Subject:	Re: [novaroma] edicta and laws
From:
Date:	Mon, 15 May 2000 21:37:13 EDT

Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in
place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room;
they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their
food and tyrannize their teachers.
-- Socrates=A0=20

In a message dated 5/14/0 4:14:56 AM, <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a> writes:

<< > Have you looked around lately? There is a range of behaviors across the
> population -- some children get more meaningful training than others.
> Vast numbers get nothing or worse. The number who grow up antisocial or
> dyssocial are quite enough to create chaos, as anyone who looks at the
> real world can attest.
>
> L. Sergius Aust.


"Back in *my* day, sonny. . ."

People do fall through the "cracks" of society, and life is not fair.
The best training one can get for the "real world" is to be trained
utilizers of their freedom.

This freedom means kids get to work hard, go to school, and climb the
ladders of society or embrace the snakes of supposedly dyssocial behavior.

Rule of law works because it protects the freedom of people to do what
they want while still holding them responsible for their actions.

If we want both freedom and personal accountability, we have to let
people fail sometimes. This doesn't mean that we let them fall on hard
times or suffer. That's where we agree to put in social safety nets to
provide a sort of societal minimum for the cives. Digression.

Indoctrinate all kids with state-sponsored "values" or lift the rule of
law? Which would you have people accept, a lack of liberty or a lack of
responsibility?

-Secundus Troicus Ductor
Lanista
>>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Introduction
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Mon, 15 May 2000 21:46:27 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Marcus Valerius;

Welcome to Nova Roma!!! I would recommend that you read the website
thoroughly if you have not already done so, listen well on the onelist
if you have the time, take part when you have something to say, do not
be too thin-sknned as we still have some on list who tend to get a tad
salty from time to time, and make some friends. Your friends and
interests on this NR list are your greatest advantages, and you will
find I believe in the long run the greatest thing of value that you hold
dear. Welcom to Nova Roma--come for the culture, stay for the people!!!

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Absence and Other
From:
Date:	Mon, 15 May 2000 22:58:29 EDT

Salvete senatores, magistrates, et cives.

Unfortunately, as some of you may have noticed, I have been absent from Nova
Roma for some time now. I have been able to keep at least a vague idea as to
the happenings within our Republic, though I have, to my dismay, been unable
to participate to the extent which I wish I could. For that matter, I have
been unable to participate at all for several months. In my absence I have
unwilling neglected my duties to the people who placed their trust in me
during the previous elections. My position on the Tribunal has remained
empty, and the website would have gone without update and improvement were it
not for the efforts of those dedicated citizens who were in a position to
make the efforts they have. I apologize wholeheartedly for my unannounced and
unexplained absence, but assure all that my reasons are good, and that I have
had no choice. Some of you may not care, some of you may be irritated with
me, some of you disappointed...whatever the case, I have missed Nova Roma and
my peers here more than they have missed me. Because I have not the
capability to properly attend to the duties required of me, I hereby
officially resign my positions within the government of Nova Roma. Tribune of
the People, I am no more. Curator Araneae I am no more. I am not disappearing
from Nova Roma but will only be able to watch from the background for a,
hopefully, breif period of time. May the Gods continue to smile upon us all.
Ave Nova Roma Aeterna!

Valete omnes,

Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Announcement
From:
Date:	Mon, 15 May 2000 22:45:51 -0700

Salvete Omens.

As everyone knows by know I am back...alive..and well not totally well yet.
However, let me assure everyone that I have not gone in and deleberately deleted
anyone from the Roles. Isnt it funny that the Office of Censor has gone from one
extreme to the other..but that is for another time.

Here is my policy in the deletion of citizens:

If you ask....I send out a confirmation e-mail verifying that is exactly what you
want done.....if I get a response...bye bye...your gone. I will usually notify
Pater/Mater familias in regards to that fact. (Case in point..Dex and Palladius)

Also, I have about 80 problem children on the application.....when I got it it
was over 120 problem children. They are sent (mulitple times) emails trying to
fix issues....if I dont get any response..then they are deleted.

There have been 2 citizens who have been removed from the Roles becuase of
failure to provide: LEGAL name, Address, City, State, Phone number, Email. And
ROMAN Name.

Beyond that....please note that I have also added 60 plus citizens.....its
amazing how that gets lost in the shuffle.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------; wrote:

> In --------ss--------d-------- 5/11/00 4:20:30 PM P--------ic D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061044104089235135169082190036" >sfp55@--------</--------;
> writes:
>
> << No, he has not. He only removed citizens after they requested it twice.
> As consul I wrote many of these citizens requesting them to stay.
> Their reasons for leaving were varied. And after they requested twice to be
> removed, only then did he do so.
> Be sure of your facts. This is one of the problems with the list. Think
> before you post. The first part of your post was helpful, and no doubt the
> Senate will take it under advisement. The second part was not helpful at
> all. >>
>
> Salvete,
>
> It IS a fact that Sulla has so far removed from the Citizen's Rolls only
> those who have specifially requested that this be done.
>
> It is easy to see how this could be misunderstood however, since he has
> repeatedly stated that he was going to remove folks for such reasons as not
> providing a street address, not providing a phone number, not having a full
> Roman name, not having an Email address, and not having at least *two*
> methods of contact, (i.e. both physical address and phone #).
>
> There has been some argument about at least some of these. What if someone
> doesn't have a computer? What if someone can't decide on a Roman name
> immediately? What if someone's family objects to our inclusion of Paganism
> and they simply don't want to be called at home? What if someone is on the
> internet all the time, and simply doesn't want to receive unsolicited mail?
>
> I myself thought that Sulla had removed anything up to 75 or 80 Citizens from
> the rolls because of the above. He said he was going to, after all. To date
> however it does seem that he is waiting until some of the questions get
> cleared up.
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> There's still time to order Calyx & Corolla flowers for mom.
> These fresh and elegant bouquets are available for delivery
> by Mother's Day. To order, please visit
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4103/6/_/61050/_/958094133/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4103/6/_/61050/_/958094133/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Fwd. re: Gender Issue
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 01:38:38 -0500 (CDT)

Forwarded by permission of the author, Nicholaus Moravius Vado...who
had intended to post it to the List in the first place.

<---- Begin Forwarded Message ---->
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:48:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicolaus Moravius <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Subject: Gender Issue

Salvete Novi Romani:

I read this this afternoon (without looking for anything of the sort,
believe me), in one of my course books.

(Source: Monserrat, D: 'Reading Gender in the Roman World' from
Huskinson, J (Ed.) 'Experiencing Rome: Culture, Identity and Power in
the Roman Empire', pp. 153-8) (Routledge & The Open University, 2000).

"Artemidorus' method of interpreting particular dreams raises some
interesting questions about how the Romans might have thought about
gender - a concept for which, after all, they had no word...

"Gender is not a fixed bodily state, but a shifting cultural category
in which biological sex may or may not be a determining factor... These
notions may seem difficult to grasp now, since there is a predominant
model for thinking about humanity as divided into two natural kinds,
female and male. But this current paradigm would have seemed equally
strange to many Romans. Simone de Beauvoir's famous dictum that 'one
is not born a woman, but becomes one' may be much closer to the Romans'
own notions about the foundation of *gender* as opposed to sex...

"The concept of gender is a modern one, and many historians would
criticise me for even attempting to overlay it on the Roman world...

"Elagabalus' attempt to transform himself into a woman...prepares the
modern reader another way in which reconstructed gender categories
differ very much from contemporary ones. What gender category would
Elagabalus have inhabited after his 'op'? From a modern standpoint,
Elagabalus' gender position is problematic. I am reminded of the two
cases brought... to the European Court of Justice by male-to-female
transsexuals to have their so-called gender reassignment recognised, so
that they could legally *become* women in spite of being born men.

"For the Romans, however, legal action might not have been necessary,
because their gender system allowed for the possibility of Elagabalus
inhabiting a third gender status that was neither female nor male.
There is a certain amount of medicalised discussion of this in the
medical writers of the Roman period...

"...genetic hermaphrodites and eunuchs, medically castrated men like
the Galli... and celibates such as the Vestal Virgins might all be seen
as members of the Roman third gender. Significantly, Roman authors
sometimes talk about these diverse individuals as though they had some
inherent connection..."

