Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:21:09 EST

In a message dated 1/27/00 11:51:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132212044112194233114149109101130130239146031196234130152150" >DrususCornelius@--------</--------; writes:

<< I think it is obvious why we, as Patricians, should pay more taxes!
We have more century points, and thus far more influence in Nova Roma's
government. Besides the Patrician class, it seems to me, should be more
eager to contribute for the same reason which I have mentioned above. I
will
declare right now, that I will pay whatever tax (or fee, or due, or
donation,
whatever) our Republic deems necessary. >>

Great! You can pay my tax too while your at it!

Patricians do not have any citizenship advantage than plebians do in NR. And
to insinuate that one should pay a higher tax because he or she was amongst
the first to join NR and thus be honored by having a Patrician Gens is
ludicrous and discriminatory.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: NR taxes
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:49:33 YEKT

Salve carissima Diana Aventina,

>You seem to have taken a BIG step to go from Nova
>Roma asking for tax money to POSSIBLY suggesting
>that this is discrimination.

I NEED NO AND WILL NEVER NEED A CENT FROM NOVA ROMA.

>I don't think that the tax should be a huge
>amount, but Nova Roma like any other organization
>needs money to run.

I agree with this. But may be some tax preveleges / advantages for those
with small incomes and possibly new members?

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:55:40 YEKT

Salve Dexippus,

>Ah...so you steal internet access from work in order to argue about $1.00
>per
>month tax?

I STEAL NOTHING. Please think a little than writing and declaring publically
that someone you even never meet is a thief. I use internet and a computer
of my company with a permission, of course. This is *my* company. Perhaps
your phrase worth presenting some apologies. I just wonder what others think
about such insults being used here in NR.

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:00:46 YEKT

Salve Iuli Thompsone!

Perhaps some basis taken from other
>[somewhat] simmilar organizations to Nova Roma. Both the National Junior
>Classical League and the American Junior Classical League (divided like the
>National and American Baseballs Leagues) charge $10 every year as dues, and
>then charge participation fees for any of several activities that go on
>every
>year such as Fall Forum, Toga Parties (LoL), and a 3 day summer camp.

Both these organizations are American, AFAICS. NR is tending to be more
international than just American, is she? If so, the difference of life
levels in different regions should probably be taken into account.

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:08:48 YEKT

Salve OCTAVI GERMANICE!

This is not descrimination. This is simply the expectation that those that
>receive value by being citizens should be willing to pay for it.

Please, enlight me that values I for example being citizen have already
received or will receive in future? The possibility ti talk to you guys
certainly but I was this was free value...;-)

>It is not discrimination when a theatre owner refuses to let in someone
>who can't or won't pay for a ticket. It is not discrimination when
>a fast-food place withholds cheeseburgers from those who can't pay.

Is NR indeed the same as a bar or a fast-food place? If so, I was mistaken
in understanding the purposes of Her. I thought that there were no
profits-making among NR purposes. I thought NR was not a commercial
enterprise, like bars and fast-food places.

>If Nova Roma is ever to accomplish anything at all, it's going to need
>money. Waivers should be granted for citizens within those countries
>where incomes are comparitively low, but most of us here can easily
>afford $20-$30 per year.

Very right.

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:13:47 YEKT

Salve Corneli Claudi!

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132212044112194233114149109101130130239146031196234130152150" >DrususCornelius@--------</--------;
>
>Salvete!
>
> Perhaps I have a suggestion:
> If we, for one year, asked for donations of whatever they want to
>pay. Then after a year, the patricians (or some other demographic group, I
>don't know :) can pay taxes for that year. Then by that time it may be
>well
>established that Nova Roma citizenship requires a tax of $X a month. Then
>the taxation can be extended to every citizen. Thank you.
>
Rather a good plan AFAICS! Let this falks on the Hill to do it first!
Otherwise they can easily leave a patrician order and join any plebeian
gens;-) On must pay for a right of being an 'aristocrat' or 'noble' (this
was just a try to joke;-))

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	hadji <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:47:11 +0100

Salve Dexipe et alii

<<I'm sorry, but I didn't think we had citizens in Somalia or other
ravishly poor countries. If they can afford internet access, I'm sure
they can afford the equivalent of US $1.00 a month.>>

RESPONDEO
We have had no citizens from Somalia at the moment, but our regulas may
count that one day even Somalian will apply for citizenship. As for
eastern Europe it is not so different than Somalia. We have got here a
little bit higher incomes, but also the life costs are much larger
(payments for heating, clothes, transport etc etc). So it means quite
often that 90% peoples here live in negative financial balance and have
even no cent for luxories as membership in any even interesting clubs.
Just takes me as example. My monthly salary is lawer than monthly flat
rent I live. So I need to take some extra jobs to cover the basic life
needs. And that is with 90 to 95% of the population here. I am not
ashamed to share you all that because that is reality. And my case is
from the good ones. It is not about me as I will pay this 15 or 25$ (it
is at least funny amount). Simply I do not want to be a Praetor of a
province without citizens.

<<Mafias? Oh c'mon! If it is a question of deriving direct benefit
from such a tax, then again I propose that Provinces levie a tax on
their citizens. This would then prove to be fair for both tax
denomination and derived>>

RESPONDEO
I just wanted to share you that only east europeans mafiots or high
politicians could allow themselvs to pay membership taxes to
organizations as Nova Roma. All the others consider as ... "hm NOva
Roma is interesting, it is good, but it is better to byu a new shirt I
had planned for the last year".

Bene vale

Alexander Probus


Subject:	Re: Read my lips..
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:05:20 YEKT

Slave Marce Marci Rex (and also a Vizantinian salut;-))! Etiam slavete alii,

There is a lot of god things in this letter! Listen to that a professional
says;-)!

>I do not think that taxes would be the best idea for NR. Here is my
>personal
>view on the subject:
>
>1.) As some have pointed out already, it would do more to deter, than to
>attract new citizens, if you threaten them with taxes. At least for now we
>would be foolish, to lay something as ugly-sounding as "taxes" in the way
>of
>our republic.

This is exactly that I tried to say for already 2 days! And fee or due
sounds as bad as tax, IMHO.

>3.) You will have problems with a worldwide community to find a
>progression-system which would be fair to ALL the citizens around the world
>AND which would be in a reasonable relation to the transaction costs
>involved
>AND would not be terribly complicated (our tax code is a maze you would not
>believe and do not tell me about the US tax code, I know it, and it is
>SIMPLE
>compared to ours...)

Yes! "Transaction costs"! I am not sure at all that it is possible (for a
person not an enterprise) to send money from Russia abroad. Esp. from such a
small town as my own. Sending money (ANY sum) from Russia abroad is a VERY
complicated matter, because it is consedered as a 'export of capital' by the
Government. You cannot even imagine how complicated. The enterprises even
have to receive special licences for that from the Central Bank and it's
VERY difficult to get such a paper. What am I supposed to write as a
"destination of the payment" sending money? "A tax to the New Rome"? ;-) The
whole bank would lough all the day! You don't know our banks and our Central
Bank policy in this...
Secondly, I'm not sure the bank at all would operate with such a small
amount (for bank! Not for normal citizens...) like 15$. Just because indeed
*transaction costs* would be probably even more than 15$ for any payment
made.
Payment by credit cards? What's this?;-)) If seriously, I of course know
that it is, but there is no wide credit cards systems in Sarmatian
province... At least I don't know any persons with credit cards which would
allow abroad payments made in my town.

As for complicated tax systems, you probably didn't study Russia's one!;-)

>4.) Solution: Maybe you could introduce a donation system which could be
>linked to the century points. You indicate a donation, the amount of which
>would be affordable in all countries to people having access to the
>internet
>(say 15$) and which would give you, say 10 century points.
>As for planning: those who have payed in the past, will probably pay in the
>future as well. and if you want to give more, well you certainly can (but
>you
>will only get your 10 century points).
>Advantages: you do not have to change the incorporation papers.
> you do not have taxes scaring new citzens away
> people have a way of showing their commitment and get
>an
> immediate reward
>Disadvantages: maybe not as predictable as taxes but only maybe.....

Personally I like it very much.

Thnaks Marci Rex for financist's opinion and just for proposing this!

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:16:04 YEKT

Car Dexippe,

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
>Why should I, as a Patrician, have to pay taxes for one year if there is no
>real class distinction in NR?

Is it? I'd like to ask then, has anyone an information how many of NR's high
magistarates was earleir and are now Patricians? What was the proportion
between Patricians and Plebeians among consuls, censors, praetors and
quaestors? And if compared with total population's proportions? Perhaps
there *is* "real class distinction in NR" if the proportion ampng high
magistrates is/was in the past/ say 10:1 in favour to Patricians, I don't
know...

I'm just courious.

Either everyone pays a tax, or no one pays a
>tax.

I'd prefer noone...;-)

>It seems like the only ones crying discrimination are the discriminators!

If seriously, this would be descriminating if only patricians would pay. BUT
ONE CAN ALWAYS LEAVE THE ORDER AND BECOME A PLEBEIAN IF ONE DONT WANNA
PAY!!! And this would be fair, at least noone will be excluded for a lack of
money. If the bigges donators (and/or people with biggest century points'
accounts) would be patricians, not the members of the oldest gens, this
would IMHO be much more fair! They deserve this honor!

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:38:06 YEKT

Salve Labiene Fortunate,

>If we're going to have a tax, we ought to levy it equally to all citizens
>at
>once.

This is not fair, I'm tried to repeat it again and again for altready 2
days... Is it fair, than someone pays a tax which equals a price of 2 cups
of coffe for him (1-1.2$$?), and another one pays THE SAME SUM of the tax
but it equals his 1-3 days family budjet for him?

The best idea I've seen so far is to have the various provincia
>establish, with the Senate's approval, their own reasonable and fair taxes,
>with a portion of those taxes being retained within the province and a
>portion
>going to the treasury. There are issues to overcome with this proposal,
>such
>as how to transfer money across international borders (a problem with any
>tax,
>actually), but it seems likely to produce the most equitable taxes.

This is the best idea I've seen so far too. But AFAIK the legislation
proposed don't include such a causula (?).

>If we don't use the provincial method, then I suggest a method by which the
>Senate requires different taxes from each province, based on advice from
>the
>provincial praetors. A flat tax always benefits the rich more. (Of couse,
>we
>certainly do *not* want to use the ancient method of tax farming!)

This is good either!

>Of course, the preceding assumes that a tax is desirable for Nova Roma at
>this
>time.

Perhaps some provinciae, as the very new Provincia Sarmatia are not yet
ready for a taxes... The USA and some European provinciae of course are
ready;-) But they are much older, richer, and have much bigger
population...;-) Therefore a provincial principle is desireable IMHO but
current bill lacks it, only a "continental" one (am I wrong?;-)) But
seemingly Britannia and Sarmatia are on one continent but that about life
levels in UK and Russia and Eastern Europe. Are they the same?

Temples and the like don't run themselves. The
>main question is how soon we want to start saving for our grander
>ambitions.

ooops! I'm terribly sorry, but... another one item apears. "Temples"? But I
was said NR is not a pagan religious organization, and there are many
christians here, and perhaps some other faiths are present and even
atheists... So, would it be correct theirs taxes are spent for pagan
temples? And even in another part of the world, may be. Where they will
never be at all...
No any insults to the Rome's Gods, please don't get me wrong! But the
question still exists - why non-pagans (together with pagans) should pay for
pagan temples?

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Subject:	Re: Re: Read my lips..
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:01:29 YEKT

Salvete,

&g--------om: &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------fon--------r>
NR does not really have the means to force those who do not want to
> > pay to hand over their credit cards.
>
>No, but we can revoke their citizenship and ban them from this and the
>other e-
>mail lists.

Sure you can. But is it a good enough way to treat like-minded people, our
spiritul brothers in fact, loving Rome, but having no much finances for
affording such a luxory ;-) like membership in NR?

> > 3.) You will have problems with a worldwide community to find a
> > progression-system which would be fair to ALL the citizens around the
>world
> > AND which would be in a reasonable relation to the transaction costs
>involved
> > AND would not be terribly complicated (our tax code is a maze you would
>not
> > believe and do not tell me about the US tax code, I know it, and it is
>SIMPLE
> > compared to ours...)
>
However, at least in the foreseeable future, Nova Roma's taxes are
>likely to be small enough to be universally affordable,

Again, please bear in mind, that terms "small enough" and "universally
affordable" are relative terms. know my provincia's realities and I know
that $15 is neither "small enough" nor "universally affordable" sum in
Sarmatia (what about Pannonia, Alexandre?) My granny's monthly income
(pension) is $17,2.

> > 4.) Solution: Maybe you could introduce a donation system which could be
> > linked to the century points. You indicate a donation, the amount of
>which
> > would be affordable in all countries to people having access to the
>internet
> > (say 15$) and which would give you, say 10 century points.
>
>This is not a bad idea, and something similar has been floated before. We
>would have to guard against a system by which one could buy more than a
>minor
>boost in centurial standing, though.

Is it better to buy citizenship, Labiene Fortunate? Let's called things by
their names. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BUYING ROMAN CITIZENSHIP. IS THIS SOUND OK
TO YOU? Buying a right of being Novaroman? Money don't smell? It's better to
sell a right of being a patrician, at least the poorest would never be
cancelled theirs citizenship because of money!
I still believe that ones who receive more from citizenship should pay more
than one who as me lives somewhere between Europe and Asia, in snowed Ural
mountains and having nearest Novaroman in 2,5 thousand km!

