Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	24 Apr 2000 17:11:12 -0700

OK, I just read through the major tempest this has caused fairly quickly (I'm at work). This is my perspective on the issue.

The edict as presented is correct. That's the way it works in any nation. When you become a citizen, you select a name consonant with your physical gender.

Having said that, I have a rather large "however." IF a citizen wishes to use a name other than his/her legal name, that should be her/his prerogative, as long as the intent is not to avoid the law.

As a further "however," there must be a legal method established for citizens to change names. Be it for personal reasons (I just don't like my name), or more obvious ones (I'm now functioning as a member of society whose gender is no longer consonant with my name; I want to change it).

IF these items are met in future laws or edicta, then there is not (or should not be) a problem with current law. Law is a fluid thing, and needs to be reviewed and changed frequently.

Anyway, that's just my view on the matter.

M. Stellatinus
Laci Magni

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:39:45 EDT

Salve!

So you say. I say he's wrong. In any case, HE says he didn't make any
decision -- don't pick on him -- he just upheld a prior decision made by
his predecessors.

By the way, given the trend of grand self-proclaimed cognomena around
here lately, I'm thinking of becoming ....

Lucius Sergius Australicus Optimus Maximus

(What do you think?)

On 4/24/00 6:46 PM Micha--------arconi (<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a>) wrot--------r>
>Sulla is right! Let the issue die! If someone is not sure weather they are
>a man
>or woman then they need professional help. I believe that Sulla's decision
>was
>the best one available! It is for the good of Nova Roma--as a whole, not
>bending
>to the special needs of so few.
>
>Tacitus

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:53:50 -0700

Why am I not being allowed to vote?

That is my question. If my vote is going through,
then I wish to be notified. I now know that I am not the only one
this is happening to. I've read the messages.
I have seen NO ANSWERS. I have more to say, but I will
hold it for now.

Is there a problem?
Has the problem been fixed?
If so, When?
Will the voting time be extended to make up for these lost 26 hours?

C. Aelius Ericius.
Senator of Nova Roma.
Augur. Pontifex.
Paterfamilias gens Aelia.
Former Propraetor of California and Nevada.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:05:56 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/24/00 4:21:24 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:

<< Thats exactly my point; because Nova Roma has written into its
constitution
"equal rights" accross the board, in a Roman way of thinking there should be
no logical reason to impersonate someone of the opposite sex. >>

It's not an "impersonation"...it's an "identification". If someone
identifies with the opposite gender, then that person should have every right
to call him/herself by whatever name he or she chooses. And that is "equal
rights"!

--Dexippa


Subject:	Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:08:38 -0400

Salvete,

From: Mar--------O--------ius Germani-------- hu----------------
What's "PCBS"?

L Equitius: PCBS = Politically Correct Bull Sh-t

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> Ok...but for those of us still confused on the issue....this is NOVA Roma.
> THIS IS NOT ANCIENT ROME! If it was, women would not be able to hold
> positions in the government and would still be viewed as property. And we'd
> have slaves...lots of them!

M. Octavius:
I agree. Discrimination of any kind needs to be consigned to the dustbin
of history, as we did with slavery and the subjugation of women.

L Equitius: Where, pray tell is the "Discrimination"?? There is no discrimination in requiring citizens or prospective citizens to be truthful in their dealings. Take a look at some of the reasoning for the formation of Nova Roma. No one has been "discriminated" against. One ex-citizen asked to change her name from the first declension (feminine) to the second declension (masculine) and was denied. How is this "Discrimination"? What "right" was denied?
"The Via Romana is the Roman Way of life. It is the direct application of Roman ethics, virtues, and philosophies in everyday life, and it is one of the goals of NOVA ROMA to promote the Via Romana among its citizens. One of the cornerstones of the Via Romana are the Virtues; those qualities which define the ideal state of being and behavior of the Roman Citizen. While no one can ever completely and perfectly embody the Virtues, they remain as the goal towards which we strive, and serve as the benchmark against which we may measure ourselves."

L Equtius: One of which is Veritas: "Truthfulness" Honesty in dealing with others.

<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/virtues.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/virtues.html</a>

M. Octavius:
Should a citizen wish to present themselves in a manner inconsistent with
their anatomy, that should be a private matter of no concern to anyone
but the Gods.
M. Octavius Germanicus

L Equitius: This is your opinion, not one shared by me and others or the structure of the Latin language. As has been pointed out there were occupations that were filled primarily by men that were named by first declension nouns (Scriba, Nauta, Agricola, Poeta), but the man's name would not have been changed to agree with his job, nonne?

There are the "However"s, should the material facts change then a given item should be reconsidered. But then they wouldn't be what they were, would they?

The main reason for this post are these groundless accusations of "Discrimination", an 'abused' word these days. There is no 'discrimination'.

From: LSergAust LSergAust@--------
>By the way, given the trend of grand self-proclaimed cognomena around
>here lately, I'm thinking of becoming ....

>Lucius Sergius Australicus Optimus Maximus

>(What do you think?)

Cincinnatus: Maybe a tad impious ;-) I'll save Optimus Maxiumus for Iupiter, besides I like Lucius Sergius Australicus just the way he is!

Valete, Lucius Equitius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:08:57 EDT

I fail to see the logic and the reasoning behind it. It is based on
gender-biasness and should be overturned. It is discriminatory against
trans-gendered people who may wish to find a home here in Nova Roma.

A person's "name" does not inhibit them from being a good citizen of Nova
Roma. Let's not set laws which seek to control individual freedoms.

--Dexippa

In a m--------g--------t--------/24/00 4:29:10 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<<
I understand your concern. However, this precedent was established
under the
Censorship of Flavius Vedius Germancius and Decius Iunius Palladius. I
spoke
with Quintius Fabius when we had our meeting and he and I both felt that
this is
something that we should make an Edicta. >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:13:54 EDT

In a message dated 4/24/00 4:59:48 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a> writes:

<>

And would it matter? Would you care for a fellow citizen any less if she or
he was a gender other than what you previously thought? C'mon Crys! I'm
surprised at you!

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:17:37 EDT

In a m--------g--------t--------/24/00 6:39:12 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< Sulla is right! Let the issue die! If someone is not sure weather they are
a man
or woman then they need professional help. I believe that Sulla's decision
was
the best one available! It is for the good of Nova Roma--as a whole, not
bending
to the special needs of so few. >>

And this is the same freaking Marconi who attacked the Gods of Rome and
condemned all NR's Pagan Citizen's to HELL! FYATHYRIO!

Sulla...I'm WAAAAAAYYYYYYY dissapointed in you for passing this legislation!

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:18:53 EDT

Under the second declension noun endings there is a set of neuter endings,
and the third declension noun endings are the same for both male and female.
If someone is truely "hermaphrodite" or "blank?" they should use these
associations.

<< I fail to see the logic and the reasoning behind it. It is based on
gender-biasness and should be overturned. It is discriminatory against
trans-gendered people who may wish to find a home here in Nova Roma.

A person's "name" does not inhibit them from being a good citizen of Nova
Roma. Let's not set laws which seek to control individual freedoms.

--Dexippa >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:27:29 EDT

Salve Everyone with Voting Problems

I've discovered that "some" mail programs do not work properly with the new
cista voting system... to correct this problem first set up your email to
work with "Outlook Express" or one of the older Microsoft Mail Programs (or
use the program to create a new mail address using Hotmail). Then change
your default mail to Outlook express by following these steps:

1: Open Microsoft Internet Explorer
2: Select the heading "Tools"
3: Select "Internet Options" under "Tools"
4: Click on the Tab "Programs"
5: Change the "E-mail" setting to "Outlook Express" (or whatever program)
6: Push "OK"
7: Go to www.novaroma.org and vote!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:39:43 EDT

In a m--------g--------t--------/24/00 8:09:25 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=081056091108082153015038190036129" >v--------l@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< L Equitius: Where, pray tell is the "Discrimination"?? There is no
discrimination in requiring citizens or prospective citizens to be truthful
in their dealings. Take a look at some of the reasoning for the formation of
Nova Roma. No one has been "discriminated" against. One ex-citizen asked to
change her name from the first declension (feminine) to the second declension
(masculine) and was denied. How is this "Discrimination"? What "right" was
denied? >>

It is discriminatory because you are legislating "identity". A citizen
should have the right to determine how she or he is to be addressed: in the
masculine or in the feminine - regardless of what his or her physical gender
is.

There are people in our society who do have a gender identification issue.
They may be transgendered (wholly or partially) or they may just choose to
dress, act, and appear as a member of the opposite sex. They should feel as
welcomed here as any of us. And to turn to them and say, "You can't be
called Fimbria, you have to be called Fimbrius" is discriminatory. None of
us use our "Roman" names in our mundane lives. We chose these names to
identify with Roma or with a personage from Ancient Rome. What difference
should it make to any of us if someone chooses such outside his or her gender?

<<<<<
"The Via Romana is the Roman Way of life. It is the direct application of
Roman ethics, virtues, and philosophies in everyday life, and it is one of
the goals of NOVA ROMA to promote the Via Romana among its citizens. One of
the cornerstones of the Via Romana are the Virtues; those qualities which
define the ideal state of being and behavior of the Roman Citizen. While no
one can ever completely and perfectly embody the Virtues, they remain as the
goal towards which we strive, and serve as the benchmark against which we may
measure ourselves." >>>

And where in the virtues does it say "boys must be boys and girls must be
girls". C'mon. Are you going to say that although NR says it doesn't
discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, it's only to the point that
gays and lesbians don't admit it of themselves?

<<The main reason for this post are these groundless accusations of
"Discrimination", an 'abused' word these days. There is no 'discrimination'.>>

Yes there is...for the reasons mentioned above.

--Dexippa


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:42:16 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/24/00 8:20:16 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:

<< Under the second declension noun endings there is a set of neuter endings,
and the third declension noun endings are the same for both male and female.

If someone is truely "hermaphrodite" or "blank?" they should use these
associations. >>

That is your opinion and may not be shared by the individual. A person may
be wholly one gender but identify with the other...a person may have the
organs of both gender but identify only with one. You (or anyone else for
that matter) should not legislate "gender identification" in an organization
promoting openness and tolerance.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:48:27 -0700

Salvete.

This is not well done. Not at all. This edict goes counter to the
profession of Nova Roma being open to all regardless to their
sexual orientation. I believe I understand what L. Cornelius Sulla
Censor is trying to accomplish. I also understand, from some
personal experience with friends here in San Francisco, that
the issue of gender orientation is not as simple as Jerry Falwell
and ilk want people to keep on believing. There are degrees,
of a sort, but not to the individual that the, may I call it "Struggle",
struggle is going on within. My comespiritu L. Marius Fimbria
is an example I can cite at least in regards to the matter not being
easy or clear. As far as I know, this is the first time Marius Fimbria
has said that his gender identification is male. Marius, while the
recent flap was going on we chatted a bit and you kept asserting
that the masculine name was the Roman persona you had always been
since you realized your Romanitas. People do not like "coming out".
PERIOD! Oh, not so Period. Some seem to flaunt their whatever.
But I believe that they do that after much struggle, and possibly as
a result and reaction to all the time they were not out.

It is very possible that the way this edict is presently worded could
be hurtful to Nova Roma. It could be fairly cited as an example that
Nova Roma is not, despite its public documents, open to all people
regardless of their gender and sexual orientation. From the very small
discussion that came up on the matter of cross gender identification I
know that there is not much in the way of understanding. I am not
allowed to tell what was said in those posts, even if the Senate of
Nova Roma was as open to public observation as the Senate of
Roma antiqua, I believe those exchanges would have been behind
closed doors. They were all marked by a desire to understand,
even as they were marked by not really understanding. I am not
saying that *_ I _* understand this issue. [Issue in Nova Roma and
in our home countries.] But I have been living in San Francisco for
the last 35 years. I have had a number of friends of possibly all the
genders. [Plato stopped counting too soon!] I have learned a few
things. I always learn from friends.

I believe that the Edicts of the Censors can only be negated by the
Censors. In some cases this would be unfortunate. In this case it
doesn't really matter. I do not believe the Senate would override
this edict, if it had that right, and it does not. I do not believe the
People of Nova Roma would cancel it out, if they had that power,
and that isn't in their jurisdiction either. I think this is another frightful
inauspicious event in the life of Nova Roma.

Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.
Paterfamilias of gens Aelia
Senator of Nova Roma
Augur. Pontifex.
former Propraetor of California and Nevada

Dexippus wrote:

> Salvete...
>
> >I would be careful with this Sulla.
> >
> > What if a trans-gendered or transvestite person wants to be a citizen
> > and truly identifies with the opposite gender? Should not that
> > person have the right to call him/herself by a name identified by
> > that gender identification?
> >
> >--Dex
>
> We already had this one, Dexippe. When I first applied for Citizenship
> (almost two years ago) I was not yet all the way 'out', so I submitted
> a female (if not especially feminine) Roman name. Since then I have
> become increasingly aware of my identity with the male gender.
> However, repeated attempts to get my Roman name changed over to match
> my self-concept have been met with varying degrees of shock and
> disdain. My most recent petition was grievously mishandled by Sulla
> Censor before being bluntly dismissed as a 'non-issue', all in a manner
> calculated to cause me the most humiliation possible. This in an
> organization that claims non-discrimination regardless of race,
> ethnicity, creed (as long as you're tolerant), gender, or orientation!
> --The incident was the final act in a string of abuses that led to my
> departure from Nova Roma.
>
> This same Sulla, who on a whim cognominated himself 'Felix' without
> having to go through any magisterial rigmarole whatsoever, has not seen
> fit to respond to my repeated offers to continue assisting him with the
> Roman-name requests in an unofficial, advisory capacity; though I made
> my willingness known even in my resignation letter, as in several
> unanswered messages since.
> ***********************************************************
> Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
> <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
> Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
> Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
> and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
> 'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
> bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
> *somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:56:49 -0700

as for the self proclaimed Cognomen.....Please everyone remember that it was
Decius Iunius Palladius who proclaimed me "Felix." He proclaimed that to me in
PUBLIC in the E-mail list with his Closing Consul Speech. I then proclaimed
him Invictus.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:

> Salve!
>
> So you say. I say he's wrong. In any case, HE says he didn't make any
> decision -- don't pick on him -- he just upheld a prior decision made by
> his predecessors.
>
> By the way, given the trend of grand self-proclaimed cognomena around
> here lately, I'm thinking of becoming ....
>
> Lucius Sergius Australicus Optimus Maximus
>
> (What do you think?)
>
> On 4/24/00 6:46 PM Micha--------arconi (<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a>) wrot--------font>
>
> >Sulla is right! Let the issue die! If someone is not sure weather they are
> >a man
> >or woman then they need professional help. I believe that Sulla's decision
> >was
> >the best one available! It is for the good of Nova Roma--as a whole, not
> >bending
> >to the special needs of so few.
> >
> >Tacitus
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Now the best and coolest websites come right to you based on your
> unique interests. eTour.com is surfing without searching.
> And, it's FREE!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3013/4/_/61050/_/956623194/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3013/4/_/61050/_/956623194/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:03:15 -0700

NO!
I am not changing the configuration of my computer to Outlook Express.

I have been able to vote in all the other NR elections. If my setting
are
no longer good enough for the way things are set up, then it is
because
somebody set them up differently. What about those of us who do not
have Outlook Express (a Microsoft product, Sic?)?

If the Cista has been set up so I can not vote, then I must gather
that
I am not desired to vote. Of course I do not believe that, but --
if I might suggest something radical -- if it is broken, Fix It! Do
not
require the voters to change their machines.

When Nova Roma started it went through a number of chat rooms
so that as many citizens, and non-citizens, as possible could access
the
thing. We have talked about changing the server for this list because

it gives some people trouble. Can we not have a voting process that
is
usable by all citizens?

C. Aelius Ericius
Senator of Nova Roma.
Augur. Pontifex.
Paterfamilias of gens Aelia.
Former Propraetor of California Provincia.

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; wrote:

> Salve Everyone with Voting Problems
>
> I've discovered that "some" mail programs do not work properly with
> the new
> cista voting system... to correct this problem first set up your
> email to
> work with "Outlook Express" or one of the older Microsoft Mail
> Programs (or
> use the program to create a new mail address using Hotmail). Then
> change
> your default mail to Outlook express by following these steps:
>
> 1: Open Microsoft Internet Explorer
> 2: Select the heading "Tools"
> 3: Select "Internet Options" under "Tools"
> 4: Click on the Tab "Programs"
> 5: Change the "E-mail" setting to "Outlook Express" (or whatever
> program)
> 6: Push "OK"
> 7: Go to www.novaroma.org and vote!
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:08:17 -0700

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:

> In a m--------g--------t--------/24/00 6:39:12 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
> << Sulla is right! Let the issue die! If someone is not sure weather they are
> a man
> or woman then they need professional help. I believe that Sulla's decision
> was
> the best one available! It is for the good of Nova Roma--as a whole, not
> bending
> to the special needs of so few. >>
>
> And this is the same freaking Marconi who attacked the Gods of Rome and
> condemned all NR's Pagan Citizen's to HELL! FYATHYRIO!
>
> Sulla...I'm WAAAAAAYYYYYYY dissapointed in you for passing this legislation!

Sulla: Dex, I am sorry this issue even had to come up. But, with investigation
and consultation with the previous Censors I have decided to uphold the precedent
based upon the reasoning that they used. And, with that, I have passed an Edicta
to make it stronger. Dex, Latin as a language has gender specifications, it only
makes sense that we, as Nova Romans, who are trying to resurrect many of the
customs and traditions that not only Roman Culture but in dealing with the Latin
Language itself. This is an extension of that implementation.

The seriousness of the organization would be subtle erroded if anyone could pick a
name without regard. We an age limit for citizenship, we have an age limit for
office holders, now we have a slight limitation on the usage of names. Our laws
reflect our seriousness and our degree of determination in reviving, as much as
possible, Ancient Roman Culture and Roman Virture, as Lucius Equitius pointed out
earlier. I am sorry you disagree.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:10:31 -0700

Donald and Crystal Meaker wrote:

> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:29:35 -0700
> From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
> Subject: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
>
> Beginning immediately all applicants who apply for citizenship in Nova
> Roma have their gender consistent with their Roman Name. In other
> words, if you are male your Roman name must reflect your physical
> gender. Just as if you are female your Roman Name must reflect your
> physical gender. Just as the Latin language is gender driven, that
> tradition is hereby officially adopted in Nova Roma.
>
> <Crys Materna>
>
> I SWEAR I am not trying to start anything here, but I will assume that,
> should a member of Nova Roma at some time in the future undergo a sex
> change, their name would change to reflect this?
>
> I am thrilled that something has finally been done about this. I don't
> have enough confusing things going on I need to try to guess if a member
> is male or female.
>

Sulla: If there is a sex change operation, then there would be a change of
Gender, therefore they could change their name, without any impediment.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:16:55 -0500

Salve and thank you very much for your well-meant suggestions, BUT

I don't have Microsoft's Internet Exploder on my computer, nor do I have
Outlook Express, and I don't plan to totally switch my system around and
become another victim of Bill Gates just because the Cista is improperly
designed.

I do have Claris Emailer configured to send a message when I click on a
mail link in Netscape Navigator, but if we were supposed to vote by
sending an email to Augustina Iulia, why didn't someone just say so to
begin with?

If that's what I need to do now, someone needs to tell me what
information to put in the email message and what subject she's going to
look for.

What needs to happen now is that someone needs to fix the Cista so that
it functions properly for all of us.
Someone also needs to check the votes and determine who's have been left
out so that they aren't disenfranchised.

It may well be that we need to declare this election a failed disaster
and plan another one to do it right in the very near future. Certainly if
any citizen contests it, it will be dead, and there may be several who
will contest it because they apparently didn't get to vote.

Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis

On 4/24/00 8:27 PM <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; (<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------;) wrote:

>Salve Everyone with Voting Problems
>
>I've discovered that "some" mail programs do not work properly with the new
>cista voting system... to correct this problem first set up your email to
>work with "Outlook Express" or one of the older Microsoft Mail Programs (or
>use the program to create a new mail address using Hotmail). Then change
>your default mail to Outlook express by following these steps:
>
>1: Open Microsoft Internet Explorer
>2: Select the heading "Tools"
>3: Select "Internet Options" under "Tools"
>4: Click on the Tab "Programs"
>5: Change the "E-mail" setting to "Outlook Express" (or whatever program)
>6: Push "OK"
>7: Go to www.novaroma.org and vote!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:20:43 -0500 (CDT)

> If the Cista has been set up so I can not vote, then I must gather
> that I am not desired to vote. Of course I do not believe that, but --
> if I might suggest something radical -- if it is broken, Fix It! Do
> not require the voters to change their machines.

In less than an hour, I can build an entirely server-based voting
application that will work with any client-side software configuration,
that will mail votes in real time, assign confirmation numbers, and
keep a record that could later be audited. I guarantee 100% reliability.

Censor, Consuls, may I proceed?

M. Octavius Germanicus

---
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:24:56 -0500

Pace Lucius Cornelius! It wasn't your cognomen that set me off -- it was
the hint of another self-proclaimed "Magnus." Besides, you're just
staying "in character" -- your namesake also took that cognomen. Anyway,
that was meant as sarcastic fun-poking -- not as the start of another
flame war.

Lucius Sergius Australicus the Obnoxious (my Latin fails me)

On 4/24/00 8:56 PM Lucius Corn--------s Sulla (<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>) wrot--------r>
>as for the self proclaimed Cognomen.....Please everyone remember that it was
>Decius Iunius Palladius who proclaimed me "Felix." He proclaimed that to
>me in
>PUBLIC in the E-mail list with his Closing Consul Speech. I then proclaimed
>him Invictus.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:21:17 -0700

Salve

I dont think I could even comment on this. You might want to e-mail the
<a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=061056234237175198015158190036129" >se--------@--------</a>.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:

> > If the Cista has been set up so I can not vote, then I must gather
> > that I am not desired to vote. Of course I do not believe that, but --
> > if I might suggest something radical -- if it is broken, Fix It! Do
> > not require the voters to change their machines.
>
> In less than an hour, I can build an entirely server-based voting
> application that will work with any client-side software configuration,
> that will mail votes in real time, assign confirmation numbers, and
> keep a record that could later be audited. I guarantee 100% reliability.
>
> Censor, Consuls, may I proceed?
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus
>
> ---
> Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
> konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
> Graveyards of Chicago: |
> <a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get 3 months FREE and a chance to WIN a trip to London, England when
> you receive, manage and pay your bills online with Paytrust.com!
> Stamps, checks and bills in your mailbox are history. Enroll Today!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3556/4/_/61050/_/956629258/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3556/4/_/61050/_/956629258/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:25:00 -0700

Sulla: Ok cool..... :)

Ira Adams wrote:

> Pace Lucius Cornelius! It wasn't your cognomen that set me off -- it was
> the hint of another self-proclaimed "Magnus." Besides, you're just
> staying "in character" -- your namesake also took that cognomen. Anyway,
> that was meant as sarcastic fun-poking -- not as the start of another
> flame war.
>

Sulla: As a matter of fact that was something else we discussed in the
California Meeting...but I am not going to say anything else in leiu of starting
another flame war! :)

Sulla Felix
Censor

>
> Lucius Sergius Australicus the Obnoxious (my Latin fails me)
>
> On 4/24/00 8:56 PM Lucius Corn--------s Sulla (<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>) wrot--------font>
>
> >as for the self proclaimed Cognomen.....Please everyone remember that it was
> >Decius Iunius Palladius who proclaimed me "Felix." He proclaimed that to
> >me in
> >PUBLIC in the E-mail list with his Closing Consul Speech. I then proclaimed
> >him Invictus.
> >
> >Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >Censor
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956629511/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956629511/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:26:57 -0700

Razenna wrote:

> Salvete.
>
> This is not well done. Not at all. This edict goes counter to the
> profession of Nova Roma being open to all regardless to their
> sexual orientation.

Sulla: My Edicta has no impact on sexual orientation. My edicta has to do with
gender identification. Gay, Lesbian, Bi-Sexuals are more than welcome in Nova
Roma. Please keep in mind that my Edicta covers Citizenship Applications. Once
approved only official documents will need to be properly addressed. Informally
anyone can call themselves anything they want.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


Subject:	Gender Modification
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:31:21 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

While I think there is another tempest in a teacup brewing, I have a thought
or three about the on-going debate as to gender identification.

