Forum Romanum


Subject:	Name-calling and insults
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:01:33 -0400 (EDT)

Dexippus and Festus;

Your verbal insults and name calling have no place on this list. If you
must quarrel and use that kind of language, then take it off--list!! No
one is interested in this kind of verbal punishment, and your continued
indulgence in such indicates to all that you both must have audience
for such antics.

I have asked you both to refrain from this kind of communication on the
list, and you have both chosen to ignore my first request. The Senior
Consul has asked twice that you contain your viperations and you have
ignored his requests. Several NR Members have indicated that they wish
you to take your verbal insults off list and you have disregarded them
as well.

I now ask both of you, for the second time, to take these arguments and
name-calling off this list and do so immediately, if either of you value
Nova Roma as you have indicated in the past.

Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:07:19 EDT

Salve

<< "Spoiled little brat" >>

As I recall the latin for that is "enfant terrible", but that dosen't look
like latin. Hmmm I think my old latin teacher was teaching us phrases in
french or spanish...

Vale

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Faber est suae quisque fortunae.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:18:38 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/26/0 3:51:48 PM, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:

<< Discrimination as described by previous rights movements was holding
people
back because of something that can not be helped aka thats how they were
born. >>

I have a transgendered friend who, all his life, from the time he was a small
child, as long as he can remember, felt he had been born in the wrong body in
terms of gender. One of his earliest memories is asking his mother about it
only to have his mouth washed out with soap. He was in such emotional pain
that he almost took his own life. After sitting for some time with a
shotgun, he finally decided to go on living, but as a woman. This was the
way he was born. It could not be helped. Believe me, if he could have
changed feeling this way, he would have. And he tried! For years he tried
going the "macho" route, growing a beard, wearing masculine clothing, and
working in traditionally male occupations all in hopes of forcing himself to
accept his biological gender.

This is very, very different than someone becoming enamoured of Star Trek and
deciding to emulate Spock. The psychiatric community treats people who think
they are Vulcans very differently than they treat transgendered individuals.
Learning to live as a woman outwardly, 24/7, was a very difficult process for
my friend, but he felt he was finally living up to THE TRUTH about his gender
rather than going on living a lie. Knowing about his lived experience is one
reason why I feel so frustrated when I read statements that people who wish
to use names of the other gender are being frivolous and/or deceitful, or
that they are somehow simply choosing to be difficult to annoy the rest of us.

Justinia Cassia


Subject:	Homer's Illiad
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:29:12 EDT

Sorry, but I missed a reply to me on Homer in the earlier discussion.

<< Which translation of Homer did you get? For me, Prof. Richmond Lattimore's
English hexametric blank verse translations are the best >>

I began with Lattimore. His translation is the one that came with my Great
Books of the Western World set. I switched to Fagles, and to be fair I have
to say it was easier going for me. But, the style called 'epic poetry' just
doesn't move me.

Homer's tales are over blown and silly. His Trojan War is not about anything
grand or moving. Troy is destined to fall because a jealous goddess lost a
beauty contest. The Bimbo Helen, vain and fickle, runs off with a younger
stud. And all the soldiers of Achaia have to leave their homes and familes
for ten years, all because Menelaus pride is hurt. Someone finally has a
bright idea: Let Paris and Menelaus fight it out alone, with Helen going to
the victor. It took them nearly a decade to have such a common sensical
idea, but I guess it was better late than never! Then, as usual, the
Olympians have to mess everything up, and all hell breaks loose. Achilles
storms off in a snit over Agememnons insulting behavior, and he ends up
willing to risk the lives of all his friends because of his snit. Only when
his best friend, who is nobler than he is, gets killed by Hector {who is only
trying to defend his unjustly condemned city} does Achilles finally regret
his silliness.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see greatness in this book. Virgil, while imitating
Homer, nonetheless improves on Homer. While I do not enjoy the epic genre, I
found Virgil dealt with grander and loftier themes. Virgil deals with the
birth of a nation state whose job it is to 'put down the arrogant' establish
justice, etc. His main character is also a much better guy than any of the
Achians Homer praises.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Welcome Back!!
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:42:02 -0400 (EDT)

Welcome Back Pricilla Vedia!!! I am just back from vacation and a
little behind the wave in catch up, but I am pleased to see your name on
the list again!!!

I hope that things are well with you and yours, and I welcome you back
to the list with flowers and wine (virtual of course--Grin!!!!!!).

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: Some Roman Links
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 03:07:05 -0000

Ave
Nice and interesting website. I already visitedit and like it.
Salve
L. Pompeius Octavianus

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, "Doug Barr" dhkbarr@i... wrote:
> Salvete omnes
>
> I have discovered the following page of links to Roman material
that some
> may not know about, as I did not. Perhaps it will prove useful.
>
> <a href="http://www.loyno.edu/~mcclain/romlinks.htm" target="_top" >http://www.loyno.edu/~mcclain/romlinks.htm</a>
>
> Valete,
> G. Albius Gadelicus


Subject:	You have problably seen this, but...
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:11:58 -0700

if not you can try this site.

<a href="http://www.best.com/~heli/roman/romys.shtml" target="_top" >http://www.best.com/~heli/roman/romys.shtml</a>

and if links are being screened out, it is
www. best. com/ ~heli/ roman/ romys.shtml

Roman mysteries ---- again.
Evoe!

C. Aelius Ericius.


Subject:	Re: You have problably seen this, but...
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=114166234009056153112037203168129208071" >danielov@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 03:19:37 -0000

Ave
Thank you you too for this link. Wonderful
Salve
L. Pompeius Octavianus

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, Razenna razenna@e... wrote:
> if not you can try this site.
>
> <a href="http://www.best.com/~heli/roman/romys.shtml" target="_top" >http://www.best.com/~heli/roman/romys.shtml</a>
>
> and if links are being screened out, it is
> www. best. com/ ~heli/ roman/ romys.shtml
>
> Roman mysteries ---- again.
> Evoe!
>
> C. Aelius Ericius.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Welcome Back!!
From:	"JusticeCMO" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045075066165082194184102072024114015071048139" &--------usticecmo@--------</a&--------/td>
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:23:22 -0400

Salve,

> Welcome Back Pricilla Vedia!!! I am just back from vacation and a
> little behind the wave in catch up, but I am pleased to see your name on
> the list again!!!

I hope you had a wonderful trip. Where did you travel to? :)

> I hope that things are well with you and yours, and I welcome you back
> to the list with flowers and wine (virtual of course--Grin!!!!!!).

Things are quite well around these parts. I was laid up with an emergency
appendectomy for a while, but I am back to work and my ability to re-join
the cyber-world is likewise restored. (Yay!) Ohhh many thanks for the
"virtual welcome basket".........it is very much appreciated.

:) Priscilla Vedia Serena

> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Double your manufacturer's warranty on all computers,
> home appliances, and electronics AND win up to $500
> towards your purchase!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3749/4/_/61050/_/956796125/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3749/4/_/61050/_/956796125/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:07:21 EDT

In --------ss--------d-------- 4/26/00 4:28:10 PM EST, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; writes:

<< If you don'g agree with the foundations why Nova Roma was founded why did
you
join? >>

Girlfriend...I was here before you even knew what Nova Roma was! So don't be
asking me why I joined!

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:13:01 EDT

In a m--------g--------t--------/26/00 5:52:59 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< Dex my edicta has NO impact on homosexuals. Maybe you should read it
again? >>

Sulla,

I didn't say it did. Maybe you should read my post again?

You edicta does impact transgendered people. That is for sure. All this
over a name? And for the record..."Sulla" sounds like the feminine to me.
Shouldn't you change your name to "Sullus" in accordance with your own edicta?

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:14:51 EDT

In a message dated 4/26/00 6:18:45 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> writes:

<< I don't have to deal with anything Dex. I am not the one whining like a
spoiled little brat about a perfectly just and fair law. >>

Considering that I don't have a gender-identification issue, but I'm
defending the rights of those citizens (past, present, and future) who
may...how am I acting like a spoiled brat? It would seem to me that you and
others are the ones fighting to get your way.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:20:25 -0700

----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy

> In a m--------g--------t--------/26/00 5:52:59 PM EST, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
> << Dex my edicta has NO impact on homosexuals. Maybe you should read it
> again? >>
>
> Sulla,
>
> I didn't say it did. Maybe you should read my post again?
>
> You edicta does impact transgendered people. That is for sure. All this
> over a name? And for the record..."Sulla" sounds like the feminine to me.
> Shouldn't you change your name to "Sullus" in accordance with your own
edicta?
>
>
Oh Dex, Dex, Dex, Tsk Tsk Tsk. My Full Roman Name is: Lucius Cornelius
Sulla Felix. I have taken it from the Dictator Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Felix. It is attested by many Historians. Therefore your arguement there
is null and void. My Roman name is Masculine.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:21:24 -0700

Dex you arent defending anything. Its LAW. Its done for unless the Senate
or People of Nova Roma overturn it.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy

> In a message dated 4/26/00 6:18:45 PM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> writes:
>
> << I don't have to deal with anything Dex. I am not the one whining like
a
> spoiled little brat about a perfectly just and fair law. >>
>
> Considering that I don't have a gender-identification issue, but I'm
> defending the rights of those citizens (past, present, and future) who
> may...how am I acting like a spoiled brat? It would seem to me that you
and
> others are the ones fighting to get your way.
>
> --Dex
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you love your Mother?
> Click Here
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3652/4/_/61050/_/956808899/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3652/4/_/61050/_/956808899/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Announcement of Resignation
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:40:24 EDT

Omnes,

I, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, Paterfamilias of Gens Luciania and Augur of
Nova Roma, do hereby offer my official notice of resignation from my duties
as Augur and as a citizen of Nova Roma.