I see the hand of my (third gender?) patron Minerva in this.

Bene valete,

Vado.

<---- End Forwarded Message ---->

Subject:	Sulla is back!
From:	Helena <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=165158192237078153036181001245114223071048139" >oceanlilly@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 03:29:18 -0400 (EDT)

I am happy to report to the Senate and the People of Rome
that Sulla was discharged from the hospital late Monday
and is back home! (He has already been online as some of
you may have seen.) Now begins the recovery process and
he will be convalescing for about a month.

We both want to thank all those who sent their well-wishes
and prayers. :) They were very much appreciated! :)
[I especially want to thank our friend and Consul Fabius
and my friend (and predecessor) Ericius for all their support.]
Last but not least, I want to thank the Gods and Goddesses
of Rome for Sulla's safe deliverance and rapid recovery and
for all Their mercies and blessings to us at this difficult
time. :)

-Helena
R.N. [Roman Nurse (!)]
______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at <a href="http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup" target="_top" >http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup</a>

Subject:	Ancient coin site, another Roman site
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 14:46:26 YEKST

Salve,

a site on Ancient Greek & Roman Coins:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/~dougsmit/" target="_top" >http://www.geocities.com/~dougsmit/</a>

(Sasha, vozmozhno tebe bydet interesno, esli ty ego escho ne videl)

a site about Roman history, Latin language, mythology and all that jazz,
perhaps already known in NR?

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS
Civis et barbarvs Novæ Romæ
Propraetor Sarmatiæ Provinciæ

Libertas inaestimabilis res est

Vale(te) in pace

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>

Subject:	Electronic Journal of Mithraic Studies
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 10:52:22 +0100

Salvete omnes

The Electronic Journal of Mithraic Studies (EJMS) is the result of several
months of planning in colaboration with some of the best scholars of the
Mithraic Mysteries. It all started with an informal conversation between me
and Prof. Jaime Alvar from the University of Huelva, Spain. After gathering
a few more experts, an Editorial Board was formed.
The EJMS is now based in the University of Huelva and has just lauched the
first Call for Papers which I send below. Our aim for the short/middle term
is to be the main Internet resource of material for the study of the
Mithraic Mysteries.


Valete omnes
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
****************************************************************************
****************

Dear sirs,

The Electronic Journal of Mithraic Studies (EJMS) is now available at
<a href="http://www2.uhu.es/ejms/" target="_top" >http://www2.uhu.es/ejms/</a> . The EJMS is a revival of the Journal of Mithraic
Studies edited by Dr. Richard Gordon. It is a place where researchers on
Roman Mithraism can publish the product of their research and make it freely
available for other interested people. The journal concerns all aspects of
the mysteries of Mithras, including history, archaeology, theology,
sociology, others. Its span includes related religions and cults such as
Persian Zoroastrianism and other cults in the Roman Empire. The EJMS is
based at the University of Huelva, Spain, and is managed by an Editorial
Board composed of scholars of Mithraism and Roman Religion with
international projection:
Submitted material is reviewed by an editor board which includes renown
scholars of Mithraism and Roman Religion:

- Prof. Jaime Alvar ( <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=045166245089209135025082190036" >ja253@--------</a> )
- Prof. Roger Be-------- <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194181192098221135025082190036" >rbe--------...</a> )
- Prof. Jose Encarnacao ( <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045064192185185031218158175043147063136210139046209" &--------dencarnacao@--------</a&--------)
- Dr. Richard Gordon ( <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029176219122127031015242190036129" &--------ichra@--------</a&--------)
- Dr. Alison Griffith ( <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=219128113112050197249218141036129208" >--------017@--------</a> )
- Dr. Andreas Hansen ( &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=100073192185099198172218031036129208" &g--------ensen@--------&l--------&g--------
- Dr. Ingeborg Huld ( <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=103075235150143198050218175036129208" >HuldZet@--------</--------; )

The material published in the EJMS includes papers and archaeological
reports. Accepted languages are English, French, Spanish, Portuguese,
German, Italian, Dutch and Flemish. The EJMS follows an "open yearly
volumes" approach suitable for Internet publication which consists on
gradually building its volumes during the year, while keeping currently
collected material accessible all the time. The EJMS has now opened Volume I
for the year 2000 and asks for your participation.

Electronic submission can be performed by sending the documents as email
atta--------nts to <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>. The first page of the do--------nt should
include the title of the work, complete name of the authors, their
affiliation, name of contact author and respective email address. Submitted
papers should preferably be Word 97 or compatible documents obeying to the
parameters defined in the EJMS stylesheet (available at
<a href="http://www2.uhu.es/ejms/EJMSStylesheet.doc" target="_top" >http://www2.uhu.es/ejms/EJMSStylesheet.doc</a> ), though other
formats can also accepted.
Submission of hardcopies is also accepted. These should be sent to the
following address:

Antonio M R C Grilo
R. Cmdt. Sacadura Cabral, N51, 2ESQ,
Ponte de Frielas
2670 Sto. Antonio dos Cavaleiros
Portugal

For any additional questions, please contact Eng. Antonio Grilo at
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> .

Best regards,
Antonio Grilo
(Webmaster)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fwd. re: Gender Issue
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 09:29:38 EDT

This is essentially what we teach in anthropology, altho the gender =
culture, sex = biology distinction is an oversimplification that can be
problematic as genders usually have a biological component. There are a
number of societies that have third genders, including the Cheyenne berdache
and Omani xanith. The subject usually fascinates students, and their
questions have sent me back to the library on more than one occasion. I've
been interested in finding more sources on eunuchs, so I thank you for this
one.

Iustinia Cassia

P.S. Once a friend of mine was telling another friend that she had UNIX at
work. "Eunuchs?" asked her friend, shocked. "Why, what do they do?"


In a me--------e dated 5/16/0 1:39:22 AM, <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> write--------r>
<< Forwarded by permission of the author, Nicholaus Moravius Vado...who
had intended to post it to the List in the first place.

<---- Begin Forwarded Message ---->
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:48:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nicolaus Moravius <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a>
Subject: Gender Issue

Salvete Novi Romani:

I read this this afternoon (without looking for anything of the sort,
believe me), in one of my course books.

(Source: Monserrat, D: 'Reading Gender in the Roman World' from
Huskinson, J (Ed.) 'Experiencing Rome: Culture, Identity and Power in
the Roman Empire', pp. 153-8) (Routledge & The Open University, 2000).

"Artemidorus' method of interpreting particular dreams raises some
interesting questions about how the Romans might have thought about
gender - a concept for which, after all, they had no word...

"Gender is not a fixed bodily state, but a shifting cultural category
in which biological sex may or may not be a determining factor... These
notions may seem difficult to grasp now, since there is a predominant
model for thinking about humanity as divided into two natural kinds,
female and male. But this current paradigm would have seemed equally
strange to many Romans. Simone de Beauvoir's famous dictum that 'one
is not born a woman, but becomes one' may be much closer to the Romans'
own notions about the foundation of *gender* as opposed to sex...

"The concept of gender is a modern one, and many historians would
criticise me for even attempting to overlay it on the Roman world...

"Elagabalus' attempt to transform himself into a woman...prepares the
modern reader another way in which reconstructed gender categories
differ very much from contemporary ones. What gender category would
Elagabalus have inhabited after his 'op'? From a modern standpoint,
Elagabalus' gender position is problematic. I am reminded of the two
cases brought... to the European Court of Justice by male-to-female
transsexuals to have their so-called gender reassignment recognised, so
that they could legally *become* women in spite of being born men.

"For the Romans, however, legal action might not have been necessary,
because their gender system allowed for the possibility of Elagabalus
inhabiting a third gender status that was neither female nor male.
There is a certain amount of medicalised discussion of this in the
medical writers of the Roman period...

"...genetic hermaphrodites and eunuchs, medically castrated men like
the Galli... and celibates such as the Vestal Virgins might all be seen
as members of the Roman third gender. Significantly, Roman authors
sometimes talk about these diverse individuals as though they had some
inherent connection..."

I see the hand of my (third gender?) patron Minerva in this.

