Subject:	Discovery News Brief
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:19:39 GMT

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:13:48 EST

In a message dated 1/28/00 10:29:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:

<<
Perhaps we should make donating money easier, somehow, and make it seem more
"popular" and fun. >>

Send in your dough and Dexie will personally arrive to your doorstep and give
you a big hug and kiss dressed in Gold Lame Toga!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Let's separate off-topic treads and solve real problems!
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:42:46 YEKT

Salvete omnes,

I think that it is now time to separate in the end the off-topic treads of
personal insults and theft accusations and such real problems as taxation,
esp. taxation of 'poor ones'. Indeed, the traffic was terrible, and I am
very sorry of it. That is why I only intend to write three messages to NR
list this week-end, and this one is the first. The following two will be
about taxation and theft accusations and other personal insults being made
in this list yesterday, respectively. I humbly ask those not interesting in
one or both these topics just delete them off-hand;-)) Hopefully 3 messages
from one member are not so much for a week-end (not 20, anyway;-))

Sorry for being so annoying yesterday… Now I had a good sleep, and things do
not seem so bad as they did yesterday…;-)


AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>

Subject:	Can NR taxes be fair?
From:	hadji <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:25:15 +0100

Salvete omnes,

A lot of stuff have been said on the list about this issue and sometimes
I was ashamed to read some insulting notes. On the other side I highly
appreciate the efforts of Marcus Minucius Audens, Lucius Cornelius
Sulla, Venator, Moravius and other to quite down the contraproductive
noise.
I have told you about my plans to run out Pannonia Macellum and will do
all the best I can to support Nova Roma. On the other side I do
understand very well what our young, temperament but true friend
Sarmaticus have wanted to say. I would like to offer you an idea of mine
which seems to me to be acceptable for everyone in Nova Roma.
As 1$ has really a very different value all over the world, what about
to replace this 15$ amount with 1% from the annual income of every Nova
Roman citizen. So this 1% is so valuable for me and for Sarmaticus and
for Dexipus too. 1% is the sama all over the world and I am ready to
accept it. There is absolutly no need to declare or to publish our
incomes as all of us are enough honest to calculate this 1% amount alone
and to send it to our treasure. For those ones who are afraid or ashamed
to send the exact amount, I would like to suggest to use the average
income in their own state (it does not matter Texas, Sarmatia, Pannonia
or Somalia). I guess such a proposal is enough honest for everyone and
do not provides anyone to be ashamed or publicly to demonstrate the
advatiges of his/her birthplace.
This is my last word on this issue. Let us to see how generous, honest
are all of us now. I am prepared to devote my 1% to Nova Roma.

Est felicibus difficilis miseriarum vera aestimatio
/It is difficult for the happy one to understand how feels the poor one/

Bene Vale

Alexander I.C. Probus
Propraetor of Pannonia

Subject:	Some mixed considerations
From:	hadji <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:47:57 +0100

Salvete Dexippe, Diana et alii,

As first I would like to address a note directly to our dear Dexippus.
Dex, as you have cited my note and then asked somthing about how
(Sarmaticus???) pay for his net access, I consider this question to be
addressed to me and with all the respect to you would like to say that
it is absolutely not your business.
Another note for you is a kind of a beg to you. Evidently you are very
proud to be born and to live in your country and it is OK. But is not
fair to demonstrate so unpolitly the advatiges of your birthplace only.
Because of the different birthplace only Sarmaticus and mine incomes are
15 to 20 times lower than yours. But does not gives you any right to
consider him or me or whoever else from the East as a lazy bone, thieft
etc etc. That is not mine or Sarmaticus mistake, simply possibilities
here and there are different and you know that quite exactly (so am I as
my very close relatives live directly in your city). I would like to
invite you here and will find you a good job, so come, stay without your
incomes comming from the States and I am very curious what kind of songs
you will sing after.
As for DEMONSTRATING the generousity offering a tax wich is not
available for other, I guess you will accept my 1% (percent offer). My
percent is so valuable for me as yours for you.

Bene vale

Alexander Probus

Subject:	Theft accusations and other off-topics threads
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:48:55 YEKT

Salvete omnes,

Please ignore this message if you are not interested/involved. Still I ask
highest magistrates and/or the moderator read this post, at least the end of
it.:-)

I certainly know that such personal stuff like this theft squabble must be
kept off-lists, but… This accusations has been made publicly, and not once –
several times a day. How can defend myself in private emails in this case. I
feel that it's better to be done publicly either. (I wander that did Romans
do if they were insulted or charged of stealing publicly, say in a Forum –
don't think decided such things publicly;-) why should I?) Thus I don't
think I can keep this off-list.

The only thing I can suggest is everyone to send in NR list the only one
message upon one topic per day and answer all the opponents at once in it –
this could solve the problem of huge traffic. Personally I'll try to manage
to do so now;-) I agree with everything been said about the huge amount of
messages.

