Subject:	My Web page works!!! >({|:-D >({|:-D >({|:-D
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 01 Apr 2000 19:40:29 -0600 (CST)

Salvete amici!

Ab Urbe Condita, Marius' humble Page, is now once again
fully-functional! While SW Bell Internet has yet to address the
subdirectory issue, I was able to get around it by providing an index
page for each subdirectory. Clicking on any of the options on the main
Page's link menu will pull up the index page for that section; the
individual files are accessible from there.

Check it out at: <a href="http://home.swbell.net/legion6" target="_top" >http://home.swbell.net/legion6</a> !!

Happy surfin'...
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	OFF TOPIC
From:
Date:	Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:49:55 -0800

Salve!

Just a reminder, tonite (at 2 am) we turn our clocks up one hour...for daylight savings time. :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Appointment of a Legate
From:	Helena <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=165158192237078153036181001245114223071048139" >oceanlilly@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:42:44 -0500 (EST)

I hereby appoint Marcus Martianus Gangalius as my Legate for
the province of California and Nevada. He plans to work on
the California Provincia web page as part of his efforts to
once again become active in Nova Roma. I have had the pleasure
to meet him in person and I believe him to be a fine Roman.

-Helena Cornelia Ovidia
Propraetrix of California
& Rogator
______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at <a href="http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup" target="_top" >http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup</a>

Subject:	Freedom of Speech
From:	"Bradius V. Maurus III" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=014130014161146028033082190" >bvm3@--------</a>
Date:	Sun, 02 Apr 2000 07:29:19 +0200

Salvete omnes!

It is said in praise of Confucius that he sacrificed *as if* the spirits were
present. A statement that is not to be taken to mean that he doubted their
presence, but simply that he and his school of thought did not regard their
presence or downright non-existence as being the point. The point was that carrying
out the Rites was spiritually, aesthetically, morally, and socially a good thing in
and of itself.

The Roman attitude was similar: the Roman religious rites were thought good to
practice if only to follow the mos maiorem. Unlike in Christianity, belief was not
the point; there was no creed of the Religio Romana. There was just religious
practice. That does not imply hypocrisy: the practice was thought good in itself,
and even probably conducive to good fortune, whether or not the state functionaries
practicing it believed literally or at all in the gods.

It is therefore a matter of good form now in Nova Roma to show a certain deference
to the Religio Romana without regard to whether one believes literally in its
deities as real, separate, divine entities. Indeed that is also constitutional good
form.

In Ancient Rome, there were of course real atheists, Epicurean indifferentists, and
those who believed all the gods and goddesses to be manifestations of one divine
Power. (I myself belong to that last view.) To deny the existence of the gods is
therefore not really un-Roman, but simply impolite in the mode of expression in
this particular case.

I am distinctly queasy at the mention of "a capital offence" in connection with
this. Nova Roma does not yet have its own sovereign territory. Is one to envisage a
Salmon-Rushdie-like solution? I feel it would be better not to talk that way. Let's
keep things in perspective: the vast majority of the human race at present does not
believe in the existence of the Roman deities, and most would be happy to say so
quite publicly.

In Nova Roma, a community both of gods and men (and goddesses and women - vivat
differentia! ;-) ), we have a small area where a certain minimum amount of respect
for the Olympians (and Others) is normal. Since everyone has the whole rest of the
world in which to deny the existence of the Roman divinities, and even to vilify
them, it would be ordinary thoughtfulness not to do so here. Or at least to state
the case more philosophically. But I am against blasphemy laws, whether Christian
or Islamic or Roman. (And in fact is there a blasphemy law in Nova Roma?) Any real
god can take care of himself, it seems to me. (The Olympians have probably become
rather tolerant of neglect and disbelief in the past 15 centuries, I suspect.)

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Citizen Candidate

Subject:	Ave Kaorque Martinianus!
From:
Date:	Sun, 02 Apr 2000 00:24:22 -0800

Ave Legatus California Septentrionalis!Ave Martinianus!
It will be good to see you around.
KAOR!
etc.

C. Aelius Ericius
Augru et Pontifex
Senator
(Postpropraetor of another etc. =({[;-)

> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:42:44 -0500 (EST)
> Fro--------elena <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=165158192237078153036181001245114223071048139" >oceanlilly@--------</a>
> Subject: Appointment of a Legate
>
> I hereby appoint Marcus Martianus Gangalius as my Legate for
> the province of California and Nevada. He plans to work on
> the California Provincia web page as part of his efforts to
> once again become active in Nova Roma. I have had the pleasure
> to meet him in person and I believe him to be a fine Roman.
>
> -Helena Cornelia Ovidia
> Propraetrix of California

Subject:	[novaroma] Freedom of Speech
From:	Mike Ma--------r <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=174176211056207031025158175026172165098048139046" >MikeMa--------r@--------</a>
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 05:58:49 -0400

Salvete!

