Forum Romanum


Subject:	To Auntie Dex From Christopher Paterna <wink>
From:	"Donald and Crystal Meaker" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 01:14:34 -0000

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, dexippus@a... wrote:
> Crys,
>
> Please understand I'm not attacking you...
>
> But because you are certain of your gender (regardless of "no
lump"), doesn't
> mean others are also.
>

Point made my darling!!

> And with 77 e-mails to go through, I'm cutting to the chase...
>
> Regardless of what our national birth certificates say, some people
don't
> identify with that gender.
>
> Now, this may be a rare occassion for NR...but why put ourselves
out there as
> not welcoming of this branch of diversity. It hurts us. It makes
us look
> like hypocrites.
>
> Someone suggested that any trans-gendered people within NR can use
a
> nick-name instead of their citizenship name. That may work and may
be a well
> and good compromise. But why state up front "your citizenship name
has to
> match your gender!". It is draconian.
>
> --Dex

Maybe I'm just burned out, but it's not like this is really the first
time some edict or other has caused controversy. Won't be the last
either.

My days of commenting on the political are coming to a close, and I
thank the gods for the excuse not to be drawn into it <VBG>.

Pax vobiscum,
Crys


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	"M G" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230212192112185190015225190036129" >--------co@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 04:47:34 +0300

Marcus Prometheus:

In my modest and unrequested opinion
some important points are missing from the debate:

Both those in favour and those against freechoice of
gender names are trying to base their opinions on reason
and that is fine, BUT this discussion is not just theory, it
does not happens BEFORE starting NovaRoma.
Novaroma exists already, and has real people in it.
Marius Fimbria existed already, was a respected citzen
of NovaRoma, worked for NovaRoma, had friends.
Or he had no friends in NovaRoma ?
I appreciated of his posts, (I was honouredto be his
"enemy" at a certain point, but this is one other story)
It is for me UNCONCEIVABLE that he might be made
unconfortable in his home so to feel compelled to leave
point blank and WITHOUT A CONCRETE REASON.

A policy which causes exclusion looks to be in itself a bad policy
But perhaps it is necessary for others superior goals.
WHICH ONES ? Just love of uniformity ?
Or just blind imitation of macronations ?

But this is NOVA Roma. THIS IS NOT ANCIENT ROME !
SO, even striving to be more than role players,
the element of W I L L might be much
more important than in macronations.

Here novaromans are such JUST BECAUSE OF WILL
WILL, WILL, FREECHOICE, ELAN VITAL etc.,
and LOVE of ROME.
all ethical principles of paramount importance.

Titius is novaroman because he strongly wants to be such
His will wins over time and recreates something
reflecting a few sparkles of Roman Civilization.

Caius or Caia wants to do the same.

Before issuing a law limiting his/her freewill
(as he/she intends it, not defined from outside)
wouldn't be wise, ethical, and useful to
see which important, superior reasons do compel to do this ?

And to do this NOW. And to do this DRASTICALLY
(without using the ways of mantaing the sex unstated
by using the second and third declinations
as suggested by Dexippus).

There is NO SUPERIOR REASON to EXCLUDE

Censor Sulla is doing a lot of good work,
appreciated by everybody on the list,
and that's very fine, but this edict is perhaps
not so well considered in the ligth of the balance
between potential benefits (not immediate
or concretely identifiable), face to sure
pain inflicted to an innocent citzen
and dubious constitutionality (because
of FELT gender discrimination).

Those who cannot understand the benefits
would attribute just to bureocratic arrogance
the change of those rules which previously
admitted Marius Fimbria to use such name.
He used the name without that anybody complained for
such "irregularity" or without that the
organization demonstratedly suffered anything for it.

In constitutional states the rigths acquired
MUST be respected,
and in liberal states if possible even enlarged,
NOT restricted ligth - heartedly.

And even if wanting to imitate macronations,
please consider what was written by
> M. Octavius Germanicus:
> Discrimination of any kind needs to be consigned to the dustbin
> of history, as we did with slavery and the subjugation of women.

So, even in the real world modern sensibility imposes do not
to limit personal choices except in really serious cases.

VALETE.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voted
From:	"William Dowie" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=093176235078082031072212129024166089177098204046209130" >William_Dowie@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:32:57 -0400

My vote was 66.

"Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any
man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of
my life and the day of my death were fated long ago."
-Anonymous lines from For Scirnis
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Voted

Salvete,

<< My husband and I have voted. We were recorded as votes 058 and 059 >>

My vote was recorded as 067!

Vale

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:	"M G" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230212192112185190015225190036129" >--------co@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 04:56:52 +0300

----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;

> << The Censor(s) could also require that proof of
> surgery be furnished within a certain period. >>
>
> I disagree with you on this point only since we do not currently ask for
> proof of gender from any citizen. Why ask for proof of a sex-change?
>
> --Dex

Marcus Prometheus:

J U S T F O R F U N
: - ))))))))))))


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender: Censorial Edicta
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:30:51 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/25/00 6:17:06 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082116036098035140229088239144044009209130152" >Justini--------si--------..</--------; writes:

<< However, I believe the drawbacks of the edict (offending some
people, giving the impression that transgendered people are not welcome in
Nova Roma, and the intrusion of gov't into a private matter) far outweigh
the
advantages. >>

Ave Justinia Cassia!

--Dex


Subject:	Fwd: Dex Dex
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:36:29 EDT

Once again I call for the immediate expulsion of Michael Marconi from Nova
Roma on the basis of his continued attacks on me (see below e-mail he
authored).

I expect the Censors, Consuls, and other magistrates to do the right thing in
expelling this cancer (yes, Marconi...you are the "cancer") from our midsts
once and for all! For though this e-mail was sent to me in private, it fully
demonstrates the mentality of the individual here and his utter hatred (even
if kept behind the scenes) for some (if not all) citizens of NR.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Augur, Nova Roma

In a m--------g--------t--------/25/00 6:48:24 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=189166219009175162090154175108006077163098057046209130" >tacitusmagnus@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< I am back because I can do more good for Nova Roma then you could in 3
life times! Your anger with me coincides with your confused mental
condition, and has nothing to do with my disposition within Nova Roma.
You call yourself the "Drag Queen of Palatine Hill." I will take this at
face value -- considering it came from a from a man, or are you a women
today, of little respect for himself and for that of the betterment of
Nova Roma. You are a GAY RADICAL that uses Nova Roma as a pulpit in
which you preach lies -- in a perpetual spouting of trash. It is you who
should leave Nova Roma -- not me! For I know as a fact that many of your
post had discouraged great MEN & WOMEN from becoming citizens. It is you
that is the cancer - not me!
>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Fwd: forgot
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:40:26 EDT

I will hold the Censors, Consuls, Magistrates, and NR responsible if this
Fascist, Nazi, Fundamentalist is not removed at once! For according to this
maniac, they knew quite well who this germ was before admitting him into NR a
second time.

For those new to NR, Michael Marconi joined NR and then immediately began an
e-mail campaign on the NR comdemming all Pagans to Hell in the name of his
god, the Nazarene. He insulted Rome...he insulted NR...he insulted our
citizens. He was ousted...and should have remained so.

REMOVE MARCONI AT ONCE!