Scripsit Dexippus: It just seemed ludicrous of you to be espousing moral
convictions about paying for taxes within NR to help support its continued
function but then admit to using your employer's internet access to chat
with NR citizens. I'm sure your employer wouldn't approve of your time spent
online chatting and having him/her pay for it.
Stealing of time from your employer arguing about said tax. Stealing of
resources from your employer arguing about said tax. No matter how you cut
it, it's stealing.
Respondeo: I wander Dex how many $$$ have you already spent for writing and
reading letters with this argument about my Internet access. This $$$
probably be better spent for helping "NR support its continued function".
This could be more useful.
And again, last lime about Internet. Yes, the boss (employer if you prefer)
*knows* about my (and other employees) using of it. He says nothing and
never said so far... This is not the amount of sum (for our company) to
argue about. I use it in my free time, or them there's no any work waiting
to be done around;-)) He himself use it all the time for personal purposes,
and his daughters too;-) So we're both me and my boss are seemingly stealers
– he steals from me, I steals from him;-))
I-t access is just another way to pat employee for a job: wages...
bonuses... Internet access... All the same. We work – the employer just pays
for our work.
I refrain that *I do use Internet with a permission* (otherwise I wouldn't
already be on-line for a year!) and in my free time generally. _And
therefore I still demand your charges to be stopped and apologies made or
they be proofed better._

Scripsit Dexippus: Milk what you can. Just please don't preach the
immorality of taxation when doing so.
Respondeo: Never did so.

Scripsit ego: <<Otherwise I shall have to address to the NR authorities for
a fair justice to be done in this case of "stealing".>>
Scripsit Dexippus: Honey, there are so many people waiting in line for a
piece of my ass...you'll have to take a number!
Respondeo: Ooops… I thought so far the discussion was about "per annum", not
"per anus" stuff!;-))) Sorry, always confused this too Latin words…

Scripsit ego: >I am indeed sure that no any Sarmatian or european Novaroman
Scripsit Diana :
>Ummm. I AM in a European NovaRoman...
Respondeo: Sorry, I wanted to type "Easterneuropean";-)

>will never ever take a greenbuck from rich uncle Sam or aunt Diana, no
>matter.

Scripsit Diana :
>Who is uncle Sam? Is that short for Sarmaticus?>

Respondeo: That is short for American.;-)

Scripsit Vado :
My personal view is that one has not 'arrived' socially in Nova Roma, until
Dexippus considers it worthwhile to insult one. Welcome to that favoured
circle!

Respondeo: Oops… didn't know it. Glad I'm in and can be insulted among the
others;-)

Scripsit Vado : By the way, as an ally in this tax debate,
Respondeo: AGO GRATIAM ET AVE VADO

Scripsit Marcus Audens:
Since we are talking about options here, I wonder if we could remindthose
who need the reminding that the full capitolization of words arethe
equivelent of shouting (unless otherwise explained) and I am notfond of
being shouted at. Normally people who shout at me get shortshrift. The more
the shouting the shorter the shrift!!
Respondeo: Sorry! Never really know that! I didn't want to shout! I used
capitals just to stress some sentences;-) I also use capitals in the end of
my NR messages, it's just because Romans always used only capitals in their
writings, and the text of my signature is completely in Latin, and I always
try to type Latin like it was written in Rome. If I bother someone with
this, just tell me, no problem – I'll use the smallest letters my computer
can print;-)!!!

Scripsit Dexippus: What fire are we ceasing? As far as I'm concerned this is
friendly debate. No one has taken up arms.
Respondeo: Yes, just friendly public theft accusations, nothing more;-)

In conclusion,

as I understood from Dexippus' speeches he charged me of theft because of
using Internet on my work. Thus I have a question:
1) is this refer only to me (or to those with different opinions from Dex's
ones?), or
2) also to all the people, and NR's citizens among them, who do, or ever did
so, with or without the permission, in free or work-time?

If 1st, shall I be permitted to ask why only I am charged? Because Dex has
another opinion upon tax issue than I, and the others seemingly agree with
him, so they are not subject to accuse?
If 2d, then let all Nova Romans, all the SPQR know that Dexippus has
publicly declared all of them, who had ever used computers at theirs work
for some personal needs, e.g. for communicating in NR, with or without the
permission, in free or work-time - the THIEVES. Perhaps someone could
disagree with such an accusation and object to it?

More, can said Dexippus, as a honorable Roman and a patrician reject or
confirm any of the 2 items above, and to declare publicly does he think I/m
the only one to charge of theft, and or/does he consider some other citizens
of NR, which presumably did such a things (I already wrote about the huge
$$$ being lost in the USA because of internet surfing on work computers in
work time for personal needs), a thefts?

I also wander is/was/will be such treatment a common practice in NR for
those with different opinions from Dex's ones?

I'd also be thankful if other citizens in the end say their words and that
they think about Dex's accusations of me and seemingly the other Nova Romans
too. I humbly ask the opinions of the highest magistrates and/or the
moderator of the list being expressed. Gratias.

I also wander is there any kind of court or justice in NR for whom I can
appeal in this case?

