Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:10:51 YEKT

Salvete omnes,

This last proposal of Dexippus seems reasonable to me.

The argument against equal due (tax, fee) for every citizen is that the
poorest and the reachest would pay an equal amount. This is NOT fair from my
point of view.

About the exact sum of the tax. Hmm, I don't say that 12-15$ per annum is a
big amount of money. It is not, actually. But please remember that in some
easterneuropean countries incomes are much, much smaller than in Provinciae
Americae. E.g. in Sarmatia (not in Moscow) one (I'm not telling that I have
that income, but that about the others, potential citizens?) can receive a
wage of 18-70$ per month, if one at all has job and has got his wage at all.

So, I still believe that it is not fair that a citizen with e.g. 50000$
annual income would pay exactly the same due (tax, fee) (15$=0.03% of the
income) that the citizen with e.g. 600$ annual income (2.5% of the
income)(and this is yet not so bad income here in Sarmatia;-((()

Untill NR is free - this is one matter. It's the group of enthusiasts. Since
it is requiring payment - this all looks COMPLETELY different! It is tending
to _look_ more like a commercial enterprise, especially for newcomers in
that case... This was just a personal opinion, anyway.

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
>Having a dependable income for NR activities is fine. But we should not
>charge (tax) citizens differently based upon their geographic location.
>
>I can understand the concern that U.S. residents would probably receive
>more
>benefit than say some citizen in Australia. I would therefore recommend
>that
>Provincea be ordered into some kind of Province-Block and that block
>establish an appropriate tax for that block's citizens to be used for that
>block's purposes. In that way, citizens of each local would directly
>benefit
>from their "tax". And if a certain provincia desides that no tax is needed
>for their particular block at this time, then no tax is extended to those
>citizens.
>
>--Dexippus
>
>In a message dated 1/26/00 2:50:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
><a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a> writes:
>
><< I am in favour of the passing of a set "per annum" dues for civites.
>This
> is not to say that certain moratoriums, and exemptions cannot also be
>passed
> by the Senate in the case of extenuating circumstances, ie new
>provinciae,
> civites with serious financial problems,those residing in parts of the
>world
> with less equitable economies. The republic needs a dependable income to
> meet their (our) needs. The difficulty I have with just inviting
>donations
> is that the income received would be varied and highly unpredictable. It
> would be difficult, if not impossible, for the magistrates to draw up an
> accurate operating budget on an unknown income. Vale....Pompeia Cornelia
> Strabo >>
>
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Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:13:44 PST

Salvete, Populari!

Having read the arguments thus far, it strikes me that:

1. Having just ratified the Articles of Incorporation which state that
membership is free, the imposition of a universal charge for membership will
be rather inconvenient, since the Articles will have to be re-drafted and
re-ratified;

2. Being taxed according to where you live does to some extent take account
of your probable stake in NR, and the extent to which you might derive
benefit from it. Although it does not take account of your ability to pay
per se, as Sarmaticus has pointed out, the price of a pizza in Los Angeles
can be a week's wages in Moscow.
If I read Dexippus right, he is proposing what is, in effect, a provincial
tax...

3. The benefits of a provincial tax are that it can be levied locally
according to local consensus of what is reasonable and affordable (and this
could be subject to veto by the Senate who might, say, determine a minimum
after consultation with the propraetor); monies collected can be transferred
more efficiently to the Aerarium Saturni, as a single, annual transaction;
further, provinciae would be enabled and encouraged to fund local events,
publicity, resources etc. from such a revenue - an agreed percentage could
be payable to NR's central treasury, the balance for development in the
province;

4. The Articles of Incorporation would not have to be changed, since there
would be no charge for membership per se (there would, presumably, be no tax
at all in some provinciae), simply a tax on province or residence.

Valete bene,

Nicolaus Moravius Vado

Propraetor Provinciae Britanniae.

CIVITAS RES INAESTIMABILIS EST :-)


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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:46:31 YEKT

Salvete,

Nicolaus Moravius scripsit:

Although it does not take account of your ability to pay
>per se, as Sarmaticus has pointed out, the price of a pizza in Los Angeles
>can be a week's wages in Moscow.

Well, not in Moscow! AFAIK Moscow is one of the dearest cities of the world.
I was talking about Sarmatian provincial (i.e. small) towns' unhabitants.
Moscovites can earn up to even 50-60 pizzas per month! (Waw!;-) In other
parts of Sarmatia wages indeed may be up to 10 times smaller...

