lack of
enthusiasm, not lack of hard work, not lack of honesty and not lack of
intelligence. The lower minimum ages in given areas, are assigned
because these individuals are not expected to be required to make
decisions which affect many people. They are supposedly learning to
make wise decisions about themselves. In any area of endeavor, college,
work place, marriage, volunteer work, etc. A variety of "tests" , if
you will, are enacted upon any given individual to ensure that the
lessons previously mentioned have been learned to the degree required by
the institution into which the individual is entering. This lower age
group is expected to learn to schedule thier lives, learn thier jobs,
consider others, ake good decisions within thier paradighm, and
generally become aware of the more difficult parts of the road over
which they must travel. The very argument that such a restriction is
unfair is a mark of someone who does not understand the importance and
universiality of the requirement.

The mention of the 26 year old vs, the 27 year old can easily be met by
the exception part of the Lex if the person (26 year old) has served as
indicated. The Consuls have indicated a reduction in ages from the
Roman Period to which we are devoted to take certain practical factors
into consideration. The idea of years of service within Nova Roma is a
fair idea, but who will keep track of that information?? The "little
people" of whom some speak of so casually?? If you think those kind of
records are necessary, volunteer as a scribe, and take the job on, don't
just expect someone else to pick up the extra work!!

There are not enough people to fill the ranks now for those who need to
do the jobs, and the really important jobs, as Consul Palladius pointed
out are the ones that need support.

I guess I don't understand why some of our young people are so hipped
upon unfairness. We (NR) have offered you a law as fair and equitable
as I have ever seen, and one which has been thought out in detail. We
have offered a variety of positions in which you can be of real use to
NR and gain the experience necessary. We have reasoned as friends, not
as "oppressors" and still there is doubt about that which we have said
and why we have said it. If you disbelieve what has been said here take
the question to some older person whose input you respect, lay the
matter fairly before him / her and see what they have to say.

Most of the present magistrates have achieved their marks in 'Life
Experience" and are now engaged in service to make a viable micronation
of NR. Not for "glory" as there is little enough in any of the
positions, but rather hard work , certainly not for money as no one is
paid, in fact we strive to develop ways to earn money for Nova Roma, not
for "recognition" as most of us have already achieved that elsewhere to
our satisfaction, but rather for work, to make NR better and more
effective as those who have proceeded us, and who we have supported have
attempted to do. Look at some of the background of some of the members
who have served NR, military officers / NCOs, doctors, business men and
women, published writers, Senior Coordinators and Publishers; pushers
and movers all.

In closing I ask that you give the proposed lex the benefit of the
promises and assurances that you have recieved, open your world to some
of the needs of Nova Roma for the positions that do a great part of the
work, Let the Magistrates and thier advisors see the quality and
determination of your work, and then with that effort in hand as all of
the Magistrates now hold, petition for exception as you believe, with
hard evidence, that you deserve. Your productive work for NR will do
much towards getting your desired place, but words without the hard
evidence of your ability, willingness to work for NR, and your
willingness to listen to those who are attempting to advise you is not
very meaningful in the face of nature's rule which all of the older
members of NR have had to endure.

Valete, Citizens of Nova Roma;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens;
Praetor et Senator;
Candidate For Consul

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: ATTN- A New Sensible Proposal For Minimum Age Law
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:49:45 -0500

Salve

Please tell me exactly what you mean by your statement that I quote below.
In fact, the offices of praetor and consul are still being defined, the
former is JUST BEGINNING to be defined. NR praetores, thus far, have had
very little to do. I know of one instance in which a praetor made a summary
judgment against someone, who was obliged to do some community service for
making an offensive, threatening and religiously loaded remark on this list
just about a year ago. A currently serving praetor has invested a
substantial amount of time into preparing an edict on civil law for NR, but
he has not been able to publish the edict yet. Until he does, the office of
praetor remains very undefined in NR. I welcome correction from anyone who
has held the office.

