| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions |
| From: |
Marcus Pap--------s Justus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 16 May 2000 21:25:34 -0600 |
|
As promised, an opinion of Ulpian (Dig. 1.5.10):
Ulpian, Sabinus, book I: Question: with whom is a hermaphrodite comparable?
I rather think each one should be ascribed to that sex which is prevalent
in his or her make-up.
mpj
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Request for comments on censorial policy |
| From: |
"JP" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045154104003194091033082" >jpp@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Tue, 16 May 2000 18:25:11 -0700 |
|
Salvete,
Having just formed a gens here in Califoria a month or two ago, I'd like
to speak up about Merullus' proposal.
Gens Troica, of which I am paterfamilias, is very close and we
correspond and do activities all the time. When we formed our gens, it took
a while to get all the fratres to a computer to do the citizenship. We had
four at the outset, but our applications dribbled in at the rate of one per
week or so. . .
I think that requiring a new Paterfamilias to bring forward 3 or more
others at the same time he applies is overly restrictive. It discourages
membership for little tangible gain.
My suggestion would be for the Censores and their scribes to email all
the cives asking if they're still in. That is, to take a census. I think a
lot of "dead wood" as well as the one-person gentes can be cleared up by
this.
After that, the Censores should reappraise the situation and see if
there's anything left to be done.
Something that might be done regardless is a Pater/Materfamilias
guidebook which discusses the Roman Families and what the general deal is.
Perhaps this could be part of the Civis handbook (if there were to be one).
bah. Very complicated issue with no easy answer. I'd rather discuss
chickens.
Secundus Troicus Ductor
Paterfamilias et Lanista
|
| Subject: |
Re: Gender discussions (ancient law) |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Tue, 16 May 2000 22:20:20 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/16/00 7:01:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a> wr--------:
<< As promised, an opinion of Ulpian (Dig. 1.5.10):
Ulpian, Sabinus, book I: Question: with whom is a hermaphrodite comparable?
I rather think each one should be ascribed to that sex which is prevalent
in his or her make-up.
mpj >>
Salvete,
I believe this is the historical precedence on 'third gender' from the Digest
of Roman Law from the reign of Justinian, yes? If so, I find this highly
significant. From my painfully limited knowledge of the subject, seem to
recall that this digest contained older laws as well as later ones...
If that is indeed the case, could this 'Ulpian' actually be Ulpius Marcellus
of the 2nd century, who advised the Emperor Hadrian on legal matters? I'm
assuming that the 'Sabinus' referenced is Masurius Sabinus, one of the
leading Roman lawyers from the 1st Century.
If all these are correct, it seems to point that people who were outside the
'basic two' categories of gender indeed had official legal status... and that
bearing and appearance (issues of personal decision and lifestyle rather than
genetics) were the deciding factor in legal identity in the Roman world for
at least four centuries.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 00:32:27 EDT |
|
Salve,
I have no desire in joining a site devoted to transgendered issues, and would
not have posted on the topic at all if not for the edict which I find to be
damaging to Nova Roma as a whole. Rather than join my fellow distressed
citizens in resigning over the issue, I have attempted to contribute to and
support the efforts of those who wish to persuade Sulla, through reason and
scholarly data, to rescind or at least modify his edict. If I did not think
highly of Sulla as an open-minded individual willing to listen to citizens'
constructive criticism, I would not have made the attempt. Believe me, as
soon as the edict is rescinded or modified, I'll be glad to stop talking
about gender! It shocks me that the request to stop talking about gender
followed closely on the heels of Vado's post in which he cited and quoted at
length from an academic work on gender in Ancient Rome. This is exactly the
type of effort that I thought would shed some objective light on the subject
and persuade Sulla and those who support the edict to re-think it. Perhaps
I'm being naive here?
It also surprises me to hear Fimbria dismissed as simply a non-citizen.
Surely it is more accurate to consider Fimbria a former citizen who has
contributed much to Nova Roma in the past. The loss of such a citizen seems
to be distressing to many current citizens, and rightly so. While it has
been stated that it was her choice to leave, it is also my understanding that
Fimbria did not leave simply because she was bored or too busy with other
things, but left because the actions of others, wittingly or unwittingly,
caused her to feel too uncomfortable to stay. Some responsibility needs to
be shouldered on that account.
The issue is also not something that affects just one non-citizen. It
affects the rest of us who are distressed by the edict and its consequences
for Nova Roma. It affects how Nova Roma will be perceived by potential
citizens. It affects those who are concerned about gov't intrusion into the
most personal of matters.