(Yeah, I know that it looks I'm too wandering guy...;-))))

Dex, all the squabble looks like an argument of 2 kids arguing which of them
obstinate/pig-headed.;-) I was always said by my granny that among two
arguing persons that person is a culprit which is more sensible – he or she
just should stop the first. I'm glad that I'm the first among us stopping to
discuss the off-topic threads. The only thing I'm interested is your unheard
accusations of me and obviously all the other Nova Romans who use theirs
work's computers. Looking forward to see your additional explanations or
possibly – who knows;-) – even attempts to apologize!

And a little request for the end;-) Would whose who are native anglophones
in this list use a more simple English *if they intend they posts to be read
by particularly non-anglophones*? Many of words used yesterday in a messages
answering mine ones were even absent in my English-Russian dictionary;-))
(all these brunt will be born , measley, ludicrous, corporate, get short
shrift (this definitely was for me, but I didn't get it;-)). And I saw a
good hundred of the other words the first time in my life and certainly
didn't understand them... ;-) Otherwise we are not in equal circumstances –
I don't understand that you say, you do understand that I say;-) It's
difficult to debate being in such circumstances;-)

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS, CIVIS ET BARBARVS NOVAE ROMAE ETIAM
PROPRAETOR SARMATIAE PROVINCIAE

LIBERTAS INAESTIMABILIS RES EST

VALETE IN PACE

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>

Subject:	paying for temples
From:	Pat Washburn <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:25:24 -0500

It is my belief that Nova Roma treasury funds should be used first and
foremost to create events and projects that will bring us together. While
I am a believer in the Religio Romana, I also know that most ancient
Romans contributed only to the temples of the gods of their own faith.
Most men of the elite, for example, did not support the worship of
Cybele, and the worship of Bona Dea was probably funded entirely by women.

I suggest that raising money for a temple be a separate, voluntary fund,
encouraged by the leaders of Nova Roma but not funded through any
mandatory tax. I would be willing to administer this fund in conjunction
with my duties as Quaestor.



Patricia Cassia . Quaestor, Nova Roma
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>

Subject:	Alternative to taxes
From:	Pat Washburn <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:25:26 -0500

While the issue of taxation has reared its ugly head again, I would like
to mention that Nova Roma has always accepted donations from
public-spirited Citizens. If you have the means to encourage Nova Roma's
growth and strength through even a small contribution, the address is:

Nova Roma
P.O. Box 1897
Wells, ME 04090



Patricia Cassia . Quaestor, Nova Roma
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197063113185056135042082190036" >p--------@--------</a>

Subject:	Official Sarmatia's taxation proposals
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:14:40 YEKT

Salvete amici (et inamici;-)))!

Official Sarmatia's taxation proposals are in the end of the message. First
some debates and arguments;-))

Scripsit Dexippus: But to assume that American citizens, Western European
citizens, etc. are going to carry the weight in taxes is ludicrous.
Respondeo: No need of this. What "weight"?!!! The "continental" principle
was already proposed in the legislation Let American greenbucks' taxes stay
in America, British pounds' taxes stay in Britannia and so on. This can
evaluate also technical problems, transaction costs etc. What "weight" will
you carry for me if Europe (to say nothing about Sarmatia) even would never
see American taxes? All collected in the USA should be spent there.

Scripsit Dexippus: Very good...you're correct...citizenship in NR is
voluntary. You can choose to leave at anytime and no one will come after
you. I'm not suggesting that you leave us. But if you can't play by the
rules, you may be happier somewhere else.
Respondeo: Well said! But the present rules BTW declare that there are *no*
any taxes in NR and that citizenship is free. This IS the reality and the
rules. OK, Dexippus, if you can't play by *these* rules, you may be happier
somewhere else too.
All we are doing now is discussing how the rules should (and should they at
all) be changed. There were no any taxes than I enter the NR, so this very
understandable that certain questions appeared now.

Scripsit Dexippus: For $15.00 a year you get the Eagle Newsletter,
Respondeo: in Russian;-))))?
Scripsit Dexippus: Access to the NR Mainlist,
Respondeo: was not it free always;-)))? Does OneList asking money from NR
for the list;-))?
and other benefits pointed out in previous posts.

Scripsit M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS: The value you receive is the knowledge that
you are a part of a communityof like-minded persons with interest in ancient
Roman civilization andits revitalization, and the feeling of accomplishment
whenever N.R.'s real-world goals are achieved. I think these things are true
for mostof us; otherwise, why would we be expending time and energy here?
Respondeo I agree. These are real values. But why should one pay 2-3% of
one's income for them and the other – only 0,01%?

Scripsit M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS: Most non-profit organizations that have
goals have some sort of membershipfee. Political groups such as the ACLU and
NRA charge annual fees to their members.
Respondeo: Are they from such different countries (I mean life levels) like
USA and Russia?
Scripsit M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS The members receive newsletter subscriptions
from this,but understand that the money is used for other things than the
merchandisethat's sent back to each member; it's used to advance the goals
of theorganization.
Respondeo: I see it perfectly. But again is it fair (not moral, Dex;-)))) to
tax equally rich and poor, one receiving more benefits and one receiving
less?