I think the debate about freedom of speech is slightly misdirected.

1) As far as my reading goes, the roman law crime of sacrilege, though
ill-defined, was applied mainly to acts like interfering with,
misappropriating or defacing sacred sites and property, rather than to
speech whether public or private. However,

2) Though Nova Roma is a micronation, it is also a religious
reconstructionist organisation. There are plenty of classical and/or Roma=
n
studies groups which are not commited to the revival of the Religio Roman=
a;
NR provides the main space for those of us who are committed to the
Religio. In this context freedom of speech within NR is less like freedom=

of speech within a territorial state which disposes of coercion, like the=

USA, and more like freedom of speech within a church or church
organisation. People who can't resist taking the opportunity to publicly
denounce the religion don't belong in an organisation devoted to that
religion, and their freedom of speech is not infringed by preventing them=

speaking in those terms; since they can speak in those terms ANYWHERE ELS=
E
(caps to substitute for italics for quiet emphasis, not to shout). On the=

contrary, using the resources of a religious group to denounce the
religious beliefs of the group is a denial of the freedom of speech and
association of the believers.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Birth of a Nation
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:28:53 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 30/03/00 16:12:48 GMT D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------;
writes:

<< You show me the Boxer Rebellion, where the
West forced China to accept opium as a trade good against its will >>

Thought it was the Pekin Expedition of 1860 that led to the opening of opium
as a legitimate trade good.

Sorry. Very off topic.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rufa Paula Cornelia
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:28:54 EDT

In a message dated 30/03/00 17:23:38 GMT Daylight Time,
&l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=132056219182127132169218031036129208" &g--------curia@--------&l--------&g--------ri--------

<< As free men and women, you are exercising your right given by the first
amendment of the Constitution >>

Your Constitution. I could look upon it as the adherence to a document drawn
up by traitors!

Severus
Britannia

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] OFF TOPIC
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:28:56 EDT

In a message dated 02/04/00 02:50:26 GMT Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< Just a reminder, tonite (at 2 am) we turn our clocks up one hour...for
daylight savings time. :) >>

A week behind everyone else. That's the USA for you! ;-)

Subject:	Voter Codes, again
From:	Donald and Crystal Meaker <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 08:32:03 -0500

Salvete,


I attempted to email the censor about getting the voter codes (e-mailed
to him March 25, 2000) for my husband and myself, but the email was
apparently ignored. I now ask pubically and hope for a response. We
hope that the censors dislike for our family would not prevent him from
providing us with our voter codes.


Vale,
Placidus and Crystallina

Through my constant care, my husband flourished.
-From an epitaph found at Rome (1st century B.C.)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Freedom of Speech
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 08:44:36 -0500

Salve M. Mucius,

Thank you for a calm, cogent contribution to this issue. I agree that for
anyone to come here to publically denounce religion or the religious
views of others is inappropriate and not a matter of "freedom of speech."
In the present matter, no-one has done that. One citizen has merely made
one statement directed against no-one and stating what most of us
evidently consider to be an ignorant opinion.

His opinion having been stated, he has done nothing to attack anyone or
the Religio. Historical literature and historical conduct make clear that
many prominent Romans did not really think the gods existed as portrayed,
and many of them did public things that were outrageously impious.
Sulla's looting of temples to fund his legions comes readily to mind.
There was never any requirement to believe in the existence of the gods
in order to be an admired and prominent Roman. Only a cursory respect for
ceremonial formalities was expected.

I think there is little basis, at this point, to support a contention
that Festus stated his opinion for the purpose of making a stink here --
although if that _was_ his purpose, some of our learned citizens have
certainly cooperated with him by making an uproar about a simple
statement of personal opinion. If he tries to push his opinion in our
faces, then it will be clear what his purpose is. Unless that occurs, it
would be most helpful if people would just ignore it -- unless we are
expected to try to proselytize him like some obnoxious sects do.

People have a right to think that the earth is flat and to say so. People
have right to think that the gods do not exist and to say so. People have
a right to make stupid statements without being threatened with capital
punishment -- if that were not so, some of us would be in dire danger. To
those who think otherwise I say, let's get a grip on reality and "chill"
a little, please.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.