Vale,
Iustinia Cassia
In a message dated 5/16/0 8:39:02 AM, <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> writes:
<< Salvete omnes
I'd like to ask my fellow citizens not to pursue the Gender discussion on
this list. There are a lot if sites related to transgendered and transexual
people, and that topic is no different in Nova Roma than in any other nation
of the world.
Don't we have more interesting and Roman-related topics to discuss?
I remind you that magistrates are elected by the people. Such was the case
of Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla. As you know, to enact edicts is one of his
powers. So, if you don't like his work, just don't vote on him again after
his term finishes.
On the other hand, I'm sure that the Senate and the other magistrates are
aware of the issue and so you should start bothering them all instead of
concentrating on a single man. In fact it is the Consules, Praetores,
Tribuni Plebis who can call the Comitia to vote, not the Censor.
I remind you that Fimbria is not a citizen of Nova Roma, and so, why to
discuss the problems of non-citizens? Shouldn't we discuss topics related to
the people of Nova Roma instead?
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor
>>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 00:22:38 -0700 |
|
Salve
One of the reasons we have the Album Gentium is to have a list of active Gentes.
When one becomes inactive, I try to find out why....by contacting them. If its a
temporary inactivity, thats cool, I will leave them on..and not bother them
anymore than necessary. But if its a permanent inactivity, I have no qualms in
removing them from the Citizenship Database. I had a Gens Veleria (I believe)
that have 3 members pending pater approval but have not received any response in
over a month. That means I have tried to contact them via e-mail, phone and even
snail mail. By the end of the month, I would have removed that citizen for
failure to respond and asked the next in line if he/she wanted to be
Pater/Materfamilias.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
Guido Costantini wrote:
> At 14.44 16/05/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >I am not proposing to ban new gentes, nor to put some kind of artificial
> >quota on their establishment. What I have been doing thus far is
> >encouraging new applicants who, through errors in applications, demonstrate
> >a lack of familiarity with us, to join existing gentes. An incidental
> >benefit of this approach for an applicant who is having trouble is the
> >reduction by one in the number of names that he/she has to choose, which can
> >be a problem for some applicants. I also encourage any applicants seeking
> >to establish new gentes with non-Latin nomina to choose an existing gens.
> >Clearly, particularly in light of previous edicta, the office of censor is
> >to apply some linguistic standard to the choice of new citizens' names. It
> >follows reasonably, in my view, that the acceptance of new gentes should
> >pass some criteria, that may be similar to the following:
>
> Talking as a member of the list who is not yet a citizen and thus has not
> yet joined a gens, I'd suggest, before taking any act, to be sure that the
> gentes you have are active and/or still alive and/or, more important,
> interested in getting new members... I've tried for a whole month to reach
> any of the gentes theorically located in the provincia Italia, looking to
> join them rather than making one on my own... what happened was no result
> at all but a number of unanswered emails and two not working emails addies
> reported to the webmaster
>
> regards
>
> GC
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> High long distance bills are HISTORY! Join beMANY!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4164/6/_/61050/_/958508533/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4164/6/_/61050/_/958508533/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Diocletian Project |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=158059101122035091033" >3s@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 09:46:49 +0200 |
|
Salve, omnes.
I´m working on a website-project about the tetrarchy (Diocletian and
his fellow emperors). In a first step, the army of this time (284-305
a.d.) will be documented.
To complete my amount of literal- and web-sources about this time
and the army espacially, I would be glad if anyone of the NR
community could give me further information. This is necessary because
the sources only mention the same units.
I´m very interested in the legions founded by Diocletian and the
soldier-emperors before him, their numbers and names,
their location in the provinces and, if possible, a brief history of the
unit. Information
about the same topics regarding auxilia- and cavalry-units are also
welcome.
I know that there are only few and questionable sources about this time.
But perhaps
some of the NR community have access to further information and sources.
If you can to say something about this time and the army of
Diocletian and his fellow emperors, feel free to post or mail me.
Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Citizen of Nova Roma
|
| Subject: |
Gender Issue |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=091089014007127031215056228219114187071048139" >n_moravius@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 00:56:54 PDT |
|
Salvete Quiriti
I have been persuaded to withdraw my undertaking to present the Praetor
Urbanis with a case of 'no confidence' in Censor Sulla.
Further, I shall post no more on the gender issue on this List until the
Senate has made public its views on the edictum and the wider issues it
raises.