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:03:58 YEKT

Salve Druse Corneli Claudi!

I'm totally with you in this! Good for you! ;-)

>Salvete!
>
> I think it is obvious why we, as Patricians, should pay more
>taxes!
>We have more century points, and thus far more influence in Nova Roma's
>government. Besides the Patrician class, it seems to me, should be more
>eager to contribute for the same reason which I have mentioned above. I
>will
>declare right now, that I will pay whatever tax (or fee, or due, or
>donation,
>whatever) our Republic deems necessary.
> If we all truly believe that Our Great Republic: Roman virtue,
>Roman
>religion, and Roman government would benefit society as we say we do when
>we
>join, then it seems only natural to me that we should have absolutely no
>qualms about paying such a small sum in order to achieve that grand
>purpose.
>Please, do not allow monetary selfishness prevent us (i.e. those who can
>afford even a very small amount) from marching forward in the grand duty of
>reinstilling Ancient Roman virtue into the hearts and mind of the people of
>the future!
> I will declare now that, whether or not a tax is levied on The
>People, I will donate at least $25 dollars anually to our cause, and I hope
>that you all will do the same for the future of the world. Thank
>you.
>
>For the Senate and the Roman People!
>Drusus Cornelius Claudius
>
>p.s. I've got high hopes, huh?
>

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:04:02 -0800

"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" wrote:

> From: "A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
>
> Car Dexippe,
>
> >From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
> >
> >Why should I, as a Patrician, have to pay taxes for one year if there is no
> >real class distinction in NR?
>
> Is it? I'd like to ask then, has anyone an information how many of NR's high
> magistarates was earleir and are now Patricians? What was the proportion
> between Patricians and Plebeians among consuls, censors, praetors and
> quaestors? And if compared with total population's proportions? Perhaps
> there *is* "real class distinction in NR" if the proportion ampng high
> magistrates is/was in the past/ say 10:1 in favour to Patricians, I don't
> know...
>

Salve, Just to let you know the first 30 Gens that signed up for Nova Roma had
the choice to become Patrician or Plebian. Most became Patrician. This was the
case til we got 30 Gens in the Patrician Slot. So in essence, all of us
Patricians were co-founders helping to establish Nova Roma with a firm
foundation of civic involvement. There have been 2 Gens's that were promoted
from Plebian status to the Patrician status. First was the Fabii Gens, headed
by Q. Fabius Maximus. The second was the Municia Gens headed by M. Municus
Audens. So in essence you can say our current Consuls have a solid grounding in
both the Plebian and Patrician aspects of Nova Roma. Both, I believe, were
awarded Patrician status due to their actions on behalf of Nova Roma.

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:23:41 YEKT

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;

>Great! You can pay my tax too while your at it!

Are you indeed capable of proposing this seriously? What about Roman virtues
than? I am ashamed of hearing that phrase of yours.

>Patricians do not have any citizenship advantage than plebians do in NR

Indeed? If so, why not thinking about joining a plebeian arder then, if the
2 orders are completely equal in your opinion. How about honor? The
historical parallels? Again, I wander what is a % of plebeians in Government
and the Senate???

This is not merit and virtue if one was among first in NR (or was adopted by
a gens formed from the persons who was the first). THIS IS NOT, IN MY
OPINION. If one donate more for NR- this IS, and this deserves for making
one a patrician. Making patricians the 1st 30 gens and all the others is not
very fair, IMHO. It's the same as declaring all the americans petricians,
and all the others plebeians - was NR in the beginning purely american
organization? Just bear in mind, how many of patrician gens are not from
USA? How could non-americans in that past time learn about her (NR) in
Europe or Australia e.g. and thus became members and thus patricians? I am
sorry, but such a principle of deividing citizens into peatricians and the
others does not seem fair enough to me. I still think that the people who
donate more money and/or have more cent. points would be more logically
called and considered patricians.
If you say that those who donate more or with bigger centpoints are actually
americans - then why not to chage the rules? Anyway they will not lose their
patricianship, but perhaps some non-americans will got it. The most
honorable/useful citizens should be patricians, not those from the oldest
gentes.

Personally I do not want to be a patrician - just want this (and taxatuion
system) be more fair.

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PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:27:45 -0800

"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" wrote:

> From: "A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
>
> >From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
> >Great! You can pay my tax too while your at it!
>
> Are you indeed capable of proposing this seriously? What about Roman virtues
> than? I am ashamed of hearing that phrase of yours.
>
> >Patricians do not have any citizenship advantage than plebians do in NR
>
> Indeed? If so, why not thinking about joining a plebeian arder then, if the
> 2 orders are completely equal in your opinion. How about honor? The
> historical parallels? Again, I wander what is a % of plebeians in Government
> and the Senate???
>

Salve!

You can easily check that by going to the Current office Holders and then
crosschecking it with the Album Civium that is online. :)

>
> This is not merit and virtue if one was among first in NR (or was adopted by
> a gens formed from the persons who was the first). THIS IS NOT, IN MY
> OPINION. If one donate more for NR- this IS, and this deserves for making
> one a patrician. Making patricians the 1st 30 gens and all the others is not
> very fair, IMHO.

Sulla: I think its fair. We are the ones who mailed in our applications
through the mail, we are the ones who starting working toward advancing Nova
Roma, when there was less than 15, 20, 50, even 100 Citizens. It all starts
somewhere. Besides, as I pointed out Nova Roma has also promoted productive
citizens who start in the Plebian Status to the Patrican Status.

> It's the same as declaring all the americans petricians,
> and all the others plebeians - was NR in the beginning purely american
> organization?

Justify that please. the Internet is Global. You had the same opportunity I
had in finding Nova Roma back in March 1998. :)

> Just bear in mind, how many of patrician gens are not from
> USA? How could non-americans in that past time learn about her (NR) in
> Europe or Australia e.g. and thus became members and thus patricians?

See above. :) And in my other posts.

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:41:03 YEKT

Salve Diana Aventina de nove,

>I really find it hard to believe that people
>don't want to pay anything to support Nova Roma.

What about the newcomers, potential citizens? It would be much harder to
find them here in Vizantinian (Easterneuropean) part of NR with equl taxes
for all established.

>1)The people who are at work and use their work
>computer to converse with Nova Romans have a job
>and therefore can cough up the price of about 2
>coffees per month to support Nova Roma.

I have already wrote that your "2 coffees per month" can be someone's 1 up
to 3 days household expenses...

>2)If the person is unemployed and yet can manage
>to afford the internet, they can afford $1.50 per
>month as well.

Please let me tell you that most people in Sarmatia don't pay for internet
personally and don't have computers at all. Yeah, yeah, I do not have a
computer! People usually use both internet and comps at theirs work or in
Universities (legally, legally, yes! Are not americans or westerneuropeans
using Internet being in the offices at work? You tell me;-)!). Very little
other WWW users here.

>3)If the person is starving to death and needs to
>sell their computer in order to feed his/her
>family, then I will personally pay for their
>membership (but possibly they would be better off
>if I sent them 15 USD worth of spaghetti or
>rice....

Mi carissima, please send these money to your nearest fund for jobless
people, for homeless or so - they can need your spaghetti & rice more. IN
YOUR COUNTRY NOT IN MY. I am indeed sure that no any Sarmatian or european
Novaroman will never ever take a greenbuck from rich uncle Sam or aunt
Diana, no matter. There is no need in such spaghetti and rice here!
(Personally I don't like them both at all;-))

We stil remeber about the Virtues. Sometimes it looks that some guys&gals
from the other side of Atlantics not.
AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:51:50 YEKT

Salve Sulla

and sorry if I was incorrect in this post of mine! Was NR an on-line
community _from the very begining_? With WWW site available?

>Sulla: I think its fair. We are the ones who mailed in our applications
>through the mail, we are the ones who starting working toward advancing
>Nova
>Roma, when there was less than 15, 20, 50, even 100 Citizens. It all
>starts
>somewhere.

It's fair, but not because yoe were the firs who enter, but becuase you did
more, and eork harder and longer for NR. The present Constitution AFAIK
gives patrician status also for those who became/will become members
yesterday/tomorrow e.g. and were/will be adopted by a patrician gens, say in
January 2000 year. I meant that THIS is not very fair - being patrician just
because you are (was born) in a Patrician gens.

> > It's the same as declaring all the americans petricians,
> > and all the others plebeians - was NR in the beginning purely american
> > organization?
>
>Justify that please. the Internet is Global.

Is it? I have read it still is more american/anglophone than global.

You had the same opportunity I
>had in finding Nova Roma back in March 1998. :)

I'm sorry, I had not;-) Had no WWW access at that time yet;-)

Respectfully,

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:56:30 -0800

"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" wrote:

> From: "A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
>
> Salve Sulla
>
> and sorry if I was incorrect in this post of mine! Was NR an on-line
> community _from the very begining_? With WWW site available?
>

Yes in the beginning it was always on the web. However, the Java Scripting
wasnt there to accept online applications. They had to be mailed in snail
mail. I was one of them who mailed in my application. :)

>
> >Sulla: I think its fair. We are the ones who mailed in our applications
> >through the mail, we are the ones who starting working toward advancing
> >Nova
> >Roma, when there was less than 15, 20, 50, even 100 Citizens. It all
> >starts
> >somewhere.
>
> It's fair, but not because yoe were the firs who enter, but becuase you did
> more, and eork harder and longer for NR. The present Constitution AFAIK
> gives patrician status also for those who became/will become members
> yesterday/tomorrow e.g. and were/will be adopted by a patrician gens, say in
> January 2000 year. I meant that THIS is not very fair - being patrician just
> because you are (was born) in a Patrician gens.
>

No, Every Paterfamilias has the right to determine who joins their Gens. They
can accept or refuse applicants. Every applicant has the right to create their
own gens, and to decide for themselves if they want to accept new civies. If
you look at the old Constitution on the Tabularium, it also granted that right
to Paterfamilias. I believe it is fashioned for Pater Protestas (sp.) So it is
in compliance with Ancient Rome.

>
> > > It's the same as declaring all the americans petricians,
> > > and all the others plebeians - was NR in the beginning purely american
> > > organization?
> >
> >Justify that please. the Internet is Global.
>
> Is it? I have read it still is more american/anglophone than global.
>

Yes you are on the Internet, are you not? Diane Aventina is in Belgium, I
believe, Probus is in Slovika? As you can see, the Internet is Global.
However, we all must agree that the language of the world is English, correct,
that is the language of business in today's world. And, yes Most online users
are American, I should know working at Earthlink, where due to our Meger we now
have almost 6 million customers and are the number 2 Internet Service Provider
in the United States.

>
> You had the same opportunity I
> >had in finding Nova Roma back in March 1998. :)
>
> I'm sorry, I had not;-) Had no WWW access at that time yet;-)
>

Thats understandable. But many did. My point was simply that everyone who was
on the Net since March 1998, had an equal opportunity to discover Nova Roma.
Many of our citizens have been active in NR for months prior to applying for
Citizenship. That was their decision, just as it was their decision to chose
their Gens that they wanted to belong too. :)

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

>
> Respectfully,
>
> AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
> PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE
>
> LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST
>
> VALETE IN PACE
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:25:11 YEKT

> > >Sulla: I think its fair. We are the ones who mailed in our
>applications
> > >through the mail, we are the ones who starting working toward advancing
> > >Nova
> > >Roma, when there was less than 15, 20, 50, even 100 Citizens. It all
> > >starts
> > >somewhere.
> >
> > It's fair, but not because yoe were the firs who enter, but becuase you
>did
> > more, and eork harder and longer for NR. The present Constitution AFAIK
> > gives patrician status also for those who became/will become members
> > yesterday/tomorrow e.g. and were/will be adopted by a patrician gens,
>say in
> > January 2000 year. I meant that THIS is not very fair - being patrician
>just
> > because you are (was born) in a Patrician gens.
> >
>
>No, Every Paterfamilias has the right to determine who joins their Gens.
>They
>can accept or refuse applicants. Every applicant has the right to create
>their
>own gens, and to decide for themselves if they want to accept new civies.
>If
>you look at the old Constitution on the Tabularium, it also granted that
>right
>to Paterfamilias. I believe it is fashioned for Pater Protestas (sp.) So
>it is
>in compliance with Ancient Rome.

I know all this. But a Paterfamilias can accept a newcomers of 2000 - that
merits they have to be patricians? Just because the Paterfamilias likes
them? Therefore I think the principle of counting cenpoints or comparing
donations would be more fair... I may be wrong no doubt;-)

> > > > It's the same as declaring all the americans petricians,
> > > > and all the others plebeians - was NR in the beginning purely
>american
> > > > organization?
> > >
> > >Justify that please. the Internet is Global.
> >
> > Is it? I have read it still is more american/anglophone than global.
> >
>
>Yes you are on the Internet, are you not? Diane Aventina is in Belgium, I
>believe, Probus is in Slovika? As you can see, the Internet is Global.

Not really global equally. I was talking about percentage. There are about
1000000 internet users in Sarmatia with 150.000.000 population - how many in
USA?

>However, we all must agree that the language of the world is English,
>correct,
>that is the language of business in today's world.

Yes it is. But does this mean it should also be an official lang of the Rome
(New one;-)). Such trully Roman tongues as Latin, Italian or Interlingua are
possible co-official-langs too, are they?

>Thats understandable. But many did. My point was simply that everyone who
>was
>on the Net since March 1998, had an equal opportunity to discover Nova
>Roma.