On 4/2/00 4:58 AM Mike Ma--------r (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=174176211056207031025158175026172165098048139046" >MikeMa--------r@--------</a>) wrote:

>Salvete!
>
>I think the debate about freedom of speech is slightly misdirected.
>
>1) As far as my reading goes, the roman law crime of sacrilege, though
>ill-defined, was applied mainly to acts like interfering with,
>misappropriating or defacing sacred sites and property, rather than to
>speech whether public or private. However,
>
>2) Though Nova Roma is a micronation, it is also a religious
>reconstructionist organisation. There are plenty of classical and/or Roman
>studies groups which are not commited to the revival of the Religio Romana;
>NR provides the main space for those of us who are committed to the
>Religio. In this context freedom of speech within NR is less like freedom
>of speech within a territorial state which disposes of coercion, like the
>USA, and more like freedom of speech within a church or church
>organisation. People who can't resist taking the opportunity to publicly
>denounce the religion don't belong in an organisation devoted to that
>religion, and their freedom of speech is not infringed by preventing them
>speaking in those terms; since they can speak in those terms ANYWHERE ELSE
>(caps to substitute for italics for quiet emphasis, not to shout). On the
>contrary, using the resources of a religious group to denounce the
>religious beliefs of the group is a denial of the freedom of speech and
>association of the believers.
>
>Valete,
>
>M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Appointment of a Legate
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 10:57:15 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Marcus Martianus Gangalius;

Wecome back to Nova Roma, and I congratulate you on your appointment. I
wish you well in your endeavors. ad I hope that you will share with some
of us other "legates" some of your ideas in regard to that appointment.

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Freedom of Speech
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:02:29 EDT

Dear Jupiter, Apollo, and the Rest!

I can't even go on a vacation without trouble popping up on this list.

You insult the Gods...you're off this list and out of this organization.
It's as simple as that.

Whoever it was who said "the gods don't exist" should be immediately removed.

Said...done...over.

--Dex

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Gods (was: Freedom of Speech)
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:07:44 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 3/30/00 10:40:07 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------; writes:

<< Your statement of *personal* disbelief in the gods is in no way an attack
upon the Religio. My hope is that this argument won't progress to the point
where it forces you to make ever stronger statements that stray far from
your
original intent. >>

I view it as an attack. The statement was not "I don't believe the gods
exist". But rather a hard "The Gods Do Not Exist". The implication was
insulting to those who believe the actual existance of the Gods.

--Dex

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Freedom of Speech
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:14:26 EDT

I have seen no apology from Festus for his blasphemous remarks.

I call for his immediate removal from Nova Roma!

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Augur, Nova Roma
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rufa Paula Cornelia
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:33:07 EDT

In a message dated 4/2/2000 6:29:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132100020254093198016200200028114253071048139" >DTibbe2926@--------</--------; writes:

<< Your Constitution. I could look upon it as the adherence to a document
drawn
up by traitors! >>
Severus,
The war for American Independence has been over for 218 years now. Give it a
rest. Besides it wasn't a real Revolution. It was just the rich landholders
tired of the Crown's influence on their lives. So they severed ties. And
had you (the UK) not alienated every other major power except Prussia, we'd
probably still have ties
to the Crown.
At any rate good to hear from you.
Q. Fabius

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voter Codes, again
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:35:31 EDT

In a message dated 4/2/2000 6:40:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a> writes:

<< I now ask pubically and hope for a response. We
hope that the censors dislike for our family would not prevent him from
providing us with our voter codes. >>
Salve!
I find it hard to believe that. I know he was working on giving out voter
codes
this weekend. He just hasn't got to you yet.
Vale
Q. Fabius.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rufa Paula Cornelia
From:
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:37:48 EDT

It was made as a joke but I forgot the smiley.

However as it has been taken as a serious point I'll continue the theme.
Comparing the US Constitution to the NR Constitution is hardly going to win
friends and influence people. I don't give two hoots for the US Constitution
and find it mildly insulting that US based Nova Romans even refer to it when
discussing NR politics. We'll be quoting Magna Carta next!

Don't get used to me posting here, QFM. Half the time I don't even find the
time to read the emails. ;-)

Severus
Britannia

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voter Codes, again
From:
Date:	Sun, 02 Apr 2000 12:36:52 -0700

Salve

As I have responded to most everyone....I am only off of work on Monday and
Tuesday. Those are the main days I have to work. I have a list of people
that I have to get voter codes for. I try to fluctuate between getting
voter codes, working on the Tribes and Centuries, and processing new
applications. So that I dont get bored with the work.

I did get your e-mail, it goes right to a separate folder (filtering gotta
love it). You will be getting your voter code on Monday or Tuesday.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Donald and Crystal Meaker wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I attempted to email the censor about getting the voter codes (e-mailed
> to him March 25, 2000) for my husband and myself, but the email was
> apparently ignored. I now ask pubically and hope for a response. We
> hope that the censors dislike for our family would not prevent him from
> providing us with our voter codes.
>
> Vale,
> Placidus and Crystallina
>
> Through my constant care, my husband flourished.
> -From an epitaph found at Rome (1st century B.C.)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LOW RATE, NO WAIT!
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates
> as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
> Learn more at:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/937/4/_/61050/_/954682774/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/937/4/_/61050/_/954682774/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=132056219182127132169218031036129208" &g--------curia@--------&l--------&g--------td>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rufa Paula Cornelia
From:
Date:	Sun, 02 Apr 2000 15:43:11 -0500

Severus Britannia

I was not and never did compare the US Constitution to the NR Cnstitution. I
was enjoying all the idividual opinions that were bing expressed about
western civiliztion. I was referring to the political framework of Rome and
how the American Founding Fathers used it to set up the political structure
of the American Republic.