Scripsit M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS Here's another suggestion: require any
paterfamilias (materfamilias) to pay annual dues. Citizens who don't wish to
pay can join as members of a gens headed by a paying paterfamilias. This
way, everyonecan participate, no matter how poor, and those that do pay
receivestatus from doing so.
Scripsit L. Sergius Aust.: What do you think of M. Octavius Germanicus idea
of the gens being the basic unit taxed rather than individual cives?
Respondeo: Good proposal IMHO. If such a "paying paterfamilias" would appear
voluntary and will not refuse to accept new members.;-))

Scripsit L. Sergius Aust.: Let the province tax its gens (genii? genses?) at
the rate considered locally fair, and all provinces contribute the same
fixed percentage of their take to Mother Nova Roma, thus doing away with the
problem of different income levels in the different provinces. In turn, each
Paterfamilias (or materfamilias) would determine what was expected of each
individual member of their gens, thus leaving the problem of hardship cases,
fairness, etc., to the family to determine.
Respondeo: All good. Agreed.

Microsoft delenda est.
Sorry… delenda?

Scripsit Marcus Miucius Audens: We haveestablished that if you currently
belong to Nova Roma and are active on the Internet you can probably afford a
moderate tax.
Respondeo: Moderate? Is half-month wage moderate? 1000-1500 $$ for you
Americans;-) Again, "equal" and "moderate" are relative terms.

Scripsit Dexippus: Dear Goddess on High...you'll all suggest anything accept
that each citizen pay his/her equal share. Where is the rationality?
Respondeo: What is "equal"? The rationality is in income tax. See my
arguments below.

Scripsit Dexippus: And the only reason I bring it to light is because you
had to bring morality into this discussion.
I'm fine with ending that portion of the discussion so long as you stop
quothing immorality issues with NR taxation.
Respondeo: Again, never did so. Fairness, equity I ask is not morality.
These words are not synonyms, at least in Russian language, and think in
English too. Plus, I said that it's not reasonable to tax poor
provinces/citizens exactly like the rich ones – rationality is not morality
too. Not immorality – unfair and not always reasonable issues.

Scripsit Dexippus: Then again...whether or not citizens in these provinces
pay for their internet access or not...if they can't afford "2 coffees per
month" then they have more important issues to concern themselves with other
than choosing a Roman Name for NR citizenship...or the latest gossip on the
NR list...or how the Ancient Romans built aquaducts...etc.
Etiam scripsit Dexippus: I doubt someone who doesn't know where their next
meal is coming from is vying to become a citizen of NR. I'm sure they
realize where their priorities are.
Et etiam scripsit Dexippus: Again...if they can't afford a measley few bucks
then they have bigger problems to worry about then whether or not to be an
NR citizen.
You'll be laughing ;-)))) but etiam scripsit Dexippus: Again...if they can't
help out with their fair share, then no one is keeping them here against
their will.

Respondeo: Why? There were such citizens in Rome, they were always and
everywhere… Plus, I was talking about not such poor citizens, but just about
the citizens with relatively small incomes, for which15$ is more likely be
spent for a new shirt, as Alexander Probus wrote, even if they are great
Rome lovers.
Well… err… I am sorry… Is it Dexippus who is officially appointed as the
only ge… ooops, a typo, I tried to type "guy", well the only one guy who is
to decide that annual income one needs to join NR? To estimate one's finance
ability of being Roman? To determine the minimum income a person in Sarmatia
or even Somalia needs to love Rome and all things Roman? Is it 7000$ in his
opinion? A sum for computer and internet access? Else?

Scripsit Dexippus: Then tell me what I do get as a Patrician who decides to
pay taxes as opposed to a Plebian who decides not to?
Respondeo: well, or to pay a smaller sum. Well, just honor, no more. But
also all the values M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS indicated!
Don't wanna pay? Became plebeian!
If seriously, you won't find this proposal among others in the end of this
message, I realize that this is not the best idea I ever had;-)))

Scripsit Dexippus: Equal taxation for equal benefits. You pay $15, I pay
$15, she pays $15, he pays $15 and we all get the same benfits. You pay
nothing, I pay $25, he pays $50, she pays $10...why should you get the same
benefits as the rest of us or I get the same benefits as the citizen who
pays $50?
Respondeo: Oh no! Not again! Please, are there any Thule citizens there?
They are possibly more familiar with such thing as social equity/fairness
than some overseas citizens. Perhaps someone from Sweden to explain the
things like income tax, progressive tax rates and what they are for?
I possibly could enlighten you about tax system for individuals/households
in your own country;-)), and everywhere actually. *It is income tax that is
the base!* In all tax systems I know of, the tax for individuals is not
equal (in absolute sum) for all – it's always an income tax – and that is
fair (no word of morality!)! Collecting such a tax *very* difficult, but the
flat tax is much more unfair (no any morality again;-)) Thus the state is to
bother to collect complicated income tax.