Bene valete,

Vado. >>

Subject:	Gender discussions
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 14:23:31 +0100

Salvete omnes

I'd like to ask my fellow citizens not to pursue the Gender discussion on
this list. There are a lot if sites related to transgendered and transexual
people, and that topic is no different in Nova Roma than in any other nation
of the world.
Don't we have more interesting and Roman-related topics to discuss?

I remind you that magistrates are elected by the people. Such was the case
of Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla. As you know, to enact edicts is one of his
powers. So, if you don't like his work, just don't vote on him again after
his term finishes.
On the other hand, I'm sure that the Senate and the other magistrates are
aware of the issue and so you should start bothering them all instead of
concentrating on a single man. In fact it is the Consules, Praetores,
Tribuni Plebis who can call the Comitia to vote, not the Censor.

I remind you that Fimbria is not a citizen of Nova Roma, and so, why to
discuss the problems of non-citizens? Shouldn't we discuss topics related to
the people of Nova Roma instead?

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Absence and Other
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 11:02:08 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar;

I am very dismayed and disappointed to hear of your resignation of your
posts. You , of course, know your own situation best, but in relation
to your being missed, I can assure you that on the basis of your
excellent work on the Website and as a Tribune you have indeed been
missed. I have been in contact with Censor Sulla before his
hospitalization and he indicated two very good reasons for your absence
on the list. These are situations, to my mind, which could well happen
to anyone. and while I am very sorry that these problems are occurring
in your life, it is certainly within the realm of reality for them to
occur somewhere and if anyone is angry or upset with you, I do not know
who they are, and they most certainly do not understand the
circumstances as Censor Sulla has explained them.

Having said all that, I appeal to you to reconsider your resignations in
the light of my words. Again, I realize that you are the best judge of
your situation, but should you be limited to just a few appearances on
the internet for limited periods with your knowledge and energy, NR
would still greatly benefit. I ask you also to consider that the effort
to replace you as a result of your resignations saps NR of much of it's
energy to move forward, having to deal with new elections and
appointments in mid-year. Having you retain your positions even in a
situation where you would be on the list for short periods of time would
be perferable to replacement.

Regardless of your final decision, I want to thank you for your efforts
on the part of NR and the execution of your excellent ideas and the
plain and simple hard work evidenced in your efforts for NR.

Vale, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Absence and Other
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 11:00:20 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Gnae Tarquini,

>I hereby
> officially resign my positions within the government of Nova Roma. Tribune of
> the People, I am no more. Curator Araneae I am no more.

I have recently proposed a number of changes to the site that would make
the Curator Araneae's job much easier. The Album Civium, Album Gentium,
and Album Senatorium would all by dynamically generated from a database,
thus there would be no need to maintain these pages by hand (which I
suspect is tedious, considering the number of changes requested). The
tools I have created to manage this data will be done within two weeks.

Additionally, I have recommended that a group of Curatores be assigned
to maintain different areas of the site, thus not requiring any
one person to do all of the work. This can happen soon after the
site is moved to my server.

Therefore, I request that you reconsider your resignation, and continue
on as one of several Curatores. The amount of work will not be as
overwhelming as it has been in the past, as it will be shared and
partially automated.

Vale, Octavius.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com/" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com/</a>

Subject:	Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 14:44:06 -0400

Salvete Omnes

I would welcome some input from the public on a matter of censorial policy
that may or may not become the subject of a future edictum, depending on the
positions of my colleague and me, and on the opinions of the Senate and
People. The matter has important implications for the development of Nova
Roma's sense of community, electoral system and growth.

We have a lot of gentes with two members, some with only one member. The
majority of applications for citizenshp that I have seen thus far in office
have been to establish new gentes.

Given that we are striving to establish a real community with meaningful
relationships among citizens beyond official common status as citizens, our
future is largely in our sodalitates, provinciae and gentes. Our
sodalitates join us in our interests; our provinciae in geographic
proximity; our gentes in identity and/or faith and/or devotion. My
colleague has recognized this as demonstrated by his setting up an e-mail
list for the gens Cornelia.

At this stage in Nova Roma's development, wherein we are growing by means of
applications received over the Internet, it seems to me that the type of
growth most conducive to building a real community begins with inclusive,
cohesive gentes. That is, the more people join us through open, existing
gentes, the more chance we have to achieve an accelerated and rich
development of community. While the more people join us as sole gentile
islands in the bitstream, the less correlation there will be between the
increase in numbers of citizens and the development of anything like a real
community.

I am not proposing to ban new gentes, nor to put some kind of artificial
quota on their establishment. What I have been doing thus far is
encouraging new applicants who, through errors in applications, demonstrate
a lack of familiarity with us, to join existing gentes. An incidental
benefit of this approach for an applicant who is having trouble is the
reduction by one in the number of names that he/she has to choose, which can
be a problem for some applicants. I also encourage any applicants seeking
to establish new gentes with non-Latin nomina to choose an existing gens.
Clearly, particularly in light of previous edicta, the office of censor is
to apply some linguistic standard to the choice of new citizens' names. It
follows reasonably, in my view, that the acceptance of new gentes should
pass some criteria, that may be similar to the following:

i A historically attested Latin nomen
ii A reason beyond the name itself for establishing the new gens. Such
reasons could include
- geography (few or no existing gentes within feasible meeting distance)
- different patron deities or combination thereof

Again, I hope to hear some opinions on this matter for my colleague and me
to take into account as we deliberate on this matter in the near future.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 13:55:39 -0500 (CDT)

Salve, 'Tonius, et salvete omnes...

Most esteemed Praetor:

You are building up quite a track-record of attempting to silence
debate on subjects not of personal interest to you. We are not going
to stop talking about gender, about philosophy, or about anything else
merely because Antonius Gryllus Graecus would have it so.

Is an examination of ancient Roman attitudes about gender, in an
attempt to find guidance in a modern-day situation, 'off-topic'?

Is public criticism of the actions of a senior magistrate 'off-topic'?

Is the thing that happened to me *while I was yet a Citizen*
irrelevant? ('There but for the grace of God...'; it could have been
any of you...)

Where were you, Praetor, when a single magistrate, by unilateral
pronouncement, changed the meaning of a clause in the Constitution
beyond all recognition? Is this not something you feel concerns you,
as one of two magistrates elected to uphold what little we've got for
Nova Roman law?

If you think these are not the right things to discuss, I invite you to
come up with better.

And if you really feel that this List is not serving its purpose, I
remind you that there is currently a vacancy in the Curator Sermonem's
office. I notice nobody wanted my old job the last time it was up for
grabs, and I don't hear anyone clamoring for it now...but if you
believe you can do better, why, there's your chance.

Unless and until that post is filled, this List does not have a
moderator...except for the dignity, intelligence, consideration and
discipline of the Nova Roman community as a whole. Since I laid down
my post, that has generally been sufficient.

In amicitia et fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 19:57:29 +0100

Salvete Luci Mari Fimbria et al

>You are building up quite a track-record of attempting to silence
>debate on subjects not of personal interest to you. We are not going
>to stop talking about gender, about philosophy, or about anything else
>merely because Antonius Gryllus Graecus would have it so.
I made a request. I did not give an order.

>Is an examination of ancient Roman attitudes about gender, in an
>attempt to find guidance in a modern-day situation, 'off-topic'?
You don't need any guidance in a modern-day situation because you are not a
citizen anymore.

>Is public criticism of the actions of a senior magistrate 'off-topic'?
Criticism by citizens is not off-topic. Criticism by non-citizens is
destructive and off-topic.

>Is the thing that happened to me *while I was yet a Citizen*
>irrelevant? ('There but for the grace of God...'; it could have been
>any of you...)
You are not a citizen because you have chosen to do so. Doing it you have
lost all right to talk about NR political issues.

>Where were you, Praetor, when a single magistrate, by unilateral
>pronouncement, changed the meaning of a clause in the Constitution
>beyond all recognition?
What clause did change?

>Is this not something you feel concerns you,
>as one of two magistrates elected to uphold what little we've got for
>Nova Roman law?
I did not see any violation of the Constitution. Did the Censors expel you
for being a transgendered? No. As such they have performed no
discrimination.