Indeed. If he was anglophone. Very little people of Sarmatia are visiting
English part of the WWW. One need to know English rather well for this...
---> I'd like to translate NR's site materials into Russian. But I don't
know how to place them in the web, to html them and all that technical
details. I'm a simple manager not a programmer or engeneer...;-((

>Many of our citizens have been active in NR for months prior to applying
>for
>Citizenship. That was their decision, just as it was their decision to
>chose
>their Gens that they wanted to belong too. :)

Oh yes... if the Album Gentium was on'line in that moment...;-) It was not
than I joined;-) Anyway, it's OK, does not matter;-)

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:29:18 -0800

"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" wrote:

> From: "A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
>
> > > >Sulla: I think its fair. We are the ones who mailed in our
> >applications
> > > >through the mail, we are the ones who starting working toward advancing
> > > >Nova
> > > >Roma, when there was less than 15, 20, 50, even 100 Citizens. It all
> > > >starts
> > > >somewhere.
> > >
> > > It's fair, but not because yoe were the firs who enter, but becuase you
> >did
> > > more, and eork harder and longer for NR. The present Constitution AFAIK
> > > gives patrician status also for those who became/will become members
> > > yesterday/tomorrow e.g. and were/will be adopted by a patrician gens,
> >say in
> > > January 2000 year. I meant that THIS is not very fair - being patrician
> >just
> > > because you are (was born) in a Patrician gens.
> > >
> >
> >No, Every Paterfamilias has the right to determine who joins their Gens.
> >They
> >can accept or refuse applicants. Every applicant has the right to create
> >their
> >own gens, and to decide for themselves if they want to accept new civies.
> >If
> >you look at the old Constitution on the Tabularium, it also granted that
> >right
> >to Paterfamilias. I believe it is fashioned for Pater Protestas (sp.) So
> >it is
> >in compliance with Ancient Rome.
>
> I know all this. But a Paterfamilias can accept a newcomers of 2000 - that
> merits they have to be patricians? Just because the Paterfamilias likes
> them? Therefore I think the principle of counting cenpoints or comparing
> donations would be more fair... I may be wrong no doubt;-)
>

Salve, yes any Paterfamilias, whether Patrician or Plebian has that authority.
:) Its that simple.

>
> > > > > It's the same as declaring all the americans petricians,
> > > > > and all the others plebeians - was NR in the beginning purely
> >american
> > > > > organization?
> > > >
> > > >Justify that please. the Internet is Global.
> > >
> > > Is it? I have read it still is more american/anglophone than global.
> > >
> >
> >Yes you are on the Internet, are you not? Diane Aventina is in Belgium, I
> >believe, Probus is in Slovika? As you can see, the Internet is Global.
>
> Not really global equally. I was talking about percentage. There are about
> 1000000 internet users in Sarmatia with 150.000.000 population - how many in
> USA?
>

Well, equally its different, I used to call Bbs's back in the late 80's and
early 90's. I know there are discrepencies. But again, the world isnt fair.
There are discrepencies in the amount of users. Thats not the fault on our end
nor is it your fault. Its just the way it is. :)

>
> >However, we all must agree that the language of the world is English,
> >correct,
> >that is the language of business in today's world.
>
> Yes it is. But does this mean it should also be an official lang of the Rome
> (New one;-)). Such trully Roman tongues as Latin, Italian or Interlingua are
> possible co-official-langs too, are they?
>

Nova Roma has no official language. I remember when Lucius Equitius, when he
was Preator Urbanus, tried to promulgate that lex. But it didnt work then, and
I dont think it would work now. If you look on the Message board, there are
coversations going on there in Latin. I dont know latin so I asked for a
translation for the Latin impaired.....hehehe :)

>
> >Thats understandable. But many did. My point was simply that everyone who
> >was
> >on the Net since March 1998, had an equal opportunity to discover Nova
> >Roma.
>
> Indeed. If he was anglophone. Very little people of Sarmatia are visiting
> English part of the WWW. One need to know English rather well for this...
> ---> I'd like to translate NR's site materials into Russian. But I don't
> know how to place them in the web, to html them and all that technical
> details. I'm a simple manager not a programmer or engeneer...;-((
>

No not an anglophone, if he/she was an internet user. When I bbs'd I spoke with
people who were online in Poland. Via telnet. So there were people online back
in 91-93 and even today who had access to the Web. The predominate language is
English, but there are programs that I know that can be downloaded at
download.com that will translate (not too good, but better than nothing so far).

You have an excellent idea about translating the site into Russian, I am sure
someone in Nova Roma could assist you in HTML coding and posting it. I know my
Gens member, Cornelius Scriptor, is currently working on a French transaltion
of Nova Roma. :)

>
> >Many of our citizens have been active in NR for months prior to applying
> >for
> >Citizenship. That was their decision, just as it was their decision to
> >chose
> >their Gens that they wanted to belong too. :)
>
> Oh yes... if the Album Gentium was on'line in that moment...;-) It was not
> than I joined;-) Anyway, it's OK, does not matter;-)
>

Thats understandable. Thats why I immediately sent to old one to our webmaster
to put it back up. Its better to have the old one than nothing up at all. :)

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

>
> AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
> PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE
>
> LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST
>
> VALETE IN PACE
>
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Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Proposed Legislation]
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:49:09 YEKT

Thanks a lot Sulla fro forwarding this! Some problems disappeared...

I have only 2 questions. The main is: I still think the possibility of
reducing and possibly even abolishing taxes for poorest provinciae should be
considered. NR (its European part) will never receive much $$$ from here or
Pannonia for example if state that 15$ is a firm value of a tax, it probably
receive nothing at all. Did you studied the Laffer Curve (am I correct in
spelling?) The financists like Marcius Rex from Visbonna know what I am
talking about. The Laffer law says that the treasury can receive MORE
greenbucks ;-) reducing the tax percentage, and receive LESS making taxes
bigger. This is obvious.

Why not give a possibility for local authorities (neighbourgh provinces'
praetors' council) (with an approval of central magistrate certainly) to
determine the exact value of the tax?

I've also wrote about technical difficulties. How the hell one can send
money ($15) from Russia into USA or UK with a destination "NR tax"!!! This
is unbelieveable, I know that I am talking about cos I work in a finance
company! And the transactional expenses - they defenitely will be bigger
than the entire sum of the tax. BTW the same goes for the Eagle - post
expenses from USA will be bigger than 15$, undoubtly.

> > 5) All religious leaders of Nova Roma, that are sanctioned by the State
> > shall be exempt from Taxes.

The 2 question is more for couriosness. Why "religious leaders"? What is the
reason? I have nothing against them, just courious. I know such is a
taxation legislation in USA, and in Russia too BTW, but I have always
wandered why?;-) Are they the poorest of us?;-)

PS Sorry Sulla but if you are from USA, how do you write all these letters?
It's late night now in States I believe... Night work? Lower fees?;-)

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

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Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Proposed Legislation]
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:50:15 YEKT

Thanks a lot Sulla fro forwarding this! Some problems disappeared...

I have only 2 questions. The main is: I still think the possibility of
reducing and possibly even abolishing taxes for poorest provinciae should be
considered. NR (its European part) will never receive much $$$ from here or
Pannonia for example if state that 15$ is a firm value of a tax, it probably
receive nothing at all. Did you studied the Laffer Curve (am I correct in
spelling?) The financists like Marcius Rex from Visbonna know what I am
talking about. The Laffer law says that the treasury can receive MORE
greenbucks ;-) reducing the tax percentage, and receive LESS making taxes
bigger. This is obvious.

Why not give a possibility for local authorities (neighbourgh provinces'
praetors' council) (with an approval of central magistrate certainly) to
determine the exact value of the tax?

Let this be considered as my official proposal to SPQR as a propraetor
Sarmatiae.;-)

I've also wrote about technical difficulties. How the hell one can send
money ($15) from Russia into USA or UK with a destination "NR tax"!!! This
is unbelieveable, I know that I am talking about cos I work in a finance
company! And the transactional expenses - they defenitely will be bigger
than the entire sum of the tax. BTW the same goes for the Eagle - post
expenses from USA will be bigger than 15$, undoubtly.

> > 5) All religious leaders of Nova Roma, that are sanctioned by the State
> > shall be exempt from Taxes.

The 2d question is more for couriosness. Why "religious leaders"? What is
the reason? I have nothing against them, just courious. I know such is a
taxation legislation in USA, and in Russia too BTW, but I have always
wandered why?;-) Are they the poorest of us?;-)

PS Sorry Sulla but if you are from USA, how do you write all these letters?
It's late night now in States I believe... Night work? Lower fees?;-)

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

______________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Proposed Legislation]
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:50:13 -0800

"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" wrote:

> From: "A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
>
> Thanks a lot Sulla fro forwarding this! Some problems disappeared...
>

Sulla: Its no problem. Dex asked me earlier to post it...so I was looking for
it most of the nite. :)

>
> I have only 2 questions. The main is: I still think the possibility of
> reducing and possibly even abolishing taxes for poorest provinciae should be
> considered. NR (its European part) will never receive much $$$ from here or
> Pannonia for example if state that 15$ is a firm value of a tax, it probably
> receive nothing at all. Did you studied the Laffer Curve (am I correct in
> spelling?) The financists like Marcius Rex from Visbonna know what I am
> talking about. The Laffer law says that the treasury can receive MORE
> greenbucks ;-) reducing the tax percentage, and receive LESS making taxes
> bigger. This is obvious.
>

Thats something you would want to talk to the Consul's about. Especially since
both of them helped draft the proposal initially, last year.

>
> Why not give a possibility for local authorities (neighbourgh provinces'
> praetors' council) (with an approval of central magistrate certainly) to
> determine the exact value of the tax?
>
> I've also wrote about technical difficulties. How the hell one can send
> money ($15) from Russia into USA or UK with a destination "NR tax"!!! This
> is unbelieveable, I know that I am talking about cos I work in a finance
> company! And the transactional expenses - they defenitely will be bigger
> than the entire sum of the tax. BTW the same goes for the Eagle - post
> expenses from USA will be bigger than 15$, undoubtly.
>
> > > 5) All religious leaders of Nova Roma, that are sanctioned by the State
> > > shall be exempt from Taxes.
>
> The 2 question is more for couriosness. Why "religious leaders"? What is the
> reason? I have nothing against them, just courious. I know such is a
> taxation legislation in USA, and in Russia too BTW, but I have always
> wandered why?;-) Are they the poorest of us?;-)
>

Sulla: Well, that part was eventually discarded. However, since it was the
post that was sent to the Senate, I was not going to tamper with it. I am sure
Cassius can explain further why this was decidedly rejected as apart of the
proposal. :)

>
> PS Sorry Sulla but if you are from USA, how do you write all these letters?
> It's late night now in States I believe... Night work? Lower fees?;-)
>

I am awake....LOL, its about 5 am, I am finishing some Censor work. I work the
swing sift at earthlink, til about 12:15 am. And I am on a Cable Modem (which
is about 17-20 times faster than a dialup, Its good to work for Earthlink). So
I am always online......I set up my system to ring me when I get new e-mail. :)

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


Subject:	Re [Fwd: Proposed Legislation]
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:30:53 EST

Salvete,

Comments at the end of this thread...

In a message dated 1/28/00 4:57:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< > > > 5) All religious leaders of Nova Roma, that are sanctioned by the
State
> > > shall be exempt from Taxes.
>
> The 2 question is more for couriosness. Why "religious leaders"? What is
the
> reason? I have nothing against them, just courious. I know such is a
> taxation legislation in USA, and in Russia too BTW, but I have always
> wandered why?;-) Are they the poorest of us?;-)
>

Sulla: Well, that part was eventually discarded. However, since it was the
post that was sent to the Senate, I was not going to tamper with it. I am
sure
Cassius can explain further why this was decidedly rejected as apart of the
proposal. :)
>>

Cassius:
I'm not sure where this idea of tax exemption for religion came from, but the
entire College of Pontifices thought that it made no sense. The vote was
unanimous: there should be no tax break for religious leaders in Nova Roma!
This issue should have been dropped right after that. It should definitely be
dropped now, and for good. There should be no special financial breaks for
those Citizens who practice the Religio, and the Pontifices will be against
any attempt to introduce such a thing.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus


Subject:	Tax-related musings
From:	Pat Washburn <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:42:42 -0500

Quoth Nova Roma Mailing List:

>NR is tending to be more
>international than just American, is she?

This is certainly one of our goals. I see no need to reinvent the wheel
here. How do international scholarly and cultural organizations handle
the issue of raising sufficient funds to perpetuate themselves? Can
anyone with experience or connections to such an organization make
inquiries and report back to Nova Roma?

The only real experience I have is a local Pagan organization in which
membership is determined by subscribing to a newsletter. A bookstore
owned by two members helps by vending at three or four events a year and
turning over 10% of the profits from those events to the organization.

The hope has been expressed that the Macellum businesses will yield
similar results, but for that to be the case we may need to start
planning real-world events. For that we'll need people to plan, and other
people to commit to traveling to the event.

Patricia Cassia . Quaestor, Nova Roma
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>


Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Proposed Legislation]
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:03:45 EST

Salvete,

I just posted that I couldn't remember where the idea for a tax break for
religious leaders came from... then saw it was from a preliminary plan
written by M. Minucius Audens from the beginning of last year! Mea Culpa!

