Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:	Marcus Pap--------s Justus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:17:23 -0600

Salve,

A soft 'c' sound is the same as an 's' sound ... if they were trying to
replicate a soft 'c', it would have been spelled SAESAR.

Incidentally, a good indication of how V's were pronounced as W's is also
seen in Greek inscriptions, with names like VIBIUS written as OUBIOUS etc.

Sorry, but your arguments just don't wash ... you require us to believe in
an invention based on a prior distortion when there's plenty of
inscriptional evidence which demonstrates the rather simple explanation
mentioned above and in my previous message.

mpj

At 12:44 AM 4/20/00 +0200, you wrote:
>At 18.34 19/04/00 -0600, you wrote:
> >Salve ... the strong C's and G's are no invention; we know how they were
> >pronounced because of inscriptional evidence; specifically, Greek
> >inscriptional evidence ... more specifically, of names. Caesar, e.g., is
> >transliterated at KAISAR ...
> >
> >mpj
> >
>
>
>Salve
>
>The greeks didn't have a soft "c" sound, I'm afraid.. they had the hard
>"kappa" and the not so soft gamma, so it's pretty natural that they
>translittered the c of Caesar in K which doesn't mean that was correct...
>have you ever noticed how a nam and a surname get awfully distored when
>pronounced by someone speaking another language? :)
>
>vale
>
>GC
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
>already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
>find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956184494/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956184494/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 803
From:
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:16:56 EDT

I satrongly recommend that everyone try to read both the Iliad and the
Odyssey in the wonderful modern translations of Robert Fagles. For the first
time, these stories read like the real adventure stories they were meant to
be. The English language used is superior, and it reads so smoothly and
naturally that you will experience Homer with the same enjoyment that you
have in reading some of our modern novelists. The horribly stilted English
of previous translation is finally gone.

RCouill, Magister in sempiterna

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 803
From:
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:18:29 EDT

In a message dated 4/19/00 6:55:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> writes:

<<
Q: What do you call a dead Gaul on the Via Appia?
A: Road Celt.

Q: Why did the Roman cross the road?
A: To discourage the slaves from revolting again. >>


These evil jokes are really excellent! Great sense of the sardonic!! Truly
Roman!!

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 803
From:
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:22:23 EDT

In a message dated 4/19/00 6:55:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> writes:

<<
Local reaction has been mixed. The Christian Right is in an uproar,
due to the Romans' pagan beliefs and alleged involvement in the
infamous Calvary Incident. However, the Legionaries (known
affectionately as "Marius' Mules" for their carrying capacity) have
become quite popular with local roadworkers and survey teams.
Apparently they are hiring themselves out as engineers, carpenters,
laborers, freelance security, Latin tutors and Western Civ
study-buddies. At least one of them is rumored to have hit the lecture
circuit.


Marius' Mules were the greatest of the Roman legions serving in the Republic.
If the legions had retained the great loyalty that they showed for Marius,
there would still be a strong Roman presence in the world. As for the
Christian Right, they should realize first of all that everyone living then
and now was and is responsible for the Calvary. That's basic Christian
theology. There is no single group of villains whom we can all righteously
blame and feel superior. We all did it. Accordingly, we all were also
responsible afterwards for seeing that the message of Calvary spread all over
the world. So maybe all Romans and Roman legionaries aren't so bad.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:	<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=123202250237229116184218046036129208" >gkbagne@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:26:07 -0000

Salve! In latin the v may indeed have been pronounced as w, but I
still have trouble envisioning Julius C. looking out over Gaul and
disclaiming " weedie, weanie, weakie". Be Well, Lapella
--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, Marcus Papirius Justus papirius@i...
wrote:
> Salve,
>
> A soft 'c' sound is the same as an 's' sound ... if they were
trying to
> replicate a soft 'c', it would have been spelled SAESAR.
>
> Incidentally, a good indication of how V's were pronounced as W's
is also
> seen in Greek inscriptions, with names like VIBIUS written as
OUBIOUS etc.
>
> Sorry, but your arguments just don't wash ... you require us to
believe in
> an invention based on a prior distortion when there's plenty of
> inscriptional evidence which demonstrates the rather simple
explanation
> mentioned above and in my previous message.
>
> mpj
>
> At 12:44 AM 4/20/00 +0200, you wrote:
> >At 18.34 19/04/00 -0600, you wrote:
> > >Salve ... the strong C's and G's are no invention; we know how
they were
> > >pronounced because of inscriptional evidence; specifically, Greek
> > >inscriptional evidence ... more specifically, of names. Caesar,
e.g., is
> > >transliterated at KAISAR ...
> > >
> > >mpj
> > >
> >
> >
> >Salve
> >
> >The greeks didn't have a soft "c" sound, I'm afraid.. they had the
hard
> >"kappa" and the not so soft gamma, so it's pretty natural that they
> >translittered the c of Caesar in K which doesn't mean that was
correct...
> >have you ever noticed how a nam and a surname get awfully distored
when
> >pronounced by someone speaking another language? :)
> >
> >vale
> >
> >GC
> >
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> >Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million
alumni
> >already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
> >find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
> ><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956184494/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956184494/</a>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
---

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:	Guido Costantini <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 02:24:13 +0200

At 20.17 19/04/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Salve,
>
>A soft 'c' sound is the same as an 's' sound ... if they were trying to
>replicate a soft 'c', it would have been spelled SAESAR.


I'm sorry, but a soft "C" is in no way as a "s" sound... that's in english,
not in latin or italian or in any of the romance languages that i know of
(french, spanish, portoguese and romenian)... luckly enough, the only thing
that sound like an "s" in those language is.. s. A strong "c" is "k" or
"ch" (in italian, in frech as another sound which is no "S" anyway, dunno
in spanish) while c is just c.. you mean you'd pronounce "etcetera" "et
ketera".. what an horror.


>Sorry, but your arguments just don't wash ... you require us to believe in
>an invention based on a prior distortion when there's plenty of
>inscriptional evidence which demonstrates the rather simple explanation
>mentioned above and in my previous message.


Actually not.. I require you to believe .. no, not even, just reporting...
the latin pronounce which comes directly from the people who have lived IN
Rome for the last 2000 years... and the pronounce of the only institution
which kept latin a living language, the church... they spoke that without
interruption since the real roman times... MAYBE they know better than
germans? And for scholars, the tradition of the university of Bologne, one
thousand years, rather the one made up by some philologists of the last
century :)
After that, you are free to pronounce Caesar like a german pronounces
Kaiser, but let me tell you that the Cicero who wanted latin spoke "ore
rotundo" would have probably paled in front of that. Latin is a musical
language, make it full of strong sounds and you'll kill it.

Vale

GC

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:	Marcus Pap--------s Justus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:31:30 -0600

Salvete,

An addendum to my previous not on V's and W's (I hit the send key too
quickly, as usual): we also have evidence of V's also being transliterated
as B's (I know I've seen this in inscriptions and in Plutarch) ... but it's
interesting that one sees names like OUALERIOUS (Valerius) but never
BALERIOUS ...

dm

At 08:17 PM 4/19/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Salve,
>
>A soft 'c' sound is the same as an 's' sound ... if they were trying to
>replicate a soft 'c', it would have been spelled SAESAR.
>
>Incidentally, a good indication of how V's were pronounced as W's is also
>seen in Greek inscriptions, with names like VIBIUS written as OUBIOUS etc.
>
>Sorry, but your arguments just don't wash ... you require us to believe in
>an invention based on a prior distortion when there's plenty of
>inscriptional evidence which demonstrates the rather simple explanation
>mentioned above and in my previous message.
>
>mpj
>
>At 12:44 AM 4/20/00 +0200, you wrote:
> >At 18.34 19/04/00 -0600, you wrote:
> > >Salve ... the strong C's and G's are no invention; we know how they were
> > >pronounced because of inscriptional evidence; specifically, Greek
> > >inscriptional evidence ... more specifically, of names. Caesar, e.g., is
> > >transliterated at KAISAR ...
> > >
> > >mpj
> > >
> >
> >
> >Salve
> >
> >The greeks didn't have a soft "c" sound, I'm afraid.. they had the hard
> >"kappa" and the not so soft gamma, so it's pretty natural that they
> >translittered the c of Caesar in K which doesn't mean that was correct...
> >have you ever noticed how a nam and a surname get awfully distored when
> >pronounced by someone speaking another language? :)
> >
> >vale
> >
> >GC
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
> >already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
> >find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
> ><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956184494/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956184494/</a>
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with
>convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the
>first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
>additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate.
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956189731/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956189731/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: Latin
From:	"Luciu--------riu--------mbria" <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:44:21 -0000

> ... no latin, nor any italian, will ever pronounce a hard "g" or
> "c" and if we assume the neo-latin languages are really the
> children of their mother, you'll have even more proof of that.