>If you think these are not the right things to discuss, I invite you to
>come up with better.
There are plenty of interesting issues to discuss.

>And if you really feel that this List is not serving its purpose, I
>remind you that there is currently a vacancy in the Curator Sermonem's
>office. I notice nobody wanted my old job the last time it was up for
>grabs, and I don't hear anyone clamoring for it now...but if you
>believe you can do better, why, there's your chance.
I have no need for that when non-citizens are the target. Like in ancient
Rome non-citizens have no rights, not even to be heard by the Comitia in
case of charge.

>Unless and until that post is filled, this List does not have a
>moderator...except for the dignity, intelligence, consideration and
>discipline of the Nova Roman community as a whole. Since I laid down
>my post, that has generally been sufficient.
And I hope it keeps being sufficient.

>In amicitia et fides,
Vale bene

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"George VanDeWater" <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=081166234150056086048038203219129208071" >vandewge@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 13:09:38 -0600

Salvete,

I would agree with your observation and recommendation. I believe that we =
may have a number of Gens that exist in name only with little or no =
participation in the larger community. When I decided to become a citizen =
of Nova Roma, I selected Gens Africania for specific personal reasons. =
After some three or four months attempting to contact the Paterfamilias =
Sipo Africanus for permission to unite with his Gens I gave up and was =
about to look for another family. I was notified by the Censor that I =
could in fact keep the name Africania by adding Secundia to it and start =
my own Gens. This has worked well for me as we now have seven (7) members =
and five more looking into becoming citizens. These are all within our =
Provincia and enables us to support each others efforts. However we have =
had problems contacting the Governor of the Province (One no longer is =
appointed) and with the noted exception of Censor Sulla who has performed =
Yoman work have had little contact with many others.

The point then is; do we need to identify those gens that are not active =
or no longer interested and remove them. Can we make an effort to =
recommend to new applicants gens within their Province that are accpeting =
new members?

Let's all work together to improve Nova Roma.

Gaius Africanus Secundus Germanicus

Subject:	Re: Request for comments on censorial policy
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 19:12:03 -0000

A short reply on limited topics.




--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, "RMerullo" rmerullo@c... wrote:
> Salvete Omnes
>
> I would welcome some input from the public on a matter of censorial
policy
> that may or may not become the subject of a future edictum,
depending on the
> positions of my colleague and me, and on the opinions of the Senate
and
> People.

[Snip-big time]
>It
> follows reasonably, in my view, that the acceptance of new gentes
should
> pass some criteria, that may be similar to the following:
>
> i A historically attested Latin nomen

CAE:
I am for this. But then look at my name. :-)


> ii A reason beyond the name itself for establishing the new gens.
Such
> reasons could include
> - geography (few or no existing gentes within feasible meeting
distance)

CAE: Geography need not, perhaps Should not, be a factor in Gentes.
And there are a number of gentes that are wide spread. One of these
it the huge gens Cornelia.

> - different patron deities or combination thereof

CAE:
This makes sense. It would be a personal matter, but yes. I can see
some people not wanting X & Y as patrons. Though I do wonder how much
of a factor it has actually been. If we go on this line it could
lead
us right back to singleton gentes if people think that the gens
deities have to be their own personal deities. I see no reason why,
in this XXVIII century after the founding of the City, that
individual
tutelary deities can be other than, or a modification of, those of
the
gens. I do not think this type of factor has been at work in the
growth of gens Cornelia. ;-)

That's all-- for now.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.
Paterfamilias gesn Aelia.

post scriptum:
Gens Aelia is looking for a "few" good Romans.
Apply to paterfamilias
=({[;-)

Subject:	Re: Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 15:17:57 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete, Conscript Fathers, Citizens and Censor Merrullus;

I do not disagree at all with your thesis as presented, and I further
agree with your ideas of gente contributions to the needs of the
Citizens of Nova Roma. I would like to recommend two thoughts for your
consideration. The first is in situations where the applicant has gone
to the trouble to identify a living Roman of the past from hstorical
records or, from a funeral headstone in the case of the not so well
known Romans, that this extra trouble be recognized by allowing that
individual to create his own Gens. To that end perhaps the catalogs of
such information as Roman funeral stones could be made available (at
least the references) on the Website, where the information of selecting
Roman names is found.

My second comment for consideration is a kind of training booklet or
reference for the Paterfamilias / Materfamilas outlining the duties and
responsibilities of such, and the "care and feeding of a Gens." If such
a set of guidelines are currently available either somewhere in Roman
Literature, or in the minds of our citizens, it might be well to gather
that information together in one place. If such is needed, I would ask
that all references, ideas, comments and guidelines be forwarded to me.
I will use my resources to put them together and make them available to
NR for use as the citizens and the NR organization shall see fit.

I thank you kindly for this opportunity to contribute to the improvement
of NR in this small and insignificant way.

Valete, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 20:13:57 +0100

Salve, Graece:

Scripsisti:

> I'd like to ask my fellow citizens not to pursue the Gender discussion on
> this list. There are a lot if sites related to transgendered and
transexual
> people, and that topic is no different in Nova Roma than in any other
nation
> of the world.

- therefore we have a right to discuss it here, especially as the present
discriminatory Edictum Censoris affects the rights of our citizens, and (as
Fimbria's forwarding my post proved, I hope)
such legislation is un-Roman.

> Don't we have more interesting and Roman-related topics to discuss?

- I would have thought you would have found the gender-crossing problems of
your co-cultist Elagabalus of some interest? Anyway, we can't interest all
of the people all of the time. No-one has asked me to shut up about mushy
peas, or about waving genitalia about (or representations thereof). If you
find this gender thread uninteresting, that's YOUR problem (as being bored
by 'Gladiator' and role-playing games is mine). Tell you what, shall we talk
about chickens instead?

> I remind you that magistrates are elected by the people. Such was the case
> of Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla.

- sole candidate, elected by a small minority. A vote against could not be
recorded.

>As you know, to enact edicts is one of his
> powers.

- one of which elevated you to the Senate, of course. I understand your
gratitude and your loyalty to your patronus is commendable (abstractly), but
we trust our magistrates not to abuse their powers. I shall be contending,
to the Praetor Urbanus, that he has so abused his powers.


>So, if you don't like his work, just don't vote on him again after
> his term finishes.

- political involvement by the ordinary citizen is and should be more than
going like sheep to vote on election day, and being docile the rest of the
time. Only sheep don't vote, of course. Chickens in Nova Roma can, though...

> On the other hand, I'm sure that the Senate and the other magistrates are
> aware of the issue and so you should start bothering them all instead of
> concentrating on a single man. In fact it is the Consules, Praetores,
> Tribuni Plebis who can call the Comitia to vote, not the Censor.

- if you mean me, I was simply trying to point out to Sulla (and anyone else
interested, all at the same time) the error of his ways. A Censor can
rescind his own edicta if he is persuaded to change his mind, surely? I
still live in hope that this will happen, without my having to petition a
busy Senate etc.

> I remind you that Fimbria is not a citizen of Nova Roma, and so, why to
> discuss the problems of non-citizens? Shouldn't we discuss topics related
to
> the people of Nova Roma instead?

- The only reason Fimbria is not a citizen of NR is because she was not
allowed to be by this stupid edictum, which extends the power of the State
into people's underwear. Besides, as you well know, non-citizens are free to
post and discuss issues on this list. And, as I've said, this IS an issue
which affects everyone in NR. Our liberties can, at present, be curtailed
without need (and against international law, as you, a fellow EU citizen,
are aware) by ONE man, whose defence to date is that he is allowed to do so.

- So. Shall we discuss your chickens?

Vado.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 20:12:35 +0100

Salve Consul Audens

>My second comment for consideration is a kind of training booklet or
>reference for the Paterfamilias / Materfamilas outlining the duties and
>responsibilities of such, and the "care and feeding of a Gens." If such
>a set of guidelines are currently available either somewhere in Roman
>Literature, or in the minds of our citizens, it might be well to gather
>that information together in one place. If such is needed, I would ask
>that all references, ideas, comments and guidelines be forwarded to me.
>I will use my resources to put them together and make them available to
>NR for use as the citizens and the NR organization shall see fit.
This goes in the direction of something that I've been discussing for the
Religio. We are planning to write a set of manuals on the Religio Romana for
use by the practicioner. Of course, the duties of the paterfamilias can also
be considered. Your idea is very interesting indeed.

Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"George VanDeWater" <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=081166234150056086048038203219129208071" >vandewge@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 13:29:08 -0600

Salve,

I would be interested in both handbooks. We have been taking bits and =
pieces as we find them to guide our devotions.

Vale,
Gaius Africanus Secundus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 20:27:44 +0100

Salvete Vado et al

>> I'd like to ask my fellow citizens not to pursue the Gender discussion on
>> this list. There are a lot if sites related to transgendered and
>transexual
>> people, and that topic is no different in Nova Roma than in any other
>nation
>> of the world.
>
>- therefore we have a right to discuss it here, especially as the present
>discriminatory Edictum Censoris affects the rights of our citizens, and (as
>Fimbria's forwarding my post proved, I hope)
>such legislation is un-Roman.
Ok, if you want to discuss in these terms... (see below)

>> Don't we have more interesting and Roman-related topics to discuss?
>
>- I would have thought you would have found the gender-crossing problems of
>your co-cultist Elagabalus of some interest?
Independently of my personal opinion about the issue, a fact is a fact.
Elagabalus was very criticized by his acts and his (suposedly)trangendered
nature. He was also subject to a "damnatio memoriae".Also, I remind that the
Galli could not be Roman citizens.
Doesn't this say somrthing about how the Romans regarded trangendered
people?
I'm not saying that we should act in the same way. In fact I have often
presented my view that Fimbria should be recognised as male and the Censor
knows it for I've spoken to him many times. Nevertheless, I also respect the
opinion of the Censor.

>>As you know, to enact edicts is one of his
>> powers.
>
>- one of which elevated you to the Senate, of course.
Wrong. I was raised Senator by Flavius Vedius Germanicus.
Censor Sulla only raised my Gens to Patrician status.

>I understand your
>gratitude and your loyalty to your patronus is commendable (abstractly),
but
>we trust our magistrates not to abuse their powers. I shall be contending,
>to the Praetor Urbanus, that he has so abused his powers.
Vado, the Censor has not expelled anyone. Fimbria could have continued to be
a citizen. Ok, I admit that Fimbria would not feel good with a female name,
nevertheless, Fimbria would be a citizen with the same rights.
Where is the abuse of power?

>> On the other hand, I'm sure that the Senate and the other magistrates are
>> aware of the issue and so you should start bothering them all instead of
>> concentrating on a single man. In fact it is the Consules, Praetores,
>> Tribuni Plebis who can call the Comitia to vote, not the Censor.
>
>- if you mean me,
I don't mean you.

>I was simply trying to point out to Sulla (and anyone else
>interested, all at the same time) the error of his ways. A Censor can
>rescind his own edicta if he is persuaded to change his mind, surely? I
>still live in hope that this will happen, without my having to petition a
>busy Senate etc.
Ok, but why didn't Fimbria persuade a Praetor or a Tribune (if Fimbria was
plebeian, of course)?

>> I remind you that Fimbria is not a citizen of Nova Roma, and so, why to
>> discuss the problems of non-citizens? Shouldn't we discuss topics related
>to
>> the people of Nova Roma instead?
>
>- The only reason Fimbria is not a citizen of NR is because she was not
>allowed to be by this stupid edictum, which extends the power of the State
>into people's underwear.
"Not allowed" is not correct.

>Besides, as you well know, non-citizens are free to
>post and discuss issues on this list. And, as I've said, this IS an issue
>which affects everyone in NR. Our liberties can, at present, be curtailed
>without need (and against international law, as you, a fellow EU citizen,
>are aware) by ONE man, whose defence to date is that he is allowed to do
so.
Ok.

>- So. Shall we discuss your chickens?
=|

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"Pixie" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=197028131056056135172082190036" >pyxee@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 15:38:10 -0400

Turia Apollonia C Mario Merullo et omnibus SPD

>At this stage in Nova Roma's development, wherein we are growing by means
of
>applications received over the Internet, it seems to me that the type of
>growth most conducive to building a real community begins with inclusive,
>cohesive gentes.

I realize I am a new cives and should not speak yet, but I feel I have
something important and valuable to say to the community. I strongly agree
with the above. Before joining NR, I carefully examined the webpage in full
and researched the lists of the censors and existing familias to decide
which I would feel most at home with. I spoke with several pater and
materfamilias to decide which gens was for me and best matched my interests.
My husband, soon to be called Gaius Minucis Lupus, did the same and we both
came to decide on different already existing gens we had a kinship with
intellectually and by whom we were shown warmth and hospitality. I also am
part of the Latinitas Sodalista and am planning on joining the cooking
sodalista.

Joining a pre-existing gens means we have experienced elders to assist our
entry into NR society and teach us what we need to know and how things work
here. It involves us more and provides new cives such as ourselves with the
expertise of the "veterans", as well as giving us a family in NR. It
definately has far more benefits than these I have seen already and these
should be promoted.


>i A historically attested Latin nomen
>ii A reason beyond the name itself for establishing the new gens. Such
>reasons could include
>- geography (few or no existing gentes within feasible meeting distance)
>- different patron deities or combination thereof


I believe these simple requirements for a new gens to be very wise and
prudent. The Romans took great pride in their gentes and so should
NeoRomani. The Romans were organized in groups and that value of teamwork,
loyalty, friendship, religion, shared experience and the sense of community
within a larger community should be enforced, or at least encouraged, in my
humble opinion.

Valete,

Turia Apollonia Sulpicia Minucia

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 16:15:47 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Turia Apollonia Sulpicia Minucia et alli;

Just a small correction regarding your last posted message. "Proposed"
Latinis Sodalitas, There is another Sodalitas also being proposed
called the "Outreach Sodalitas" You may not be aware of this, but a new
Sodalitas' must be "proposed" to the Senate for approval in order to be
an NR Sodalitas.

It is my understanding that the proposed Latinus Sodalitas will soon be
forwarded to the Consuls for review, at which time if they meet the
Consular requirements, will be placed on the Senate Agenda List for the
next Senate call sometime in May hopefully.

My main reason for pointing this out is that I have recieved several
inquiries from NR citizens asking how to join this Sodalitas, which is
not yet in existance. I ask all those who have contacted me about this
topic to please contact this lady. I have not yet seen the proposal.
My thanks to you for your kind attention, and your patience with my
small correction.

Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	Guido Costantini <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 22:17:50 +0200

At 14.44 16/05/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I am not proposing to ban new gentes, nor to put some kind of artificial
>quota on their establishment. What I have been doing thus far is
>encouraging new applicants who, through errors in applications, demonstrate
>a lack of familiarity with us, to join existing gentes. An incidental
>benefit of this approach for an applicant who is having trouble is the
>reduction by one in the number of names that he/she has to choose, which can
>be a problem for some applicants. I also encourage any applicants seeking
>to establish new gentes with non-Latin nomina to choose an existing gens.
>Clearly, particularly in light of previous edicta, the office of censor is
>to apply some linguistic standard to the choice of new citizens' names. It
>follows reasonably, in my view, that the acceptance of new gentes should
>pass some criteria, that may be similar to the following:


Talking as a member of the list who is not yet a citizen and thus has not
yet joined a gens, I'd suggest, before taking any act, to be sure that the
gentes you have are active and/or still alive and/or, more important,
interested in getting new members... I've tried for a whole month to reach
any of the gentes theorically located in the provincia Italia, looking to
join them rather than making one on my own... what happened was no result
at all but a number of unanswered emails and two not working emails addies
reported to the webmaster

regards

GC

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"Pixie" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=197028131056056135172082190036" >pyxee@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 16:23:30 -0400

Salvete-

Just a small correction regarding your last posted message. "Proposed"
Latinis Sodalitas, There is another Sodalitas also being proposed
called the "Outreach Sodalitas"

Oh, I am so sorry <wince>

I was aware that is was still in it's creation, but was not sure fully of
how approval was done. Thank you Marcus Audens for correcting me. In time,
I'll learn:)

Turia Apollonia

**************************
Randi "Pixie" Bruner
#9603-040 Bete SA
"Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea." -Robert A. Heinlein
**************************

Subject:	Re: Electronic Journal of Mithraic Studies
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 16:24:43 -0400

Salvete Antoni Grylle et alii

Congratulations on bringing this to fruition.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
>The Electronic Journal of Mithraic Studies (EJMS) is the result of several
>months of planning in colaboration with some of the best scholars of the
>Mithraic Mysteries. It all started with an informal conversation between me
>and Prof. Jaime Alvar from the University of Huelva, Spain. After gathering
>a few more experts, an Editorial Board was formed.
>The EJMS is now based in the University of Huelva and has just lauched the
>first Call for Papers which I send below. Our aim for the short/middle term
>is to be the main Internet resource of material for the study of the
>Mithraic Mysteries.