Lest anyone assume that my decision to do so is based solely upon recent
events within Nova Roma (most notably the current Gender Edicta and the
continued allowed attacks by Michael Marconi against me and others on this
list), let me assure you all that this has been a decision I have been
tossing around for some time.

For the past three years I have been a member of this organization and have
seen good people leave Nova Roma for lesser reasons. There are numerous
reasons for why I now have decided to resign and leave. I will not list them
here. I am preparing an official statement that I will gladly e-mail to
anyone interested once it is complete. If you wish to receive a copy, please
e-mail me privately and I will add you to my distribution list when the
statement is complete.

Also do not assume that this decision has been made in haste. I have
consulted with former members of Nova Roma, current members of Nova Roma, and
my Gods regarding this decision. This is absolutely the best move for me at
this time.

Throughout my stay here in Nova Roma, I have been a "voice of reason" for
some, a "jovial spirit" for others, and a "pain in the ass" for even others
still. Whatever your personal opinions about me, they do not matter. What
matters is that my personal happiness, well being, self respect, and personal
DIGNITAS be upheld above all else.

I have made some friends here in Nova Roma with whom I hope we can keep in
touch. For Nova Roma does not make you Roman but only that which you feel in
your heart. And recent events, if nothing else, have allowed some to show
their true colors.

I leave governship of Gens Luciania to Iustina Luciania Orbianna if she will
have it. If not, I leave the governship of the Gens to Marius Lucianus
Silvanus. If he will not have it, I have urged them both to seek out a
Mater/Paterfamilias who will gladly adopt them into their own Gens if they
decide to remain in Nova Roma.

I do not regret this decision. I look forward to moving on with my personal
and spiritual development along the path that the Ancient and Mighty Ones
have set before me. For they have led me to Nova Roma and they are now
leading me out and onto better things.

I ask only to be removed from this e-Mail list and Lucius Cincinnatus' Augur
List.

Be well...and may the Gods lead you along your fated paths.

Damianus Lucianus Dexippus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:04:08 EDT

Puleeez!

It is NOT a law -- it is ONLY an edict of a magistrate. It has force ONLY
unless and until it is overruled by higher authority, of which there are
many.

Doesn't ANYBODY but me ever read the Constitution??? Do any of you know
how and by whom laws are made in this republic? Magistrates don't make
laws. Consuls don't make laws. Priests don't make laws. The Senate
doesn't make laws. Guess who makes laws? Or READ THE D___ CONSTITUTION!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla, perhaps Nova Roma should follow the lead of the
United States and require applicants to demonstrate some knowledge of our
constitution and government before they get to become citizens.

Lucius Sergius Australicus

On 4/26/00 6:16 PM <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>) wrote:

>In a message dated 4/26/00 5:22:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
>writes:
>
><< I wouldn't call him an authority! You deal with it! >>
>
>I don't have to deal with anything Dex. I am not the one whining like a
>spoiled little brat about a perfectly just and fair law.
>
>Gaius Lupinius Festus

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:08:02 -0700

Its an Edicta the lowest for of law in Nova Roma...like I said it can be
overturned by the Senate or People...I have read the Constiutiton, however I
am at work. And I am tired of all this bickering......There are always
checks and balances, which is what our Constitution provides. I have
exercised my authority in passing 10 Edictas as Censor. This has as much
legal authority as any of those 9 other Edictas. They are a form of Law.
:)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy

> Puleeez!
>
> It is NOT a law -- it is ONLY an edict of a magistrate. It has force ONLY
> unless and until it is overruled by higher authority, of which there are
> many.
>
> Doesn't ANYBODY but me ever read the Constitution??? Do any of you know
> how and by whom laws are made in this republic? Magistrates don't make
> laws. Consuls don't make laws. Priests don't make laws. The Senate
> doesn't make laws. Guess who makes laws? Or READ THE D___ CONSTITUTION!
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla, perhaps Nova Roma should follow the lead of the
> United States and require applicants to demonstrate some knowledge of our
> constitution and government before they get to become citizens.
>
> Lucius Sergius Australicus
>
> On 4/26/00 6:16 PM <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>) wrote:
>
> >In a message dated 4/26/00 5:22:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
> >writes:
> >
> ><< I wouldn't call him an authority! You deal with it! >>
> >
> >I don't have to deal with anything Dex. I am not the one whining like a
> >spoiled little brat about a perfectly just and fair law.
> >
> >Gaius Lupinius Festus
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bids starting at $7 for thousands of products - uBid.com
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3027/4/_/61050/_/956811854/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3027/4/_/61050/_/956811854/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Calendar (Completely New Thread)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:20:11 +0100

Salvete Marce Papiri Juste et al

>>Salvete omnes cives
>>I have looked at a number of Roman calendar sites, particularly
>><a href="http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html" target="_top" >http://www.clubs.psu.edu/aegsa/rome/romec.html</a> and this has caused some
>>questions to occur to me.
>I'm glad someone has brought up the subject of this site's calendar info.
>While the reconstruction of it is generally accurate, the day by day
>accounts of what happened on those days is incredibly inaccurate. One can
>go through and find plenty of howlers wherein folks are supposedly born in
>the year we know they died (e.g. Virgil), and plenty of confusion about
>names of emperors and stuff like that. The source for much of their Greek
>info is suspect as well ...
That's my opinion too. But I add that even the calendar reconstruction has
several flaws. For example, there is a mix between calendars of different
periods and because of that a day can be at once fastus and nefastus. That's
why I base my postings on original calendars from Anzio and build my own
descriptions.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex


Subject:	Law n' order (again) - Long (sorry)
From:	A--------Pearso--------t;a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=243071080200035219184098109219176090136026139046209" >a--------pearso--------..</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:33:38 +0100

Salvete, Omnes.

Australicus seems to have spotted my point:

>Whatever it was, the quotations you present don't provide any >legal basis
>for expelling "X" this time around. They were the basis for >his original
>expulsion but they are not the matter of any current problem >in this
>Forum.

and..

>Can we at least wait until someone has *actually done >something wrong*
>before we call for capital punishment?

...my original point being, *actually done something wrong* means no more
and no less than *has actually broken the rules that the community has
chosen to live by*. If the community (ie NR) hasn't chosen to agree on any
rules regarding particular aspects of behaviour, then nobody can be accused
of breaking the rules.

If we, O Quirites, want to be protected by the State against defamatory or
insulting email (pretty much the only thing that it can protect us
against!), then we should recognise that the State should act on the basis
of laws which afford equal protection to all - accused citizens cannot be
arbitrarily "strung up", whether by the actions of a Magistrate or of a mob.

Any such laws need to be put in place BEFORE acrimonious disputes break out
(I am labouring this point, I know). Perhaps if they had been, we wouldn't
now be loosing an Augur and valued citizen.

Praetor Graecus has suggested that (in this particular case), a prosecution
could proceed on the basis of the Constitution itself. I'm not so sure...

>II.A.3 Citizenship is open to anyone regardless of ethnic >heritage,
gender,
>religious affiliation, or sexual orientation.

I can't see how this applies in this case. 'X' is in no position to grant or
deny citizenship to anyone.

>VI.A The Religio Romana, the worship of the Gods and Goddesses of Rome,
>shall be the official religion of Nova Roma. All magistrates and Senators,
>as officers of the State, shall be required to publically show respect for
>the Religio Romana and the Gods and Goddesses that made Rome great.
>Magistrates, Senators, and citizens need not be practitioners of the
Religio
>Romana, but may not engage in any activity that intentionally blasphemes or
>defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or its practitioners.

The 'accused' here has not, as far as I can remember, defamed the Gods or
Religio Romana THIS TIME ROUND. What he did in the past has no bearing - he
has been punished (expelled) for that, and apparently been allowed back into
the community. You could argue that he has defamed a practitioner of the
Religio (and not just any practitioner, but an Augur!). I will come back to
this....

And..

>See the Declaration of Nova Roma:
<snip>
Again, I don't see the relevance to this case, and anyhow, the Declaratio
has no standing as a legal document for resolution of inter-citizen
disputes.

So all we are left with is that 'X' has defamed a practitioner of the
Religio Romana (Constitutio, VI.A).

However....

Constitutio II.C states: "The Orders. Even though members of the three
orders are equal under the eyes of the law.."

If all members of the orders are equal before the law, then, logically, all
citizens are equal before the law. The Constitutio does not seem to forbid
defamation of Christians, Epicureans, Atheists etc. If you can't be punished
for defaming an Atheist, then you shouldn't be punished for defaming an
Augur (Augurs and Atheists being equal, and therefore equally protected,
under the eyes of the law).

Still with me? I'm nearly done.

If NR wants to be able to prevent flame wars (or engage in damage
limitation), it will need to "lay down the law" so that citizens have
something to appeal to if they think their rights have been violated. IMHO,
that's one of the things we elect Magistrates for.

If NR decides to muddle through on this sort of issue, I think that every
time a dispute grows too personal, we risk loosing valued citizens (and
deterring prospective citizens from joining).

I conclude by repeating my original petition:

"Standing in the forum, could I petition the administrators of the law, whom
I believe to be the Praetors, to consider whether or not there should be an
edicta giving guidance concerning acceptable behaviour towards other
citizens?"

Remember, O Quirites, that one of the greatest and longest lasting
achievements of Roma Antiqua was the habit of living by the law.

If you're still with me - thank you for your time.

If you're not - it's safe to come out now, I've finished.

Valete

Vindex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Law n' order
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:37:04 +0100

Salve Luci Sergi Australici

>And your point was....?
>Whatever it was, the quotations you present don't provide any legal basis
>for expelling "X" this time around. They were the basis for his original
>expulsion but they are not the matter of any current problem in this
>Forum.
You may have a point, except when the thing arrives at the disrespect for
sexual orientation of others, which is a crime against the Constitution.