M. Audens has always been very fair and open to the Religio within Nova Roma.
His concept here was a generous one, no doubt with the furtherance of the
Religio itself in mind! The Pontificial College declined such a tax break
simply because it's not needed. Any taxes paid to NR would be a small amount,
and would not inconvenience the Religio in any way.

Anyway, we firmly declined this offer simply because the Religio should pull
it's own weight and be a contributor to Nova Roma, rather than a benificiary.
M. Audens was happy to strike the issue out of his proposal at the time, and
it's no fault of his that it got reposted to the list during this current
debate.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Pontifex Maximus

In a m--------g--------t--------:14 AM Pacific Standard Tim--------lt;a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
writes:

<< From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>

Salvete Civies! The Following proposed legislation was brought before the
Senate of Nova Roma on April 5, 1999. This legislation was created by Q.
Fabius Maximus, M. Municius Audens and myself.

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave Conscript Fathers,
>
> We bring this legislation before you to help secure the State by
> bringing in a secure and permanent source of revenue. This legislation
> has been created by Audens, Q.Fabius and myself. If you have any
> questions, please feel free to contact me.
> ______________________
>
> Resolved, the fledging Republic of New Rome needs working funds to carry
>
> out its mission. Resolved, said funds have not been forthcoming.
> Resolved the best way to have this burden applied equally amongst its
> citizens is to implement a fair and reasonable tax. Resolved, Nova Roma
>
> has received contributions but it is insufficent to meet our long term
> goals and objectives.Resolved, since that lack of such funds make Rome's
> survival problematical, therefore we propose the following legislation
> to be implemented fully by the end of this fiscal year:
>
> 1. An annual head tax of fifteen dollars American be levied on all
> current and future members of Nova Roma.
>
> 2. Said money would be due after the instillation of new Magistrates,
> First Janus so that monies would be available to form the fiscal
> budget. This tax could a sent to Rome's Capital during period of
> December 1st-to the 19th.
>
> 3. All citizens would be liable for this tax. (See Exemptions below)
>
> 4. Failure to pay tax would result in the following measures will be
> implemented:
> A. Inability to run or to hold office in New Rome.
> B. Delinquent citizen would be considered inactive, with no say in New
> Rome's government, and policies. Citizen would be kept on the rolls of
> citizens. Citizen could become active again by paying the tax.
> C. After two consecutive years the delinquent citizen would be dropped
> from the rolls. In order to rejoin as a citizen, said delinquent would
> have to pay year's tax in advance. No back taxes would be assessed.
>
> 5) An additional benefit of paying the tax will include a subscription
> to the Eagle. The Eagle publication will be a bi-monthly publication
> that will keep all paying citizens informed of special events, articles
> and information that is Roman or Nova Roman related.
>
> 6) All monies collected in areas outside of the United States will stay
> within that continent that they were collected. This will be under the
> control of a Quaestor, who is under the
> admistrative control of a Consul. Those monies will be used to fund NR
> expansion within said territory.
>
> Exemptions:
> 1) No Female Citizen that has given birth would be assessed a tax till
> said child turns four years of age. And she would be exempt while
> Pregnant with said child. This exemption would also go for the fathers
> of children as well.
> 2) Since Rome needs scholars, Students in Colleges, or Universities,
> that are could claim hardship and pay an abbreviated tax of ten
> dollars American.
> 3) Citizens could also claim extreme hardship. Citizens claiming
> extreme hardship would also pay an abbreviated tax of ten dollars
> American. Extreme Hardship in this case would be an annual income under
>
> Seven thousand dollars American.
> 4) Newly joined first time citizens receive a year's Lacuna from taxes.
> 5) All religious leaders of Nova Roma, that are sanctioned by the State
> shall be exempt from Taxes.
> >>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:13:06 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 2:56:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< I STEAL NOTHING. Please think a little than writing and declaring
publically
that someone you even never meet is a thief. I use internet and a computer
of my company with a permission, of course. This is *my* company. Perhaps
your phrase worth presenting some apologies. I just wonder what others think
about such insults being used here in NR. >>

You said you don't pay for internet access because you use your employer's.
But then you are giving morality lessons about taxation. It seemed
contradictory to me. If this is your company, then you are still paying for
internet access. If it is not your company, does your employer know you are
using internet access to chat with Nova Roma citizens across the Atlantic?

--Dexippus


Subject:	Taxes and the Corporation
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:13:24 EST

Salvete Conscript Fathers and Quirites,

I've been concerned about possible conflict between our incorporation
papers and our proposal to levy taxes, but a perusal of the papers as
posted indicates that the only clause that might offer a problem is the
statement that citizenship is free. To me, that states only that there is
no application fee for citizenship -- not that citizens will never be
asked for money. The Website says that taxes are possible in the future
(or it used to - is it still there?).

I note also that citizenship in a macronation is generally free unless
you opt for more than one. I got two for free, without even asking (or
being asked)! Yet that hasn't precluded taxation.

There is the question, though, of whether we are filing for incorporation
specifically as a not-for-profit organization and whether such status
prevents the organization from raising funds to achieve the goals of the
organization. Surely this would not be so, but perhaps we need a formal
legal opinion on this before we proceed with taxes (if we are to do so)?
We need to be certain of what our legal status will and will not permit
us to do. Or has this already been done?

I think non-profit organizations almost universally raise money.

Valete from the "Sunny South" (in the grip of a major Winter storm!),

Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:17:10 EST

Again, without being sarcastic or cruel, I must ask:

If there is such a hardship, how are you paying for internet access and the
hardware by which you (and others) continue to debate this issue?

--Dexippus

In a message dated 1/28/00 3:56:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a> write--------r>
<< We have had no citizens from Somalia at the moment, but our regulas may
count that one day even Somalian will apply for citizenship. As for
eastern Europe it is not so different than Somalia. We have got here a
little bit higher incomes, but also the life costs are much larger
(payments for heating, clothes, transport etc etc). So it means quite
often that 90% peoples here live in negative financial balance and have
even no cent for luxories as membership in any even interesting clubs.
Just takes me as example. My monthly salary is lawer than monthly flat
rent I live. So I need to take some extra jobs to cover the basic life
needs. And that is with 90 to 95% of the population here. I am not
ashamed to share you all that because that is reality. And my case is
from the good ones. It is not about me as I will pay this 15 or 25$ (it
is at least funny amount). Simply I do not want to be a Praetor of a
province without citizens. >>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:22:21 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 5:16:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< Is it? I'd like to ask then, has anyone an information how many of NR's
high
magistarates was earleir and are now Patricians? What was the proportion
between Patricians and Plebeians among consuls, censors, praetors and
quaestors? And if compared with total population's proportions? Perhaps
there *is* "real class distinction in NR" if the proportion ampng high
magistrates is/was in the past/ say 10:1 in favour to Patricians, I don't
know...

I'm just courious. >>

Consuls or Censors should answer this one.

<<I'd prefer noone...;-)>>

As would we all...but then in less than a year's time we would probably have
a bankrupt NR and then where would we be? A country/nation (cyber or not)
can not continue to run without a reliable source of income. That's
economics regardless of where you live.

<<If seriously, this would be descriminating if only patricians would pay.
BUT
ONE CAN ALWAYS LEAVE THE ORDER AND BECOME A PLEBEIAN IF ONE DONT WANNA
PAY!!! And this would be fair, at least noone will be excluded for a lack of
money. If the bigges donators (and/or people with biggest century points'
accounts) would be patricians, not the members of the oldest gens, this
would IMHO be much more fair! They deserve this honor!>>

Which again ties into my argument of doing away with the class distinction or
reorganizing it based on new requirements.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:27:07 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 5:38:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< This is not fair, I'm tried to repeat it again and again for altready 2
days... Is it fair, than someone pays a tax which equals a price of 2 cups
of coffe for him (1-1.2$$?), and another one pays THE SAME SUM of the tax
but it equals his 1-3 days family budjet for him?
>>

Life isn't fair sweetie. Get over it.

Besides, we're talking about petty change here and not life or death.

<<Perhaps some provinciae, as the very new Provincia Sarmatia are not yet
ready for a taxes... The USA and some European provinciae of course are
ready;-) But they are much older, richer, and have much bigger
population...;-) Therefore a provincial principle is desireable IMHO but
current bill lacks it, only a "continental" one (am I wrong?;-)) But
seemingly Britannia and Sarmatia are on one continent but that about life
levels in UK and Russia and Eastern Europe. Are they the same?>>

Ok...who can not pay the tax? One guy from Russia and some chick who can't
afford a pizza?

<<ooops! I'm terribly sorry, but... another one item apears. "Temples"? But
I
was said NR is not a pagan religious organization, and there are many
christians here, and perhaps some other faiths are present and even
atheists... So, would it be correct theirs taxes are spent for pagan
temples? And even in another part of the world, may be. Where they will
never be at all...
No any insults to the Rome's Gods, please don't get me wrong! But the
question still exists - why non-pagans (together with pagans) should pay for
pagan temples?>>

UUUUUUGGGGGHHH! Again...Read the Website People! NR is a Pagan Organization
that allows non-Pagans to be apart of the greater community. Pagan or
Not...it is NR's goal to re-establish the Pagan Religion of Rome (among other
goals). That includes raising temples, etc. If you don't like
it...excommunicate yourself. But that's part of what we are about. If it
bothers you, there are other non-pagan Roman organizations that you can join.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Read my lips..
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:28:56 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 6:01:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< Is it better to buy citizenship, Labiene Fortunate? Let's called things by
their names. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BUYING ROMAN CITIZENSHIP. IS THIS SOUND OK
TO YOU? Buying a right of being Novaroman? Money don't smell? It's better to
sell a right of being a patrician, at least the poorest would never be
cancelled theirs citizenship because of money!
I still believe that ones who receive more from citizenship should pay more
than one who as me lives somewhere between Europe and Asia, in snowed Ural
mountains and having nearest Novaroman in 2,5 thousand km! >>

Let me ask you then...do you pay taxes in Russia? Are you buying your right
to be a Russian citizen? Does the Kremlin say "Ok, you don't have to pay"
because you think it's unfair for some reason?

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:29:58 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 6:04:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< I'm totally with you in this! Good for you! ;-) >>

Sounds like Claudi is volunteering to pay for everyone's taxes.

There we go..problem solved.

TAX CLAUDI!

The End.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:36:58 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 6:24:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< Are you indeed capable of proposing this seriously? What about Roman
virtues
than? I am ashamed of hearing that phrase of yours. >>

Why? You want to pay heavier taxes as a Patrician? Go right ahead. Pay for
us all. We'll make you Taxus Maximus or something.

<<If so, why not thinking about joining a plebeian arder then>>

To please you? I think not.

<<This is not merit and virtue if one was among first in NR (or was adopted
by
a gens formed from the persons who was the first). THIS IS NOT, IN MY
OPINION. If one donate more for NR- this IS, and this deserves for making
one a patrician. Making patricians the 1st 30 gens and all the others is not
very fair, IMHO.>>

It seems that nothing is fair to you unless you are gaining direct benefit
from it.

<<It's the same as declaring all the americans petricians,
and all the others plebeians - was NR in the beginning purely american
organization? Just bear in mind, how many of patrician gens are not from
USA? >>

Again, a question for the Censors. I don't know the percentage of American
vs. non-American Patricians. Keep in mind though that they founders were
American and therefore it stands to reason that the first to join would be
American. But again, there's no real class distinction other than the name
"Patrician". You can run for any office I can (in fact one more...being a
Plebeian). You can vote, as I can. Where's the distinction?

<>

True. But since you can't afford $15.00, you'd still be a Plebian.

<<Personally I do not want to be a patrician - just want this (and taxatuion
system) be more fair.>>

The proposed tax system is more than fair. You are just being unreasonable.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:38:37 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 6:41:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<>

And such people shouldn't be waisting their limited funds on internet access.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:46:22 YEKT

Good morning carissime Dexippe,

>In a message dated 1/28/00 2:56:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
><a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:
>
><publically
> that someone you even never meet is a thief. I use internet and a
>computer
> of my company with a permission, of course. This is *my* company. Perhaps
> your phrase worth presenting some apologies. I just wonder what others
>think
> about such insults being used here in NR. >>
>
>You said you don't pay for internet access because you use your employer's.
>But then you are giving morality lessons about taxation. It seemed
>contradictory to me. If this is your company, then you are still paying
>for
>internet access. If it is not your company, does your employer know you
>are
>using internet access to chat with Nova Roma citizens across the Atlantic?

I don't understand one thing, probably because of my poor English;-) Do only
citizens which pay for I-t access themselves have right of voice in
discussing taxation problems in NR? ;-)
I work in a company. I, together with the boss of course;-) earn money for
it, using my knowledges, education, brains and other modest abilities;-) The
company uses this money earned by particulary me for particulary paying to
another company (which in its turn pays to a provider) for I-t access. The
boss certainly knows about my using of I-t in personal purposes (not indeed
about NR, does he need to know about Her?) Whom steals what and from whom? I
still would like your term "stealing" be explain more exactly and prooved.
Otherwise I shall have to address to the NR authorities for a fair justice
to be done in this case of "stealing".

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:00:15 YEKT

Dex we have already discussed the Internet topic throughout and I explained
the Internet situation in Russia (individuals DO NOT PAY - THEIRS
ORGANIZATIONS - enterprises, universities, etc. - DO)!
Is not its the time to stop arguing about it?