I can not, however, guarantee my silence when a friend is attacked on the
Main List, or the rights of non-citizens to participate in discussions on
this List are threatened.
I hope A. Gryllus Graecus will agree that we disagree, and leave it at that.
Bene valete in pace,
N. Moravius Vado.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_top" >http://www.hotmail.com</a>
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gender Issue |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 10:12:27 +0100 |
|
Salvete N. Moravi Vado et al
>I have been persuaded to withdraw my undertaking to present the Praetor
>Urbanis with a case of 'no confidence' in Censor Sulla.
I would have treated your case with impartiality, though I personally think
that accusation unfair.
>I can not, however, guarantee my silence when a friend is attacked on the
>Main List, or the rights of non-citizens to participate in discussions on
>this List are threatened.
I won't attack anyone. Besides, my statement about the non-citizenship of
Fimbria had only two reasons:
a) Like you, I also do not like to see my friends threatened or publicly
offended.
b) Fimbria defied me to get a Curator Sermonum to the list, a statement
which I took as an attack, for I'm not a tyrant and it is solution with
which I do not agree nor envisage in the near future.
As to threats, I didn't want to threaten Fimbria, and I would not expel
someone for so little.
As to the gender in Antiquity issue, I am impressed with the statement of
Ulpian.
>I hope A. Gryllus Graecus will agree that we disagree, and leave it at
that.
Not at all! We agree on the philosophical point of view. And you can be sure
that I will keep defending the recognition of Fimbria's male gender in the
Senate just as I have already done in past Senate sessions.
I just think that the Censor took the decision that seemed right for him
from the legal point of view, and as such, before putting the label of
"prejudice" on his decision, we should listen to Consul and hear his
explanations.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Gender discussions (ancient law) |
| From: |
Marcus Pap--------s Justus <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 05:59:21 -0600 |
|
Salvete,
Yes, basically what this is is a comment from Justinian's Digest, which is
basically a big cut and paste encyclopedia of the opinions of leading
jurists, most of them from the heyday of Roman law (end of the second
century - early third); the vast majority come from the writings of Ulpian,
Paul, and Papinian. In this excerpt, Ulpian is writing in a work which
commented on/reflected a work called the Ius Civile by Massurius Sabinus
(who lived during the first century A.D.). Many folks assume that just
because it is called the Digest of Justinian that it reflects only the law
of his time ... but it is full of the equivalent of what we would call
'precedents' ...
Valete,
mpj
At 10:20 PM 5/16/00 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 5/16/00 7:01:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
><a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=197166104009127132130232203026129208071" >pap--------s@--------</a> wr--------:
>
><< As promised, an opinion of Ulpian (Dig. 1.5.10):
>
> Ulpian, Sabinus, book I: Question: with whom is a hermaphrodite comparable?
> I rather think each one should be ascribed to that sex which is prevalent
> in his or her make-up.
>
> mpj >>
>
>
>Salvete,
>
>I believe this is the historical precedence on 'third gender' from the Digest
>of Roman Law from the reign of Justinian, yes? If so, I find this highly
>significant. From my painfully limited knowledge of the subject, seem to
>recall that this digest contained older laws as well as later ones...
>
>If that is indeed the case, could this 'Ulpian' actually be Ulpius Marcellus
>of the 2nd century, who advised the Emperor Hadrian on legal matters? I'm
>assuming that the 'Sabinus' referenced is Masurius Sabinus, one of the
>leading Roman lawyers from the 1st Century.
>
>If all these are correct, it seems to point that people who were outside the
>'basic two' categories of gender indeed had official legal status... and that
>bearing and appearance (issues of personal decision and lifestyle rather than
>genetics) were the deciding factor in legal identity in the Roman world for
>at least four centuries.
>
>Valete,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>Senator
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Join Garden.com's affiliate program and enjoy numerous benefits.
>To learn more click here:
><a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/2955/6/_/61050/_/958530028/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/2955/6/_/61050/_/958530028/</a>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
The Sodalitas Latinitatis |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=014130014161146028033082190" >bvm3@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 12:35:01 +0200 |
|
M. Apollonius Formosanus Omnibus Novoromanis S.P.D.
As one of the Founding Tresviri of the Latin Sodalitas, I would like to
confirm the words of Consul Audens below. We are not yet formally in
existence, and we are not accepting members just yet.