Speak for yourself, carissime; this Hispano-Roman would go a long
ways for some Carne Guisada.
^ ^
-- L Marius Fimbria, gozando el carnival con un galgo de corso!
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:	Marcus Pap--------s Justus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:46:55 -0600

Okay, french is a Romance language and I don't think there will be an
argument if I suggest the following c's are pronounced as 's'

cinema, garcon, france, francais, and on and on ...

Italian, it is true, does not seem to have this sound (as far as I'm aware)

Spanish: try the following (the first page I turned to in the dictionary,
totally at random):

enciclopedia (the first c)
encendio
enserado

We say "et 'setera'" ... the Romans said "et ketera"

Whatever the case, however, these are modern pronunciations, a couple of
millennia removed from how people were speaking in the ancient
Mediterranean. I'd hardly be making arguments about the pronunciation of
Chaucer based on Canadian English. Present some evidence that the hard C
was invented by German grammarians. Which ones? Name them.

mpj


At 02:24 AM 4/20/00 +0200, you wrote:
>At 20.17 19/04/00 -0600, you wrote:
> >Salve,
> >
> >A soft 'c' sound is the same as an 's' sound ... if they were trying to
> >replicate a soft 'c', it would have been spelled SAESAR.
>
>
>I'm sorry, but a soft "C" is in no way as a "s" sound... that's in english,
>not in latin or italian or in any of the romance languages that i know of
>(french, spanish, portoguese and romenian)... luckly enough, the only thing
>that sound like an "s" in those language is.. s. A strong "c" is "k" or
>"ch" (in italian, in frech as another sound which is no "S" anyway, dunno
>in spanish) while c is just c.. you mean you'd pronounce "etcetera" "et
>ketera".. what an horror.
>
>
> >Sorry, but your arguments just don't wash ... you require us to believe in
> >an invention based on a prior distortion when there's plenty of
> >inscriptional evidence which demonstrates the rather simple explanation
> >mentioned above and in my previous message.
>
>
>Actually not.. I require you to believe .. no, not even, just reporting...
>the latin pronounce which comes directly from the people who have lived IN
>Rome for the last 2000 years... and the pronounce of the only institution
>which kept latin a living language, the church... they spoke that without
>interruption since the real roman times... MAYBE they know better than
>germans? And for scholars, the tradition of the university of Bologne, one
>thousand years, rather the one made up by some philologists of the last
>century :)
>After that, you are free to pronounce Caesar like a german pronounces
>Kaiser, but let me tell you that the Cicero who wanted latin spoke "ore
>rotundo" would have probably paled in front of that. Latin is a musical
>language, make it full of strong sounds and you'll kill it.
>
>Vale
>
>GC
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with
>convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the
>first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
>additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate.
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956190474/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956190474/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:	Guido Costantini <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 02:46:51 +0200

>
>Whatever the case, however, these are modern pronunciations, a couple of
>millennia removed from how people were speaking in the ancient
>Mediterranean. I'd hardly be making arguments about the pronunciation of
>Chaucer based on Canadian English. Present some evidence that the hard C
>was invented by German grammarians. Which ones? Name them.
>
>mpj


*chuckle* and name me the grammarians who created the hard c sound in latin
then :) Anyway, as I already said, I'm not trying to convert it, just
exposing the way latin is pronounced in Italy and in Rome nowadays, I'm
ready to bet even in imperial Rome Latin was pronounced in a widely
different way if you were in Spain or in Palestina so, whatever you see
fit, use it... but do not think that's the universal, correct one, if I may
dare a judgment.

vale

GC

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:	Marcus Pap--------s Justus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:05:53 -0600

At 02:46 AM 4/20/00 +0200, you wrote:

>*chuckle* and name me the grammarians who created the hard c sound in latin
>then :)

I don't have to name any grammarians. I cited inscriptional evidence from
the time the language was being spoken.

>Anyway, as I already said, I'm not trying to convert it, just
>exposing the way latin is pronounced in Italy and in Rome nowadays,

Well, no, what you said exactly was:

"Forgive my boldness... the strong "g" and "c" in latin are an invention of
the germans scholars of the XIX century... no latin, nor any italian, will
ever pronounce a hard "g" or "c" and if we assume the neo-latin languages
are really the children of their mother, you'll have even more proof of that.
Hhy people coming from a totally different root of languages claimed the
right to give us the rules of our own (and not casually mirroring their own
way to pronounce those consonant), will always be a wonder"

"No Latin" means "No Latin", whether ancient or modern.

>I'm
>ready to bet even in imperial Rome Latin was pronounced in a widely
>different way if you were in Spain or in Palestina so, whatever you see
>fit, use it... but do not think that's the universal, correct one, if I may
>dare a judgment.

I won't disagree that there were regional differences in pronunciation
(they also come out in inscriptions and papyri), but if you want to know
how something in the age of Cicero was pronounced, it's obvious that you
should go to an official inscription from the time (i.e. one which was
written by a Roman and which has names and key terms simply transliterated)
and work from there. And I think most folks who are classically trained,
endeavour to speak 'Ciceronian' Latin, although classically-trained and
aware-of-inscriptions is not necessarily synonymous.

mpj




>vale
>
>GC
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
>already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
>find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956191832/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956191832/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:	"J.P." <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:13:12 -0700

I'm going to weigh in a little on this one -

Yes, there seems to be something wrong when you thing "Whenie, Wheedie,
Weakie", but you really need to get into a Latin "mode" or accent. . .

which is actually closer to a Spanish accent than an Italian one - It's
related to some concept where the extremes of a language's boundaries are
more archaic than the langages' center - This is why Spanish and French are
closer to Latin than Italian actually is. I believe this is called the
"antiquitism of the periphery".

The "ch" in church pronunciation is most likely *not* "legit" lingua
romana. Latin scholars are quick to point this out - even ones who speak
"church" latin. C's are always always hard, because people like the Romans
were very organized about their letters. Note that the difference between
"V" and "u" is a modern distinction, as is the "W". V's are "whuh", and C's
are "Kuh" because the romans had a letter for "suh" - S.

The roundness of latin comes from the vowels, which are not exactly
liquidy like french, but rounder than english and italian. Again think
Spanish.

"R"'s in latin most likely trilled lightly, what is called a "flap".
This alone with the fuller vowel sounds would have lent a round sound to
spoken latin.

Oh, and the "f" *might* be closer to a bilabial fricative than an
interdental fricative, but this is case specific. A bilabial fricative is
an "f" sound made by a closure of the lips and not by a closing of the teeth
and lower lip. There is an ambiguity in spanish between "v" and "f" and "b"
because of this feature. In response to Papirius Iustus' point about the
transliteration of B for V, this would be the reason, perhaps?

A suggestion that I'm not sure I agree with is that the "m" in latin as
in "garum" was nasalized, because it could pe contracted (elided) in verse
to count as one syllable for metric purposes. Example is: "amandum est" is
treated as two syllables in latin verse and might be heard as "amand--m-est"
or phonetically [amandmEst].

Just some food for thought. Feel free to disagree.