As a legal professional, it is my understanding that if a person surgically
alters his or her birth gender, a civil court is empowered to issue an order
officially "changing" that person's gender as stated on his or her birth
certificate to that which he or she has chosen and achieved surgically.
Thus, it would appear that there is precedent for legal recognition of gender
change, provided that it is "completed" via medical means.

Making seemingly reasonable inferences from this, I believe that it is not
inconsistent or indicative of any sort of prejudice if the government of Nova
Roma should rule that a citizen's gender is that stated on his or her birth
certificate or, alternatively, consonant with an order of civil court of the
nation in which the citizen lives. Furthermore, because it is also a
decision made by the government of Nova Roma that Latin names be adopted by
citizens, and because a Latin name de sua natura denotes biological gender,
it is not unreasonable to expect that a citizen's Latin name follow this
pattern for legal, NR purposes.

If a citizen wishes to personally identify with the opposite biological
gender that is certainly his or her business. Perhaps such a citizen might
choose a preferred agnomen in addition to the "statutory" nomenclature and
simply request that fellow citizens use such nickname. It would seem a
reasonable compromise until such individual completes his or her
identification with the opposite gender via more permanent means.

It is my personal opinion that the use of a Latin name opposite to one's
gender is a slightly adolescent misrepresentation which smacks just a bit of
less-than-serious "role playing." I, for one, take Nova Roma as something
more important and valuable than an antiquarian D&D game or cyberspace Mardi
Gras. However, if "Lucius Masculinus Virilis" wishes to be informally styled
"Virilla" by his friends, I have no great objection to humouring his whim --
but I don't think an honest and ancient Roman tradition should be thrown out
the window because such a compromise is deemed by "Virilla" to be
insufficient formal recognition of his personal wishes.

I close by remembering that the most famous of "gay" Emperors, the Divine
Hadrian, kept his private life and relationships out of the public sphere and
piously separate from his office; as a result he was applauded from one end
of the Empire to the other and his young lover was elevated to divine status
after his death. On the other hand, Elagabalus who commanded that he be
referred to as "Domina Imperatrix" ended up being murdered by his own guard,
together with his lover and jettisoned into the Tiber. The moral of this (if
there is one), is that among the Roman Virtues one of the most formidable
seems to be Discretion.

Tempestatem expectans, omnibus omnes Virtutes volo,
Acadianus Draco


Subject:	From Christopher Paterna
From:	Donald and Crystal Meaker <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:04:02 -0700

Message: 19
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:13:54 EDT
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
Subject: Re: Gender reflection

In a message dated 4/24/00 4:59:48 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a> writes:

<>

And would it matter? Would you care for a fellow citizen any less if she
or
he was a gender other than what you previously thought? C'mon Crys! I'm

surprised at you!

--Dex

<><><><><><>

And the vegetarian and the meat eater agree to disagree AGAIN <VBG>.

Listen Dex, *you* came into Nova Roma as open and honest as you are
today. You are a man. You are gay. You took a male name. Should you
someday decide to go under the knife, feel free to change your name to
something more feminine. I think this is what Fimbri(something) should
have done or should do. I like Fimbr and don't particularly care if
he/she/it is male female both or neither. You should know me better than
that.

All I'm sayin is -- look down your pants when you apply. Lump = male.
No lump = female. If this changes during your citizenship, make certain
that someone makes note of it.

I "identify" with blacks and whites. More white than black some days and
more black than white others. Does this mean I can change my name to
reflect that days Afro centrism or lack thereof? I AM black, no matter
WHAT I identify with. Until I find out Michael Jacksons secret skin
bleacher on the shelves, I can do nothing about it.

The day I come out of the hospital with my new penis is the day my name
will change from Crystal to Christopher. Not ONE moment sooner. I will
not try to convince someone I am male just because I WANT to be. That,
IMO is lying and unacceptable. (NO I am not having a sex change. I am
Materna and will not become Paterna, before anyone jumps all over me).

Relate all you want, but remember who you are and if it is unacceptable
to you CHANGE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The big question IMO is : Are our Roman Names a role or are they "Real"?
If they are "real" they should be as real as the person. If they are
just "roles" then they can be anything. Is NR the same as when I was
playing AD&D and was a prepubescent male elf??? I sure hope not.

Pax,
Crys Meaker


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:13:59 EDT

Salvete,

We have a crisis here and this man professes to be able to rescue us.
Let's see some of that "Leadership" s__t, oh you lofty bearers of
Imperium! Somebody authorize our rescue!

Lucius Sergius Australicus
(Who learned to read reading Socrates -- don't you just hate gadflys? Put
down that flyswatter!))

On 4/24/00 9:20 PM Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) wrote:

>> If the Cista has been set up so I can not vote, then I must gather
>> that I am not desired to vote. Of course I do not believe that, but --
>> if I might suggest something radical -- if it is broken, Fix It! Do
>> not require the voters to change their machines.
>
>In less than an hour, I can build an entirely server-based voting
>application that will work with any client-side software configuration,
>that will mail votes in real time, assign confirmation numbers, and
>keep a record that could later be audited. I guarantee 100% reliability.
>
>Censor, Consuls, may I proceed?
>
>M. Octavius Germanicus

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender Modification
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:14:02 EDT

Salve Draco,

The point you're missing, which is understandable if you are a legal
professional, is that government has no business making legal decisions
of any sort about things that we don't need government to decide for us,
and gender identity seems clearly to be one of those things. Someone else
put it more clearly -- "That government governs best which governs least."

I have seen nothing to convince me that trying to live true to a gender
identity different from one's physical genitalia represents any kind of
threat to others or to the nation.

And coming from a group of people who seriously claim to be Romans
although no more than one or two of them has ever been within radio range
of Rome, this uproar about the "dishonesty" of claiming to be something
others think you're not is disingenuous, to put it lightly!

Vale,
Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis

On 4/24/00 9:31 PM <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=243158113150082031172168000208172253098145044009209130152" >--------i--------dr----------------</--------; (<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=243158113150082031172168000208172253098145044009209130152" >--------i--------dr----------------</--------;) wrote:

>Salvete Omnes,
>
>While I think there is another tempest in a teacup brewing, I have a thought
>or three about the on-going debate as to gender identification.
>
>As a legal professional, it is my understanding that if a person surgically
>alters his or her birth gender, a civil court is empowered to issue an order
>officially "changing" that person's gender as stated on his or her birth
>certificate to that which he or she has chosen and achieved surgically.
>Thus, it would appear that there is precedent for legal recognition of
>gender
>change, provided that it is "completed" via medical means.
>
>Making seemingly reasonable inferences from this, I believe that it is not
>inconsistent or indicative of any sort of prejudice if the government of
>Nova
>Roma should rule that a citizen's gender is that stated on his or her birth
>certificate or, alternatively, consonant with an order of civil court of the
>nation in which the citizen lives. Furthermore, because it is also a
>decision made by the government of Nova Roma that Latin names be adopted by
>citizens, and because a Latin name de sua natura denotes biological gender,
>it is not unreasonable to expect that a citizen's Latin name follow this
>pattern for legal, NR purposes.
>
>If a citizen wishes to personally identify with the opposite biological
>gender that is certainly his or her business. Perhaps such a citizen might
>choose a preferred agnomen in addition to the "statutory" nomenclature and
>simply request that fellow citizens use such nickname. It would seem a
>reasonable compromise until such individual completes his or her
>identification with the opposite gender via more permanent means.
>
>It is my personal opinion that the use of a Latin name opposite to one's
>gender is a slightly adolescent misrepresentation which smacks just a bit
>of
>less-than-serious "role playing." I, for one, take Nova Roma as something
>more important and valuable than an antiquarian D&D game or cyberspace Mardi
>Gras. However, if "Lucius Masculinus Virilis" wishes to be informally
>styled
>"Virilla" by his friends, I have no great objection to humouring his whim --
>but I don't think an honest and ancient Roman tradition should be thrown out
>the window because such a compromise is deemed by "Virilla" to be
>insufficient formal recognition of his personal wishes.
>
>I close by remembering that the most famous of "gay" Emperors, the Divine
>Hadrian, kept his private life and relationships out of the public sphere
>and
>piously separate from his office; as a result he was applauded from one end
>of the Empire to the other and his young lover was elevated to divine status
>after his death. On the other hand, Elagabalus who commanded that he be
>referred to as "Domina Imperatrix" ended up being murdered by his own guard,
>together with his lover and jettisoned into the Tiber. The moral of this
>(if
>there is one), is that among the Roman Virtues one of the most formidable
>seems to be Discretion.
>
>Tempestatem expectans, omnibus omnes Virtutes volo,
>Acadianus Draco

sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

(I think some people in togas are plotting against me.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:13:58 EDT

Actually, Caius Aelius, you have it reversed as stated in our current
edition of the Constitution. Magisterial edicta (from ANY magistrate)
have the lowest precedence of any form of legal authority in our
government. They can be set aside by Senatorial consulta or by laws
passed by any of the Comitiae (i.e., by the people), as well as by a few
other authorities listed (Section I, paragraph B). The order of
precedence is very clearly stated and there are no special exceptions for
censorial edicts. The only exception, made clear later in the
Constitution, is that the Tribunes of the Plebs (acting collegiately,
thanks to Flavius Vedius) can overturn any act of anyone except a
Dictator or an Interrex.

So the Senate could reverse Lucius Cornelius' ruling (but it won't) as
could any of the Comitiae.

Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis et Sea Lawyer (my Latin fails me again!)

On 4/24/00 8:48 PM Raz-------- (<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a>) wrot--------r>
>I believe that the Edicts of the Censors can only be negated by the
>Censors. In some cases this would be unfortunate. In this case it
>doesn't really matter. I do not believe the Senate would override
>this edict, if it had that right, and it does not. I do not believe the
>People of Nova Roma would cancel it out, if they had that power,
>and that isn't in their jurisdiction either. I think this is another
>frightful
>inauspicious event in the life of Nova Roma.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	on gender debate
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 03:12:13 -0000

Avete omnes :
I would like to express that I agree with the Gender Edicta. I
consider it common sense. I think that a person using a name
belonging to the opposite sex is cheating reality. A person has the
right to have whatever feelings, desires,fantaisies,emotions, sexual
orientation etc., and behave in private life accordingly, but, a
sense of reality must be above all considerations. Reality must be
the guide, I think. In my opinion, that edicta doesn't discriminate
anybody. It shows how seriously this issue is taken. As I stated
above, it's common sense.
Salvete omnes

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:16:22 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:

> We have a crisis here and this man professes to be able to rescue us.
> Let's see some of that "Leadership" s__t, oh you lofty bearers of
> Imperium! Somebody authorize our rescue!

The voting tool is completed, working, and has been thoroughly tested.
I await authorization to reveal its address.

