Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: [ The Gender Edictum
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germa--------s" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=123056091213158116036102228219114090071048139" >germa--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 12 May 2000 20:33:58 -0400

Salve,

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Ma--------r <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=174176211056207031025158175026172165098048139046" >MikeMa--------r@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 5:35 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: [ The Gender Edictum

> Salvete omnes,
>
> Judges must act according to statutes, not according to precedents
>
> Sulla's Edict is an excellent example why this is so. Statutes have to be
> properly debated before they are brought into force. Precedents sneak in
by
> the back door and assert that because they are "already decided" there is
> no scope for (democratic, republican) debate.

I would point out that Sulla was here not acting as a judge, but as a
magistrate. As a member of the executive (as opposed to judicial) branch of
government, under paragraph IV.A.1.a. of our Constitution, he has the
authority to issue such edicta to get his job done. Legislation regarding
the issue had never been enacted, and so he stepped in to fill the gap, just
like he's supposed to. Your or my personal opinion of his decision is
irrelevant, but I do think he was very wise to uphold the decision of his
predecessors (of which I was one).

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Senator, Proconsul, et Augur


Subject:	Re: [ The Gender Edictum
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 12 May 2000 22:33:28 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete...

Scripsit Scaevola Magister Tribuni Plebis:
>> Statutes have to be properly debated before they are brought into
>> force. Precedents sneak in by the back door and assert that because
>> they are "already decided" there is no scope for (democratic,
>> republican) debate.

Respondit Vedius Germanicus Senator et Consularis:
> Legislation regarding the issue had never been enacted, and so he
> [Cornelius Sulla Censor] stepped in to fill the gap, just like he's
> supposed to. Your or my personal opinion of his decision is
> irrelevant, but I do think he was very wise to uphold the decision of
> his predecessors (of which I was one).

Let's talk a little bit about this "precedent".

The manner in which I was listed on the rolls was of no consequence
whatsoever to me until the first time I had to take an Oath of Office.
Then suddenly it mattered very much; I was being asked to swear an
oath in the presence of the Gods of Rome, an oath I had to be able to
mean every word of...under the name of some *stranger*, the product of
a moment's hesitation in the application process. It was then that I
began asking the Censores past and present about taking the Oath as
Lucius Marius; and when my official listing as 'Lucia Maria' turned out
to be the stumbling-block, I requested that said official listing be
changed. It was never intended to escalate into a 'gender issue'; for
me it was, from first to last, a simple request for correction of
records--which makes all the magisterial gandy-dancing that has
followed even more baffling than it should have been.

Then-Consul Sulla and I approached the then-Censores, Vedius Germanicus
and Iunius Palladius, about making the correction. Sulla e-mailed them
both, requesting their input on the matter; he also communicated with
Palladius via IM, while we both had a conversation with Germanicus on
the subject in the Forum Chat. Germanicus was, shall we say, much less
than enthused, even (especially?) after I shared with him my deeper
reasons for the request in a discussion that was excruciatingly
humiliating for me in its necessity, and not made any less so by the
reaction I got...or by the untimely arrival of another one of our
former-Citizen gadflies in mid-presentation. I couldn't tell if the
Censor was more shocked, more outraged, or laughing too hard to care;
but there was no mistaking that the idea and my justifications for it
had not been well-received. Sulla's query to Palladius fared no
better.

This chat-room conversation is what Sulla Censor is citing as a
"precedent". I thought I was just consulting the Censores to get their
input on the matter; I was not aware that any Final Decisions of
Official Standing had been arrived at. I received no notification that
Germanicus' or Palladius' portions of the discussion had any more
binding force or legal standing than any other chatroom discussion or
coffeehouse debate. I saw no private e-mail notification, nothing
posted in the Tabularium, no report by the Tribune of the Plebs. As
far as I was concerned, that chat session had about the same
'officialdom rating' as my award the previous year of a 'Corona
Siliconis' for my actions in the Chat Wars.

But now it's an official ruling. Now it's a precedent. And when I
expressed my dismay at this sudden immortalizing of the ephemeral, of a
thing for which *there is no written record whatsoever*, I was asked (I
won't say by whom; it's not the identity that counts, it's the
attitude): "Well, how much more notification did you expect?!? --Would
you have preferred an engraved invitation??"

For the record, I agree wholeheartedly with the recommendation made by
some of our more sensitive and sensible Cives that the making of such a
policy as Sulla's edict ought to have been a matter of public
discourse, debated by either the Senate or the People of Nova Roma.
For one who hails himself as a defender of Republican tradition,
Cornelius Sulla went about this in a very non-Republican manner. Sure,
he's got the power to issue edicta in the exercise of his office--but
was this particular edictum even necessary? How much respect would
Nova Roma have lost in the outside world if I had been listed
officially (as well as everywhere else) as Lucius Marius
Fimbria...versus how much of Her respectability, energy, and unity of
purpose have been sacrificed to the high-handedness of a magistrate who
makes law simply because he's discovered that now he can?

Sulla's edict flies in the face of what the Founders had in mind when
they incorporated the nondiscrimination clause into the
Constitution--never mind that one of the Founders supports the edict.
He is entitled to his opinion, and I do not respect him any less for
all that it differs so much from mine. However, that the decision of
*one* official about *one* Citizen was permitted to stand on such shaky
ground as this "precedent"--and then further allowed to be promulgated
as an edict--does not speak highly for our faithfulness to the Roman
legal and administrative tradition, least of all in spirit.

In fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'


Subject:	Re: The Gender Edictum (My findings)
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 12 May 2000 23:28:32 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete iterum...

As some of you who have been following this issue may recall, I was
given a bit of a 'homework assignment' by Sulla Censor, the successful
completion of which would cause him to modify his edict in a way that
would no longer bar people in my situation from applying for
Citizenship under the Roman name and gender of their choice.

I quote him in full:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Sulla: I think I should comment on this considering it keeps coming
> up. If you folks read Marius's Roman Outpost message board you will
> see that Marius and I have been going around this topic for a while.
> I have told her my reasoning and I have even given her a back door to
> refine the Edictum. She says she has 6 years of Constitutional Law
> Research. So she is researching various macronational laws regarding
> the recognition of Trans-gendered individuals. As I have told her
> over lengthy discussions my research did not cater to people of
> transgendered Genders. I told her that if she wants the Edicta
> changed, then she needs to justify that other macronations recognize
> those differences becuase Nova Roma will eventually become a
> macronation and therefore, in an effort for continued respectability
> and conformity with those macronations we will follow their example.
> I have even made it easy for her. By asking for 1 example of a
> macronation. My Edictum was established as precedent by the previous
> Censors, as I have noted in my Edictum. And, until proof is offered
> otherwise, it stands.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor

I am pleased to report that my research is now complete. Cornelius
Sulla was informed of the general nature of my material before his
surgery, and a couple of days ago I sent a summary of my findings to
Consul Quintus Fabius Maximus, who has expressed an interest in
receiving the hard copy for possible consideration by the Senate. I
hereby publish the summary in this forum:

"I was asked to find and document one example of a macronation
that recognizes the declared gender and civil status of a 'trans'
individual. I have done this in spades; the European Court of
Justice decided this issue just last April/May for the entire
European Commonwealth, and every nation in the European Union
is now having to change its anti-sex discrimination laws to follow
suit.

"To summarize:
-- Laws that prohibit discrimination 'on grounds of sex'/'on
the basis of gender' are held to apply to discrimination on the
basis of an individual undergoing/having undergone gender reassignment;
-- Gender reassignment is defined as 'a process undertaken under
medical supervision for the purpose of reassigning a person's
sex by changing physiological *or other* characteristics of sex,
and includes *any part* of such a process' [emphases mine];
-- There is no 'time limit' as to how long a person may live
as the opposite gender before undergoing surgery, and no requirement
that they undergo surgery in order to be considered trans for
purposes of the law;
-- As far as member States of the European Community are concerned,
the laws of Sweden, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands all authorized
trans people to correct their records of civil identity to reflect
their new gender identity even before the Court decision, and
since then Britain and the other nations of the EC have been
modifying their laws to follow suit.