Valete,

S. Troicus Ductor

> From: <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=123202250237229116184218046036129208" >gkbagne@--------</a>
> Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:26:07 -0000
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
>
> Salve! In latin the v may indeed have been pronounced as w, but I
> still have trouble envisioning Julius C. looking out over Gaul and
> disclaiming " weedie, weanie, weakie". Be Well, Lapella
> --- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, Marcus Papirius Justus papirius@i...
> wrote:
>> Salve,
>>
>> A soft 'c' sound is the same as an 's' sound ... if they were
> trying to
>> replicate a soft 'c', it would have been spelled SAESAR.
>>
>> Incidentally, a good indication of how V's were pronounced as W's
> is also
>> seen in Greek inscriptions, with names like VIBIUS written as
> OUBIOUS etc.
>>
>> Sorry, but your arguments just don't wash ... you require us to
> believe in
>> an invention based on a prior distortion when there's plenty of
>> inscriptional evidence which demonstrates the rather simple
> explanation
>> mentioned above and in my previous message.
>>
>> mpj
>>
>> At 12:44 AM 4/20/00 +0200, you wrote:
>>> At 18.34 19/04/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>>> Salve ... the strong C's and G's are no invention; we know how
> they were
>>>> pronounced because of inscriptional evidence; specifically, Greek
>>>> inscriptional evidence ... more specifically, of names. Caesar,
> e.g., is
>>>> transliterated at KAISAR ...
>>>>
>>>> mpj
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Salve
>>>
>>> The greeks didn't have a soft "c" sound, I'm afraid.. they had the
> hard
>>> "kappa" and the not so soft gamma, so it's pretty natural that they
>>> translittered the c of Caesar in K which doesn't mean that was
> correct...
>>> have you ever noticed how a nam and a surname get awfully distored
> when
>>> pronounced by someone speaking another language? :)
>>>
>>> vale
>>>
>>> GC
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>>> Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million
> alumni
>>> already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
>>> find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
>>> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956184494/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956184494/</a>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 10% Off FogDog.com, Disney.com, eCost.com and many more.
> You get paid as you shop with the Pointclick network.
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3417/4/_/61050/_/956190376/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3417/4/_/61050/_/956190376/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Subject:	Lingua Latina (et aliae)
From:
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:02:28 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

I came home this evening to discover a very interesting discussion on=20
pronunciation and orthography. I would like to add my own two sesterces. =20

I find the "hard c"/"soft c" exchange somewhat elusive and a touch=20
misleading. That is, it is a seeming attempt to impose an English=20
orthographical convention on another language. This is analogous in some=20
respects to the attempts of early English grammarians to impose the grammar=20
of Latin (a Celto-Italic language) onto English (a Germanic language). The=20
result in both cases is somewhat unfortunate.

In trying to discuss the sound structure (phonology) of a language, I think=20
rather than trying to impose the orthographical conventions of one tongue=20
onto another and then use this unwieldly device as a tool to describe one's=20
ideas and theories, it might be wiser to use a sort of "computer friendly"=20
phonological convention such as /s/ representing the *sound* (phoneme) that=20
can be represented in several ways, including "s" as well as what many peopl=
e=20
seem to be calling a "soft c": as in English "sight" or "cite"; French=20
"signe" or "fa=E7on"; Italian "sei" or "esse"; Greek "kalos" (in the Greek=20
alphabet, kappa-alpha-lambda-omicron-sigma); or Latin "signum" or "rosa." =20
(That is, in representing one sound, we have at least four different=20
orthographical conventions for doing so -- including one in a completely=20
different alphabet.) Trying to inflict English orthography (the manner in=20
which letters are used to express the sounds of English -- and anyone who ha=
s=20
studied English as a second language is well aware of that nightmarish=20
endeavour) on Latin (or any other language) is at best confusing and at wors=
e=20
seriously misleading. I do not mean to criticise individuals who have not=20
pursued coursework in Generative or Comparative Phonology. But, believe me,=
=20
describing the *sound* rather than the *letter* used to represent it=20
(especially when one is basing the grapheme on an alien language) clears the=
=20
way of many obstacles.

Not to pick on the author of the following statement in any way, but merely=20
to use an random paragraph from a random as an example, I would also say the=
=20
following.

Example: "After that, you are free to pronounce Caesar like a german=20
pronounces Kaiser, but let me tell you that the Cicero who wanted latin spok=
e=20
"ore
rotundo" would have probably paled in front of that. Latin is a musical
language, make it full of strong sounds and you'll kill it."

The reason a German pronounces the Latin word "Caesar" as "Kaiser" was=20
because when he heard the Latin word at the time it entered the German=20
language, the phonemes which he likely interpreted were /kaj-ser/. (Because=
=20
of a phonological quality of German, the sound /s/ between two vowels become=
s=20
voiced (the vocal chords vibrate) making it sound like /z/.) At least one=20
dialect of Old High German transcribed the word as "cheisar" indicated=20
perhaps an initial glottal fricative but possibly the standard velar stop /k=
/=20
orthographical represented as "ch" in an environment preceding a front vowel=
.=20
=20

Those who speak English, however, received the word "Caesar" through the=20
French. By that time, the French had already taken the step toward=20
transforming the Latin voiceless velar stop (/k/) into a voiceless sibilant=20
(/s/) in the environment before a front vowel (i, e) -- French already havin=
g=20
changed the pronounciation of (and orthographical representation of) the=20
Latin diphthong "ae" to /=E9/ (approximately the "a" in Eng. "rate" without=20=
the=20
brief diphongalisation at the end), which in English was subsequently=20
"raised" to a high front vowel probably around the time of the Great English=
=20
Vowel Shift, becoming the sound of the "ee" in the word "seen." That Englis=
h=20
orthography (i.e., "spelling") retains the Latin form while enforcing upon=20
that form its own phonological requirements is a characteristic of English=20
(as well as such languages as Scots Gaelic and Tibetan which are notoriously=
=20
conservative in their spelling, retaining ancient -- or at least old --=20
orthographical forms which often have little in common with the current=20
pronunciation). =20

As far as "ore rotundo" is concerned, this is a fine description for full,=20
open *vowels*. However, I fail to see how it has any effect on velar=20
consonants (inter alia) whatsoever.

A "musical language" is a very, very subjective description. I personally=20
find the King Island dialect of Northern Eskimo to be exceptionally musical=20
-- even with its ubiquitous use of voiced and unvoiced post-velar stops. =20
"Musicality" if applied to language can I think only apply to its=20
"continuants" -- vowels for example, or nasal consonants which can be=20
sustained for as long as one's breath holds out. Since I doubt that any=20
human vocal tract is capable of sustaining a /t/ or a /p/ or a /k/, I think=20
that suggesting that a language which possesses these phonemes is somehow=20
"un-musical" simply doesn't wash. Why Cicero (kikero/) might have paled whe=
n=20
confronted with a velar stop is quite beyond me. The fact that modern=20
Italian (and Sardinian), the closest "genetic" descendants of Latin both=20
retain the "k" sound in various environments is the best indication that=20
whether Cicero would have paled or not, the sound remained alive and beaming=
.

It has been fairly well determined through extensive work in historical and=20
comparative linguistics that in Classical Latin that: =20

1) The Latin sound represented in that language by the letter "c" was=20
pronounced as the English "k" in "kite" in all cases, regardless of position=
=20
and neighbouring phonemes. It was never, ever pronounced like "s" in Eng.=20
"sign" nor like "z" in Eng. "rose" nor like "ch" as in Eng. "church" or=20
Italian "ciao."

2) The Latin sound represented in that language by the letter "s" was alway=
s=20
pronounced as in Eng. "sign" and never as its voiced equivalent, i.e., as /z=
/=20
in Eng. or French "rose" or Italian "rosa."