>I really appreciate your religious work, Graecus, but I am quite frankly
>getting a little tired of all these shrill cries to exile this person or
>execute that person because *you've* decided they are persona non grata.
>I don't actually think we need a priest for that.
Do not mix things. I'm a priest and I'm a Praetor. Two separate functions
which I carry out separately.
Now. I do not decide to execute personae non gratae. I point what I believe
to be a crime:
- Festus has committed a crime of blasphemy. This word "blasphemy" is not
mine. It is expressed in the Constitution. I even was not the first to
accuse Festus for Consul Quintus Fabius Maximus did it before me. Me, my
coleague Praetor, the Senate and the Collegium Pontificum have analysed the
case. I have looked for precedents in ancient Rome. I could not find any
precedent, except when the sacrilegium was a violation of rites or sacred
space. Based on that I decided to forget the matter and not me "more papist
than the pope".
- Marconi has insulted Dexippus for his sexual orientation. That is a crime.
When I posted against Marconi I had not acces to all the thread. Speaking
with other people they told me that Dexippus was also guilty and somewhat
provoked the conflict. For this reason I have send a Praetorian warning to
BOTH. As to the expulsion (or execution as you call it) of Marconi, I remind
you that he can defend himself and present witnesses. The same applies to
Dexippus (who has now resignated). Any legal action will depend on the
result of my preliminary investigations.

>Can we at least wait until someone has *actually done something wrong*
>before we call for capital punishment? If he is here again with the
>approval of the authorities, then you cannot logically suggest that he be
>removed on the basis of what he was removed for before. If you think he
>shouldn't have been allowed back, take that up with the responsible
>authorities.
To allow him back is the work of the Censores, not mine. On my part I bring
those who commit crimes before the Comitia Centuriata which I have not
called yet.

>Let's try to keep some order in the Forum, please.
That's what I'm trying to do.

>And let's quit reposting private emails without the permission of the
>sender. That's not nice, and I still have copies of private emails sent
>to me in times past which could embarass many of you.
I think I'm innocent from this one.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Resignation
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:39:28 +0100

Salve Dexippe

>I, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, Paterfamilias of Gens Luciania and Augur of
>Nova Roma, do hereby offer my official notice of resignation from my duties
>as Augur and as a citizen of Nova Roma.
An Augur cannot resign. He is forever an Augur and listed as such, even if
not a citizen.

Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Law n' order (again) - Long (sorry)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:42:18 +0100

Salve Vindex

You are a good lawyer! =)

Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor


Subject:	Elections
From:	hadji <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=180166080058082135130082190036" >hadji@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:47:42 +0200

Salvete Navaromani,

I have just voted with the vote number 84 and I hope, no.. I am
absolutly sure my candidates will win.
God and Spirits, help them!

Bene vale

Alexander I.C. Probus


Subject:	Fw: FW: A Pink Ribbon
From:	Jennifer E Hunt <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=194176114182127134138038203001129208071" >riturtle@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:09:27 -0400

--------- Forwarded message ----------
Fro--------#34;Jan Curran" <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=210130180150127162036223203163129208071" >ivydruid@--------</a>
To: <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=210130180150127162036223203163129208071" >ivydruid@--------</a>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:36:17 -0400
Subject: FW: A Pink Ribbon
Message-ID: <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=241033005037211112114197075003143020197040065229011247164196028122030221237121162166009022087247055170226104130016081052244195" >NDBBLCCLOLFKBONFBGIOMEKJDLAA.ivydruid@--------</a>

-----Original Message-----

A Pink Ribbon

A handsome, middle-aged man walked quietly into the cafe and sat down.
Before he ordered, he couldn't help but notice a group of younger men at
the
table next to him. It was obvious they were making fun of something
about
him, and it wasn't until he remembered he was wearing a small pink ribbon
on
the lapel of his suit, that he became aware of what the joke was all
about.

The man brushed off the reaction as ignorance, but the smirks began to
get
to him. He looked one of the rude men square in the eye, placed his hand
beneath the ribbon and asked, quizzically, "This?".

With that, the men all began to laugh out loud. The man he addressed
said,
as he fought back laughter, "Hey, sorry man, but we were just commenting
on
how pretty your little ribbon looks against your blue jacket!"

The middle aged man calmly motioned for the joker to come over to his
table
and invited him to sit down. As uncomfortable as he was, the guy obliged,
not really sure why. In a soft voice, the middle aged man said, "I wear
this
ribbon to bring awareness about breast cancer. I wear it in my mother's
honor."

"Oh, sorry dude. She died of breast cancer?"

"No, she didn't. She's alive and well. But her breasts nourished me as
an
infant, and were a soft resting place for my head when I was scared or
lonely as a little boy. I'm very grateful for my mother's breasts, and
her
health."

"Umm", the stranger replied, "yeah".

"And I wear this ribbon to honor my wife",the middle aged man went on.

"And she's okay, too?", the other guy asked.

"Oh, yes. She's fine. Her breasts have been a great source of loving
pleasure for both of us, and with them, she nurtured and nourished our
beautiful daughter 23 years ago. I am grateful for my wife's breasts, and
for her health."

"Uh huh. And I guess you wear it to honor your daughter, also?"

"No. It's too late to honor my daughter by wearing it now. My daughter
died
of breast cancer one month ago. She thought she was too young to have
breast cancer, so when she accidentally noticed a small lump, she ignored
it. She thought that since it wasn't painful, it must not be anything to
worry about."

Shaken and ashamed, the now sober stranger said, "Oh, man, I'm so sorry
mister".

"So, in my daughter's memory, too, I proudly wear this little ribbon,
which
allows me the opportunity to enlighten others. Now, go home and talk to
your wife and your daughters, your mother and your friends.

And here . . ." The middle-aged man reached in his pocket and handed
the
other man a little pink ribbon.

The guy looked at it, slowly raised his head and asked, "Can ya help me
put
it on?"

This is breast cancer awareness month. Do regular breast self-exams and
have
annual mammograms if you are a woman over the age of 40. And encourage
those
women you love to do the same. Please send this on to anyone you would
like
to remind of the importance of breast cancer awareness.

A CANDLE LOSES NOTHING BY LIGHTING ANOTHER CANDLE.

This one I do ask that you send on. I send this on for the same reason
that
the man wore the pink ribbon.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:19:40 -0500 (CDT)

On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------; wrote:

> You edicta does impact transgendered people. That is for sure. All this
> over a name? And for the record..."Sulla" sounds like the feminine to me.
> Shouldn't you change your name to "Sullus" in accordance with your own edicta?

The name "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" has a lot of history behind it, and
suggesting that it be mangled is ludicrous. I doubt anyone in the time
of the original Sulla mistook him for a woman on account of his name.

Octavius

--
Matt Hu--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>) |
konoko Network Consulting | Microsoft delenda est.
Graveyards of Chicago: |
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com</a> |


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Resignation
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:35:12 EDT

In a message dated 4/27/00 4:47:19 AM EST, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> writes:

<< An Augur cannot resign. He is forever an Augur and listed as such, even if
not a citizen. >>

Obviously I'm not off this damn list yet!

NR can do whatever they want with my name listed on the Augur list. I could
give two shits and a melba toast about it!

However, I will no longer be conducting auguries for Nova Roma citizens.

--Dex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 821
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 05:40:11 -0700

"More harm is done by good people trying to improve things,
than by evil people doing bad things."

[a quote]

Farewell.
C. Aelius Ericius.


Subject:	Re: Gender Naming (a note, not a rant) >({\|:-)
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:02:07 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete omnes...

...and sorry 'bout yesterday; sometimes ya just gotta vent...

>> And for the record..."Sulla" sounds like the feminine to me.
>> Shouldn't you change your name to "Sullus" in accordance with your
>> own edicta?
>
>The name "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" has a lot of history behind it, and
>suggesting that it be mangled is ludicrous. I doubt anyone in the
>time of the original Sulla mistook him for a woman on account of his
>name.

'Sulla' and 'Fimbria' are just two examples of names that end with -a
but are not feminine gender. There are others; Aurelius Cotta,
Cornelius Dolabella, Iulius Agricola. One of those odd-but-true Latin
things, I guess...

Himself again,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edicta - Gender Naming Policy
From:	"Tinnekke Bebout" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189176234185056182213038203004129208071" >tinnekke@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:06:12 GMT

Salve

"enfant terrible" is French

Vale

L. Iunia Cypria
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fw: FW: A Pink Ribbon
From:	"Rick Brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=189212253108160085015199190036129" >trog99@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:26:07 PDT

Ave!!!!

