| Subject: |
Re: Latin |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:40:14 -0700 |
|
Salve, G. Albius Gaedilicus.
I wish to laud your efforts in clarifying the murky waters of
Nova Roma Latin. I have decided to finally chime in on the matter
of accentuation notations. I hope you do not think me an utter
negativist for saying that it is my belief that not notations
should be used in our texts. I have always found them to be a
hindrance to reading and, I must confess, I get confused as to
just what the heck they are telling me to do. Learning by ear
is always the best, and there are tapes available for reasonable
sums. Eventually Nova Romans will be meeting more often and,
hopefully, using "some" Latin. From the Latin I have heard from
some of our fellow citizens over these short years I can assure
you that the problem has not been noting the accentuation. Not
at all. LOL =({[;-) And the inability to recognize the words was
not that my ear and brain were not set to "Latin".
What the Nova Roma Latin sites need is to be proofed by someone
who knows Latin in order to correct the errors in basic grammar,
as well as typing. Such as -- is it "quod bonum faustum, felix,
fortunatem"?
or "quod bonum faustum, felictatem, fortunatem"?
or is it flawed. This is the direction I believe would be very
helpful to spreading Latin literacy.
I work with many people who are not native English speakers.
In some cases it is only a matter of accent -- pronunciation
and accentuation, etc.. In other cases it is vocabulary.
Most often I can understand what is being said.
Bene vale.
C. Aelius Ericius.
post scriptum:
I believe Nova Roma Latin should try to use the /v/ sound
for the "v" letter. As someone pointed out near the beginning
of this endeavor, pronouncing the "v" in the Ciceronian /w/ way
made the name of our organization sound as though one were
talking about a thing that is without scent. --|([;-)
CAE
--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, "Doug Barr" dhkbarr@i... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes!
>
> I'm very grateful to the various people who've responded to my
posted offer
> to accentuate the Latin text of the rites, if that is useful and
welcome.
>
> I also made, in a private e-mail to the Pontifex Maximus, some
rather
> impertinent comments about the some of the Latin, which I have since
> withdrawn. -- And when, O gods, will I remember the "Save as Draft"
option
> in my e-mail program? -- Chalk it up to the brashness of a wild
Northerner
> who's only half-Romanized, with all the over-confidence that
implies. I'll
> try to keep it in check from here on out.
>
> One of the reasons, besides the Religio, that I joined Nova Roma
*was* the
> Latin: I get to learn a new language, which I love (I'm a
language-junkie,
> we're an odd breed to begin with), and a language that has such very
many
> wonderful things written in it. How great! And after studying
Sanskrit, how
> refreshingly easy! :) (No pervasive sound changes (sandhi), no new
script to
> learn, only six cases instead of eight, only two numbers instead of
three...
> wow.)
>
> As I see it, there are a number of ways to accentuate Nova Roman
Latin.
>
> 1. We can use either an acute (á) or a circumflex (â) accent to mark
the
> long vowels. Apparently something similar to the acute was used by
the
> Antiqui Romani, and the circumflex is often used as a substitute for
the
> macron in transcribing Japanese and Sanskrit. As I see it, if we
want to be
> more strictly traditional, the acute might be better; if not, it
really
> boils down to which accent a majority of Nova Romans find more
esthetically
> pleasing. There is a further option of using another accent, perhaps
a grave
> (à) to mark stressed short vowels, though I personally don't see the
need
> for it, as traditionally stress is determined by the presence or
absence of
> long vowels in particular syllables.
>
> 2. We can write the long vowels with capital letters, also an
Antiquan
> practice -- though one that may look odd or unpleasing to modern
eyes. In
> that case, we probably *wouldn't* be able to capitalize proper names
in
> Latin text, as that would blur the long/short distinction in initial
vowels
> in such names as, well, Albius. (And if we're going to be *that*
> traditional, we'd probably have to throw out both 'j' and 'v'. Who's
ready
> to write "saluete"? Although I've seen a couple of Latin books that
do just
> that.)
>
> 3. Another option that a Jewish friend of mine pointed out takes
Israeli
> Hebrew as its example. My friend says that Moses probably wouldn't
> understand one word in ten of spoken Modern Hebrew, but he could
read it --
> allowing for neologisms and borrowings that have crept in since his
time --
> and, more importantly for Jews, any educated Israeli can read what
Moses
> wrote. Perhaps, eventually, there will be Nova Romans born to gentes
who
> will grow up hearing some sort of Latin as a cradle-speech. Provided
that
> the writing does not change, the *spoken* pronunciation might vary
quite
> widely.
>
> With that in mind, and knowing some of the history of the various
Romance
> languages, another option might be to assume that the long/short
distinction
> will die out, and simply use an accent to show the stressed
syllable; the
> number of accents needed could be cut drastically by using a rule
similar to
> that of Spanish, whereby the accent would be assumed to fall on the
> second-to-last vowel unless a different accent is indicated -- the
> diphthongs "ae" and "au" would probably count as one vowel for this
purpose.