However, it is quite possible that Vulgar Latin, particularly in the=20
provinces, early adopted these modifications to the Classical pronunciation,=
=20
whether based on their own foundational languages (e.g., Gaulish,=20
Celt-Iberian, Dacian) or for other more obscure reasons. Certainly, the=20
pronunciation of "Ecclesiastical Latin" was heavily influenced by the=20
development of post-Classical Latin pronunciation in Italy, with the result=20
that Classical Latin /kajser/ ("Caesar") is neither pronounced like the=20
Germanic /kajzer/ ("Kaiser") nor the French /s=E9zar/ ("C=E9sar"), but like=20=
the=20
"Italianate" /chesar/.

Now that I have thoroughly bored all of you to tears (except perhaps=20
Gadelicus Canadiensis and my loyal friend Rufa), I beg your forgiveness and=20
crawl back into my cave...

Gratias vobis ago, et valete omnes,
Acadianus Draco =20
=20

Subject:	Re: Iliad and the Odyssey
From:
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:52:14 -0700

The Fagles translation of the Iliad is available on tape, it is
unabridged.
One can follow the text word by word. It is published by Penguin,
and is read by Derek Jacoby. I think it is in 8 cassettes. I like it.

I listened to it twice through.

The Odyssey is available in a number of English translations.

W.H.D. Rouse, a fun one that scholars sniff at.

the Lattimer one, which I saw people carrying around the
Classics Dept at S.F. State U.

the Walter Shewring trans, offered by Oxford Univ Press

T.E. Lawrence did one that I saw a year or more ago.
It is, how shall I say it? ... Quaint, in its word choice. I almost
wonder if he was making fun of erudite English academic language.
It might be of more interest as a study of such English of that period

than as a form of Homer to read and enjoy.

and most likely more.

I've read the Iliad a few times. I've read the Odyssey many times.
I do not know how many. Each of the above translations.
I first read the Rouse one [a Mentor Book?] when I was ten.
Read it all through the Navy and and got it again for a merchie
hitch. I like Fagles and Shewring. Lattimore is okay.

Rob't Graves did a trans of the Iliad that he titled, _The Wrath of
Achilles_
He might have done an Odyssey trans.

that is enough

Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	Re:Lamest Roman Joke
From:
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:59:08 -0700

I thought you were on your Honeymoon!
Off with you.
You have much better things to do.
And assuredly you will do them much better.

Bene vale.
Di Deaque te ament.
C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	Re: Latin
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:50:31 -0400

Salvete

I'm sure that, on those occasions when we meet, we'll not fight over how we
pronounce our v's and c's. It would be too much a pleasure to converse with
any Nova Roman in Latin, however he/she is pronouncing it, for me to get
bent out of shape over some discrepancies in pronunciation.

But, when one talks about a standard pronunciation, I much prefer to stick
to the classical pronunciation that Iustus describes, than to use the
Vatican speech. Some standardization of grammar, spelling, and
pronunciation, is desirable to establish a common frame of reference. The
standard may as well be Ciceronian, or, to put it differently, a
reconstruction of the formal rules of the language that Cicero, Caesar and
their contemporaries used. I agree that it seems a bit arbitrary (more on
that later), but this is the form of the language in which we have the most
Republican literature. It also is the form that many scholars, and the
references that they have written, assume as "right".

Of course, Latin varied widely in time and place. Some fellow Nova Romans
have asked me for comments on their Latin (which I am always happy to
provide to the best of my limited ability). In different instances, they
have written sies and siet for present subjunctive forms of the verb esse.
I have suggested that they use instead sis and sit, et cetera, as these were
the forms that I learned, but, as it turns out, sies and siet are real forms
that show up, in the texts of laws from the 100's BCE for instance. So yes,
it's pretty arbitrary for me or anyone else to say that sies is incorrect,
and sis correct.

My approach in this is to be flexible. That is, I try to write Latin as
closely as I can to the Ciceronian rules, I use the classical pronunciation
with its lovely hard consonants. But when asked to provide comments or
corrections to someone else's work, I am open about my frame of reference -
Ciceronian - and try not to jump all over a deviation from the rules.

Valete

C Marius Merullus

:
:*chuckle* and name me the grammarians who created the hard c sound in latin
:then :) Anyway, as I already said, I'm not trying to convert it, just
:exposing the way latin is pronounced in Italy and in Rome nowadays, I'm
:ready to bet even in imperial Rome Latin was pronounced in a widely
:different way if you were in Spain or in Palestina so, whatever you see
:fit, use it... but do not think that's the universal, correct one, if I may
:dare a judgment.
:

Subject:	Re: Latin
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:52:43 -0400

Salvete

Latina lingua non est Italiana nostrorum dierum

They're different languages. The Greeks who wrote Caesar as Kaiser were
contemporaries of Latin-speaking Romans. Mi dispiace mi Guido, ma Iustus ti
parla la verita....

Valete

C Marius Merullus


:
:Actually not.. I require you to believe .. no, not even, just reporting...
:the latin pronounce which comes directly from the people who have lived IN
:Rome for the last 2000 years... and the pronounce of the only institution
:which kept latin a living language, the church... they spoke that without
:interruption since the real roman times... MAYBE they know better than
:germans? And for scholars, the tradition of the university of Bologne, one
:thousand years, rather the one made up by some philologists of the last
:century :)
:After that, you are free to pronounce Caesar like a german pronounces
:Kaiser, but let me tell you that the Cicero who wanted latin spoke "ore
:rotundo" would have probably paled in front of that. Latin is a musical
:language, make it full of strong sounds and you'll kill it.
:

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Iliad and the Odyssey
From:	"susan brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061158091009093031223225065148243223136058139046209" >scriba_forum@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 03:19:44 GMT

Salve Aelius Ericius:

I shall have to look for " The Iliad " as read by Derek Jacoby. Thanks for
sharing that it's available. He is an excellent actor, and I'm sure he
truly brings this work "to life".

For those interested, Derek Jacoby was the actor who played the Emporer
Claudius in the famed BBC production "I Claudius". He's been in several
other excellent productions, including a lengthy British series in which he
played a 12th Century Monk, who was an Amateur Sleuth who helped the village
sherriff solve criminal mysteries...the name escapes me...I'm sure one of
our citizens of Britannia would know.

At any rate, I'm going to look for "The Iliad".

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

>From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Iliad and the Odyssey
>Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:52:14 -0700
>
>The Fagles translation of the Iliad is available on tape, it is
>unabridged.
>One can follow the text word by word. It is published by Penguin,
>and is read by Derek Jacoby. I think it is in 8 cassettes. I like it.
>
>I listened to it twice through.
>
>The Odyssey is available in a number of English translations.
>
>W.H.D. Rouse, a fun one that scholars sniff at.
>
>the Lattimer one, which I saw people carrying around the
>Classics Dept at S.F. State U.
>
>the Walter Shewring trans, offered by Oxford Univ Press
>
>T.E. Lawrence did one that I saw a year or more ago.
>It is, how shall I say it? ... Quaint, in its word choice. I almost
>wonder if he was making fun of erudite English academic language.
>It might be of more interest as a study of such English of that period
>
>than as a form of Homer to read and enjoy.
>
>and most likely more.
>
>I've read the Iliad a few times. I've read the Odyssey many times.
>I do not know how many. Each of the above translations.
>I first read the Rouse one [a Mentor Book?] when I was ten.
>Read it all through the Navy and and got it again for a merchie
>hitch. I like Fagles and Shewring. Lattimore is okay.
>
>Rob't Graves did a trans of the Iliad that he titled, _The Wrath of
>Achilles_
>He might have done an Odyssey trans.
>
>that is enough
>
>Valete.
>C. Aelius Ericius.
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 801
From:	JOANNE SHAVER <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056091078082116036098203004129208071" >merlinia@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:38:47 -0400

Check out CAESAR by Colleen Mc Cullough; the disposition& names
of the legions and their allegiances at the start of the Civil
War are in there, also on the Audiotape.
-Merlinia A.A.