Thanks for taking the time to post this!
Pompeia Cornelia

>From: Jennifer E Hunt <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=194176114182127134138038203001129208071" >riturtle@--------</a>
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=246015020180018198187212108077006192194058171196000130152150" >Shirley_Yen_PhD@--------</a>, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166091098042162172057203119129208071" >marchunt@u...</a>, <a href="mailto:novaroma@egroups.com" >novaroma@egroups.com</a>,
><a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=014176235078082198223171228077062187177211044189209130152" >billi----------------1@--------</a>, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=125063044150229198180056001064100165134048139046" >wjudg--------ly@a...</a>, <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=114166047200248154015171190036129" >dafydd@b...</a>,
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137056020137056209036057046248147208071048" >CeiSerith@--------</--------;, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=045185091056056116184218249036129208" >jgreene@j...</--------;
>Subject: [novaroma] Fw: FW: A Pink Ribbon
>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:09:27 -0400
>
>
>
>--------- Forwarded message ----------
>Fro--------#34;Jan Curran" <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=210130180150127162036223203163129208071" >ivydruid@--------</a>
>To: <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=210130180150127162036223203163129208071" >ivydruid@--------</a>
>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:36:17 -0400
>Subject: FW: A Pink Ribbon
>Message-ID: <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=241033005037211112114197075003143020197040065229011247164196028122030221237121162166009022087247055170226104130016081052244195" >NDBBLCCLOLFKBONFBGIOMEKJDLAA.ivydruid@--------</a>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>A Pink Ribbon
>
>A handsome, middle-aged man walked quietly into the cafe and sat down.
>Before he ordered, he couldn't help but notice a group of younger men at
>the
>table next to him. It was obvious they were making fun of something
>about
>him, and it wasn't until he remembered he was wearing a small pink ribbon
>on
>the lapel of his suit, that he became aware of what the joke was all
>about.
>
>The man brushed off the reaction as ignorance, but the smirks began to
>get
>to him. He looked one of the rude men square in the eye, placed his hand
>beneath the ribbon and asked, quizzically, "This?".
>
>With that, the men all began to laugh out loud. The man he addressed
>said,
>as he fought back laughter, "Hey, sorry man, but we were just commenting
>on
>how pretty your little ribbon looks against your blue jacket!"
>
>The middle aged man calmly motioned for the joker to come over to his
>table
>and invited him to sit down. As uncomfortable as he was, the guy obliged,
>not really sure why. In a soft voice, the middle aged man said, "I wear
>this
>ribbon to bring awareness about breast cancer. I wear it in my mother's
>honor."
>
>"Oh, sorry dude. She died of breast cancer?"
>
>"No, she didn't. She's alive and well. But her breasts nourished me as
>an
>infant, and were a soft resting place for my head when I was scared or
>lonely as a little boy. I'm very grateful for my mother's breasts, and
>her
>health."
>
> "Umm", the stranger replied, "yeah".
>
>"And I wear this ribbon to honor my wife",the middle aged man went on.
>
>"And she's okay, too?", the other guy asked.
>
>"Oh, yes. She's fine. Her breasts have been a great source of loving
>pleasure for both of us, and with them, she nurtured and nourished our
>beautiful daughter 23 years ago. I am grateful for my wife's breasts, and
>for her health."
>
>"Uh huh. And I guess you wear it to honor your daughter, also?"
>
>"No. It's too late to honor my daughter by wearing it now. My daughter
>died
>of breast cancer one month ago. She thought she was too young to have
>breast cancer, so when she accidentally noticed a small lump, she ignored
>it. She thought that since it wasn't painful, it must not be anything to
>worry about."
>
>Shaken and ashamed, the now sober stranger said, "Oh, man, I'm so sorry
>mister".
>
>"So, in my daughter's memory, too, I proudly wear this little ribbon,
>which
>allows me the opportunity to enlighten others. Now, go home and talk to
>your wife and your daughters, your mother and your friends.
>
>And here . . ." The middle-aged man reached in his pocket and handed
>the
>other man a little pink ribbon.
>
>The guy looked at it, slowly raised his head and asked, "Can ya help me
>put
>it on?"
>
>This is breast cancer awareness month. Do regular breast self-exams and
>have
>annual mammograms if you are a woman over the age of 40. And encourage
>those
>women you love to do the same. Please send this on to anyone you would
>like
>to remind of the importance of breast cancer awareness.
>
>A CANDLE LOSES NOTHING BY LIGHTING ANOTHER CANDLE.
>
>This one I do ask that you send on. I send this on for the same reason
>that
>the man wore the pink ribbon.
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956837642/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956837642/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Law n' order
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:31:59 -0500

On 4/27/00 4:37 AM Antonio Grilo (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>) wrote:

>Salve Luci Sergi Australici
>
>
>>And your point was....?
>>Whatever it was, the quotations you present don't provide any legal basis
>>for expelling "X" this time around. They were the basis for his original
>>expulsion but they are not the matter of any current problem in this
>>Forum.
>You may have a point, except when the thing arrives at the disrespect for
>sexual orientation of others, which is a crime against the Constitution.

I certainly agree with this except for the fact that the disrespect in
question was expressed in private and it was a faux pas for Dex to have
posted it publically. I think there's a difference between privately
expressing an opinion and publically proclaiming it. If he had threatened
Dex in private, there would be cause for public action because that would
be a threat against the public order and an infringement of Dex'
constitutional rights. To merely express, in private, that he disliked
Dex and disapproved of Dex' sexual orientation, is not a threat.

Now if he is shown to be repeatedly harassing Dex with emails expressing
his distaste, then I think we should take action. Where to draw the line?
I don't know -- take it to the Comitia.

>>And let's quit reposting private emails without the permission of the
>>sender. That's not nice, and I still have copies of private emails sent
>>to me in times past which could embarass many of you.
>I think I'm innocent from this one.

Yes. That was intended as a reminder to Dex, who had re-posted a private
email from me and then one from Festus.

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus


Subject:	Attempting to bring some cheer.
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:40:25 EDT

Salvete Omnes!!

I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way, but I'm getting really tired of
the late happenings going on in this list. So I found a site
if anyone is intrested to visit,It's quite humorous.

www.landoverbaptist.org

Vale,
Aeternia Iulia Caesaria Caelesta Draconia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Law n' order
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:38:35 EDT

In a message dated 4/27/00 12:32:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=210166080237038233015038190036129" >iadams@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< Yes. That was intended as a reminder to Dex, who had re-posted a private
email from me and then one from Festus. >>

Dex didn't post any email from me. We did not exchange any email at all.

Festus


Subject:	Re: Roman Calendar
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:44:14 -0400

Salvete Luci Mari et alii

This type of info amazes me. Personally, I find it hard to try to reckon
time the Roman way, and the notion of the bisextus dies strikes me as a
little bizarre. I guess that I have a ways to go to chronological
Romanitas.

Would you offer me a clue where I could look to read about the nuances of
the calendar? I have an intimidating pile of books that I'll have to read
first, so I won't actually look up the calendar info for 3 or 4 years easy,
but I'll save the references that you post until then.

Valete

C Marius Merullus

>On the Roman reckoning of the 'leap year', I have the following info:
>
>The day 'February 29th' was, of course, not recognized or labelled as
>such by the Roman calendar; nevertheless, C Iulius Caesar did recognize
>the necessity of adding a day to February every four years. This was
>done by means of the 'bisextus dies': rather than tacking the extra day
>on at the end of the month, the sixth day before the Kalends of March
>was simply repeated. So you had 'ante diem sextus Kalendas Martias'
>(roughly the 24th by our reckoning); and the next day of a leap year
>was 'a.d.VI Kal. Mar.' again--the 'bisextus' (second-sixth) dies.
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Attempting to bring some cheer.
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:55:26 EDT

In a message dated 4/27/2000 9:41:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137028113185078198113149000077114253071048139" >Cy--------Rose@--------</--------; writes:

<< but I'm getting really tired of
the late happenings going on in this list. >>
Salvete all.

While I am sorry people are getting tired of these "goings on" I will remind
you that you are watching the functions of a living, breathing government of
a micro nation. Because of the fact we only have one forum everyone sees NR
function under a microscope.
So. We are doing the best that we can with the hand we were dealt with.
Please remember that.
Thank you.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus.


Subject:	Flora is coming...
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:06:49 +0100

Salvete omnes

I'd like to remind you that although we are having a bad time, Flora will
come to us tomorrow, together with the religious note of the day.

Pax Deorum vobiscum

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex


Subject:	Re-think goals?
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:15:17 EDT

Salve,

Now that two more of the "religio only" crowd {to borrow a term from
Fimbria} have gone, is it time to do a little rethinking of our goals? What
is it exactly we hope to accomplish? How realistic are our goals? How
practical? This is really a continuation of an earlier thread which asked us
what our "dreams" for Nova Roma are. Has the recent, and not-so-recent spate
of resignations substantially altered Nova Roma's identity?

My own reasons for joining are rather modest and have not changed. I
joined just because I like the ancient world, particularly the classical
world. I like the stories, histories, and 'life of the mind' that it
fostered. I try to be realistic in my views. I frankly doubt there will
ever be a big revival of classicism in the world, aside from those already
interested in classicism. I do not think it is likely that NR will ever grow
beyond being primarily an internet micro-nation. This is not intended as
pessimism. Only as honest expectations. I may be wrong in my guesses!

As for those of the relgio crowd who left, they will fare no better, and
perhaps not as well. I do not believe that here at the dawn of the 21st
century we are going to see a large revival of ancient paganism. We will not
see temples to Isis and Venus grow in our cities. For most of the world,
these things are but an interesting piece of history.

We live the bulk of our lives in the 21st century secular capitalistic
macronations. And at heart, I suspect that is what most of us are,
"post-modern" Americans, Brits, Italians, etc.

Now this does not bother me. Since my own goals are modest and really
based on personal interest alone, and not on an "evangelical Romanism", I can
easily accept that NR will remain essentially a small cyber-republic. Others
will not doubt not be content with this. And that is why I started this
subject.

I would like to invite comments. What do you think NR can REALISTICALLY
accomplish, and what then should it's identity be so that it can have a
chance of accomplishing this?

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Attempting to bring some cheer.
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:24:26 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Aeternia Draconia;

I thank you for your attempt to bring some cheer to this list. I
believe that there are many others on this list that feel just as you
do. I certainly did not join this list to be insulted or to have my
friends insulted, and then discuss these insults ad nauseum, but that of
course is the danger of any list of this type.

For a period of time we had a moderator(s) on the list who assisted in
this situation by setting rules and moderating the list. However, a
portion of the list objected to that monitoring for a variety of
reasons, and with total freedom of speech on any list comes the
question, just how free do we wish the list to be???