M. Octavius Germanicus, Unix Geek.

---
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender Modification
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:19:38 -0700

But Lucius Sergius, we do have to govern. Thats what we do. I have passed 9
Edictas, each of them is to help make my job easier. Whenever I send a name to
my nomenclator, I am using their experience and knowledge to help determining of
the name they selected is using Correct Latin. This Edicta just reinforces and
adds additional legality to something that has ALWAYS been done in Nova Roma.
Period.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:

> Salve Draco,
>
> The point you're missing, which is understandable if you are a legal
> professional, is that government has no business making legal decisions
> of any sort about things that we don't need government to decide for us,
> and gender identity seems clearly to be one of those things. Someone else
> put it more clearly -- "That government governs best which governs least."
>
> I have seen nothing to convince me that trying to live true to a gender
> identity different from one's physical genitalia represents any kind of
> threat to others or to the nation.
>
> And coming from a group of people who seriously claim to be Romans
> although no more than one or two of them has ever been within radio range
> of Rome, this uproar about the "dishonesty" of claiming to be something
> others think you're not is disingenuous, to put it lightly!
>
> Vale,
> Lucius Sergius Australicus
> Tribunus Plebis
>
> On 4/24/00 9:31 PM <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=243158113150082031172168000208172253098145044009209130152" >--------i--------dr----------------</--------; (<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=243158113150082031172168000208172253098145044009209130152" >--------i--------dr----------------</--------;) wrote:
>
> >Salvete Omnes,
> >
> >While I think there is another tempest in a teacup brewing, I have a thought
> >or three about the on-going debate as to gender identification.
> >
> >As a legal professional, it is my understanding that if a person surgically
> >alters his or her birth gender, a civil court is empowered to issue an order
> >officially "changing" that person's gender as stated on his or her birth
> >certificate to that which he or she has chosen and achieved surgically.
> >Thus, it would appear that there is precedent for legal recognition of
> >gender
> >change, provided that it is "completed" via medical means.
> >
> >Making seemingly reasonable inferences from this, I believe that it is not
> >inconsistent or indicative of any sort of prejudice if the government of
> >Nova
> >Roma should rule that a citizen's gender is that stated on his or her birth
> >certificate or, alternatively, consonant with an order of civil court of the
> >nation in which the citizen lives. Furthermore, because it is also a
> >decision made by the government of Nova Roma that Latin names be adopted by
> >citizens, and because a Latin name de sua natura denotes biological gender,
> >it is not unreasonable to expect that a citizen's Latin name follow this
> >pattern for legal, NR purposes.
> >
> >If a citizen wishes to personally identify with the opposite biological
> >gender that is certainly his or her business. Perhaps such a citizen might
> >choose a preferred agnomen in addition to the "statutory" nomenclature and
> >simply request that fellow citizens use such nickname. It would seem a
> >reasonable compromise until such individual completes his or her
> >identification with the opposite gender via more permanent means.
> >
> >It is my personal opinion that the use of a Latin name opposite to one's
> >gender is a slightly adolescent misrepresentation which smacks just a bit
> >of
> >less-than-serious "role playing." I, for one, take Nova Roma as something
> >more important and valuable than an antiquarian D&D game or cyberspace Mardi
> >Gras. However, if "Lucius Masculinus Virilis" wishes to be informally
> >styled
> >"Virilla" by his friends, I have no great objection to humouring his whim --
> >but I don't think an honest and ancient Roman tradition should be thrown out
> >the window because such a compromise is deemed by "Virilla" to be
> >insufficient formal recognition of his personal wishes.
> >
> >I close by remembering that the most famous of "gay" Emperors, the Divine
> >Hadrian, kept his private life and relationships out of the public sphere
> >and
> >piously separate from his office; as a result he was applauded from one end
> >of the Empire to the other and his young lover was elevated to divine status
> >after his death. On the other hand, Elagabalus who commanded that he be
> >referred to as "Domina Imperatrix" ended up being murdered by his own guard,
> >together with his lover and jettisoned into the Tiber. The moral of this
> >(if
> >there is one), is that among the Roman Virtues one of the most formidable
> >seems to be Discretion.
> >
> >Tempestatem expectans, omnibus omnes Virtutes volo,
> >Acadianus Draco
>
> sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
>
> (I think some people in togas are plotting against me.)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
> already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
> find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956632450/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956632450/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:22:13 -0700

Thank you...I will contact Q. Faibus on the phone immediately....and see if
he is available.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:
>
> > We have a crisis here and this man professes to be able to rescue us.
> > Let's see some of that "Leadership" s__t, oh you lofty bearers of
> > Imperium! Somebody authorize our rescue!
>
> The voting tool is completed, working, and has been thoroughly tested.
> I await authorization to reveal its address.
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus, Unix Geek.
>
> ---
> Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
> konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
> Graveyards of Chicago: |
> <a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from
> Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956632597/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956632597/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:37:01 -0700

Salve

I just spoke to Q. Fabius on the phone. He has giving me the consent to
tell you to Post the LINK to your voting site. Get it up and running
immediately and the election has been extended for 48 hours given the recent
difficulties.

Please Post the link to the website.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Marcus Octavius Germanicus wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:
>
> > We have a crisis here and this man professes to be able to rescue us.
> > Let's see some of that "Leadership" s__t, oh you lofty bearers of
> > Imperium! Somebody authorize our rescue!
>
> The voting tool is completed, working, and has been thoroughly tested.
> I await authorization to reveal its address.
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus, Unix Geek.
>
> ---
> Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
> konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
> Graveyards of Chicago: |
> <a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from
> Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956632597/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956632597/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:43:22 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> I just spoke to Q. Fabius on the phone. He has giving me the consent to
> tell you to Post the LINK to your voting site. Get it up and running
> immediately and the election has been extended for 48 hours given the recent
> difficulties.

Thanks! The new voting tool is at:

<a href="http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html" target="_top" >http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html</a>

(The first page looks identical to the standard Cista page.)

Upon submitting a vote, you'll receive a sequential tracking number
that will ensure that no votes were lost.

M. Octavius Germanicus

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	[novaroma] New CISTA is online - <a href="http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html" target="_top" >http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html</a>
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:52:13 -0500 (CDT)

Due to the problems several people had with the mailto form, I have
built a new voting tool. Its usage has been approved by Consul
Q. Fabius, thanks to the efforts of Censor Sulla.

The new Cista can be found at:

<a href="http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html" target="_top" >http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html</a>

The first page looks identical to the standard Cista page.

Upon submitting a vote, you'll receive a sequential tracking number
that will ensure that no votes were lost.

M. Octavius Germanicus

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] on gender debate
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:39:30 -0500

On 4/24/00 10:12 PM Lucius Pompeius Octavianus (<a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a>)
wrote:

>Avete omnes :
>I would like to express that I agree with the Gender Edicta. I
>consider it common sense. I think that a person using a name
>belonging to the opposite sex is cheating reality. A person has the
>right to have whatever feelings, desires,fantaisies,emotions, sexual
>orientation etc., and behave in private life accordingly, but, a
>sense of reality must be above all considerations. Reality must be
>the guide, I think. In my opinion, that edicta doesn't discriminate
>anybody. It shows how seriously this issue is taken. As I stated
>above, it's common sense.
>Salvete omnes
>
>Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

Really? Then how do you explain someone who presents himself here as
"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus," using a name belonging to a nationality
that died off centuries ago? Looks like "CHEATING REALITY" to me! I guess
your principles don't apply to your own activities, huh?

I mean really, have you people no shame? To seriously present as lame an
argument as this as an appeal to "common sense?" To come here dressed up
in your make-believe-Roman names and berate someone else for
"pretending?" Ecastor!

Lucius Sergius Australicus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender Modification
From:
Date:	Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:39:28 -0500

We have to govern? I guess we do -- we as a species seem condemned to
govern ourselves into oblivion. We haven't yet shown much evidence of
being capable of making government work. Perhaps the operative word there
is "we." We should all be involved in making important decisions that
affect "us." Decisions that affect how we may refer to ourselves should
be made by the people as a whole and not by a lone magistrate (or two or
three or four magistrates). And that is provided for by the Constitution
-- the Comitiae can override your edict. Except that we can't seem to
even make voting work -- LOL!

You're doing a good job, Lucius Cornelius, particularly to be doing it
alone. That I disagree with one of your 9 Edicts, doesn't mean that I
don't think highly of your work.

Lucius Sergius Australicus

On 4/24/00 10:19 PM Lucius Corn--------s Sulla (<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>) wrot--------r>
>But Lucius Sergius, we do have to govern. Thats what we do. I have passed 9
>Edictas, each of them is to help make my job easier. Whenever I send a
>name to
>my nomenclator, I am using their experience and knowledge to help
>determining of
>the name they selected is using Correct Latin. This Edicta just
>reinforces and
>adds additional legality to something that has ALWAYS been done in Nova Roma.
>Period.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor


Subject:	Re: Gender Modification - Tribuno Lucio Sergio et Omnibus
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 01:09:37 EDT

Salve, Tribune, et Salvete omnes!

Thank you for taking the time to read my lengthy comments on the topic.

> The point you're missing, which is understandable if you are a legal
> professional, is that government has no business making legal decisions
> of any sort about things that we don't need government to decide for us,
> and gender identity seems clearly to be one of those things.

I am convinced the question and comments had not to do in any white with
one's gender identity, but with one's civic identification as a Citizen of
Nova Roma. Indeed, I am under the distinct impression that one's
self-identification is a purely personal matter and not one for governmental
concern at all, being solidly protected by the Nova Roman Republic.

> I have seen nothing to convince me that trying to live true to a gender
> identity different from one's physical genitalia represents any kind of
> threat to others or to the nation.

Nor I. But again, Tribune honorate, it is (I believe) Latin names, not
personal identity, which is at the heart of the instant matter. It seems
that not too long ago we all went through a similar hubbub regarding Nova
Romans who were Christians -- whether they could be "true Nova Romans" or
not; it ended up creating a shameful amount of ill-will and apprehension
(based on some personal correspondence I received from troubled fellow
citizens) and really accomplished very little that could be called positive.
This current matter, I think, is even less cause for turmoil. But, if I am
wrong as I not infrequently am, I would ask: Are any of the individuals
personally concerned with this matter so seriously committed to it that he or
she has insisted that the local (non-Nova Roman) Motor Vehicle Department
change the gender specified on his driver's license or identity card? If
not, why is it a matter of such concern within this Republic where all are
welcome, and openly and freely treated as friends and equals. And where
very, very little is required (or even asked) of any of us? In other words,
is this present quest truly a search for justice or simply an exercise in
self-assertiveness to see how far the envelope can be pushed? If the former,
I assure you that I am willing to support it wholeheartedly, despite my
previous observations.

> And coming from a group of people who seriously claim to be Romans
> although no more than one or two of them has ever been within radio range
> of Rome, this uproar about the "dishonesty" of claiming to be something
> others think you're not is disingenuous, to put it lightly!

I am not sure that I follow you, unless you are alluding to individuals on
this List who may have referred to themselves as "Romans" rather than "Nova
Romans." I do not recall any instance of this, at least in any posts which I
have read. If such were indeed the case, your statement would certainly be
valid and such individuals should be more accurate in their references.

In fine, I ain't agin ye, Tribune! :o) Thank you for your arguments and
valued opinions. We have a very bright and articulate group of people here
-- and a refreshingly diverse group as well. I'm proud and delighted to be
able to learn from all of you.

In unitate Novae Romae Reipublicae, valete omnes,
Acadianus Draco


Subject:	Gender-related Personal Names
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 02:31:42 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

I was practically certain that the idea of citizenship in a particular nation
and a requirement regarding the form of personal names was not just an
"eccentricity" peculiar to Nova Roma. As I thought, it is (or was until at
least 1993) *required* that new citizens of Iceland adopt the Icelandic form
of patronymics. That is, their "last name" is taken from the name of their
father. Moreover, the patronymic in Icelandic denotes unequivocally the
apparent biological gender of the holder: for example, Odin's son, Thor,
would be "Thor Odinsson"; however, his daughter, Ingrid, would be "Ingrid
Odinsdotter." It's a linguistic conspiracy, not a social one.

Valete omnes,
Acadianus Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 02:46:31 EDT

In a message dated 4/24/0 4:59:51 PM, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a> writes:

<< In other
words, if you are male your Roman name must reflect your physical
gender. Just as if you are female your Roman Name must reflect your
physical gender. >>

Will there be investigations of suspected violators of this rule? Who will
conduct these inquiries? What will be done if someone's genitalia doesn't
live up to expectations?

Justinia Cassia
(still in Kansas, sans Toto)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] on gender debate
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 02:55:45 EDT

If a person has lived all their life with their psyche at odds with their
body in terms of gender, where lies reality? Is the gender the person
experiences on the inside (thoughts, feelings, beliefs, personality) reality?
Or is the gender of the outside (body) reality? Consider which can be more
easily altered.

Justinia Cassia

In a message dated 4/24/0 10:16:12 PM, <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a> writes:

<< Avete omnes :
I would like to express that I agree with the Gender Edicta. I
consider it common sense. I think that a person using a name
belonging to the opposite sex is cheating reality. A person has the
right to have whatever feelings, desires,fantaisies,emotions, sexual
orientation etc., and behave in private life accordingly, but, a
sense of reality must be above all considerations. Reality must be
the guide, I think. In my opinion, that edicta doesn't discriminate
anybody. It shows how seriously this issue is taken. As I stated
above, it's common sense.
Salvete omnes >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 01:15:57 -0700

Salve.

