Subject:	Greetings....
From:	"William Dowie" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=093176235078082031072212129024166089177098204046209130" >William_Dowie@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:43:20 -0400

... and introductions. I am Gaius Quinctius Flamininus, new citizen of Nova Roma, and new to the list.

"Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any
man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of
my life and the day of my death were fated long ago."
-Anonymous lines from For Scirnis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tribes
From:
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:17:52 EDT

In a message dated 04/12/2000 7:52:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< I come before you with a Censor Report on the Tribes and their
composition in Nova Roma. I think this is very important given the
fact of the upcoming election. >>

Salve good Censor Sulla,

I was wondering when the election is and i was also wanted to ask what
tribe i'm in.

Valete
--Silvanus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greetings....
From:
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:21:06 EDT

In a message dated 04/13/2000 12:08:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=093176235078082031072212129024166089177098204046209130" >William_Dowie@--------</a> writes:

<< Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any
man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of
my life and the day of my death were fated long ago."
-Anonymous lines from For Scirnis
>>
Salve,

I would like to take this opportunity to say welcome to Nova Roma. Oh and by
the way your quote is wonderful! Quite satisfying! :)

Valete
--Marius Lucianus Silvanus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tribes
From:
Date:	Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:23:53 -0700

Salve

I dont know when the election will be. As for the Tribes....please e-mail
me privately and I will give you that information. :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246176235084158116130232097165052165134048139046" >Silv--------727@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Tribes


> In a message dated 04/12/2000 7:52:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
> << I come before you with a Censor Report on the Tribes and their
> composition in Nova Roma. I think this is very important given the
> fact of the upcoming election. >>
>
> Salve good Censor Sulla,
>
> I was wondering when the election is and i was also wanted to ask what
> tribe i'm in.
>
> Valete
> --Silvanus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with
> convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the
> first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
> additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate.
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3099/4/_/61050/_/955599480/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3099/4/_/61050/_/955599480/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

Subject:	Lares and Di Penates
From:	"Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:18:57 -0700

Salvete Omnes:

I'm having difficulting sorting out the "spheres of influence" of the Lares and the Di Penates. As near as I can figure, the Lares would be more outside the house, and the Di Penates more inside the house, but they'd sort of overlap. Yes? No?

Valete,
G. Albius Gadelicus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tribes & Comitia
From:
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 03:37:35 EDT

In a message dated 4/12/2000 9:19:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246176235084158116130232097165052165134048139046" >Silv--------727@--------</--------; writes:

<< I was wondering when the election is? >>
Salvete!
The Comitia will be called on the 24th of April. According to the religious
calendar, this is the only day that is propitious for a meeting of the
people. I, Q. Fabius do propose a shortened 5 day voting period, to allow
the newly elected censor time with his colleague to familiarize him to his
duties. Most of Rome seems interested in this election, and we expect a good
turn out. The virtual cista is being constructed as we speak. More
information will be forecoming shortly.
Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus
M. Minucius Adens
Consules

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greetings....
From:	"William Dowie" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=093176235078082031072212129024166089177098204046209130" >William_Dowie@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 03:42:59 -0400

Thank you, for both the welcome and the compliment on my sig.

G. Quinctius Flamininus

"Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any
man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of
my life and the day of my death were fated long ago."
-Anonymous lines from For Scirnis
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246176235084158116130232097165052165134048139046" >Silv--------727@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Greetings....


In a message dated 04/13/2000 12:08:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=093176235078082031072212129024166089177098204046209130" >William_Dowie@--------</a> writes:

<< Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any
man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of
my life and the day of my death were fated long ago."
-Anonymous lines from For Scirnis
>>
Salve,

I would like to take this opportunity to say welcome to Nova Roma. Oh and by
the way your quote is wonderful! Quite satisfying! :)

Valete
--Marius Lucianus Silvanus

------------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lares and Di Penates
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:48:33 +0100

Salve G. Albi Gadelice

>I'm having difficulting sorting out the "spheres of influence" of the Lares
and the Di Penates. As near >as I can figure, the Lares would be more
outside the house, and the Di Penates more inside the >house, but they'd
sort of overlap. Yes? No?
Well, during the Empire, the Lares Familiaris started to be identified with
the Penates, but traditionally they are different. Here is a list of the
main household deities:

Lares Familiaris:
Initially only one Lar, later 2. In the lararium they are represented by
young men dressed after the greek manner and carrying rhytones, positioned
on each side of the central figure (Genius of the paterfamilias - see
below). They are the guardian spirits (Genii) of the family and follow the
family everywhere.