>If I read Dexippus right, he is proposing what is, in effect, a provincial
>tax...

He was talking about "blocks" of Provinces, IIRC. Carissimus Dexippus, what
"blocks" did you mean? Is not a provincial tax better? At least NR
Provinciae have official status in NR, their 'blocks' - not, AFAIK.

>CIVITAS RES INAESTIMABILIS EST :-)

;-))

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE


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Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	hadji <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:37:27 +0100

Salvete Aule Artori, Dexipe et alii,

I would like to say that generaly I identify myself with what Artorius
had said. The gap between developed coutries (USA, western Europe,
Australia and Japan) and the rest of the world is enormously and too big
to consider about equal taxes for our citizens from these countries.
What is a pizza price for one is a monthly lunch amount for another.
Actually Sarmatia is not the only one and far away from being the worst
case compared with another easteuropean countries. Just the opposite,
this country is in quite better condition compared with a good dozen
countries in the regio.
With all the respect for speaches about non-geographical
differentiation, I would like to say that it would be not honest if
citizenship in Nova Roma will become a priviledge and a question of
money income.As for me personaly, I will always pay this 15$, but I
wonder if any other "normal" Pannonian will be able to suffer such
amount for the need of our republic. Then I will need to re-direct my
efforts to find new citizens within mafias or political high officials
surroundings. But I wonder wether such a peoples will be suitable
partners for you to correspond with. That is the nude true.
Let us see how the ancient Romans had received the question and to apply
their decision with few modifications.
I would like to present the model I was going to apply for the province
of Pannonia. I considered to present it with the start of the provincial
Pannonian web site I work on at the moment (and I will work on for the
future two months). There will be a kind of Pannonian Macellum where
Romans can offer services, goods and own products related to Roman
history. So, there would be payd a 10% tax from every sold item to the
treasuries of Nova Roma. 60% from the collected amout will be send at
November every year to the central Nova Roman treasury by the current
provincial governor. 40% will be collected for provincial needs
(get-together meetings etc etc). I guess the incomes from these
activities will fully overcover all the taxes for Pannonians.
Someone may think it will not function well. I guess it will. The whole
problem is to offer interesting items on good price.
Shareing you all that I risk our Pannonian macellum to be not the first
provincial one within Nova Roma, but at the moment I can not see any
province able to make concurence to Pannonia :)).
I will appreciate highly all your opinions and notes about what I wrote
here.

Bene valete

Alexander I.C. Probus
Propraetor Pannoniae Provinciae Novae Romae

Pannonia Felix


Salvete omnes,

This last proposal of Dexippus seems reasonable to me.
The argument against equal due (tax, fee) for every citizen is that the
poorest and the reachest would pay an equal amount. This is NOT fair
from my point of view.
About the exact sum of the tax. Hmm, I don't say that 12-15$ per annum
is a big amount of money. It is not, actually. But please remember that
in some easterneuropean countries incomes are much, much smaller than
in Provinciae Americae. E.g. in Sarmatia (not in Moscow) one (I'm not
telling that I have that income, but that about the others, potential
citizens?) can receive a wage of 18-70$ per month, if one at all has job
and has got his wage at all.
So, I still believe that it is not fair that a citizen with e.g. 50000$
annual income would pay exactly the same due (tax, fee) (15$=0.03% of
the income) that the citizen with e.g. 600$ annual income (2.5% of the
income)(and this is yet not so bad income here in
Sarmatia;-((()

Untill NR is free - this is one matter. It's the group
of enthusiasts. Since
it is requiring payment - this all looks COMPLETELY
different! It is tending
to _look_ more like a commercial enterprise, especially
for newcomers in
that case... This was just a personal opinion, anyway.

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS
NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

>From: Dexippus@--------
>
>Having a dependable income for NR activities is fine.
But we should not
>charge (tax) citizens differently based upon their
geographic location.
>
>I can understand the concern that U.S. residents would
probably receive
>more
>benefit than say some citizen in Australia. I would
therefore recommend
>that
>Provincea be ordered into some kind of Province-Block
and that block
>establish an appropriate tax for that block's citizens
to be used for that
>block's purposes. In that way, citizens of each local
would directly
>benefit
>from their "tax". And if a certain provincia desides
that no tax is needed
>for their particular block at this time, then no tax
is extended to those
>citizens.
>
>--Dexippus
>
>In a message dated 1/26/00 2:50:50 PM Eastern Standard
Time,
>trog99@-------- writes:
>
><< I am in favour of the passing of a set "per annum"
dues for civites.
>This
> is not to say that certain moratoriums, and
exemptions cannot also be
>passed
> by the Senate in the case of extenuating
circumstances, ie new
>provinciae,
> civites with serious financial problems,those
residing in parts of the
>world
> with less equitable economies. The republic needs a
dependable income to
> meet their (our) needs. The difficulty I have with
just inviting
>donations
> is that the income received would be varied and
highly unpredictable. It
> would be difficult, if not impossible, for the
magistrates to draw up an
> accurate operating budget on an unknown income.
Vale....Pompeia Cornelia
> Strabo >>
>
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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:04:26 YEKT