The point is, it's almost impossible for NR to control citixens' incomes –
neither this is necessory. But the differene in average incomes between
provinces should be taken into account – the average wages in different
countries are well known. The tax can be based upon that figure.

This is exactly the same that Alexander Probus proposed recently. I totally
support him.

Subject:	Re: Can NR taxes be fair?
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:54:51 EST

In a message dated 1/29/00 5:34:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a> write--------r>
<< As 1$ has really a very different value all over the world, what about
to replace this 15$ amount with 1% from the annual income of every Nova
Roman citizen. So this 1% is so valuable for me and for Sarmaticus and
for Dexipus too. >>

And how do you suggest confirming annual personal income of each NR citizen?

This thread is now ridiculous. No other organiation makes such a big to-do
about it. You have a set amount of dues every member regardless of where
they reside need to pay and that's that. End of discussion...end of dillemma.

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Some mixed considerations
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:07:21 EST

In a message dated 1/29/00 5:56:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=180166080058082135090082190036" >hadji@--------</a> write--------r>
<< As first I would like to address a note directly to our dear Dexippus.
Dex, as you have cited my note and then asked somthing about how
(Sarmaticus???) pay for his net access, I consider this question to be
addressed to me and with all the respect to you would like to say that
it is absolutely not your business. >>

First of all...it is my business (and everyone's business) when said person
decclares how immoral it is for Nova Roma to ask for money from its citizens
to continue providing the services and the content said individual would like
to continue receiving.
And furthermore it is "our" business when said individual is arguing over
petty change a year.

<<Another note for you is a kind of a beg to you. Evidently you are very
proud to be born and to live in your country and it is OK. But is not
fair to demonstrate so unpolitly the advatiges of your birthplace only.>>

And would you like to quote where and what I said to such concern? I never
brought nationalism into this. Samarticus layed claim to an "iron curtain"
being raised between us and I made light of it to distinguish that flame from
rising.

<<Because of the different birthplace only Sarmaticus and mine incomes are
15 to 20 times lower than yours. But does not gives you any right to
consider him or me or whoever else from the East as a lazy bone, thieft
etc etc. >>

Again...you should read my posts before you take it upon yourself to
criticize what I said. Samarticus espoused the immorality of NR asking for
money but then stated he doesn't pay for internet access since he uses his
employers. Normally I wouldn't care...but if he's going to take the high
road on morality, then he should answer to why "stealing" such resources from
his employer is accesptable. Rich or poor or indifferent..."stealing" is
stealing.

And as I said before, I don't give two fig newtons and a melba toast if he
(or anyone) does use his employer's internet access. Just don't take a moral
high road on the issue of taxes when your own morality isn't so straight.

<<That is not mine or Sarmaticus mistake, simply possibilities
here and there are different and you know that quite exactly (so am I as
my very close relatives live directly in your city). I would like to
invite you here and will find you a good job, so come, stay without your
incomes comming from the States and I am very curious what kind of songs
you will sing after.That is not mine or Sarmaticus mistake, simply
possibilities
here and there are different and you know that quite exactly (so am I as
my very close relatives live directly in your city). I would like to
invite you here and will find you a good job, so come, stay without your
incomes comming from the States and I am very curious what kind of songs
you will sing after.>>>

Oh so because I live in the states, all of a sudden I'm a rich dude with
megaloads of money to piss away? Excuse me but I make a moderate income for
someone living in the states. So who is now making judgement calls? Why
don't you come here and see how I live and then tell me where you stand?

<<As for DEMONSTRATING the generousity offering a tax wich is not
available for other, I guess you will accept my 1% (percent offer). My
percent is so valuable for me as yours for you. >>

No...1% is ridiculous. For someone who makes $33,000 a year here in the
states, they have to pay $330 a year to Nova Roma? You're out of your gourd
Hadji!

Even if Samarticus or someone makes an equivalent to only $3,000 U.S. dollars
a year, by your plan they have to pay $30 a year to Nova Roma. You'd have
them pay $30 (1% of their income) instead of the proposed $15? Yeah...that
makes sense!

STOPE THE INSANITY!

--Dexippus

Subject:	Re: Theft accusations and other off-topics threads
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:20:32 EST

In a message dated 1/29/00 6:49:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< This accusations has been made publicly, and not once –
several times a day. How can defend myself in private emails in this case. I
feel that it's better to be done publicly either. (I wander that did Romans
do if they were insulted or charged of stealing publicly, say in a Forum –
don't think decided such things publicly;-) why should I?) Thus I don't
think I can keep this off-list.
>>

Get off it Samarticus. No one insulted you. You left yourself open to an
attack of interrigation and that's all it was. You're not a thief because
you use your employers internet access. Just don't go around making moral
judgements about dues and taxes 'less you live the pure life. People who
live in glass houses shouldn't toss stones!

<>

As you and Hadji are so fond of fantasizing..."I'm so rich, I can afford to
do so". Don't be worrying about my spending habits if you can't afford $15
to help support NR. The amount of time and money you have spent arguing
about this could have paid for 3 years of your portion of tax by now!