Anyone who wishes to take part in our founding discussions is welcome to
join the list <a href="mailto:LATINITAS@--------" >LATINITAS@--------</a> just as you joined this group. Much
of the discussion (as is only appropriate!) is in Latin, but we also
have summaries - at least of most organisational work - in English. We
are currently preparing our Lex Fundamentalis (a purely internal, not a
NR "lex"), i.e. our Sodality Constitution, and our proposal to the
Senate, and also doing a bit of translation work.
When the Senate has, as we hope!, approved us, we shall open the
Sodalitas to all citziens wishing to be members, after which there will
be an approval of the Lex Fundamentalis by the whole membership and an
election of regular officers.
Anyone having questions, please feel free to contact me or any of the
other members of the Founding Tresviri (of which there are four!) [My
new gens member Turia Apollonia is a new member fo the Sodalitas and not
one of the Tresviri.]
We hope soon to be serving Nova Roma!
Valete!
Marcus Mucius Audens wrote:
It is my understanding that the proposed Latinus Sodalitas will soon be
forwarded to the Consuls for review, at which time if they meet the
Consular requirements, will be placed on the Senate Agenda List for the
next Senate call sometime in May hopefully.
My main reason for pointing this out is that I have recieved several
inquiries from NR citizens asking how to join this Sodalitas, which is
not yet in existance. I ask all those who have contacted me about this
topic to please contact this lady. I have not yet seen the proposal.
My thanks to you for your kind attention, and your patience with my
small correction.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
|
| Subject: |
Senate news |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 08:34:20 EDT |
|
Salvete omnes
I come back from out of town to discover 400+ emails in my mailbox and
new activity in the Senate!
The Senate is currently discussing a proposal by Censor C. Marius
Merullus to set up rules governing the creation of new gentes. Senators
have made several constructive suggestions already.
Consul M. Minucius Audens has announced that there will soon be Senate
discussion of guidelines governing the creation of new provinces and the
appointment of praetors/propraetors of provinces.
A new citizen living currently in Kuala Lampur has applied for the
creation of an Asia Minor province.
Valete,
Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Gender Compromise |
| From: |
"Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045166091007146202033082190" >jaro@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 08:46:29 -0500 |
|
Salvete,
I haven't followed this discussion very closely and there is a discussion
board
"soc.support.transgendered" which can help to provide valuable insight to
those interested in increasing ones knowledge in the complex matter of
Gender Identity. (if you can sift through some of the spamming and religious
right and adolecent flames which do nothing to aid in understanding).
In our traditional western belief system most people find it necessary that
ones gender as either male or female is a role prescribed by ones genetic
sex.
Recent academic and medical study of gender issues, however is finding that
this is not really the case.
Current western belief is that Sex (ones biological form) and Gender are
separate things and do not necessarily equate.
Another key point to keep in mind is that Sex and Gender (using the terms
defined in the preceding sentence) have nothing to do with Sexual Attraction
(i.e. Hetero, Homo, Bi, etc). Meaning that a Male to Female Transgender
might be a Lesbian (and a great deal are) so "catamite" is probably not an
appropriate term for her.
----
My compromise to this edict, as I feel we can work within it:
If a citizen of Nova Roma wishes to present oneself as a woman on the board
and during Nova Roma functions, then that citizen should take the feminine
form of name, regardless of their birth sex. I don't need to tell you that
the same is true for one wishing to present as a man.
Most transgenders do this in the other society by checking the box of the
gender they feel they are, change their name and gender on their Drivers
License (even if they are not planning on going through with Sex
Reassignment Surgery).
----
I have not figured out a compromise for those who identify as
Hermaphrodites/Androgynes, but as we all know how unfair the simplistic
notion of Male and Female are, and how much above simplicity and the mundane
we as citizens of Nova Roma are, I am certain that we will be capable of
working the system to accomodate them and without dividing the citizenry.
Perhaps we could form a religious cult for them?
Valete,
Drusus Aeneas Apollonius Cygnus
To hear the latest single from Green Pyramids - Minneapolis power-pop trio:
visit our express sites at:
<a href="http://www.mp3.com/GreenPyramids" target="_top" >http://www.mp3.com/GreenPyramids</a>
<a href="http://greenpyramids.iuma.com" target="_top" >http://greenpyramids.iuma.com</a>
then come to our homepage at:
<a href="http://www2.bitstream.net/~jaro/greenp.html" target="_top" >http://www2.bitstream.net/~jaro/greenp.html</a>
|
| Subject: |
Clients |
| From: |
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 11:25:58 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Valete, Omes;
I would like to address you on the topic matter for a moment. I
recieved some disturbing news yesterday, from very good authority, that
some citizens have referred to those who assist me in the tasks of
government as "clients." This was and is incorrect and which I would
like to set straight immediately.