<a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> wrote:
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from
> Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956041434/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956041434/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 3 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: [Fwd: Woops....]
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061044104089235135169082190036" >sfp55@--------</--------;
> 2. Re: Latin
> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
> 3. Munus Florae Update
> From: "J.P." <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:23:52 EDT
> From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061044104089235135169082190036" >sfp55@--------</--------;
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Woops....]
>
> In a message dated 4/3/2000 3:36:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
> << Salvete.
>
> Here is someone who has requested information. I dont know the answers,
> maybe someone on the list here might be able to help. :)
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
>
> Jesse Hamilton wrote:
>
> > Consul Sulla, Lucius Cornelius.
> >
> >
> > Sorry for sending the last letter with nothing on it, my finger
> slipped on the keyboard.
> >
> > First, thank-you for responding to my Email so quickly. It is nice
> to meet people with the same interests. My main area of focus at the moment
> is the first "triumvirate" of Ceasar, Crassus, and Pompey. I really need to
> find out the names of the legions just befor the civilwar between Ceasar and
> Pompey, and their locations.
> >
> > Due to my location, I'm limited in the historical references I can
> access. From Plutarch's "Lives", there is mention of Ceasar's highly skilled
> X Legion, but I can not find the name (Victrix?).
> >
> > Brian Campbell's "The Roman Army", has good maps of Legion locations,
> and their names, from II Augusta to III Parthia (33 legions in all), but this
> is from the Empire, not the late Republic.
> >
> > Can you help me with the names of the Legions and thier locations from
> c.56 B.C. to c.5 A.D.?
> >
> > I would be most grateful. Also, please tell me more about your
> interesting organization. I've only heard about it by word of mouth. Can
> anyone join? Even a Plebian?(ha-ha).
> >
> > I Eagerly await your reply with hope of an answer to my problem, and
> further discussion about your organization.
> >
> > ----- Namius Pyphonus.
> > >>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:40:14 -0700
> From: Raz-------- <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>
> Subject: Re: Latin
>
> Salve, G. Albius Gaedilicus.
>
> I wish to laud your efforts in clarifying the murky waters of
> Nova Roma Latin. I have decided to finally chime in on the matter
> of accentuation notations. I hope you do not think me an utter
> negativist for saying that it is my belief that not notations
> should be used in our texts. I have always found them to be a
> hindrance to reading and, I must confess, I get confused as to
> just what the heck they are telling me to do. Learning by ear
> is always the best, and there are tapes available for reasonable
> sums. Eventually Nova Romans will be meeting more often and,
> hopefully, using "some" Latin. From the Latin I have heard from
> some of our fellow citizens over these short years I can assure
> you that the problem has not been noting the accentuation. Not
> at all. LOL =({[;-) And the inability to recognize the words was
> not that my ear and brain were not set to "Latin".
> What the Nova Roma Latin sites need is to be proofed by someone
> who knows Latin in order to correct the errors in basic grammar,
> as well as typing. Such as -- is it "quod bonum faustum, felix,
> fortunatem"?
> or "quod bonum faustum, felictatem, fortunatem"?
> or is it flawed. This is the direction I believe would be very
> helpful to spreading Latin literacy.
>
> I work with many people who are not native English speakers.
> In some cases it is only a matter of accent -- pronunciation
> and accentuation, etc.. In other cases it is vocabulary.
> Most often I can understand what is being said.
>
> Bene vale.
> C. Aelius Ericius.
>
> post scriptum:
> I believe Nova Roma Latin should try to use the /v/ sound
> for the "v" letter. As someone pointed out near the beginning
> of this endeavor, pronouncing the "v" in the Ciceronian /w/ way
> made the name of our organization sound as though one were
> talking about a thing that is without scent. --|([;-)
> CAE
>
> --- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, "Doug Barr" dhkbarr@i... wrote:
> > Salvete Omnes!
> >
> > I'm very grateful to the various people who've responded to my
>
> posted offer
> > to accentuate the Latin text of the rites, if that is useful and
>
> welcome.
> >
> > I also made, in a private e-mail to the Pontifex Maximus, some
>
> rather
> > impertinent comments about the some of the Latin, which I have since
>
> > withdrawn. -- And when, O gods, will I remember the "Save as Draft"
>
> option
> > in my e-mail program? -- Chalk it up to the brashness of a wild
>
> Northerner
> > who's only half-Romanized, with all the over-confidence that
>
> implies. I'll
> > try to keep it in check from here on out.
> >
> > One of the reasons, besides the Religio, that I joined Nova Roma
>
> *was* the
> > Latin: I get to learn a new language, which I love (I'm a
>
> language-junkie,
> > we're an odd breed to begin with), and a language that has such very
>
> many
> > wonderful things written in it. How great! And after studying
>
> Sanskrit, how
> > refreshingly easy! :) (No pervasive sound changes (sandhi), no new
>
> script to
> > learn, only six cases instead of eight, only two numbers instead of
>
> three...
> > wow.)
> >
> > As I see it, there are a number of ways to accentuate Nova Roman
>
> Latin.
> >
> > 1. We can use either an acute (á) or a circumflex (â) accent to mark
>
> the
> > long vowels. Apparently something similar to the acute was used by
>
> the
> > Antiqui Romani, and the circumflex is often used as a substitute for
>
> the
> > macron in transcribing Japanese and Sanskrit. As I see it, if we
>
> want to be
> > more strictly traditional, the acute might be better; if not, it
>
> really
> > boils down to which accent a majority of Nova Romans find more
>
> esthetically
> > pleasing. There is a further option of using another accent, perhaps
>
> a grave
> > (à) to mark stressed short vowels, though I personally don't see the
>
> need
> > for it, as traditionally stress is determined by the presence or
>
> absence of
> > long vowels in particular syllables.
> >
> > 2. We can write the long vowels with capital letters, also an
>
> Antiquan
> > practice -- though one that may look odd or unpleasing to modern
>
> eyes. In
> > that case, we probably *wouldn't* be able to capitalize proper names
>
> in
> > Latin text, as that would blur the long/short distinction in initial
>
> vowels
> > in such names as, well, Albius. (And if we're going to be *that*
> > traditional, we'd probably have to throw out both 'j' and 'v'. Who's
>
> ready
> > to write "saluete"? Although I've seen a couple of Latin books that
>
> do just
> > that.)
> >
> > 3. Another option that a Jewish friend of mine pointed out takes
>
> Israeli
> > Hebrew as its example. My friend says that Moses probably wouldn't
> > understand one word in ten of spoken Modern Hebrew, but he could
>
> read it --
> > allowing for neologisms and borrowings that have crept in since his
>
> time --
> > and, more importantly for Jews, any educated Israeli can read what
>
> Moses
> > wrote. Perhaps, eventually, there will be Nova Romans born to gentes
>
> who
> > will grow up hearing some sort of Latin as a cradle-speech. Provided
>
> that
> > the writing does not change, the *spoken* pronunciation might vary
>
> quite
> > widely.
> >
> > With that in mind, and knowing some of the history of the various
>
> Romance
> > languages, another option might be to assume that the long/short
>
> distinction
> > will die out, and simply use an accent to show the stressed
>
> syllable; the
> > number of accents needed could be cut drastically by using a rule
>
> similar to
> > that of Spanish, whereby the accent would be assumed to fall on the
> > second-to-last vowel unless a different accent is indicated -- the
> > diphthongs "ae" and "au" would probably count as one vowel for this
>
> purpose.
> > The sound of the language would become a bit staccato without the
>
> sonority
> > of the lengthened vowels, perhaps, but no more so than Italian can
>
> be.
> >
> > This also ties into the question -- thorny as it is -- if a
>
> distinctively
> > Nova Roman accent is desireable in the pronunciation of Latin. It
>
> rather
> > depends, too, I think, on what use the Latin is to be put: Manius
>
> Ludator
> > and Gaia Ludatrix, unilingual English-speakers recreating Roman
>
> games with
> > and for other unilingual English-speakers, probably aren't going to
>
> need
> > much Latin beyond their names and a few phrases, plus a prayer or
>
> two if
> > there are no priests about.
> >
> > Pontifices Religionis Romanae, on the other hand, are likely to need
>
> rather
> > more.
> >
> > Anyway, here is the Ablution Prayer (unaltered, Maxime!) in these
>
> various
> > schemes of accentuation:
> >
> > Circumflex = long vowel:
> > Haec aqua â corpôre impûritâtês, modô simile plumbô mutandô ad
>
> aurum,
> > elluat. Purgâ mentem. Purgâ carnem. Purgâ animum. Ita est!
> >
> > Acute = long vowel:
> > Haec aqua á corpóre impúritátés, modó simile plumbó mutandó ad
>
> aurum,
> > elluat. Purgá mentem. Purgá carnem. Purgá animum. Ita est!
> >
> > Capital = long vowel:
> > haec aqua A corpOre impUritAtEs, modO simile plumbO mutandO ad
>
> aurum,
> > elluat. purgA mentem. purgA carnem. purgA animum. ita est!
> >
> > Grave accent = stressed vowel (if not second-to-last; "au" and "ae"
>
> count as
> > one vowel for accentuation):
> > Haec aqua a corpore impuritates, modo sìmile plumbo mutando ad
>
> aurum,
> > èlluat. Purga mentem. Purga carnem. Purga ànimum. Ita est!
> >
> > Please pick or pan, as appropriate.
> >
> > Valete (Walete? Ualete?) :)
> > G. Albius Gadelicus
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:37:43 -0700
> From: "J.P." <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a>
> Subject: Munus Florae Update
>
> Salvete!
>
> I wanted to give everyone an update with how the Gladiator project is
> shaping up. This information along with some pictures will be up soon on
> the website at www.geocities.com/sclcc/
>
> The Munus Florae, to be held sometime during the Ludi Floralia, is a
> sequence of Gladiatorial combats for a ceremonial purpose. I believe the
> term munus denotes specifically that the fights are for a ceremonial
> purpose, rather than the programmed executions of damnatio ad arenam where
> thousands of criminals were given weapons and made to fight each other.
>
> Munera began as a rite to honor the memory of the deceased, where after
> the death of important men slaves trained in the fighting arts were made to
> fight to the death, with their blood acting as a sacrifice to the memory of
> the deceased.
>
> Later, under the Republic, munera were given by rich families in honor
> of anscestors, good news, regligious events, and really any reason to have a
> party. Rich families would buy fighters from lanistae, propriators of
> gladiatorial schools called ludi. Some families would even maintain their
> own ludi, sometimes with hundreds of gladiators training under doctores, men
> who were skilled in fighting and often were former gladiators.
>
> Under the Empire, however, gladiatorial games became entirely a state
> function, and in the heyday of the games were eventually made a right of the
> citizen. Under the empire, games were given by the state daily, and a state
> procurator (I believe that's the latin term) would buy the requisite amount
> of men from the lanistae, who made a great deal of money. Eventually,
> however, with rising concern over the large camps of fighting men which the
> largest of the ludi had become, the training of gladiators also became an
> entirely state-based enterprise.
>
> In the spirit of the Republican nature of Nova Roma, the Ludus Florae
> will be put on by gens Troica, to honor not only Flora, but our joining Nova
> Roma. We've been working on this for a while, and we can't wait to show off
> some pictures on our site for you all to see. Unfortunately, pictures of
> last friday's training session did not turn out (bad film maybe?). That's
> too bad, I really nailed Paganus Aureus a good one with a spear.
>
> We're still deciding on a venue, but with luck we will be able to find a
> place which will have enough room for some spectacular fighting and good
> camera angles.
>
> Fabius Maximus has gotten in touch with me regarding a possible
> rebroadcast of the games online at a future time - this would be terriffic.
>
> If you are interested in (and would perhaps commit to) attending the
> games in the Los Angeles area, drop me a line at <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a> . If people
> were willing to show up, we might be able to swing a nicer venue. :-D
>
> Oh - We'll be there at the upcoming California meeting in San Gabriel.
> We'll bring some weapons by.
>
> -S. Troicus Ductor
>
> "Vivamus dum licet bene esse"
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Latin
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 06:31:11 -0500