At this moment, since we really dont have a bureaucracy to investigate every
citizenship application we take it on Trust. Which is why I passed another
Edicta based on a honesty policy that stipulates punishment if there is
deception.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082116036098035140229088239144044009209130152" >Justini--------si--------..</--------; wrote:

> In a message dated 4/24/0 4:59:51 PM, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a> writes:
>
> << In other
> words, if you are male your Roman name must reflect your physical
> gender. Just as if you are female your Roman Name must reflect your
> physical gender. >>
>
> Will there be investigations of suspected violators of this rule? Who will
> conduct these inquiries? What will be done if someone's genitalia doesn't
> live up to expectations?
>
> Justinia Cassia
> (still in Kansas, sans Toto)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget.
> Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already
> registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/2885/4/_/61050/_/956645198/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/2885/4/_/61050/_/956645198/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] on gender debate
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 01:19:55 -0700

Reality lies in physical appearance, as based on every other macronation in the
world. Just as every other legal document asks for Gender and there are ONLY two
choices. Male and Female. When you are born, there are two sexes you can be.
Male and Female. When you apply for your Drivers License and it asks what Gender
you are, there are only two choices. Male and Female. When you apply for a job,
there are only two choices for Gender. Male and Female. Nova Roma now
consistently and official will follow that same policy.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082116036098035140229088239144044009209130152" >Justini--------si--------..</--------; wrote:

> If a person has lived all their life with their psyche at odds with their
> body in terms of gender, where lies reality? Is the gender the person
> experiences on the inside (thoughts, feelings, beliefs, personality) reality?
> Or is the gender of the outside (body) reality? Consider which can be more
> easily altered.
>
> Justinia Cassia
>
<-------- size=-1 color="#008000">> In a message dated 4/24/0 10:16:12 PM, <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a> writes:
>
> << Avete omnes :
> I would like to express that I agree with the Gender Edicta. I
> consider it common sense. I think that a person using a name
> belonging to the opposite sex is cheating reality. A person has the
> right to have whatever feelings, desires,fantaisies,emotions, sexual
> orientation etc., and behave in private life accordingly, but, a
> sense of reality must be above all considerations. Reality must be
> the guide, I think. In my opinion, that edicta doesn't discriminate
> anybody. It shows how seriously this issue is taken. As I stated
> above, it's common sense.
> Salvete omnes >>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956645752/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956645752/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New CISTA a Declaration from the senior Consul
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 04:26:37 EDT

Salvete Citizens.

Due to the amount of problems that the current cista has caused non microsoft
users, I, Quintus Fabius Maximus, Senior Consul of Nova Roma, declare the
following:

I. Because many of the votes cast are not reaching the rogatores, all votes
cast at the old cista are tainted, and are invalid and are to be destroyed.
This means those who voted at the old cista must vote again at the new one,
to have your vote counted.

II. The new cista is at the URL <a href="http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html" target="_top" >http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html</a>.
This was set up by Marcus Octavius Germanicus who is running unopposed for
one of the Curule Aedile positions. Since he is running unopposed I see no
conflict of interest and therefore authorize the Comitia to vote at this
cista only.

III. Rome thanks Augustina Iulia Caesaria Nocturnia for her efforts and
stepping in on such short notice. I direct her to dismantle her cista,
destroy her records and replace the information on the voting page with the
new cista. I direct the rogatores to do the same with any votes they have
received.

IV. Before any citizen starts to point fingers at anyone here at Nova Roma
this problem came about because of three things, Our Webmaster lost his
computer due to equipment failure, his assistant was locked out from his, due
to the Easter holiday
and when Iulia Caesaria stepped in to take over she did not have the proper
software to complete the modification.
If anything citizens should be cheered on how fast the problem was solved.
The Consuls thank Marcus Octavius Germanicus for his timely assistance,

V. Because of the wasted two days, the election is extended an additional
two days now closing at 6:00 PM PDT on a. d. IV Nonas Maius (May the second).

Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:32:13 EDT

It seems to work perfectly from the voter's side. My congratulations to
M. Octavius Germanicus for his expertise, and to L. Cornelius Sulla and
Q. Fabius Maximus for quick judgement and action.

L. Sergius Australicus

On 4/24/00 10:43 PM Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
>> I just spoke to Q. Fabius on the phone. He has giving me the consent to
>> tell you to Post the LINK to your voting site. Get it up and running
>> immediately and the election has been extended for 48 hours given the
recent
>> difficulties.
>
>Thanks! The new voting tool is at:
>
> <a href="http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html" target="_top" >http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html</a>
>
>(The first page looks identical to the standard Cista page.)
>
>Upon submitting a vote, you'll receive a sequential tracking number
>that will ensure that no votes were lost.
>
>M. Octavius Germanicus

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:	"Jeffrey L. Graham" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045056047121127198187242109140244253188098030046209130" >--------reygraham@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:51:41 +0000

I went to the new voting site. It accepted my ballot with no problem.

Q. Gaufridus Canus

On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:32:13 EDT <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:
> It seems to work perfectly from the voter's side. My congratulations
> to
> M. Octavius Germanicus for his expertise, and to L. Cornelius Sulla
> and
> Q. Fabius Maximus for quick judgement and action.
>
> L. Sergius Australicus
>
> On 4/24/00 10:43 PM Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>)
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> >
> >> I just spoke to Q. Fabius on the phone. He has giving me the
> consent to
> >> tell you to Post the LINK to your voting site. Get it up and
> running
> >> immediately and the election has been extended for 48 hours given
> the
> recent
> >> difficulties.
> >
> >Thanks! The new voting tool is at:
> >
> > <a href="http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html" target="_top" >http://www.konoko.net/novaroma/cista.html</a>
> >
> >(The first page looks identical to the standard Cista page.)
> >
> >Upon submitting a vote, you'll receive a sequential tracking number
>
> >that will ensure that no votes were lost.
> >
> >M. Octavius Germanicus
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956662677/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956662677/</a>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] on gender debate
From:
Date:	25 Apr 2000 05:10:22 -0700

On Mon, 24 April 2000, "Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" wrote:

>
> Avete omnes :
> I would like to express that I agree with the Gender Edicta. I
> consider it common sense. I think that a person using a name
> belonging to the opposite sex is cheating reality. A person has the
> right to have whatever feelings, desires,fantaisies,emotions, sexual
> orientation etc., and behave in private life accordingly,

I must disagree with this statement. An individual has the right to behave in public life (including expressing emotions and/or sexual or affectional orientation accordingly. Otherwise, Nova Roma's expressed non-discrimination is only a sham.

> but, a
> sense of reality must be above all considerations. Reality must be
> the guide, I think.

And philosophers have been debating for centuries whether or not reality is objective or subjective. Is Nova Roma declaring this debate settled, or are you? Not to be too harsh, but in matters relating so closely to an individual's personality as gender-identification, I choose to believe what that individual tells me. I do not trust my own understanding of "reality" on such issues.

>In my opinion, that edicta doesn't discriminate
> anybody. It shows how seriously this issue is taken. As I stated
> above, it's common sense.
> Salvete omnes
>
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

Common sense is remarkably uncommon in these matters.

M. Stellatinus
Laci Magni

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] on gender debate
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:15:53 -0500

Salvete omnes

These will be (I hope) my last public remarks on this particular thread,
since I see no point in going over the same ground again and again. The
only argument supporting the decision of Germanicus, Palladius, and Sulla
to which I can grant legitimacy is the appeal to tradition, which is a
not insignificant matter.

I see no threat to linguistic purity here if someone chooses to live as a
member of a particular gender and chooses to name themselves accordingly.
In Fimbria/Fimbrius' case (since she has posted on it here I guess it's
OK to use it as the example), we were never in doubt about the situation.
If Damianus Lucianus signs himself as "Dexippa" or if I decide to write
"Lucia Sergia" it makes a statement that cannot be as easily made in
modern English as in Latin, but there's nothing "wrong" about making such
a statement.

I might note here that my given name "Ira" is a feminine one in the
culture that originated it and in all modern cultures that use it except
this one. That gave my Russian professor such fits that he changed my
name to "Iuri" for the purposes of his class!

As to the question of honesty, I find honesty to be a sufficiently
important matter that I find it personally very offensive that someone
would try to raise it as a problem in this context. There is no question
of dishonesty. Fimbria was not trying to fool or defraud anyone but just
trying to live here consistent with who she feels herself to be.

I see no difference between that and the group of us trying to live
consistent with our sense of "Romanitas."

I thank all here for the civility of this discussion, which is a welcome
difference from the tone presented by some in an earlier debate on this
topic.

Finis.

Lucius Sergius Australicus


Subject:	Voted
From:	Donald and Crystal Meaker <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:40:28 -0700

Salvete,

My husband and I have voted. We were recorded as votes 058 and 059. We
would like to thank Marcus Octavius Germanicus for making it possible.
We did not have Outlook Express. We do not LIKE Outlook Express and we
found ourselves forced to either post what our choices in voting would
have been for all to see OR not voting at all. Neither is acceptable.

I would encourage whoever is in charge of such things to adopt this
wonderful system created by Marcus Octavius Germanicus and maybe even
give him at least a paragraph in the history books!! Anybody have an
award on em? <G>

Of course it only allowed me to vote once <G>. Most of you know how I
feel about THAT <VBG>.

Pax vobiscum,
Amethystia Iunia Crystallina Materna
Gaius Iunius Placidus


Subject:	Mike Marconi
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:59:31 -0700

Salvete, Quirites.

He was bounced from Nova Roma by acclamation of the Senate.
The College of Pontiffs also voted for his expulsion.
The People in the Forum (the list) spoke their desire that he be gone.

He left. He is back. I believe he got back in because he used
another
name, and "Mike Marconi" is not that unique a name. How could our
overworked, conscientious Censor know this one was "That One"
until it identified itself. Now we seem to have that identification.
Should not his citizenship not be revoked as having been erroneously
granted?

Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.


Subject:	Voting A-OK
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 06:04:46 -0700

It seemed to go as smoothly as ... something.
[it is early and work looms]

My thanks to any and all who rectified the situation.

C. Aelius Ericius.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] on gender debate
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:52:23 EDT

In a m--------g--------t--------/25/0 3:23:17 AM, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< When you are born, there are two sexes you can be.
Male and Female. >>

This is not exactly true. There are a number of chromosomal combinations,
including XXY. Sometimes parents must choose gender for children born with
hermaphroditic features. They must make a black-or-white choice because this
is what mainstream society dictates. In Nova Roma, we have more of a say in
terms of how we wish our society to be. I would .like to advocate for
thinking outside of the box on this issue.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the rights and
responsibilities of citizenship are the same for males and females. If so,
what difference does gender really make in this circumstance? I fear this
rule will be perceived as going against the spirit of Nova Roma's
non-discrimination policy, and will repel some citizens or potential citizens.

Justinia Cassia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voted
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:02:21 -0500 (CDT)

> I would encourage whoever is in charge of such things to adopt this
> wonderful system created by Marcus Octavius Germanicus and maybe even
> give him at least a paragraph in the history books!! Anybody have an
> award on em? <G>

Thanks, but this was just a small thing... it took a half hour to set
up. There's a lot of other things I'd like to do with the Nova Roma
web site through the next few months that will be much more interesting.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile (candidate)

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Cista
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:09:54 EDT

Salvete,

Thanks for fixing the voting system!

Ac.Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:	"Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:28:45 -0700

Salvete omnes

Having just got back from a festival with a wicked cold and finding nearly
400 messages in my inbox, I've been wading through the traffic.

My comments on the Gender Edict:

It is common in many jurisdictions to require a potential candidate for
sex-reassignment surgery to live as a member of the "target" gender for a
period of months -- usually not less than six months and not more than a
year. This generally includes a change of name, precisely as a measure of
the candidate's seriousness.

If it were me, for example, I would change my name from Douglas Barr to,
say, Elizabeth Barr, live as a female for the required period -- presenting
as female with a female name, but still legally male -- until my surgery, at
which time I would become legally female with a female name.