I never wrote that I personally cannot afford "2 coffees per month", I was
talking about the perspectives of requiring-paymaent-NR in such poor
provinces like Sarmatia and Pannonia, the perspectives of finding new
members which will from the very beginning know about taxes.

Iron curtains again between us? The curtains of nationalistic prejudices? I
hope not, but it looks like this than reading your posts...;-((

And again, as Cato about Carthago, I ask, what about stealing? Who steals
what from whom?

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
>In a message dated 1/28/00 6:41:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
><a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:
>
><up
> to 3 days household expenses... >>
>
>And such people shouldn't be waisting their limited funds on internet
>access.
>
>--Dex

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:08:00 YEKT

>Again, without being sarcastic or cruel, I must ask:
>
>If there is such a hardship, how are you paying for internet access and the
>hardware by which you (and others) continue to debate this issue?
>
>--Dexippus
>
Salve, being seemingly one from "the others" I can suppose that Alexander
also use Internet at his work... This is a very common situation not only in
Sarmatia but I believe in all eastern Europe. And not only - how many of
NRomans never used theirs computers at work to communicate NR (or for other
personal purposes)? I know exactly from medias (American BTW) that USA's
economy lose several 100s 1000s $$ because of using internet by emploees in
theirs work time.

We can go on with this interesting discussion ;-) about i-t access, but
off-line plz. The others may not value this thread so much as seemingly you
do.

But still the question about stealing exists...;-)

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:16:27 YEKT

Salvete omnes and good morning Provinciae Americae!

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;

A country/nation (cyber or not)
>can not continue to run without a reliable source of income. That's
>economics regardless of where you live.

THat's OK. But it can hardly be imagened that small and poor provinces
(well, you already know them;-)) - no need to repeat) can be a considerable
"source of income", at least for now and for come years more. Trying to milk
them this they;-) would only lead to theirs slow death. Reducing or
abolishing taxes for them now and in several years next (with the approval
of Senatus and Consuls of course) can otherwise let them grow and give much
more taxes in future.

><<If seriously, this would be descriminating if only patricians would pay.
>BUT
>ONE CAN ALWAYS LEAVE THE ORDER AND BECOME A PLEBEIAN IF ONE DONT WANNA
>PAY!!! And this would be fair, at least noone will be excluded for a lack
>of
>money. If the bigges donators (and/or people with biggest century points'
>accounts) would be patricians, not the members of the oldest gens, this
>would IMHO be much more fair! They deserve this honor!>>
>
>Which again ties into my argument of doing away with the class distinction
>or
>reorganizing it based on new requirements.

I am contra class distinction too, but this is not the point. I supposed the
biggest NR's donators be honored by patricianship, not that the patricians
must pay more.

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE
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Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:22:50 YEKT

salvete,

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>

>Life isn't fair sweetie. Get over it.

I suspected it long before you said it. But does it mean NR particulary
should be more and more unfair?

>Besides, we're talking about petty change here and not life or death.

This "petty change" can possibly influence the future of some NR's
provinces, and my among of them. So I am interested in it. If you are
whishing NR to be an organization for westerners only or mainly, please feel
free to say it publically.

><<Perhaps some provinciae, as the very new Provincia Sarmatia are not yet
>ready for a taxes... The USA and some European provinciae of course are
>ready;-) But they are much older, richer, and have much bigger
>population...;-) Therefore a provincial principle is desireable IMHO but
>current bill lacks it, only a "continental" one (am I wrong?;-)) But
>seemingly Britannia and Sarmatia are on one continent but that about life
>levels in UK and Russia and Eastern Europe. Are they the same?>>
>
>Ok...who can not pay the tax? One guy from Russia and some chick who can't
>afford a pizza?

I was talking about potential citizens all the time... Not about me...

there are other non-pagan Roman organizations that you can join.

Indeed? Would you be so kind to give the URLs ot at least names? Do they
collect taxes?;-))

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

______________________________________________________
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<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:24:34 US/Central

Salvete Druse Corneli et alii

> �� I think it is obvious why we, as Patricians, should pay more taxes!
> We have more century points, and thus far more influence in Nova Roma's
> government.

I would like to clear up a misunderstanding here. As a former rogator, I dare
say that I am an expert on our elections and comitia, and I would hardly call
the patrician class's advantage in centurial points "far more influence in Nova
Roma's government."

Currently, there are 193 centuries, and only 380 or so citizens. That breaks
down to only two citizens per century. Admittedly, those with more century
points wind up in a century by themselves, while those with fewer wind up
sharing the most crowded centuries with two or three other citizens. Still,
since only roughly 20% of our populace can be bothered to vote, most people
wind up being the only person voting in their respective centuries.

Additionally, the bonus given to patricians is heavily outweighed by the points
awarded for service to the Republic. It is former and standing magistrates who
wind up in the best centuries, and these people are not necessarily patrician.
Therefore, at this stage in things, patricians have exactly the same influence
as plebeians in the Comitia Centuriata.

Also, keep in mind that the Comitia Centuriata is only one of three voting
assemblies. The other two comitia do not use the centurial system, and one of
them excludes patricians altogether. By that metric, I'd say that patricians
actually have a little *less* influence than plebeians.

> I will declare right now, that I will pay whatever tax (or fee, or due, or
> donation, whatever) our Republic deems necessary.
<amputatio>
> �� I will declare now that, whether or not a tax is levied on The
> People, I will donate at least $25 dollars anually to our cause, and I hope
> that you all will do the same for the future of the world.�� Thank you.

No. Thank you! While I disagree with your logic, I certainly admire your
dedication.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:31:53 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 9:47:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<>

No. Of course not. It just seemed ludicrous of you to be espousing moral
convictions about paying for taxes within NR to help support its continued
function but then admit to using your employer's internet access to chat with
NR citizens. I'm sure your employer wouldn't approve of your time spent
online chatting and having him/her pay for it.

<>

Hey, you'll get no argument from me, sweetie. Corporate America...Corporate
Russia...it's all the same. Milk what you can. Just please don't preach the
immorality of taxation when doing so.

<<Whom steals what and from whom? I
still would like your term "stealing" be explain more exactly and prooved. >>

Stealing of time from your employer arguing about said tax. Stealing of
resources from your employer arguing about said tax. No matter how you cut
it, it's stealing. And the only reason I bring it to light is because you
had to bring morality into this discussion.

<<Otherwise I shall have to address to the NR authorities for a fair justice
to be done in this case of "stealing".>>

Honey, there are so many people waiting in line for a piece of my
ass...you'll have to take a number!

--Dexippus
Divus Maximus Extremus


Subject:	Re: Re: Read my lips..
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:36:44 YEKT

Salve,

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
>In a message dated 1/28/00 6:01:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
><a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:
>
><< Is it better to buy citizenship, Labiene Fortunate? Let's called things
>by
> their names. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT BUYING ROMAN CITIZENSHIP. IS THIS SOUND
>OK
> TO YOU? Buying a right of being Novaroman? Money don't smell? It's better
>to
> sell a right of being a patrician, at least the poorest would never be
> cancelled theirs citizenship because of money!
> I still believe that ones who receive more from citizenship should pay
>more
> than one who as me lives somewhere between Europe and Asia, in snowed
>Ural
> mountains and having nearest Novaroman in 2,5 thousand km! >>
>
>Let me ask you then...do you pay taxes in Russia? Are you buying your
>right
>to be a Russian citizen? Does the Kremlin say "Ok, you don't have to pay"
>because you think it's unfair for some reason?

Yes I do. Actually in a few day I am gonna to write my taxation declaration
and pay that I should...;-)
There is a huge difference between NR and a real-life states. Citizenship in
NR is voluntary but citizenship of real-life state is obligatory. Real-life
states do not ask theirs citizens if they want to pay or not - NR and other
micronations should do! But the main thing is I receive real values from the
"Kremlin" instead of my taxes, and they are - health-care, education, even
the higher education, defence, police/militia service, pensions,
unemployment gratulities and so on. What will NR give to (potential)
Sarmatia citizens instead of the taxes? Participating in this list and
visiting NR WWW site is not restricted for citizens only. What else? So far
I gain only the possibility to write these 3 lines in the end of my NR
posts;-) All I tried to express is some of NRomans (generally more rich)
would gain more from equal taxes than the others(generally poorer).

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

PS What about your imputation of a theft, Dexippe? Is it still valid?
______________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:36:55 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 10:01:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< Dex we have already discussed the Internet topic throughout and I
explained
the Internet situation in Russia (individuals DO NOT PAY - THEIRS
ORGANIZATIONS - enterprises, universities, etc. - DO)!
Is not its the time to stop arguing about it? >>

I'm fine with ending that portion of the discussion so long as you stop
quothing immorality issues with NR taxation.

<>

Then again...whether or not citizens in these provinces pay for their
internet access or not...if they can't afford "2 coffees per month" then they
have more important issues to concern themselves with other than choosing a
Roman Name for NR citizenship...or the latest gossip on the NR list...or how
the Ancient Romans built aquaducts...etc. Their is such a thing as Maslow's
Hierarchy of Needs. I think filing for NR citizenship takes a backseat to
feeding and clothing one'self.

<<Iron curtains again between us? The curtains of nationalistic prejudices? I
hope not, but it looks like this than reading your posts...;-((>>

Nah sweetie...the only iron curtain is the one hanging in my bedroom. Don't
bring nationalism into this. Hell, I don't even sing the Star Spangled
Banner at ball games. (ok..true, Dexie hasn't been to a ball game since mom
and dad made him/her join the little league team at age 10...but that's
besides the point).

<<And again, as Cato about Carthago, I ask, what about stealing? Who steals
what from whom?>>

See prior explanation.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:38:28 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 10:09:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< Salve, being seemingly one from "the others" I can suppose that Alexander
also use Internet at his work... This is a very common situation not only in
Sarmatia but I believe in all eastern Europe. And not only - how many of
NRomans never used theirs computers at work to communicate NR (or for other
personal purposes)? I know exactly from medias (American BTW) that USA's
economy lose several 100s 1000s $$ because of using internet by emploees in
theirs work time. >>

Yes...true...but again...I'm not quothing immorality issues with NR taxes.

If you want to discuss offline, feel free to e-mail me personally. Regarding
the "stealing"...read my previous posts.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:40:18 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 10:17:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< THat's OK. But it can hardly be imagened that small and poor provinces
(well, you already know them;-)) - no need to repeat) can be a considerable
"source of income", at least for now and for come years more. Trying to milk
them this they;-) would only lead to theirs slow death. Reducing or
abolishing taxes for them now and in several years next (with the approval
of Senatus and Consuls of course) can otherwise let them grow and give much
more taxes in future. >>

No one is asking citizens of poor provinces to give their last pennies
(rubles, lira, drakma, whatever) to NR. But to assume that American
citizens, Western European citizens, etc. are going to carry the weight in
taxes is ludicrous.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:43:29 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 10:24:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<>

Again...NR is not a Utopia. We can only attempt to be as fair and equitable
as possible. But you can't please all of the people all of the time.
Hell...you can't even please some of the people some of the time.

<<This "petty change" can possibly influence the future of some NR's
provinces, and my among of them. So I am interested in it. If you are
whishing NR to be an organization for westerners only or mainly, please feel
free to say it publically.>>

There...you found me out. I'm the Right Wing Extremist Neo-Nazi of Nova
Roma. And if you believe that...I have a bridge to sell you on the moon!

<<Do they
collect taxes?;-))>>

No...but they don't do much otherwise either.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Read my lips..
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:47:41 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 10:40:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< There is a huge difference between NR and a real-life states. Citizenship
in
NR is voluntary but citizenship of real-life state is obligatory. Real-life
states do not ask theirs citizens if they want to pay or not - NR and other
micronations should do! >>

Very good...you're correct...citizenship in NR is voluntary. You can choose
to leave at anytime and no one will come after you. I'm not suggesting that
you leave us. But if you can't play by the rules, you may be happier
somewhere else.

<<But the main thing is I receive real values from the
"Kremlin" instead of my taxes, and they are - health-care, education, even
the higher education, defence, police/militia service, pensions,
unemployment gratulities and so on. What will NR give to (potential)
Sarmatia citizens instead of the taxes? >>

For $15.00 a year you get the Eagle Newsletter, Access to the NR Mainlist,
and other benefits pointed out in previous posts.

Sorry, we can not pay your healthcare right now. Maybe in the future but
that will require a bigger tax than just $15.00.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	Matt Hu--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:42:31 -0600 (CST)

> Please, enlight me that values I for example being citizen have already
> received or will receive in future? The possibility ti talk to you guys
> certainly but I was this was free value...;-)

The value you receive is the knowledge that you are a part of a community
of like-minded persons with interest in ancient Roman civilization and
its revitalization, and the feeling of accomplishment whenever N.R.'s
real-world goals are achieved. I think these things are true for most
of us; otherwise, why would we be expending time and energy here?

> Is NR indeed the same as a bar or a fast-food place? If so, I was mistaken
> in understanding the purposes of Her. I thought that there were no
> profits-making among NR purposes. I thought NR was not a commercial
> enterprise, like bars and fast-food places.

Most non-profit organizations that have goals have some sort of membership
fee. Political groups such as the ACLU and NRA charge annual fees to
their members. The members receive newsletter subscriptions from this,
but understand that the money is used for other things than the merchandise
that's sent back to each member; it's used to advance the goals of the
organization.

Here's another suggestion: require any paterfamilias (materfamilias)
to pay annual dues. Citizens who don't wish to pay can join as
members of a gens headed by a paying paterfamilias. This way, everyone
can participate, no matter how poor, and those that do pay receive
status from doing so.