Some here in Nova Roma have misunderstood my relationship with some
friends whom I have requested to assist me in carrying out my duties in
NR as your Consul. These friends assist me in a variety of ways to your
advantage and to mine in caring for the responsibilities that you have
deposited in my hands.
These citizens assist me because it is their choice to do so, and
because I like to think we have developed a certain affection for each
other. At least that is so in my case. These people are not my
"Clients!!!!" I am not impressed with the word, I do not care about the
ancient meaning of the word, and I do not recognize the word in relation
to those who assist me. I very sincerely ask that you grant me this
request, that that term will not be used in relation to either me or
those who assist me in the future.
I am very privelaged to be able to serve NR as your Consul, a task to
which you elected me, and one which I am most honored to serve in to the
best of my ability, and in order to do the best job of which I am able,
I need to be able to ask the assistance of citizens for the tasks before
me, without the threat of a questionable label being affixed to them. I
thank you for your most kind attention to this request.
Valete, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Gender Issue (Painless, I promise!) |
| From: |
Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 12:28:45 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salvete omnes!
The senior Consul has informed me that the results of my research have
been deemed sufficient to warrant debate on the matter by the Senate.
(I will be sending copies of the actual documentation to those who have
requested it.) That being the case, I shall be more than happy to
submit said material and let the Senate get on with its work;
occasional glitches like my name-change aside, I have (and have had)
more basic confidence in Nova Roma's governing institutions than ever
before, and I believe considerable good will result from this Senate
session regardless of the outcome of this particular issue.
I do feel the need to clarify a couple of things before bringing the
Main List portion of my presentation to a close. There has been some
question as to why I am even involving myself in this issue, as I am no
longer a Citizen (and indeed laid down my Citizenship a month before
the infamous Edict took effect). Simply put, I asked to be stricken
from the rolls after Sulla Censor denied my request to have my Roman
name changed from 'Lucia Maria' to 'Lucius Marius' Fimbria for reasons
of gender identity. Yet even in my departure letter I made clear my
intention to return as soon as it became possible for me to do so as a
male, and to remain involved with Nova Roma to the greatest extent
possible even in the meantime. I have never lost faith in this
organization and its mission, and shall not do so.
The 'Gender Edict' itself is merely the public extension of the
Censor's ruling in my case, the solidification of private rule-of-thumb
into public policy. As such, it was not responsible for my departure;
however, it is the only thing on Nova Roma's end which might delay my
return. (On my end, there are a few projects and a bit of healing to
be completed before I will want to re-enter the fray.) >({|8-)
Does it make sense now...? I never wanted to be an ex-Citizen; but I
could not remain a Citizen as the situation then stood, so I backed out
until things could hopefully change for the better. As soon as I can
reapply without breaking any laws, I will. While the Edict stands, I
cannot do this; so I've fought the Edict.
A question also came up regarding whether or not I might have tried to
get something resolved via the Praetores. In fact I did attempt to do
this. Immediately after the Censor made his decision, he presented it
to the Senate--why, I do not know; as he has been fond of saying, it
was already decided...and I saw no point in dragging the Senate into
what had been a private affair, or my private affairs into the Senate.
During the debate that followed, I asked the Senate (and in particular
the Praetores) their opinion as to whether I had sustained an _iniuria_
under Nova Roman law...*not*, initially, because of Sulla's decision,
but because he had chosen to involve the Senate! I heard back from
just about everybody except the Praetores; but as the consensus was
that no _iniuria_ had taken place, I let that part of it drop.
On that note, I should point out that I do not feel 'attacked' by
anything Antonius Graecus or anyone else has said in this Forum
discussion. I am not quick to take offense, being blessed with a
rather thick hide; I suppose that's one reason Germanicus Dictator
asked me to moderate the List, way back when; and I don't often let a
difference of political opinion keep me from respecting someone or
being their friend. By the same token, if my words or actions here
have given offense to anyone, I ask their forgiveness. I have not
meant to be harsh.
In closing, I wish to express my appreciation and deep gratitude to
those who have posted on my behalf. I have been touched and moved by
many of the things written in my defense, the obvious trouble that
people have gone to in digging up obscure references, the high regard
in which I seem to be held, and the concern on all sides for my
happiness in Nova Roma or out of it. I am reminded yet again of the
one undisputed benefit of my association here: the friendships I have
made; these I get to keep regardless of my Citizenship status, and I
carry them with me even while temporarily 'benched'. For these,
somehow, 'thanks' is not enough; but it's what I've got, and I'm
willing to share.