Each of us has our limitation on what we think is "enough" in regard to
discussions over difficult subjects and disagreements with each other.
Unfortunately that range of limitations is very wide. The "pain" of not
sharing that which we create with other people is often so great that we
tend to forget that these very people may not be interested, or in some
cases opposed to our demougogery and "clever" comments.

As I have recently been very forcefully reminded, the responsibility for
these insults and undesirable discussions is mine, because I hold the
position of Consul and Magistrate. Well, so be it--but I do not have
the power (nor do I wish it) of a dictator, so each of these
objectonable outpourings must be evaluated in and of themselves, and the
specific parties warned or "talked with" based on miine and others
feelings about right and wrong. If that is not sufficient then more
serious measures must be taken in slow degrees until the solution is
considered by the majority to be just. This all takes a lot of time and
discussion, and of course the differences in opinion also come into play
here. Everyone wants something done "right now" convieniently
forgetting that no-one in Nova Roma has the authority to stop any given
situation "right now." Also what is often forgotten is the protection
of everyone's rights, so that if we "sqash" one problem without some
review. perhaps you will be the next to be "squashed" without review, in
your turn. Such is not the Roman Way, or at least such is not the way
of the Roman Virtues.

The solution is a simple one, but probably too simple for those who are
as sophisticated as Nova Romans. The solution of which I speak has been
suggested before and that simply is, do not say on the internet any
thing that you would not say to a loved one, and any expression which
might be hurtful to another, at least take it off the list. Sarcasm has
no place here, because without a laborious effort it cannot be detected
from real feelings, and controversial subjects should never be reduced
to personalities. Pretty simple huh??? Well, I am sure that you all
understand what I am talking about, just as I am equally sure that some
of you think this message is stupid and others think it is simply
infantile.

I part with the old saw, "Adults are just kids with more expensive
toys!!" It may well be that if "kids" were taught to be polite to one
another when communicating in a faceless medium, much of this misery
would go away. After all, what do any of us care about someone that we
will never see??? Hmmmmmmm!! well I think my few face-to-faces in Nova
Roma have been most pleasing and most productive, but that is only the
minority of one speaking.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re-think goals?
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:19:59 +0100

Salve Festus

As always your arrogant speech bothers me, not for the content but for the
way you say things assuming that everyone think the same way as you do, or
at least believing your view superior to the others.

> Now that two more of the "religio only" crowd {to borrow a term from
>Fimbria} have gone, is it time to do a little rethinking of our goals?
What
>is it exactly we hope to accomplish? How realistic are our goals? How
>practical? This is really a continuation of an earlier thread which asked
us
>what our "dreams" for Nova Roma are. Has the recent, and not-so-recent
spate
>of resignations substantially altered Nova Roma's identity?
No, it has not changed and does not need to change. The "pro-roman" crowd
("religio only" is incorrect for many reasons) is still governing this
nation.

> My own reasons for joining are rather modest and have not changed.
>I joined just because I like the ancient world, particularly the classical
>world. I like the stories, histories, and 'life of the mind' that it
>fostered. I try to be realistic in my views. I frankly doubt there will
>ever be a big revival of classicism in the world, aside from those already
>interested in classicism. I do not think it is likely that NR will ever
grow
>beyond being primarily an internet micro-nation. This is not intended as
>pessimism. Only as honest expectations. I may be wrong in my guesses!
I respect that, and many surely think like you. Nova Roma is a place for all
classicists, pro-roman or not.

> As for those of the relgio crowd who left, they will fare no better, and
>perhaps not as well. I do not believe that here at the dawn of the 21st
>century we are going to see a large revival of ancient paganism. We will
not
>see temples to Isis and Venus grow in our cities. For most of the world,
>these things are but an interesting piece of history.
Well, you could say the same about Christian temples and sects, but they
keep being built for a simple: Religion makes part of human reality. Even
the scholars of pre-historical times have the "existence of cult" (e.g. as
found on Neanderthal sites) as a characteristic of humanity.

> We live the bulk of our lives in the 21st century secular capitalistic
>macronations. And at heart, I suspect that is what most of us are,
>"post-modern" Americans, Brits, Italians, etc.
Romans and Greeks were capitalistic as well. Their traditional religion
reflects mundane interest in opposition to more "hot" semitic and african
cults.

> Now this does not bother me. Since my own goals are modest and really
>based on personal interest alone, and not on an "evangelical Romanism", I
can
>easily accept that NR will remain essentially a small cyber-republic.
Others
>will not doubt not be content with this. And that is why I started this
>subject.
I accept that as well... But fight for my dreams.

> I would like to invite comments. What do you think NR can
REALISTICALLY
>accomplish, and what then should it's identity be so that it can have a
>chance of accomplishing this?
My main REALISTIC goal is to build a Society which is a reference for all
classicists, which sponsors excavations, classical studies, etc.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex, Senator, Civis et Magistratus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Attempting to bring some cheer.
From:	"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:52:17 +0200

This is the wisest thing we have heard since the beginning of the Gender
Name Scandal !!! As a new citizen, I was quite disappointed with the extend
to which this thing was going, and I was beginning reconsidering why I
applied. But reading the following declaration, I feel better now, Roman
Virtues are still there. Thank you.

In Omnes Deorum Honores Consulem habo
I. Querius Armoricus

Salve, Aeternia Draconia;

I thank you for your attempt to bring some cheer to this list. I
believe that there are many others on this list that feel just as you
do. I certainly did not join this list to be insulted or to have my
friends insulted, and then discuss these insults ad nauseum, but that of
course is the danger of any list of this type.

For a period of time we had a moderator(s) on the list who assisted in
this situation by setting rules and moderating the list. However, a
portion of the list objected to that monitoring for a variety of
reasons, and with total freedom of speech on any list comes the
question, just how free do we wish the list to be???

Each of us has our limitation on what we think is "enough" in regard to
discussions over difficult subjects and disagreements with each other.
Unfortunately that range of limitations is very wide. The "pain" of not
sharing that which we create with other people is often so great that we
tend to forget that these very people may not be interested, or in some
cases opposed to our demougogery and "clever" comments.

As I have recently been very forcefully reminded, the responsibility for
these insults and undesirable discussions is mine, because I hold the
position of Consul and Magistrate. Well, so be it--but I do not have
the power (nor do I wish it) of a dictator, so each of these
objectonable outpourings must be evaluated in and of themselves, and the
specific parties warned or "talked with" based on miine and others
feelings about right and wrong. If that is not sufficient then more
serious measures must be taken in slow degrees until the solution is
considered by the majority to be just. This all takes a lot of time and
discussion, and of course the differences in opinion also come into play
here. Everyone wants something done "right now" convieniently
forgetting that no-one in Nova Roma has the authority to stop any given
situation "right now." Also what is often forgotten is the protection
of everyone's rights, so that if we "sqash" one problem without some
review. perhaps you will be the next to be "squashed" without review, in
your turn. Such is not the Roman Way, or at least such is not the way
of the Roman Virtues.

The solution is a simple one, but probably too simple for those who are
as sophisticated as Nova Romans. The solution of which I speak has been
suggested before and that simply is, do not say on the internet any
thing that you would not say to a loved one, and any expression which
might be hurtful to another, at least take it off the list. Sarcasm has
no place here, because without a laborious effort it cannot be detected
from real feelings, and controversial subjects should never be reduced
to personalities. Pretty simple huh??? Well, I am sure that you all
understand what I am talking about, just as I am equally sure that some
of you think this message is stupid and others think it is simply
infantile.

I part with the old saw, "Adults are just kids with more expensive
toys!!" It may well be that if "kids" were taught to be polite to one
another when communicating in a faceless medium, much of this misery
would go away. After all, what do any of us care about someone that we
will never see??? Hmmmmmmm!! well I think my few face-to-faces in Nova
Roma have been most pleasing and most productive, but that is only the
minority of one speaking.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re-think goals?
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:03:36 -0400

<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> wrote:
>
> Salve,
>
> Now that two more of the "religio only" crowd {to borrow a term from
> Fimbria} have gone, is it time to do a little rethinking of our goals? What
> is it exactly we hope to accomplish? How realistic are our goals? How
> practical? This is really a continuation of an earlier thread which asked us
> what our "dreams" for Nova Roma are. Has the recent, and not-so-recent spate
> of resignations substantially altered Nova Roma's identity?
>

No. I don't think it has made any substantial changes. I am still
here, and while I haven't been a terribly active or vocal member
of this organization, I will stand behind the religio as an
important and integral part of the Nova Roma establishment.

> My own reasons for joining are rather modest and have not changed. I
> joined just because I like the ancient world, particularly the classical
> world. I like the stories, histories, and 'life of the mind' that it
> fostered. I try to be realistic in my views. I frankly doubt there will
> ever be a big revival of classicism in the world, aside from those already
> interested in classicism. I do not think it is likely that NR will ever grow
> beyond being primarily an internet micro-nation. This is not intended as
> pessimism. Only as honest expectations. I may be wrong in my guesses!
>

I don't really care if there is a huge revival. This is something
that I *think* a lot of us are living on a day to day in our
individual lives, trying to revive Rome within ourselves, with
this outward expression.

> As for those of the relgio crowd who left, they will fare no better, and
> perhaps not as well. I do not believe that here at the dawn of the 21st
> century we are going to see a large revival of ancient paganism. We will not
> see temples to Isis and Venus grow in our cities. For most of the world,
> these things are but an interesting piece of history.

I don't think that was ever a goal of any of the so-called
"Religio only" crowd. (Which, by the way, is a characterisation
that rubs me the wrong way, being part of that crowd.) We are
looking for likeminded people with whom we can share and learn
more about the the religio as it really was so that we can adapt
it into our own lives.

