| Subject: |
Re: Personal Thoughts on the Gods, etc. |
| From: |
Jennifer E Hunt <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=194176114182127134138038203001129208071" >riturtle@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:30:04 -0400 |
|
"Adrianus Arius Acadianus Draco" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045015192254056209050218001036129208" >jhebert@--------&--------a> writes:
> Like our human family and friends, I believe that, as it were, we
> "invite the Gods to parties" ("rituals"), "take them out to lunch"
> ("sacrifices"), and "call them on the phone" ("prayers"). In short,
> we develop and maintain a relationship with them which is far from
> purely mercenary; rather, it is a bond of ever-increasing friendship,
> trust and affection (which one doesn't normally feel for, say, the
> neighbourhood car salesman).
Thank you for expressing this thought -- it is the way I view the
relationship between the Gods and humans, as well.
> I think perhaps that while we "render the Gods Their due," we also
> reflect upon the likelihood that this is not merely a fiduciary
> duty. It is, and is founded upon, a mutual love and concern, a
> friendship and familial bond, which is as much in our hearts as in
> our heads.
Yes!! So much of the religious tradtion of the Romans stems from much
earlier practices which evolved from the hearth, home, and community --
it would indeed be short-sighted to ignore that the ultimate end of our
worship is to establish such a familial bond with the deities, who are
indeed our kin.
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------; -------- points out th--------br>
> Someone doing ritual with real feeling and intent would
> generally have been more successful as a priest.
Absolutely -- can there really be any doubt??
> Doing a ritual with the same passion as say, reading some
> wall
> graffiti correctly might satisfy ancient *form*, but as important as
> correctness was it was unlikely to please either the public or the
> gods as much as true spiritual involvement.
This is one point that most sources tend to overlook, but is so obvious
that it cannot truly be contradicted. To follow form alone would be
comparable to a Catholic (for example) confessing to sins for which he
was not truly sorry. (I only use this as an example because I was raised
Catholic and am more familiar with that particular doctrine than other
faiths.) OF COURSE, the Gods will be more apt to pay attention to a
properly performed ritual by one whose heart belongs to them than one
that does not. I would even go so far as to say that they would be more
forgiving of errors or oversights to one whose prayers are sincere and
heartfelt than one who merely follows the form to the letter based on a
contractual relationship alone.
Like Augustus, Julian, and others, I abhor the idea that a priesthood
might be a mere political vehicle for some ambitious people who don't
think such a personal bond with the Gods is important. Granted that
during most of the scope of Roman history, this may have been the case, I
certainly would not care to emulate the Romans in this respect today.
Jenni Hunt
a/k/a Iulia Ovidia Luna
Pontifex, Nova Roma
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Candidatus in censorem |
| From: |
<--------lass="msghead"> labienus &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>
| Date: |
Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:46:06 -0500 |
|
Salvete.
Allow me to add my voice to those already praising C Marius. During my
stint as his rogatorial colleague, he impressed me as a true man of
character. If elected, he will be a conscientious, impartial, and
competent censor. I urge you to cast your vote for him.
Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Personal Thoughts on the Gods, etc. |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:07:20 +0100 |
|
Salvete Iulia Luna et al
Let me be a little monster =)...
>> I think perhaps that while we "render the Gods Their due," we also
>> reflect upon the likelihood that this is not merely a fiduciary
>> duty. It is, and is founded upon, a mutual love and concern, a
>> friendship and familial bond, which is as much in our hearts as in
>> our heads.
>
>Yes!! So much of the religious tradtion of the Romans stems from much
>earlier practices which evolved from the hearth, home, and community --
>it would indeed be short-sighted to ignore that the ultimate end of our
>worship is to establish such a familial bond with the deities, who are
>indeed our kin.
Again, for the Romans (traditionally) Gods are not the kin of humans. That
is a later Greek and Asiatic development, which was firstly manifested in
the Orphic and Pythagorean schools of Magna Graecia.
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------; -------- points out th--------/font>
>> Someone doing ritual with real feeling and intent would
>> generally have been more successful as a priest.
>
>Absolutely -- can there really be any doubt??
It's a matter of probability, yes.
>> Doing a ritual with the same passion as say, reading some
>> wall
>> graffiti correctly might satisfy ancient *form*, but as important as
>> correctness was it was unlikely to please either the public or the
>> gods as much as true spiritual involvement.
>
>This is one point that most sources tend to overlook, but is so obvious
>that it cannot truly be contradicted. To follow form alone would be
>comparable to a Catholic (for example) confessing to sins for which he
>was not truly sorry.
This is no good comparison. The Romans had originally no concept of "sin".
The only concempt was "sacrilegium", "impietas" and was more practical,
concerning the violation (either voluntary or involuntary) or ritual. Not to
believe was not a "sacrilegium" ORIGINALLY (for later, foreign cults brought
the concept of sin and inner belief, faith).
>Like Augustus, Julian, and others, I abhor the idea that a priesthood
>might be a mere political vehicle for some ambitious people who don't
>think such a personal bond with the Gods is important.