"There is also recent research suggesting that the trans condition
itself may be at least partially due to biological factors; as
the 'center of identity' in the brain develops in the womb
independently of the reproductive organs, it is entirely possible for
the two not to match up. So much for 'biological gender' being the
determining factor for purposes of the edict...which portion of the
biology do we go with--the body or the brain?

"This is, as stated above, a summary of my findings. What I actually
have is roughly 40 pages of hard copy that I will need to either
mail or Fax to the appropriate officials. I'm not sure when
Sulla's surgery is; I'm still waiting for him to tell me if he
wants it mailed or Faxed; but in his absence I could certainly
send copies to one or more of you. (This is being Cc'd to Cassius,
as my Patron; and Merullus, as the other Censor and as my
Paterfamilias.)

"Let me know how, and by when, and to whom, I need to forward
my documentation. I think having the Senate consider it is a
very good idea; personally I think Sulla should have submitted
the thing to a vote of the People--then these last few weeks'
public debate on the subject would have at least been to some
purpose."

If any other Magistrates, Citizens or prospective Citizens would like
copies of my source documents, please reply privately and include your
snail-mail address. (Consul Fabi, that goes for you too--I can't
afford to Fax the whole bundle, and nothing in it is "filler".)
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=180056219163082131036067066024166165018048139046" &g--------ckifiknow@--------&l--------&g--------td>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: "Gladiator" Movie (Was: Im passant)
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 07:21:12 +0200

Salve,

<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> wrote:

> remember that the movie FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE and the miniseries A.D. both
> had excellent replicas of the forum. Complete even with the conical altar in
> front of the Temple of the Deified Julius!
>
>

Sorry to ask but what were these movies about, when were they done?
I never heard about them in Germany.
thanks a lot

Vale
Lucius Metellus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The communication problem
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 06:52:24 +0100

Salutem!

I would like to add my dupondius' worth to this thread, and to the many
sensible things that have already been said, especually this post of I.
Querius Armoricus Lutecio's below.

I am slow to learn many things, and for me one of the hardest things is to
remember that it is unrealistic to judge others by one's own standards. You
can believe someone's actions or words to be below your own standards, and
you may be right, but you can't expect them to see it that way. I have
encountered many people I thought offensive, and that judgement remains true
for me, but it occurs to me after many years of reflection that such people
may have been doing their best according to their own standards, and have
not intended offence.

There is a certain kind of ridiculous self-centredness about assuming that
people one finds offensive are deliberately making an effort to insult one.
Why is one so important that they should bother?

By 'ridiculous', I mean laughable. I think there is much about humans that
is, intrinsically, laughable. Our sense of self-importance is not the least
of these traits. I believe that this is one reason why the gods laugh. We
should laugh more than we do. Too much seriousness can be very dangerous.

To me, the virtue of Urbanitas means an ability to get along with all the
different kinds of folk, and their different behavioural standards, that you
can't avoid meeting in an urbs (town). Urban civilization, and with it Nova
Roma, cannot exist without this quality. This doesn't mean you have to go
around being pleasant to people you dislike - it means simply that you must
refrain from duelling to the death every time a different value-judgement
from your own has touched your own precious sense of honour. Or, if you
really must duel to the death, do it in private, not in the Forum.

This does not (in my opinion) preclude criticism of others, or even
ridicule, if you think they deserve it. But we should remember that this is
not imperial Rome, not the centre of the known world, and there are plenty
of other places for folk to go to when they find that being here is
insupportable. To my mind, Nova Roma resembles the infant Rome of its
founder - a small, heterogeneous community that on many occasions nearly
didn't survive the conflicts that arose. At our stage of micronational
development, every citizen who feels constrained to leave is a serious loss
(the ones we don't need always seem to have to be ejected against their
will). So I'll conclude with this: every tiome a citizen leaves in disgust,
whether you think it justified or not, ask yourself whether you may have
been partly responsible, and if so, modify your behaviour so that it won't
happen again.

Whether you like them or not is irrelevant to the well-being of the
Respublica.

Valete bene in urbe Nova Romae,

Vado.

----- Original Message -----
From: yquere &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 1:22 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] The communication problem

> Salvete Omnes
>
> I do agree with what Marcus Cornelius Scriptor said at one hundred
percents.
> I think that neither NR, neither this mailing list is aimed at proving
that
> one culture is better than another. Most of us recognize themselves in the
> Roman Virtues, that's the only thing that counts in my views.
> As members of a worldwide and multicultural community, such as NR, we
should
> be able to contain and transcend our basic cultural differences. These
> differences exist, none can denies it. But we are grown ups, aren't we ? I
> think we should all accept these differences and admit that each one can
> have one's own interpretation of life, of culture and even Roman way of
life
> for instance. In my opinion behaving this way could be a good way of
> defining CIVILIZATION.
>
> If you think of the ancient roman culture, Romans were integrating every
new
> culture without difficulties as soon as the newcomers were respecting
basic
> roman rules (which are the equivalent of the basic rules in NR). The
> arguments we beheld on the mailing list during the last few days was
> absolutely "un-roman" at all, according to me. I must admit I was
surprised
> and disappointed.
>
> For example, one of the first problem that arose with the christians in
the
> ancient Rome, was that they do not accept to integrate the roman religio,
> whereas the romans were quite ready to integrate Yavhe into the pantheon ?
> That led to persecutions and systematic misunderstanding. If we really
want
> to defend Roman Virtues, let us not make the same mistakes again !
>
> I heard some of us saying they had ambiguous feeling about the US, or
> France, or wherever. OK ! and what's the point ? Is it an efficient way of
> sharing experiences and knowledge ? I don't think so. Having ambiguous
> feeling about another culture seams simply affirming a certain feeling of
> being the only one who's right, isn't it ? Very tolerent views indeed !!!
> Every culture has is good and bad sides in the eyes of a stranger, but is
it
> because we're different that we have the right to judge the other as a
> lesser barbarian ? Maybe we should ask ourselves that if we're not able to
> understand and to accept the others then we are the barbarians ! I
> personnaly am quite fed up with all these arguments, sincerely.
>
> Sorry, I've been getting angry. That's all I had to say.
>
> Valete Omnes
> I. Querius Armoricus Lutecio
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Maurice Lefebvre <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=219233091185056153036168000126229241039102131192183239161126172205142" >cornelius_scriptor@--------</a>
> To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:11 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] The communication problem
>
>
> > Salvete,
> >
> > The problem we have in this list is not a language or cultural
> problem.
> > The problem is that many people here just "know they are right". When
two
> > (or more) of theses people start arguing, they rapidly anchor themselves
> in
> > their opinion and try to convince the other. What is a fanatic? Someone
> who
> > won't change is opinion, and won't change the subject.
> > Another facet of this problem, is the "cultural attitude". It's not
a
> > culture problem, it's an attitude problem. Most of the time, very
> > innocently, someone will make remarks that can sound real bad to others.
> An
> > example? Many remarks sound like the U.S. (or now English-speaking
> > countries, or even the western civilization)) are in the body of
> everything
> > and all the others just appendages. I know it's not what was meant! But
> > please admit it does sound like that sometimes.
> > Personnaly i'm not angry with that. I live in Qu�bec (in Canada), I
> > speak French, I travel a lot, work with people from many very different
> > cultures, and I live close enough to the Americans not to be bothered
> > anymore. I'm not attacking anyone, I just want everyone who read the
post
> > not to be bothered too much by theses attitudes (I used Americans as an
> > example, I could have taken anyone). And i'm talking to everyone whoever
> > might you be, wherever might you be from.
> > Everyone think from the position of his own's culture, we can't
change
> > that, and it's a very good thing. Global communication is very recent,
so
> > most of the people here didn't grew up in a REAL planet-wide
multicultural
> > background. We all must understand that. I had the chance to travel a
lot,
> > to live in many different cultures (and I mean LIVE), even so, I still
> make
> > comparisons.
> >
> > So the problem is not related to language, or directly related to
> > culture. It's just an attitude problem, even when no harm is meant. In a
> > post, or in any discussion, before answering to something you don't
agree
> > with, ask yourself: If I say (that), will he finally see the truth? If
> your
> > answer is "yes", just shut up. And adding IMHO (in my humble opinion)
> won't
> > change anything. I'm not saying we shouldn't have opinions, but we
> shouldn't
> > start with the idea that we have "the right one".
> > And if you don't think you're concerned with what I just said, maybe
> > you're the person who's the more concerned.
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Marcus Cornelius Scriptor
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Bids starting at $7 for thousands of products - uBid.com
> > <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3027/6/_/61050/_/957982015/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3027/6/_/61050/_/957982015/</a>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>


Subject:	PIXIE, T. Valerius, Edictum
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=014130014161146028033082190" >bvm3@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 07:59:52 +0200

Salvete Omnes!