Salve et VALE (sic!) Alexandre et salvete alii!

>With all the respect for speaches about non-geographical
>differentiation, I would like to say that it would be not honest if
>citizenship in Nova Roma will become a priviledge and a question of
>money income.

This (paing money for being Novaroman) POSSIBLY would LOOK the same as if
one need to be caucasian (white) or to belong to a Roman-descendent nation
for being Novaroman. IMHO. The same discrimination, only the discriminating
feature is different (not race or ethnnicity but income).
Even 1$ per annum tax will be discriminating. Cos someone can have no
incomes at all (unemployed people etc.). Shall I hear that NR do notneed
such people being citizens?

There always have been plebs in Rome, you know...;-) They paid no taxes,
AFAIK. The _state_, Rome herself, paid for theirs bread and spectacles,
IIRC.

There will be a kind of Pannonian Macellum where
>Romans can offer services, goods and own products related to Roman
>history. So, there would be payd a 10% tax from every sold item to the
>treasuries of Nova Roma. 60% from the collected amout will be send at
>November every year to the central Nova Roman treasury by the current
>provincial governor. 40% will be collected for provincial needs
>(get-together meetings etc etc). I guess the incomes from these
>activities will fully overcover all the taxes for Pannonians.
>Someone may think it will not function well. I guess it will. The whole
>problem is to offer interesting items on good price.

Good for you Probe!
But... err... "Roman services"?... Perhaps, translations in/from Latin?
Historical reaserch? What else? Will there be a demand for it? Being an
economist, just trying to imagine potential market;-))

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE
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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:10:43 EST

In a message dated 1/27/00 7:46:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a> write--------r>
<< I would like to say that generaly I identify myself with what Artorius
had said. The gap between developed coutries (USA, western Europe,
Australia and Japan) and the rest of the world is enormously and too big
to consider about equal taxes for our citizens from these countries.
What is a pizza price for one is a monthly lunch amount for another. >>

I'm sorry, but I didn't think we had citizens in Somalia or other ravishly
poor countries. If they can afford internet access, I'm sure they can afford
the equivalent of US $1.00 a month.

<>

Mafias? Oh c'mon! If it is a question of deriving direct benefit from such
a tax, then again I propose that Provinces levie a tax on their citizens.
This would then prove to be fair for both tax denomination and derived
benefit.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:15:23 EST

In a message dated 1/27/00 9:05:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< This (paing money for being Novaroman) POSSIBLY would LOOK the same as if
one need to be caucasian (white) or to belong to a Roman-descendent nation
for being Novaroman. IMHO. The same discrimination, only the discriminating
feature is different (not race or ethnnicity but income).
Even 1$ per annum tax will be discriminating. Cos someone can have no
incomes at all (unemployed people etc.). Shall I hear that NR do notneed
such people being citizens? >>

Oh c'mon! Look...NR is not a Utopia! It is not discrimination to ask that
all citizens contribute to the growth and development of NR. What is
discrimination is the notion that the few should carry the entire weight.

Furthermore, citizenship in NR is voluntary. No one forced anyone to become
a citizen and no one will force anyone to leave or stay. If someone can't
even afford $1.00 a month but can afford to pay for internet access to argue
about it, then honey...I don't know what to say to that!