I wonder if the Censor(s) would accept a formal notification of intent to
undergo sex-reassignment surgery as a valid pretext for assuming a name
opposite in gender to the citizen's current biological gender? In which
case, if there were strong feelings about "frivolous" name changes, one
could also require that a name change be made only so often, not more than
once a year for example. The Censor(s) could also require that proof of
surgery be furnished within a certain period.

Many people are uncomfortable with the topic of transsexualism, which can be
a very complex issue. It is enough to say that "impersonation" is not why
people change their gender -- the social, physical, familial, cultural, etc.
ramifications are too great. Too, Nova Roma has intrinsically set itself up
for tension between the traditional and the modern: women did not have the
same rights as men in Antiqua Roma -- whether they had a larger influence
behind the scenes than has been thought is interesting, but not ultimately
relevant, they were not legally equal with men. In Nova Roma, however, they
are explicitly stated to be legally equal with men: this is going to set up
some tension and conflict.

I would hope that whatever the Censores choose to do, that the impression of
exclusion or discrimination is not conveyed to potential citizens; that
would rob us of the numbers, and talent, that we need -- precisely as we
could have lost the talent of various magistri whose personal religious path
is not that of the religio Romana, if the debate concerning Christian Nova
Romans had not been resolved as it was.

Valete
G. Albius Gadelicus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	"susan brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061158091009093031223225065148243223136058139046209" >scriba_forum@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:11:09 GMT

Salve Tacitus:

You are entitled to your point of view....but I'm afraid you "hit a nerve"

On "the special needs of so few" ......because individuals are lacking in
numbers doesn't make their needs and struggles less important...Gender
Identity Issue is only one example of "just a few" with special needs.

As a Registered Nurse, I find myself a little torn here by your
trivializations; I have cared for many different people with varying
bio/psycho/social/sexual needs, and have acted as an advocate for them to
help them obtain the necessary services, treatments (if needed), supports,
etc. This has left me with some empathy for "the special needs of so few"
Real people, real struggles, real issues. Nice folks, and productive
members in their community.

I have an autistic son....talk about just a few....in his particular
circumstance he is one in 10,000!!! I have had to claw my way throughout
the past 10 years in getting the necessary services for him, because he is
part of the "special needs of so few".

And, because Autism entails a varying degree of social and perceptual
problems, it is not inconceivable that he will perhaps one day struggle with
identity issues, among other things.

It sounds like everything is pretty much "normal" for you. Otherwise, you
wouldn't be so quick to wisk peoples' problems under a mat.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

>From: Micha--------arconi <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
>Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:46:41 -0400
>
>Sulla is right! Let the issue die! If someone is not sure weather they are
>a man
>or woman then they need professional help. I believe that Sulla's decision
>was
>the best one available! It is for the good of Nova Roma--as a whole, not
>bending
>to the special needs of so few.
>
>Tacitus
>
>
>
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 4/24/00 4:20:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:
> >
> > << Reading ancient law; while having "affiliations" with the same sex
>was
> > perfectly acceptable in Roman society, impersonating the opposite sex
>was
> > punishable by death. But not for the reasons you may think.. It was
>viewed
> > that a woman would only dress as a man in a coup of sorts to gain
>political
> > power and that a man would only dress as a woman to avoid the law.
> > >>
> >
> > Ok...but for those of us still confused on the issue....this is NOVA
>Roma.
> > THIS IS NOT ANCIENT ROME! If it was, women would not be able to hold
> > positions in the government and would still be viewed as property. And
>we'd
> > have slaves...lots of them!
> >
> > In our modern world, there are people who despite the physical
> > characteristics, identify with the opposite gender. And if they want to
>call
> > themselves by a gender-identified name, then they should have the right
>to do
> > so...in Nova Roma or outside of it!
> >
> > --Dexippus / Dexippa
> > The Flaming Queen of the Capitoline Hill
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
> > <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956608894/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956608894/</a>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:	"Donald and Crystal Meaker" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:10:31 -0000

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, "Doug Barr" dhkbarr@i... wrote:

> I wonder if the Censor(s) would accept a formal notification of
intent to
> undergo sex-reassignment surgery as a valid pretext for assuming a
name
> opposite in gender to the citizen's current biological gender? In
which
> case, if there were strong feelings about "frivolous" name changes,
one
> could also require that a name change be made only so often, not
more than
> once a year for example. The Censor(s) could also require that
proof of
> surgery be furnished within a certain period.
>

I *think* that is their intent. The problem being that "proof" can
be so obscure in this little micronation of ours. Few within Nova
Roma have anything more than my word that I am a 31 year-old black
female, married with a husband and 2 children. Few can REALLY say
that I am not some psycho infiltrating NR with 2 email addresses.
But people have talked to me on the phone (with Don on an extention)
and a couple have met the whole family in person. That seems to be
proof enough <G>.

> Many people are uncomfortable with the topic of transsexualism,
which can be
> a very complex issue. It is enough to say that "impersonation" is
not why
> people change their gender -- the social, physical, familial,
cultural, etc.
> ramifications are too great. Too, Nova Roma has intrinsically set
itself up
> for tension between the traditional and the modern: women did not
have the
> same rights as men in Antiqua Roma -- whether they had a larger
influence
> behind the scenes than has been thought is interesting, but not
ultimately
> relevant, they were not legally equal with men. In Nova Roma,
however, they
> are explicitly stated to be legally equal with men: this is going
to set up
> some tension and conflict.
>

That women did NOT have to be constrained by the "legal" is, IMO
proof that they probably had MORE power than their men. *I* know who
is in charge of this household. I also know who holds the purse
strings. Which of us has more power? In todays legal system -- *I*
do! Should I wish I can get the government behind me and take my
husband to the cleaners. Get the money, get the house, get the car!

There are a million ways around the law, now as well as then.

> I would hope that whatever the Censores choose to do, that the
impression of
> exclusion or discrimination is not conveyed to potential citizens;
that
> would rob us of the numbers, and talent, that we need -- precisely
as we
> could have lost the talent of various magistri whose personal
religious path
> is not that of the religio Romana, if the debate concerning
Christian Nova
> Romans had not been resolved as it was.
>
> Valete
> G. Albius Gadelicus

These are different times we live in. PCBS has corrupted the
integrity of many people. I can live with this edict. Should I
decide that I need to become a man, I will contact my doctor and
shrink (as both are required I do believe) and then when I am ready
for my "probation" period as a man, I will inform Nova Roma. I would
expect them to expect me to go through it and THEN change my name.
There was a show Jerry Springer did years ago about this (I believe
originally) woman who went through not one, but SEVERAL sex change
operations, taking his family through the wringer with him. Went
from Mom to Dad to Mom to Dad to Mom to Dad to Mom to Dad and was on
the show to announce his intention to go back to being Mom. An
extreme case, no doubt, BUT I think it explains why one must go
through so much to become what they feel the most comfortable with.

Changing sexes is NOT like changing socks (or in this world, email
addresses -- I know, I have had many email addresses in my life
within Nova Roma).

Pax vobiscum,
Crys


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:26:56 -0500 (CDT)

Gee-- next thing people here are going to say that we can't even
enter our pets as citizens. If not dogs or cats how about at least a
guinnea pig with a Roman nose?--lol

Gaius Drusus Domitianus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:37:45 -0400

I am sorry that you have a misfortunate child. Truly I am! But my should a
society as a whole be placed within restrictive limits so as to
please the few. We should help those that are in need, but let us not get strung
out on a limb in the process. Why severe the arm in order to save a finger --
unless it is REALLY needed.

Good Luck
Tacitus

susan brett wrote:

> Salve Tacitus:
>
> You are entitled to your point of view....but I'm afraid you "hit a nerve"
>
> On "the special needs of so few" ......because individuals are lacking in
> numbers doesn't make their needs and struggles less important...Gender
> Identity Issue is only one example of "just a few" with special needs.
>
> As a Registered Nurse, I find myself a little torn here by your
> trivializations; I have cared for many different people with varying
> bio/psycho/social/sexual needs, and have acted as an advocate for them to
> help them obtain the necessary services, treatments (if needed), supports,
> etc. This has left me with some empathy for "the special needs of so few"
> Real people, real struggles, real issues. Nice folks, and productive
> members in their community.
>
> I have an autistic son....talk about just a few....in his particular
> circumstance he is one in 10,000!!! I have had to claw my way throughout
> the past 10 years in getting the necessary services for him, because he is
> part of the "special needs of so few".
>
> And, because Autism entails a varying degree of social and perceptual
> problems, it is not inconceivable that he will perhaps one day struggle with
> identity issues, among other things.
>
> It sounds like everything is pretty much "normal" for you. Otherwise, you
> wouldn't be so quick to wisk peoples' problems under a mat.
>
> Vale,
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
>
> >From: Micha--------arconi <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a>
> >Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> >To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
> >Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:46:41 -0400
> >
> >Sulla is right! Let the issue die! If someone is not sure weather they are
> >a man
> >or woman then they need professional help. I believe that Sulla's decision
> >was
> >the best one available! It is for the good of Nova Roma--as a whole, not
> >bending
> >to the special needs of so few.
> >
> >Tacitus
> >
> >
> >
> ><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> >
> > > In a message dated 4/24/00 4:20:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:
> > >
> > > << Reading ancient law; while having "affiliations" with the same sex
> >was
> > > perfectly acceptable in Roman society, impersonating the opposite sex
> >was
> > > punishable by death. But not for the reasons you may think.. It was
> >viewed
> > > that a woman would only dress as a man in a coup of sorts to gain
> >political
> > > power and that a man would only dress as a woman to avoid the law.
> > > >>
> > >
> > > Ok...but for those of us still confused on the issue....this is NOVA
> >Roma.
> > > THIS IS NOT ANCIENT ROME! If it was, women would not be able to hold
> > > positions in the government and would still be viewed as property. And
> >we'd
> > > have slaves...lots of them!
> > >
> > > In our modern world, there are people who despite the physical
> > > characteristics, identify with the opposite gender. And if they want to
> >call
> > > themselves by a gender-identified name, then they should have the right
> >to do
> > > so...in Nova Roma or outside of it!
> > >
> > > --Dexippus / Dexippa
> > > The Flaming Queen of the Capitoline Hill
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
> > > <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956608894/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956608894/</a>
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from
> Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956682670/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956682670/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:33:56 EDT

In a message dated 4/24/00 10:09:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< NO!
I am not changing the configuration of my computer to Outlook Express. >>
You can change them back after you vote using the same instructions.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:36:56 EDT

In a message dated 4/24/00 10:25:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=210166080237038233015038190036129" >iadams@--------</a> writ--------br>
<>
According to several other Nova Romans "Netscape Mail" works in the same
manner as Microsoft Mail.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voted
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:49:58 EDT

Salvete,

<< My husband and I have voted. We were recorded as votes 058 and 059 >>

My vote was recorded as 067!

Vale

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:15:44 -0700

Salve...that issue has been resolved with the new Cista. :)

SF

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; wrote:

> In a message dated 4/24/00 10:09:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
> << NO!
> I am not changing the configuration of my computer to Outlook Express. >>
> You can change them back after you vote using the same instructions.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eLerts
> It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3080/4/_/61050/_/956687645/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3080/4/_/61050/_/956687645/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voted
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:17:15 -0700

mine is 42. :)

Sulla Felix

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; wrote:

> Salvete,
>
>
> << My husband and I have voted. We were recorded as votes 058 and 059 >>
>
> My vote was recorded as 067!
>
> Vale
>
> Iulius Titinius Antonius
>
> Faber est suae quisque fortunae.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956688609/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956688609/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voted
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:26:51 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> mine is 42. :)

Sulla Felix was first! anything before 42 was a test, and was deleted.

Octavius

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CISTA ERROR
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:30:01 EDT

In a message dated 4/25/00 3:24:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< Salve...that issue has been resolved with the new Cista. :)

SF >>
I really need to read all the emails before I start responding to them, and
not just reading a single email, responding to it if I want to, and then
going onto the next.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] E-mail responses
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:36:06 EDT

In a message dated 4/25/2000 12:30:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:

<< really need to read all the emails before I start responding to them, and
not just reading a single email, responding to it if I want to, and then
going onto the next.
>>
Salvete!
This is a very good idea. I read all my e-mails first then respond. This
allows you to check and see if your question has been answered, or if someone
has a similar POV and saves you the time of writing out a long letter.
Valete!
Q. Fabius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] E-mail responses
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:39:06 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061044104089235135169082190036" >sfp55@--------</--------; wrote:

> This is a very good idea. I read all my e-mails first then respond. This
> allows you to check and see if your question has been answered, or if someone
> has a similar POV and saves you the time of writing out a long letter.