>
> We live the bulk of our lives in the 21st century secular capitalistic
> macronations. And at heart, I suspect that is what most of us are,
> "post-modern" Americans, Brits, Italians, etc.

Just because we live here doesn't mean that we have to perpetuate
it if we don't want to.

>
> Now this does not bother me. Since my own goals are modest and really
> based on personal interest alone, and not on an "evangelical Romanism", I can
> easily accept that NR will remain essentially a small cyber-republic. Others
> will not doubt not be content with this. And that is why I started this
> subject.

I am happy with Nova Roma as it is, and I will be happy if it
grows into something more grand... or if it doesn't.

>
> I would like to invite comments. What do you think NR can REALISTICALLY
> accomplish, and what then should it's identity be so that it can have a
> chance of accomplishing this?

I think that Nova Roma should continue to educate its members and
the public about the old Rome, and I would like to see us grow
and continue to refine our government. I'd love to see some sort
of Latin Academy set up to determine a standard Nova Roman Latin
and to help direct people to resources for learning Latin. And,
of course, I want to see the Religio remain as integral to Nova
Roma as it was to Roma Antiqua.

Ursula Numeria Fortunata
--

Mia Soderquist
Firetalk #605102
ICQ #19818811 or 5926593
MSN Messenger/--------ail: <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=224212066182018031172168072077172089134098204046209130" >ursulanumeria@--------</a>


Subject:	Why we resigned our Citizenship
From:	Donald and Crystal Meaker <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:53:09 -0700

Salvete,

There are many things that went into our decision to leave Nova Roma. To
much Political Correct Bull Sh*t being one reason that covers dozens of
little situations and flame wars. I am going to share ONE of the MAJOR
reasons we left Nova Roma -- lack of Faith in the gods by the very people
, including Priests within Nova Roma.

We began SERIOUSLY thinking of leaving Nova Roma many months ago. The
loss of KEY citizens to the Coup and Dictatorship came very close to
taking me and my husband with it. Then came the chance to bring the
Religio Romana into the public eye. I discussed it with the Pontifex
Maximus Cassius. He strongly suggested we pretend we were nothing more
than "history buffs". That we were not Pagan, let alone Roman Pagan. I
could not believe it! This is the PONTIFEX MAXIMUS!!!!!!! And he didn't
have enough faith in his own religion to hope it finally come across as
something good. He wanted us to hide.

Fortunately we refused! *I* knew there was no harm in the Religio. I
had so much faith in the Religio that I chanced losing my CHILDREN to
bring it to the fore. We gave books to the Social Worker in charge of
the adoption. We asked members of Nova Roma to write letters about their
PERSONAL experience as practioners of the Religio (this is where I may
thank, again, Cin and QFM for their support) and gave that to the Social
Worker. We brought the Social Worker into our HOME to see our Alter.
Anyone may pass by our house and see the statue of Juno in our front yard
(the artist I don't think was thinking of Juno, but when Terry saw it,
she said "Lady Juno" and that is who she came to our front yard as). We
hid NOTHING!

The Social Worker has finished her report. The Religio has passed
through the toughest court in the United States (IMO), Family Court.
Terry's adoption may even be pushed up from the original August date. We
have been told that to hide our religion from the Courts would have been
DISASTROUS!!! Not only would Don have not been allowed to adopt Terry,
it may well have come to pass that NO children would be considered "safe"
in this house because WE HAD SOMETHING TO HIDE! And when you have
something to hide, you open yourself up to the assumption that you are
doing something BAD! There is nothing "bad" about the Religio.

After another half dozen experiences with the lack of any true faith in
the gods by others, to include some of Nova Romas own Pontifexes (not ALL
of them, but enough to greatly disturb the gods), we decided to leave.
Juno has finally shown me the way to go. It is NOT the Politically
Correct Path Nova Roma has been on and will continue to be on. I need to
go back to living the Roman life I was living before I got involved with
this organization, where the gods will must be modernized so to be
non-offensive. In so many ways ancient Roma was as politically INcorrect
as to be open to all and the gods blessed it. The gods ARE open to
modernization. They are NOT open to PCBS.

I have finally succumbed to the will of Juno by speaking the words. I
can only hope they do not fall on deaf ears. While I breathe, I hope.

And so I joined Nova Roma for and because of the Religio Romana. I have
now LEFT Nova Roma for and because of the Religio Romana.

Pax Vobiscum,
Crystal Meaker


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re-think goals?
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:02:52 EDT

In a message dated 4/27/00 1:28:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> writes:

<< As always your arrogant speech bothers me, not for the content but for the
way you say things assuming that everyone think the same way as you do, or
at least believing your view superior to the others. >>

I do not think I was arrogant at all. I stated the reasons I joined, which I
said were modest, expressed some doubts about a largescale Roman revival, and
added that I could be mistaken! Saying, "I could be mistaken" is not the
talk of an arrogant person
This subject is not about me anyway, Praetor. I wish you had not opened your
note the way you did. But what is done is done.

<<My main REALISTIC goal is to build a Society which is a reference for all
classicists, which sponsors excavations, classical studies, etc.>>

That would be a real cool thing to see. I won't make any other comments
right now. I would like to see what others say.

Gaius Festus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The more things change.....
From:	"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:11:49 +0200

Salve Priscilla Vedia Serena

As a new citizen, I do not have the honor to know you much, but I did
appreciate the tone of your "I'm back" message. Your name of Serena is very
well chosen, because all this turmoil needs a bit of serenity to be calmed
down, I believe. (but I will guard myself from having opinion on names for
it seams to be a bit explosive these days).

In honores tibi habo
Vale
I Querius Armoricus


Subject:	Hmmmmmm.......
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:16:01 EDT

Salve once again,

Alright so my attempt at brining some cheer kinda failed. But that's okay at
least I know I'm not the only one who feels that something else should be
discussed. And I wasn't trying to forget about what is going on now. So
Audens and Q.Fabius not to worry, and to the comment Audens made about me
getting "squashed", for some reason that really doesn't bother me.

Vale
Aeternia Iulia Caesaria Caelesta Draconia


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Why we resigned our Citizenship
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:11:30 +0100

Salvete

Here is the proof that Donald and Crys Meaker are not Roman, let alone
followers of the Religio:

>There are many things that went into our decision to leave Nova Roma. To
>much Political Correct Bull Sh*t being one reason that covers dozens of
>little situations and flame wars. I am going to share ONE of the MAJOR
>reasons we left Nova Roma -- lack of Faith in the gods by the very people
>, including Priests within Nova Roma.
Faith is a thing of the Mysteries. Greek and Roman state religions are
RITUALISTIC, not MYSTERIC. You should speak of PIETY, not faith. Greek and
Roman religions have NO CREED, so you cannot have faith on them.

>We began SERIOUSLY thinking of leaving Nova Roma many months ago. The
>loss of KEY citizens to the Coup and Dictatorship came very close to
>taking me and my husband with it. Then came the chance to bring the
>Religio Romana into the public eye. I discussed it with the Pontifex
>Maximus Cassius. He strongly suggested we pretend we were nothing more
>than "history buffs". That we were not Pagan, let alone Roman Pagan. I
>could not believe it! This is the PONTIFEX MAXIMUS!!!!!!! And he didn't
>have enough faith in his own religion to hope it finally come across as
>something good. He wanted us to hide.
As TRUE ROMANS you should have obeyed the Pontifex Maximus, suppreme
authority on matters of the RELIGIO ROMANA. You should have followed the
guidelines of the COLLEGIUM PONTIFICUM and you should not have insulted
ROMA, and the DII ROMANI.

>Fortunately we refused! *I* knew there was no harm in the Religio. I
>had so much faith in the Religio that I chanced losing my CHILDREN to
>bring it to the fore.
Again, you treat IUPPITER like JESUS CHRIST. IUPPITER demands sacrifice, not
FAITH. And if you want your childresn to be true Roman, do not teach them
YOUR FAITH. Instead let them read good BOOKS on Roman matters, not magic,
Wicca and other non-Roman things.

>We gave books to the Social Worker in charge of
>the adoption. We asked members of Nova Roma to write letters about their
>PERSONAL experience as practioners of the Religio (this is where I may
>thank, again, Cin and QFM for their support) and gave that to the Social
>Worker. We brought the Social Worker into our HOME to see our Alter.
>Anyone may pass by our house and see the statue of Juno in our front yard
>(the artist I don't think was thinking of Juno, but when Terry saw it,
>she said "Lady Juno" and that is who she came to our front yard as). We
>hid NOTHING!
Iuno is not "Lady". Isis was, Mary was.

>The Social Worker has finished her report. The Religio has passed
>through the toughest court in the United States (IMO), Family Court.
>Terry's adoption may even be pushed up from the original August date. We
>have been told that to hide our religion from the Courts would have been
>DISASTROUS!!! Not only would Don have not been allowed to adopt Terry,
>it may well have come to pass that NO children would be considered "safe"
>in this house because WE HAD SOMETHING TO HIDE! And when you have
>something to hide, you open yourself up to the assumption that you are
>doing something BAD! There is nothing "bad" about the Religio.
On a legal point of view it would be bad to hide. But you should have
presented your religion as "Meaker Religion" (which has a right to exist, of
course) not Roman Religion.

>After another half dozen experiences with the lack of any true faith in
>the gods by others, to include some of Nova Romas own Pontifexes (not ALL
>of them, but enough to greatly disturb the gods), we decided to leave.
>Juno has finally shown me the way to go. It is NOT the Politically
>Correct Path Nova Roma has been on and will continue to be on. I need to
>go back to living the Roman life I was living before I got involved with
>this organization, where the gods will must be modernized so to be
>non-offensive. In so many ways ancient Roma was as politically INcorrect
>as to be open to all and the gods blessed it. The gods ARE open to
>modernization. They are NOT open to PCBS.
YES, they can be modernized under the guidelined defined by the PONTIFICES!