<<There always have been plebs in Rome, you know...;-) They paid no taxes,
AFAIK. The _state_, Rome herself, paid for theirs bread and spectacles,
IIRC.>>

Which again brings me to my argument of doing away with class distinctions in
NR since it serves no purpose other than historiocity. But that's another
debate.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"Rick Brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:43:33 PST

You do have a point, Dexippus..If you can afford the use of computer and
internet, you can hardly be considered in financial straights and unable to
render a buck or two a month to NovaRoma. Fiancial difficulties, and other
reasons for per annum moratoriums or exeptions could be perhaps addressed as
they arise, but really, this amount of money per month to NR doesn't sound
all that unreasonable to me. In Bona Fide...Vale, Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
1/27/00 9:05:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
><a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:
>
><< This (paing money for being Novaroman) POSSIBLY would LOOK the same as
>if
> one need to be caucasian (white) or to belong to a Roman-descendent
>nation
> for being Novaroman. IMHO. The same discrimination, only the
>discriminating
> feature is different (not race or ethnnicity but income).
> Even 1$ per annum tax will be discriminating. Cos someone can have no
> incomes at all (unemployed people etc.). Shall I hear that NR do notneed
> such people being citizens? >>
>
>Oh c'mon! Look...NR is not a Utopia! It is not discrimination to ask that
>all citizens contribute to the growth and development of NR. What is
>discrimination is the notion that the few should carry the entire weight.
>
>Furthermore, citizenship in NR is voluntary. No one forced anyone to
>become
>a citizen and no one will force anyone to leave or stay. If someone can't
>even afford $1.00 a month but can afford to pay for internet access to
>argue
>about it, then honey...I don't know what to say to that!
>
><<There always have been plebs in Rome, you know...;-) They paid no taxes,
>AFAIK. The _state_, Rome herself, paid for theirs bread and spectacles,
>IIRC.>>
>
>Which again brings me to my argument of doing away with class distinctions
>in
>NR since it serves no purpose other than historiocity. But that's another
>debate.
>
>--Dexippus
>
>
>
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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:57:38 YEKT

Salve Dexippus,

>Oh c'mon! Look...NR is not a Utopia! It is not discrimination to ask that
>all citizens contribute to the growth and development of NR. What is
>discrimination is the notion that the few should carry the entire weight.

Yes, you right. This is a discrimination... too;-)

>Furthermore, citizenship in NR is voluntary. No one forced anyone to
>become
>a citizen and no one will force anyone to leave or stay.

Of course it is voluntary. But that I was talking about was would taxation
encourage new potential (easterneuropean) citizens to enter NR?
And not only easterneuropeans. I imagine very well people visiting NR
website at first time, and they are probably interested in Ancient Rome, and
all that stuff, but what do they see... The membership is for money now! And
they CAN think (no! I personally don't think that!;-)): "Aha, another one
totalitarian relegious sect. I know, all threy want is my money! Now threy
are saying it's only 15$ per year, and yesterday they will want more. I know
that kind of organizations! Gotta get out of here!" And they can quit!
Brr... hope I'm not gonna dream this nightmare tonight;-)

Or someone could think this is a kind of internet money pyramide, and also
quit.

If someone can't
>even afford $1.00 a month but can afford to pay for internet access to
>argue
>about it, then honey...I don't know what to say to that!

Well, personally I can of course afford $1.00 a month. But as I have already
said, who knows the others... And I still manage not to pay for internet
access - using it at work.;-)

Anyway, the idea that NR has to have more than 600$ per year for developping
herself is GOOD. May I ask, that are NR's expenses and incomes know. I know
of internet fee, expenses for The Eagle and subsciption payments for it.
What else? I'm not sure, if I saw the 2000 budjet in this list... Sorry...

Well, anyway goodbye, it's already late evening here in Sarmatia, and all
Romans gotta go to bed;-) Sleep well, Sarmatia!;-)

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

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Subject:	NR taxes
From:	Diana Aventina <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114176113185158237169037163101249089000144044067209130152" >diana_aventina@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:03:05 -0800 (PST)

> This (paing money for being Novaroman) POSSIBLY
> would LOOK the same as if
> one need to be caucasian (white) or to belong
> to a Roman-descendent nation
> for being Novaroman. IMHO.

You seem to have taken a BIG step to go from Nova
Roma asking for tax money to POSSIBLY suggesting
that this is discrimination.

> Cos someone can have no > incomes at all
(unemployed people etc.).
Then if they are unemployed, how will they be
paying for their computer and internet time?

I don't think that the tax should be a huge
amount, but Nova Roma like any other organization
needs money to run.

Bright Blessings,
Diana


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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:51:55 EST

In a message dated 1/27/00 11:00:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< Well, personally I can of course afford $1.00 a month. But as I have
already
said, who knows the others... And I still manage not to pay for internet
access - using it at work.;-) >>

Ah...so you steal internet access from work in order to argue about $1.00 per
month tax?