Lares Loci:
Guardian spirits of a place. Each house has a Lar Loci. In the lararium, the
Lares Loci (one or two serpents) are represented by snakes below the earth,
usually below the altar or the Genius of the paterfamilias.

Genius of the Paterfamilias:
There is a guardian spirit for every man (a Genius) or woman (a Iuno), Who
direct most of our inner feelings and decisions. The Genius of the
paterfamilias is specially revered in the household. In the lararium it is
usually represented by a figure dressed Gabinu ritu (as a sacrificer with
the toga covering the head) in the center, often near an altar.

Penates:
Genii of the storeroom. They bring the plentiness to the household, guarding
it against famine. They later become associated with the Lares Familiaris.

Manes:
Spirits of the ancestors. They also watch and protect the family.

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask for more details.

Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

Subject:	Kyrinia is going on vacation (again)
From:	"Kyrene" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198015242190036129" &--------yrene@--------</a&--------/td>
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:27:46 -0400

Salvete,

Yes, I'm just the traveling nut. Will someone please spa--um, stop me from
doing this again. ;)

I'll be in Florida from day until late Monday. Anyone who needs to reach me
before then, please send me private email at this account and I'll get in
touch with you when I return. I'm staying with my grandparents, who do not
have a computer nor would ever want one.

Oh, and I'm bringing some good books on Roman religio to keep me occupied on
the plane. Since I'm heading to the land of sunshine, it'd be good to honor
Apollo while I'm there. :)



Valete et xairete,

Kyrinia


-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1527" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1527</a> *=-
-=* ~The Tholos~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAriadne *=-

Subject:	Lares and Di Penates
From:
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:28:33 -0400

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:18:57 -0700
From: "Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
Subject: Lares and Di Penates

Salvete Omnes:

I'm having difficulting sorting out the "spheres of influence" of the Lares and the Di Penates. As near as I can figure, the Lares would be more outside the house, and the Di Penates more inside the house, but they'd sort of overlap. Yes? No?

Valete,
G. Albius Gadelicus

Salvete Omnes

The following was sent to a list (I don't remember which one) some time ago by Iustina Luciania Orbianna, Gens filia of my colleague Augur Damianus Lucianus Dexippus. I hope it answers some of your questions.

Valete, Lucius Equitius


Salvete Omnes,

The Lares

"The family as we know it to-day bears little of no relation to that
ancient institution of which the Lares were the Keepers of the Gate...In
those early days the title to the land was possession and use. Because it
was to him the source of his life, because its cultivation gave him
occupation, because upon the land he build his house and in the land he
made his grave, therefore the land to ht archaic man was sacred; for not
only was it the home of the living, it was also the place of the dead. And
it was the dead ancestors in their graves who really possessed the land
and, as the Lares, were the Keepers of the Gates.

"The belief of the ancient man in the ghosts of his fathers, with their
unknown power to help and harm, was better than a title deed to secure each
man in the possession of his land. Every man feared the Lares of every
other man. The earth in those days was peopled with a host of spiritual
beings, --unseen, unheard, smiting with the pestilence, and killing with
the plague. If any untoward accident befell a man, or sickness came to him
after he had trespassed on his neighbor's land, then he, as well as his
neighbor, ascribed his misfortune to the wrath of the Lares of that
land. Thus each man had a wholesome fear of the ghosts of his
neighbor. He was ready to fight his neighbor, whom he could see, but not
his neighbor's ghosts, whom he could not see. In the good old days every
house was haunted and every field bewitched, and it was the haunt and the
bewitchment that was the safety of the house and the land. Domestic
religion was the keeper of domestic wealth and life. It was the fear of he
Lares that gave sacredness to property and made theft and trespass not
only a crime but a sacrilege.

"This sacredness of property was religion in its origin. It existed for
centuries before it gave rise to the civil laws that are now its
security... Long before the reign of the law we had the reign of Lar. Each
House-Father, absolute lord and master of his own house and land, was under
the protection of his Lares; the fear of them and the dread of them was
upon all the country-round about. If his lands were seized by a stronger
man than he, his Lares were expelled from the land, the graves of his
ancestors violated, and he and his household were either killed or reduced
to slavery.

