Salvete Merullo et al
Merullo said:
>First off, I have no idea why the lares are depicted in Greek dress
carrying
>Greek rhytones. Sorry Vado. I can only offer speculation, that some Greek
>statuettes made their way to Latium further back than our record goes.
>These statuettes might have suggested lares to some notable patrician, who
>acquired them and built a shrine around them in his domus. His clients and
>guests might then have seen this shrine, and striven to imitate it. If
>Roman deity images drew heavily from Greek ones, I see no reason to deny
the
>possibility that the statuary depictions of lares could have been
imitations
>of some Greek statuary.
>One reason to deny this would be the idea that the lares were purely Latin,
>having no analog in Hellenic religion. Of course I don't know whether this
>assertion is true, but I suspect that it isn't. In previous threads,
>Ericius has offered information on Etruscan deities that likely influenced
>the development of lares in religio romana. And, other cultures also have
>spirits associated with place (more on that later).
I have another explanation, which seems to be more likely. The Lares are
depicted as servants, helpers, carrying the while and sometimes wheat. I
would say that they are depicted as household slaves, helping the Genius of
the Paterfamilias (character depicted with the head covered - 'caput
velato'). Well, in classical Rome, the greek slaves were the most highly
regarded for household functions (they were more civilised. Celts or germans
would never recognise an owner, and were usually employed in harsher
physical works). I think that this is the origin of the greek custom of
Lares, and thus think that the Lararium rite is in fact Latin.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontif
-----Original Message-----
From: RMerullo <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
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<a href="mailto:religio@--------" >religio@--------</a> <a href="mailto:religio@--------" >religio@--------</a>
Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 5:37 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Lares and Penates
>From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>
>Salvete Luge Briganti et alii
>
>You touch upon some interesting questions here. I have thought along
>similar lines and would like to add a little bit. I hope that subscribers
>to the religio and Vizantia lists won't mind this cross-post. I cross-post
>because I think that there is some possible relevance for subscribers to
>those lists. If I'm wrong, please delete it and forget it.
>
>First off, I have no idea why the lares are depicted in Greek dress
carrying
>Greek rhytones. Sorry Vado. I can only offer speculation, that some Greek
>statuettes made their way to Latium further back than our record goes.
>These statuettes might have suggested lares to some notable patrician, who
>acquired them and built a shrine around them in his domus. His clients and
>guests might then have seen this shrine, and striven to imitate it. If
>Roman deity images drew heavily from Greek ones, I see no reason to deny
the
>possibility that the statuary depictions of lares could have been
imitations
>of some Greek statuary.
>
>One reason to deny this would be the idea that the lares were purely Latin,
>having no analog in Hellenic religion. Of course I don't know whether this
>assertion is true, but I suspect that it isn't. In previous threads,
>Ericius has offered information on Etruscan deities that likely influenced
>the development of lares in religio romana. And, other cultures also have
>spirits associated with place (more on that later).
>
>It's possible, even if my speculation is true, that the imitated Greek
>statuette(s) represented something entirely different, not analogous to
>lares. I mention this possibility to acknowledge my own failure to answer
>Vado's question, and invite other people to try instead.
>
>> >>
>>
>> no offence, but has anyone considered carving your own statuary? i
>know
>>were are not all artisans,
>
>A member of my gens, Sextus Marius Australis, does this. I have seen
>pictures of his lararium, and a statue of Diana that he made. I do not
have
>these skills, and I suspect that only a tiny few have them.
>
> but when you make your own icons, they become
>>embodied with our spirit as well as the lar and pentaes.
>
>This makes sense to me, but I would like to point out that one can imbue
>with spiritual meaning a representation (picture, statue, other) totally of
>someone else's making, or noone's making. Actually, if this weren't so, of
>what use would that black stone have been to the worshippers of Magna
Mater?
>
>What I have thought more about is -- what are the lares et penates, beyond
>the forms of their representations? The short answer is spirits of the
>home, and spirits of the hearth. This answer leaves me with more
questions.
>But first, your question:
>
>oh yes, considering
>>Roman relgion, we have reccords of settlers and soldiers leaving votie
>>offerings to Gods in native or newly conqured land, or even civilied
>>proviences. would it be appropite, for those of us in the U.S., to leave
>>offerings to native american land spirts.
>
>For whatever it is worth, I would say probably yes. More below.
>
> i always do, as i consider it a
>>sign of respect for the local spirits. we occupy their land, and likewise,
>we
>>should not take them for granted beacuse of it.
>
>Well, the land that I occupy is mine, to the extent that land belongs to
any
>human being. That means that I have a relationship with that land, the
>obligation to do as much as I can to clear dead trees and brush to make
room
>for the healthy, prevent fires and protect everything on it. I believe
>that, if one enters this sort of relationship with the land, the local
>spirits of the land join with you. "Your" local spirits (in my case, lares
>et penates) are the local spirits of the locus. If one abuses one's own
>land, one cannot worship spirits of the place, no matter how you try to
>worship them or what you call them, whosever they are. I would think it
>quite appropriate to honor spirits of place by their American indian names,
>if one knew the spirits by those names and felt that he/she were visiting
>the land.
>
>My question: are lares et penates indigenous to places, or are they
>associated with families? Or, is this a false dichotomy?
>
>I saw an interesting article last week (may still be there --
><a href="http://www.russiatoday.com/features.php3?id=135907" target="_top" >http://www.russiatoday.com/features.php3?id=135907</a>) about superstitions in
>Russia. I have been to Russia and known quite a few people from there and
>neighboring countries, and I have been under the impression that the three
>quarters of a century or so of communism and state promotion of atheistic
>materialism had pretty much stamped out religion and sprituality there, not
>just orthodox christianity but judaism and other forms as well. I was
>surprised by the suggestion of this article that some forms of ritualistic
>behavior (naturally called superstitions, since the author and intended
>audience aren't supposed to subscribe to them) are very widespread there
>today. But, when I thought about my own surprise, I recalled the custom of
>sitting down together before setting out on a trip as an act to do for its
>own sake with one of my acquaintances who had never seemed to me to be
>atypically spiritual or superstitious. Of particular interest to me here
is
>the notion of the domovoy, the household spirit. It seems that some
>Russians believe that houses have spirits indigenous to them.
>
>>
>>Smooth Roads
>>
>>Lugus Brigantius
>>
>
>
>Valete
>
>C Marius Merullus
>
>
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