Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fw: 'Mommy' and Please read.
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 19:59:18 EDT

Salve Citizens and List Patrons,

DO NOT post any kind of "chain letters" or "pyramid schemes" to the Nova Roma
egroups/onelist mailing list!!!! Thats just plain bad online manners and
very annoying!

Vale

Iulius Titinius Antonius

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ROMAN DAYS INFO
From:	"susan brett" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061158091009093031223225065148243223136058139046209" >scriba_forum@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 00:36:47 GMT

Salvete Marcus Julianus Cassius et al:

I shall be attending Roman Days. I have a list of hotels, courtesy of G.
Lupinius Festus, but haven't (I'd better soon!) booked a hotel yet.

I am looking forward to meeting you and Patricia Cassia, and all others who
will be in attendance.

Bene Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo




>From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=219166066112082162090021200165114253071048139" >c--------us622@--------</--------;
>Reply-To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
>Subject: [novaroma] ROMAN DAYS INFO
>Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 15:37:27 EDT
>
>Salvete,
>
>The following information is the latest announcement posted by the Matthew
>Amt of the (20th??) Legion, in Maryland. Patricia Cassia and I will
>definitely be attending this year, and hopefully lots of other Nova Roma
>citizens will be there also!
>
>Perhaps we might want to take some sort of head count of who's going, and
>try
>to coordinate hotels, at least one NR meeting, etc??
>
>Vale,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>*************************
>ROMAN DAYS
>
>Roman Days is coming up fast! (Ack! I'm not ready!!) The date is June
>10-11, and the place, as before, is Marietta Mansion, Glenn Dale, MD.
>Military and civilian living history displays/camps will be lined up on the
>upper lawn near the house, with merchants and educational static displays
>down on the field ("Forum") as before. A large area will be roped off for
>tactical displays, weapon demonstrations, and other activities. There will
>be some new activities aimed mostly at children, such as mosaic-making,
>Bean
>the Barbarian, and the "Kids' Cohort" (teaching them to drill with
>cardboard
>shields). Obviously we want as many Romans as we can get, plus Celts,
>Greeks, and any other Ancients out there. Remember that you do NOT need to
>have period clothing or a full set of equipment to participate! Come and
>have fun!
> The schedule so far:
>FRIDAY
> Arrival and set-up, general hobnobbing
>SATURDAY
> 10 AM, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
> 11 AM, Full muster and opening remarks
> 11:30, Kids' Cohort
> 12 Noon, Lunch--cooking and eating demos
> 1 PM, Massed tactical and drill demo
> 1:30, Kids' Cohort
> 2 PM, Fashion Show
> 3 PM, Evolution of the Roman Soldier
> 4 PM, Close to the public
>SUNDAY
> 10 AM, OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
> 11 AM, Olympic competition--Armor Race, Pilum Throw, Hamata Toss,
>Wrestling, various ball games, etc.
> 11:30, Drill and Kids' Cohort
> 12 Noon, Lunch and rehabilitation
> 1 PM, Massed tactical and drill demo
> 1:30, Kids' Cohort
> 2 PM, Fashion Show
> 3 PM, Closing parade
> 4 PM, Close to the public
>
> Admission for the public will be $2, and there should be plenty of
>space
>on
>the grounds for parking. Participants may camp in period or modern
>tents--the latter should either be set up out of sight on the lower field
>or
>simply taken down during public hours. There are a number of hotels within
>a few miles, mainly on Rt. 450 near the Beltway. There will be a large
>pavilion canopy and a number of smaller pop-up flies for sun and/or rain
>protection. Legio XX Members will be issued the usual eats, but other
>participants should supply their own food--you can contact Merlinia and the
>Settmour Swamp contingent about their meal plan. There will probably also
>be a hot dog and snow cone vendor present. There are stores, restaurants,
>and fast food places within a couple miles, farther west/north along Rt.
>193, or near the Beltway.
> Marietta Mansion is located at 5626 Bell Station Road, just off Rt.
>193.
>From I-95/495, the Capital Beltway, take Exit 20 onto Rt. 450 East, go 4
>miles, turn left on Rt. 193, then left onto Bell Station Rd. and
>immediately
>left into Marietta.
> Susan Wolfe, the site manager at Marietta, can be reached at
>301-464-5291,
><--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=061143253078021198148248200248147208071048" >swolfe612@--------</--------;.