> The sound of the language would become a bit staccato without the
sonority
> of the lengthened vowels, perhaps, but no more so than Italian can
be.
>
> This also ties into the question -- thorny as it is -- if a
distinctively
> Nova Roman accent is desireable in the pronunciation of Latin. It
rather
> depends, too, I think, on what use the Latin is to be put: Manius
Ludator
> and Gaia Ludatrix, unilingual English-speakers recreating Roman
games with
> and for other unilingual English-speakers, probably aren't going to
need
> much Latin beyond their names and a few phrases, plus a prayer or
two if
> there are no priests about.
>
> Pontifices Religionis Romanae, on the other hand, are likely to need
rather
> more.
>
> Anyway, here is the Ablution Prayer (unaltered, Maxime!) in these
various
> schemes of accentuation:
>
> Circumflex = long vowel:
> Haec aqua â corpôre impûritâtês, modô simile plumbô mutandô ad
aurum,
> elluat. Purgâ mentem. Purgâ carnem. Purgâ animum. Ita est!
>
> Acute = long vowel:
> Haec aqua á corpóre impúritátés, modó simile plumbó mutandó ad
aurum,
> elluat. Purgá mentem. Purgá carnem. Purgá animum. Ita est!
>
> Capital = long vowel:
> haec aqua A corpOre impUritAtEs, modO simile plumbO mutandO ad
aurum,
> elluat. purgA mentem. purgA carnem. purgA animum. ita est!
>
> Grave accent = stressed vowel (if not second-to-last; "au" and "ae"
count as
> one vowel for accentuation):
> Haec aqua a corpore impuritates, modo sìmile plumbo mutando ad
aurum,
> èlluat. Purga mentem. Purga carnem. Purga ànimum. Ita est!
>
> Please pick or pan, as appropriate.
>
> Valete (Walete? Ualete?) :)
> G. Albius Gadelicus
|
| Subject: |
Munus Florae Update |
| From: |
"J.P." <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:37:43 -0700 |
|
Salvete!
I wanted to give everyone an update with how the Gladiator project is
shaping up. This information along with some pictures will be up soon on
the website at www.geocities.com/sclcc/
The Munus Florae, to be held sometime during the Ludi Floralia, is a
sequence of Gladiatorial combats for a ceremonial purpose. I believe the
term munus denotes specifically that the fights are for a ceremonial
purpose, rather than the programmed executions of damnatio ad arenam where
thousands of criminals were given weapons and made to fight each other.
Munera began as a rite to honor the memory of the deceased, where after
the death of important men slaves trained in the fighting arts were made to
fight to the death, with their blood acting as a sacrifice to the memory of
the deceased.
Later, under the Republic, munera were given by rich families in honor
of anscestors, good news, regligious events, and really any reason to have a
party. Rich families would buy fighters from lanistae, propriators of
gladiatorial schools called ludi. Some families would even maintain their
own ludi, sometimes with hundreds of gladiators training under doctores, men
who were skilled in fighting and often were former gladiators.
Under the Empire, however, gladiatorial games became entirely a state
function, and in the heyday of the games were eventually made a right of the
citizen. Under the empire, games were given by the state daily, and a state
procurator (I believe that's the latin term) would buy the requisite amount
of men from the lanistae, who made a great deal of money. Eventually,
however, with rising concern over the large camps of fighting men which the
largest of the ludi had become, the training of gladiators also became an
entirely state-based enterprise.
In the spirit of the Republican nature of Nova Roma, the Ludus Florae
will be put on by gens Troica, to honor not only Flora, but our joining Nova
Roma. We've been working on this for a while, and we can't wait to show off
some pictures on our site for you all to see. Unfortunately, pictures of
last friday's training session did not turn out (bad film maybe?). That's
too bad, I really nailed Paganus Aureus a good one with a spear.
We're still deciding on a venue, but with luck we will be able to find a
place which will have enough room for some spectacular fighting and good
camera angles.
Fabius Maximus has gotten in touch with me regarding a possible
rebroadcast of the games online at a future time - this would be terriffic.
If you are interested in (and would perhaps commit to) attending the
games in the Los Angeles area, drop me a line at <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a> . If people
were willing to show up, we might be able to swing a nicer venue. :-D
Oh - We'll be there at the upcoming California meeting in San Gabriel.
We'll bring some weapons by.
-S. Troicus Ductor
"Vivamus dum licet bene esse"
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Greeting from a new citizen |
| From: |
"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:03:23 +0200 |
|
Ave Nicolae Moravii Vade
Thank you for your response.