Cum magnae gratiae, then; and for the rest of NR, my apologies for
being a bother...I'll go sit down quietly now like a good little 'Civis
quondam Civisque futurus'! >({|;-)
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'
|
| Subject: |
Re: Old topics |
| From: |
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045232113165042200148200112241225012177026038196249130152150" >jmath669642reng@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 14:54:19 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Gaius Marius Cethigus;
As with most new member's ideas yours has a good deal of value.
However, at the moment, one of the more significant problems in Nova
Roma is to find a way to archive all these excellent ideas by date,
subject, priority, and magistrate or department until such time as we
can find someone who will be able to actually carry out these ideas to
fruitation. I and my colleague thank you for your input, however, and
wish you well on the success of your application.
Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
|
| Subject: |
Re: Request for comments on censorial policy |
| From: |
"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 15:34:04 -0400 |
|
Salvete Secunde Troice et alii
>
> I think that requiring a new Paterfamilias to bring forward 3 or more
>others at the same time he applies is overly restrictive. It discourages
>membership for little tangible gain.
I don't think that it would discourage membership. It would discourage the
generation of gentes (too bad there's no alliteration there, English
consonants have gone astray).
>
> My suggestion would be for the Censores and their scribes to email all
>the cives asking if they're still in. That is, to take a census. I think
a
>lot of "dead wood" as well as the one-person gentes can be cleared up by
>this.
A census is a good idea, but not for the purpose of excising "dead wood".
What does all the "dead wood" cost us? There may possibly be little benefit
in allowing inactive people to remain in Nova Roma, but surely the effort of
hunting them down and exiling them is, at the least, a massive waste of
time. It may also cost us, literally. People who are inactive today may
not be so a year from now. And, while they are inactive, they have
generally no net effect on Nova Roma whatsoever, as far as I can tell. Or
am I missing something?
The only instance known to me when "dead wood" becomes a problem is when the
inactive person is the head of a gens. This state has to be altered in each
case, as my colleague has already pointed out. The process of enrolling
citizens into existing gentes promotes this alteration, if not entirely
systematically, in that, heads of gentes who do not respond to censorial
requests to contact an applicant can be found to be inactive, and, after a
reasonable waiting period, can be replaced by other members of their gentes.
But, it should be clear that, even in these cases, we censores would not be
hunting people down and attempting to punish them, we would merely be
ensuring that the heads of families were able to attend one of their primary
responsibilities -- reacting to applications to join their gentes.
>
> After that, the Censores should reappraise the situation and see if
>there's anything left to be done.
There will be plenty left to do, as long as we are able to keep the Republic
going and people want to join us.
>
> Something that might be done regardless is a Pater/Materfamilias
>guidebook which discusses the Roman Families and what the general deal is.
>Perhaps this could be part of the Civis handbook (if there were to be one).
Excellent idea. Unfortunately, I feel that the immediate duties of the
censor office, in addition to my efforts elsewhere in Nova Roma, prevent me
from even considering contributing to handbooks like these. The only
handbook that I shall be able to undertake this year is the censors
handbook, and in that I'll be collaborating with my colleague and relying to
a large extent on my scriba, T Labienus Fortunatus. I wish you well in this
endeavor.
>
> bah. Very complicated issue with no easy answer. I'd rather discuss
>chickens.
Are you sure? I think that the chicken question is a multifaceted,
potentially explosive one.
>
> Secundus Troicus Ductor
> Paterfamilias et Lanista
C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus
|
| Subject: |
ROMAN DAYS INFO |
| From: |
|
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 15:37:27 EDT |
|
Salvete,
The following information is the latest announcement posted by the Matthew
Amt of the (20th??) Legion, in Maryland. Patricia Cassia and I will
definitely be attending this year, and hopefully lots of other Nova Roma
citizens will be there also!
Perhaps we might want to take some sort of head count of who's going, and try
to coordinate hotels, at least one NR meeting, etc??
Vale,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
*************************
ROMAN DAYS
Roman Days is coming up fast! (Ack! I'm not ready!!) The date is June
10-11, and the place, as before, is Marietta Mansion, Glenn Dale, MD.
Military and civilian living history displays/camps will be lined up on the
upper lawn near the house, with merchants and educational static displays
down on the field ("Forum") as before. A large area will be roped off for
tactical displays, weapon demonstrations, and other activities. There will
be some new activities aimed mostly at children, such as mosaic-making, Bean
the Barbarian, and the "Kids' Cohort" (teaching them to drill with cardboard
shields). Obviously we want as many Romans as we can get, plus Celts,
Greeks, and any other Ancients out there. Remember that you do NOT need to
have period clothing or a full set of equipment to participate! Come and
have fun!
The schedule so far:
FRIDAY
Arrival and set-up, general hobnobbing
SATURDAY
10 AM, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
11 AM, Full muster and opening remarks
11:30, Kids' Cohort
12 Noon, Lunch--cooking and eating demos
1 PM, Massed tactical and drill demo
1:30, Kids' Cohort
2 PM, Fashion Show
3 PM, Evolution of the Roman Soldier
4 PM, Close to the public
SUNDAY
10 AM, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
11 AM, Olympic competition--Armor Race, Pilum Throw, Hamata Toss,
Wrestling, various ball games, etc.
11:30, Drill and Kids' Cohort
12 Noon, Lunch and rehabilitation
1 PM, Massed tactical and drill demo
1:30, Kids' Cohort
2 PM, Fashion Show
3 PM, Closing parade
4 PM, Close to the public
Admission for the public will be $2, and there should be plenty of space
on
the grounds for parking. Participants may camp in period or modern
tents--the latter should either be set up out of sight on the lower field or
simply taken down during public hours. There are a number of hotels within
a few miles, mainly on Rt. 450 near the Beltway. There will be a large
pavilion canopy and a number of smaller pop-up flies for sun and/or rain
protection. Legio XX Members will be issued the usual eats, but other
participants should supply their own food--you can contact Merlinia and the
Settmour Swamp contingent about their meal plan. There will probably also
be a hot dog and snow cone vendor present. There are stores, restaurants,
and fast food places within a couple miles, farther west/north along Rt.
193, or near the Beltway.
Marietta Mansion is located at 5626 Bell Station Road, just off Rt. 193.
|
| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] ROMAN DAYS INFO |
| From: |
Mary Beth Clemon--------t;a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=029158235056038190172232203219129208071" >mclemon--------..</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 16:28:40 -0400 |
|
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Alas, I will be vacationing in
Norway June 9 -18! Damn! I really wanted to go again this year because I
had a great time meeting everyone (and drooling over some of the cute
soldiers) there last year!
Well, sorry I can't attend. Maybe next year! And remember, if anyone is
ever in Orlando or the Tampa Bay area, look me up and we can get together!
Valete,
Minervina Iucundia Flavia
Propraetor SE USA Provincia
-----Original Message-----
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------; [m--------o:<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------;]
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 3:37 PM
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Subject: [novaroma] ROMAN DAYS INFO
Salvete,
The following information is the latest announcement posted by the Matthew
Amt of the (20th??) Legion, in Maryland. Patricia Cassia and I will
definitely be attending this year, and hopefully lots of other Nova Roma
citizens will be there also!
Perhaps we might want to take some sort of head count of who's going, and
try
to coordinate hotels, at least one NR meeting, etc??
Vale,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
*************************
ROMAN DAYS
Roman Days is coming up fast! (Ack! I'm not ready!!) The date is June
10-11, and the place, as before, is Marietta Mansion, Glenn Dale, MD.
Military and civilian living history displays/camps will be lined up on the
upper lawn near the house, with merchants and educational static displays
down on the field ("Forum") as before. A large area will be roped off for
tactical displays, weapon demonstrations, and other activities. There will
be some new activities aimed mostly at children, such as mosaic-making, Bean
the Barbarian, and the "Kids' Cohort" (teaching them to drill with cardboard
shields). Obviously we want as many Romans as we can get, plus Celts,
Greeks, and any other Ancients out there. Remember that you do NOT need to
have period clothing or a full set of equipment to participate! Come and
have fun!
The schedule so far:
FRIDAY
Arrival and set-up, general hobnobbing
SATURDAY
10 AM, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
11 AM, Full muster and opening remarks
11:30, Kids' Cohort
12 Noon, Lunch--cooking and eating demos
1 PM, Massed tactical and drill demo
1:30, Kids' Cohort
2 PM, Fashion Show
3 PM, Evolution of the Roman Soldier
4 PM, Close to the public
SUNDAY
10 AM, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
11 AM, Olympic competition--Armor Race, Pilum Throw, Hamata Toss,
Wrestling, various ball games, etc.
11:30, Drill and Kids' Cohort
12 Noon, Lunch and rehabilitation
1 PM, Massed tactical and drill demo
1:30, Kids' Cohort
2 PM, Fashion Show
3 PM, Closing parade
4 PM, Close to the public
Admission for the public will be $2, and there should be plenty of space
on
the grounds for parking. Participants may camp in period or modern
tents--the latter should either be set up out of sight on the lower field or
simply taken down during public hours. There are a number of hotels within
a few miles, mainly on Rt. 450 near the Beltway. There will be a large
pavilion canopy and a number of smaller pop-up flies for sun and/or rain
protection. Legio XX Members will be issued the usual eats, but other
participants should supply their own food--you can contact Merlinia and the
Settmour Swamp contingent about their meal plan. There will probably also
be a hot dog and snow cone vendor present. There are stores, restaurants,
and fast food places within a couple miles, farther west/north along Rt.
193, or near the Beltway.
Marietta Mansion is located at 5626 Bell Station Road, just off Rt.
193.
|
| Subject: |
Fw: 'Mommy' |
| From: |
"Augusti--------ulia Caesaria Noctur--------#34; <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=091176219007018031015158190036129" >--------la@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 22:47:32 +0100 |
|
Salvete Omnes!
This was forwarded to me by a friend
------------------
Ok guys, here's another one of those sad poems!!!
Johnny brought a gun to school,
He told his friends that it was cool,
And when he pulled the trigger back,
It shot with a great crack.
Mommy, I was a good girl, I did
what I was told,
I went to school, I got straight As',
I even got the gold!
But Mommy, when I went to school that day,
I never said goodbye,
I'm sorry Mommy, I had to go,
But Mommy, please don't cry.
When Johnny shot the gun,
He hit me and another,
And all because Johnny,
Got the gun from his older brother.
Mommy, please tell Daddy;
That I love him very much,
And please tell Chris; my boyfriend;
That it wasn't just a crush.
And tell my little sister;
That she is the only now,
And tell my dear sweet Grandmother;
I'll be waiting for her now,
And tell my wonderful friends;
That they always were the best,
Mommy, I'm not the first,
I'm no better then the rest.
Mommy, tell my teachers;
I won't show up for class,
And never to forget this,
And please don't let this pass.
Mommy, why'd it have to be me?
No one deserves this,
Mommy, warn the others,
Mommy, I left without a kiss.
And Mommy, tell the doctors;
I know they really did try,
I think I even saw a doctor,
Trying not to cry.
Mommy, I'm slowly dying,
With a bullet in my chest,
But Mommy, please remember,
I'm in heaven with the rest.
Mommy, I ran as fast as I could,
When I heard that crack,
Mommy, listen to me if you would,
I'm not coming back.
I wanted to go to college,
I wanted to try things that were new,
I guess I'm not going with Daddy;
On that trip to the new zoo.
I wanted to get married,
I wanted to have a kid,
I wanted to be an actress,
Mommy, I wanted to live.
But Mommy, I'm must go now,
The time is getting late,
Mommy tell my boyfriend,
I'm sorry, but I had to cancel the date.
I love you Mommy, I always have,
I know; you know it's true,
And Mommy all I wanted to say is,
"Mommy, I love you"
P.S. Send this to all your friends you love. We have to try as hard as we
can to stop vilolence in schools. You say it can't happen at your school
but it did happen at my school. Two kids got
suspended becuase bombs and gun shells were found. And in many schools
around there were bomb threats. Im scared to go to school and I want this
to stop. So forward to as many people as possible.
Please pass this on!!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gender Compromise |
| From: |
<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> |
| Date: |
Wed, 17 May 2000 18:01:31 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/17/00 9:32:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=045166091007146202033082190" >jaro@--------</a> writes:
<< My compromise to this edict, as I feel we can work within it:
If a citizen of Nova Roma wishes to present oneself as a woman on the board
and during Nova Roma functions, then that citizen should take the feminine
form of name, regardless of their birth sex. I don't need to tell you that
the same is true for one wishing to present as a man. >>
In other words, a person can present themselves as either male or female, on
the board and at functions. Am I understanding you correctly?
If so, where is the compromise? What you describe is already supported by
supporters of the edict and rejected by those opposed to the edict. Unless I
am misunderstanding you, there is nothing new here.
Maybe you could clarify?
Gaius Lupinius Festus
|