Here is another site for those interested in Latin-based
interlanguages:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2948/index2.html" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2948/index2.html</a>

It is the site for Latino sine Flexione (Latin without
Inflexions). Uninflected Latin was the invention of the
famous mathematician Giuseppe Peano, who took quite an
interested in the scholarly language problem. If you know
Latin, you can already read it. Because it is just a very
simplified Latin, regular Latin dictionaries can be used
with it. There is a history of the interlanguage
(International Auxiliary Language) movement here in LSF. But
even if that doen't interest you, do check out the 51k of
LATIN SAYINGS (in real Latinum) with English translations
and explanations. It at the foot of the home page. A very
good collection.

--------------------------------------
PIXIE, Salve!

Welcome to Nova Roma. As a temporary Triumvir of the nascent
Sodalitas Latinitatis, may I invite you also to our Nova
Roma Latinitas list? We are at <a href="mailto:LATINITAS@--------" >LATINITAS@--------</a>, and we
love Latinists there, where we can put them to work for Nova
Roma. You can sign up on your eGroups page. If you hurry,
you can be a founding member!
(Et ego amator operum Roberti Ansoni Heinlein sum!)

----------------------------------------------
Salve O Marce Troiane Valeri!

I once almost found myself studying Buddhist philosophy in
Madison, Visconsonia. (but wound up at the University of
Hawai'i). Welcome to Nova Roma!

-----------------------------------------------
Salve Helena!

I have prayed and made offering to Apollo the Healer for
the wellbeing and rapid recovery of Lucius Cornelius. We
wish him well.

-----------------------------------------------
Salve M. Muci Scaevola Magister!

JUDICANDUM EST LEGIBUS, NON EXEMPLIS

All well and good, but it is my understanding that in Roma
Antiqua praetors and any magistrates having to set forth an
edictum at the beginning of their terms of office borrowed
very freely indeed from their predecessors. That is not
"precedent" in the Common Law sense, but is in fact a form
of legislation within the competence of the magistrate.

And I suppose we do not have a lex on this exact issue, so
it would be difficult to judge on the basis of that
non-existent law. On the other hand, the magistrate does, as
it were, bind himself by his own quasi-legislation when it
comes to judging later. So, he is *judging* by the law, and
the fact that he chooses to *legislate* by precedent is
another matter, and in effect in the Roman context just
means that he wants the legal system to remain stable.
(Otherwise in the case of praetors it would change every
year in many very important particulars.)

And as for democracy, I do suppose that we can judge to some
extent what kind of magistrates we are electing, and
sometimes I am sure they may even put before the electorate
some salient points about their future edicta. That is quite
a bit of democratic input, it seems to me.

I hate to tear down your arguments, inasmuch as I do not
think the Gender Edictum the best solution to the problem
for Nova Roma. I think that NR should always be willing to
recognise the civil identity (including gender) that a
person has on his passport or driver's licence, whatever the
momentary form of said citizen-applicant's body. That would
protect NR from over-enthusiastic r�le players, as Sulla
rightly wished to do, while letting everyone here enjoy the
same civil rights they enjoy in their country of origin,
surely a good thing. And such a refinement of the Edictum
might make possible reconciliation with some good Romans who
left.

But Sulla has other problems at the moment, and it might be
better to wait for him to return before discussing this
further. I have observed that the report on macronational
legal policy is now available at the Roman Outpost, and that
will be confronting him too when he gets back. That document
establishes that European law is overwhelmingly supportive
of transsexuals' rights to gender self-determination in ways
not consistent with the Edictum. However, it may be that in
some U.S. states or in Arabic, South American or Far Eastern
countries the law is not so liberal as in Europe, and if NR
policy reflected only the EU position for everyone, that
could mean that we would have discrepencies between
public/civil identity at home and NR identity for
transsexuals, which does not strike me as being completely
desirable. Therefore, I urge simple recognition of
established civil gender status at home to be the best
policy for Nova Roma.

M. Apollonius Formosanus
Silesia, Polonia
---------------------------------------
ICQ# 61698049
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] So leave already. {Meakers}
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 07:02:08 +0100

Salutem iterum! Quaerit M. Minucius Audens:
> Yes Festus, I understand your frustration, but I ask that you try to
> see, at least Mrs. Meaker, as she was in the days before her marriage.
> She was as sweet and loving a person as you will wish to meet. I wonder
> what happened????????

- I believe I can answer this from my own experience of an unfortunate first
marriage and its results, together with those of a second marriage to
another divorcee (typically Roman, isn't it? (:-)).
Post-divorce wranglings with a venomous ex-spouse can leave one so badly
bruised that one's entire person is tender for months, if not years,
afterwards. Crys has my sympathy and understanding, and therefore a deal of
forbearance for some of the hard things she has said.
Some of us don't have that excuse.

Pace omnibus,

Vado.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Sulla's Condition (Day 2)
From:	"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 08:27:40 +0200

Salve,

Good news
May you wish Sulla a quick recovery.
Thoughts from across the Oceanus Atlanticus might help, so I send all my
best wishes of recovery from Gallia.

Vale
Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Pater Familias of gens Queria

----- Original Message -----
Fro--------elena <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=165158192237078153036181001245114223071048139" >oceanlilly@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Cc: <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=061056234237175198015158190036129" >se--------@--------</a>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 1:33 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Sulla's Condition (Day 2)

> Salvete.
>
> I am happy to report Sulla's improving condition and recovery!
> He was moved out of the "Special Care Unit" today and placed
> in a regular hospital room. His pain is lessening but he is
> still very, very weak and tired. However, he was quite lucid
> today and was able to converse. (He was able to speak on the
> phone to his mother for a few minutes.)
>
> Will post again tomorrow...
>
> -Helena
> ______________________________________________
> FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
> Sign up at <a href="http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup" target="_top" >http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup</a>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Get answers for the stuff you don't. And get $10 to spend on the site!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/2200/6/_/61050/_/958174390/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/2200/6/_/61050/_/958174390/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Announcement
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 07:35:30 +0100

Quinto Fabio Maximo salutem. Dicisti:

> << Sulla
> has lately been very briskly striking cives off the rolls, even quicker
than
> the edicta he issues which provoke such resignations. >>
> Salve!
> No, he has not. He only removed citizens after they requested it twice.
> As consul I wrote many of these citizens requesting them to stay.
> Their reasons for leaving were varied. And after they requested twice to
be
> removed, only then did he do so.
> Be sure of your facts.

- respondeo: Consul, I can only speak as I find, and I apologise if I was
mistaken. However,. Sulla appeared to be making deletions off the Album
Civium very briskly, and you know as well as I do that in three cases at
least - those of Fimbria, Dexippus and Diana Aventina - the last straw
causing their resignation was that infamous edictum which shames us all. And
the last post Sulla made with regard to Alexander I. C. Probus' resignation
signed off with a 'hehehe'. What on earth are we to make of that?

>This is one of the problems with the list. Think
> before you post.

- I do. Perhaps not always for long enough, but I DO think before posting.
And what I think lately, is that something is rotten in the Censorial
office. From my perspective, which I admit is less well-informed than yours
as Consul and as Sulla's close friend, what I posted about appeared to me to
be factual. I'm afraid it still does. I sincerely hope, though, that you
will be able to convince me, and those fellow-citizens, past and actual, who
share my concerns, that it is not so.

> The first part of your post was helpful, and no doubt the
> Senate will take it under advisement. The second part was not helpful at
> all.

- Here, Consul, we are exchanging opinions, and not facts.

Respecte,

Vado.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Announcement
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 02:58:36 EDT

In a message dated 5/12/2000 11:40:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123056234112159192112061175246231253136100139046209" >gens_moravia@--------</a> writes:

<< Dexippus and Diana Aventina >>
Salve!
I asked both these individuals to stay. I received a two page private e-mail
from one and two lines another. Since they are private e-mails the reasons
remain private. You know why Aventina left, Vado. Lucius Cornelius removed
both people from the rolls after it determined neither wanted to stay. He
did not just remove them on their initial say so.
>>And what I think lately, is that something is rotten in the Censorial
office.<<
If you are going to accuse the Censor of doing something, you must have
proof, and you must take your accusations to the Praetor Urbanii. But
exactly what the did the censor do except publish an Edicta that wasn't to
your liking? You have never liked Lucius Cornelius Sulla, you made that very
clear in your previous posts.
I think waiting to attack anyone when they can't defend themselves is not
very Roman. And it adds nothing to your Dignatis.
Vale
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Gender Edictum (My findings)
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 08:06:16 +0100

Salvete Quiriti!

Ahh, FACTS! The all-too-frequent-absence of such as these from the Main List
is indeed a problem, estne, O Quinte Fabi?

Who was it wrote: VERITAS TEMPORIS FILIA ?

Bene valete,

Vado.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 5:28 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The Gender Edictum (My findings)

> Salvete iterum...
>
> As some of you who have been following this issue may recall, I was
> given a bit of a 'homework assignment' by Sulla Censor, the successful
> completion of which would cause him to modify his edict in a way that
> would no longer bar people in my situation from applying for
> Citizenship under the Roman name and gender of their choice.
>
> I quote him in full:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Sulla: I think I should comment on this considering it keeps coming
> > up. If you folks read Marius's Roman Outpost message board you will
> > see that Marius and I have been going around this topic for a while.
> > I have told her my reasoning and I have even given her a back door to
> > refine the Edictum. She says she has 6 years of Constitutional Law
> > Research. So she is researching various macronational laws regarding
> > the recognition of Trans-gendered individuals. As I have told her
> > over lengthy discussions my research did not cater to people of
> > transgendered Genders. I told her that if she wants the Edicta
> > changed, then she needs to justify that other macronations recognize
> > those differences becuase Nova Roma will eventually become a
> > macronation and therefore, in an effort for continued respectability
> > and conformity with those macronations we will follow their example.
> > I have even made it easy for her. By asking for 1 example of a
> > macronation. My Edictum was established as precedent by the previous
> > Censors, as I have noted in my Edictum. And, until proof is offered
> > otherwise, it stands.
> >
> >Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >Censor
>
> I am pleased to report that my research is now complete. Cornelius
> Sulla was informed of the general nature of my material before his
> surgery, and a couple of days ago I sent a summary of my findings to
> Consul Quintus Fabius Maximus, who has expressed an interest in
> receiving the hard copy for possible consideration by the Senate. I
> hereby publish the summary in this forum:
>
> "I was asked to find and document one example of a macronation
> that recognizes the declared gender and civil status of a 'trans'
> individual. I have done this in spades; the European Court of
> Justice decided this issue just last April/May for the entire
> European Commonwealth, and every nation in the European Union
> is now having to change its anti-sex discrimination laws to follow
> suit.
>
> "To summarize:
> -- Laws that prohibit discrimination 'on grounds of sex'/'on
> the basis of gender' are held to apply to discrimination on the
> basis of an individual undergoing/having undergone gender reassignment;
> -- Gender reassignment is defined as 'a process undertaken under
> medical supervision for the purpose of reassigning a person's
> sex by changing physiological *or other* characteristics of sex,
> and includes *any part* of such a process' [emphases mine];
> -- There is no 'time limit' as to how long a person may live
> as the opposite gender before undergoing surgery, and no requirement
> that they undergo surgery in order to be considered trans for
> purposes of the law;
> -- As far as member States of the European Community are concerned,
> the laws of Sweden, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands all authorized
> trans people to correct their records of civil identity to reflect
> their new gender identity even before the Court decision, and
> since then Britain and the other nations of the EC have been
> modifying their laws to follow suit.
>
> "There is also recent research suggesting that the trans condition
> itself may be at least partially due to biological factors; as
> the 'center of identity' in the brain develops in the womb
> independently of the reproductive organs, it is entirely possible for
> the two not to match up. So much for 'biological gender' being the
> determining factor for purposes of the edict...which portion of the
> biology do we go with--the body or the brain?
>
> "This is, as stated above, a summary of my findings. What I actually
> have is roughly 40 pages of hard copy that I will need to either
> mail or Fax to the appropriate officials. I'm not sure when
> Sulla's surgery is; I'm still waiting for him to tell me if he
> wants it mailed or Faxed; but in his absence I could certainly
> send copies to one or more of you. (This is being Cc'd to Cassius,
> as my Patron; and Merullus, as the other Censor and as my
> Paterfamilias.)
>
> "Let me know how, and by when, and to whom, I need to forward
> my documentation. I think having the Senate consider it is a
> very good idea; personally I think Sulla should have submitted
> the thing to a vote of the People--then these last few weeks'
> public debate on the subject would have at least been to some
> purpose."
>
> If any other Magistrates, Citizens or prospective Citizens would like
> copies of my source documents, please reply privately and include your
> snail-mail address. (Consul Fabi, that goes for you too--I can't
> afford to Fax the whole bundle, and nothing in it is "filler".)
> ***********************************************************
> Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
> <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
> Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
> Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
> and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
> 'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
> bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
> *somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4011/6/_/61050/_/958192114/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4011/6/_/61050/_/958192114/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


Subject:	ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem III Idus Mai (May 13th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 10:27:27 +0100

Salvete

This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action or
public business can take place.

Today is the third and last day of the Lemuria in honour of the Lemures. The
Lemures are the ghosts of wicked people or of those who did not receive the
proper rites after death. These are not received by the Gods of the
Underworld and as such are condemned to roam and to haunt the living. Today
they come to
take from the living what his theirs by right.
The Lemuria are held on 3 consecutive odd numbered days: 9, 11 and 13 May.
It's rites are performed at home by the paterfamilias (family father). At
night, the paterfamilias gets up from bed and walks barefoot through the
house, making the "mano fico" gesture. He washes his hands with water
brought from a spring. He takes some black beans. He throws nine beans over
his shoulder without looking back, while saying for each bean: "Through
these beans I expiate myself and my family". He then performs a new ablution
washing the hands. He then asks the ghosts to go away by saying nine times:
"Manes of our ancestors, leave!". After this he looks back and the Lemures
are surely gone, for the rites were correctly accomplished and the dead have
taken what is their right.
Some say that those black beans are offered in place of real human lives,
offered by our ancestors in remote times. In fact, some Greek theologoi such
as the Pytagorean and the Orphic say that beans are charged with life.

The Vestals are preparing the mola salsa since May 7th and this will
continue until May 14th (tomorrow).

I remind you that Maius is the month of the old and the dead. Maia, the
Lares and the Manes and their mother (Mater Larum) are specially honoured.

Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex


Subject:	Tin & other metals in Antiquity
From:	"M G" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230212192112185190015225190036129" >--------co@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 15:37:32 +0300

I found on <a href="mailto:cybalist@--------" >cybalist@--------</a>
an interesting discussion about early tin trade which began guessing if
the passage from the bronze age to the iron age was more due to interruption
of tin availability in the East Mediterranean than to desire of stronger
weapons / artifacts.
It looks as the first articles made in iron were actually inferior to the
bronze ones, but that iron was much more available.

Marcus Prometheus:

......................
It seems that the Cornish tin deposits were almost unknown (except on a
local scale) during the Bronze Age. Bronze-making in continental Europe was
dependent on tin ores found in Erzgebirge (between Germany and Bohemia) ,
western Europe and (in small amounts) in Etruria.
Cornish tin was discovered by Phoenicians from Carthage or Gadir (Gades,
Cadiz), who reached the Scillies and Cornwall by an open-sea route from
north-west Spain. That was also the route taken by Pytheas, who (according
to the Oxford Classical Dictionary) sailed from Gades, past Cape Ortegal,
the Loire, NW France and Uxisame (Ushant), visited the tin mines at Belerium
(Land's End) and the tin depot at Ictis (St. Michael's Mount; there were
presumably similar depots in the Scillies), before circumnavigating Britain.
The land route in Gaul was established in the 3rd c. BC by the Massiliots,
and became THEIR jealously guarded secret. It was only ca. 95 BC that a
Roman administrator (governor?) in Spain, one C. Crassus, made the tin
routes generally known. After the Roman conquest of Britain the Cornish
mines, operated by the natives, continued to produce tin for Rome until the
discovery of superior deposits in Spain.


Subject:	Subject: [novaroma] The communication problem
From:	"M G" <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230212192112185190015225190036129" >--------co@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 15:08:57 +0300

----- Original Message -----
From: Donald and Crystal Meaker <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029056113163056209105098072248155208071048" >meakerfam@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: gioved�, 11 maggio, 2000 9.02
Subject: Subject: [novaroma] The communication problem

Valete Omnes.
Respectfully, to G. Iunius Placidus et Omnes.

from M. Prometheus:

I read with a lot of interest and pleasure your message,
as I found to share many of your
points of views on the general themes.
All are correct, no exceptions to make,
just, if you kindly permit to me some
additions where you compare ancient state systems
(and their perversions) with modern states (and their perversions):

> With regard to other cultures................
..................................................... the army in its
> infinite wisdom sent me to Germany. In general the only thing proper for
> a victor to do is to be generous. The losers in any contest console
> themselves with their valor, and the victor should never contradict.
> That is why a victor oft seems to take on the characteristics of the
> loser, such as the American Army's respect for the Wehrmacht some 55
> years ago. Think how tough and virtuous the East Germans and Russians
> must be to have attempted to live the Soviet Virtues for 50 and 80 odd
> years respectively, with as little reward as they had. Who else could
> make that abhorrent a system last so well for so long? Once they get
> their feet in a market socialism as in modern Germany, or get beyond the
> Kleptocracy of current Russia, they will show us something and we will
> have to work like heck to keep up with them.

>
> As for communism, that seems to me have much more in common with the
> ancient Roman Virtues than American democratic capitalism. Consider what
> Roman Virtue means: Submittal to the State as representative of the
> people, lack of deference to the rights or will of any person as an
> individual worthy in his own right, the path of honor being through
> government service to the collective rather than commercial service to
> individual buyers who have something of value to exchange, value for
> value in a free marketplace. High taxes, public amusements, military
> service abroad under political generals who will spend an ocean of blood
> to not be embarrassed. Don't forget the similarity of Roman Corruption to
> Soviet Corruption rather than the generally more fair American tradition
> of jurisprudence with its independent and mostly apolitical judiciary.

M. Prometheus
Well, I think I cannot deny validity to your reasoning, for what I modestly
could have
understood it,
I reason so: Ancient Rome was an important state, with a strong identity,
and "ideology" of the state itself, so, at least in this sense we can
compare it to one other strong state ideology and /or
historical experience which is or was communism. And probably from this
general similarity we can also find some more special similarity like in the
famous controls of the prices and stiffness of the
Diocletian era.
Still, being very interested to this same subject since many many years,
I find also relevant the conclusions of some liberal scholars on the matter
:
Some of these relevant points of views:

COMMUNISM is not just economy directed and controlled (awfully) by the
state (like it was partially in the Diocletian's era).
Communism is state economy plus a "Salvationist religion" the
millenarianistic Promise of Paradise on Earth (in stead of Heaven) for the
true believers, organized in a church (the party) under a chain of prophets
(Marx Lenin Stalin in Russia or Marx Lenin Mao in China). The party has
"religious" rites, confessions etc. etc. The Devil of course is represented
by capitalist and the heretics by social democrats etc etc, with a thousand
similarities, of which the most important is the tentative to control
fully and deeply not just the economy but the consciences to create the
redeemed "new man".
It's a religion, atheistic officially , but felt like that by his serious
adherents just because it has a different Paradise, a different kind of
salvation.
That is why we can imagine a non fanatic Diocletian retired in his palace on
the Adriatic refusing to take in his hands the state any more, as history
teaches us he did saying something like I prefer to care of growing my
cabbage (please those with a better memory contribute with the exact quote),
but we cannot even imagine Lenin Stalin or Mao retiring.
Also excepting the Diocletian's type experiments of putting a steel corset
to the economy in the moments of crisis, in better periods Rome had many
similarities of mercantile society of times until 2 or 3 centuries ago, and
many anticipations of a capitalistic further development.
If I remember well at the beginning of the mithridatic resolutive war all
the Romans there, were killed in mass in Asia Minor ( present Turkey). Well
I
remember they were a very big figure, perhaps something like 8.000 Romans,
perhaps more, ( please the exact quote ????).
Well they were almost all civilians, mostly merchants, (and sailors ?) , and
just this figure, in my modest opinion is very convincing to demonstrates
the extent of free commerce of the era.

DIOCLETIAN's style ETATISM was the excess of the LAW, the excess of the
state, but had no external totalitarian myths and the state was a very old
state.

AMERICAN SYSTEM: As for the American system , American way of life,
American dream, and American mentality, I personally modestly agree with old
theories on the matter that the Americans tend to have great respect at
least ideologically of the LAW.

ROMA AETERNA: And who "invented" the LAW ? I know, I know,
Hammurabi, but I mean, the centrality of the LAW as founding a society ? Who
else if not the Romans ?
With all the initial restrictions and the slowliness of the extension of
citizenship rights to everybody
qualifying some affordable rules ?
I personally admire Rome as the first NON TRIBAL society, but the first
society based upon LAW.
Hammurabi made a nice code for his people.
Roman LEX was for Romans but offered something also beyond the original
tribes. Roman lex was central to roman civilization and later became a Law
for all peoples and unified or integrated a lot of peoples
because gave them a sense of complete inclusion.
(and respect for their particularities too like for local gods)
And inclusion and integration worked at the highest level too,
with so many emperors of provincial origin.

So here, in the common centrality of the law I find a very meaningful
relation between Old Rome and
Modern America.
This is also why the American Constitution's founding fathers
and following legislators, (States and Union's) adopted so many roman
symbols for the USA, eagles, fasces, laurels, scales, torches etc.

(most modestly, if somebody does not agree, please consider it just an
individual's opinion)

Of course we can find also some things differing, very well understandable
considering at least :
- Rome was for most of its history an unitary state (only very late we had
some elements of
federated parts like the partitions in 4 with 2 Caesars and 2 Augusts or in
2 with East and West)
- 2 millenniums of time distance (and a few centuries of material progress)
changed a lot !

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
I hope to have stirred only some interest for a cultural free and kind
discussion
if, as I find normal, somebody has something to contribute, add, correct,
or even to refuse, partially or totally, possibly with well explained
arguments.
All contributions including refusal are invited and will be kindly
answered.
I hope I didn't offend anybody, but just in case I apologize anticipatedly,
and I guarantee I'll try to be even more careful in the future.

Valete.

Marcus Prometheus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] "Gladiator" Movie (Was: Im passant)
From:	Marcus Traianus Valerius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166091098194233050061175001147090048144091189251099013193116131142076083" >marcustrajanvalerius@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 06:42:02 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

I am also going to see it again this weekend and have
encouraged many people to do the same. I hope there
will be many more films.

--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------; wrote:
> In a message dated 5/12/00 6:50:40 AM Pacific
> D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061044104089235135169082190036" >sfp55@--------</--------;
> writes:
>
> << If the drop-off is severe then the odds of an
> another Sand & Sandal epic
> being made will be poor. You might laugh but this
> is the way Hollywood
> works.
> I'm off to the set, but if everybody reading this
> e-mail goes to "Gladiator"
> it might secure the future of other epics. Just
> something to think about. >>
>
> Salve,
>
> This is quite true, and more important than it may
> sound. "Gladiator" has a
> good deal of pro-Roman content, and has the
> potential to be some of the best
> advertising Nova Roma has seen in quite a while.
> It'll be a great pity if the
> movie drops out of the box office the moment the
> first other action film hits
> the screens.
>
> I know Patricia Cassia and I are going to go see the
> movie again this
> weekend. We're also recommending it to everyone.
> We'll also be buying the
> video when it comes out.
>
> It's worrying that several reviewers here in the US
> have described
> "Gladiator" as being cheesy. Little do these folks
> know! While the dialogue
> is about average for a film, the sets and costuming
> are pretty close to
> impeccable. Hopefully the mix of competition from
> "Battlefield Earth" and a
> few critics who are clueless about history won't be
> enough to make this the
> last Roman oriented film for decades to come.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>

=====
Multas felicitates!
Marcus Traianus Valerius
Citizen Of Nova Roma
*********************************************************
E-Mail�� : <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=174166091098194233143061175001147090010144091189251099013193116131142076083" >MarcusTrajanValerius@--------</a>
Home Page : www.geocities.com/marcustrajanvalerius
*********************************************************

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Introduction
From:	Marcus Traianus Valerius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166091098194233050061175001147090048144091189251099013193116131142076083" >marcustrajanvalerius@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 07:11:26 -0700 (PDT)

Salve,

How many more of us are in the Great Lakes? As a
group have they ever met in one location?

--- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=070154192165056209247248242115114253071048139" >epeter4150@--------</--------; wrote:
> Salve Marce!
>
> Welcome to NR. I hope you find it as stimulating as
> I have. I
> myself
> am in a suburb of Chicago, and am pleased to see
> someone else close
> to
> myself in NR.
>
> Vale, Marce, et pax Fortunaque tecum, [So long,
> Marcus, and peace &
> good fortuna be with you]
>
> Ursus Sitheus Ragnos
>
>

=====
Multas felicitates!
Marcus Traianus Valerius
Citizen Of Nova Roma
*********************************************************
E-Mail�� : <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=174166091098194233143061175001147090010144091189251099013193116131142076083" >MarcusTrajanValerius@--------</a>
Home Page : www.geocities.com/marcustrajanvalerius
*********************************************************

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Introduction
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 09:42:09 -0500 (CDT)

> How many more of us are in the Great Lakes? As a
> group have they ever met in one location?

I am in Chicago (north side). I know of no meeting of cives that has
taken place in this area, but would certainly like to participate if
there was to be one.

A west suburban cemetery here has a mausoleum that looks somewhat like
a temple, with statues of Mercury and Minerva. (photographs at
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com/foresthome/gruspirits.html" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com/foresthome/gruspirits.html</a>). This would
be a good location for local citizens of Nova Roma to gather.

Vale, Octavius

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com/" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com/</a>
Microsoft delenda est!


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] PIXIE, T. Valerius, Edictum
From:	"Pixie" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=197028131056056135172082190036" >pyxee@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 11:03:34 -0400

Salve M. Apollonius Formosanus,

I went to egroups but the list does not yet exist. Whar exactly does the
Sodalitas Latinitatis do in Nova Roma? I am only in second year Latin at
University, my vocabulary is excellent, my grammar wretched. I am
transfering to another university to learn it in a more historically
accurate way, including speaking it. I can't love a language and culture
unless I can do more than just read it. My undergrad degree was in Roman and
Greek history (with a concentration on culture) however, so that may be
helpful

Vale,
Pixie

**************************
Randi "Pixie" Bruner
#9603-040 Bete SA
"Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea." -Robert A. Heinlein
**************************


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The communication problem
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 11:31:36 EDT

Salve Vado,

Mea sententia, you are well along the way toward genuine wisdom. ;-)

This is a gem in the middle of a very well-stated post.

Bona Fortuna

L. Sergius Aust.

On 5/13/00 12:52 AM Nick For--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123056234112159192112061175246231253136100139046209" >gens_moravia@--------</a>)
wrote:

>I think there is much about humans that
>is, intrinsically, laughable. Our sense of self-importance is not the least
>of these traits. I believe that this is one reason why the gods laugh. We
>should laugh more than we do. Too much seriousness can be very dangerous.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] So leave already. {Meakers}
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 11:31:38 EDT

I do! Thanks for pointing it out to me. I can always use another excuse
for my stupidities!

;-)

L. Sergius Aust.

On 5/13/00 1:02 AM Nick For--------lt;a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=123056234112159192112061175246231253136100139046209" >gens_moravia@--------</a>)
wrote:

>Salutem iterum! Quaerit M. Minucius Audens:
>> Yes Festus, I understand your frustration, but I ask that you try to
>> see, at least Mrs. Meaker, as she was in the days before her marriage.
>> She was as sweet and loving a person as you will wish to meet. I wonder
>> what happened????????
>
>- I believe I can answer this from my own experience of an unfortunate first
>marriage and its results, together with those of a second marriage to
>another divorcee (typically Roman, isn't it? (:-)).
>Post-divorce wranglings with a venomous ex-spouse can leave one so badly
>bruised that one's entire person is tender for months, if not years,
>afterwards. Crys has my sympathy and understanding, and therefore a deal of
>forbearance for some of the hard things she has said.
>Some of us don't have that excuse.
>
>Pace omnibus,
>
>Vado.

itane? tua mater!

(Oh yeah? Your mother!)


Subject:	Re: Sulla's Condition (Day 2)
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 11:31:35 EDT

Salve Helena,

Please convey to Lucius Cornelius my best wishes for his speedy recovery.

Lucius Sergius Australicus

On 5/12/00 6:36 PM <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=165158192237078153036181001245114223071048139" >oceanlilly@--------</a> (<a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=165158192237078153036181001245114223071048139" >oceanlilly@--------</a>) wrote:

>Fro--------<a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=165158192237078153036181001245114223071048139" >oceanlilly@--------</a> (Helena)
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>

>CC: <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=061056234237175198015158190036129" >se--------@--------</a> >Salvete.
>
>I am happy to report Sulla's improving condition and recovery!
>He was moved out of the "Special Care Unit" today and placed
>in a regular hospital room. His pain is lessening but he is
>still very, very weak and tired. However, he was quite lucid
>today and was able to converse. (He was able to speak on the
>phone to his mother for a few minutes.)
>
>Will post again tomorrow...
>
>-Helena

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: [ The Gender Edictum
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 11:31:42 EDT

Salve Lucius Marius

Fascinating! So there is no "precedent" -- no preceding edict or official
decision. So then the basic premise of Sulla's ruling is found to be
non-existent. So even as a matter of legalism, the edict is without
substance. And so it goes....

Mea sententia, this whole discussion is irrelevant to the central issue.
There should be no laws governing that which does not need to be
governed. Mankind has long agreed that the government has no business in
our bedrooms. How much less business can it have in our pants?

A government is like a pet tiger. It may be useful to have in some
circumstances, and you may have great affection for it. But it must be
kept chained and under tight control because its fundamental nature makes
it prone to kill and eat you at any time it gets a chance.

Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis

On 6/20/18 12:00 AM Mariu--------mbria (<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>) wrote:

>This chat-room conversation is what Sulla Censor is citing as a
>"precedent".

purgamentum init, exit purgamentum.

(Garbage in, garbage out.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] edicta and laws
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 11:31:37 EDT

Salve Marcus Apollonius

Please understand that what the laws of other nations say is not relevant
to what the laws of this nation should be (except, of course, to the
extent that they may support my own positions).

In a more serious vein, Nova Roma could take the lead of the world if it
recognized the abysmal inefficacy of law in controlling human behavior
(testified to by upwards of 10,000 years of history recording the
continuation of high levels of all varieties of criminality in the face
of uncountable laws). It is time for Mankind to come up with another way
to regulate social behavior -- one that hasn't been conclusively proven
to not work.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.