TAX 'EM TILL IT HURTS!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:04:48 EST

Salvete Senatus et Populsque Romana (I think thats right)

<< Please bear in mind it was for only 15.00 a year and it
included the Eagle. >>

This certainly does have the entire body of Nova Roma in a debate, so
I've decided to put my two cents in. Perhaps some basis taken from other
[somewhat] simmilar organizations to Nova Roma. Both the National Junior
Classical League and the American Junior Classical League (divided like the
National and American Baseballs Leagues) charge $10 every year as dues, and
then charge participation fees for any of several activities that go on every
year such as Fall Forum, Toga Parties (LoL), and a 3 day summer camp.
However the National and American Classical Leagues are very much larger
(so far) than Nova Roma, as I remember around 500 participants for the
Metro-Atlanta Fall Forum Alone. But Nova Roma does have many more goals set
ahead for it. I would definately be in favor of a "small" yearly tax, and
perhaps fees could be installed for Nova Roma activities that could be used
to fund the activity itself, and keep a little for the Tresury.

Salvete!

Iulius Thompsonus

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	Matt Hu--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:48:34 -0600 (CST)

> << This (paing money for being Novaroman) POSSIBLY would LOOK the same as if
> one need to be caucasian (white) or to belong to a Roman-descendent nation
> for being Novaroman. IMHO. The same discrimination, only the discriminating
> feature is different (not race or ethnnicity but income).
> Even 1$ per annum tax will be discriminating.

This is not descrimination. This is simply the expectation that those that
receive value by being citizens should be willing to pay for it.

It is not discrimination when a theatre owner refuses to let in someone
who can't or won't pay for a ticket. It is not discrimination when
a fast-food place withholds cheeseburgers from those who can't pay.

If Nova Roma is ever to accomplish anything at all, it's going to need
money. Waivers should be granted for citizens within those countries
where incomes are comparitively low, but most of us here can easily
afford $20-$30 per year.

M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) | "They that give up essential liberty
konoko Network Consulting | to obtain a little temporary safety
Graveyards of Chicago: | deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:59:15 EST

Salvete!

Perhaps I have a suggestion:
If we, for one year, asked for donations of whatever they want to
pay. Then after a year, the patricians (or some other demographic group, I
don't know :) can pay taxes for that year. Then by that time it may be well
established that Nova Roma citizenship requires a tax of $X a month. Then
the taxation can be extended to every citizen. Thank you.


For the Senate and the Roman People!
Drusus Cornelius Claudius

Subject:	Read my lips..
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:39:36 EST

Salvete omnes!

I feel the need to say something here with regard to taxes because, funny
enough, in my real life job I work for the Ministry for Finance, which is
above all responsible for the collection of taxes....

I do not think that taxes would be the best idea for NR. Here is my personal
view on the subject:

1.) As some have pointed out already, it would do more to deter, than to
attract new citizens, if you threaten them with taxes. At least for now we
would be foolish, to lay something as ugly-sounding as "taxes" in the way of
our republic.

2.) I do not think that an online community like NR would have more security
in planning its budget with "taxes" than it would have with "donations". The
truth is, unlike my Ministry here in Austria (hopefully soon to be a province
as well!) NR does not really have the means to force those who do not want to
pay to hand over their credit cards.

3.) You will have problems with a worldwide community to find a
progression-system which would be fair to ALL the citizens around the world
AND which would be in a reasonable relation to the transaction costs involved
AND would not be terribly complicated (our tax code is a maze you would not
believe and do not tell me about the US tax code, I know it, and it is SIMPLE
compared to ours...)

4.) Solution: Maybe you could introduce a donation system which could be
linked to the century points. You indicate a donation, the amount of which
would be affordable in all countries to people having access to the internet
(say 15$) and which would give you, say 10 century points.
As for planning: those who have payed in the past, will probably pay in the
future as well. and if you want to give more, well you certainly can (but you
will only get your 10 century points).
Advantages: you do not have to change the incorporation papers.
you do not have taxes scaring new citzens away
people have a way of showing their commitment and get an
immediate reward
Disadvantages: maybe not as predictable as taxes but only maybe.....

Well, just a few quick thoughts...

Marcus Marcius Rex
Cives NR

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:44:55 EST

Why should I, as a Patrician, have to pay taxes for one year if there is no
real class distinction in NR? Either everyone pays a tax, or no one pays a
tax.

It seems like the only ones crying discrimination are the discriminators!