M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:59:21 YEKT

Salvete,

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>

>Why? You want to pay heavier taxes as a Patrician?

I am not a patrician. Repeat it again, I only proposed whose who give more
money become patricians and received the honors and stuff. Don't confuse the
cause and the effect! I did not proposed some demografic groups being taxed
more than the others. Pay no taxes - you become a plebeian then. No
patrician so far refused to pay taxes IIRC - then what to argue about - all
patricians would stay patricians, but some honorable people will get this
possibility too.

><<If so, why not thinking about joining a plebeian arder then>>
>
>To please you?

To free a place for some more deserving persons! I did not mean Dexippus is
not a deserving person, not at all. But if there *would* be a plebeian who
would like to pay a patrician tax (a tax of citizens of a patrician order),
and at the same time there *would* be a patrician who *would* refuse to pay
a patrician tax, the first one would possibly be a better candidate to be a
patrician than the secomd one...
Ufff...

><<This is not merit and virtue if one was among first in NR (or was adopted
>by
>a gens formed from the persons who was the first). THIS IS NOT, IN MY
>OPINION. If one donate more for NR- this IS, and this deserves for making
>one a patrician. Making patricians the 1st 30 gens and all the others is
>not
>very fair, IMHO.>>
>
>It seems that nothing is fair to you unless you are gaining direct benefit
>from it.

This is not true. Another one insult, again. Something is not fair than it
gives gains for ones and no gains for others while both pay the equal tax -
that's that I'd call unfair!

>Again, a question for the Censors. I don't know the percentage of American
>vs. non-American Patricians.

Just look at Album Gentium. 1:29 proportion for gentes;-)

Keep in mind though that they founders were
>American and therefore it stands to reason that the first to join would be
>American. But again, there's no real class distinction other than the name
>"Patrician". You can run for any office I can (in fact one more...being a
>Plebeian). You can vote, as I can. Where's the distinction?

This reminds me the saying that everyone in America (or elsewhere;-() are
equal. Still it can be asked why poor or middle class people are not
becoming US presedents, senators and congreesmen? They are the majority of
the popuilation AFAIK. Similiar picture in NR - mostly patricians are on the
Hill while the majority are plebeians... I am sorry if I am wrong!

>The proposed tax system is more than fair. You are just being
>unreasonable.

Flat tax is more than fair... for those for whom it is 0.01% of the incomes
or so. It is much less 'fair' for those for whom it is several dozens times
bigger (if take in account relative sum, not only absolute).

Still waiting some explanations about stealing (Carthago must be destroyed!)

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

______________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:02:37 YEKT

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;

><up
> to 3 days household expenses... >>
>
>And such people shouldn't be waisting their limited funds on internet
>access.

Only persons with internet access are alowed to be civis? If someone not
having funds for i-t (and for tax) would like to join, would he/she be
declined?

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:03:55 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 10:52:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a> writes:

<< Here's another suggestion: require any paterfamilias (materfamilias)
to pay annual dues. Citizens who don't wish to pay can join as
members of a gens headed by a paying paterfamilias. This way, everyone
can participate, no matter how poor, and those that do pay receive
status from doing so. >>

Am I to understand that you are asking the Paterfamilias and Materfamilias of
each gens to pay for their members'?

Dear Goddess on High...you'll all suggest anything accept that each citizen
pay his/her equal share.

Where is the rationality?

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:03:25 -0500

> ooops! I'm terribly sorry, but... another one item apears. "Temples"? But I
> was said NR is not a pagan religious organization, and there are many
> christians here, and perhaps some other faiths are present and even
> atheists... So, would it be correct theirs taxes are spent for pagan
> temples? And even in another part of the world, may be. Where they will
> never be at all...
> No any insults to the Rome's Gods, please don't get me wrong! But the
> question still exists - why non-pagans (together with pagans) should pay for
> pagan temples?

Where I live, everyone pays property tax to fund the schools,
whether or not they have children. Sure, people grip and complain
about it, but it is, in some way, a civic duty to help pay for
civic institutions. Roman Pagan Religion is a civic institution,
in this case, even if you are not a Pagan. It seems fairly likely
that temples would, in the end, receive most of their support
directly from the local people around them, but it is getting to
that point that is the difficulty.

This is just commentary, not really an opinion. Things as I see
it, though I could be wrong too.

--

Mia So--------uist (<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=189075253209082116015223190036129" >tuozin@--------</a>)
<a href="http://www.crosswinds.net/~ratnow/" target="_top" >http://www.crosswinds.net/~ratnow/</a>
Want to play the Story Game?
<a href="http://www.onelist.com/community/storygame" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/community/storygame</a>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:12:56 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 11:00:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< I am not a patrician. Repeat it again, I only proposed whose who give more
money become patricians and received the honors and stuff. Don't confuse the
cause and the effect! I did not proposed some demografic groups being taxed
more than the others. Pay no taxes - you become a plebeian then. No
patrician so far refused to pay taxes IIRC - then what to argue about - all
patricians would stay patricians, but some honorable people will get this
possibility too. >>

Then tell me what I do get as a Patrician who decides to pay taxes as opposed
to a Plebian who decides not to?

Now you are creating a class distinction and I (and others) would expect
certain advantages to being paying citizens as opposed to non-paying citizens.

<<To free a place for some more deserving persons! I did not mean Dexippus is
not a deserving person, not at all. But if there *would* be a plebeian who
would like to pay a patrician tax (a tax of citizens of a patrician order),
and at the same time there *would* be a patrician who *would* refuse to pay
a patrician tax, the first one would possibly be a better candidate to be a
patrician than the secomd one...
Ufff...>>

Again, see above. I'm not saying I won't pay a tax. I just won't pay more
than my equal share amongst all citizens 'less I'm being given something
advantages in return.

<<This is not true. Another one insult, again. Something is not fair than it
gives gains for ones and no gains for others while both pay the equal tax -
that's that I'd call unfair!>>

Equal taxation for equal benefits. You pay $15, I pay $15, she pays $15, he
pays $15 and we all get the same benfits. You pay nothing, I pay $25, he
pays $50, she pays $10...why should you get the same benefits as the rest of
us or I get the same benefits as the citizen who pays $50?

<<This reminds me the saying that everyone in America (or elsewhere;-() are
equal. Still it can be asked why poor or middle class people are not
becoming US presedents, senators and congreesmen? They are the majority of
the popuilation AFAIK. Similiar picture in NR - mostly patricians are on the
Hill while the majority are plebeians... I am sorry if I am wrong!>>

For the same reason a commoner isn't becoming President of Russia. NR
citizens without the capability of handling the responsibilities are not
going to become Censors either. As any natural born American citizen can run
for President so any citizen of NR can run for Censor (or any other
position). Whether or not he/she gets appointed is another story (and that's
what voting is all about). Don't confuse the issue please.

<<Flat tax is more than fair... for those for whom it is 0.01% of the incomes
or so. It is much less 'fair' for those for whom it is several dozens times
bigger (if take in account relative sum, not only absolute).>>

Yep...it's fair. Equal tax for equal benefits.

<<Still waiting some explanations about stealing (Carthago must be destroyed!)
>>

It was explained in a previous post. Go read it.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:14:06 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 11:06:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< Only persons with internet access are alowed to be civis? If someone not
having funds for i-t (and for tax) would like to join, would he/she be
declined? >>

No..but I doubt someone who doesn't know where their next meal is coming from
is vying to become a citizen of NR. I'm sure they realize where their
priorities are.

--Dexippus

<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:21:54 US/Central

Salvete Aeli Artori et alii

> >If we're going to have a tax, we ought to levy it equally to all citizens
> >at once.
>
> This is not fair, I'm tried to repeat it again and again for altready 2
> days... Is it fair, than someone pays a tax which equals a price of 2 cups
> of coffe for him (1-1.2$$?), and another one pays THE SAME SUM of the tax
> but it equals his 1-3 days family budjet for him?

My apologies for being unclear. When I said, "levy it equally to all citizens
at once," I was referring to patricians and plebeians, and not to provinces. I
meant that patricians and plebeians ought to be treated equally under any tax
law. I certainly did not mean that a flat tax ought to be instituted to all
citizens, regardless of the standard of living in their respective provinces.

> But seemingly Britannia and Sarmatia are on one continent but that about life
> levels in UK and Russia and Eastern Europe. Are they the same?

They are certainly not the same. I have a great deal of sympathy for the
plight of Eastern European citizens, and I understand full well that what is a
pittance in Western Europe and the USA can be the difference between eating or
not elsewhere.

> >Temples and the like don't run themselves.� The main question is how soon we
> >want to start saving for our grander ambitions.
>
> ooops! I'm terribly sorry, but... another one item apears.� "Temples"? But I
> was said NR is not a pagan religious organization, and there are many
> christians here, and perhaps some other faiths are present and even
> atheists... So, would it be correct theirs taxes are spent for pagan
> temples? And even in another part of the world, may be. Where they will
> never be at all...
> No any insults to the Rome's Gods, please don't get me wrong! But the
> question still exists - why non-pagans (together with pagans) should pay for
> pagan temples?

This is an excellent question, actually, and one that I expect will spark a
great deal of emotional furor.

On the one hand, Nova Roma's stated goal is the "restoration of ancient Roman
culture." The main page of our Web site goes on to say that, "The centerpiece
of the activities of NOVA ROMA is the Religio Romana; the ancient faith of the
people of Rome." So, it should come as no surprise that one of Nova Roma's
long term goals should be the establishment of temples to the ancient Gods.

On the other hand, Nova Roma is open to people of all faiths, and our Republic
is meant to be *more* than just a pagan religious organization. Since
religious choice is such a personal affair, A Artorius raises a reasonable
complaint.

I would argue that it is reasonably obvious that part of Nova Roma's agenda is
to re-establish the ancient religio, and that any citizen who does not feel
comfortable with that fact is going to have difficulties here from time to time.

I would also argue that temples are only one of a great number of things that
Nova Roma would like to create over time. It is my strong hope that we will,
one day, own and run one of the world's best libraries of ancient Roman
literature and history. I would also like to see us funding museums and long-
term recreation efforts.

Another valid complaint A Artorius brings up is that a library in the
Southwestern USA, for example, does little good to a citizen in Sarmatia. He
is entirely correct on this point, and it is an argument for allowing provinces
to retain a large portion of the taxes levied in them.

However, I pay taxes in the USA that are often earmarked for projects in states
I will likely never visit, and which will never benefit me. Part of my income
paid for missiles dropped on Iraq in the Gulf War; a fact which deeply offends
me. Still, I am willing to pay my taxes for the betterment of the country *as
a whole*.

And, that is precisely the point.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:30:23 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 11:24:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
&l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------ri--------

<< On the other hand, Nova Roma is open to people of all faiths, and our
Republic
is meant to be *more* than just a pagan religious organization. Since
religious choice is such a personal affair, A Artorius raises a reasonable
complaint. >>

It's a question that rears its ugly head from time to time. It has also been
given an answer numerous times over.

Nova Roma is an organization dedicated to the "Restoration of Classical Roman
Religion, Culture, and Virtues". This is taken right off the NR homepage.
Notice that "Religion" comes first. By no means is Pagan Religion our only
concern, but it is high (if not, the highest) on the list.

Unlike other Pagan organizations, NR welcomes people of all faiths who share
an interest in the cosmopolitan that was the Ancient Roman World. But
understand that our chief goal is the Restoration of the Pagan Roman Religion
on the world scene and not just a fantasy role-play.

-Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Augur, Nova Roma


Subject:	Attachments
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:08:35 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Citizens;

I appreciate very much M. Fimbria re-posting the necessary information
regarding the subject topic. While I realize that the procedure can at
times be vexing, it seems that our Web-Mistress has given some thought
to the problems that face us on our primary means of communication. I
am pleased to see that kind of detailed consideration on the part of our
magistrates. I hope that the explanation provided and the alternates
paths mentioned will assist you in the continued enjoyment of the
internet and NovaRoma Onelist. I hope Fimbria's re-posting answers some
of the questions asked of myself in regards to the subject at hand.

Vale, Respectfully
Marcus Minucius Audens;
Consul

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:08:49 US/Central

Salvete

> But to assume that American citizens, Western European citizens, etc. are
> going to carry the weight in taxes is ludicrous.

Actually, Dexippus, assuming that American and wester European citizens are
*not* going to bear the brunt of Nova Roma's taxes is ludicrous. You can't
draw milk from a stone.

If the taxes are too high for poor people to pay, they won't join. In that
case, the brunt is borne by the West.

If the tax is graduated to allow Easterners to afford it, the brunt is again
borne by the West.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortuantus

<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:26:19 US/Central

Salvete A Artori et L Damiane

> <<This reminds me the� saying that everyone in America (or elsewhere;-() are
> equal. Still it can be asked why poor or middle class people are not
> becoming US presedents, senators and congreesmen? They are the majority of
> the popuilation AFAIK. Similiar picture in NR - mostly patricians are on the
> Hill while the majority are plebeians... I am sorry if I am wrong!>>
>
> For the same reason a commoner isn't becoming President of Russia.� NR
> citizens without the capability of handling the responsibilities are not
> going to become Censors either.� As any natural born American citizen can run
> for President so any citizen of NR can run for Censor (or any other
> position).� Whether or not he/she gets appointed is another story (and that's
> what voting is all about).� Don't confuse the issue please.