I would be delighted to help by providing a French translation of some parts
of the website. The point is that I'm not a professionnal translator, in
fact I have a scientifical background, but I think I would be able to do an
acceptable job. In fact, I work as an actuary (financial engineer) in a
financial company. The latin etymology of the word actuary is "actuarius": a
person who, according to my sources, was in charge of record keeping,
accounting, and writing the reports of what was said and decided during the
Senate sessions, and (assumption) translating them... The actuarius was also
a military intendant. It would be funny to make history repeating...
Just let me know the parts you which to have translated, I'll see what I can
do for you.
Unfortunately, my primarly lack is a lack of time, so I have to warn you
that the job could take quite a long time to complete. Anyway, "qui volens
potens est".
Just one more question, I'd like to know if there are other French Nova
Roman citizens ?
Omni deorum honores quoque habo
Vale
I. Querius Armoricus
|
| Subject: |
Homer's the Iliad and The Odyssey |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:24:51 EDT |
|
Salve Ancient Literature Lovers of Nova Roma,
I recently purchased Hardback Editions of Homer's The Odyssey and The Iliad
(and Star Trek: Vulcans Forge, but that has nothing to do with it LOL) from
Barnes & Noble Classics Publishing.
Years ago I read a transcript of the Odyssey that was turned into a Play, but
I've always wanted to read the Original Epic Poem (after its been translated
into English). And I've never read the Iliad. Does anyone recommend a
company to buy "The Aeneid" by Vergil? Well I'm off to go read my books.
Vale
Iulius Titinius Antonius
Faber est suae quisque fortunae.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Homer's the Iliad and The Odyssey |
| From: |
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:47:20 EDT |
|
Salve,
Good luck to you in reading your new books! I have read the Illiad,
though not the Odyssey, and I have listened to the Aeneid. That was a treat,
since those works were orginally intended to be recited rather than read in
private.
However, it was hard going with me. I found that I do not like epic
poetry much. It was very hard to get through the Illiad. I came away from
it with the feeling that it MAY have been written by an atheist in disguise.
My values are so foriegn to those praised by Homer. For instance, I think
that Thersites in Book 2 is by far the most sane and sensible man among the
Achians, though Homer paints him as a detestable fellow.
The Aeneid was more enjoyable for me, though Virgil is ripping Homer off
every which way he can! Try listening to the recording by Shakespearian
actor Christopher Ravenscroft. It should be available in any decent
bookstore.
Gaius Lupinius Festus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Homer's the Iliad and The Odyssey |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:16:12 -0400 |
|
When you listened to the audio cassettes how much 'stuff' was left out - if any?
For I read the Illiad, Odyssey and the Aeneid and can not imagine that the audio
versions could possible have all material as within the books.
Tacitus
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> wrote:
> Salve,
>
> Good luck to you in reading your new books! I have read the Illiad,
> though not the Odyssey, and I have listened to the Aeneid. That was a treat,
> since those works were orginally intended to be recited rather than read in
> private.
>
> However, it was hard going with me. I found that I do not like epic
> poetry much. It was very hard to get through the Illiad. I came away from
> it with the feeling that it MAY have been written by an atheist in disguise.
> My values are so foriegn to those praised by Homer. For instance, I think
> that Thersites in Book 2 is by far the most sane and sensible man among the
> Achians, though Homer paints him as a detestable fellow.
>
> The Aeneid was more enjoyable for me, though Virgil is ripping Homer off
> every which way he can! Try listening to the recording by Shakespearian
> actor Christopher Ravenscroft. It should be available in any decent
> bookstore.
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Homer's the Iliad and The Odyssey |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:57:17 -0700 |
|
Salve
In Riverside, there is a bookstore called the Talking Book World..and I recall they
had Abriged and Unabriged choices. :) I can try to get the phone number, since
they do rentals by snail mail, if anyone is interested?
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
Michael Marconi wrote:
> When you listened to the audio cassettes how much 'stuff' was left out - if any?
> For I read the Illiad, Odyssey and the Aeneid and can not imagine that the audio
> versions could possible have all material as within the books.
>
> Tacitus
>
> <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> wrote:
>
> > Salve,
> >
> > Good luck to you in reading your new books! I have read the Illiad,
> > though not the Odyssey, and I have listened to the Aeneid. That was a treat,
> > since those works were orginally intended to be recited rather than read in
> > private.
> >
> > However, it was hard going with me. I found that I do not like epic
> > poetry much. It was very hard to get through the Illiad. I came away from
> > it with the feeling that it MAY have been written by an atheist in disguise.
> > My values are so foriegn to those praised by Homer. For instance, I think
> > that Thersites in Book 2 is by far the most sane and sensible man among the
> > Achians, though Homer paints him as a detestable fellow.
> >
> > The Aeneid was more enjoyable for me, though Virgil is ripping Homer off
> > every which way he can! Try listening to the recording by Shakespearian
> > actor Christopher Ravenscroft. It should be available in any decent
> > bookstore.
> >
> > Gaius Lupinius Festus
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with
> > convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the
> > first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
> > additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate.
> > <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956098047/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956098047/</a>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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