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Augur, Nova Roma

In a m--------g--------t--------/25/00 6:52:37 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=189166219009175162090154175108006077163098057046209130" >tacitusmagnus@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< I forgot to mention this in my last post to you! I told Sulla and other
parties concerned of my past. They then approved my membership! So
before opening your mouth and spouting more lies -- get all your
information STRAIGHT first! >>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Amiga
From:	w--------am wheeler <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:59:03 -0700

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:54:31 EDT
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------;
Subject: Re: do the words Microsoft delenda est mean anything to you?

Salve
<>
Didn't the commodore company go out of business in 1992? And the New
Cista
system solved that problem anyway.

Vale

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Felix
I just got the New amiga with a 4 68060's ( IE someone is makeing them)


Subject:	Mike Marconi
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:06:11 -0700

Please see Dexippus's message that is addended at the bottom of this.
This will not be long.

Remove Mike Marconi from the roles of Nova Roma citizens. Block his
address, all his addresses, from the Nova Roma list. When C. Aelius
Rusticus resigned he was not allowed to simply reapply. He decided to
not do all that was asked of him. Yet this "person" was purged from
Nova Roma and simply comes back. Yes, he snuck back in.
Such fits his "character". Now that he is known I ask our hard
working Censor Sulla
to remove Mike Marconi. I am also addressing this to the Senate just
in case any of them have missed this feature of the current
unpleasantness. Nova Roma may have to live with the questionable
concept of gender questions, but it does not have to tolerate
violators of its peace. In this case a "man" who openly attacked Nova
Roma and the
Religio Romana openly on this mailing list in a number of ways
including spaming us
with "religious" opinions.

C. Aelius Ericius.

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:36:29 EDT
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
Subject: Fwd: Dex Dex

Once again I call for the immediate expulsion of Michael Marconi from
Nova
Roma on the basis of his continued attacks on me (see below e-mail he
authored).

I expect the Censors, Consuls, and other magistrates to do the right
thing in
expelling this cancer (yes, Marconi...you are the "cancer") from our
midsts
once and for all! For though this e-mail was sent to me in private,
it fully
demonstrates the mentality of the individual here and his utter hatred
(even
if kept behind the scenes) for some (if not all) citizens of NR.

--Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
Augur, Nova Roma

In a m--------g--------t--------/25/00 6:48:24 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=189166219009175162090154175108006077163098057046209130" >tacitusmagnus@--------</a>
writes:

<< I am back because I can do more good for Nova Roma then you could
in 3
life times! Your anger with me coincides with your confused mental
condition, and has nothing to do with my disposition within Nova
Roma.
You call yourself the "Drag Queen of Palatine Hill." I will take this
at
face value -- considering it came from a from a man, or are you a
women
today, of little respect for himself and for that of the betterment
of
Nova Roma. You are a GAY RADICAL that uses Nova Roma as a pulpit in
which you preach lies -- in a perpetual spouting of trash. It is you
who
should leave Nova Roma -- not me! For I know as a fact that many of
your
post had discouraged great MEN & WOMEN from becoming citizens. It is
you
that is the cancer - not me!
>>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fwd: forgot
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:29:28 -0400

Dex!

Just because someone disagrees with your far left radical views you so then freely
label them using 'key word' as of the likes - "Fascist, Nazi, Fundamentalist".
Come on Dex , tell the truth - the only free speech that is accepted in Nova Roma,
according to you, is that which you do not find objectionable. If you didn't want
people to question your impromptu remarks then you should watch what you say -"
Drag Queen of Palatine Hill." It is remarks like these that turn away prospective
citizens faster then having them place the correct latin M/F ending onto their
names!

Tacitus

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:

> I will hold the Censors, Consuls, Magistrates, and NR responsible if this
> Fascist, Nazi, Fundamentalist is not removed at once! For according to this
> maniac, they knew quite well who this germ was before admitting him into NR a
> second time.
>
> For those new to NR, Michael Marconi joined NR and then immediately began an
> e-mail campaign on the NR comdemming all Pagans to Hell in the name of his
> god, the Nazarene. He insulted Rome...he insulted NR...he insulted our
> citizens. He was ousted...and should have remained so.
>
> REMOVE MARCONI AT ONCE!
>
> --Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
> Augur, Nova Roma
>
> In a m--------g--------t--------/25/00 6:52:37 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=189166219009175162090154175108006077163098057046209130" >tacitusmagnus@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
> < parties concerned of my past. They then approved my membership! So
> before opening your mouth and spouting more lies -- get all your
> information STRAIGHT first! >>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Now the best and coolest websites come right to you based on your
> unique interests. eTour.com is surfing without searching.
> And, it's FREE!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3013/4/_/61050/_/956720438/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3013/4/_/61050/_/956720438/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Quaestio minor
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:27:02 EDT

Salvete Cives,

Me ignorantiae meae paenitet. Quisnam, sivis, "Michael Marconi" est? Legi
eum monstrum qualemcumque esse -- sed nunquam sententias istius orationesve
legi. Stultiorne egomet? -- aut modo senilis?

Si placeat, latine responde(te) vel mihi litteris electronicis privatis
scribe(te). Non tumultum capio benevero. Gratias plurimas vobis ago, sicut
semper,

Acadianus Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fwd: forgot
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:38:19 EDT

What's next Marconi? Marching heel to heel and soluting a Furor?

--Dex

In a m--------g--------t--------/25/00 11:21:06 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=101166219009175162090005175108006077163098057046209130" >TacitusMagnus@--------</a>
writes:

<< ust because someone disagrees with your far left radical views you so then
freely
label them using 'key word' as of the likes - "Fascist, Nazi,
Fundamentalist".
Come on Dex , tell the truth - the only free speech that is accepted in Nova
Roma,
according to you, is that which you do not find objectionable. If you didn't
want
people to question your impromptu remarks then you should watch what you say
-"
Drag Queen of Palatine Hill." It is remarks like these that turn away
prospective
citizens faster then having them place the correct latin M/F ending onto
their
names! >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEX and TACITUS
From:
Date:	Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:40:34 -0700

Dex...and Tacitus Take this off the main list now.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:

> What's next Marconi? Marching heel to heel and soluting a Furor?

[SNIP]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEX and TACITUS
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:45:09 EDT

Salve, Censor

Gratias plurimas tibi deisque ago! Satis est.

Ac.Draco


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender reflection
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:53:48 EDT

I would vote for you for Official Gender Inspector. A person should enjoy
his/her work. ;-)

Justinia

In a message dated 4/25/0 10:23:21 PM, <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230212192112185190015225190036129" >--------co@--------</a> writes:

<< > I disagree with you on this point only since we do not currently ask for
> proof of gender from any citizen. Why ask for proof of a sex-change?
>
> --Dex

Marcus Prometheus:

J U S T F O R F U N
: - )))))))))))) >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEX and TACITUS
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:54:41 EDT

In a m--------g--------t--------/25/00 8:43:59 PM PST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< Dex...and Tacitus Take this off the main list now.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
>>
Here! Here!

Drusus Cornelius Claudius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:58:25 EDT

In a message dated 4/25/00 9:47:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230212192112185190015225190036129" >--------co@--------</a>
writes:

<< It is for me UNCONCEIVABLE that he might be made
unconfortable in his home so to feel compelled to leave
point blank and WITHOUT A CONCRETE REASON. >>

No one was compelled to leave. It was a choice, freely made.

<< A policy which causes exclusion looks to be in itself a bad policy>>

No one is being excluded. All people just have to submit truthful
information on their forms, which means facing reality. That is all. No one
is denied anything based on "orientation" or the like.