You've both missed the point. In the USA, one must have a huge amount of money
in order to run an effective campaign for national office. That is why
American Presidents are always millionaires. In Russia, one must have enough
political clout to be chosen to run by the insiders. That is why Russian
leaders are millionaires.

One does not have to be a millionaire in order to handle the responsibility of
national office, however.

In Nova Roma, all that is required to run for office is citizenship, drive, a
few good ideas, and the ability to spew out a few dozen e-mail messages. Every
member who is online can have these things.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:38:44 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 12:10:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
&l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------ri--------

<< Actually, Dexippus, assuming that American and wester European citizens
are
*not* going to bear the brunt of Nova Roma's taxes is ludicrous. You can't
draw milk from a stone. >>

Thus equal taxation for equal benefits.

<<If the taxes are too high for poor people to pay, they won't join. In that
case, the brunt is borne by the West.>>

No, the brunt will be born by citizens. All citizens.

<<If the tax is graduated to allow Easterners to afford it, the brunt is
again
borne by the West.>>

Again...if they can't afford a measley few bucks then they have bigger
problems to worry about then whether or not to be an NR citizen.

-Dex

<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:49:14 US/Central

Salve Dexippe

> <<If the taxes are too high for poor people to pay, they won't join.� In that
> case, the brunt is borne by the West.>>
>
> No, the brunt will be born by citizens.� All citizens.

Bear with me through the following syllogism, please.

-Nova Roma's aggregate expenses will, primarily, be covered by taxes. This
point is currently moot (moot=debatable), but I believe that is the inevitable
outcome.
-Eastern citizens are, in general, much poorer than Western citizens.
-A flat tax will, therefore, constitute a higher percentage of Eastern
citizens' income.
-More Eastern citizens will, therefore, decide that Nova Roman citizenship is
not worth the expense. (Re: Maslow)
-Therefore, the bulk of Nova Roma's citizens will remain Westerners.
-Therefore, the bulk of Nova Roma's expenses, i.e. taxes, will be borne by
Western citizens.

Vale,
T Labienus Fortunatus


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:07:25 EST

Again...if they can't help out with their fair share, then no one is keeping
them here against their will.

Why are we so concerned about expansionism? Let's do what we can with what
we have and with who wants to be a contributing member.

--Dex

In a message dated 1/28/00 12:51:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
&l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------ri--------

<< Nova Roma's aggregate expenses will, primarily, be covered by taxes. This
point is currently moot (moot=debatable), but I believe that is the
inevitable
outcome.
-Eastern citizens are, in general, much poorer than Western citizens.
-A flat tax will, therefore, constitute a higher percentage of Eastern
citizens' income.
-More Eastern citizens will, therefore, decide that Nova Roman citizenship
is
not worth the expense. (Re: Maslow)
-Therefore, the bulk of Nova Roma's citizens will remain Westerners.
-Therefore, the bulk of Nova Roma's expenses, i.e. taxes, will be borne by
Western citizens. >>


Subject:	Re: Post Limits? (was Re: Senate Item #5)
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:16:16 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 1:14:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> write--------r>
<< Certainly the tax proposal can be debated on its merits without
dragging in 'Iron Curtains', favoritism, and theft in the workplace;
the tone of these exchanges is getting a bit too personal for my taste,
and if it is going to continue in that vein I request that the
correspondents take it off-List. >>

I believe the Gods created a "delete" button for such purposes.

--Dexippus


Subject:	Re: Falernian (was: What's Brewing?)
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:24:30 PST

Salutem!

Thus the ingenious Venator, concerning his Falernian reconstruction:

>In this initial experiment (2 gallons - 8 liters) I used 75% Zinfandel
>and 25% Merlot, with some added grape tannin.

- Nice. Had you considered oak chips? (I'm assuming you don't use oak
barrels)?

>During the primary
>fermentation I added a little extra honey syrup every couple of days to
>try and push the alcohol level up. I used a "Port" yeast, as this is
>supposed to have a good alcohol tolerance, but leave some residual
>sweetness. I did use modern yeast nutrients to try and encourage the
>yeast to do their business quicker.

- In my opinion, high alcohol conversion, especially with slow-working
yeasts, is best achieved over time: I wonder whether using the yeast
nutrients in this instance might not have been counter-productive?

>I just opened a bottle (it's about
>a year old) it is definitely a young wine. The body is much like a
>Burgandy style red wine, not quite the "Heat" the Ancient anecdotes
>mention. So, I think I've just made a good, hearty red wine in this
>first attempt.

- I have a feeling, amice, that over the next year it will develop its
character considerably. And perhaps for many years after...

Now this may sound horrendous to you, but not long ago a friend and I
ventured to drink a bottle of 1986 Beaujolais (I think it was, a Gamay type
certainly, and best drunk young - so this was ridiculously superannuated!) -
and it was very heavily crusted. Once decanted, it drank very much like a
non-vintage port - full, rounded, deep, just a hint of acidity. We found the
bottle when clearing out a garage. So far we have not laid down more
Beaujolais to see if it happens again.

>I've done some further reading, and think I may get a
>better result with a blend of Zinfandel, Pinot Noir and raisins, with a
>touch of Indian Cinnamon (which is peppery, as opposed to South American
>Cinnamon which is sweet). I'll use the Port yeast again, plus using the
>honey syrup feedings to push up the alcohol level.
>
>I'll keep the New City posted.

- I await further bulletins with interest. Can't rush these things, tho'.
Vale bene,

Vado.
______________________________________________________
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Subject:	Insults (was Re: Senate Item #5)
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:41:24 PST

Salutem!

Querit Sarmaticus, hurt after an exchange or two with Dexippus:

>I just wonder what others think
>about such insults being used here in NR.

Et respondeo ego:

My personal view is that one has not 'arrived' socially in Nova Roma, until
Dexippus considers it worthwhile to insult one. Welcome to that favoured
circle!

(His name, in Greek, means 'the horse that bites', y'know ;-).

By the way, as an ally in this tax debate, I did not mean to pooh-pooh your
pizza purchasing power ;-). Bene valete, omni...

Vado.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Insults (was Re: Senate Item #5)
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:12:01 EST

ROFLMAO!

Vado, doll..love ya to death! : )

--Dexippus
Divus Maximus Extremus!

In a message dated 1/28/00 1:43:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> writes:

<<
Salutem!

Querit Sarmaticus, hurt after an exchange or two with Dexippus:

>I just wonder what others think
>about such insults being used here in NR.

Et respondeo ego:

My personal view is that one has not 'arrived' socially in Nova Roma, until
Dexippus considers it worthwhile to insult one. Welcome to that favoured
circle!

(His name, in Greek, means 'the horse that bites', y'know ;-).

By the way, as an ally in this tax debate, I did not mean to pooh-pooh your
pizza purchasing power ;-). Bene valete, omni...

Vado. >>


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:14:51 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Citizens;

It was for the reasons that you bring forward that I suggested at an
earlier time that the Eastern Provinces be allowed to "donate" to the
proposed tax system, since the lower socio-economic status of those
countries is a well-determined fact, however, individuals who currently
have the ability should contribute as well. Further, Alexander Probus
has gone ahead and established an outreach program in his provincia in
an attempt to do what he can, in lieu, so to speak, of financial
support, which I think is a sensible approach to the problem and should
be applauded and copied. Our dear lady in Belgium has made a start in
placing information in publications outside of the Eagle. My Consular
Colleague has been very active in putting Nova Roma before the people of
the world, as have several other of our magistrates and citizens. In my
estimation that is the way to go.

While I agree that the ultimate short-term financial support will rest
upon the Western Provinces until such time as we can deal with the
problems of finance transmission and or local finance administration, I
must agree and support totally the idea that all Nova Romans must buy
into the basic precepts of Nova Roma. If there is a problem with that
remark, then I invite any member to re-read the NR Web-site. We are not
here to question the goals of Nova Roma. Those goals have been set by
the founders and we have accepted them by becoming citizens regardless
of financial prosperity, nationality, race, religion, cultural belief,
or any other differing aspect of our lives. If you cannot support this
institution with something besides words then you have not determined
from the founder's efforts the real goals and aspects of Nova Roma. If
you cannot see the glory in the restoration of those edifaces, both
physical and philosophical then why are you here? This is not a
Re-Enactment Unit, this is a micronaton. A micronation that will one
day, the gods (whoever you are partial to) willing take it's place in
the world, with a physical presence. However, it is a micronation
today, and may I remind all Nova Romans that such a nation as we are
attempting to bring back to the world drew the efforts , finances,
skills, resources of all of her citizens, who gave their allegiance to
her in return. For now we are a virtual micronation and the primary
means of communication is the internet, but there is before the people
the idea that with a tax, rather than a voluntary donation that
communcation could be enhanced by a national newsletter to all citizens
thereby increasing by nearly six times our present communication ability
with Eagle. Is that not worth working out some solution instead of the
argument that seems to stifle our efforts? The creation of an actual
micronation versus a virtual one will take funding. Funding through
donation has been in place for almost three years and it has not
realized our proposed needs. There is currently a budget voted into
place by the Senate. It is a very basic document as these things go,
but it does not take a financial expert to determine that the amounts of
funding being yielded today will not be sufficient to begin even the
most basic investment system for the years and dreams ahead. I have
read the comments of the "financial expert" in Austria, and I do not
disagree with his premise, necessarily, but I do not see the forthcoming
financial support currently from the program he purports and that is the
crux of the problem. It makes little difference to me,how the financial
support is garnered, but garnered it must be. How then do we accomplish
that, when can we start, how do we go about it. Let those be the focus
of your discussion rather than ideals that cannot serve Nova Roma
directly. Remember to that while ideas are always welcome, an idea with
a procedure for development, and willingness to work toward the
presentng of such a procedure is worth much more!!!!

If one half of the effort in viperation and argument over the last 48
hours had been spent in writing a proposal outlining your views, how
much farther would we be ahead? Certainly discussion is necessary, but
open and hostile disagreement does not help the situation at all. The
point has been made that if you are a Citizen in NR then you support her
goals, if not then you need to re-think your presence. I am not of the
Roman Religio, but I can see within that Religio the ideals of my own
beliefs in a slightly different light, but not so different that I
cannot navigate. The Roman Virtues, the Roman Arts, Engineering,
Military and Laws as well as the business of successfully running a vast
empire is to me a more than valid set of reasons to look for solutions
to the problems which face us, and not to blast each other with our
small nationalistic ideas when a much greater world awaits our efforts.

I will not bother to respond to the dsagreements that I read in the net,
as my opinions are probably not worth the time to write down. But I
will continue to put before the Senate in concert with my Consular
Collegue my efforts to move the NR goals forward by legislation and by
support for the Roman Religio which must be an equal partner in any
aspect of movement that Nova Roma undertakes and I invite the Citizens
of NR to do the same. The Magistrates of this micronation have pledged
such to this institution as I am sure that the Pontiffs have as well.
So let the Citizens take a similar pledge to work toward these goals and
move forward together and minimizing our disagreements while maximizing
our working together to complete the goals of our founders.

Valete;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Post Limits? (was Re: Senate Item #5)
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:25:18 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Dexippus;

The delete buton does not solve the problem of a limited mail box, a
problem which some of us face. I agree that a delete button works
admirably when one is present, however when one is sleeping or otherwise
engaged some consideration in the consolidation of posts, I believe can
be expected.

I thank Fimbria for the timely reminder, and would urge all citizens to
be aware that not everyone has an unlimited ability to receive mail.

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Post Limits? (was Re: Senate Item #5)
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:50:46 EST

True.

But one can not censor a debate either. That's what a forum is for -- for
communication exchange.

--Dexippus

In a message dated 1/28/00 2:28:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> --------es:

<<
The delete buton does not solve the problem of a limited mail box, a
problem which some of us face. I agree that a delete button works
admirably when one is present, however when one is sleeping or otherwise
engaged some consideration in the consolidation of posts, I believe can
be expected.

I thank Fimbria for the timely reminder, and would urge all citizens to
be aware that not everyone has an unlimited ability to receive mail. >>


Subject:	senate issue #5 $$$$$$$$$$$$
From:	"Rick Brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:15:10 PST

Salvete to my brothers in NovaRoma .....Pompeia has already said her little
bit about this and she will say no more.....BUT, I thought someone should
step in and send you guys to opposite ends of the ring for a brief "cease
fire" !!!!Valete, POMPEIA CORNELIA STRABO
______________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: Post Limits? (was Re: Senate Item #5)
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:24:57 -0800

James Mathews wrote:

> From: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/font>
>
> Salve, Dexippus;
>
> The delete buton does not solve the problem of a limited mail box, a
> problem which some of us face. I agree that a delete button works
> admirably when one is present, however when one is sleeping or otherwise
> engaged some consideration in the consolidation of posts, I believe can
> be expected.
>

Salve, there is a solution for that at onelist. :) That is to change your
subscription from individual e-mails to digest format. :)

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


Subject:	Re: Post Limits? (was Re: Senate Item #5)
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:51:31 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Censor Sulla;

When I plan to be away for a period of time, I take advantage of that
situation, however when something like this last set-to erupts overnight
that option is not open to anyone other than a mind-reader. The concern
that I have is that perhaps any given person could keep more than one
thought in his / her head before putting it on the internet.

Since we are talking about options here, I wonder if we could remind
those who need the reminding that the full capitolization of words are
the equivelent of shouting (unless otherwise explained) and I am not
fond of being shouted at. Normally people who shout at me get short
shrift. The more the shouting the shorter the shrift!!