--Dexippus

In a message dated 1/27/00 4:05:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132212044112194233114149109101130130239146031196234130152150" >DrususCornelius@--------</--------; writes:

<< Perhaps I have a suggestion:
If we, for one year, asked for donations of whatever they want to
pay. Then after a year, the patricians (or some other demographic group, I
don't know :) can pay taxes for that year. Then by that time it may be well
established that Nova Roma citizenship requires a tax of $X a month. Then
the taxation can be extended to every citizen. >>



<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>

Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:57:36 US/Central

Salvete

>         If we, for one year, asked for donations of whatever they want to
> pay.  Then after a year, the patricians (or some other demographic group, I
> don't know :) can pay taxes for that year.  Then by that time it may be well
> established that Nova Roma citizenship requires a tax of $X a month.  Then
> the taxation can be extended to every citizen.

Why bother with this sort of staged implementation of taxation? We've already
operated under a policy of voluntary contributions for over a year now. Taxing
a single demographic group is inordinately inequitable. Making this group the
patricians compounds the error, as, on the whole, they have already put the
most work and money into the Republic. Finally, most of the arguments against
taxation resort primarily to claiming that it will chase away potential
citizens, who would neither know of the phased history of taxation, nor would
they be likely to care.

If we're going to have a tax, we ought to levy it equally to all citizens at
once. The best idea I've seen so far is to have the various provincia
establish, with the Senate's approval, their own reasonable and fair taxes,
with a portion of those taxes being retained within the province and a portion
going to the treasury. There are issues to overcome with this proposal, such
as how to transfer money across international borders (a problem with any tax,
actually), but it seems likely to produce the most equitable taxes.

If we don't use the provincial method, then I suggest a method by which the
Senate requires different taxes from each province, based on advice from the
provincial praetors. A flat tax always benefits the rich more. (Of couse, we
certainly do *not* want to use the ancient method of tax farming!)

Of course, the preceding assumes that a tax is desirable for Nova Roma at this
time. Personally, I'm still undecided on the issue, but I'm leaning heavily
toward the 'levy a tax sooner than later' camp. The Republic will certainly
need to levy a tax eventually. Temples and the like don't run themselves. The
main question is how soon we want to start saving for our grander ambitions.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus





<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>

Subject:	Re: Read my lips..
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:41:17 US/Central

Salvete

> 1.) As some have pointed out already, it would do more to deter, than to
> attract new citizens, if you threaten them with taxes. At least for now we
> would be foolish, to lay something as ugly-sounding as "taxes" in the way of
> our republic.

I must admit, the mention of taxes on the original Nova Roma Web site gave me
pause before I joined. That mention prompted me to correspond with Germanicus
briefly before deciding to become a citizen, in an effort to learn what,
exactly, was required of citizens. Perhaps a statement regarding the rationale
behind the taxes, showing that they are reasonable, might help.

> 2.) I do not think that an online community like NR would have more security
> in planning its budget with "taxes" than it would have with "donations". The
> truth is, unlike my Ministry here in Austria (hopefully soon to be a province
> as well!) NR does not really have the means to force those who do not want to
> pay to hand over their credit cards.

No, but we can revoke their citizenship and ban them from this and the other e-
mail lists.

> 3.) You will have problems with a worldwide community to find a
> progression-system which would be fair to ALL the citizens around the world
> AND which would be in a reasonable relation to the transaction costs involved
> AND would not be terribly complicated (our tax code is a maze you would not
> believe and do not tell me about the US tax code, I know it, and it is SIMPLE
> compared to ours...)

This seems to me to be the most telling argument against taxes. For a short
time, there was some conversation regarding transaction costs, and though we
had some solutions presented regarding Britannia, nobody seemed to know enough
about the topic to speak authoritatively on the subject. It is certainly true
that tax systems can become incredibly complex in an effort to make them
equitable. However, at least in the foreseeable future, Nova Roma's taxes are
likely to be small enough to be universally affordable, and we will not have to
resort to such complexity. Regardless, the above questions will have to be
settled before a system of taxation can be instituted.

> 4.) Solution: Maybe you could introduce a donation system which could be
> linked to the century points. You indicate a donation, the amount of which
> would be affordable in all countries to people having access to the internet
> (say 15$) and which would give you, say 10 century points.

This is not a bad idea, and something similar has been floated before. We
would have to guard against a system by which one could buy more than a minor
boost in centurial standing, though.

Also, it never fails to amaze me how fixated people seem to be on the centurial
point system. All it determines is which century one votes in, in only one of
three comitia. With as few citizens as we have currently, which century one
votes in is pretty much as good as any other. I suppose the fascination is due
to the fact that Nova Roma has very few other institutional rewards.