ATTN!!!!! Augustus HAD THE IDEA THAT A PRIESTHOOD MIGHT BE A MERE POLITICAL
VEHICLE. He intituted the Imperial cult, which lead to the gradual decadence
of the traditional priesthoods.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
|
| Subject: |
Website update |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 08 Apr 2000 03:51:52 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes
I just want to publically thank our Webmaster Graecus in updating the
Nova Roma website... :) It really needed some revisions and while Gn.
Tarquinius Caesar's computer down (and hopefully will be up soon.),
Graecus has done a great service to step in and carry the load!
Thank you Graecus!
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Website update |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:59:10 +0100 |
|
Salve Censor Sulla
Thank you for your kindness. But this is nothing but my duty as a Roman
citizen.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
To: NovaRoma <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:55 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Website update
>Salvete Omnes
>
>I just want to publically thank our Webmaster Graecus in updating the
>Nova Roma website... :) It really needed some revisions and while Gn.
>Tarquinius Caesar's computer down (and hopefully will be up soon.),
>Graecus has done a great service to step in and carry the load!
>Thank you Graecus!
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR!
>Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as
>0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
>Apply NOW!
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/2121/4/_/61050/_/955191329/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/2121/4/_/61050/_/955191329/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
|
| Subject: |
ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem VI Idus Aprilis (April 8th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:56:54 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action or
public business could take place.
This is the fifth day of the Megalesia in honour of Magna Mater (Cybele),
mother of all Gods, Who saved Rome from Hannibal, as promised by the
Sibylline Oracles.
Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
|
| Subject: |
Album Gentium |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 08 Apr 2000 04:48:58 -0700 |
|
Salve!
The Album Gentium is updated. If your information is incorrect or
missing please e-mail me with the corrections and I will update it.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
|
| Subject: |
PLEASE READ!!! Re: voter code |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 08 Apr 2000 09:34:33 -0700 |
|
Salve
When an election occurs you will be required to enter that voter code.
When you enter it, it must be in exactly the same fashion I have given
it to you. That means no spacing and no small letters. If you have any
questions please feel free to contact me.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
|
| Subject: |
Commendatio |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:10:17 PDT |
|
Nicolaus Moravius Vado, not without Aletheia Moravia, urges his
fellow-citizens to elect Gaius Marius Merullus as Censor and Marcus Octavius
Germanicus as Curule Aedile. They are worthy of office.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Personal Thoughts on the Gods, etc. |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:22:04 EDT |
|
Salvete Iulia Ovidia et Antonius Gryllus
Please excuse me for entering into this with a couple of
observations/questions. (*Why* is beyond me since I make it a rule NEVER
to get drawn into discussions of religion. However, this one looks to be
a civil one so far.)
On 4/8/00 3:07 AM Antonio Grilo (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>) wrote:
>Salvete Iulia Luna et al
>
>Let me be a little monster =)...
>
>>> I think perhaps that while we "render the Gods Their due," we also
>>> reflect upon the likelihood that this is not merely a fiduciary
>>> duty. It is, and is founded upon, a mutual love and concern, a
>>> friendship and familial bond, which is as much in our hearts as in
>>> our heads.
>>
>>Yes!! So much of the religious tradtion of the Romans stems from much
>>earlier practices which evolved from the hearth, home, and community --
>>it would indeed be short-sighted to ignore that the ultimate end of our
>>worship is to establish such a familial bond with the deities, who are
>>indeed our kin.
>Again, for the Romans (traditionally) Gods are not the kin of humans. That
>is a later Greek and Asiatic development, which was firstly manifested in
>the Orphic and Pythagorean schools of Magna Graecia.
I don't think this is correct, since the Roman myth of their origin was
that they were descended from Aeneas and his entourage, who in turn had
family relations with some of the gods and goddesses. The Julii, in
particular, always claimed actual descent from Venus -- hence the
traditional battle cry of Caesar's legions, "Venus Victrix!"
>
>><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------; -------- points out th--------/font>
>>> Someone doing ritual with real feeling and intent would
>>> generally have been more successful as a priest.
>>
>>Absolutely -- can there really be any doubt??
>It's a matter of probability, yes.
A modern interpretation of ritual would be that it serves to satisfy
inner needs of the mortal who performs the ritual and therefore the
feeling and spirituality of the mortal would indeed have a direct bearing
upon how effective it would be.
Unfortunately for this argument, the Romans didn't see it that way. The
gods were NOT objects of faith or belief for the Romans. They were facts,
and the relationship of a Roman with a god was a *contractual* one.
Performing ritual was a part of the contract and not a matter of
spirituality. The Romans even made a practice of offering to contract
with foreign gods of their enemies -- "If you'll withhold your assistance
from the Parthians, we will build a temple to you at Rome and offer daily
sacrifices to you there."
In this context, the *form* of the ritual is what mattered, in order to
fulfil a contractual obligation.
>
>>> Doing a ritual with the same passion as say, reading some
>>> wall
>>> graffiti correctly might satisfy ancient *form*, but as important as
>>> correctness was it was unlikely to please either the public or the
>>> gods as much as true spiritual involvement.