Subject:	Re: Request for comments on censorial policy
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 16:42:29 EDT

Salvete,

Most profound thanks to our new Censor, Merullus, for asking for general
input on a situation that will affect the Citizens of Nova Roma. Much easier
to test the waters first before making a decision that is binding on us all.

The creation of new Gens IS something for consideration. It makes sense that
we neither want to be overrun with gens consisting of one or two people, or
to completely limit the freedom of choice for new Citizens.

The efforts that are so far being made also sound reasonable. If a new person
is totally unfamiliar (no pun intended) with the Gentes, it makes sense for
the Censors to help them into an existing gens where they can learn about the
Roman system without pressure. It also makes sense that there should be some
further restrictions on how and why a new gens may be formed.

Surely there should be a reason for forming a gens besides simply wanting a
name. Geography is a valid enough reason. Religious mix of patron deities (or
a mix of other interests) also seems a good cause for family division. I
personally am a little less sure about a historical precedent of a name...
there are surely many thousands of historical names that simply didn't make
it into the records. Why rebuild only those families who were lucky enough to
make it into the history books, inscriptions, etc. ? ;)

Here are a few other thoughts about possible Gens qualifications. Perhaps
they'll be of interest for continuing discussion...

1. How about a numerical quota? No new gens to be formed unless one is
bringing in a total of three new people? That would eliminate one and two
people Gens from being formed, and hopefully boost Citizenship as well. (We
might even let people join singly, but if they don't add two new people
within six months, their Gens would be dissolved and they would need to join
a larger existing Gens.)

2. Required website? Suppose no one would be allowed to start a Gens unless
they put up a website somewhere about their Gens and its information - with a
link back to Nova Roma. This would help to publicize NR, as well as give
people more opportunity to check various existing Gens. We could recommend
GeoCities, etc. as free websites, and possibly even make free website artwork
available somewhere, and a set of guidelines for site content. (Gens name,
patron deities, when formed, etc...)

3. Activity requirement for Pater/Materfamilias? It seems reasonable that
those wanting the responsibility of heading a Gens should also hold some
community responsibility. Families were a major basis for Roman society, and
having quiet and inactive families must surely be limiting Nova Roma in some
respects. Perhaps responsibilities can be tied together? Activity on the
Provincial level at least? As Proconsul of the Nova Britannia Provincia, I'd
be thrilled if anyone wanting to start a new Gens was at least introduced to
me to find out if there's something going on regionally.

4. Registration fee? (Sure, this has no chance, but I can't help but bring it
up.) Citizenship is free in Nova Roma. We have no taxes. Should proclaiming
ones self the head of a family also require no investment to Nova Roma?
Suppose starting a gens required a one-time $10.00 (U.S. equivalent) fee. At
least some sort of regular money would be going to Nova Roma, and it wouldn't
be a perennial burden. This is perhaps one privilege that might not be
considered "basic" and might be considered worth paying for. (Ducking for
cover amid the howls of protest...)

I'm sure there are problems with all those proposals, but they all seem to
have a possibility of limiting the creation of new Gens without setting
quotas, and to help build NR in the process. If none of these specific
thoughts are practical perhaps it's at least a general line of thought to
consider.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

Subject:	Sulla, Gender Edict, etc.
From:	"Doug Barr" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114015211254158209218218186036129208" >dhkbarr@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 12:57:53 -0700

Salvete Omnes,

I've read a number of postings over the last few weeks, seen a number of
citizens leave Nova Roma, and witnessed both greatness and pettiness of
spirit among the citizenry. Here are my "newly-minted" (I am, after all, a
rather new citizen) two sestertii.

My initial contact with Nova Roma was, as it is for most people, the
web-site. I read, read some more, found myself very interested. As a Pagan
who is primarily Reconstructionist in outlook and focus, the reconstruction
of the Religio Romana is of great interest to me; as a "mad linguist"
(Acadianus Draco, at least, will recognize the type) I am beginning to fall
genuinely in love with the clarity and precision of the Latin language.

After looking over the web-site I wrote privately to Censor Sulla, whose
reply was astonishingly quick and very courteous. He answered my questions
as best he could, had the honesty to admit when he did not know the answer
to a question, and seemed genuinely pleased to receive my letter.

It is in very large part directly due to the tone and content of Censor
Sulla's reply to me that I requested and received Nova Roman citizenship.
Further, I believe his work to be time-consuming, not particularly "fun,"
and absolutely vital to the continued existence of Nova Roma. Someone,
citizens, has to do the "grunt work" of keeping the Alba up to date,
removing defunct citizens and adding newly joined ones. I am satisfied --
particularly with his reminder that he has recently added 60 new citizens to
the rolls -- that Censor Sulla is doing an able and admirable job.

However, it is quite possible for good people to make bad decisions -- I
believe myself to be, on the whole, a good and reasonably virtuous sort of
person, and the gods know I've made some bad decisions in my time. I believe
the *current* wording of the infamous edict to be a bad decision.

I also believe that tying the gender of a citizen's Roman name to the gender
specified by the citizen's civic identity in his or her jurisdiction of
residence, as suggested by M. Apollonius Formosanus, is a just and
reasonable solution. It takes the onus of determination off of Nova Roma, if
nothing else, and does Nova Roma not have other things to worry about? It
may not be a *perfect* compromise -- but then, the nature of compromises is
that they are imperfect -- and may not please everyone, but I think it is a
just and humane position.

You may say that this discussion is being furthered by L. Marius Fimbria,
and that we should ignore it because Fimbria is not a citizen. I think that
point of view is short-sighted -- this issue is not going to just go away on
any permanent basis until it is solved, whether we wish it to or no.

But I repeat -- it was Censor Sulla's courteous reply to me that convinced
me to join Nova Roma, and it is his hard work that has kept the Alba Gentium
Civiumque up to date, and he deserves the thanks of the citizens of Nova
Roma for that work.

With respect to names: I note on the Album Gentium the existence of a gens
"Catamitia." With all due respect to the Pater Familias, one Gaius Catamitus
Germanicus, I confess that I find it odd that a name meaning "catamite" (for
those without dictionaries handy, a catamite is the passive or receptive
partner in anal intercourse between men) is considered as having sufficient
Roman dignitas, on the basis of its grammatical congruence with its holder's
biological gender, to pass unquestioned. Aside from the Romans' very strong
bias against citizens taking the passive role (slaves, yes; barbarians, yes;
youths, maybe; adult citizens, no no no), which may or may not be considered
anachronistic but must be recognized, that name goes beyond advertising
sexual preference or orientation to advertising specific proclivities.

I am, as I've said, a "wild Northerner," and I probably always will be. I
doubt that I will ever be *fully* "Romanized" to the point of forsaking all
other identities, I'm too aware of my being a "Celt" -- specifically, a
Gael -- and I'm lucky enough to be able both to start learning Latin and to
continue studying Gaelic at the same time. So, no doubt, I'll always be
stepping on someone's toes, at least from time to time.

There are very many things about Nova Roma -- and about Antiqua Roma, for
that matter -- that I admire and respect very much. There are also certain
things that I do not admire and do not respect. Nevertheless, the balance is
very much in the positive and I am pleased to be counted a citizen. As a
citizen, as someone who has voluntarily joined an organization, I believe it
my duty to offer my loyalty and whatever help I can to that organization --
if there should ever come a point when I cannot offer that loyalty and that
help (such as it is), then it will be time for me to consider giving up my
citizenship.