You do not give ' two hoots ' about the US Constitution. Nova Roma is
allowed to exsist within the bounderies of the United States, because of the
US Constitution. And the citizens of Nova Roma are permitted to give their
political ideas voice because of the US Contitution. That, my fellow
citizen of Nova Roma, is why the article contained in the First Amendment
concerning the freedom of speech was written. So that individuals could
speak their minds on political matters without fear of retaliation.

I did not join NR to win friends and influence people; it does not matter to
me that you like me or not. I joined NR to learn more about a culture that I
admire greatly, and, yes, I believe in the political ideals of the US
Constitution. I will not change or compromise my beliefs to have or win over
friends.

Rufa Paula Cornelia
Miles Romae
Fers Ferrum Romae.



----------
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132100020254093198016200200028114253071048139" >DTibbe2926@--------</--------;
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Rufa Paula Cornelia
>Date: Sun, Apr 2, 2000, 2:37 PM
>

> It was made as a joke but I forgot the smiley.
>
> However as it has been taken as a serious point I'll continue the theme.
> Comparing the US Constitution to the NR Constitution is hardly going to win
> friends and influence people. I don't give two hoots for the US Constitution
> and find it mildly insulting that US based Nova Romans even refer to it when
> discussing NR politics. We'll be quoting Magna Carta next!
>
> Don't get used to me posting here, QFM. Half the time I don't even find the
> time to read the emails. ;-)
>
> Severus
> Britannia
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget.
> Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already
> registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/2623/4/_/61050/_/954704272/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/2623/4/_/61050/_/954704272/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=132056219182127132169218031036129208" &g--------curia@--------&l--------&g--------td>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rufa Paula Cornelia
From:
Date:	Sun, 02 Apr 2000 15:44:20 -0500

Q, Fabius

I do not live in the UK

Rufa Paula Cornelia

----------
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061044104089235135169082190036" >sfp55@--------</--------;
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Rufa Paula Cornelia
>Date: Sun, Apr 2, 2000, 1:33 PM
>

> In a message dated 4/2/2000 6:29:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=132100020254093198016200200028114253071048139" >DTibbe2926@--------</--------; writes:
>
> << Your Constitution. I could look upon it as the adherence to a document
> drawn
> up by traitors! >>
> Severus,
> The war for American Independence has been over for 218 years now. Give it a
> rest. Besides it wasn't a real Revolution. It was just the rich landholders
> tired of the Crown's influence on their lives. So they severed ties. And
> had you (the UK) not alienated every other major power except Prussia, we'd
> probably still have ties
> to the Crown.
> At any rate good to hear from you.
> Q. Fabius
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LOW RATE, NO WAIT!
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates
> as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
> Learn more at:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/937/4/_/61050/_/954700392/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/937/4/_/61050/_/954700392/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Subject:	To the four
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:23:45 EDT

Salve Marcus Cassius Julianus,
Marius Fimbria,
Marcus Apollonius Fortunatas, and
L. Sergius Australicus

I wanted to say thank you to your four for your support on this list,
against charges directed at me of "blasphemy", "a capital offense", and the
like.
If the phrasing of my initial post offended you four, then I do apologise
to you. I hope I never unintentionally offend those I consider my friends, as
I do you. I look forward to your posts and topics of interest in the future!

Sincerely, Gaius Lupinius Festus

Subject:	Parmenides
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:23:41 EDT

Salve Praetor Graecus,

I remember Parmenides as the philosopher who claimed that all change is
an illusion.
According to him, whatever is, is, and whatever is not, is not and never will
be.

Naturally then, we should not be surprised at his claim that our thinking of
something proves its existence. For if something exists only as an object of
thought, it would cease to exist once we stopped thinking about it. And that
would be a change, which Parmenides held is an illusion. But, if nothing
changes, where is Parmenides today?

The trouble is that Parmenides is wrong. We all see in our common sense
experiences, every day, that things do in fact change. And we all know,
again, in our common sense lives, that things do not exist just because we
may think of them. This point was already made by Fortunatas. The universe
of objects of thought is vastly larger than the universe of actually existing
things, for the former includes the latter, as well as objects of the
imagination. I can think of things which no longer exist {Parmenides, Julius
Caesar}, things that do exist independently of our mind {the moon, the sun}
or things that do not exist at all {Godzilla, Mary Poppins}.

One cannot cause a class of objects to exist by definition.

Gaius Lupinius Festus