>>
>>This is one point that most sources tend to overlook, but is so obvious
>>that it cannot truly be contradicted. To follow form alone would be
>>comparable to a Catholic (for example) confessing to sins for which he
>>was not truly sorry.
>This is no good comparison. The Romans had originally no concept of "sin".
>The only concempt was "sacrilegium", "impietas" and was more practical,
>concerning the violation (either voluntary or involuntary) or ritual. Not to
>believe was not a "sacrilegium" ORIGINALLY (for later, foreign cults brought
>the concept of sin and inner belief, faith).
I think you miss her point here: she only chose that ritual as an
example. A less misunderstandable one might be watching many priests I
have known who run through the Mass with so little feeling or involvement
that you wonder why they bothered to come to it. Or better yet,
Episcopalian priests who are openly skeptical of the existence of their
god as anything but a nice philosphical convention, and yet trudge
through the rituals every Sunday.
>
>>Like Augustus, Julian, and others, I abhor the idea that a priesthood
>>might be a mere political vehicle for some ambitious people who don't
>>think such a personal bond with the Gods is important.
>ATTN!!!!! Augustus HAD THE IDEA THAT A PRIESTHOOD MIGHT BE A MERE POLITICAL
>VEHICLE. He intituted the Imperial cult, which lead to the gradual decadence
>of the traditional priesthoods.
I never realized that Augustus started that -- do you have references on
this?
>
>Valete
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Looking at this, I wonder if we are not trying to understand Roman
religion from the viewpoint of "moderns." In the present age, the very
existence of deity has long been questioned and the emphasis in the
religions of this age has long been one of "faith" and "belief."
Not so in the Roman world of 750 BCE. We have to bear in mind that the
Romans were NOT "just like us" except for lacking telephones, automobiles
and smallpox vaccines. Their's was literally an entirely different world,
and among those differences was that deity was present with them
everywhere they looked, all the time. The gods and goddesses were the
representations they used to address realities they dwelt with and dealt
with on a daily basis. Those realities are still there and people all
over the world are still trying to learn to address them again -- not
just in Nova Roma.
Considered in this context, Festus' recent remarks are not "blasphemous"
but just silly and out-of-context -- clueless! Tell a Christian his God
doesn't exist and you may create a conscious or unconscious panic that
inclines him to want to destroy you because you make him afraid that you
may be right. Tell a (real) Roman his gods don't exist and you might as
well tell him his penis doesn't exist -- he'll snort at you in scorn and
derision and walk away.
I think it tells us something important that a number of people on this
list reacted to Festus as Christians would rather than as Romans would.
But getting back on topic: I wonder of if you would consider that you may
be speaking from the context of public ritual, whereas Iulia Ovidia seems
to be talking about her private approach to the gods. You may not be both
talking about quite the same issues.
I hope this is a contribution rather than a disruption.
Valete,
Lucius Segius Australicus
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
|
| Subject: |
Gens Thompsonus |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:38:35 EDT |
|
Salve
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gens Thompsonus |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:20:26 -0700 |
|
Salve
That would be me. :)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; wrote:
> Salve
>
> >From the Nova Roma Website:
> <<When choosing a nomen, try to avoid names that are merely Latinized
> versions of your own name, especially ones that do not Latinize well.
> Examples of names such as these are Thompsonus, Ryanus, Smitheus. >>
>
> All right I have been insulted enough. Now that the Album Gentium is
> *finally* available for view I will be changing my gens name. Who may I
> contact to change my nomen?
>
> Vale
> The Former Iulius Thompsonus
>
> Morituri te salutamus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR!
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as
> 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
> Apply NOW!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/2121/4/_/61050/_/955219148/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/2121/4/_/61050/_/955219148/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
civis novus |
| From: |
"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sat, 08 Apr 2000 22:25:04 -0000 |
|
Avete omnes.
Today I=B4ve been approved as a new citizen of Nova Roma. And I=B4m
very=20
glad about it. As I posted in the message board, I=B4m an enthusiast
of=20
ancient times and a a beginner of Latin language.
Salvete omnes.=20=20=20=20
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] civis novus |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:28:14 EDT |
|
Salve Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Welcome to Nova Roma! I'm Iulius Thompsonus soon to be changing to Iulius
Titinius Antonius. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask... um..
Sulla (lol).
Vale
Iulius Thompsonus
Faber est suae quisque fortunae.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] civis novus |
| From: |
"Rick Brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sat, 08 Apr 2000 16:46:45 PDT |
|
Salve, Lucius Pompeius Octavianus:
Welcome to Nova Roma. Pleased to make your acquaintance!!
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo,
Gens Cornelia
Nova Roma
<-------- size=-1 color="#008000">>From: "Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] civis novus
>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 22:25:04 -0000
>
>
>Avete omnes.
>Today I´ve been approved as a new citizen of Nova Roma. And I´m
>very
>glad about it. As I posted in the message board, I´m an enthusiast
>of
>ancient times and a a beginner of Latin language.
>Salvete omnes.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
>1. Fill in the brief application
>2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
>3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
>Apply NOW!
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/975/4/_/61050/_/955232708/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/975/4/_/61050/_/955232708/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
______________________________________________________
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|