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Subject:	Re:[novaroma] No Confidence in Censor
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 18:28:12 -0700

Nicolaus Moravius wrote:

> Salvete Quiriti
>
> I have been persuaded to withdraw my undertaking to present the
Praetor
> Urbanis with a case of 'no confidence' in Censor Sulla.

Oh and am I supposed to be pleased! Take it to the Praetors! Here is a
list of
my accomplishments (without a colleague) as Censor:

1. I have approved 60 + citizen applications
2. Cleaned up the roles from citizens who have asked to be removed with

promptness and even with notification to the Pater/Materfamilias of
this.
3. Got the citizen application situation caught up from December (when
there
was a backlog) and in March (when my colleague resigned). Both within a
month.
4. Restored the Album Gentium with modifications 2 since February.
5. Restored the Album Civium
6. Passed on 10 edictas (Only one so far has brought on any
controversay)
7. Promptly responding on all inquires from citizens, potential
citizens, and
anyone else who sent e-mails.
8. Recalculated Century Points for all 400 + Citizens (BEFORE the
election)
9. Sorted everyone in their correct Tribes in compliance with the Nova
Roma
Constitution.
10. Sorted everyone in their proper Centuries.

KEEP in mind all of this was done BEFORE May 5, and before I had a
colleague to
assist me in any duties.

So, if someone wants to have a vote for no confidence in Lucius
Cornelius Sulla
Felix as Censor of Nova Roma let them please put their case before the
Praetors!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor et Senator
Consular
Paterfamilias of the Patrican Gens Cornelia
Lictor


<--------lass="msghead"> labienus &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 20:47:23 -0500

Savete Turia Apollonia et alii.

> I realize I am a new cives and should not speak yet, but I feel I have
>
> something important and valuable to say to the community.

Well, at least you got it half right. Don't feel reluctant to speak up
just because you're new.

> My husband, soon to be called Gaius Minucis Lupus, did the same and we
> both
> came to decide on different already existing gens we had a kinship
> with
> intellectually and by whom we were shown warmth and hospitality.

Your case is interesting to me because my wife and I almost ended up in
different gentes as well. She wanted the name Appia Claudia, and I
wanted to found gens Labiena. We corresponded with then-censor
Germanicus, and he told us that my wife did not have to be a member of
gens Claudia in order to take the name (she ended up as Appia Claudia
Labieni). Therefore, she never attempted to contact the Claudii. In
retrospect, I think we would have profited from taking your route.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] No Confidence in Censor
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 21:53:00 EDT

In a message dated 5/17/00 9:39:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a> writ--------br>
<< So, if someone wants to have a vote for no confidence in Lucius
Cornelius Sulla
Felix as Censor of Nova Roma let them please put their case before the
Praetors! >>


Salve Sulla,

Well, it will have to be someone other than myself. There is no arguing
against a fine work record as that!

Festus

Subject:	Re: No Confidence in Censor
From:	Helena <a href="/post/novaro--------rotectID=165158192237078153036181001245114223071048139" >oceanlilly@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 22:12:02 -0400 (EDT)

I know I am biased here but-I am the only one who has seen
*first-hand* how hard Sulla has worked as Censor since the
beginning of the year. HE HAS WORKED HIS BUTT OFF 4-5 HOURS
EVERY DAY! (He works so hard that it has strained our rela
-tionship.)

Vado, would you prefer the opposite (like we had last year)?

-Helena Cornelia Ovidia Equitia
Propraetrix of California

Oh and am I supposed to be pleased! Take it to the Praetors! Here is a list of my accomplishments (without a colleague) as Censor:

1. I have approved 60 + citizen applications
2. Cleaned up the roles from citizens who have asked to
be removed with promptness and even with notification to
the Pater/Materfamilias of this.
3. Got the citizen application situation caught up from December (when there was a backlog) and in March (when my colleague resigned). Both within a month.
4. Restored the Album Gentium with modifications 2 since February.
5. Restored the Album Civium
6. Passed on 10 edictas (Only one so far has brought on
any controversay)
7. Promptly responding on all inquires from citizens,
potential citizens, and anyone else who sent e-mails.
8. Recalculated Century Points for all 400 + Citizens
(BEFORE the election)
9. Sorted everyone in their correct Tribes in compliance
with the Nova Roma Constitution.
10. Sorted everyone in their proper Centuries.

KEEP in mind all of this was done BEFORE May 5, and before
I had a colleague to assist me in any duties.

So, if someone wants to have a vote for no confidence in
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix as Censor of Nova Roma let
them please put their case before the Praetors!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor et Senator
Consular
Paterfamilias of the Patrican Gens Cornelia
Lictor
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 22:25:13 EDT

Salve Caius Marius,

I agree that this should be addressed by some guidelines or limits on
forming new one-person gentes. I recall that when I became a citizen
(only a couple of years ago -- it seems like a decade), one of my main
reasons for forming a new gens was that I didn't know any of the other
citizens and had no way to know if I would want to be a "kinsman" to any
of them. I only recently accepted a second citizen into the Sergii, and
they are not a spouse (at least not mine, anyway!).

Might it not be helpful in this regard to allow (or require) new citizens
to participate as neophytes(?) for 60 days or so before they applied to
be members of a gens? This could be analogous to a "maturity" rite
(memory fails me at the moment with regard to the ceremony Romans
actually had for the coming-of-age of young men). And it would both allow
time for neophytes to get to know some people in various gentes, and
allow the prospective gentes to get to know who might be a new member.

It could be at the time of applying/being accepted into a gens that they
could pay the fee suggested. The fee for formation of a new gens, if
approved by the Censores, could be a little higher to encourage the
growth of existing gentes.

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis et paterfamilias

sic friatur crustum dulce.

(Thus the cookie crumbles.)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 22:25:15 EDT

On 5/16/00 2:27 PM Antonius Gryllus Grae--------(<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>) wrote:

>Salvete Vado et al
>
[SNIP]
>I'm not saying that we should act in the same way. In fact I have often
>presented my view that Fimbria should be recognised as male and the Censor
>knows it for I've spoken to him many times. Nevertheless, I also respect the
>opinion of the Censor.
Then why don't you stand by your convictions instead of relinquishing
them to the authority of one magistrate acting wrongly (albeit with
presumably good intentions).

>>>As you know, to enact edicts is one of his powers.
And to overturn them is one of the powers of the people of Nova Roma,
hence the appropriateness of this discussion.
>>
[SNIP]
>Ok, but why didn't Fimbria persuade a Praetor or a Tribune (if Fimbria was
>plebeian, of course)?
At the time in question, Fimbria chose not to publicize the matter by
taking it before the Comitia. And BTW -- she doesn't have to be a plebian
to appeal to the Tribuni Plebii for assistance. That may have been true
in Roma Antiqva but not in Roma Nova under the Flavian Constitution. But
it would have done no good because the Tribuni were split on the matter
and under Flavius' Constitution both Tribuni must concur to pronounce
intercessio. She still could have taken it to the Comita but now, as a
non-citizen, she cannot. Still, any other citizen can take the matter to
a Tribunus, and either Tribunus Plebis can convene the Comitia to hear
such a matter IF he/she thinks that the "spirit and letter" of the
Constitution are being violated and that it is in the interest of the Res
Publica to so contest it.

I am convinced of the former but not yet of the latter, since to force it
to a vote might result in a bad edict (which is weak) being codified into
a bad law (which would have more authority).

If, as it appears, the matter is to be debated in the Senate, that may or
may not dispose of the Censorial Edict. The Senate can overturn a
magisterial edict by a contrary Senatus Consultum. That will not settle
the matter in law, since the Senate cannot make laws. Only the people, in
their tribes and centuries, can make laws.

For a law on the matter, it must be taken to the Comitiae.
>>Besides, as you well know, non-citizens are free to
>>post and discuss issues on this list. And, as I've said, this IS an issue
>>which affects everyone in NR. Our liberties can, at present, be curtailed
>>without need (and against international law, as you, a fellow EU citizen,
>>are aware) by ONE man, whose defence to date is that he is allowed to do
>so.
>Ok.
>
>>- So. Shall we discuss your chickens?
>=|
>
>Valete
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Praetor

Tak stavit eto. (What would the Latin be for "Thus it stands?")

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gender discussions
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 22:25:17 EDT

Exceedingly well stated, Iustinia Cassia.

L. Sergius Australicus

On 5/16/00 11:32 PM <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082116036098035140229088239144044009209130152" >Justini--------si--------..</--------; (<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082116036098035140229088239144044009209130152" >Justini--------si--------..</--------;) wrote:

>Salve,
>
>I have no desire in joining a site devoted to transgendered issues, and
>would
>not have posted on the topic at all if not for the edict which I find to be
>damaging to Nova Roma as a whole. Rather than join my fellow distressed
>citizens in resigning over the issue, I have attempted to contribute to and
>support the efforts of those who wish to persuade Sulla, through reason and
>scholarly data, to rescind or at least modify his edict. If I did not think
>highly of Sulla as an open-minded individual willing to listen to citizens'
>constructive criticism, I would not have made the attempt. Believe me, as
>soon as the edict is rescinded or modified, I'll be glad to stop talking
>about gender! It shocks me that the request to stop talking about gender
>followed closely on the heels of Vado's post in which he cited and quoted at
>length from an academic work on gender in Ancient Rome. This is exactly the
>type of effort that I thought would shed some objective light on the subject
>and persuade Sulla and those who support the edict to re-think it. Perhaps
>I'm being naive here?
>
>It also surprises me to hear Fimbria dismissed as simply a non-citizen.
>Surely it is more accurate to consider Fimbria a former citizen who has
>contributed much to Nova Roma in the past. The loss of such a citizen seems
>to be distressing to many current citizens, and rightly so. While it has
>been stated that it was her choice to leave, it is also my understanding
>that
>Fimbria did not leave simply because she was bored or too busy with other
>things, but left because the actions of others, wittingly or unwittingly,
>caused her to feel too uncomfortable to stay. Some responsibility needs to
>be shouldered on that account.
>
>The issue is also not something that affects just one non-citizen. It
>affects the rest of us who are distressed by the edict and its consequences
>for Nova Roma. It affects how Nova Roma will be perceived by potential
>citizens. It affects those who are concerned about gov't intrusion into the
>most personal of matters.
>
>Vale,
>
>Iustinia Cassia


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	Censor Noster Lucius Sulla
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 22:39:33 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

I have remained relatively silent on this List since the "pagan propaganda"
shenanigans of a while back. Partially this has been because I am still
reluctant to risk tossing another fox tail into the chicken coop, but more
importantly because of my concentration on the Latinitatis Sodalitas (and,
more critically, my own personal work schedule). However, I am prompted to
speak now, in view of the brands which are being tossed about regarding
Lucius Cornelius Sulla, whom I count among my many friends in Nova Roma.

It appears to me that Sulla's "peccatum mortale" was the issuance of an Edict
which has created a great stir in a rather small pot, relatively speaking.
It is my feeling that if this is the case, then it should be the Edict which
is spoken for and against, on its own merits or lack thereof. As far as I
can see, there was neither malice nor malfeasance involved in the issuance of
the Edict and thus no valid case for personal attacks against Sulla himself.
Frankly, I find the suggestion of a "No Confidence" vote on a single issue
such as this to be faintly preposterous.

If there are those of us who approve or disapprove of the Edict in question,
then let us support it or assault with all the dignity, logic and persuasion
at our disposal (and that is not insubstantial, on either side). Sulla has
done, in my opinion and that of many others, a marvellous job overall. In
him, I believe, we have a tremendously hard-working, dedicated and energetic
Censor. I feel that it would be sheer folly to toss this good fortune out
the window for the sake of an issue which should be dealt with *as* an issue.


Sententia mea est; decisio nobis omnibus, nonne?

Valete omnes, et pax omnibus,
Acadianus Draco

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fw: 'Mommy' and Please read.
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 22:43:30 EDT

I concur! Please no more of such dreck! We may all resign if there's to
be more of that stuff.

L. Sergius Aust.


On 5/17/00 6:59 PM <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; (<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------;) wrote:

>Salve Citizens and List Patrons,
>
>DO NOT post any kind of "chain letters" or "pyramid schemes" to the Nova
>Roma
>egroups/onelist mailing list!!!! Thats just plain bad online manners and
>very annoying!
>
>Vale
>
>Iulius Titinius Antonius


utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!

(May barbarians invade your personal space!)

Subject:	On gens and marriage
From:	"Pixie" <a href="/post/--------roma?protectID=197028131056056135172082190036" >pyxee@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 22:43:50 -0400

Salvete T Labienus Fortunatus et alii.

>Your case is interesting to me because my wife and I almost ended up in
>different gentes as well

I'd like to explain why my maritus and I chose different gens fully. For me,
the main issue in choosing my Roman name was to choose names that are a
tribute to my favorite Roman women, the loyal and brave Turia and the female
poet Sulpicia, my gens was not important. Nor was gens name important to my
husband, who is quickly learning Latin since joining Nova Roma:)

We spoke with each other to decide if different gens would be allright with
each other as we are very different individuals and respect each others
various interests and after consulting each other, decided to each find a
gens where we best felt be belonged and whom had paterfamilas we respected
(although I respect my Socer (paterfamilias-in-law) immensely )and would
benefit most from being part of their gens. We also chose to have different
Patronas due to our religious beliefs and that as also factored into our
discussion. We even were adopted by different class paterfamilas, I was
adopted into a plebian gens and he by a patrician gens. We decided we would
do this as a couple, as you and your wife did, but to each do what was in
the best interests of our ideals and strengths.

I also am well aware there is an ancient Roman precedent for such as many
women remained under their own paterfamilias after marriage to prevent being
under the manus of her husband. I do this even in the real world by having
kept my maiden name as it is the name I use professionally and earned my
degrees in. By taking his gens name as an agnomen, I signify my deep
connection with my husband and our bond without forsaking my own identity or
respect due to my paterfamilias who is teaching me more Latin. Yes, it makes
for a very long Roman name but that's ok:)

It would have been nice to join the same gens, but we are very pleased with
our choices. It is also far better to join an existing gens so as to have a
mentor who knows the ropes:)

Curate ut Valetis,
Turia Apollonia Sulpicia Minucia

**************************
Randi "Pixie" Bruner
#9603-040 Bete SA
"Women and cats will do as they please and men and dogs
should relax and get used to the idea." -Robert A. Heinlein
**************************

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] edicta and laws
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 22:43:31 EDT

People are always trotting out this old saw from Plato. Unfortunately, it
has no relevance to the topic at hand. We're not talking about bad
manners and lack of exercise in the young. We're talking about deficits
in the society, not in its children.

But that's the sort of answer you get in a society that thinks killing or
imprisoning its children is the answer to the failings of its adults.

L. Sergius Aust.

On 5/15/00 8:37 PM <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082116036098035140229088239144044009209130152" >Justini--------si--------..</--------; (<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=173075066165082116036098035140229088239144044009209130152" >Justini--------si--------..</--------;) wrote:

>Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
>authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in
>place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room;
>they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their
>food and tyrannize their teachers.
>-- Socrates


quemadnoum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.

(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4bc - 65ad

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 19:52:15 -0700

<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------; wrote:

> Might it not be helpful in this regard to allow (or require) new citizens
> to participate as neophytes(?) for 60 days or so before they applied to
> be members of a gens?

CAE:I think this is a sound idea.

> This could be analogous to a "maturity" rite
> (memory fails me at the moment with regard to the ceremony Romans
> actually had for the coming-of-age of young men). And it would both allow
> time for neophytes to get to know some people in various gentes, and
> allow the prospective gentes to get to know who might be a new member.

> It could be at the time of applying/being accepted into a gens that they
> could pay the fee suggested. The fee for formation of a new gens, if
> approved by the Censores, could be a little higher to encourage the
> growth of existing gentes.

CAE:Fees? No!

C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	Again! -- Gladiator
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 20:03:17 -0700

I went to buy the CD today at a large chain store in downtown San
Francisco. It was sold out. The same store had a large display when
the flick opened -- Many CDs. Now, all gone! I'd say it is going
well.

Honos et Virtus.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Again! -- Gladiator
From:
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 20:00:43 -0700

I think we should add it on the NR Canemum (sp.) via Amazon.com That is
where Helena bought it. :)

Sulla Felix
Censor

Razenna wrote:

> I went to buy the CD today at a large chain store in downtown San
> Francisco. It was sold out. The same store had a large display when
> the flick opened -- Many CDs. Now, all gone! I'd say it is going
> well.
>
> Honos et Virtus.
> Valete.
> C. Aelius Ericius.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Remember four years of good friends, bad clothes, explosive chemistry
> experiments.
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4051/6/_/61050/_/958618974/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4051/6/_/61050/_/958618974/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Quotes Vado Does Not Want You To See!
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 00:28:04 EDT

Two days ago, on May 16, Maria Fimbria posted a letter from Vado, "who
intended to post it in the first place", which was a series of quotes from an
article by D. Monserrat entitled 'Reading Gender In The Roman World'.

I read through this post, which was supposed to serve as ammunition
against Sulla's edict, by showing that the Romans had "third gender" people,
and so therefore, so should Nova Roma.

Well, I am pleased to say I found the entire article tonight, and you may
see it for yourself by going to
<a href="http://www.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/Classics/sandgessay.html#Gender_Body" target="_top" >http://www.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/Classics/sandgessay.html#Gender_Body</a>

I have not read this whole article yet. It loos interesting, but the
first thing I noticed was how often the author speculates. Simone de
Beauvoir's famous dictum that 'one is not born a woman, but rather becomes
one' MIGHT have seemed much closer to their own notions about the formation
of gender as opposed to sex. Or '"...genetic hermaphrodites and eunuchs,
medically castrated men like the Galli... and celibates such as the Vestal
Virgins MIGHT all be seen as members of the Roman third gender".
{Or the Vestals may be seen as females who were merely celibate}

But this is a small matter. Historians do speculate a great deal. What
amuses me is Vado's very selective quoting. For instance, Vado quotes the
author thusly, "From a modern standpoint, Elegabalus gender position is
problematic. I am reminded of the two cases brought... in 1997 to the
European Court of Justice by male-to-female transexuals to have their
so-called gender reassignment recognised, so that they can legally 'become'
women in spite of being born men."

These two transexuals lost their case---a point Vado conveniently hides by
removing the word 'unsucessfully' which is between the words 'brought', and
'in 1997'.

And now, here is a juicy tidbit which Vado apparently did not wish to share
with you.

"This is not to suggest, however, that third gender individuals were
necessarily regarded positively by the Romans: QUITE THE OPPOSITE, IN FACT.
{emphaisis mine} This is particularly true of males who had, according to
Roman ideas, slipped several points down the gender barometer towards
femaleness while still inhabiting male bodies. Maleness is always the optimum
state. AND VIOLENCE AGAINST THIRD GENDER INDIVIDUALS COULD ALSO GO BEYOND THE
VERBAL. {empahsis mine} This is illustrated by a curious book compiled by an
obscure author, Julius Obsequens, in the fourth or early fifth centuries AD,
but utilising much earlier material. It is called 'the Book of Omens'
(Prodigium liber). Obsequens' work is a sort of anthology of inexplicable
events seen as having a predictive or otherwise portentous quality. The birth
or discovery of hermaphrodites is a recurrent theme of these portents:

In the consulship of Spurius Postumus Albinus and Quintus Marcius Philippus
(= 186 BC). In Umbria a hermaphrodite about twelve years old was discovered
and put to death on the advice of the seers. In the consulship of Lucius
Metellus and Quintus Fabius Maximus (= 142 BC). The plague was so severe at
Luna that corpses lay everywhere in the open for lack of people to bury them.
At Luna a hermaphrodite was born and on the instruction of the seers was
consigned to the sea.

In the consulship of Gnaeus Domitius and Gaius Fannius (= 122 BC). At Forum
Vessanum a hermaphrodite was born and thrown into the sea. Obsequens lists
many other examples from all periods of Republican history.THE HERMAPHRODITES
ARE CLEARLY SEEN AS DISASTEROUS INVERSIONS OF NATURE, manifestations of
divine displeasure only FIT TO BE DESTROYED BY FIRE OR WATER SO THAT THEY DO
CONTAMINATE THE EARTH {emphasis mine} They sometimes seem to be scapegoats
for other catastrophes in the community - it is surely no coincidence that
when the plague was raging at Luna, a hermaphrodite was found locally on
whose baleful influence it could be blamed. Other mentions of hermaphrodites
as bad omens interestingly link them with Greekness. Livy, in a discussion of
the portents that took place in 209 BC, says that most people called
individuals 'born of uncertain sex, between male and female' by the Greek
loan-word 'androgyne' or 'man-woman', because it is easier to coin these
double words in the Greek language (faciliore ad duplicanda verba Graeca
sermone: Livy, Histories 27.11.4). Once again, as with emperor Elegabalus,
gender difference can be equated with foreigness - Livy implies that only the
tricksy, slippery Greek language can coin a word for such a monstrous thing
as the hermaphrodite, unlike pure, dignified Latin."

Did Vado just happen to forget these paragraphs?


Gaius Lupinius Festus

Subject:	Re:[novaroma] No Confidence in Censor
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=061166091213158134036102228219114187071048139" >sarmaticus@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 05:15:10 -0000

Salve Nicola Moravi, Sulla, et alii,

I don't understand what all this "'no confidence' in Censor Sulla"
stuff is about. In my understanding, Sulla is one of the most active
and useful censors of NR. He's definetly got _my_ 'confidence', at
least!

Hands off Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix!

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS
Civis et barbarvs Nov=E6 Rom=E6
Propraetor Sarmati=E6 Provinci=E6

Libertas inaestimabilis res est

P.S. Nevertheless I think a censor should not delete citizens from
the roles so quickly. A citizen could be ill, or in a business trip,
or temporarily off-line, or there could be an old or wrong email
address in censorial database... Perhaps a prevoius consultation with
a respective provincial propraetor is nedeed in such cases?

But all this doesn't mean we cannot trust Censor Sulla!

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@e...
wrote:
>
>
> Nicolaus Moravius wrote:
>
> > Salvete Quiriti
> >
> > I have been persuaded to withdraw my undertaking to present the
> Praetor
> > Urbanis with a case of 'no confidence' in Censor Sulla.
>
> Oh and am I supposed to be pleased! Take it to the Praetors! Here
is a
> list of
> my accomplishments (without a colleague) as Censor:
>
> 1. I have approved 60 + citizen applications
> 2. Cleaned up the roles from citizens who have asked to be removed
with
>
> promptness and even with notification to the Pater/Materfamilias of
> this.
> 3. Got the citizen application situation caught up from December
(when
> there
> was a backlog) and in March (when my colleague resigned). Both
within a
> month.
> 4. Restored the Album Gentium with modifications 2 since February.
> 5. Restored the Album Civium
> 6. Passed on 10 edictas (Only one so far has brought on any
> controversay)
> 7. Promptly responding on all inquires from citizens, potential
> citizens, and
> anyone else who sent e-mails.
> 8. Recalculated Century Points for all 400 + Citizens (BEFORE the
> election)
> 9. Sorted everyone in their correct Tribes in compliance with the
Nova
> Roma
> Constitution.
> 10. Sorted everyone in their proper Centuries.
>
> KEEP in mind all of this was done BEFORE May 5, and before I had a
> colleague to
> assist me in any duties.
>
> So, if someone wants to have a vote for no confidence in Lucius
> Cornelius Sulla
> Felix as Censor of Nova Roma let them please put their case before
the
> Praetors!
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor et Senator
> Consular
> Paterfamilias of the Patrican Gens Cornelia
> Lictor

Subject:	Great Lakes Provincial cives and to any other interested in community
From:	<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 00:55:26 -0500 (CDT)

Salve!!!


Who would be interested in a physical meeting / get together later
this summer or early fall???

I was thinking about a certain large and scenic Wisconsin State
Park where camping is available and inexpensive motels abound. Do we
have enough interest ( at least 8-10 plus people confirmed )?

There's plenty we could do in this senario. It would make a great
weekend getaway and a way for us to socialize. Anything from a brief
meeting on anything relevent to Nova Roma of the day, people bringing in
books or coins, artifacts, etc., a card party, a nature hike, or even a
ritual, and there's a swimming beach to boot. It's about establishing
ourselves as a community.

As governor of the Great Lakes Provincia I think now is the perfect
time to make plans for some type of social event rather than just
listening to whining and bitching on this newsgroup all summer. Anyone
favorable to this type of idea before I go on and on????
Any ideas to go along with this?

Gaius Drusus Domitianus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Quotes Vado Does Not Want You To See!
From:	JSA <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=081166091180193192130061163101147165026048139046" >varromurena@--------</a>
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 23:08:03 -0700 (PDT)

--- <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> wrote:
>
>
> I have not read this whole article yet.

Obviously not, as it clearly does not support your
point of view.

It loos
> interesting, but the
> first thing I noticed was how often the author
> speculates.

It is written in the typical academic style, there's
nothing unusual or sinister about it.

Simone de
> Beauvoir's famous dictum that 'one is not born a
> woman, but rather becomes
> one' MIGHT have seemed much closer to their own
> notions about the formation
> of gender as opposed to sex. Or '"...genetic
> hermaphrodites and eunuchs,
> medically castrated men like the Galli... and
> celibates such as the Vestal
> Virgins MIGHT all be seen as members of the Roman
> third gender".
> {Or the Vestals may be seen as females who were
> merely celibate}

I'm sorry, but you are the one taking quotations out
of context.