<<And again, last lime about Internet. Yes, the boss (employer if you prefer)
*knows* about my (and other employees) using of it. He says nothing and
never said so far... This is not the amount of sum (for our company) to
argue about. I use it in my free time, or them there's no any work waiting
to be done around;-)) He himself use it all the time for personal purposes,
and his daughters too;-) So we're both me and my boss are seemingly stealers
– he steals from me, I steals from him;-))>>

There...you explained it. Happy?

<<_And
therefore I still demand your charges to be stopped and apologies made or
they be proofed better._>>

You'll get no apology from me as I did not insult you. You made a comment.
I inquired about it. You got hot under the collar. Who should better proff
their messages?

<<Scripsit Dexippus: Milk what you can. Just please don't preach the
immorality of taxation when doing so.
Respondeo: Never did so.>>

Uh hum..."it is immoral of NR to ask for taxes". (paraphrased).

<<Ooops… I thought so far the discussion was about "per annum", not
"per anus" stuff!;-))) Sorry, always confused this too Latin words…>>

Finally! A sense of humor! You are human!

<<Scripsit Dexippus: What fire are we ceasing? As far as I'm concerned this
is
friendly debate. No one has taken up arms.
Respondeo: Yes, just friendly public theft accusations, nothing more;-)>>

Oh get over yourself!

<<as I understood from Dexippus' speeches he charged me of theft because of
using Internet on my work. Thus I have a question:
1) is this refer only to me (or to those with different opinions from Dex's
ones?), or
2) also to all the people, and NR's citizens among them, who do, or ever did
so, with or without the permission, in free or work-time?
>> etc.

Look dude...you brought this on yourself with your morality accusation. Get
over it now...no one is calling the KGB on you so calm down!

--Dex

Subject:	Re: Official Sarmatia's taxation proposals
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:35:51 EST

In a message dated 1/29/00 10:16:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:

<< Scripsit Dexippus: But to assume that American citizens, Western European
citizens, etc. are going to carry the weight in taxes is ludicrous.
Respondeo: No need of this. What "weight"?!!! The "continental" principle
was already proposed in the legislation Let American greenbucks' taxes stay
in America, British pounds' taxes stay in Britannia and so on. This can
evaluate also technical problems, transaction costs etc. What "weight" will
you carry for me if Europe (to say nothing about Sarmatia) even would never
see American taxes? All collected in the USA should be spent there.
>>

Then what is your argument? Pay your tax/dues for your province and stop
barking about it.

<<Respondeo: Well said! But the present rules BTW declare that there are *no*
any taxes in NR and that citizenship is free. This IS the reality and the
rules. OK, Dexippus, if you can't play by *these* rules, you may be happier
somewhere else too.>>

The rules, my dear friend, are defined by the governing committe which you
pledged to abide by when you became a citizen. Again...if you can't, find
somewhere else to go to. Without money to keep NR going, that may not be a
voluntary decision.

<<Scripsit Dexippus: For $15.00 a year you get the Eagle Newsletter,
Respondeo: in Russian;-))))?
Scripsit Dexippus: Access to the NR Mainlist,
Respondeo: was not it free always;-)))? Does OneList asking money from NR
for the list;-))?
and other benefits pointed out in previous posts.>

I don't know abou the Eagle being in Russian. Ask the publisher. Besides
you seem to read English very well. So what's the problem? National pride?
Hell...publish your own Eagle!

No..onelist doesn't ask for money. But if taxes/dues are installed in NR,
access to the Onelist would be a means of ensuring such taxes/dues are paid.

<<Scripsit Dexippus: Dear Goddess on High...you'll all suggest anything
accept
that each citizen pay his/her equal share. Where is the rationality?
Respondeo: What is "equal"? The rationality is in income tax. See my
arguments below.>>

The rationality is bating the issue.

<<Respondeo: Again, never did so. Fairness, equity I ask is not morality.
These words are not synonyms, at least in Russian language, and think in
English too. Plus, I said that it's not reasonable to tax poor
provinces/citizens exactly like the rich ones – rationality is not morality
too. Not immorality – unfair and not always reasonable issues.>>

Again..you used the word "moral". Thus the thread.

<<Respondeo: You need not to explain me hoe democracy works just because I am
Russian – you are not the only one specialist in democracy just because you
are american.>>

Ok...I'm not even going to answer this one since it would be insulting. Stop
beating your shoe on the desk-top Kruschev!

I can go on and on and answer each one of your points...but unlike you
(apparently), I have more important things to do. Again, tell me how your
employer knows you spend so much time on non-work related discussion?

--Dex

Subject:	RE: Probus's post
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:14:07 -0800

of the 1% tax.

Sorry, its a bit unrealistic for a few reasons.

1. We dont have the infrastructure and bureaucracy to investigate
exactly how much everyone makes. Nor do I think most civies would like
us to know.

2. I make about 25K a year, that is NOT alot of money. That means
instead of 15.00 per year going to Nova Roma, mandatory tax, and if I
decided to add anything on top of it, I cant send that in. Now I have
to send 250.00. Sorry, but with my rent, school loans, and other debts
that just isnt going to happen.

As I said, the proposal that I drafted was a fair and very moderate tax,
as opposed to your proposal. :)

Respectfully.

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Subject:	French translations & new NR website
From:	Diana Aventina <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114176113185158237169037163101249089000144044067209130152" >diana_aventina@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:32:47 -0800 (PST)

Hi L. Cornelius Sulla Felix,

>I know my Gens member, Cornelius Scriptor, is
>currently working on a French transaltion
> of Nova Roma. :)

Could I please have a copy of that (by email or
Word) when its done. And just a question: is
Cornelius Scriptor a native French speaker? If
needed, I can have a native French speaker take a
look at his translation in order to get the bugs
out of it.
There are 3 Roman re-enactment groups that are
very active in Belgium. I would like to give them
some Nova Roma info in French the next time that
I see them (in the spring/summer).

And: I would like to put a Nova Roma page on my
website: something which says that there are
local Nova Romans in Belgium (or even Europa, but
that will depend on the feedback of this email--I
don't want to accidentally step on anyone's toes.

To whom do I need to ask about this (permission,
etc?)

Bright Blessings,
Diana
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
<a href="http://im.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://im.yahoo.com</a>

Subject:	a Suggestion
From:	Diana Aventina <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114176113185158237169037163101249089000144044067209130152" >diana_aventina@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:59:17 -0800 (PST)

Hi, it's Diana again,
Sorry: 1% of anyone's salary is too much to pay;
that would be 4 times the amount of money that I
pay to be in any other Pagan organization).

But I have a suggestion: I hate to bring up the
PF again, but I don't have any other point of
reference. We have about 6000 members, but about
300 are from countries all over the world,
including some very financially bad off countries
(like Serbia,Bosnia, Kosovo, etc. The PF gives
out about 100 free memberships.

Nova Roma could do the same thing. Nova Roma
could give away, say 5 free memberships, if there

are people that really are too poor to pay.
Just a suggestion.
Diana
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
<a href="http://im.yahoo.com" target="_top" >http://im.yahoo.com</a>

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:30:10 EST

Salve Marcus!

<< Do you refer to a raffle, or other device? >>

A Raffle (or auction) Would be an Excellent Idea!! But first there has to be
enough people that would be willing to part with something that people would
buy raffle tickets for a chance to win. (Probably Nova Roma Merchandise, or
Roman Artifacts esp. Coins)

Vale In Pace

Iulius Thompsonus



Faber est suae quisque fortunae.

Subject:	Re: Re: Senate Item #5
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:27:18 -0600

Ah yes, gentes. Thank you.

L. Sergius Aust.

On 1/28/00 10:34 PM <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132212044112194233114149109101130130239146031196234130152150" >DrususCornelius@--------</--------; (<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132212044112194233114149109101130130239146031196234130152150" >DrususCornelius@--------</--------;)
wrote:

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132212044112194233114149109101130130239146031196234130152150" >DrususCornelius@--------</--------;
>
>In a message dated 1/28/00 8:53:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:
>
><< gens (genii? genses?) >>
>Gentes.

Subject:	Re: Re: Raffles
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:01:20 EST

In a message dated 1/29/2000 3:34:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:

<< A Raffle (or auction) Would be an Excellent Idea!! But first there has to
be
enough people that would be willing to part with something that people would
buy raffle tickets for a chance to win. (Probably Nova Roma Merchandise, or
Roman Artifacts esp. Coins)
>>
Salvete
We cannot run a raffle for money in the US. It is considered a game of
chance, and we would need permits and tax information to the IRS as well.
New citizens! We have thought about all this. The tax concept has been under
study for year and half. Donations are fine. But they are unreliable. Our
GNP supported by exports is not feasible. Maybe someday. So that leaves
taxation.
And that's crux of the matter. If that word bothers you think of it as a due
or a tithe even though it would not be 10% of your monthly income like a
tithe to church would be.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

Subject:	Re: Re: Raffles
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:14:36 EST

Salve

<< we would need permits and tax information to the IRS as well. >>

We could apply for a "tax break" such as those Non-Profit Organizations and
Churches Receive. Unless I'm mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong,
Recognized Churches and Recognized Non-Profit Organizations, such as the
Boy-Scouts of America (Which I was in untill I graduated), don't have to pay
taxes, or only have to pay reduced taxes.

Vale

Iulius Thompsonus

Subject:	Re: Re: Raffles
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:20:29 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Raffles


> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------;
>
> Salve
>
> << we would need permits and tax information to the IRS as well. >>
>
> We could apply for a "tax break" such as those Non-Profit Organizations
and
> Churches Receive. Unless I'm mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong,
> Recognized Churches and Recognized Non-Profit Organizations, such as the
> Boy-Scouts of America (Which I was in untill I graduated), don't have to
pay
> taxes, or only have to pay reduced taxes.

Salve, first we are not registered as a Church.

Second it would require alot of paperwork, and there is public scrutiny of
such measures. Also, you would most likely need an attorney versed in not
for profit law to prepare those documents. I worked at California Bapitst
College, and they had their legal department to handle those issues. We, at
Nova Roma, do not have those resources.

L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

> Vale
>
> Iulius Thompsonus
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. ZERO. Rates as low as 0.0
> percent Intro APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points, no hidden
> fees, and much more. Get NextCard today and get the credit you deserve.
> Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at
> <a href=" <a href="http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/NextcardCreative6CL" target="_top" >http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/NextcardCreative6CL</a> ">Click
Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:36:23 -0500

Salvete Amice Dexippe et alii



:From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132056131009152219130232203140129208071" >Dexippus@--------</--------;
:
:In a message dated 1/27/00 11:00:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
:<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a> writes:
::
:TAX 'EM TILL IT HURTS!
:


Have you contributed any money to Nova Roma?

Valete

C Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Senate Item #5
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:42:52 -0500

Salvete M Octavi et alii



:From: Matt Hu--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
:
:
:This is not descrimination. This is simply the expectation that those that
:receive value by being citizens should be willing to pay for it.

Why? why does one citizen need to know that another citizen is paying for
"it"?
:
:It is not discrimination when a theatre owner refuses to let in someone
:who can't or won't pay for a ticket. It is not discrimination when
:a fast-food place withholds cheeseburgers from those who can't pay.

Nova Roma has no theater from which to refuse anyone. Nor do we provide any
food, even lousy fast food.
:
:If Nova Roma is ever to accomplish anything at all, it's going to need
:money.

You're right here.

Waivers should be granted for citizens within those countries
:where incomes are comparitively low,

How do we define those countries? Whose definition is legitimate? What
exactly do the waivers say, who writes them?

but most of us here can easily
:afford $20-$30 per year.

You're probably right about this too. And hopefully, those of us who can,
will contribute that amount, or more, in much less than a year.
:
:M. OCTAVIUS GERMANICUS
:
Valete

C Marius Merullus

Subject:	Re: Read my lips..
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:54:41 -0500

Salvete Marce Marci et alii



:From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=085056131063158209025056228219114253071048139" >RexM--------us@--------</--------;
:
:I feel the need to say something here with regard to taxes because, funny
:enough, in my real life job I work for the Ministry for Finance, which is
:above all responsible for the collection of taxes....

You have my sympathy.
:
:I do not think that taxes would be the best idea for NR. Here is my
personal
:view on the subject:
:
:1.) As some have pointed out already, it would do more to deter, than to
:attract new citizens, if you threaten them with taxes. At least for now we
:would be foolish, to lay something as ugly-sounding as "taxes" in the way
of
:our republic.

I agree.
:
:2.) I do not think that an online community like NR would have more
security
:in planning its budget with "taxes" than it would have with "donations".
The
:truth is, unlike my Ministry here in Austria (hopefully soon to be a
province
:as well!) NR does not really have the means to force those who do not want
to
:pay to hand over their credit cards.

No it doesn't, but NR can punish non-paying people in a number of ways:
moderating, or censoring, participation in on-line fora; subtraction of
century points or other negative impact, including total removal, of voting
rights; exile, stripping of citizenship. Any reasonable taxation proposal
will have to include some or all of these punitive measures, and will have
to outline exactly who administers the punishment, when.
:
:3.) You will have problems with a worldwide community to find a
:progression-system which would be fair to ALL the citizens around the world
:AND which would be in a reasonable relation to the transaction costs
involved
:AND would not be terribly complicated (our tax code is a maze you would not
:believe and do not tell me about the US tax code, I know it, and it is
SIMPLE
:compared to ours...)

I submit that we do not have the time, or the know-how, to devise and
implement a system of taxation that would be fair to ever citizen around the
world (assuming that we need to devise and implement such a system). So, I
guess that something much less than fair will be somehow devised and somehow
implemented.
:
:4.) Solution: Maybe you could introduce a donation system which could be
:linked to the century points.

As Fortunatus has pointed out, century points are overrated. Also, I for
one don't care for awarding any voting privileges, no matter how small (such
as the addition of 5 or 10 century points, which, with our current
population, makes almost no difference in anything) for money. Awarding a
person an honorary title, and/or sending them a certificate, would be
better.
:
:Marcus Marcius Rex
:Cives NR


Valete

C Marius Merullus

Subject:	Chat Room Issues
From:
Date:	Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:32:55 -0800

Salve

Working at Earthlink brings me into contact with many individuals who know ALOT about computers. I have learned that the Chatroom setup is not safe because it displays our IP addy's. While it is safer for Dial up accounts because its a Dynamic IP addy. For us High Speed, Broadband users who have static IPs its VERY UNSAFE. Its a Security Hazard. Could this please be changed, I really dont want people finding my IP address and hack into my computer.

At work today I learned just how easy it is to hack into any computer once you learn their IP addy, and well I am very concerned.

Vale

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]