Actually the best way to govern the use of the onelist is with a little
concern for the needs of others which is all that Fimbria meant in her
message. Just as you have your job and I have mine, she has hers as
well.

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Re: Post Limits?
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:11:48 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 3:15:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> write--------r>
<< Quaero: Who's talking about *censoring* anything?? Is proposing a
reasonable rule-of-thumb for getting 'less noise, more signal' --id
est, the most idea across with the least traffic--the same thing as
censorship? Is consolidating a shipment the same as confiscating the
goods? >>

Sorry...you're getting to me while I'm on a role.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: senate issue #5 $$$$$$$$$$$$
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:12:35 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 3:16:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a> writes:

<< Salvete to my brothers in NovaRoma .....Pompeia has already said her
little
bit about this and she will say no more.....BUT, I thought someone should
step in and send you guys to opposite ends of the ring for a brief "cease
fire" !!!!Valete, POMPEIA CORNELIA STRABO >>

What fire are we ceasing? As far as I'm concerned this is friendly debate.
No one has taken up arms.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: senate issue #5 $$$$$$$$$$$$
From:	"Rick Brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:28:34 PST

Salvete, from Pompeia: Ok, Dex, so this is a friendly debate. But judging
by the tremendous number of email exchanges, it seemed you guys needed a
break!!! My message was intended to bring levity, and there's nothing wrong
with a little levity, right?...Blessings, Pompeia

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] senate issue #5 $$$$$$$$$$$$
>Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:12:35 EST
>
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
>
>In a message dated 1/28/00 3:16:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
><a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a> writes:
>
><< Salvete to my brothers in NovaRoma .....Pompeia has already said her
>little
> bit about this and she will say no more.....BUT, I thought someone
>should
> step in and send you guys to opposite ends of the ring for a brief "cease
> fire" !!!!Valete, POMPEIA CORNELIA STRABO >>
>
>What fire are we ceasing? As far as I'm concerned this is friendly debate.
>No one has taken up arms.
>
>--Dex
>
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Subject:	Re E-mail limits was (Re: Senate Item #5)
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:29:32 EST

Salvete!

I must echo L. Maria's concern. I just waded through 67 e-mails, most that I
found repeated the same rhetoric. My time is more valuable I'm afraid. I
must insist that if a citizen is going to engage in a debate with a fellow
citizen, please take it off the list. The first two e-mails are fine for
public consumption, it gives a chance for anyone else to note e-mail
addresses and join the debate off list. Off list.
Now we are all intelligent to realize everybody here in NR does not have the
same computer systems. Some are limited in memory. Some are connected to
old modems, with slow download speeds, some ISPs have limited mailbox storage.
Even though you may have a sophisticated system, your over zealous postings
my cause another citizen to lose the use of his mailbox.

So I sum up. If you are going to engage in a public debate that is going to
take more then 4 e-mails in 2 hours, please, take it off the list and make it
private.
Thank you for your attention.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: senate issue #5 $$$$$$$$$$$$
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:35:07 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 4:29:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a> writes:

<< Ok, Dex, so this is a friendly debate. But judging
by the tremendous number of email exchanges, it seemed you guys needed a
break!!! My message was intended to bring levity, and there's nothing wrong
with a little levity, right?...Blessings, Pompeia >>

Nope...nothing wrong with levity. : )

--Dex


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:06:03 EST

Salve Consul Audens!

Please let me tell you that, after having read the proposal you and your
revered colleague have put before the senate, I really have to admit:
It is a very well thought about project, which even bears some resemblance to
statutes of non-profit organisations we have here in Austria (quality
certificate, I hope ;-) ).

Yet....my main concern is that all those citizens who will be paying this tax
would, at least in my humble opinion ALSO readily give a donation of equal
size to Nova Roma, if only asked in the right way (they might even be
identical to the subscribers of the EAGLE).

All those other citizens, which I would call sleepers or "Outsiders" will
simply not pay the "tax". After two years they will be erased from the
citizen rolls and they probably will not even care about it (think about how
many prople vote!!!).

So my fear is, that such a tax of (theoretically) gigantic proportions (378+
citizens times 15$) is in reality just a "virtual" tax. You might have the
wrong ideas of what kind of money flows really would arrive at the coffers of
the quaestors.

Yet.....I might be wrong and all 378+ citizens really WILL pay the proposed
tax. Still....I would offer you a bet against it.

Yours very respectfully

Marcus Marcius Rex
Cives NR


Subject:	Re: unsubscribe
From:	Pierlucio Pellissier <a href="/post/no--------ma?protectID=197154192078018132090232186077172165048048139046" >ppellissier@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:17:08 -0500

unsubscribe


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:36:30 EST

Salvete Romanus Popululsque Romana,

Here's an idea... Although I don't believe that many people will like it...
There is a company called All Advantage which pays people 1/2 an American
Dollar for every hour spent online. I would have told everyone about this
earlier, but I wanted to make sure that the company was legitimate. I
received a $25 check from All Advantage earlier today, so I can assure
everyone that it is legitimate.
Now here is the idea: Anyone who wishes to do so can voluntarily sign up
for and use All Advantage while they are online, but voluntarily have the
Check that they earn go directly to Nova Roma. I doubt many people will
favor this idea, but it is an extreemly easy way to "donate" money. And only
if a few people do this, it could significantly increase the Nova Roma funds
annually. You can view the All Advantage website at
<a href="http://www.alladvantage.com" target="_top" >http://www.alladvantage.com</a>

Vale in pace

Iulius Thompsonus

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.


Subject:	Re: Re: unsubscribe
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:55:52 -0800

Salve you need to go to www.onelist.com and unsub through them. :) Thats
how you subscribed on to Nova Roma's e-mail list.

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

----- Original Message -----
From: Pierlucio Pellissier <a href="/post/no--------ma?protectID=197154192078018132090232186077172165048048139046" >ppellissier@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 2:17 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: unsubscribe

> From: Pierlucio Pellissier <a href="/post/no--------ma?protectID=197154192078018132090232186077172165048048139046" >ppellissier@--------</a>
>
> unsubscribe
>
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Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	Diana Aventina <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114176113185158237169037163101249089000144044067209130152" >diana_aventina@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:07:15 -0800 (PST)

>I am indeed sure that
> no any Sarmatian or european
> Novaroman
Ummm. I AM in a European NovaRoman...

>will never ever take a greenbuck from
> rich uncle Sam or aunt Diana, no matter.

Who is uncle Sam? Is that short for Sarmaticus?

> (Personally I don't like them both at all;-))
That's becuase you've never eaten my spaghetti
:-)

Bright Blessings,
Diana
__________________________________________________
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Subject:	California Provincia List
From:	"Helena Equitia" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=123212192165158072112061186101192165094048139046" >gretagoring@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:30:14 PST

Salvete omnes!

The following was emailed privately to all NR citizens of California
and Nevada. I am now making it public and putting it on the record, so to
speak.

* * *

Greetings from Helena Equitia Ovidia, your Propraetrix of California
and Nevada, A.U.C. 2,753.

My first act as Propraetrix has been to create an email list solely
for the Roman citizens of California and
<a href="mailto:Nevada.-CaliforniaProvincia@--------" >Nevada.-CaliforniaProvincia@--------</a>. This list is not "moderated" but
it is "restricted" to residents of these two states. There are approximately
26 of us and I am inviting each of you to join! :)
We will discuss our love for the old Rome and the new Rome; we will discuss
the Religio; we will discuss getting together and meeting each other here in
California. :) I ask ex-propraetor Caius Aelius Ericius to bring his
experience from last year and I ask new citizens as well to help make this
list "active" and a success. :)

May all the Gods & Goddesses of Rome bless this endeavour!

Valete, Helena Equitia Ovidia
[musical notes from the Beach Boys here:
"I wish they all could be California Romans..." ;)]

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: Re: Read my lips..
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:49:25 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 10:40:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:
>
[amputatio]
>But the main thing is I receive real values from the
>"Kremlin" instead of my taxes, and they are - health-care, education, even
>the higher education, defence, police/militia service, pensions,
>unemployment gratulities and so on.

Hmmmmm... I don't mean to question your veracity, Sarmaticus, but if that
is true then the news media here must be distorting the facts even more
than I thought. From what we hear, that's pretty much a list of what the
Russian federal government is failing to provide -- largely because so
many cives and companies are *not paying taxes*.

I think you have been expressing a viewpoint that we must take into
account, and I think you've made your point (several times over, in fact,
and I'm not halfway through my mailbox yet). I hope this repetitive
dialog isn't going to be a perpetual one.

What do you think of M. Octavius Germanicus idea of the gens being the
basic unit taxed rather than individual cives?

L. Sergius Aust.

sic friatur crustum dulce.

(Thus the cookie crumbles.)


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:49:27 EST

Salve Aulius Artorius,

"Non-pagans" are not being asked to pay for "pagan" temples. All Roman
citizens are expected to help pay for *Roman* temples. If you (like
others) insist on belaboring the point that some consider the Religio
Romana "pagan," that's your problem -- not Rome's.

The Religion is an integral part of the concept of Rome. It is not
possible to have the latter without the former.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.

On 1/28/00 3:38 PM A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus (<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>)
wrote:

>ooops! I'm terribly sorry, but... another one item apears. "Temples"? But I
>was said NR is not a pagan religious organization, and there are many
>christians here, and perhaps some other faiths are present and even
>atheists... So, would it be correct theirs taxes are spent for pagan
>temples? And even in another part of the world, may be. Where they will
>never be at all...
>No any insults to the Rome's Gods, please don't get me wrong! But the
>question still exists - why non-pagans (together with pagans) should pay for
>pagan temples?
>
>AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
>PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE
>
>LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST
>
>VALETE IN PACE

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:49:24 EST

On 1/28/00 9:42 AM M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) wrote:

>Here's another suggestion: require any paterfamilias (materfamilias)
>to pay annual dues. Citizens who don't wish to pay can join as
>members of a gens headed by a paying paterfamilias. This way, everyone
>can participate, no matter how poor, and those that do pay receive
>status from doing so.
Heius! Great suggestion (or at least, I like it). Then it would be a
family matter whether all family members contribute or only Papa pays.

Let the province tax its gens (genii? genses?) at the rate considered
locally fair, and all provinces contribute the same fixed percentage of
their take to Mother Nova Roma, thus doing away with the problem of
different income levels in the different provinces. In turn, each
Paterfamilias (or materfamilias) would determine what was expected of
each individual member of their gens, thus leaving the problem of
hardship cases, fairness, etc., to the family to determine.

>| Microsoft delenda est.
>|
Love it!

Salve,

L. Sergius Aust.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:15:07 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Marcus Marcias Rex;

I thank you sir for your very kind words. I believe that I understand
what you are saying and I do not necessarily disagree with your premise.
There will be a portion of the 378+ who will never pay the taxes to Nova
Roma, but as we have seen not many are willing to donate the money
either or we would not be having this discussion. There are those in NR
who are dead set against the tax for whatever reason and those who are
demanding such for the salvation of a long term NR.

Then there are those who demand an extensive explanation, like a
detailed budget or more detailed proposal, which pretty much everyone
should realize by now that there is no-one to put together. I am well
aware of the probablility of payment from 100% of the Citizens of Nova
Roma, however, as I have posted in a long message to the Citizens either
you support the goals of Nova Roma or not.

Much is made of this being a micronation as opposed to a Re-Enactment
Unit, because of its future goals and intent. However, as I have said
many times on this net, I belong to four such institutions and hold an
office while I command a fifth. At this time of year every member pays
into each unit to which he / she belongs from $25 to $50 (per year) for
the privaledge of belonging and sustaining the goals of that unit, In
each case there are exceptions for people who cannot afford the annual
fees to do an equivelent amount of work. They don't talk much, they
mostly listen and do, and they are the reason that I am a re-enactor.
They are good people who pay for the priveledge of seeing the goals of
the organization being fulfilled through their efforts, finance and
attendance.

Now the question is what special method of request would you suggest to
encourage the members of Nova Roma to follow suit. We have established
pretty well that NR has goals which need financing. We have, I hope,
established that if your are a member of Nova Roma you have bought into
the goals of the institution as laid down by the founders. We have
established that if you currently belong to Nova Roma and are active on
the Internet you can probably afford a moderate tax. We have provided a
proposal for taxes which has been tabled and a budget which is at least
indicative of our needs. These efforts are far more than any one of the
above organizations to which I belong has done and yet we are still
"discussing" the topic where in the other cases the dues are being paid.

I wish in your experience as a "financial business-man" you can identify
what further is needed here in Nova Roma and why something extra is
needed. One of my Advisors tells me that it is the need to establish
the reality that the Citizens belong to and support the goals of Nova
Roma. Of course My Esteemed Consular Colleague and I assumed that fact
when we were elected as Consuls, perhaps you can enlighten us further.

Vale;
Very Respectfully;
Marcus Miucius Audens
Consul et Senator

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:28:09 EST

Salvete!

<< but as we have seen not many are willing to donate the money >>

Perhaps we should make donating money easier, somehow, and make it seem more
"popular" and fun.

Vale

Iulius Thompsonus

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> (James Mathe--------/td>
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 22:37:21 -0500 (EST)

Salve, Ilius Thompsonus;

In what way? Do you refer to a raffle, or other device? What ideas do
you have, and how may we institute the ideas?

Vale;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:34:58 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 8:53:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:

<< gens (genii? genses?) >>
Gentes.