In any case, excellent points, and reasonable suggestions, M Marcius.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:50:10 EST

Salvete!

I think it is obvious why we, as Patricians, should pay more taxes!
We have more century points, and thus far more influence in Nova Roma's
government. Besides the Patrician class, it seems to me, should be more
eager to contribute for the same reason which I have mentioned above. I will
declare right now, that I will pay whatever tax (or fee, or due, or donation,
whatever) our Republic deems necessary.
If we all truly believe that Our Great Republic: Roman virtue, Roman
religion, and Roman government would benefit society as we say we do when we
join, then it seems only natural to me that we should have absolutely no
qualms about paying such a small sum in order to achieve that grand purpose.
Please, do not allow monetary selfishness prevent us (i.e. those who can
afford even a very small amount) from marching forward in the grand duty of
reinstilling Ancient Roman virtue into the hearts and mind of the people of
the future!
I will declare now that, whether or not a tax is levied on The
People, I will donate at least $25 dollars anually to our cause, and I hope
that you all will do the same for the future of the world. Thank you.

For the Senate and the Roman People!
Drusus Cornelius Claudius

p.s. I've got high hopes, huh?

Subject:	Re: Re: What's Brewing?2
From:	Megas-Rob--------n <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:34:24 -0600

Ave Vado, et Salvete Omnes,

Venator scripsit,

> Nicolaus Moravius wrote
>
> Now, Venator, tell me: what grape variety or varieties are you using for the
> Falernian? And at what stage of development is it?
> >
> Valete bene,
>
> Vado.
>

In this initial experiment (2 gallons - 8 liters) I used 75% Zinfandel
and 25% Merlot, with some added grape tannin. During the primary
fermentation I added a little extra honey syrup every couple of days to
try and push the alcohol level up. I used a "Port" yeast, as this is
supposed to have a good alcohol tolerance, but leave some residual
sweetness. i did use modern yeast nutrients to try and encourage the
yeast to do their business quicker. I just opened a bottle (it's about
a year old) it is definitely a young wine. The body is much like a
Burgandy style red wine, not quite the "Heat" the Ancient anecdotes
mention. So, I think I've just made a good, hearty red wine in this
first attempt. I've done some further reading, and think I may get a
better result with a blend of Zinfandel, Pinot Noir and raisins, with a
touch of Indian Cinnamon (which is peppery, as opposed to South American
Cinnamon which is sweet). I'll use the Port yeast again, plus using the
honey syrup feedings to push up the alcohol level.

I'll keep the New City posted.

In Amicus Venator

Subject:	Senate Item #5
From:	Diana Aventina <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114176113185158237169037163101249089000144044067209130152" >diana_aventina@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:46:14 -0800 (PST)

Hi Dexippus and others,
I am firmly behind :-) Dexippus in this issue.
I really find it hard to believe that people
don't want to pay anything to support Nova Roma.
It is great idea to have taxes (membership
fees--call it what you will--) and then receive
the Eagle too.
1)The people who are at work and use their work
computer to converse with Nova Romans have a job
and therefore can cough up the price of about 2
coffees per month to support Nova Roma.

2)If the person is unemployed and yet can manage
to afford the internet, they can afford $1.50 per
month as well.
3)If the person is starving to death and needs to
sell their computer in order to feed his/her
family, then I will personally pay for their
membership (but possibly they would be better off
if I sent them 15 USD worth of spaghetti or
rice....

Bright Blessings,
Diana
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
<a href="http://im.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://im.yahoo.com</a>

Subject:	Re: NR taxes
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:57:00 -0800

"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" wrote:

> From: "A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
>
> Salve carissima Diana Aventina,
>
> >You seem to have taken a BIG step to go from Nova
> >Roma asking for tax money to POSSIBLY suggesting
> >that this is discrimination.
>
> I NEED NO AND WILL NEVER NEED A CENT FROM NOVA ROMA.
>
> >I don't think that the tax should be a huge
> >amount, but Nova Roma like any other organization
> >needs money to run.
>
> I agree with this. But may be some tax preveleges / advantages for those
> with small incomes and possibly new members?
>

Salve.