"This relation of the family to the land, and of the House-Father to the
family, classified ancient society as master and slave, patron and client,
patrician and plebeian... With the institution of the family, there came
into existence a class of out-family men and women,: runaway slaves,
prodigal sons, remnants of broken families, -men and women without land,
without Manes, without Lares, having no place at any family altar...
Private property in land, the basic principle of the family, was the
fruitful cause of poverty, with the wretchedness and degradation that
always follow in its camp. That same poverty is to-day destroying the
family and changing the face of civilization.

"Private property in land has, in the course of time, passed out of the
keeping of the family Lares into the care of the civil law; what man had
once to do for himself society now does for him. The Keepers of the Gates
are no longer the Lares but the lawyers...

"The Lares of the archaic world, if they still haunt the earth and hover in
the air, must look down in sad, bewildered wonderment upon the modern
world, which to them must seem a mad world, wherein all sane principles
have been driven out by crazy notions. Here are millions upon millions of
landless men with wives and children combining to secure the title of a few
landlords to their land; these landlords doing nothing with or for the
land but to take from it rents and profits. These two things, idle
landlords and starving people, condemn the world as it is and call for a
new race of Lares to visit the vengeance of the gods upon these profaners
of the land."

The Penates

"The hearth is the heart of the family life. To keep the fire alive on the
hearth is the bounden duty of the family gods. We of the modern world have
lost altogether those conception that made "hearth' and "altar" sacred
words. Domestic religion sanctified domestic life. The Penates, who were
the Spirits of Ancestors, were the Keepers of the Fire and of the Store...

"It was the domestication of fire that changed man from a savage, living
upon roots and raw flesh, into a civilized being, feasting on roast beef
and baked potatoes. It was the capture and taming of fire that made
possible the home and the family. Because of this, the Penates, the
Keepers of the Fire, are the best beloved of the family gods. With them
the family was intimate as it gathered around the hearth when the day's
work was over; they were present when the House-Father and House -Mother
gave bread and meat to the children and the slaves, and after the dinner
was over the Penates inspired the members of the household to speak words
of love and wisdom one to another. The husband could have a secret from
his wife, the wife from the husband, but to the Penates all secrets were
open. The light of their fire penetrated to the marrow to the bones. All
profanation of family life was an offense to the Penates, to be punished by
the heat of fever and the cold of the chill.

"While the family slept, the Penates watched; all through the night the
dull glow of their life was seen in the slow-burning brand lying in the
ashes, that kept the fire alive on the hearth. If that fire died out, the
Penates were disgraced, and the family shamed; for the life of the fire
once gone was not easily restored. In these days of matches and
electricity the smouldering brand has lost its usefulness and, therefore,
its sacredness....Our modern improvements have improved these lovely gods
out of existence.

"The Penates were not only Keepers of the Fire, they were also the
Guardians of the Store. It was their duty to inspire the cook with skill
to make delicate dishes for the family able, to watch the meat before the
fire, to scare the rats from the cupboard. In the archaic world the gods
were more useful than ornamental. The men and women of that world would
laugh our gods to corn and think of them with pity, - gods shut up in
churches, having nothing to do but to listen to the droning of prayers and
the confessions of sins; gods who pass their dreary existence away from the
warmth of the hearth, the smell of the cooking, the chatter of the maids
and the stir of the family life! A god upon a great white throne, with
cherubim and seraphim bowing before him, may have power and dignity, but
for comfort and good-fellowship one must go to the god who sits by the
fire, inhales the odor of spice, and the flavor of the bread and the cake
and the meat that are cooking in the kitchen. Such a god can understand
the tribulations of the cook and the annoyances of the mistress; he knows
by experience that fire burns and ginger is hot in the mouth. All other
religion is cold and formal beside this intimate religion of the hearth."

Quoted from: Crapsey, Algernon Sidney. The Ways of the Gods. New York: The
International Press, 1920. (Out of Print. Definitely an author ahead
of his time).
Vale and Bright Blessings, Iustina Luciania Orbianna




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	ATTN (Religio Romana): Idus Aprilis (April 13th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:09:41 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action or
public business can take place.

The month of Aprilis is sacred to Venus.

The Ides of every month are sacred to Iuppiter. An white ewe is sacrificed
to Iuppiter by the Flamen Dialis.

Pax Deorum vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greetings....
From:	"Rick Brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:51:50 PDT

Salve Gaius Quinctius Flamininus: Welcome to Nova Roma. Thanks for sharing
the quote from Scirnis.
Vale
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

>From: "William Dowie" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=093176235078082031072212129024166089177098204046209130" >William_Dowie@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] Greetings....
>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:43:20 -0400
>
>... and introductions. I am Gaius Quinctius Flamininus, new citizen of Nova
>Roma, and new to the list.
>
>"Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any
>man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of
>my life and the day of my death were fated long ago."
>-Anonymous lines from For Scirnis
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with
>convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the
>first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
>additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate.
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3099/4/_/61050/_/955598894/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3099/4/_/61050/_/955598894/</a>
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>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Lares and Di Penates
From:	"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:03:06 +0200

Ave

I- Greetings, I'm a brend new citizen of Nova Roma, my citizen name is Ianus
Querius Armoricus Lutecio.

As my name indicates it, I'm from Gallia (France) and live in Lutetia
(Paris), but my origins are from the west part of France, once named
Aremorica.

II - To answer your question, as far as I know the Lares were the souls of
the ancestors of the family and the cult was practiced into the house by the
pater familias at important dates and for specific occasions. But the
protection of the Lares extended to the outside of the house.
As for the Petates, they are the specific deities of the house. The word
itself can be used to name the deities as the home itself.
Quote: " a suis diis penatibus praeceps" which can be translated into "throw
out of his house" or "far from his penates"

Vale

Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio

Subject:	Greeting from a new citizen
From:	"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:50:00 +0200

Salvete Omnes

I am a new citizen of Nova Roma and would like to introduce myself.

My citizen name is Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio.
I live in Lutetia (fluctuat nec mergitur) in Gallia (est gerere, Paris in France).

My origins are in the western part of France, a region nowadays called Britany for the antique close links between the gallian peoples of Britany across the channel sea. The Roman used to call this region Aremorica. My ancestors were probably from the tribe of the Brits ? who knows ? but my mother has Greek origins which makes of me a weird melange.

Here is the introduction.
I hope I could proove myself a useful, honorable and efficient citizen.

Omni deorum honores habo
Valete

I. Querius Armoricus Lutecio







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greeting from a new citizen
From:
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:13:43 EDT

Salve Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio,

Welcome to Nova Roma. Iulius Titinius Antonius sum. If you have any
questions feel free to ask me (but if you want a correct answer you probably
should ask Sulla LoL :-) ). We're having elections very soon. However I
have already forgotten what we are voting for except for the position of
Curule Aedile. I hope you get to like Nova Roma!

Vale

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.

Subject:	Re: Lares and Di Penates
From:	Jennifer E Hunt <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=194176114182127134138038203001129208071" >riturtle@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:03:17 -0400

Salve, Silvane!

"Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a> asks:
> I'm having difficulting sorting out the "spheres of influence" of
> the Lares and the Di Penates. As near as I can figure, the Lares
> would be more outside the house, and the Di Penates more inside the
> house, but they'd sort of overlap. Yes? No?

My take (from the research I've done) is that the Lares originally were
land spirits. When, say for example, Manius (or Joe Blow, if you prefer)
came settled on his particular parcel of land in Italia (or wherever), he
was squatting where the Lares had already lived, and in so doing may have
displaced them. Thus, in order to maintain favorable relationships with
them, he offered him the hospitality of his home and honored them with a
daily ritual as the resident "spirits"/guardians of his home. Romans
were great ones for working out wonderful solutions for such conundrums.


As for the Penates, they are much more domestic in nature -- much more
like Vesta, and some would even argue that Vesta is one of the Penates
(I'm not one who would, though). They are the resident
"spirits"/guardians of the food stores.

The Lares and Penates were similar in that they were both household
"spirits" (sorry; I don't like that term, but can't really think of a
better one), but the Lares were tied to the land, while the Penates were
tied to the household. Thus, if Manius were to move, his Penates would
naturally go along with him, although it is doubtful whether the Lares
would also go with him. I've moved around a lot, and it sure seems to me
that I am introduced to a different set of Lares everywhere I live. Some
I get along with better than others. Most are just happy to be
recognized once again -- it's been a long time for them.

Another question (which I have yet to answer for myself) is whether there
is one Lars per household, or two, or several . . . I remain open-minded
on this, but lean more toward plurality for the time being.

In any case, these are my studied opinions and others may disagree. I
have written a few articles on Religio Romana which may be more
illuminating to you, and hopefully, they will begin appearing in the
Eagle before too long.

Vale,

Jenni Hunt
a/k/a Iulia Ovidia Luna
Pontifex et Aedile Plebis, Nova Roma
Rhode Island Provincia Legate