On 5/13/00 12:59 AM M. Apollonius Formosanus (<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=014130014161146028033082190" >bvm3@--------</a>) wrote:

>I have observed that the report on macronational
>legal policy is now available at the Roman Outpost, and that
>will be confronting him too when he gets back. That document
>establishes that European law is overwhelmingly supportive
>of transsexuals' rights to gender self-determination in ways
>not consistent with the Edictum. However, it may be that in
>some U.S. states or in Arabic, South American or Far Eastern
>countries the law is not so liberal as in Europe, and if NR
>policy reflected only the EU position for everyone, that
>could mean that we would have discrepencies between
>public/civil identity at home and NR identity for
>transsexuals, which does not strike me as being completely
>desirable. Therefore, I urge simple recognition of
>established civil gender status at home to be the best
>policy for Nova Roma.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem III Idus Mai (May 13th)
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 11:31:40 EDT

Salve Pontifex,

Thank you for another fascinating post. Can you describe for us the "mano
fico" gesture?

Also, when I first learned of this rite I think I was told that one
_spits_ the nine black beans into the corners of the house. Throwing them
over my shoulder sounds a bit more palatable.

Gratii

L. Sergius Aust

On 5/13/00 4:27 AM Antonio Grilo (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>) wrote:

>Salvete
>
>This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action or
>public business can take place.
>
>Today is the third and last day of the Lemuria in honour of the Lemures. The
>Lemures are the ghosts of wicked people or of those who did not receive the
>proper rites after death. These are not received by the Gods of the
>Underworld and as such are condemned to roam and to haunt the living. Today
>they come to
>take from the living what his theirs by right.
>The Lemuria are held on 3 consecutive odd numbered days: 9, 11 and 13 May.
>It's rites are performed at home by the paterfamilias (family father). At
>night, the paterfamilias gets up from bed and walks barefoot through the
>house, making the "mano fico" gesture. He washes his hands with water
>brought from a spring. He takes some black beans. He throws nine beans over
>his shoulder without looking back, while saying for each bean: "Through
>these beans I expiate myself and my family". He then performs a new ablution
>washing the hands. He then asks the ghosts to go away by saying nine times:
>"Manes of our ancestors, leave!". After this he looks back and the Lemures
>are surely gone, for the rites were correctly accomplished and the dead have
>taken what is their right.
>Some say that those black beans are offered in place of real human lives,
>offered by our ancestors in remote times. In fact, some Greek theologoi such
>as the Pytagorean and the Orphic say that beans are charged with life.
>
>The Vestals are preparing the mola salsa since May 7th and this will
>continue until May 14th (tomorrow).
>
>I remind you that Maius is the month of the old and the dead. Maia, the
>Lares and the Manes and their mother (Mater Larum) are specially honoured.
>
>Pax Deorum vobiscum
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Pontifex

id quod circumiret, circumveniat.

(What goes around, comes around.)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Introduction
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 11:46:34 -0700

I live in the Great Lakes area-- Ohio!

Tacitus

Marcus Traianus Valerius wrote:

> Salve,
>
> How many more of us are in the Great Lakes? As a
> group have they ever met in one location?
>
> --- <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=070154192165056209247248242115114253071048139" >epeter4150@--------</--------; wrote:
> > Salve Marce!
> >
> > Welcome to NR. I hope you find it as stimulating as
> > I have. I
> > myself
> > am in a suburb of Chicago, and am pleased to see
> > someone else close
> > to
> > myself in NR.
> >
> > Vale, Marce, et pax Fortunaque tecum, [So long,
> > Marcus, and peace &
> > good fortuna be with you]
> >
> > Ursus Sitheus Ragnos
> >
> >
>
> =====
> Multas felicitates!
> Marcus Traianus Valerius
> Citizen Of Nova Roma
> *********************************************************
> E-Mail : <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=174166091098194233143061175001147090010144091189251099013193116131142076083" >MarcusTrajanValerius@--------</a>
> Home Page : www.geocities.com/marcustrajanvalerius
> *********************************************************
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> <a href="http://im.yahoo.com/" target="_top" >http://im.yahoo.com/</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> CLICK HERE AND START SAVING ON LONG DISTANCE BILLS TODAY!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4125/6/_/61050/_/958227087/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4125/6/_/61050/_/958227087/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem III Idus Mai (May 13th)
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 17:41:46 -0000

"Mano fico" in modern Italian, at least American Italian, it is "La
Fica". The warding sign taht is also phallic. Just make a fist with
your thumb sticking up between the index finger and the third finger.
I have heard it is not soley found in countries with Latin roots,
though it was not really known in the general Angleo-American culture
50 years ago except as something "those people" did.

I hope this helps.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> Salve Pontifex,
>
> Thank you for another fascinating post. Can you describe for us the
"mano
> fico" gesture?
>
> Also, when I first learned of this rite I think I was told that one
> _spits_ the nine black beans into the corners of the house.
Throwing
them
> over my shoulder sounds a bit more palatable.
>
> Gratii
>
> L. Sergius Aust
>
> On 5/13/00 4:27 AM Antonio Grilo (amg@--------) wrote:
>
> >Salvete
> >
> >This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal
action
or
> >public business can take place.
> >
> >Today is the third and last day of the Lemuria in honour of the
Lemures. The
> >Lemures are the ghosts of wicked people or of those who did not
receive the
> >proper rites after death. These are not received by the Gods of the
> >Underworld and as such are condemned to roam and to haunt the
living. Today
> >they come to
> >take from the living what his theirs by right.
> >The Lemuria are held on 3 consecutive odd numbered days: 9, 11 and
13 May.
> >It's rites are performed at home by the paterfamilias (family
father). At
> >night, the paterfamilias gets up from bed and walks barefoot
through the
> >house, making the "mano fico" gesture. He washes his hands with
water
> >brought from a spring. He takes some black beans. He throws nine
beans over
> >his shoulder without looking back, while saying for each bean:
"Through
> >these beans I expiate myself and my family". He then performs a
new
ablution
> >washing the hands. He then asks the ghosts to go away by saying
nine times:
> >"Manes of our ancestors, leave!". After this he looks back and the
Lemures
> >are surely gone, for the rites were correctly accomplished and the
dead have
> >taken what is their right.
> >Some say that those black beans are offered in place of real human
lives,
> >offered by our ancestors in remote times. In fact, some Greek
theologoi such
> >as the Pytagorean and the Orphic say that beans are charged with
life.
> >
> >The Vestals are preparing the mola salsa since May 7th and this
will
> >continue until May 14th (tomorrow).
> >
> >I remind you that Maius is the month of the old and the dead.
Maia,
the
> >Lares and the Manes and their mother (Mater Larum) are specially
honoured.
> >
> >Pax Deorum vobiscum
> >Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> >Pontifex
>
>
> id quod circumiret, circumveniat.
>
> (What goes around, comes around.)


Subject:	Re: Tin & other metals in Antiquity
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 17:50:43 -0000

For info's sake, who is the quote from? The long end paragraph that
makes the theoretical observations on the subject.

Ericius.

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, "M G" fresco@f... wrote:
> I found on <a href="mailto:cybalist@--------" >cybalist@--------</a>
> an interesting discussion about early tin trade which began
guessing
if
> the passage from the bronze age to the iron age was more due to
interruption
> of tin availability in the East Mediterranean than to desire of
stronger
> weapons / artifacts.
> It looks as the first articles made in iron were actually inferior
to the
> bronze ones, but that iron was much more available.
>
> Marcus Prometheus:
>
> ......................
> It seems that the Cornish tin deposits were almost unknown (except
on a
> local scale) during the Bronze Age. Bronze-making in continental
Europe was
> dependent on tin ores found in Erzgebirge (between Germany and
Bohemia) ,
> western Europe and (in small amounts) in Etruria.
> Cornish tin was discovered by Phoenicians from Carthage or Gadir
(Gades,
> Cadiz), who reached the Scillies and Cornwall by an open-sea route
from
> north-west Spain. That was also the route taken by Pytheas, who
(according
> to the Oxford Classical Dictionary) sailed from Gades, past Cape
Ortegal,
> the Loire, NW France and Uxisame (Ushant), visited the tin mines at
Belerium
> (Land's End) and the tin depot at Ictis (St. Michael's Mount; there
were
> presumably similar depots in the Scillies), before circumnavigating
Britain.
> The land route in Gaul was established in the 3rd c. BC by the
Massiliots,
> and became THEIR jealously guarded secret. It was only ca. 95 BC
that a
> Roman administrator (governor?) in Spain, one C. Crassus, made the
tin
> routes generally known. After the Roman conquest of Britain the
Cornish
> mines, operated by the natives, continued to produce tin for Rome
until the
> discovery of superior deposits in Spain.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] "Gladiator" Movie (Was: Im passant)
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 14:02:35 EDT

Greetings to all,
The Gladiator film has nothing to fear, competition wise from Battlefield
Earth, the movie was ......i dislike putting down the work of others, since
they are not able to defend themselves, so I will just say that Gladiator's
position is not threaten. Today I will see Gladiator for the 3rd time, My
lady will see it for the first time, I envy her for that, could that I relive
the first time I viewed this film.

Marcus Silvius


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] edicta and laws
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 14:08:58 EDT

In a message dated 5/13/00 11:32:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:

<< Nova Roma could take the lead of the world if it
recognized the abysmal inefficacy of law in controlling human behavior
(testified to by upwards of 10,000 years of history recording the
continuation of high levels of all varieties of criminality in the face
of uncountable laws). >>

Hmmm...let's abolish medicine too. For ten thousand years of history,
everyone who has taken medication has ended up dead anyway!

Seriously though, what do you suggest to replace law?

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Well Come Pixie! about brewing:
From:	<a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=123202250237229116184218046036129208" >gkbagne@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 18:21:09 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: [ The Gender Edictum
From:	Marcus Pap--------s Justus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a>
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 13:51:03 -0600

Salvete,

I must have been quick on the delete key since I've missed much of this
discussion. What I wanted to mention was that somewhere in Justinian's
Digest, the jurists pronounced that hermaphrodites should be considered to
have the gender which they most 'appeared' to be ... I can look up the
particulars if this would be helpful in the current discussion ...

mpj

At 11:31 AM 5/13/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Salve Lucius Marius
>
>Fascinating! So there is no "precedent" -- no preceding edict or official
>decision. So then the basic premise of Sulla's ruling is found to be
>non-existent. So even as a matter of legalism, the edict is without
>substance. And so it goes....
>
>Mea sententia, this whole discussion is irrelevant to the central issue.
>There should be no laws governing that which does not need to be
>governed. Mankind has long agreed that the government has no business in
>our bedrooms. How much less business can it have in our pants?
>
>A government is like a pet tiger. It may be useful to have in some
>circumstances, and you may have great affection for it. But it must be
>kept chained and under tight control because its fundamental nature makes
>it prone to kill and eat you at any time it gets a chance.
>
>Lucius Sergius Australicus
>Tribunus Plebis
>
>On 6/20/18 12:00 AM Mariu--------mbria (<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>) wrote:
>
> >This chat-room conversation is what Sulla Censor is citing as a
> >"precedent".
>
>
>purgamentum init, exit purgamentum.
>
>(Garbage in, garbage out.)
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Click here for savings: beMANY!
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4115/6/_/61050/_/958231915/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4115/6/_/61050/_/958231915/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] edicta and laws
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 15:38:05 -0500

An excellent analogy, Festus! Because no-one but an utter fool expects
physicians to keep him from dying, just as no-one but an utter fool would
expect law to control human behavior.

It would be foolish to abolish either one -- why do you raise such an
obvious straw man?

With what would I replace law as the failed controller of human conduct?
With training and teaching, of course. The behavior of each human being
is controlled by a combination of hard-wired "programming" and learned
behavior, the outcome of both of which is affected/modified by
environmental events and contingencies. If you start out teaching little
children competently and purposefully how to behave, and modify the
environment as necessary to support what you're teaching, then
misbehavior, particularly of the serious kinds like murder and the like,
would be so uncommon as to be an oddity.

In contrast, what we actually do in our societies today is train our
children in dyssocial, even antisocial, behavior, fill them full of
poisons as they grow up, and then turn them loose for the government to
handle, recognizing that the difference between government and organized
crime in our current world is mainly that organized crime is better
organized but government has larger and heavier-armed legions.

By the time a child reaches school age in this country (USA), it's
virtually too late to make a responsible social human being out of him or
her. Children here don't stand a chance, and because of that, this
society doesn't stand a chance.

L. Sergius Aust.

On 5/13/00 1:08 PM <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> (<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>) wrote:

>In a message dated 5/13/00 11:32:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; writes:
>
><< Nova Roma could take the lead of the world if it
> recognized the abysmal inefficacy of law in controlling human behavior
> (testified to by upwards of 10,000 years of history recording the
> continuation of high levels of all varieties of criminality in the face
> of uncountable laws). >>
>
>Hmmm...let's abolish medicine too. For ten thousand years of history,
>everyone who has taken medication has ended up dead anyway!
>
>Seriously though, what do you suggest to replace law?
>
>Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Re: Fw: [novaroma] Well Come Pixie! about brewing:
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 19:00:21 -0400

Greetings,

Hi, I'm Pixie's husband, and I'm the brewer/vintner in the family. The
problem with the wine that you are referring to (being made from the
second pressing of the grapes) is probably a lack of sugar content, and
could be compounded by the type of yeast that is being used to ferment
the must, and the way the wine is being prepared. Any kind of alcoholic
beverage, but especially wine, needs a high enough alcohol content to
prevent acidification by acidifying bacteria. If it is not above 6%
alcohol, acidifying bacteria can turn the wine into vinegar (this is
also a problem with some meads, especially low alcohol content meads
like sack mead). The acidifying ("turning into vinegar") problem can be
remedied by several means. First, make sure that your brewing tools and
containers are completely sanitary before using them, this prevents
acidifying bacteria from getting to the wine in the first place (always
use an airlock!). Secondly, make sure there is enough sugar in the must
to allow the wine to ferment to above 6% alcohol content (this can be
determined by measuring the specific gravity of the must). Thirdly, make
sure the yeast strain being used has a high enough alcohol tolerance to
ferment to above 6% alcohol content (this is probably the main
problem). If all of these precautions are taken, wine, mead, or beer
will almost be guaranteed not to turn to vinegar.

If anyone needs any further explanation about any of the things I've
written about above, or brewing/vinting in general, feel free to e-mail
me.

-Paul Shuford

> >From Aula Decia Lapella, Greetings! I'm glad to find a brewer-
> >vintner. Perhaps you could help us with the difference between sour
> >wine, which was issued to the legions, and vinegar. Cato the Censor'
> >in De Agricultura, describes making sour wine by taking the grape
> >pulp
> >after pressing the juice for wine, then adding water to the pulp and
> >pressing again. This second pressing is then fermented like regular
> >wine but is ready to drink in 3 months. I'd guess with a lower sugar
> >content, you'd get less alcohol, but I don't know how it would taste
> >compared to high alcohol vinegar. -And believe me I've made a lot of
> >vinegar in my unsuccessful vintner career. Have you ever tried raisin
> >wine for thee Apicius recipies? -anyone want raisin vinegar? Your
> >friend in the kitchen, Lapella
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"Still if you will not fight for the right when you can
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live as slaves." - Winston Churchill


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] "Gladiator" Movie (Was: Im passant)
From:
Date:	Sat, 13 May 2000 19:41:44 -0400

I saw Gladiator today for the first time. Wow. My husband stayed
after to see Battlefield Earth, but he was quite impressed by
Gladiator. It is certainly the best film I have seen this year.

I might have liked a warning that I was gonna cry like a baby at
the end. :)

Ursula Numeria

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=019056014056175209036168000248147208071048" >Zemetrius@--------</--------; wrote:
>
> Greetings to all,
> The Gladiator film has nothing to fear, competition wise from Battlefield
> Earth, the movie was ......i dislike putting down the work of others, since
> they are not able to defend themselves, so I will just say that Gladiator's
> position is not threaten. Today I will see Gladiator for the 3rd time, My
> lady will see it for the first time, I envy her for that, could that I relive
> the first time I viewed this film.
>
> Marcus Silvius
>
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Mia Soderquist
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