Again, I am reposting, with the previous proposed tax Legislation, that I am
looking for and will repost as soon as I find it. It listed exemptions and a
moratorium of one year for new civies. :) So that issue, with the old proposed
legislation already answers that. :) Next issue please... ;)

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

>
> AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
> PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE
>
> LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST
>
> VALETE IN PACE
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:02:06 -0800

"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" wrote:

> From: "A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
>
> Salve Iuli Thompsone!
>
> Perhaps some basis taken from other
> >[somewhat] simmilar organizations to Nova Roma. Both the National Junior
> >Classical League and the American Junior Classical League (divided like the
> >National and American Baseballs Leagues) charge $10 every year as dues, and
> >then charge participation fees for any of several activities that go on
> >every
> >year such as Fall Forum, Toga Parties (LoL), and a 3 day summer camp.
>
> Both these organizations are American, AFAICS. NR is tending to be more
> international than just American, is she? If so, the difference of life
> levels in different regions should probably be taken into account.
>

Yes. your right. Which is why on the old proposed tax legislation. Most or all
dues collected would stay in the Continent they were collected in. :)

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

>
> AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
> PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE
>
> LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST
>
> VALETE IN PACE
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	[Fwd: Proposed Legislation]
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:11:56 -0800

Salvete Civies! The Following proposed legislation was brought before the
Senate of Nova Roma on April 5, 1999. This legislation was created by Q.
Fabius Maximus, M. Municius Audens and myself.

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave Conscript Fathers,
>
> We bring this legislation before you to help secure the State by
> bringing in a secure and permanent source of revenue. This legislation
> has been created by Audens, Q.Fabius and myself. If you have any
> questions, please feel free to contact me.
> ______________________
>
> Resolved, the fledging Republic of New Rome needs working funds to carry
>
> out its mission. Resolved, said funds have not been forthcoming.
> Resolved the best way to have this burden applied equally amongst its
> citizens is to implement a fair and reasonable tax. Resolved, Nova Roma
>
> has received contributions but it is insufficent to meet our long term
> goals and objectives.Resolved, since that lack of such funds make Rome's
> survival problematical, therefore we propose the following legislation
> to be implemented fully by the end of this fiscal year:
>
> 1. An annual head tax of fifteen dollars American be levied on all
> current and future members of Nova Roma.
>
> 2. Said money would be due after the instillation of new Magistrates,
> First Janus so that monies would be available to form the fiscal
> budget. This tax could a sent to Rome's Capital during period of
> December 1st-to the 19th.
>
> 3. All citizens would be liable for this tax. (See Exemptions below)
>
> 4. Failure to pay tax would result in the following measures will be
> implemented:
> A. Inability to run or to hold office in New Rome.
> B. Delinquent citizen would be considered inactive, with no say in New
> Rome's government, and policies. Citizen would be kept on the rolls of
> citizens. Citizen could become active again by paying the tax.
> C. After two consecutive years the delinquent citizen would be dropped
> from the rolls. In order to rejoin as a citizen, said delinquent would
> have to pay year's tax in advance. No back taxes would be assessed.
>
> 5) An additional benefit of paying the tax will include a subscription
> to the Eagle. The Eagle publication will be a bi-monthly publication
> that will keep all paying citizens informed of special events, articles
> and information that is Roman or Nova Roman related.
>
> 6) All monies collected in areas outside of the United States will stay
> within that continent that they were collected. This will be under the
> control of a Quaestor, who is under the
> admistrative control of a Consul. Those monies will be used to fund NR
> expansion within said territory.
>
> Exemptions:
> 1) No Female Citizen that has given birth would be assessed a tax till
> said child turns four years of age. And she would be exempt while
> Pregnant with said child. This exemption would also go for the fathers
> of children as well.
> 2) Since Rome needs scholars, Students in Colleges, or Universities,
> that are could claim hardship and pay an abbreviated tax of ten
> dollars American.
> 3) Citizens could also claim extreme hardship. Citizens claiming
> extreme hardship would also pay an abbreviated tax of ten dollars
> American. Extreme Hardship in this case would be an annual income under
>
> Seven thousand dollars American.
> 4) Newly joined first time citizens receive a year's Lacuna from taxes.
> 5) All religious leaders of Nova Roma, that are sanctioned by the State
> shall be exempt from Taxes.
>
> Benefits.
> Roman citizens in good standing receive the following benefits:
> A. Ability to run and hold office.
> B. Receive the New Rome newsletter.
> C. Feeling of personal satisfaction for helping NR achieve its
> Micronationan Mission of a Homeland.
> D. Help NR recruit more citizens through the establishment of NR
> services so that we will be able to foster growth and recognition in the
>
> global community.
>
> ___________________
>
> Thank you for your time and effort in going over this legislation.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla
> Praetor Urbanus