That time is not yet. I do, however, make a distinction between considered
acceptance and obedience on the one hand, and blind faith on the other; I
respect and obey the laws of Nova Roma because it is my duty as a Nova Roman
citizen to do so, but I will question those laws when and if I perceive them
to be unjust -- and in that case I will work, *through lawful channels*,
towards their change.

Finally, I wish to add my voices to those thanking the gods of Rome for
Censor Sulla's safe return from hospital.

Valete omnes,
C. Albivs Gadelicvs

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 16:55:04 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Turia Appolonia;

Apologies are not necessary my dear. Both you and your husband have
already shown considerable wisdom and care in situating yourself in NR
and we expect more of the same in the future as you become more
aquainted with us. It is how we learn, and you would be quite amused, I
am sure, to know how many times I have been corrected. (There are still
those who do not think I have it all quite right, even yet!!!!!! (Grin)

Vale; Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

Subject:	Publishing in Roma
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 16:59:38 EDT

<< My second comment for consideration is a kind of training booklet >>
Salvete
I believe that we need booklets for everything when it comes to Rome.
We are following ancient practices and traditions that are available only to
we select few who have the knowledge by reading Latin originals or reading
the secondary sources. Not everybody here can do the first or have access to
the second.

So now comes the "ask not what NR can do for you..." speech.
Part of our sacred duty as the keeper of the Roman tradition is dissimulate
correct information about our ancient ancestor. That means we must spread
the information.
What better way then through a series of booklets and Pamphlets?
Sure they can be downloadable available on the web site, but what if we
published them as well? At the Museum we have seven publications on various
aspects of the civil war. All run around three bucks. I have access to a
printer, I edit two newsletters that he prints now. We could sell them
through the Macellum, even non NR citizens could be interested.
So that means we would need help from our knowledgeable citizens, organizing
the material and someone to oversee the collection of it. We are not at that
point yet, but I'd like to start the journey by taking this small step.
Therefore all citizens and non citizens interested in helping out this
project, please contact me off list and state your specialty in Roman history
and traditions.
E-m--------me --------lt;--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=123128253254152209112223066056114253071048139" >globprodnt@--------</--------;.
Thank your for your attention
Valete Q. Fabius Maximus

Subject:	Re: Request for comments on censorial policy (verifying status)
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 17:10:40 EDT

In a message dated 5/16/00 12:18:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=081166234150056086048038203219129208071" >vandewge@--------</a> write--------r>
<< The point then is; do we need to identify those gens that are not active
or no longer interested and remove them. Can we make an effort to recommend
to new applicants gens within their Province that are accpeting new members?
>>

Salvete,

This is something that definitely needs to be done. Almost from the time of
founding, the Censors have had their hands full just processing *new*
Citizens and Gentes. There has been in essence no time to keep information
current.

The addition of Censorial Scribes in the last year surely has taken at least
some burden off the office of Censor. Also, our Curule Aedile, M. Octavius
Germanicus, has also been in process of introducing means to make some of the
more tedius Censorial duties (updating the Gentse list for instance) fully
automated. Hopefully soon there will be enough available Censorial Staff for
the process of verifying who is "active" or "non-active" to be started!
Surely it's a task that is more pressing than weeding out who has given
"complete" or "non-complete" info... finding out whether a person is still
among us or not seems most important as a first step.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

Subject:	from the grand office of the most holy toad
From:	w--------am wheeler <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 14:18:54 -0700

Salve
How can philosophy,actions of a senior magistrate be not something this
list "should talk about"
Vale

Subject:	Re: Publishing in Roma
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 17:18:51 EDT

Salvete,

Just to add to Q. Fabius comments... I run one of the two copy centers owned
by my family, so Nova Roma already has an in-house shop for this kind of
thing! We have complete printing services, and can do professional soft-cover
bookbinding. If anyone wants to publish anything for Nova Roma, I can do it
with no difficulty. I can print from electronic files as well as hard-copy
masters, and do some limited design work if necessary to make a project
happen.

Items purely for Nova Roma I can do for free (or next to free if it's a huge
project). I'd need to charge cost for items going into the Macellum for a
writer wanting to join the Ordo Equester, but that would still be negligible
compared to open market prices. Nova Roma definitely needs to begin
publishing!!

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

In --------ss--------d-------- 5/16/00 2:01:16 PM P--------ic D--------ght Time, <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061044104089235135169082190036" >sfp55@--------</--------;
writes:

<< So now comes the "ask not what NR can do for you..." speech.
Part of our sacred duty as the keeper of the Roman tradition is dissimulate
correct information about our ancient ancestor. That means we must spread
the information.
What better way then through a series of booklets and Pamphlets?
Sure they can be downloadable available on the web site, but what if we
published them as well? At the Museum we have seven publications on various
aspects of the civil war. All run around three bucks. I have access to a
printer, I edit two newsletters that he prints now. We could sell them
through the Macellum, even non NR citizens could be interested.
So that means we would need help from our knowledgeable citizens, organizing
the material and someone to oversee the collection of it. We are not at
that
point yet, but I'd like to start the journey by taking this small step.
Therefore all citizens and non citizens interested in helping out this
project, please contact me off list and state your specialty in Roman
history
and traditions.
E-m--------me --------lt;--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=123128253254152209112223066056114253071048139" >globprodnt@--------</--------;.
Thank your for your attention
Valete Q. Fabius Maximus
>>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 23:31:57 +0200

Ave Guido Constantini,

I'm a quite new citizen of Nova Roma. At the beginning, not knowing exactly
what was the true purpose of the micro-nation, I applied for citizenship
only because of my strong interest in ancient Roman civilization. After
reading day after day the mails on the list, I came to really appreciate the
exchanges, even if I'm not very active for the moment. I took the
opportunity to proove myself usefull by working now on the french
translation of the NR website with the Nova Roman Scriptor.

Considering the problem of the growing number of new gens, I must admit I
quite instinctively created mine without really examining if any of the
existing ones were "suitable" for me, so I'm guilty in a way. As a matter of
fact, I simply looked after a gens in my province, which is Gallia (France).
I think there are three of them located in France, which seamed not very
numerous to me. I then decided to add one.
Besides, I do agree with the suggestion of encouraging new citizens to join
an existing gens, and I think I should have done so. It is undoudtfully the
best way to have a really sense of community within Nova Roma.
But anyway, now that my gens exists, I want it to keep on going. In my
sense, the only way for this purpose is, first to be personnaly more active
in the NR activities, second to accept new members in my gens.

That's why I propose you to join it if you wish to. We may get in touch in
order to exchange our points of view, and if it prooves to suit you, I'll
welcome you with pleasure. Even if we're not living in the same Province,
we're not located very far (especially regarding US distance standards for
instance). Besides, I really love Italia and have several opportunities to
go there regularly. I would be delighted to welcome an Italian member in my
gens.

Keep in touch, you can emai-------- at &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>

Salve,
Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Paterfamilias of Gens Queria








----- Original Message -----
From: Guido Costantini <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy


> At 14.44 16/05/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >I am not proposing to ban new gentes, nor to put some kind of artificial
> >quota on their establishment. What I have been doing thus far is
> >encouraging new applicants who, through errors in applications,
demonstrate
> >a lack of familiarity with us, to join existing gentes. An incidental
> >benefit of this approach for an applicant who is having trouble is the
> >reduction by one in the number of names that he/she has to choose, which
can
> >be a problem for some applicants. I also encourage any applicants
seeking
> >to establish new gentes with non-Latin nomina to choose an existing gens.
> >Clearly, particularly in light of previous edicta, the office of censor
is
> >to apply some linguistic standard to the choice of new citizens' names.
It
> >follows reasonably, in my view, that the acceptance of new gentes should
> >pass some criteria, that may be similar to the following:
>
>
> Talking as a member of the list who is not yet a citizen and thus has not
> yet joined a gens, I'd suggest, before taking any act, to be sure that the
> gentes you have are active and/or still alive and/or, more important,
> interested in getting new members... I've tried for a whole month to reach
> any of the gentes theorically located in the provincia Italia, looking to
> join them rather than making one on my own... what happened was no result
> at all but a number of unanswered emails and two not working emails addies
> reported to the webmaster
>
> regards
>
> GC
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> High long distance bills are HISTORY! Join beMANY!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4164/6/_/61050/_/958508533/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4164/6/_/61050/_/958508533/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Subject:	Re: from the grand office of the most holy toad
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 21:27:59 -0000