>I have finally succumbed to the will of Juno by speaking the words. I
>can only hope they do not fall on deaf ears. While I breathe, I hope.
I must say sucumb to your own will. You started a unfair war with Nova Roma.
The Pontifex Maximus tried to help you with advice. If you do not agree with
advice, simply do not follow it. Instead you think that every word is
proferred against your family. I don't understand you... We were willing to
accept you as Reges Sacrorum... You are very ungrateful.

>And so I joined Nova Roma for and because of the Religio Romana. I have
>now LEFT Nova Roma for and because of the Religio Romana.
No! You have left because of your personal frustrations.

>Pax Vobiscum,
Pax Deorum est nobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The more things change.....
From:	"JusticeCMO" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045075066165082194184102072024114015071048139" &--------usticecmo@--------</a&--------/td>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:54:50 -0400

Salve!

> Salve Priscilla Vedia Serena
>
> As a new citizen, I do not have the honor to know you much, but I did
> appreciate the tone of your "I'm back" message.>>

Welcome to the nation! :) I have been a member since the days when NR was
a series of phone conversations between germanicus and Cassius and I am very
happy to once again be back to this list and the interaction I have so
sorely missed with fellow Romans. :)

>Your name of Serena is very well chosen, because all this turmoil needs a
bit of serenity to be calmed down, I believe. (but I will guard myself from
having opinion on names for it seams to be a bit explosive these days).>>

I know what you mean about explosive issues. ;) The good news is that the
vast majority of these issues, difficult as they are to go through, result
in better communication among citizens and an overall benefit to the Nation.
Someone else said it best, what you see here is all part of the growing
pains of a still relatively young nation.

In the meantime, I am glad you are among our numbers and look forward to
getting to know many of the new citizens and re-connecting with some old
friends.

Vale,

Priscilla Vedia Serena
>
> In honores tibi habo
> Vale
> I Querius Armoricus
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You set the price on thousands of products. Computers, electronics,
> art, home appliances and more. Visit uBid today!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3026/4/_/61050/_/956858969/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3026/4/_/61050/_/956858969/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Subject:	Latina vivit was Re-think goals?
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:55:04 -0400

Salvete Ursula Numeria et alii

Wonderful to see you in the forum again after so long. Didn't you and I
fight about turnips once? Maybe not.

The nerds are assembling, even as we speak. I don't know whether they'll
ever be able to standardize Latin, but the conversation is ongoing over on
<a href="mailto:Latinitas@--------" >Latinitas@--------</a> on what to translate first, how et cetera. Offering
Latin courses is also on the agenda. Perhaps you would consider getting
involved?

Valete

C Marius Merullus

bibliophilus honorarius ("honorary nerd")

>
>I think that Nova Roma should continue to educate its members and
>the public about the old Rome, and I would like to see us grow
>and continue to refine our government. I'd love to see some sort
>of Latin Academy set up to determine a standard Nova Roman Latin
>and to help direct people to resources for learning Latin. And,
>of course, I want to see the Religio remain as integral to Nova
>Roma as it was to Roma Antiqua.
>
>
>Ursula Numeria Fortunata
>--


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Announcement of Resignation
From:	"J.D. Porter" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=197233192165082194105056163101081165094048139046" >poeticfiend@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:13:49 GMT

Salve Dex,

I find it depressing when a cive leaves for any reason. Especially in this
instance. I would like to be included in your explaination list if you will.
You have brought much spirit to this organization with your presence.
Perhaps sometimes you could still visit the chatrooms or the Roman Outpost
"<a href="http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb787015" target="_top" >http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb787015</a> with several of the same
people who used to frequent the taverna.

-Gaius Tullius Triumphius Cicero (Cice)
-Senator, Praetor, Former fellow taverna patron

>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=114056131009152219130232203140129208071" >dexippus@--------</--------;
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] Announcement of Resignation
>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:40:24 EDT
>
>Omnes,
>
>I, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus, Paterfamilias of Gens Luciania and Augur of
>Nova Roma, do hereby offer my official notice of resignation from my duties
>as Augur and as a citizen of Nova Roma.
>
>Lest anyone assume that my decision to do so is based solely upon recent
>events within Nova Roma (most notably the current Gender Edicta and the
>continued allowed attacks by Michael Marconi against me and others on this
>list), let me assure you all that this has been a decision I have been
>tossing around for some time.
>
>For the past three years I have been a member of this organization and have
>seen good people leave Nova Roma for lesser reasons. There are numerous
>reasons for why I now have decided to resign and leave. I will not list
>them
>here. I am preparing an official statement that I will gladly e-mail to
>anyone interested once it is complete. If you wish to receive a copy,
>please
>e-mail me privately and I will add you to my distribution list when the
>statement is complete.
>
>Also do not assume that this decision has been made in haste. I have
>consulted with former members of Nova Roma, current members of Nova Roma,
>and
>my Gods regarding this decision. This is absolutely the best move for me
>at
>this time.
>
>Throughout my stay here in Nova Roma, I have been a "voice of reason" for
>some, a "jovial spirit" for others, and a "pain in the ass" for even others
>still. Whatever your personal opinions about me, they do not matter. What
>matters is that my personal happiness, well being, self respect, and
>personal
>DIGNITAS be upheld above all else.
>
>I have made some friends here in Nova Roma with whom I hope we can keep in
>touch. For Nova Roma does not make you Roman but only that which you feel
>in
>your heart. And recent events, if nothing else, have allowed some to show
>their true colors.
>
>I leave governship of Gens Luciania to Iustina Luciania Orbianna if she
>will
>have it. If not, I leave the governship of the Gens to Marius Lucianus
>Silvanus. If he will not have it, I have urged them both to seek out a
>Mater/Paterfamilias who will gladly adopt them into their own Gens if they
>decide to remain in Nova Roma.
>
>I do not regret this decision. I look forward to moving on with my
>personal
>and spiritual development along the path that the Ancient and Mighty Ones
>have set before me. For they have led me to Nova Roma and they are now
>leading me out and onto better things.
>
>I ask only to be removed from this e-Mail list and Lucius Cincinnatus'
>Augur
>List.
>
>Be well...and may the Gods lead you along your fated paths.
>
>Damianus Lucianus Dexippus
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>If you love your Mother...
>Click Here
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3653/4/_/61050/_/956810430/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3653/4/_/61050/_/956810430/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Why we resigned our Citizenship
From:	"Donald and Crystal Meaker" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:17:32 -0000

You may attack us as "unRoman" if you wish. I will NOT allow you to
insult my child, who is only 3.

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, "Antonio Grilo" amg@c... wrote:

> >Fortunately we refused! *I* knew there was no harm in the
Religio. I
> >had so much faith in the Religio that I chanced losing my CHILDREN
to
> >bring it to the fore.
> Again, you treat IUPPITER like JESUS CHRIST. IUPPITER demands
sacrifice, not
> FAITH. And if you want your childresn to be true Roman, do not
teach them
> YOUR FAITH. Instead let them read good BOOKS on Roman matters, not
magic,
> Wicca and other non-Roman things.
> > Iuno is not "Lady". Isis was, Mary was.
>

Pay attention dear. Terry calls the statue in our front yard "Lady
Juno". She is three years old. When we got the Statue, right after
Saturnalia, she was exactly 33 months old. She said (and I
quote) "Look at the Lady! Juno!" While I know you are childless, I
would like to think you are not so ignorant in the minds of children
that you would suppose I teach a child who has just gotten her
letters of the alphabet down to read much of anything. To listen to
you I should have flogged the child for getting it wrong.

> YES, they can be modernized under the guidelined defined by the
PONTIFICES!
>

So godlike these Pontifices!!! Good luck guys.

> The Pontifex Maximus tried to help you with advice. If you do not
agree with
> advice, simply do not follow it. Instead you think that every word
is
> proferred against your family. I don't understand you... We were
willing to
> accept you as Reges Sacrorum... You are very ungrateful.
>

Actually I never mentioned that, as it hadn't been formally
announced, but now that you have gone and mentioned it for
all ......... we HAD survived the vote from the College. The votes
were in but it hadn't been announced. We thought it would be better
to quit BEFORE it was announced and save some embarrasment. The
College may now elect Cassius and his wife to the position.

> Pax Deorum est nobiscum
>
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> Pontifex and god

Crys


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Why we resigned our Citizenship - REBUTAL
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:56:41 EDT

In a message dated 4/27/2000 11:03:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a> writes:
<< After another half dozen experiences with the lack of any true faith in
the gods by others, to include some of Nova Romas own Pontifexes (not ALL
of them, but enough to greatly disturb the gods), we decided to leave.
Juno has finally shown me the way to go. It is NOT the Politically
Correct Path Nova Roma has been on and will continue to be on. I need to
go back to living the Roman life I was living before I got involved with
this organization, where the gods will must be modernized so to be
non-offensive. In so many ways ancient Roma was as politically INcorrect
as to be open to all and the gods blessed it. The gods ARE open to
modernization. They are NOT open to PCBS. >>
REBUTTAL
Well, citizens, so speaks our former priestess to Iuno. Except she followed
Iuno
before she ever joined Nova Roma. She brought the devotion with her. We
attempted to accomidate her to give her structure. It was a match made for
both we felt. Iuno would have state worship and an attendent. And the
priestess would have closure.
But...things didn't work out. And I'm sorry for it. But to blame our hard
working
Pontifex Maximus for pissing the gods off is a little much. He controls the
state religion.
Now Texas law was very, shall we say, very non open to differences in culture.
What our Pontifex was attempting to do was to downplay the connection with
the gods rather making it a historical connection. Now the Texas courts love
historical connections (Can we all say "Remember the Alamo?") While she
claims this is the wrong strategy, how was he to know? I think it was a very
good strategy based on the facts that he had in his possession. For her to
call him using PCBS is I think a little much. Actually I had a selfish
reason for helping her besides the reason I felt it was the right thing to
do. I wanted to see a test case of Roman religion accepted in a court. And
a Texas court was ideal. What kind of test would we get in a Florida or
California court? I'm glad she prevailed. But I'd be just as interested if
she failed.
So if her path takes her from NR so be it. But I'm in contact with the same
gods as she is, and the message I get is while we are not perfect, we are
trying. And that is something that hasn't happened in a long time. So we
will keep trying.

Finally about "PCBS." This stands for political correct BS. I don't think
we are that Politically Correct. At least under my Consulship. However we
have given women equal rights. That, as many classical scholars tell me, is
so un Roman. But consider this. We give women in our Rome equality because
they are our equals.
And I'm sure if the women in the Roman times were as wealthy, educated, and
politically savvy as today's they would be equal as well. In fact during the
Iulian/Claudian Principate patrician women had their greatest freedom. All
it took was wealth and position.
We have no slaves. Well, either did early Rome. Slaves came as a byproduct
of military conquest, which in turn fed the ancient economic system. We
don't have an economic system, so even if slavery was accepted in the modern
world, we still wouldn't have any.
We are a little prudish when it comes to mentioning sex. (Most people are
still unsure what a Roman orgy is.) Well, maybe, but since this the Internet
and real censorship is a possibility at anytime, we here tend to error on the
side of caution. Sex on the Internet is huge subject that many nations are
attempting to solve. Wrongly in my opinion, but still we have to be ready
for any possibility.
So in closing I can't agree with the former priestess assertion. No, I don't
think NR is that PC. But I can see how someone might get that wrong
impression.

As for my hopes for Roma, (a separate thread) I want us to be a Via back to
the original. I want to fund research, I want recreate the political system
so others can experience it. I want to sponsor digs to further knowledge. I
want to give our old gods their due. They have only been waiting 1,609 years
for us to do so.
We are all in this together, and we will all get out of this what is put into
it. So citizens of NOVA ROMA, start putting forth. The rest will naturally
follow.
And I close by saying, Fortuna preserve our young republic. She has so far.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Hmmmmmm.......
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:04:45 EDT

In a message dated 4/27/2000 11:17:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=137028113185078198113149000077114253071048139" >Cy--------Rose@--------</--------; writes:

<< to the comment Audens made about me
getting "squashed", for some reason that really doesn't bother me.
>>
Except you read it wrongly. WE don't want to squash anybody! We don't have
that power anyway. All we wanted to say is things move slowly in NR due to
the checks and balances that are in place. If they were not, we wouldn't be
the republic. we'd be the principate.
Q. Fabius.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Law n' order
From:
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:17:54 -0700

The forwareded repost was from Tactius, sent in private to Dex....it was in
poor taste.

Sulla Felix
Censor

<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> wrote:

> In a message dated 4/27/00 12:32:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=210166080237038233015038190036129" >iadams@--------</a> writ--------/font>
>
> << Yes. That was intended as a reminder to Dex, who had re-posted a private
> email from me and then one from Festus. >>
>
> Dex didn't post any email from me. We did not exchange any email at all.
>
> Festus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956853648/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3555/4/_/61050/_/956853648/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Attn. Philosophically minded people
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:23:45 EDT

You may be interested in a web site co-founded by the modern Aristotlean
philospher, Mortimer J. Adler.

Adler is the Editor in Chief of the Great Books of the Western World, Senior
Editor of the Encyclopedia Brittanica, and founder of the Center for
Philosophical Research. His philosophy derives from Aristotle, and he is the
author of numerous books such as ARISTOTLE FOR EVERYBODY, which I have read
and recommend.

He and Max Weismann have founded the Center for the Study of the Great Ideas,
which you can visit at www.thegreatideas.org. Be advised---it is a
membership fee driven club.
But I enjoy reading Adler's articles.

Adler also has a new book out now---How To Think About The Great Ideas.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Re: Report of the Meeting in California
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:27:12 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete, Citizens;

Helena Cornelia Ovidia Equitia, Propraetrix of California has asked me
to comment onlist regarding her report of the NR Meeting in Southern
California.

I am most flattered by the ladie's attention and desire for my views.
Helena begins her review by stating that "the meeting here in Southern
California was a smashing success!"------

---MMA--- I should say it was! Helena lists 8 Nova Romans in
attendance which included a Senior Consul, Censor and a Propraetrix. A
noble group indeed! Just from the list of names provided, I can already
envision great things occurring.

"We partook of fine Italian cuisine and fine conversation"-----

---MMA--- Wnen we met last year in the Nova Britannia Province, we also
opted for Italian Cuisine and our converation was quite enjoyable and
witty. Very nice to be with people of like interests and ideas. I was
struck at the time how reasonable these people are, and how polite and
considrate of each other when in company. I'm sure that from Helena's
enthusasm we can infer the very same enjoyment at the California
Meeting!

"Consul Fabius also took some pictures"-----

---MMA--- I do not remember that anyone took a great deal of photos at
our NB meeting. I did not think of it, and I believe someone else
forgot their camera. That was unfortunate. If I am out here,I would
welcome a correction, but I don't believe I recall any photos of that
meeting.

"Among the items discussed: Consul Fabius' ideas and ongoing research
on taxation,"------

---MMA--- I am supremely sorry that I could not attend. I find Consul
Fabius' ideas very often quite enlightening and his research usually
very well found. Perhaps, when he has finished his research work, he
will share his findings on line.

"Sulla's ideas for the Censorship and database,"---

---MMA--- Again I am sorry that I misssed his discssion. Sulla's ideas
are always interesting, and although we have not always agreed on all
things, I find his mind to be a quick one, and his ideas well-worth
consideration.

"my ideas for California"-----

---MMA--- I have always been of the persuation that all the Provincial
Govemors should get together and pool their ideas. The pooling of
ideas, must give rise to the "piggy-backing" of ideas and that leading
new ideas and opportunities for all. I am pleased to see that Helena is
generating new ideas for her Province, and I would strongly urge that
she and the other Provincial offcials share such ideas for a better
determination of provincial input to Nova Roma.

"Our new citizens asked many questions covering all aspects of NR past
and present."-----

---MMA--- Enthusiasm among the newer members of any organization is
always measured by the amount and kinds of questions asked. Even more
so in a situation where we are not often together in face-to-face
situations. Questions and answers generate new ideas, which in turn
generate new methodologies. I salute you for the interest that you have
generated in your new members.

"We also talked about the current election, the Religio, and our own
personal lives."-------

---MMA--- An impressive agenda! In our meeting in the NE there were
some items of administrative consequence that had to be dealt with, and
so our time for discussion of the larger issues was somewhat curtailed.
I think that you got the best of both worlds, for it is necessary in my
view to discuss these topics openly among each other without some one
individual dominating the discussion or shading it with his / her
imagined superiority. Again well done!

"Fabius (and maybe I) plans to attend the gens Troica's upcomig
gladiator match."--------

---MMA--- That should be a lot of fun for you, best of luck!!!

"We are looking forward to the next meeting which will take place in
August."------

---MMA--- That is great. We had tenatively planned some future
meetings, but the planns were changed due to some personal things which
got in the way. Most of us, are involved in additional activities which
are difficult sometimes to plan around. I hope you have better luck,
and all the best in the future. I was just thinking during my trip back
home last week, how things had changed since I left the SW. Were I
there today, I should have been a part of your festvities and definately
an actve member of the IXth Legio Hispana in San Diego where I lived for
ten years. Oh well, one must go where the opportunities are, and as a
retired "squid" and with some understanding of submarie technology, the
best place for me was where they are built!!!!!

Again thank you Helena for this opportunity and for the meetig report.

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Attempting to bring some cheer.
From:	"Kyrene" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=200028091056078198015242190036129" &--------yrene@--------</a&--------/td>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:26:58 -0400

Salvete all...

----- Original Message -----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061044104089235135169082190036" >sfp55@--------</--------;
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Attempting to bring some cheer.

> << but I'm getting really tired of
> the late happenings going on in this list. >>
> Salvete all.
> While I am sorry people are getting tired of these "goings on" I will
remind
> you that you are watching the functions of a living, breathing government
of
> a micro nation. Because of the fact we only have one forum everyone sees
NR
> function under a microscope.
> So. We are doing the best that we can with the hand we were dealt with.
> Please remember that.
> Thank you.
> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus.

Agreed. And we can't please everyone all the time, either. I'm just happy
that we've held out this long, this well, with so many, many conflicting
opinions and different people.

Valete et xairete,

Andrea Gladia Kyrinia
Sacerdos Apollonis

-=* Kyrene Ariadne/Andrea Gladia Kyrinia *=-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-=* <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1527" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1527</a> *=-
-=* ~The Tholos~ *=-
-=* ICQ:6663573 Yahoo:KyreneAriadne AIM:KyreneAriadne *=-


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Hmmmmmm.......
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:53:13 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Cayenne Rose;

I seemed to have used a faulty sentence structure in my note to you. My
meaning was not the personal "you" but the impersonal "you."
I was attempting to say that review and consideration are necessary in
all problems in a situation where full freedom of speech is allowed, and
where the variety of people and ideas are varied and in large number.

My sincerest apologies for my clumsy wordage. My last intention in this
world was to appear in any format to threaten or to dominate. I believe
that the remainder of my message bears out that intent.

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!