<<In constitutional states the rigths acquired
MUST be respected,
and in liberal states if possible even enlarged,
NOT restricted ligth - heartedly.>>

Since when is submitting false information on an application and demanding
all the rest of us and the state acknowledge this falsehood as truth a
"right"?

For the record, Fimbria did not lie on her application. From what I
understand, she was truthful and asked for a name change later. Comments
about submitting false information in my post do not apply to Fimbria.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Every miracle for 3 days only....
From:	hadji <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=180166080058082135130082190036" >hadji@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:14:00 +0200

Salvete Novaromani et alii,

I have just briefly read the digests from the list for the last few
days and have not payed any attention to the gender-discussion. But once
I mentioned there that the discussion is around a friend of mine I
decided to post that.
I do not know what exactly started that discussion and do not find it
enough important to look and trace in the archives, but...
I do not fing to be appropriate, polite and acceptable anybody's
personal affairs to be discussed publicly.
As for Censorial Edict I do not find anything discriminating if there
would be gender field. Actually it is everywhere, but what a given
person feel is his/her matter only.

It is very possible that this my post is off topic here and I have
misunderstood the main topic of that discussion. In any case I find it
not to be so important and as Balkan peoples say - every miracle is for
three days only. So, no need to dramaticize what have been said here.
I support both of my friends Fimbria and Sulla and do not see any reason
for one's leaving NR.
Let us to talk about Roman history, religion, philosphy or
somethingelse, not about personal affairs of our friends.

Bene vale

Alexander I.C. Probus


Subject:	Announcement from the Senior Consul - Personal Attacks will cease at once!
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 03:32:50 EDT

Salvete citizens!
Personal attacks on citizens of Nova Roma because of their beliefs are not
tolerated in this Forum.
You don't like a person, that is expected, nobody in a community likes
everybody, but people still must get along. And getting along means no
personal public attacks on citizens.
If you are new to this forum this is not the Nova Roma way. We usually
demonstrate more decorum. While I understand that L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
edicta was disturbing to some people, that was no excuse for some of the
attacks I witnessed this afternoon.
Any citizen who attacks another in print in the public forum is in violation
of the above rule and will be banned from the forum and Taverna for a to be
determined length of time. Any citizen that attacks another in the Taverna,
is in violation and will be banned from both for a to be determined length of
time. Any person who posts inflammatory private mails to further excite the
situation in the forum, is in violation and will be penalized.
I don't want to put this list in the hands of a moderator, I believe in free
expression, but people have been taking advantage of the word "free." I will
not hesitate to do this. If this list is moderated, this means postings will
occur at the moderator's discretion, and might take days for posts to show up
on this list.
Such censorship is only as a last resort. If you citizens police yourselves
then Marcus Minucius Audens and I will not have to take this drastic step.
I leave the decision in your capable hands and voices.

Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Warning from Praetor Antonius Gryllus Graecus
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:33:16 +0100

Salvete omnes

I'm back from holidays (I would rather say from "non-working-days" for I'm
not Christian) and I got amazed with the ammount of postings containing
personal attacks.
I second the Consuls on saying that more drastic measures are needed if this
atmosphere continues. I also remind you that the Praetores are precisely the
SPQR instruments for those measures.

Marconius, if you keep opening your mouth, I shall call the Comitia
Centuriata to judge all your offences towards Roma, the Roman Gods, the
Roman intitutions and the Roman people.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor


Subject:	Law n' order
From:	A--------Pearso--------t;a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=243071080200035219184098109219176090136026139046209" >a--------pearso--------..</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:39:29 +0100

Salvete, Quirites!

I couldn't help noticing, but 2 citizens recently and publically
called (repeatedly, in one case!) for the expulsion of a third citizen from
Nova Roma. This is serious stuff!

I gather the citizen in question was previously expelled by the senate? That
may have been fine before the interregnum, but (unless I missed something)
nowadays citizenship can only be removed by the Comitia Centuriata. Now X is
back, apparently with Censorial permission.

I don't want to get drawn into a thread about whether or not X should or
shouldn't be expelled. That sort of thing shouldn't be decided by mobs in
the forum. In most countries, it is decided by reference to laws which seek
to define reasonable and unreasonable conduct.

Oops! We don't seem to have any!

So, assuming I haven't missed something in the Tabularium:

Standing in the forum, could I petition the administrators of the law, whom
I believe to be the Praetors, to consider whether or not there should be an
edicta giving guidance concerning acceptable behaviour towards other
citizens?

Remember, O Quirites, that one of the greatest and longest lasting
achievements of Roma Antiqua was the habit of living by the law.

Valete, Omnes, in Pace Deorum

Tiberius Claudius Lucentius, Quintae filius, Voturia tribu, Vindex.

(or something like that :-))


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Law n' order
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:47:03 +0100

Salvete Tiberi Claudi Lucenti et al

>I gather the citizen in question was previously expelled by the senate?
That
>may have been fine before the interregnum, but (unless I missed something)
>nowadays citizenship can only be removed by the Comitia Centuriata. Now X
is
>back, apparently with Censorial permission.
That's right. As I have already announced, I shall call the Comitia
Centuriata if that citizen keeps disrespecting the Law of Nova Roma.

>I don't want to get drawn into a thread about whether or not X should or
>shouldn't be expelled. That sort of thing shouldn't be decided by mobs in
>the forum. In most countries, it is decided by reference to laws which seek
>to define reasonable and unreasonable conduct.
>Oops! We don't seem to have any!
Wrong. Read the Constitution:
<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution_new2.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution_new2.html</a>

II.A.3 Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic heritage, gender,
religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.

VI.A The Religio Romana, the worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome,
shall be the official religion of Nova Roma. All magistrates and Senators,
as officers of the State, shall be required to publically show respect for
the Religio Romana and the Gods and Goddesses that made Rome great.
Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio
Romana, but may not engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or
defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its practitioners.

See the Declaration of Nova Roma:
<a href="http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html</a>
"Citizenship in Nova Roma is open to people of all nationalities and races.
The express purpose of our nation is to promote international understanding
and cooperation through the preservation of our common Classical foundation,
and to breathe new life and honor into all Western Civilization through the
restoration of ancient Piety, Virtue, and Civilitas."

It may not be completed, but this provides more than enough to accuse
Marconi. And I shall call the Comitia Centuriata if that citizen (is he
worth of the title?) does not apologize to Dexippus and to the SPQR.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fwd: forgot
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189176234185056182213038203004129208071" >tinnekke@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:55:36 GMT

Salvete Omnes

I need to thank the honorable Dexippius for jogging my admittedly faulty
memory. I couldn't remember off the top of my head who Michael Marconi was,
but I remember all too well that horrible time when there was a hate-filled
salopard (pardon the French) on the list spewing his intolerance all over
the bandwidths. If this Marconi fellow is one and the same with that
hate-monger, then by Ceres, expell him now! I cannot speak for gens Iunia as
that is the place of my honored Paterfamilias, but I can speak for myself. I
will not sit still for such hatemongers being part of Nova Roma.

Valete

Lucina Iunia Cypria
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Marconi, enemy of Jesus Christ and of the Gods of Rome
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:22:21 +0100

Salvete omnes

Answering the many requests for Marconi's removal of citizenship, I remind
that only the Comitia Centuriata is allowed to expel citizens.
I'd also like to know that if Marconi gets to be trialed, one of the
accusations shall be blasphemy against the teachings of Jesus Christ and
attempt against the good name of the Christian community of Nova Roma. We
cannot let false Christians and heretics like Marconi dishonour the name and
reputation of many of our good citizens and magistrates.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor


Subject:	Re: Law n' order
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:01:06 -0400

Salvete Tiberi Claudi et alii

The Senate of Nova Roma exiled this person in January 1999. Whether or not
one agrees with the process, the result is clear.

The Senate of Nova Roma, following adoption of the Germanican constitution,
ratified it such that senatus consulta passed before the interregnum
(including the exile) would retain force.

Any grant of citizenship to this person was an administrative error that
will soon be fixed, if it has not already been done.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
Senator
>

>Standing in the forum, could I petition the administrators of the law, whom
>I believe to be the Praetors, to consider whether or not there should be an
>edicta giving guidance concerning acceptable behaviour towards other
>citizens?
>


Subject:	Some Roman Links
From:	"Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:20:08 -0700

Salvete omnes

I have discovered the following page of links to Roman material that some
may not know about, as I did not. Perhaps it will prove useful.

<a href="http://www.loyno.edu/~mcclain/romlinks.htm" target="_top" >http://www.loyno.edu/~mcclain/romlinks.htm</a>

Valete,
G. Albius Gadelicus


Subject:	Old B-movie Saturday night/ Sunday morning
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:56:22 -0400

Salvete Omnes

Some levity in this season of elections and controversies:

For those of you who receive the cable TV station TNT, don't enjoy or cannot
sleep on Saturday nights and have high tolerance for low-budget movies:

Curse of the Faceless Man (1958)
Sunday, April 30 at 4:35 a.m. ET/PT
Rating: TV-PG-V.

A description of this movie, involving a petrified Etruscan slave-gladiator
and a reincarnated daughter of a Roman senator, can be viewed at
<a href="http://tnt.turner.com/monstervision/weird2.html" target="_top" >http://tnt.turner.com/monstervision/weird2.html</a>.

If it sounds familiar, you're right. This is the same B-movie that I
announced a year or so ago. As then, I make no guarantees now as to the
quality of this film, nor is this announcement to be misconstrued as a
recommendation to watch the movie.

Valete

Gaius Marius Merullus


Subject:	Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:51:24 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete iterum...

Sorry to bother you again, but I cannot help but notice four bitter
ironies about this whole situation:

-- Sulla, Palladius, and Helena Equitia are permitted to acquire new
cognomina solely by announcing such on the List, and without any
administrative hassles whatsoever;
-- a former Citizen who was banished in '98 (for blaspheming the Roman
faith and misrepresenting the Christian one) is allowed to sneak back
in under a different name (I could have *told* the Censores it was him,
but no, nobody asked me); another Citizen-prospect has also been
admitted since my departure whom Sulla and I had previously agreed was
unsuitable;
-- Sulla has appointed as his new Nomenclator the man whose gens
contains the most Roman-name irregularities of any in Nova Roma, rather
than take me up on my offer of continued assistance;

-- yet people are worried about a useful Citizen reapplying under a
masculine name?????

You ask me, those two edicta (gender and 'truthfulness'--whose truth?)
were published for one single reason: to keep me from doing what I
should have done in the first place--(re)applied as Lucius Marius
Fimbria, a Roman name that I have in fact been using in the 'real
world' for many years!

Which brings me to a fifth irony: If I had applied as Lucius Marius in
the first place, nobody would have even batted an eyelash...

BTW, just to clarify a term: 'transgendered' means a person feels like
a man stuck in a woman's body or vice-versa; it does not mean that
person is going to go have an 'operation'. My sense of maleness is
independent of my physical being (which will be naught but food for
worms in another fifty years anyway; it's not the part of me that
*counts*), therefore I do not feel such surgery to be necessary.
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:13:00 +0200

I do agree with that at 100%. This is a very sensible remark on this
seamingly highly controversial issue (I must admit I don't understand why it
is so controversial).

In my opinion, the Law must be written in a way that concerns a majority,
but must include the way exceptions can be treated.

I Querius Armoricus


Subject:	Roman Calendar (Completely New Thread)
From:	"Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:18:30 -0700

Salvete omnes cives

Given the tone of recent debate, I judge it necessary to state at the outset
that this post is in *NO WAY* intended as agitation, merely as clarification
in Nova Roma's quest for authenticity. I make no demands, I advocate
nothing. I beg indulgence if these questions have already been considered.

As domina Andrea Gladia Kyrenia, among others, knows, I have a vocation and
interest in calendars and the measurement of time and the timing of sacred
festivals. Whereas the Greek calendar was basically luni-solar, the Roman
one was quite strictly solar -- even though the Kalends, Nones, and Ides
*originally* were tied to the phases of the moon, even by the Republic the
dates were out of phase and had lost this connection. Again, I *do not
advocate* a return to a lunar or luni-solar calendar -- such a calendar
would be patently un-Roman.

I have looked at a number of Roman calendar sites, particularly
<a href="http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html" target="_top" >http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html</a> and this has caused some
questions to occur to me.

1. How does Nova Roma currently determine the Nundinae (Market Days)? In the
Antiquan calendar, the Nundinae occurred every nine days -- counting
*inclusively* as with the reckoning of dates relative to the Kalends, Nones,
and Ides. This was accomplished by assigning every day in the year a letter
from A to H, in sequence; in the Julian reform, this began on January 1st,
the Kalends of Ianuarius. Supposing that the Kalends of Ianuarius (an 'A'
day) were a Market Day, then every following 'A' day would be a Nundina --
this would therefore be an 'A' year. The last Nundina of the year would be
December 27th, and the following Nundina would fall on January 4th of the
following year; this being a 'D' day, the year would be a 'D' year with all
'D' days being Nundinae. As the Kalends of Martius -- the beginning of the
Nova Roman year -- is by the reconstructed calendar at
<a href="http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html" target="_top" >http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html</a> a 'D' day, it would be
possible to calculate the current Nundina from Kalends Martius 1 AUC. The
process would be somewhat laborious and time-consuming, but eminently
possible -- firstly, if it is desireable to do so, and secondly, once the
following questions are answered.

2. There exists the question of the date February 29th, which I have not
seen in any reconstruction of the Roman calendar that I have seen thus far,
including that on the Nova Roma website. (A) Persons wiser and more
knowledgeable than I will need to determine the nature of this date --
comitialis, (ne)fastus, or whatever. (B) Should February 29th be assigned a
day-letter, in which the day letters for following dates will need to be
shifted one later, or should this date be regarded as an "un-day" which has
no letter? In my own opinion, this latter would be more sensible, as (a)
this would preserve the lettering of the days as given in the Julian
calendar, without alteration, and thereby preserve the "perpetual" character
of the calendar as given; and (b) if the year begins with the Kalends of
Martius, February 29th would be the last day of the year -- regarded as "not
a day" in many cultures.

3. The Christian version of the Gregorian calendar (AD/BC) does not contain
a Year Zero, whereas the secular version (CE/BCE) used in science does. The
calculation of leap years becomes somewhat problematic in the years BCE (BC)
if the version without a year 0 is used, although again possible. This is of
less immediate importance, although it will be difficult to formulate a rule
for the calculation of leap years that does not make reference to the
Gregorian calendar -- if such a rule is felt to be of any great importance
by the citizenry of New Rome.

With respect,

Valete,
G. Albius Gadelicus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Calendar (Completely New Thread)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:40:01 +0100

Salvete

>I have looked at a number of Roman calendar sites, particularly
><a href="http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html" target="_top" >http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html</a> and this has caused some
>questions to occur to me.
Ok. Thank you for your interest.

>1. How does Nova Roma currently determine the Nundinae (Market Days)? In
the
>Antiquan calendar, the Nundinae occurred every nine days -- counting
>*inclusively*, etc.>
Exactly. In last March, when I started to observe the calendar, I have seen
the last market day. It was a "C" day and so I've been announcing market
days every "C" day. I can nevertheless try to perform a new calculation.

>2. There exists the question of the date February 29th, which I have not
>seen in any reconstruction of the Roman calendar that I have seen thus far,
>including that on the Nova Roma website. (A) Persons wiser and more
>knowledgeable than I will need to determine the nature of this date --
>comitialis, (ne)fastus, or whatever. (B) Should February 29th be assigned a
>day-letter, in which the day letters for following dates will need to be
>shifted one later, or should this date be regarded as an "un-day" which has
>no letter? In my own opinion, this latter would be more sensible, as (a)
>this would preserve the lettering of the days as given in the Julian
>calendar, without alteration, and thereby preserve the "perpetual"
character
>of the calendar as given;
I have your opinion but the Collegium Pontificum has not yet decided. Maybe
you should se--------our -------- to <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=197233234165082131036102163219114090071048139" >po--------ices@--------</a>

>3. The Christian version of the Gregorian calendar (AD/BC) does not contain
>a Year Zero, whereas the secular version (CE/BCE) used in science does. The
>calculation of leap years becomes somewhat problematic in the years BCE
(BC)
>if the version without a year 0 is used, although again possible. This is
of
>less immediate importance, although it will be difficult to formulate a
rule
>for the calculation of leap years that does not make reference to the
>Gregorian calendar -- if such a rule is felt to be of any great importance
>by the citizenry of New Rome.
For practical reasons we use the Gregorian counting of years. Nevertheless,
our official date is AUC.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Gracus
Pontifex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	"J.P." <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:46:13 -0700

Salvete!

>those two edicta (gender and 'truthfulness'--whose truth?)
> were published for one single reason: to keep me from doing what I
> should have done in the first place. . .

Fimbria: though I am a fairly new citizen, I find it hard to believe
that the sole reason Censor Sulla issued these edicta was to target you in a
purely personal attack. I think you sell him short. Your four "bitter
ironies" do not represent you in the best light.

Citizens: The edicta are about credibility. Though citizens choose
Roman names, these names serve to represent to one another the seriousness
of our commitment to a revival of Roman culture, and a means of
corresponding with one another in our (currently) virtual community which
reinforces that commitment.

Citizens with inflated cognomens, and Sulla's acquisition of Felix,
fervently cited by Dex and Fimbria, do not threaten the legitimacy of Nova
Roma. As far as I'm concerned, if your gens or social group call you
habitually by a nickname, and you with to use it, you are entitled to it -
it is, after all, the name by which you are known. It is your cognomen, and
you can hash it out with the Censors if you want the cives roster to reflect
your new name. Grammatical errors in names can also be fixed.

What do threaten the legitimacy of Nova Roma in the long-term, however,
are conventions which present Nova Roma as a world of make-believe.

At every turn, the constitution and the Nova Roman community reinforce
that Nova Roma is about living Roman ideals. Our priests and many many
citizens are devout followers of the religio. At a face-to-face meeting
here in California, people called each other by their Roman names, talked
about the Nation to which we belong, and at all times gave the impression of
living the Nova Roman life.

Allowing someone to represent as their gender in Nova Roma a gender
which is not physically theirs sets a terrible precedent for community
involvement in Nova Roma.

The physical reality must govern the Nova Roman one. The standard of
honesty - physical status as male or female - is a just one. To allow
deviation in this fundamental regard is to allow Nova Roma to being one step
closer to what we all do not wish to be -

A Roman "Star Trek" convention, glorified dress-up for facile people and
their asinine amusement.

To extend this metaphor (hopefully not too far): One may "identify with"
spock. One may at times wear fake spock ears, talk and walk like spock,
because they'd earnestly like to be Spock.

But until you have the pointy ears - until you are really, *physically*
Spock - do not suppose that it is your "right" to demand that the Government
of Nova Roma play pretend with you.

The Government are not the people, however, and the people (including
myself) seem to support Fimbria's life decision. If she really wishes to
make known her life decision - to be physically a woman yet to identify with
and emulate a man - Fimbria need do nothing more than express this to the
community, which Fimbria obviously already has.

Given the fact that nobody wants a big fight here, it's clear that the
community accepts Fimbria's choice. She may seek to "push the envelope",
but in this case the Government is on the side of Justice, Legitimacy, and
Precedent.

But if the Government were to cave to her demands - to cheat the
physical reality in which Nova Roma's very serious goals are based - they
would gain nothing and in the long term hurt all citizens.

Salvete,

Secundus Troicus Ductor


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	"M G" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230212192112185190015225190036129" >--------co@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:29:38 +0300

----- Original Message -----
From: <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: mercoled�, 26 aprile, 2000 7.58
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy

> In a message dated 4/25/00 9:47:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> Marcus Prometheus writes:
>
>> <<In constitutional states the rigths acquired
>> MUST be respected,
>> and in liberal states if possible even enlarged,
>> NOT restricted ligth - heartedly.>>

Gaius Lupinius Festus dixit:
> Since when is submitting false information on an application and demanding
> all the rest of us and the state acknowledge this falsehood as truth a
> "right"?
>
Marcus Prometheus:
Submitting false information is not a rigth at all,
(but yourself acknowledge this is not the point
your words: ... For the record, Fimbria did not lie....... )

I am moderately in favour of a reasonable amount of diversity
and homosexual "rigths" in macronations,
(and absolutely against active persecution).

But I am also liberally in favour of private organizations
to be autonomously self ruled by their members,
SO, I would NOT be too much upset if a private
organization or a micronation stated a somehow
restrictive policy on some gender related issue
preferably for some real reason, not just bureocratical uniformity,
but this is just my preference.

What in my modest but strongly felt opinion
looks strange is an organization which states in the
constitution:

II.A.3 Citizenship is open to anyone regardless
of ethnic heritage, gender,
religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.

Read well, regardless of gender AND
regardless of SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

So constitution encourages transexual people
to become citzens.

If I were an all mighty, all knowin and all loving god
I would not create the world, but if I did perhaps compelled
by FATE, I would NOT create transgender people.
BUT they do exist, and so, please let's try to be kind
with them, they are brothers and sisters, they feel the
same pain we feel and some other more.
IF we cannot, and I ADMIT we cannot always please
them, or everybody, at least let us weigth our interest
against them. If our interest is just a fantasy, more
fantastic than their gender identification, let us renounce.
If our interest is real ok let the law of numbers prevail
(It's called Democracy).
When I can I am LIBERAL, when I cannot, I must be
just democrat, with some pain for the loss of Liberty.

Otherwise (without clear, concrete, important reason
it is just BUREUCRATIC ARROGANCE.
This happens in macronations, it is a worst pity if it
where is needed less, HERE where people is
assembled just by the power of will, of fantasy,
disiembodedly, just in spirit.
So is it so important the sex of soul ?

Here where it is unconstititional too.
What will you do close the eyes in front of unconstitutionality
who protects not only all genders as equals, but all
SEXUAL ORIENTATION ?
Or will you recognize at least the constitutional
fraility of the edict and FIRST
CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION ?

Do as you please, but for my scale of values
1) tampering with constitutional rights and
2) bureucraticism and
3) inflicting unnecessary pain
are all much more disturbing than
Marius Fimbria and Dexippus
gender problems.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Smart machos know better :
the more queers, the better,
(more girls remaining for the machos)

please smile : - )


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Calendar (Completely New Thread)
From:	"Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:39:52 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: Antonio Grilo <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Roman Calendar (Completely New Thread)

> Ok. Thank you for your interest.

And that's all it is -- I rather dislike having to emphasize that, but I
prefer redundancy to ambiguity. :)

> >1. How does Nova Roma currently determine the Nundinae (Market Days)? In
> the
> >Antiquan calendar, the Nundinae occurred every nine days -- counting
> >*inclusively*, etc.>
> Exactly. In last March, when I started to observe the calendar, I have
seen
> the last market day. It was a "C" day and so I've been announcing market
> days every "C" day. I can nevertheless try to perform a new calculation.

Perhaps no need. I would, though, be very interested in the mechanics of
that calculation -- *not* with a view to changing it, but simply because, as
I
said, I have a strong interest in calendrical matters. How did you determine
that this was/is a 'C' year?

> I have your opinion but the Collegium Pontificum has not yet decided.
Maybe

> you should se--------our -------- to <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=197233234165082131036102163219114090071048139" >po--------ices@--------</a>
I am not sure that that would not be regarded as intrusive, coming as it
does from a very new citizen. Would that be according to protocol? Or would
it be more correct to politely request that you, as a pontifex, pass it on?

> For practical reasons we use the Gregorian counting of years.
Nevertheless,
> our official date is AUC.

Of course. I merely meant that calculating leap years BCE would be easier if
there were a (Gregorian) Year 0 assumed. I don't see that calculation as
having much practical use for Nova Roma anyway.

Vale,
G. Albius Gadelicus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Calendar (Completely New Thread)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:57:22 +0100

Salve

>Perhaps no need. I would, though, be very interested in the mechanics of
>that calculation -- *not* with a view to changing it, but simply because,
as
>I
>said, I have a strong interest in calendrical matters. How did you
determine
>that this was/is a 'C' year?
Well, in fact I looked at the same site as you did and simply matched the
last (by then) market day with the calendar. It was pure 'luck'. But I can
study other solutions.

Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Calendar
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:04:19 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete!

On the Roman reckoning of the 'leap year', I have the following info:

The day 'February 29th' was, of course, not recognized or labelled as
such by the Roman calendar; nevertheless, C Iulius Caesar did recognize
the necessity of adding a day to February every four years. This was
done by means of the 'bisextus dies': rather than tacking the extra day
on at the end of the month, the sixth day before the Kalends of March
was simply repeated. So you had 'ante diem sextus Kalendas Martias'
(roughly the 24th by our reckoning); and the next day of a leap year
was 'a.d.VI Kal. Mar.' again--the 'bisextus' (second-sixth) dies.

IIRC, the extra day was a dies nefastus or nefasti partus.

In amicitia et fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:20:06 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/00 2:54:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230212192112185190015225190036129" >--------co@--------</a>
writes:

<< II.A.3 Citizenship is open to anyone regardless
of ethnic heritage, gender,
religious affiliation, or sexual orientation. >>

Absolutely correct.

No one has been denied citizenship because of gender or sexual orientation.

Fimbria may reapply at any time. I hope she does. And no official has said
she may not do so! She would be more than welcome in the Lupinii gens if she
chooses to enter it. All the government requires is an accurate application
with a name appropriate to her gender. The "orientation" of the applicant is
irrelevant. The applicant is still male or female.

Would you choose to test your interpretation of the Constitution? Unlike the
US, Nova Roma's two founders and Constitution makers are still alive. Ask
Germanicus or Cassius what their 'original intent' is. Germanicus' view is
already known, and as he is one of the founders, and as the current draft of
the Constitution came out during his Dictatorship, I would think that his
opinion is just a wee bit more authoritative than yours.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:22:59 EDT

Fimbria,

You go with your bad self! And for the points you mentioned below (and
others) is why I am totally upset with this Edict.

The fact that your name is Lucius Marius Fimbria is no different than a
modern day Irishman named Kelly Patrick O'Brien!

Kelly? Male? Female? Transgendered? Both? Who cares?

--Dex

In a message dated 4/26/00 1:54:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> write--------r>
<< Salvete iterum...

Sorry to bother you again, but I cannot help but notice four bitter
ironies about this whole situation:

-- Sulla, Palladius, and Helena Equitia are permitted to acquire new
cognomina solely by announcing such on the List, and without any
administrative hassles whatsoever;
-- a former Citizen who was banished in '98 (for blaspheming the Roman
faith and misrepresenting the Christian one) is allowed to sneak back
in under a different name (I could have *told* the Censores it was him,
but no, nobody asked me); another Citizen-prospect has also been
admitted since my departure whom Sulla and I had previously agreed was
unsuitable;
-- Sulla has appointed as his new Nomenclator the man whose gens
contains the most Roman-name irregularities of any in Nova Roma, rather
than take me up on my offer of continued assistance;

-- yet people are worried about a useful Citizen reapplying under a
masculine name?????

You ask me, those two edicta (gender and 'truthfulness'--whose truth?)
were published for one single reason: to keep me from doing what I
should have done in the first place--(re)applied as Lucius Marius
Fimbria, a Roman name that I have in fact been using in the 'real
world' for many years!

Which brings me to a fifth irony: If I had applied as Lucius Marius in
the first place, nobody would have even batted an eyelash...

BTW, just to clarify a term: 'transgendered' means a person feels like
a man stuck in a woman's body or vice-versa; it does not mean that
person is going to go have an 'operation'. My sense of maleness is
independent of my physical being (which will be naught but food for
worms in another fifty years anyway; it's not the part of me that
*counts*), therefore I do not feel such surgery to be necessary. >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:43:57 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/00 3:01:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a>
writes:

<< What do threaten the legitimacy of Nova Roma in the long-term, however,
are conventions which present Nova Roma as a world of make-believe. >>

Oh? Like taking names from long-dead Romans? Let us not fool ourselves in
disbelieving that the outside world sees us as "role players". What further
reiterates that view...Fimbria's chosen name? Or Sulla's? (as an example of
using a name from Roman Antiqua)

<<The edicta are about credibility. Though citizens choose
Roman names, these names serve to represent to one another the seriousness
of our commitment to a revival of Roman culture, and a means of
corresponding with one another in our (currently) virtual community which
reinforces that commitment.>>

If it's about credibility, then we all should b using our given birth names
and not hiding behind chosen Roman Names.

<<Allowing someone to represent as their gender in Nova Roma a gender
which is not physically theirs sets a terrible precedent for community
involvement in Nova Roma.>>

It absolutely does not! It may be surprising once you meet that person. But
would it make you feel differently towards that person as a fellow Nova Roman
Citizen? If so, then you should rethink your Virtues!

<<To extend this metaphor (hopefully not too far): One may "identify with"
spock. One may at times wear fake spock ears, talk and walk like spock,
because they'd earnestly like to be Spock.

But until you have the pointy ears - until you are really, *physically*
Spock - do not suppose that it is your "right" to demand that the Government
of Nova Roma play pretend with you.>>

You don't see the irony do you? If such a person in a "Star Trek" org wishes
to call himself Spock (whether or not he/she believes him/herself to be
Spock) is totally up to that person. For that matter, until someone in Nova
Roma becomes (to use your words) "physically" or "really" the ancient Roman
from whom they have taken their name, what "right" should they have to demand
NR's government "play pretend" with them? Right back at ya!

<< But if the Government were to cave to her demands - to cheat the
physical reality in which Nova Roma's very serious goals are based - they
would gain nothing and in the long term hurt all citizens.>>

There is no cheating reality here! There is no giving into demands! There
is only what is just and right by the anti-discrimination clause. And this
Edict absolutely violates that clause!

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:47:41 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/00 3:21:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
writes:

<< Fimbria may reapply at any time. I hope she does. And no official has
said
she may not do so! She would be more than welcome in the Lupinii gens if
she
chooses to enter it. All the government requires is an accurate application
with a name appropriate to her gender. The "orientation" of the applicant
is
irrelevant. The applicant is still male or female. >>

So Fimbria can reapply so long as Fimbria is not Fimbria but Fimbrius?

Oh c'mon!

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet!

<<Germanicus' view is
already known, and as he is one of the founders, and as the current draft of
the Constitution came out during his Dictatorship, I would think that his
opinion is just a wee bit more authoritative than yours.>>

Not to resurrect a dead(?) issue, but if you recall, Germanicus -- the
founder you speak so high of -- resigned from Nova Roma without any reason
given at the time and left us to fend for ourselves in the midst of the
discord.

If George Washington had quit being President in the first term and then
wanted to come back, I don't think the American People would have been so
welcoming regardless of what he did during the Revolution!

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	"Donald and Crystal Meaker" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:06:53 -0000

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, dexippus@a... wrote:
> Fimbria,
>
> You go with your bad self! And for the points you mentioned below
(and
> others) is why I am totally upset with this Edict.
>
> The fact that your name is Lucius Marius Fimbria is no different
than a
> modern day Irishman named Kelly Patrick O'Brien!
>
> Kelly? Male? Female? Transgendered? Both? Who cares?
>
> --Dex
>

Anybody remember Michael Learned?? Played on the Waltons for YEARS.

Crys


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:51:03 EDT

Salve

<< let us not fool ourselves in
disbelieving that the outside world sees us as "role players". >>

Well we certainly don't need to encourage it! I simply see that a woman
pretending to be a man or a man pretending to be a woman is outright lying.
Discrimination as described by previous rights movements was holding people
back because of something that can not be helped aka thats how they were
born. Black, White, Indian, Asian, ect.. are born with that skin color.
Many homosexuals simply became that way (although I know a great deal who
have an open choice). Those with physical or mental retardations; or
otherwise abnormal defects cannot help the way they where born... even if it
was at fault from the parents consuming alcohol, narcotics, or other drugs
which cause birth defects. Discriminative Points of view such as I have
heard "All Blacks Are Stupid" simply not true. It only takes one piece of
information to disprove a stereo-type. All the above is the same with Women
and Men. We are born this way, it cannot be helped. As I have seen in
movies "Denial is a horrible thing".

Vale

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:53:50 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/26/00 3:48:56 PM E--------rn D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
writes:

<< Not to resurrect a dead(?) issue, but if you recall, Germanicus -- the
founder you speak so high of -- resigned from Nova Roma without any reason
given at the time and left us to fend for ourselves in the midst of the
discord. >>

Irrelevant. He wrote it, and is the most competent authority as to its
meaning. Deal with it.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:20:14 EDT

So do you see a 21st century Middle American pretending to be a 3rd century
Roman Magistrate a lie? I hope so too!

And I'm sure the homosexuals you know must definately have chosen to be
so...'cause it's soooooo much fun being the pun of everyone's jokes, living
in fear of your life in some parts of the world, always cognizant that you
could lose your job or home on a whim....why wouldn't anyone choose it?

--Dex

In a message dated 4/26/00 4:52:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:

<< I simply see that a woman
pretending to be a man or a man pretending to be a woman is outright lying.
Discrimination as described by previous rights movements was holding people
back because of something that can not be helped aka thats how they were
born. Black, White, Indian, Asian, ect.. are born with that skin color.
Many homosexuals simply became that way (although I know a great deal who
have an open choice). >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:20:39 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/00 4:56:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
writes:

<< Irrelevant. He wrote it, and is the most competent authority as to its
meaning. Deal with it. >>

I wouldn't call him an authority! You deal with it!

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:26:01 -0500 (CDT)

On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; wrote:

> Well we certainly don't need to encourage it! I simply see that a woman
> pretending to be a man or a man pretending to be a woman is outright lying.

I think you'll find that nearly the entire psychiatric profession
disagrees with that.

Octavius

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:26:27 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/26/00 5:22:35 PM E--------rn D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
writes:

<< So do you see a 21st century Middle American pretending to be a 3rd
century
Roman Magistrate a lie? >>
If you don'g agree with the foundations why Nova Roma was founded why did you
join?


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Calendar (Completely New Thread)
From:	Marcus Pap--------s Justus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:23:01 -0600

At 11:18 AM 4/26/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Salvete omnes cives
>I have looked at a number of Roman calendar sites, particularly
><a href="http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html" target="_top" >http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html</a> and this has caused some
>questions to occur to me.

I'm glad someone has brought up the subject of this site's calendar info.
While the reconstruction of it is generally accurate, the day by day
accounts of what happened on those days is incredibly inaccurate. One can
go through and find plenty of howlers wherein folks are supposedly born in
the year we know they died (e.g. Virgil), and plenty of confusion about
names of emperors and stuff like that. The source for much of their Greek
info is suspect as well ...

mpj
(in anticipation of the relaunch of his 'This Day in Ancient History' page
... just waiting for my new domain name)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Law n' order
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:32:15 -0500

Salve Gryllus Graecus,

And your point was....?

Whatever it was, the quotations you present don't provide any legal basis
for expelling "X" this time around. They were the basis for his original
expulsion but they are not the matter of any current problem in this
Forum.

I really appreciate your religious work, Graecus, but I am quite frankly
getting a little tired of all these shrill cries to exile this person or
execute that person because *you've* decided they are persona non grata.
I don't actually think we need a priest for that.

Can we at least wait until someone has *actually done something wrong*
before we call for capital punishment? If he is here again with the
approval of the authorities, then you cannot logically suggest that he be
removed on the basis of what he was removed for before. If you think he
shouldn't have been allowed back, take that up with the responsible
authorities.

Let's try to keep some order in the Forum, please.

And let's quit reposting private emails without the permission of the
sender. That's not nice, and I still have copies of private emails sent
to me in times past which could embarass many of you.

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus

On 4/26/00 6:47 AM Antonio Grilo (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>) wrote:

>Salvete Tiberi Claudi Lucenti et al
>
>>I gather the citizen in question was previously expelled by the senate?
>That
>>may have been fine before the interregnum, but (unless I missed something)
>>nowadays citizenship can only be removed by the Comitia Centuriata. Now X
>is
>>back, apparently with Censorial permission.
>That's right. As I have already announced, I shall call the Comitia
>Centuriata if that citizen keeps disrespecting the Law of Nova Roma.
>
>>I don't want to get drawn into a thread about whether or not X should or
>>shouldn't be expelled. That sort of thing shouldn't be decided by mobs in
>>the forum. In most countries, it is decided by reference to laws which seek
>>to define reasonable and unreasonable conduct.
>>Oops! We don't seem to have any!
>Wrong. Read the Constitution:
><a href="http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution_new2.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution_new2.html</a>
>
>
>II.A.3 Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic heritage, gender,
>religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.
>
>VI.A The Religio Romana, the worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome,
>shall be the official religion of Nova Roma. All magistrates and Senators,
>as officers of the State, shall be required to publically show respect for
>the Religio Romana and the Gods and Goddesses that made Rome great.
>Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the Religio
>Romana, but may not engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or
>defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its practitioners.
>
>
>See the Declaration of Nova Roma:
><a href="http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html" target="_top" >http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/declaration_novaroma.html</a>
>"Citizenship in Nova Roma is open to people of all nationalities and races.
>The express purpose of our nation is to promote international understanding
>and cooperation through the preservation of our common Classical foundation,
>and to breathe new life and honor into all Western Civilization through the
>restoration of ancient Piety, Virtue, and Civilitas."
>
>It may not be completed, but this provides more than enough to accuse
>Marconi. And I shall call the Comitia Centuriata if that citizen (is he
>worth of the title?) does not apologize to Dexippus and to the SPQR.
>
>Valete
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Praetor


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:35:20 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/00 5:28:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
writes:

<>
Are you then saying that "this kind of people" act this way because of a
discernable mental disease? If so, we need not encourage it; we need to help
them work through it.


Subject:	The more things change.....
From:	"JusticeCMO" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045075066165082194184102072024114015071048139" &--------usticecmo@--------</a&--------/td>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:43:08 -0400

Salve,

It has been a while since I have been on this list. Life has a pesky way of
getting in the way of even the best laid plans. ::sigh::

While I am glad to once again have the opportunity to join this forum of
discussion, it does seem that once again a crisis (or two) is taking center
stage here. I will confess, I had been looking forward to a more serene
list at this point, but on the bright side.........I *do* seem to have
missed the major flare-up for a change. For this I am grateful. :)

I have no desire to engage in whatever the hull-a-ballo is.........so I will
end this "I'm back" post with a simple "It is nice to be here again and I
look forward to many pleasant discussions."

Priscilla Vedia Serena


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 17:45:09 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/26/00 5:22:35 PM E--------rn D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
writes:

<< And I'm sure the homosexuals you know must definately have chosen to be
so...'cause it's soooooo much fun being the pun of everyone's jokes, living
in fear of your life in some parts of the world, always cognizant that you
could lose your job or home on a whim....why wouldn't anyone choose it? >>

Actually I was alluring to bisexuals. Some of my closest friends while they
admit they are attracted to both sexes, they find that trying to be at both
ends of the ladder are too difficult.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The more things change.....
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:34:23 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/2000 3:03:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045075066165082194184102072024114015071048139" &--------usticecmo@--------</a&--------writes:

Salve Priscilla Vedia!
Welcome back. We have had far more interesting threads then this one in your
absence. I hope you don't judge us too harshly upon your return.
Vale
Q. Fabius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:52:03 -0700

Dex my edicta has NO impact on homosexuals. Maybe you should read it again?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy

> So do you see a 21st century Middle American pretending to be a 3rd
century
> Roman Magistrate a lie? I hope so too!
>
> And I'm sure the homosexuals you know must definately have chosen to be
> so...'cause it's soooooo much fun being the pun of everyone's jokes,
living
> in fear of your life in some parts of the world, always cognizant that you
> could lose your job or home on a whim....why wouldn't anyone choose it?
>
> --Dex
>
> In a message dated 4/26/00 4:52:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:
>
> < pretending to be a man or a man pretending to be a woman is outright
lying.
> Discrimination as described by previous rights movements was holding
people
> back because of something that can not be helped aka thats how they were
> born. Black, White, Indian, Asian, ect.. are born with that skin color.
> Many homosexuals simply became that way (although I know a great deal who
> have an open choice). >>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Double your manufacturer's warranty on all computers,
> home appliances, and electronics AND win up to $500
> towards your purchase!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3749/4/_/61050/_/956784060/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3749/4/_/61050/_/956784060/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Subject:	A face to face visit;
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:11:30 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete Citizens;

Since face to face is not something that we get a chance to do very
much, but I believe that we all agree should be done more, it is my
privaledge to report a very satisfactory meeting between myself and
Pontiff Marcius Cornelius Felix. Since there were quite a lot of family
and tour schedule requirements to be dealt with while my wfe and were
in the Portland, Oregon area, the timing was not exact, but we did get
to spend a couple of hours in discussion and getting to know one
another. I was also honored to meet some of the Pontiff's friends who
are also members of Nova Roma or who have applied for membership. I was
also privaledged to be able to invite a very polite and lovely young
lady to join our number, who seemed like the kind of person that we are
looking for.

While our agenda was not very structured, we did get to discuss several
issues of mutual interest, and a number of items that we both wanted to
know more about, in order to get a better understanding of each other
and our overall involvement in Nova Roma.

The Pontiff explained in more detail some of the inner workings of the
College of Pontiffs and some of the goals that lie before them as well
as some of the challenges. I discussed some of my political goals with
the Pontiff and asked for his input on several ideas which I will be
bringing before the Senate in the future. I have aso asked the Pontiff
to consider a closer relationship in our organizational status, and he
has agreed to give that matter further positive consideration, based on
some personal challenges that face him at this time.

Since our schedule precluded a planned meeting of any length, I felt
that we did well to manage the time together, and I was most pleased, as
always, to meet another Nova Roman in person. I wish to thank both the
Pontiff and his friends for the interrruption of their Easter Sunday to
host myself and my wife for a few hours of discussion and mutual
understanding. It was a pleasant interlude as well as a positive and
productive one. My thanks and appreciation to Pontiff Marcius Cornelius
Felix and his friends for thier hospitality and open discussion. It is
my hope that we wil be able to continue these face-to-face meetings in
order to get to know better our Nova Roma broters and sisters.

Valete, Most Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:16:45 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/26/00 5:22:04 PM E--------rn D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
writes:

<>

I don't have to deal with anything Dex. I am not the one whining like a
spoiled little brat about a perfectly just and fair law.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:31:13 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/2000 4:18:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> writes:

<>
Gaius Lupinius Festus
You are welcome to comment on laws and their effect on concerned citizens.
However you are not welcome to do any name calling. Be civil is all that I
ask.
"Spoiled little brat" is not civil. Since you two are never going to see eye
to eye about this, drop it, and let's move on with other things.
Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The more things change.....
From:	"JusticeCMO" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045075066165082194184102072024114015071048139" &--------usticecmo@--------</a&--------/td>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:44:51 -0400

> Salve Priscilla Vedia!
> Welcome back. We have had far more interesting threads then this one in
your
> absence.>>

Thank you! :) I am sure that is fact, as I have very much missed some of
the more insightful discussions that are the norm here.

>I hope you don't judge us too harshly upon your return.>>

Not at all! I remember all too well that these things do flare up, but they
also just as quickly die down again, so no judgement on this end.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

> Vale
> Q. Fabius