Excellent point, Cornelius Felix.
C. Aelius Ericius

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, william wheeler wuffa@i... wrote:
> Salve
> How can philosophy,actions of a senior magistrate be not something
this
> list "should talk about"
> Vale

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 853
From:	Megas-Rob--------n <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 16:40:45 -0500

Avete Omnes,

Venator Scripsit,

>
> Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:44:06 -0400
> From: "RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
> Subject: Request for comments on censorial policy
>
> Salvete Omnes
>
> I would welcome some input from the public on a matter of censorial policy
> that may or may not become the subject of a future edictum, depending on the
> positions of my colleague and me, and on the opinions of the Senate and
> People. The matter has important implications for the development of Nova
> Roma's sense of community, electoral system and growth.
>
> (excision) in my view, that the acceptance of new gentes should
> pass some criteria, that may be similar to the following:
>
> i A historically attested Latin nomen
> ii A reason beyond the name itself for establishing the new gens. Such
> reasons could include
> - geography (few or no existing gentes within feasible meeting distance)
> - different patron deities or combination thereof
>
> Again, I hope to hear some opinions on this matter for my colleague and me
> to take into account as we deliberate on this matter in the near future.
>
> Valete
>
> C Marius Merullus
> Censor Suffectus
>

If I may offer myself as an example of ii. Within Nova Roma I was first known as Stephanus
Ullerius. Stephanus being a "Romanized" of Stephanos, the Greek version of my given name, Steven.
Ullerius coming from the Patron of my Gens, UllR, Bow God and Beast Slayer of the Nordic pantheon.
As my religious identity evolved, I took on a new Faith name within the Heathen Community,
Piparskegg UllRsson Veithmathur (Pepperbeard Uller's son, a huntsman) which I "Latinized" to
Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator (Venii for short). A few Romans have told me that this was a good
attempt at trying to maintain my "Northern-ness" while living amongst Romans.

So, in essense, I am in favor of guidelines for Gens names such as the above. They do leave ample
room for creating new Gens to fit the Cives.

mea sententia

In Amicus sub Fidelis - Venii

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions
From:
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 22:42:03 +0100

Salve mi Graece,

Mihi respondisti:

> >such legislation is un-Roman.
> Ok, if you want to discuss in these terms... (see below)

> >- I would have thought you would have found the gender-crossing problems
of
> >your co-cultist Elagabalus of some interest?
> Independently of my personal opinion about the issue, a fact is a fact.
> Elagabalus was very criticized by his acts and his (suposedly)trangendered
> nature. He was also subject to a "damnatio memoriae".

- would I be doing you an injustice to infer from this that a damnatio
memoriae is what you would like to do with Fimbria? For so it seems to me.

Besides, Elagabalus was cited by Dominic Monserrat in 'Reading Gender in the
Roman World', as a person exemplifying what would be a gender-definitional
problem for modern societies, and which was not a problem for the Romans. A
moral assessment of Elagabalus as emperor is, ipso facto, irrelevant to the
discussion here, I think.

>Also, I remind that the
>Galli could not be Roman citizens.

- but the Vestales were. Hermaphrodites could be. Homosexuals could be
(except Galli). I believe eunuchs could, too. Monserrat contends, inter
alia, that what bothered the Romans about transgender issues was the legal
aspect of progeny. Do read the book - I promise you you'll enjoy the
information and primary sources quoted, whether you agree with the
conclusions or not.

> Doesn't this say somrthing about how the Romans regarded trangendered
> people?

- I think it says something about the way the Romans regarded the Galli, who
are a pretty extreme bunch. To a Roman, A Vestal is equally transgendered.
Roman evaluation of what we call 'gender', and what they did not even have a
word for, is all to do with social status, not biological gender.

> I'm not saying that we should act in the same way. In fact I have often
> presented my view that Fimbria should be recognised as male and the Censor
> knows it for I've spoken to him many times. Nevertheless, I also respect
the
> opinion of the Censor.

- You can respect the opinion of Censor Sulla, and yet fight for Fimbria's
moral right to be known in NR as male, until it becomes a legal right. Why
allow your beliefs to be overridden by the positional authority of someone
you believe to be wrong in this matter? I don't understand.

> I was raised Senator by Flavius Vedius Germanicus.
> Censor Sulla only raised my Gens to Patrician status.

- Me inepte! Please forgive the error. I tend to see Senators as patricians
(an historian's habit, I guess).

> Vado, the Censor has not expelled anyone.

- I have not accused Censor Sulla of expelling anyone; rather, I have said
that if it weren't for that edictum perditum, one brilliant wit and augur,
one excellent Latinist and military historian, and one who could have done
much for NR's outreach in Gallia Belgica andin liaison with the Pagan
Federation International, are no longer with us. He has planted a tree which
has borne nothing but poisonous fruit.

Q. Fabius Maximus informs me that the Senate is to debate the edictum: I
hope, notwithstanding your respect for Censor Sulla's opinion and
auctoritas, you will stand by your expressed beliefs as to Fimbria's right
to choose her gender when the Senate debates the matter.

>Fimbria could have continued to be
> a citizen. Ok, I admit that Fimbria would not feel good with a female
name,
> nevertheless, Fimbria would be a citizen with the same rights.

- Oh, Graece, Graece, you still can't see it, can you? Fimbria would be
denied one very important, fundamental right, not denied to all who are
contented with their outwardly biological gender.

> Where is the abuse of power?

The abuse of power was that Fimbria had a right taken away by this edict,
which was not necessary in the too-simple, too-brutal form it took. Censor
Sulla, in my opinion, should have taken more thought for the viewpoints and
sensitivities of others, and should have sought the opinions of the people
who were going to have to live under this law, or leave. He did not. He
simply issued it, because to do so was legal and that (it seems to me) was
all that mattered to Sulla at the time. I can accept that his judgement may
have been impaired by ill-health, and maybe I was too hard on him, now I
consider this possibility. But he evidently either didn't care what the
cives and the Senate thought (which I would, seriously, rather not believe),
or he thought the issue was clear-cut. Now he knows it isn't. Now, perhaps,
he will reconsider, especially if people he respects (like you) reason with
him.

> >> On the other hand, I'm sure that the Senate and the other magistrates
are
> >> aware of the issue and so you should start bothering them all instead
of
> >> concentrating on a single man. In fact it is the Consules, Praetores,
> >> Tribuni Plebis who can call the Comitia to vote, not the Censor.
> >
> >- if you mean me,
> I don't mean you.

- O what a relief!!! (:-D

> but why didn't Fimbria persuade a Praetor or a Tribune (if Fimbria was
> plebeian, of course)?

- Fimbria can best answer that, of course, but my guess is that, when your
personal, private gender
inclinations are being dragged into the public domain, you don't think
calmly and coolly about correct political procedure.

> >- The only reason Fimbria is not a citizen of NR is because she was not
> >allowed to be by this stupid edictum, which extends the power of the
State
> >into people's underwear.
> "Not allowed" is not correct.

- I say it IS correct. Fimbria is, metaphysically, more male than female.
The edictum would have forced Fimbria to enlist under an outward, biological
gender which is at variance with the real, essential Fimbria. We are not our
bodies. As a pontiff, surely you must see the point I'm trying to make?
Sulla's religious background does excuse him to some extent, but surely he
we must go by pagan Roman-inspired law, not Judaic-oriented thinking?

And you don't want to talk about Tripudium. Fine by me ;-)

Bene vale in pace,

Vado.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	Mike Ma--------r <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=174176211056207031025158175026172165098048139046" >MikeMa--------r@--------</a>
Date:	Tue, 16 May 2000 18:55:34 -0400

Salvete,

Graecus wrote,


>We are planning to write a set of manuals on the Religio Romana for
use by the practicioner. Of course, the duties of the paterfamilias can
also
be considered.<

That is a BRILLIANT idea & in many respects quite the most useful thing N=
R
could do in the next period.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister