| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Latin Accents and Nicolaus |
| From: |
"J.P." <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:45:34 -0700 |
|
Hm -
The tome which is most consulted around here at the University is (I
don't know the spelling or the author names, but it sounds phonetically
like) William and Greenhowe. It is a comprehensive latin grammar and the
chair of the Classics department swears by it.
S. Troicus Ductor
> From: "Bradius V. Maurus III" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=014130014161146028033082190" >bvm3@--------</a>
> Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:37:47 +0200
> To: novaroma <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Latin Accents and Nicolaus
>=20
> Salvete Omnes!
>=20
> Two grammatical (or at least orthographical and
> phonological) points for fellow Latin pedants:
>=20
> I was rather surprised by the fact that it was recently
> proposed to mark the long vowels in the Roman rituals with
> circumflexes, since coding macrons is rather difficult. I
> have no objection to this; it is also done with Romanised
> Japanese on occasion. However, I want to remind everyone
> that the ancient Romans sometimes (inconsistently and
> fitfully) actually did mark long vowels with a supersign
> called the APEX. The form of these apices was very close to
> that of the modern acute accent. There would be no harm in
> using these again, and they are easily codeable, being used
> in French and a few English words from French, e.g.
> "fianc=E9". The only problem might be that in some Catholic
> materials the acute is used to indicate the ictus accent,
> not the vowel length per se. But surely one could clarify
> that to the reader and so use the original Roman mark.
>=20
> Names such as Nicolaus and Iaroslaus are rather special in
> their terminations, and are declined (and here the acute
> indicates an accent, not necessarily a long vowel): Nom.
> "N=EDcolaus" ("-laus" =3D 1 syllable), Gen. "Nichol=E1i" (4
> syllables), Dat. "Nicol=E1o" (4), Acc. "Nicol=E1um (4), Abl.
> "Nicol=E1o" (4), Voc. "N=EDcolae" (4, i.e. Ni-co-la-e). It is
> disturbing to contemplate an accent on the syllable *before*
> the antepenult (!), but this is indeed so indicated in a
> book by A. Schildknecht SMB entitled "Vivum Latinum:
> Grammatica" (Hualien 1966/67), who devotes almost half a
> page to this class of proper nominal ending. It is my belief
> that this was a lapsus calami (the book is really a
> published manuscript), and that the vocative is really
> accented "Nicol=E1e", which would be consistent with the other
> oblique-case accentuation. But at least about the
> orthography there is no doubt and I have other sources. Does
> anyone have any confirmation or disconfirmation about the
> vocative accent, though?
>=20
> Soon to be a citizen, I hope, I remain everyone's
>=20
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> in Silesia Superiori
>=20
>=20
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get your bargains at AndysGarage.com!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/2579/4/_/61050/_/955841873/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/2579/4/_/61050/_/955841873/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
>=20
|
| Subject: |
Latest Citizen numbers |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:56:12 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes....
Current count of citizens is at 432.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
|
| Subject: |
Senate news |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:55:30 -0500 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
The Senate has been rather quiet lately except for some private matters
concerning individual citizens who prefer not to have them discussed
publically.
It was noted that another on-line organization was incorrectly claiming
Nova Roma as a member. They were officially asked to correct this.
There has been discussion of the need for more "outreach" in terms of
having Nova Roma exchange links with other Roman sites and have more of a
presence on the Net.
There was some discussion of whether a certain citizen might be
deliberately agitating on the main list, but that situation seems to have
resolved itself relatively harmlessly.
And then there was an indignant posting to the Senate from someone in
Italy who angrily announced that Italy is not a province of Nova Roma,
etc.. (My Latin is much too limited to fully appreciate what this
character was trying to say.)
It appears that the doors of the Temple of Janus remain closed currently.
The Republic is at peace.
Valete
Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis
|
| Subject: |
I just felt like saying Salve... |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:07:37 EDT |
|
Salve everyone,
As those who remember ( like anyone would want to remember), I was (and still
somewhat to an extent) was this naive NR citizen who went by the name of
Avalonia. Well not to worry everyone I'm still here. (You can all go run and
hide now). Due to certain experiences of the past, I realized that I should
do more research on my own and not ask so many questions. For the past few
months I've been studying many different aspects of roman history. Yes I will
admit it, when I first came to NR I only had some knowledge in the Religio.
(Yes I know it's shameful.) Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that I've
become an overnight " know it all" when it comes to Roman History. It's just
I'm a little more informed that's all, and I hope to actively become involved
in this e-mail listing. Also I would like to welcome the return of Augustina
Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia, it's been so long since I have seen her post
anything. For a while I thought she disappeared to the " Point of No Return."
But as a member of the Iulia Caesaria Gens it would be nice to recieve a
e-mail from her even if it is from time to time. I will admit it I have been
concerned about her. I know you all must be getting bored of me so I'll wrap
this up, for old times sake Sulla I will ask this question. Now that I am
citizen where on earth are my voter codes? ( That I couldn't resist Sulla and
you know it!! LOL!)
Vale,
the former citizen known as Avalonia
now morphed into
Aeternia Iulia Caesaria Caelesta Draconia
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] I just felt like saying Salve... |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:44:34 -0700 |
|
Salve
E-mail me privately and I will get you your voter code. :)
Sulla Felix
Censor
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137028113185078198113149000077114253071048139" >Cy--------Rose@--------</--------; wrote:
> Salve everyone,
>
> As those who remember ( like anyone would want to remember), I was (and still
> somewhat to an extent) was this naive NR citizen who went by the name of
> Avalonia. Well not to worry everyone I'm still here. (You can all go run and
> hide now). Due to certain experiences of the past, I realized that I should
> do more research on my own and not ask so many questions. For the past few
> months I've been studying many different aspects of roman history. Yes I will
> admit it, when I first came to NR I only had some knowledge in the Religio.
> (Yes I know it's shameful.) Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that I've
> become an overnight " know it all" when it comes to Roman History. It's just
> I'm a little more informed that's all, and I hope to actively become involved
> in this e-mail listing. Also I would like to welcome the return of Augustina
> Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia, it's been so long since I have seen her post
> anything. For a while I thought she disappeared to the " Point of No Return."
> But as a member of the Iulia Caesaria Gens it would be nice to recieve a
> e-mail from her even if it is from time to time. I will admit it I have been
> concerned about her. I know you all must be getting bored of me so I'll wrap
> this up, for old times sake Sulla I will ask this question. Now that I am
> citizen where on earth are my voter codes? ( That I couldn't resist Sulla and
> you know it!! LOL!)
>
> Vale,
> the former citizen known as Avalonia
> now morphed into
> Aeternia Iulia Caesaria Caelesta Draconia
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from
> Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/955912063/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/955912063/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: 'Correct Latin' (Was Latin in the Rites) |
| From: |
| Date: |
Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:35:12 +0100 |
|
Salve Merulle atque salvete mei alii
> Salvete Nicolaue Moravi et alii
>
> Now that we know that I was wrong about Gaie, I wonder again about
Nicolaue.
> I would appreciate a correction on that if anyone has it.
- I like 'Nicolai'. It seems to me to resonate best. But then, as
aforementioned, when is correct what?
> >As a semi-educated provincial, I stand up for our right to continue this
> >pleasant (and authentically traditional) idiosyncracy. Here in
Clausentum,
> >for example, we pronounce our 'V's as 'V's, not as 'U's (a late Roman
use
> >fairly common to north western Europe).
>
> O Vado! Don't tell me that you pronounce the v in Latin vinum like the v
in
> English vine! I refuse to play croquet with the golden apples of the
> Hesperides for even a mere decade with you if you persist in this.
- You mean, you've been mentally addressing me as 'Wado' all this time?!
Ohh... let's not worry about it. I rarely speak when playing croquet anyway.
It spoils one's concentration, and the game demands much. Anyway, as long as
we use English, you won't be outraged by my awful Wulgate accent :-).
> I am sure that any Roman, from whatever province or period, would giggle
at
> my pronunciation, just like they did in Uxbridge. But I cannot, and shall
> not, pronounce Latin as though it were English. Yuck!
- Vah! (Or 'Wah!' if you must)... I bet you don't speak English with an
English accent. Do I complain about that? I do not. I contend, mi amice,
that Latin with a Massachusetts accent, or a New Hampshire one (whichever
you have), is just as valid as any other. Especially if the syntax and
grammar are faultless, as in your case. I don't defend my grammatically
barbarous Latin, just my right to pronounce it the way that seems fitting to
me. The gods so far have signified no visible objection to my prayers when
spoken aloud. We have a saying in Britannia: an accent is something you
never have, only other people.
Vale bene (sorry - wale bene),
Vad(edepol!!) Wado.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Greeting from a new citizen |
| From: |
| Date: |
Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:55:15 +0100 |
|
Salve Iane Queri Armorice! Nobis scripsisti:
> I am a new citizen of Nova Roma and would like to introduce myself.
>
> My citizen name is Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio.
> I live in Lutetia (fluctuat nec mergitur) in Gallia (est gerere, Paris in
France).
- Salvere iubeo In Nova Roma! Gens Moravia reside in Clausentum, Britannia
(Southampton), with the exception of my cousin Diana Aventina, who is in
Gallia Belgica.
> My origins are in the western part of France, a region nowadays called
Britany for the antique close links between the gallian peoples of Britany
across the channel sea. The Roman used to call this region Aremorica. My
ancestors were probably from the tribe of the Brits ? who knows ? but my
mother has Greek origins which makes of me a weird melange.
- Southern Brits. and Northern Gauls are brothers, as far as I see it:
consider the Atrebates and Belgae tribes of central southern Britain, who
also have senior territorial associations with their namesakes in
Northeastern Gallia Lugdunensis and Gallia Belgica. So... fraternal
greetings!
> Here is the introduction.
> I hope I could prove myself a useful, honorable and efficient citizen.
- there are many ways in which you could do this, not least by translating
choice parts of our website into French. As an Assensus to Consul M.
Minucius Audens, with a particular responsibility for extending awareness of
Nova Roma in Europe, I would be very pleased to discuss with you any ideas
you might have in this respect.
> Omni deorum honores habo
- Vere ius et dictum est! Utinam dii deaeque omnes te semper bene ament,
Nicolaus Moravius Vado
Paterfamilias gentilis Moraviae
Assensus Consularis
Proprator Provinciae Britanniae
And another Graeco-Romano-Celt :-)
|
| Subject: |
Latin |
| From: |
"Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:35:01 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes!
I'm very grateful to the various people who've responded to my posted offer
to accentuate the Latin text of the rites, if that is useful and welcome.
I also made, in a private e-mail to the Pontifex Maximus, some rather
impertinent comments about the some of the Latin, which I have since
withdrawn. -- And when, O gods, will I remember the "Save as Draft" option
in my e-mail program? -- Chalk it up to the brashness of a wild Northerner
who's only half-Romanized, with all the over-confidence that implies. I'll
try to keep it in check from here on out.
One of the reasons, besides the Religio, that I joined Nova Roma *was* the
Latin: I get to learn a new language, which I love (I'm a language-junkie,
we're an odd breed to begin with), and a language that has such very many
wonderful things written in it. How great! And after studying Sanskrit, how
refreshingly easy! :) (No pervasive sound changes (sandhi), no new script to
learn, only six cases instead of eight, only two numbers instead of three...
wow.)
As I see it, there are a number of ways to accentuate Nova Roman Latin.
1. We can use either an acute (á) or a circumflex (â) accent to mark the
long vowels. Apparently something similar to the acute was used by the
Antiqui Romani, and the circumflex is often used as a substitute for the
macron in transcribing Japanese and Sanskrit. As I see it, if we want to be
more strictly traditional, the acute might be better; if not, it really
boils down to which accent a majority of Nova Romans find more esthetically
pleasing. There is a further option of using another accent, perhaps a grave
(à) to mark stressed short vowels, though I personally don't see the need
for it, as traditionally stress is determined by the presence or absence of
long vowels in particular syllables.
2. We can write the long vowels with capital letters, also an Antiquan
practice -- though one that may look odd or unpleasing to modern eyes. In
that case, we probably *wouldn't* be able to capitalize proper names in
Latin text, as that would blur the long/short distinction in initial vowels
in such names as, well, Albius. (And if we're going to be *that*
traditional, we'd probably have to throw out both 'j' and 'v'. Who's ready
to write "saluete"? Although I've seen a couple of Latin books that do just
that.)
3. Another option that a Jewish friend of mine pointed out takes Israeli
Hebrew as its example. My friend says that Moses probably wouldn't
understand one word in ten of spoken Modern Hebrew, but he could read it --
allowing for neologisms and borrowings that have crept in since his time --
and, more importantly for Jews, any educated Israeli can read what Moses
wrote. Perhaps, eventually, there will be Nova Romans born to gentes who
will grow up hearing some sort of Latin as a cradle-speech. Provided that
the writing does not change, the *spoken* pronunciation might vary quite
widely.
With that in mind, and knowing some of the history of the various Romance
languages, another option might be to assume that the long/short distinction
will die out, and simply use an accent to show the stressed syllable; the
number of accents needed could be cut drastically by using a rule similar to
that of Spanish, whereby the accent would be assumed to fall on the
second-to-last vowel unless a different accent is indicated -- the
diphthongs "ae" and "au" would probably count as one vowel for this purpose.
The sound of the language would become a bit staccato without the sonority
of the lengthened vowels, perhaps, but no more so than Italian can be.
This also ties into the question -- thorny as it is -- if a distinctively
Nova Roman accent is desireable in the pronunciation of Latin. It rather
depends, too, I think, on what use the Latin is to be put: Manius Ludator
and Gaia Ludatrix, unilingual English-speakers recreating Roman games with
and for other unilingual English-speakers, probably aren't going to need
much Latin beyond their names and a few phrases, plus a prayer or two if
there are no priests about.
Pontifices Religionis Romanae, on the other hand, are likely to need rather
more.
Anyway, here is the Ablution Prayer (unaltered, Maxime!) in these various
schemes of accentuation:
Circumflex = long vowel:
Haec aqua â corpôre impûritâtês, modô simile plumbô mutandô ad aurum,
elluat. Purgâ mentem. Purgâ carnem. Purgâ animum. Ita est!
Acute = long vowel:
Haec aqua á corpóre impúritátés, modó simile plumbó mutandó ad aurum,
elluat. Purgá mentem. Purgá carnem. Purgá animum. Ita est!
Capital = long vowel:
haec aqua A corpOre impUritAtEs, modO simile plumbO mutandO ad aurum,
elluat. purgA mentem. purgA carnem. purgA animum. ita est!
Grave accent = stressed vowel (if not second-to-last; "au" and "ae" count as
one vowel for accentuation):
Haec aqua a corpore impuritates, modo sìmile plumbo mutando ad aurum,
èlluat. Purga mentem. Purga carnem. Purga ànimum. Ita est!
Please pick or pan, as appropriate.
Valete (Walete? Ualete?) :)
G. Albius Gadelicus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Latin accentuation |
| From: |
"Chad Kieffer" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=219202020056021131184218141036129208" >--------ffe@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:57:44 -0500 |
|
Salvete!
I think the circumflex would be best. The capital letters for long
syllables look bizarre. The acute accent for long syllables would almost
certainly be mistaken for stress markers. Another option is to use a
metrical Latin font -- which has the necessary long and short marks, as
well as accent marks. I think there is a freeware one on the net somewhere
on a Latin poetry site. I could probably find it again. It's just that
anyone viewing the page would need to download the font.
Valete,
C Cordius Symmachus
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Barr <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
To: Nova Roma List <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 4:35 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Latin
> Salvete Omnes!
>
> I'm very grateful to the various people who've responded to my posted
offer
> to accentuate the Latin text of the rites, if that is useful and welcome.
>
> I also made, in a private e-mail to the Pontifex Maximus, some rather
> impertinent comments about the some of the Latin, which I have since
> withdrawn. -- And when, O gods, will I remember the "Save as Draft" option
> in my e-mail program? -- Chalk it up to the brashness of a wild Northerner
> who's only half-Romanized, with all the over-confidence that implies. I'll
> try to keep it in check from here on out.
>
> One of the reasons, besides the Religio, that I joined Nova Roma *was* the
> Latin: I get to learn a new language, which I love (I'm a language-junkie,
> we're an odd breed to begin with), and a language that has such very many
> wonderful things written in it. How great! And after studying Sanskrit,
how
> refreshingly easy! :) (No pervasive sound changes (sandhi), no new script
to
> learn, only six cases instead of eight, only two numbers instead of
three...
> wow.)
>
> As I see it, there are a number of ways to accentuate Nova Roman Latin.
>
> 1. We can use either an acute (á) or a circumflex (â) accent to mark the
> long vowels. Apparently something similar to the acute was used by the
> Antiqui Romani, and the circumflex is often used as a substitute for the
> macron in transcribing Japanese and Sanskrit. As I see it, if we want to
be
> more strictly traditional, the acute might be better; if not, it really
> boils down to which accent a majority of Nova Romans find more
esthetically
> pleasing. There is a further option of using another accent, perhaps a
grave
> (à) to mark stressed short vowels, though I personally don't see the need
> for it, as traditionally stress is determined by the presence or absence
of
> long vowels in particular syllables.
>
> 2. We can write the long vowels with capital letters, also an Antiquan
> practice -- though one that may look odd or unpleasing to modern eyes. In
> that case, we probably *wouldn't* be able to capitalize proper names in
> Latin text, as that would blur the long/short distinction in initial
vowels
> in such names as, well, Albius. (And if we're going to be *that*
> traditional, we'd probably have to throw out both 'j' and 'v'. Who's ready
> to write "saluete"? Although I've seen a couple of Latin books that do
just
> that.)
>
> 3. Another option that a Jewish friend of mine pointed out takes Israeli
> Hebrew as its example. My friend says that Moses probably wouldn't
> understand one word in ten of spoken Modern Hebrew, but he could read
it --
> allowing for neologisms and borrowings that have crept in since his
time --
> and, more importantly for Jews, any educated Israeli can read what Moses
> wrote. Perhaps, eventually, there will be Nova Romans born to gentes who
> will grow up hearing some sort of Latin as a cradle-speech. Provided that
> the writing does not change, the *spoken* pronunciation might vary quite
> widely.
>
> With that in mind, and knowing some of the history of the various Romance
> languages, another option might be to assume that the long/short
distinction
> will die out, and simply use an accent to show the stressed syllable; the
> number of accents needed could be cut drastically by using a rule similar
to
> that of Spanish, whereby the accent would be assumed to fall on the
> second-to-last vowel unless a different accent is indicated -- the
> diphthongs "ae" and "au" would probably count as one vowel for this
purpose.
> The sound of the language would become a bit staccato without the sonority
> of the lengthened vowels, perhaps, but no more so than Italian can be.
>
> This also ties into the question -- thorny as it is -- if a distinctively
> Nova Roman accent is desireable in the pronunciation of Latin. It rather
> depends, too, I think, on what use the Latin is to be put: Manius Ludator
> and Gaia Ludatrix, unilingual English-speakers recreating Roman games with
> and for other unilingual English-speakers, probably aren't going to need
> much Latin beyond their names and a few phrases, plus a prayer or two if
> there are no priests about.
>
> Pontifices Religionis Romanae, on the other hand, are likely to need
rather
> more.
>
> Anyway, here is the Ablution Prayer (unaltered, Maxime!) in these various
> schemes of accentuation:
>
> Circumflex = long vowel:
> Haec aqua â corpôre impûritâtês, modô simile plumbô mutandô ad aurum,
> elluat. Purgâ mentem. Purgâ carnem. Purgâ animum. Ita est!
>
> Acute = long vowel:
> Haec aqua á corpóre impúritátés, modó simile plumbó mutandó ad aurum,
> elluat. Purgá mentem. Purgá carnem. Purgá animum. Ita est!
>
> Capital = long vowel:
> haec aqua A corpOre impUritAtEs, modO simile plumbO mutandO ad aurum,
> elluat. purgA mentem. purgA carnem. purgA animum. ita est!
>
> Grave accent = stressed vowel (if not second-to-last; "au" and "ae" count
as
> one vowel for accentuation):
> Haec aqua a corpore impuritates, modo sìmile plumbo mutando ad aurum,
> èlluat. Purga mentem. Purga carnem. Purga ànimum. Ita est!
>
> Please pick or pan, as appropriate.
>
> Valete (Walete? Ualete?) :)
> G. Albius Gadelicus
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Here Bunny Bunny...
> Check it Out
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3123/4/_/61050/_/955921965/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3123/4/_/61050/_/955921965/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
|