In contrast, the vigintisexviri offices are all about work -- they are all
defined functionally rather than historically.

If some people don't want to do the work defined by the low offices, fine.
But that doesn't mean that the rest of us should cheer for them and support
their premature candidacies for high and mighty offices, either.

Valete

C Marius Merullus




>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=113082020165082153015098190036129" >Exitil@--------</--------;
>
in NR the only offices that
>TRULY get things done are Consul and Praetor.

Subject:	Re: Pan-NR meeting, Fall 2002
From:	DTibbe2926@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:31:14 EST

In a message dated 06/12/99 02:01:48 GMT Standard Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>
writes:

<< Why? First of all, it's a great place to visit Roman sites and learn more
about Roman history. Second, it's reasonably affordable and very
beautiful (important especially to those with non-Nova-Roman spouses).
Third, we have an active Provincia there, which seems to be full of
delightful people whom I'm dying to meet. Fourth, most of our membership
is English-speaking. And fifth, Cassius and I know of a wonderful
bed-and-breakfast which might make a reasonable HQ for non-British Nova
Romans. (It's located ON the wall, the proprietor has a diploma in local
history and archaeology, the food is sublime, and there's a large sitting
room which might be good for meetings or workshops.)
>>

If this does happen it might be a good idea to do it whe there is a
reeactment display at one of the forts. These usually happen at a weekend.
The latest English Heritage events list should be out soon. I'll see what's
going on.

Severus
Britannia

Subject:	Re: Lex Iunia de Magistratuum Aetate
From:	Marius Fimbria legion6@--------
Date:	Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:49:38 -0600 (CST)

Salvete omnes...!

[Disclaimer: 'The following is the sententia of L Marius Fimbria only
in his capacity as a private Citizen, and does not represent nor claim
to represent the official views of Nova Roma, Nova Roma Inc., or the
NovaRoma OneList.']

Scripsit Minucius Audens:
> The very argument that such a restriction is unfair is a mark of
> someone who does not understand the importance and universality of
> the requirement.

I have to wonder, in the midst of this debate: If Citizens (of any age)
are already chafing at such a minimal and reasonable restriction
(furthermore, a restriction with an exception-clause)...how on earth
are they--WE--ever going to rise to the iron dictates of true Roman
Discipline? The denial of Self for the greater good of Community; the
patience of decades, the ability and inclination to make a thing that
will last for centuries?

In modern mass popular culture, much is made of youth and energy,
'equality', popularity and instant gratification. THESE ARE NOT ROMAN
VALUES. These are areas in which the modern world has abandoned or
betrayed the Roman Heritage. I, for one, came to Nova Roma because my
spirit has much more in common with the Roman spirit than with modern
mass popular culture. The Roman Way is demanding; and having to wait
one's turn for a crack at the senior magistracies is the least, the
very least of its demands.

When do we begin making the changes in attitude, behavior, and *spirit*
that will make us true Romans, and not just Westerners with Roman
names?

Yours under the Eagles,
************************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
mka Märia Villarroel |\=/|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Roman Historical Re-Creationist `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Nova Roma ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman... It's hard work, _|_| / _/_| /`(
but SOMEbody's gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	Race for praetor
From:	"RMerullo" rmerullo@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:01:49 -0500

Salvete Candidati in praetorem et alii

How will each of you, assuming your victory in the present election, define
the office of praetor in Nova Roma? What historical traditions or
institutions will you keep as models?

Do you think that the office of praetor should concern itself:

- primarily with resolution of civil disputes among NR citizens?
- primarily with enforcement of the constitution and laws?
- neither (then what)?

Valete

C Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Lex Iunia de Magistratuum Aetate
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@--------
Date:	Tue, 07 Dec 1999 11:56:51 -0800

Salvete Civies.