Salve,

That would indeed be an erroneous vision, since (1) he sent those words
as a written dispatch, and would only have spoken them he dictated them
to his scribes, and (2) he was nowhere near Gaul at the time.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.

On 4/19/00 7:26 PM <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=123202250237229116184218046036129208" >gkbagne@--------</a> (<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=123202250237229116184218046036129208" >gkbagne@--------</a>) wrote:

>Salve! In latin the v may indeed have been pronounced as w, but I
>still have trouble envisioning Julius C. looking out over Gaul and
>disclaiming " weedie, weanie, weakie". Be Well, Lapella

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re:Lamest Roman Joke
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:44:16 EDT

In a message dated 4/19/00 8:02:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< I thought you were on your Honeymoon!
Off with you.
You have much better things to do.
And assuredly you will do them much better.
>>

Actually, the wedding isn't till Saturday the 22nd, and we won't be on our
way to England till Monday, the 24th. You folks are stuck with me for a few
more days! I can't say I'll be around much though since we're deep into last
minute wedding arrangements. On the brighter side, I'll surely be too busy in
these last couple of days to attempt any more humor...

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

Subject:	Re: Latin
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 05:56:04 -0700

C's and...

re Spanish for Caesar.

Ever hear of Cesar Chavez?
pronounced Sehsahr tChahves
the "soft s" is there for Cesar. Maybe that is where English got it?
LOL

Ericius

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re:Lamest Roman Joke
From:	"Jay C" <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=029176234007127072112223203176129208071" >minorgod@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:43:43 CDT

Remomve me from the list!

----Original Message Follows----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------;
Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re:Lamest Roman Joke
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:44:16 EDT

In a message dated 4/19/00 8:02:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< I thought you were on your Honeymoon!
Off with you.
You have much better things to do.
And assuredly you will do them much better.
>>

Actually, the wedding isn't till Saturday the 22nd, and we won't be on our
way to England till Monday, the 24th. You folks are stuck with me for a few
more days! I can't say I'll be around much though since we're deep into
last
minute wedding arrangements. On the brighter side, I'll surely be too busy
in
these last couple of days to attempt any more humor...

Vale,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	Re: Jokes...
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:45:13 -0500 (CDT)

> Q: Why did the Roman cross the road?
> A: To discourage the slaves from revolting again.

The meaning of this passed right by me at first... but the second time
I read it, I thought of Marcus Licinius Crassus, and very nearly spewed
coffee all over my keyboard... excellent!

M. Octavius Germanicus

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Jokes...
From:	"J.P." <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:58:09 -0700

Same thing happened to me.

That's a wicked, wicked joke.

-S. Troicus Ductor

> From: Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
> Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:45:13 -0500 (CDT)
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Jokes...
>
>
>> Q: Why did the Roman cross the road?
>> A: To discourage the slaves from revolting again.
>
> The meaning of this passed right by me at first... but the second time
> I read it, I thought of Marcus Licinius Crassus, and very nearly spewed
> coffee all over my keyboard... excellent!
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus
>
> --
> Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
> konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
> Graveyards of Chicago: |
> <a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with
> convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the
> first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
> additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate.
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956252726/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956252726/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Jokes...
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:28:44 EDT

In a message dated 4/20/00 1:48:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
writes:

<< The meaning of this passed right by me at first... but the second time
I read it, I thought of Marcus Licinius Crassus, and very nearly spewed
coffee all over my keyboard... excellent! >>

Can you share the "catch" for those of us not familiar with Marcus Licinius
Crassus?

--Dex

Subject:	Re: Jokes...
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:52:41 -0400

Salvete Dexippe et alii

He put down the Spartacan slave revolt and crucified the slaves en masse. I
believe that it was the Via Appia that he lined for miles with slaves on x's
evenly spaced (but it could have been another major road leading up to Roma,
I'm not sure).

Technically, were the cruces employed for that mass crucifixion t or x
shaped?

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus

>Can you share the "catch" for those of us not familiar with Marcus Licinius
>Crassus?
>
>--Dex

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Jokes...
From:	"susan brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061158091009093031223225065148243223136058139046209" >scriba_forum@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:58:04 GMT

Salvete, Omnes: Yes , Crassus crucified the slaves along the Via Appia.
"T" forms of crucifixion were by far the most popular, as I understand
things. (Oh, what a morbid subject to post under "jokes" (LOL)!! )

Valete,
Pompeia


>From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] Re: Jokes...
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:52:41 -0400
>
>Salvete Dexippe et alii
>
>He put down the Spartacan slave revolt and crucified the slaves en masse.
>I
>believe that it was the Via Appia that he lined for miles with slaves on
>x's
>evenly spaced (but it could have been another major road leading up to
>Roma,
>I'm not sure).
>
>Technically, were the cruces employed for that mass crucifixion t or x
>shaped?
>
>Valete
>
>Gaius Marius Merullus
>
> >Can you share the "catch" for those of us not familiar with Marcus
>Licinius
> >Crassus?
> >
> >--Dex
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re:Lamest Roman Joke
From:	"Rick Brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:10:53 PDT

Salve: Why??......Pompeia

>From: "Jay C" <a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=029176234007127072112223203176129208071" >minorgod@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re:Lamest Roman Joke
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:43:43 CDT
>
>Remomve me from the list!
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------;
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re:Lamest Roman Joke
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:44:16 EDT
>
>In a message dated 4/19/00 8:02:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
><a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
><< I thought you were on your Honeymoon!
> Off with you.
> You have much better things to do.
> And assuredly you will do them much better.
> >>
>
>Actually, the wedding isn't till Saturday the 22nd, and we won't be on our
>way to England till Monday, the 24th. You folks are stuck with me for a few
>more days! I can't say I'll be around much though since we're deep into
>last
>minute wedding arrangements. On the brighter side, I'll surely be too busy
>in
>these last couple of days to attempt any more humor...
>
>Vale,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with
>convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the
>first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
>additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate.
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956231067/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956231067/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an
>additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate.
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956241824/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3102/4/_/61050/_/956241824/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 804
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:29:34 PDT

Salvete! Scripsit Pompeia Cornelia:

>For those interested, Derek Jacoby was the actor who played the Emporer
>Claudius in the famed BBC production "I Claudius". He's been in several
>other excellent productions, including a lengthy British series in which he
>played a 12th Century Monk, who was an Amateur Sleuth who helped the
>village
>sherriff solve criminal mysteries...the name escapes me...I'm sure one of
>our citizens of Britannia would know.

- Ita. The monk (lay brother actually, they got his habit wrong in the TV
series) is Brother Cadfael, the 'village' is Shrewsbury (tsk, tsk!) and the
sherriff is Berenger. TV adaptations from the novels (which explore tensions
between Welsh, English and Norman, and supporters in the civil war of King
Stephen and Empress Mathilda) by Ellis Peters, aka Edith Pargetter in more
highbrow historical fiction mode and who wrote, inter alia, a splendid
quartet on Prince Llewellyn ap Grufydd ap Gwynedd (the last independent
ruler of Wales), his alliance with Simon de Montfort against Henry III in
the Barons' War and, later, against Edward I. Recommended if you like
historical fiction set in medieval Britain. Enough non-Roman digression:-).

Valete bene,

Vado.


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Subject:	Latin Vith A Wee
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:37:27 PDT

Salvete,

A recent correspondent (whose name is lost to me in this blizzard of
linguistic e-mail) nicely conjured up the image of Giulio Kaiser looking out
over Gaul and saying: "Weedy! Weenie! Winkie!" ...hmmm.

Evidently he was trying to provoke the Gauls into a fight. Blowing them an
interlabial fricative, as one might say...

Valete,

Vado.
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Jokes...
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:43:11 EDT

In a message dated 4/20/00 3:00:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061158091009093031223225065148243223136058139046209" >scriba_forum@--------</a> writes:

<< Salvete, Omnes: Yes , Crassus crucified the slaves along the Via Appia.
"T" forms of crucifixion were by far the most popular, as I understand
things. (Oh, what a morbid subject to post under "jokes" (LOL)!! ) >>

Oh I love it! And just in time for Easter!

--Dex

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 804
From:	"Rick Brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:44:40 PDT

Salve, Vado!

Yes "Cadfael" was the name of the brother. I've seen a few of these videos,
but it was a few years ago... got them from the local library. I'll have to
look for some Ellis Peters books the next time I'm there.

Anyway, thanks for filling in alot of blanks for me, Vado!

Bene vale,
Pompeia

>From: "Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 804
>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:29:34 PDT
>
>
>
>Salvete! Scripsit Pompeia Cornelia:
>
> >For those interested, Derek Jacoby was the actor who played the Emporer
> >Claudius in the famed BBC production "I Claudius". He's been in several
> >other excellent productions, including a lengthy British series in which
>he
> >played a 12th Century Monk, who was an Amateur Sleuth who helped the
> >village
> >sherriff solve criminal mysteries...the name escapes me...I'm sure one of
> >our citizens of Britannia would know.
>
>- Ita. The monk (lay brother actually, they got his habit wrong in the TV
>series) is Brother Cadfael, the 'village' is Shrewsbury (tsk, tsk!) and the
>sherriff is Berenger. TV adaptations from the novels (which explore
>tensions
>between Welsh, English and Norman, and supporters in the civil war of King
>Stephen and Empress Mathilda) by Ellis Peters, aka Edith Pargetter in more
>highbrow historical fiction mode and who wrote, inter alia, a splendid
>quartet on Prince Llewellyn ap Grufydd ap Gwynedd (the last independent
>ruler of Wales), his alliance with Simon de Montfort against Henry III in
>the Barons' War and, later, against Edward I. Recommended if you like
>historical fiction set in medieval Britain. Enough non-Roman digression:-).
>
>Valete bene,
>
>Vado.
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
>
>
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Subject:	Genti Novae Romae in Gallia
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:22:50 PDT

Salve, mi Armorice!

>Thank you for your response.

- de rien!

>I would be delighted to help by providing a French translation of some
>parts
>of the website.

- le peuple de la Rome Neuve vous en remercira. Et plus, les Gaulois!

>The point is that I'm not a professionnal translator,

- n'importe pas.

>in
>fact I have a scientifical background, but I think I would be able to do an
>acceptable job. In fact, I work as an actuary (financial engineer) in a
>financial company. The latin etymology of the word actuary is "actuarius":
>a
>person who, according to my sources, was in charge of record keeping,
>accounting, and writing the reports of what was said and decided during the
>Senate sessions, and (assumption) translating them... The actuarius was
>also
>a military intendant. It would be funny to make history repeating...

- L'histoire se repete toujours, comme dit Hegel.

>Just let me know the parts you which to have translated, I'll see what I
>can
>do for you.

- Ce n'est pas a moi a decider quelles parties seront les mieux a traduire:
veuillez contacter le Curator Aranei (dont le nom m'echappe) a
<a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=125056250213158233050038109248006208071048" >webmaster@--------</a> qui, j'e--------is sur, sera hereux a vous re--------g--------

>Unfortunately, my primarly lack is a lack of time, so I have to warn you
>that the job could take quite a long time to complete.

- Ita. Verum est, quod dicentur, 'Ars longa, vita brevis'.

>Just one more question, I'd like to know if there are other French Nova
>Roman citizens ?

- A <www.novaroma.org/tabularium/album_gentium> se trouvent quatre
gentes de la provence de Gallia:

I. Aemiliana (Paterf. Propercius Aemilianus)
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=070212020098158153171149203043129208071" >eri--------o@--------</a>
II. Flaminia (Paterf. Tib. Flaminius Mercator)
<pas d'URL>
III. Petronia (Materf. Attica Petronia Gallica)
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=060056114056127124138056026140053239018058143136053171173045091205142076" >PeterElizabethPrice@--------</a>
IV. Valeria (Paterf. Marus Valerius Quadrasus)
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=053075113150146194033082190" >quad@--------</a>

- en esperant que cela vous aide,

N. Moravius Vado

(mi-francophone sans dictionnaire).


>Omni deorum honores quoque habo
>Vale
>I. Querius Armoricus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re:Lamest Roman Joke
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:32:33 EDT

Is this the punch line?

On 4/20/00 9:43 AM Jay C (<a href="/--------/novaroma?--------ectID=029176234007127072112223203176129208071" >minorgod@--------</a>) wrote:

>Remomve me from the list!


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	"Gladiator" A new movie.
From:	"J.D. Porter" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=197233192165082194105056163101081165094048139046" >poeticfiend@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 21:39:15 GMT

Salvete!!

The other night I caught just the end of an advertisement of a new movie
called Gladiator, spelled in Roman capitals, to be released mid-May. I found
the official website.
"<a href="http://spielberg-dreamworks.com/gladiator/index.html#" target="_top" >http://spielberg-dreamworks.com/gladiator/index.html#</a>

It looks very good visually and the plot seems interesting. It seems like
a very large budgeted affair with all sorts of merchandise available to be
purchased. I was greatly impressed by a prominent link on the site "Learn
more about the Roman Empire".

I will definitely go see it when it comes out. I hope it's as good as it
seems.

-Gaius Tullius Triumphius Cicero
Senator, Preator of Eastern Canada
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] "Gladiator" A new movie.
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:57:45 EDT

Salve!

I am so going to see that movie!!! ROFLMAO!! ((Lots of Loud Cheering and
Whooping All over the place)), :-)
<< Salvete!!

The other night I caught just the end of an advertisement of a new movie
called Gladiator, spelled in Roman capitals, to be released mid-May. I found
the official website.
"<a href="http://spielberg-dreamworks.com/gladiator/index.html#" target="_top" >http://spielberg-dreamworks.com/gladiator/index.html#</a>

It looks very good visually and the plot seems interesting. It seems like
a very large budgeted affair with all sorts of merchandise available to be
purchased. I was greatly impressed by a prominent link on the site "Learn
more about the Roman Empire".

I will definitely go see it when it comes out. I hope it's as good as it
seems.

-Gaius Tullius Triumphius Cicero
Senator, Preator of Eastern Canada
___________________ >>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Genti Novae Romae in Gallia
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:30:58 -0700

Salve!

Just a note to everyone. Just because the Paterfamilias might be located in
a specific province doesnt necessarily mean that everyone in that Gens is
also in that province. Citizens in Nova Roma are scattered throughout the
world. We have Citizens in Gaul who are not pater/materfamilia's. :) One
of the tasks I am working on is giving information such as citizens
information to their appropriate governor. :) I know in both the
California Provinca (via an e-mail list) and in the South East United States
Provinca (via a website) both list their citizens. Hopefully other
governor's will implement something for their province to facilitate
communication.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 1:22 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Genti Novae Romae in Gallia


> Salve, mi Armorice!
>
> >Thank you for your response.
>
> - de rien!
>
> >I would be delighted to help by providing a French translation of some
> >parts
> >of the website.
>
> - le peuple de la Rome Neuve vous en remercira. Et plus, les Gaulois!
>
> >The point is that I'm not a professionnal translator,
>
> - n'importe pas.
>
> >in
> >fact I have a scientifical background, but I think I would be able to do
an
> >acceptable job. In fact, I work as an actuary (financial engineer) in a
> >financial company. The latin etymology of the word actuary is
"actuarius":
> >a
> >person who, according to my sources, was in charge of record keeping,
> >accounting, and writing the reports of what was said and decided during
the
> >Senate sessions, and (assumption) translating them... The actuarius was
> >also
> >a military intendant. It would be funny to make history repeating...
>
> - L'histoire se repete toujours, comme dit Hegel.
>
> >Just let me know the parts you which to have translated, I'll see what I
> >can
> >do for you.
>
> - Ce n'est pas a moi a decider quelles parties seront les mieux a
traduire:
> veuillez contacter le Curator Aranei (dont le nom m'echappe) a
> <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=125056250213158233050038109248006208071048" >webmaster@--------</a> qui, j'e--------is sur, sera hereux a vous renseigner.
>
> >Unfortunately, my primarly lack is a lack of time, so I have to warn you
> >that the job could take quite a long time to complete.
>
> - Ita. Verum est, quod dicentur, 'Ars longa, vita brevis'.
>
> >Just one more question, I'd like to know if there are other French Nova
> >Roman citizens ?
>
> - A <www.novaroma.org/tabularium/album_gentium> se trouvent quatre
> gentes de la provence de Gallia:
>
> I. Aemiliana (Paterf. Propercius Aemilianus)
> <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=070212020098158153171149203043129208071" >eri--------o@--------</a>
> II. Flaminia (Paterf. Tib. Flaminius Mercator)
> <pas d'URL>
> III. Petronia (Materf. Attica Petronia Gallica)
> <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=060056114056127124138056026140053239018058143136053171173045091205142076" >PeterElizabethPrice@--------</a>
> IV. Valeria (Paterf. Marus Valerius Quadrasus)
> <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=053075113150146194033082190" >quad@--------</a>
>
> - en esperant que cela vous aide,
>
> N. Moravius Vado
>
> (mi-francophone sans dictionnaire).
>
>
> >Omni deorum honores quoque habo
> >Vale
> >I. Querius Armoricus
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
> already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
> find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956262174/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956262174/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

Subject:	Brother Cadfael (Derek Jacobi)
From:	"Augusti--------ulia Caesaria Noctur--------#34; <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=091176219007018031015158190036129" >--------la@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:48:08 +0100

>
> - Ita. The monk (lay brother actually, they got his habit wrong in the TV
> series) is Brother Cadfael, the 'village' is Shrewsbury (tsk, tsk!) and
the
> sherriff is Berenger. TV adaptations from the novels (which explore
tensions
> between Welsh, English and Norman, and supporters in the civil war of King
> Stephen and Empress Mathilda) by Ellis Peters, aka Edith Pargetter in more
> highbrow historical fiction mode and who wrote, inter alia, a splendid
> quartet on Prince Llewellyn ap Grufydd ap Gwynedd (the last independent
> ruler of Wales), his alliance with Simon de Montfort against Henry III in
> the Barons' War and, later, against Edward I. Recommended if you like
> historical fiction set in medieval Britain. Enough non-Roman
digression:-).


I HIGHLY recomend Brother Cadfael!!!

Noct'a

------------------------------------------------
Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia
Materfamilias of the British gens Iulia Caesaria
etc, etc, etc

Subject:	Re: Pronunciation of Latin
From:
Date:	Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:17:22 EDT

The pronunciation of Latin has changed over the course of centuries, as has
that of every language on earth. The way in which we can rather accurately
determine how a language was pronounced at an earlier time is by
investigating the internal linguistic evidence of the language. That is, we
compare the forms of the same word to see of spelling reveals any clues as to
pronunciation. We also compare the historical development of pronunciation
in relation to related languages, such as the comparison of Italian and Latin.

In the case of the hard c sound of classical Latin, that is well attested as
fact by the observation that many of the spellings dating back to around the
fourth century AD reveal that the letters c and k were used interchangeably
in transcribing Latin, depending on the taste of the scribe. This gives
rather convincing evidence that the original sound of both letters was a
single hard consonant, as appears in the modern German derivation Kaiser.

As for the difference in pronunciation between Italy and the United States,
that is really a matter again of history. The Latin used by the Roman
Catholic Church from its beginnings until the present day is the best
indication of the evolution of the Latin language from the time of the
Romans. By the high Middle Ages, the pronunciation of Latin had become what
we now call "Ecclesiastical" or "Medieval" Latin. This pronunciation was the
basis for the development of the Italian language as a local idiom of Latin.
That is also the prefered pronunciation of Latin retained in much of
continental Europe and within the Catholic Church. It is not as authentic as
the classical pronunciation advocated in Great Britain and America, but it
has the familiar ring of long, long famililar use to it.