... or that the gender debate has gone on long enough and I'd rather
not be involved! :)

Octavius

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:51:24 EDT

Well said Pompeia!

Drusus Cornelius Claudius

In a message dated 4/25/00 9:12:25 AM PST, <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061158091009093031223225065148243223136058139046209" >scriba_forum@--------</a> writes:

<< Salve Tacitus:

You are entitled to your point of view....but I'm afraid you "hit a nerve"

On "the special needs of so few" ......because individuals are lacking in
numbers doesn't make their needs and struggles less important...Gender
Identity Issue is only one example of "just a few" with special needs.

As a Registered Nurse, I find myself a little torn here by your
trivializations; I have cared for many different people with varying
bio/psycho/social/sexual needs, and have acted as an advocate for them to
help them obtain the necessary services, treatments (if needed), supports,
etc. This has left me with some empathy for "the special needs of so few"
Real people, real struggles, real issues. Nice folks, and productive
members in their community.

I have an autistic son....talk about just a few....in his particular
circumstance he is one in 10,000!!! I have had to claw my way throughout
the past 10 years in getting the necessary services for him, because he is
part of the "special needs of so few".

And, because Autism entails a varying degree of social and perceptual
problems, it is not inconceivable that he will perhaps one day struggle with
identity issues, among other things.

It sounds like everything is pretty much "normal" for you. Otherwise, you
wouldn't be so quick to wisk peoples' problems under a mat.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
>>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	"susan brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061158091009093031223225065148243223136058139046209" >scriba_forum@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:42:53 GMT

Salve again Tacitus:

My purpose in writing you was not to elicit sympathy about having a special
needs son. If that is what you gleened from my letter, I have poorly
delivered my point.

My purpose is writing was to provide you with some enlightenment into the
"Special Needs of So Few" you were referring to in your post. The other
components of my original letter expand on this.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia

>From: MDM <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:37:45 -0400
>
>I am sorry that you have a misfortunate child. Truly I am! But my should a
>society as a whole be placed within restrictive limits so as to
>please the few. We should help those that are in need, but let us not get
>strung
>out on a limb in the process. Why severe the arm in order to save a finger
>--
>unless it is REALLY needed.
>
>Good Luck
>Tacitus
>
>susan brett wrote:
>
> > Salve Tacitus:
> >
> > You are entitled to your point of view....but I'm afraid you "hit a
>nerve"
> >
> > On "the special needs of so few" ......because individuals are lacking
>in
> > numbers doesn't make their needs and struggles less important...Gender
> > Identity Issue is only one example of "just a few" with special needs.
> >
> > As a Registered Nurse, I find myself a little torn here by your
> > trivializations; I have cared for many different people with varying
> > bio/psycho/social/sexual needs, and have acted as an advocate for them
>to
> > help them obtain the necessary services, treatments (if needed),
>supports,
> > etc. This has left me with some empathy for "the special needs of so
>few"
> > Real people, real struggles, real issues. Nice folks, and productive
> > members in their community.
> >
> > I have an autistic son....talk about just a few....in his particular
> > circumstance he is one in 10,000!!! I have had to claw my way
>throughout
> > the past 10 years in getting the necessary services for him, because he
>is
> > part of the "special needs of so few".
> >
> > And, because Autism entails a varying degree of social and perceptual
> > problems, it is not inconceivable that he will perhaps one day struggle
>with
> > identity issues, among other things.
> >
> > It sounds like everything is pretty much "normal" for you. Otherwise,
>you
> > wouldn't be so quick to wisk peoples' problems under a mat.
> >
> > Vale,
> > Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
> >
> > >From: Micha--------arconi <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a>
> > >Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> > >To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
> > >Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:46:41 -0400
> > >
> > >Sulla is right! Let the issue die! If someone is not sure weather they
>are
> > >a man
> > >or woman then they need professional help. I believe that Sulla's
>decision
> > >was
> > >the best one available! It is for the good of Nova Roma--as a whole,
>not
> > >bending
> > >to the special needs of so few.
> > >
> > >Tacitus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:
> > >
> > > > In a message dated 4/24/00 4:20:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > > <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:
> > > >
> > > > << Reading ancient law; while having "affiliations" with the same
>sex
> > >was
> > > > perfectly acceptable in Roman society, impersonating the opposite
>sex
> > >was
> > > > punishable by death. But not for the reasons you may think.. It
>was
> > >viewed
> > > > that a woman would only dress as a man in a coup of sorts to gain
> > >political
> > > > power and that a man would only dress as a woman to avoid the law.
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Ok...but for those of us still confused on the issue....this is NOVA
> > >Roma.
> > > > THIS IS NOT ANCIENT ROME! If it was, women would not be able to
>hold
> > > > positions in the government and would still be viewed as property.
>And
> > >we'd
> > > > have slaves...lots of them!
> > > >
> > > > In our modern world, there are people who despite the physical
> > > > characteristics, identify with the opposite gender. And if they
>want to
> > >call
> > > > themselves by a gender-identified name, then they should have the
>right
> > >to do
> > > > so...in Nova Roma or outside of it!
> > > >
> > > > --Dexippus / Dexippa
> > > > The Flaming Queen of the Capitoline Hill
> > > >
> > > >
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
> > > > <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956608894/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956608894/</a>
> > > >
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from
> > Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!
> > <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956682670/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3010/4/_/61050/_/956682670/</a>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] From Christopher Paterna
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:07:40 EDT

Crys,

Please understand I'm not attacking you...

But because you are certain of your gender (regardless of "no lump"), doesn't
mean others are also.

And with 77 e-mails to go through, I'm cutting to the chase...

In an online forum where most people choose names based on historical
figures, how is choosing a name opposite one's physical gender any more role
playing than these?

Most trans-gendered people can't afford to go under the knife (so to speak)
so they are made to live their life physically as one gender but as the
opposite gender in all other cases.

Regardless of what our national birth certificates say, some people don't
identify with that gender.

Now, this may be a rare occassion for NR...but why put ourselves out there as
not welcoming of this branch of diversity. It hurts us. It makes us look
like hypocrites.

Someone suggested that any trans-gendered people within NR can use a
nick-name instead of their citizenship name. That may work and may be a well
and good compromise. But why state up front "your citizenship name has to
match your gender!". It is draconian.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] on gender debate
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:09:51 EDT

I would like to point out that those outside NR may say the same thing about
all of us....

"Reinventing Ancient Rome? Hello! Get Real!"

Who died and made you a God?

--Dex

In a message dated 4/24/00 11:16:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a> writes:

<< I would like to express that I agree with the Gender Edicta. I
consider it common sense. I think that a person using a name
belonging to the opposite sex is cheating reality. A person has the
right to have whatever feelings, desires,fantaisies,emotions, sexual
orientation etc., and behave in private life accordingly, but, a
sense of reality must be above all considerations. Reality must be
the guide, I think. In my opinion, that edicta doesn't discriminate
anybody. It shows how seriously this issue is taken. As I stated
above, it's common sense. >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] on gender debate
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:18:37 EDT

I wholeheartedly agree with Lucius Sergius Australicus' remarks on this
subject and I stand by the notion that this Edict is discriminatory and
unnecessary from any legal, social, or cultural standpoint.

I am utterly dissapointed in an organization from which I have been with
since it's meager origins.

Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma

In a message dated 4/25/00 8:33:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=210166080237038233015038190036129" >iadams@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< Salvete omnes

These will be (I hope) my last public remarks on this particular thread,
since I see no point in going over the same ground again and again. The
only argument supporting the decision of Germanicus, Palladius, and Sulla
to which I can grant legitimacy is the appeal to tradition, which is a
not insignificant matter.

I see no threat to linguistic purity here if someone chooses to live as a
member of a particular gender and chooses to name themselves accordingly.
In Fimbria/Fimbrius' case (since she has posted on it here I guess it's
OK to use it as the example), we were never in doubt about the situation.
If Damianus Lucianus signs himself as "Dexippa" or if I decide to write
"Lucia Sergia" it makes a statement that cannot be as easily made in
modern English as in Latin, but there's nothing "wrong" about making such
a statement.

I might note here that my given name "Ira" is a feminine one in the
culture that originated it and in all modern cultures that use it except
this one. That gave my Russian professor such fits that he changed my
name to "Iuri" for the purposes of his class!

As to the question of honesty, I find honesty to be a sufficiently
important matter that I find it personally very offensive that someone
would try to raise it as a problem in this context. There is no question
of dishonesty. Fimbria was not trying to fool or defraud anyone but just
trying to live here consistent with who she feels herself to be.

I see no difference between that and the group of us trying to live
consistent with our sense of "Romanitas."

I thank all here for the civility of this discussion, which is a welcome
difference from the tone presented by some in an earlier debate on this
topic.

Finis.

Lucius Sergius Australicus >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Mike Marconi
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:20:13 EDT

I agree here. I once again call for the expulsion of Michael Marconi based
on past transgressions and "falsification" of new membership!

Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Paterfamilias, Gens Luciania
Augur, Nova Roma

In a message dated 4/25/00 9:00:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<<
He was bounced from Nova Roma by acclamation of the Senate.
The College of Pontiffs also voted for his expulsion.
The People in the Forum (the list) spoke their desire that he be gone.

He left. He is back. I believe he got back in because he used
another
name, and "Mike Marconi" is not that unique a name. How could our
overworked, conscientious Censor know this one was "That One"
until it identified itself. Now we seem to have that identification.
Should not his citizenship not be revoked as having been erroneously
granted? >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:24:02 EDT

In a message dated 4/25/00 12:50:45 PM Eastern Dayl-------- T-------- <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
writes:

<< The Censor(s) could also require that proof of
surgery be furnished within a certain period. >>

I disagree with you on this point only since we do not currently ask for
proof of gender from any citizen. Why ask for proof of a sex-change?

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:26:19 EDT

In a message dated 4/25/00 2:30:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< But my should a
society as a whole be placed within restrictive limits so as to
please the few. >>

What is restrictive? That you look past the physical?

--Dex


Subject:	Gender: Censorial Edicta
From:	"Robert Williamson" <a href="/post/no--------ma?protectID=194233250056127134015037190036129" >robert@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:27:06 -0400

Salvet=E9 Omn=E9s: I have to say that I support Sulla and the others in the=
Censorial Edicta under question. People can call this discrimination if th=
ey wish. But that doesn't mean that it really is discrimination. There are =
those who are always giving things or decisions labels just because they do=
n't like it. That in itself is a form of discrimination. The fact is every =
time we make a choice on anything, we are discriminating. I belong to a few=
different organizations. They all have rules and laws. I may not like some=
of these rules and laws. I have five choices. I can live with the rules an=
d laws even if I don't like them. I can run for office in order to try and =
get into a position where I can change them. I can try to understand why th=
ese rules and laws are necessary to help in the proper and orderly funtioni=
ng of the organisation or society. I can quit the organisation if I don't l=
ike how it's run and form my own, or try to find one more to my liking. Or =
I can feel hurt to the point of trying to undermine the organisation from w=
ithin in an attempt to bring about it's destruction. My children don't like=
some of our household rules. They have some interesting names that they ha=
ve labeled these rules with. In conclusion, I support Sulla. ... Appius Mar=
cellus Cato

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender: Censorial Edicta
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:16:17 EDT

You also have a sixth choice. You can write letters or emails to your
Representatives and local newspaper (or newsletter, if it is an
organization), and discuss various aspects of the issue with fellow citizens,
which is what I believe is going on here. This also fits with your third
choice, to try to understand. I have carefully read these emails trying to
understand how this edict does or does not benefit Nova Roma. The major
benefit seems to be greater ease in confirming official names on legal
documents. However, I believe the drawbacks of the edict (offending some
people, giving the impression that transgendered people are not welcome in
Nova Roma, and the intrusion of gov't into a private matter) far outweigh the
advantages.

Justinia Cassia

In a message dated 4/25/0 5:35:30 PM, <a href="/post/no--------ma?protectID=194233250056127134015037190036129" >robert@--------</a> writes:

<< I have five choices. I can live with the rules and laws even if I don't
like them. I can run for office in order to try and get into a position where
I can change them. I can try to understand why these rules and laws are
necessary to help in the proper and orderly funtioning of the organisation or
society. I can quit the organisation if I don't like how it's run and form my
own, or try to find one more to my liking. Or I can feel hurt to the point of
trying to undermine the organisation from within in an attempt to bring about
it's destruction. >>


Subject:	On the "Gender Debate"
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:44:13 EDT

Salve all,

After much thought, I have decided to set down my views on this issue.
This is difficult for me, because I am on friendly terms with people on both
sides of this debate, and in taking a side, I hope to remain so with those
who will disagree.

I value Fimbria as a friend. I genuinly like this person. When I first
became aware of Fimbria's desire to change his/her name, I was under the
false impression that this problem was caused by a typo on the application.
I could not understand why such a mistake could not quicly be corrected.

Not long after, I did learn that I was mistaken, and that Fimbria is
female. This put me in a somewhat uncomfortable position, for it is
difficult for me to address a woman with a masculine name. I now call her
Fimbria, as opposed to Marius. But as Fimbria has resigned citizenship, the
issue must be considered moot in this particular case.

Is this edicta just? I have to conclude that it is.

Much has been made about the "rights" people should have in determining
their gender identifications. I say in reply that no such "right" exists.
Facts are facts. Things are as they are, independently of whether or not we
like it or wish to alter the situation. Suppose for a moment that the nerves
in my arm were all severed in an accident and that I had no feeling in my
arm. If I got too close to a flame, I may not feel like I am burning. I may
not "identify" myself with the flame. But the fact would remain that I am
burning. A woman who wishes to be or thinks herself to be a man is still a
woman, period.

Now some will disagree that this is an objective fact. M. Stellatinus
writes, "An individual has the right to behave in public life (including
expressing emotions and/or sexual or affectional orientation accordingly".
Then, Stellatinus adds, "philosophers have been debating for centuries
whether or not reality is objective or subjective. Is Nova Roma declaring
this debate settled, or are you? Not to be too harsh, but in matters
relating so closely to an individual's personality as gender-identification,
I choose to believe what that individual tells me. I do not trust my own
understanding of "reality" on such issues."

A careful and thoughtful reader will see the contradiction here. If we are
to doubt objective reality, how on earth can Stellatinus declare so
matter-of-factly that individuals have any rights at all? Sounds like a very
objective statement to me! Stellatinus may choose to accept what an
individual may say about his or her self as true...but we are under no such
obligation, and Stellatinus, having cut off the epistemological limb on which
he sits, has no grounds to say that we are wrong if we do not do as he does.
He also has no grounds to declare the edicta is unjust. To do so requires an
objective standard of "just" and "unjust", which Stellatinus seems to doubt
is possible. Stellatinus has made it impossible for himself to justify why
the edict is wrong, or why we should agree with him that it is wrong.

Then there are those who assert that because a person "feels like" or
wishes to be of the opposite gender, Nova Roma must respect this and accept
them as such in the name of "diversity" or "tolerance" {how I hate those
over-used and abused words!} These people are actually demanding that Nova
Roma, and it's citizens lie to themselves. They demand we call an apple a
potato, merely because the apple wishes to be a potato. So why should we
stop at gender identification? There are people in this world who believe
themselves to be werewolves, Jesus Christ, King Henry the 8th.....and some
probably believe themselves to be poached eggs. Are we to acknowledge these
self-descriptions as true just because the poor folks who suffer from these
delusions say they are true? Only if we accept this politically correct
balderdash masquerading as "tolerance".

Nova Roma, as a society with pretensions to be more than a mere role-playing
club, has required that information on citizenship forms be correct, and that
chosen names be consistent with the applicant's actual gender. No one is
saying that a person cannot believe whatever they wish about themselves. No
one is saying that a man cannot sign a post or email with a feminine name.
There are no "rights" being violated by this edict.
The ones who would violate any rights at all are those who demand we deny
reality. The only real right being attacked is the right of the state to know
the truth.

The edicta is fair and just.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	do the words Microsoft delenda est mean anything to you?
From:	w--------am wheeler <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:51:02 -0700

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:33:56 EDT
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------;
Subject: Re: CISTA ERROR

In a message dated 4/24/00 10:09:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=194166216056078116169218163036129208" >raz--------@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< NO!
I am not changing the configuration of my computer to Outlook Express.
>>
You can change them back after you vote using the same instructions.

NO we who do not have Outlook Express on our systems ( i have 3 amigas 4
unix boxs and 2 Smalltalk systems and this Thing)
Should not have to go OUT of our way to vote OUTLOOKEXPRESS is BAD
software it needs fixing
again does the words Microsoft delenda est mean anything to you?


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voted
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:47:48 -0000

Avete omnes.
As a civis novus, I'm glad for voting for the very first time. My
number is above that number.
Curate ut valeatis et bona fortuna
L. Pompeius Octavianus

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, Marcus Octavius Germanicus haase@c...
wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> > mine is 42. :)
>
> Sulla Felix was first! anything before 42 was a test, and was
deleted.
>
> Octavius
>
> --
> Matt Hu--------(hu----------------) |
> konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
> Graveyards of Chicago: |
> <a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender: Censorial Edicta
From:	"Robert Williamson" <a href="/post/no--------ma?protectID=194233250056127134015037190036129" >robert@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:48:19 -0400

Salv�: I agree with your sixth choice. But in any society or other
organisation the fact is the will always be some minority of people who will
be offended by some laws. In this life there is no possible way of pleasing
everyone. How could this ever be accomplished? It's impossible. So we must
be mature, wise enough to learn to live with the fact that all of us must
live with certain restrictions, laws, that we as individuals might not find
to our liking. We might have laws that you like and I find offensive. Should
you be forced to accept offensive laws in order to satisfy me? Should I be
forced to accept what I consider to be offensive laws to satisfy you? I say
"NO" to both scenarios. We must all learn to accept some laws that we like
and agree to, and also learn to accept some laws that we may find offensive.
The way to try to change laws is, as you say, with gentle persuasion, and at
the voting booth. If it doesn't go our way, we should be mature enough to
admit defeat and get on with life until the next election time rolls around.
But some people will always find things that offend them in this life. I
find many things offensive, but I have to many other things that I am
interested in to dwell on them. I have learned not to let them bother me, as
there is so much more in life that I enjoy. Pax!
Val�: ... Appius Marcellus Cato
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082116036098035140229088239144044009209130152" >Justini--------si--------..</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gender: Censorial Edicta

> You also have a sixth choice. You can write letters or emails to your
> Representatives and local newspaper (or newsletter, if it is an
> organization), and discuss various aspects of the issue with fellow
citizens,
> which is what I believe is going on here. This also fits with your third
> choice, to try to understand. I have carefully read these emails trying
to
> understand how this edict does or does not benefit Nova Roma. The major
> benefit seems to be greater ease in confirming official names on legal
> documents. However, I believe the drawbacks of the edict (offending some
> people, giving the impression that transgendered people are not welcome in
> Nova Roma, and the intrusion of gov't into a private matter) far outweigh
the
> advantages.
>
> Justinia Cassia
>
> In a message dated 4/25/0 5:35:30 PM, <a href="/post/no--------ma?protectID=194233250056127134015037190036129" >robert@--------</a> writes:
>
> < like them. I can run for office in order to try and get into a position
where
> I can change them. I can try to understand why these rules and laws are
> necessary to help in the proper and orderly funtioning of the organisation
or
> society. I can quit the organisation if I don't like how it's run and form
my
> own, or try to find one more to my liking. Or I can feel hurt to the point
of
> trying to undermine the organisation from within in an attempt to bring
about
> it's destruction. >>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Now the best and coolest websites come right to you based on your
> unique interests. eTour.com is surfing without searching.
> And, it's FREE!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3013/4/_/61050/_/956704586/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3013/4/_/61050/_/956704586/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the "Gender Debate"
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:01:33 -0400

BRAVO! Well done! A voice of reason!

Tacitus

<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> wrote:

> Salve all,
>
> After much thought, I have decided to set down my views on this issue.
> This is difficult for me, because I am on friendly terms with people on both
> sides of this debate, and in taking a side, I hope to remain so with those
> who will disagree.
>
> I value Fimbria as a friend. I genuinly like this person. When I first
> became aware of Fimbria's desire to change his/her name, I was under the
> false impression that this problem was caused by a typo on the application.
> I could not understand why such a mistake could not quicly be corrected.
>
> Not long after, I did learn that I was mistaken, and that Fimbria is
> female. This put me in a somewhat uncomfortable position, for it is
> difficult for me to address a woman with a masculine name. I now call her
> Fimbria, as opposed to Marius. But as Fimbria has resigned citizenship, the
> issue must be considered moot in this particular case.
>
> Is this edicta just? I have to conclude that it is.
>
> Much has been made about the "rights" people should have in determining
> their gender identifications. I say in reply that no such "right" exists.
> Facts are facts. Things are as they are, independently of whether or not we
> like it or wish to alter the situation. Suppose for a moment that the nerves
> in my arm were all severed in an accident and that I had no feeling in my
> arm. If I got too close to a flame, I may not feel like I am burning. I may
> not "identify" myself with the flame. But the fact would remain that I am
> burning. A woman who wishes to be or thinks herself to be a man is still a
> woman, period.
>
> Now some will disagree that this is an objective fact. M. Stellatinus
> writes, "An individual has the right to behave in public life (including
> expressing emotions and/or sexual or affectional orientation accordingly".
> Then, Stellatinus adds, "philosophers have been debating for centuries
> whether or not reality is objective or subjective. Is Nova Roma declaring
> this debate settled, or are you? Not to be too harsh, but in matters
> relating so closely to an individual's personality as gender-identification,
> I choose to believe what that individual tells me. I do not trust my own
> understanding of "reality" on such issues."
>
> A careful and thoughtful reader will see the contradiction here. If we are
> to doubt objective reality, how on earth can Stellatinus declare so
> matter-of-factly that individuals have any rights at all? Sounds like a very
> objective statement to me! Stellatinus may choose to accept what an
> individual may say about his or her self as true...but we are under no such
> obligation, and Stellatinus, having cut off the epistemological limb on which
> he sits, has no grounds to say that we are wrong if we do not do as he does.
> He also has no grounds to declare the edicta is unjust. To do so requires an
> objective standard of "just" and "unjust", which Stellatinus seems to doubt
> is possible. Stellatinus has made it impossible for himself to justify why
> the edict is wrong, or why we should agree with him that it is wrong.
>
> Then there are those who assert that because a person "feels like" or
> wishes to be of the opposite gender, Nova Roma must respect this and accept
> them as such in the name of "diversity" or "tolerance" {how I hate those
> over-used and abused words!} These people are actually demanding that Nova
> Roma, and it's citizens lie to themselves. They demand we call an apple a
> potato, merely because the apple wishes to be a potato. So why should we
> stop at gender identification? There are people in this world who believe
> themselves to be werewolves, Jesus Christ, King Henry the 8th.....and some
> probably believe themselves to be poached eggs. Are we to acknowledge these
> self-descriptions as true just because the poor folks who suffer from these
> delusions say they are true? Only if we accept this politically correct
> balderdash masquerading as "tolerance".
>
> Nova Roma, as a society with pretensions to be more than a mere role-playing
> club, has required that information on citizenship forms be correct, and that
> chosen names be consistent with the applicant's actual gender. No one is
> saying that a person cannot believe whatever they wish about themselves. No
> one is saying that a man cannot sign a post or email with a feminine name.
> There are no "rights" being violated by this edict.
> The ones who would violate any rights at all are those who demand we deny
> reality. The only real right being attacked is the right of the state to know
> the truth.
>
> The edicta is fair and just.
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
> already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
> find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956706284/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3139/4/_/61050/_/956706284/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] do the words Microsoft delenda est mean anything to you?
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:54:31 EDT

Salve
<>
Didn't the commodore company go out of business in 1992? And the New Cista
system solved that problem anyway.

Vale

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.