I believe you framed the summary of both arguements very well. Let me just add
my opinion on your addition. As a Senator, I automatically would look at the
Century points, when a citizen petitions the Senate for an exemption. On top of
that I would look at their previous history of service to Nova Roma. That is
primarily how I would cast my vote. I dont believe there needs to be a
rewritten lex to tell the Senate how to vote, each Senator should be able to
make that determination on their own based upon the facts of the candidate.

L. Cornelius Sulla
Consul

Andy Pearson wrote:

> Salvete, omnes.
>
> I receive the digest version of this list, so if someone else has already
> said what I have to say below, my apologies to anyone out there who has
> waded through both!
>
> There's certainly a lot of discussion about this proposed Lex! The arguments
> pro and anti are both sensible - if I have understood correctly, the pro
> argument is that this lex would
>
> a) be a step towards a recreated cursus honorum
> and
> b) be a safeguard against the election of persons who might not have seen
> enough of the world to have developed a balanced sense of judgement. I hope
> I have phrased this last in such a manner as to avoid offence to any party
> who may have an interest - pro or anti - in this issue. If I haven't -
> sorry!
>
> These aims seem sensible to me, given the provision that the censors and
> senate can grant immunity from the effects of this lex to individuals who
> are deemed sufficiently outstanding.
>
> However, I think Lucius Anneus Laurentius has made a good point that the
> lex, whilst providing the benefits listed above, does unfairly discriminate
> against citizens on the grounds of their biological age. By this, I mean his
> point that a 26 year old citizen of several year's standing must be
> exceptional to be allowed to stand for consul, whereas a completely fresh 27
> year old citizen doesn't have to be even average to stand.
>
> The ancient cursus honorum was, quite logically, based on biological age.
> Roma Antiqua's citizens were (mostly) born citizens, and so biological age
> was (usually) equal to length of citizenship (and thus to experience of the
> world in general and Rome in particular). In our case, there is no such firm
> link between biological age and experience of the res publica.
>
> May I suggest that state discrimination against the inexperienced (which is
> what the lex amounts to) should be based on length of citizenship rather
> than length of life?
>
> May I go one further, and suggest that a Lex using Century Points as a means
> of allowing candidacy for office could:
>
> a)be a fair method of excluding against the insufficiently experienced
> and
> b)be a move towards a cursus honorum based on succession of offices
>
> because century points are gained by length of citizenship and offices held.
>
> Okay, I'm nearly done now. Although I'm not a political animal, can I urge
> any citizens who agree with my arguments to vote against this lex and
> petition next year's magistrates (whoever they are) to draft a new lex based
> on century points.
>
> May I also ask this year's entire raft of candidates if any of them agree or
> disagree with this course of action. Would any who agree be prepared to work
> up a new lex on the lines I suggested?
>
> Valete in pace,
> Vindex
> (not voted yet - open to persuasion for a few more days)
>
> [Attachments have been removed from this message]
>
>

Subject:	Re: Proposed Nova Roma Press Kit: Pictures needed.
From:	SFP55@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:05:35 EST

In a message dated 12/7/99 6:06:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >C--------us622@--------</--------; writes:

<< Not as yet. There is of course *some* literature, but it has not yet been
gathered in a consise package. Nova Roma will certainly want a press kit if
we ever decide to approach the media in an organized way.>>
Salvete Marcus Cassius et al.
OK then I'll work on the press kit. Since I have experience in that area,
I'll do it, I'll need pictures (Orig negitives would be nice). everything
else I can get or doctor up from the WEB site. Pictures should be of Nova
Roma Events, in period costume. I can scan pics sent to me. If you wish to
scan your pics to send to me, please scan them at 600 DPI so I can reprint
them in detail. Legonarii who wish to send pictures of their units, please,
they must be involved in a offical Nova Roma Events. Just your unit in Roman
costume is not enough.
Thank you for your help in this matter.
Valete,
Q. Fabius Maximus

Subject:	Re: Fwd: appreciation
From:	JSA varromurena@--------
Date:	Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:05:04 -0800 (PST)