>
> But this is a small matter. Historians do
> speculate a great deal. What
> amuses me is Vado's very selective quoting.

Methinks you protest too much. See my above comment.

For
> instance, Vado quotes the
> author thusly, "From a modern standpoint, Elegabalus
> gender position is
> problematic. I am reminded of the two cases
> brought... in 1997 to the
> European Court of Justice by male-to-female
> transexuals to have their
> so-called gender reassignment recognised, so that
> they can legally 'become'
> women in spite of being born men."
>
> These two transexuals lost their case---a point Vado
> conveniently hides by
> removing the word 'unsucessfully' which is between
> the words 'brought', and
> 'in 1997'.

Just because one case brought now is unsuccesful does
not mean future cases will be unsucessful. Law is not
written in stone, unchanging and eternal.

>
> And now, here is a juicy tidbit which Vado
> apparently did not wish to share
> with you.
>
> "This is not to suggest, however, that third gender
> individuals were
> necessarily regarded positively by the Romans: QUITE
> THE OPPOSITE, IN FACT.
> {emphaisis mine} This is particularly true of males
> who had, according to
> Roman ideas, slipped several points down the gender
> barometer towards
> femaleness while still inhabiting male bodies.
> Maleness is always the optimum
> state. AND VIOLENCE AGAINST THIRD GENDER INDIVIDUALS
> COULD ALSO GO BEYOND THE
> VERBAL.

Oh, yes! Tribune!! Summon the Concilia Plebis so we
may pass a law stating that all Nova Romans who are
gay or transgendered SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH
IMMEDIATELY!

Hey, you don't like this law, come on over to
Hellenion--we don't care what gender you are or if
you're gay or straight.

L. Licinius Varro Murena

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
<a href="http://im.yahoo.com/" target="_top" >http://im.yahoo.com/</a>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Quotes Vado Does Not Want You To See!
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 03:12:16 -0400

Just because Nova Roma strives to revive that of ancient Rome does not mean
that there be a need for a 'third gender' -- even if there where a 'third gender'
within Rome during certain times of history. This whole idea of 'third gender' is
a bunch of crap! If your genetically a MAN or WOMEN then so be it! Face the
truth, and if unable to, seek profession help. Do not place guilt on Sulla for
his actions are just for the betterment of Nova Roma as a whole -- not special
interest groups! And did not Augustus ban or punish individuals that were
involved in same sex relations? I wish no harm to come against homosexuals -- I
do believe their actions are vile, repulsive and biologically unfounded. What I
do find disturbing are but a few widely vocal activist that use Nova Roma for
their own personally gratification all under the guise of what is being proposed
as being better for NR.

Tacitus



<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=226028211237082190172248203043129208071" >Lykaion1@--------</a> wrote:

> Two days ago, on May 16, Maria Fimbria posted a letter from Vado, "who
> intended to post it in the first place", which was a series of quotes from an
> article by D. Monserrat entitled 'Reading Gender In The Roman World'.
>
> I read through this post, which was supposed to serve as ammunition
> against Sulla's edict, by showing that the Romans had "third gender" peopleand
> so therefore, so should Nova Roma.
>
> Well, I am pleased to say I found the entire article tonight, and you may
> see it for yourself by going to
> <a href="http://www.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/Classics/sandgessay.html#Gender_Body" target="_top" >http://www.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/Classics/sandgessay.html#Gender_Body</a>
>
> I have not read this whole article yet. It loos interesting, but the
> first thing I noticed was how often the author speculates. Simone de
> Beauvoir's famous dictum that 'one is not born a woman, but rather becomes
> one' MIGHT have seemed much closer to their own notions about the formation
> of gender as opposed to sex. Or '"...genetic hermaphrodites and eunuchs,
> medically castrated men like the Galli... and celibates such as the Vestal
> Virgins MIGHT all be seen as members of the Roman third gender".
> {Or the Vestals may be seen as females who were merely celibate}
>
> But this is a small matter. Historians do speculate a great deal. What
> amuses me is Vado's very selective quoting. For instance, Vado quotes the
> author thusly, "From a modern standpoint, Elegabalus gender position is
> problematic. I am reminded of the two cases brought... in 1997 to the
> European Court of Justice by male-to-female transexuals to have their
> so-called gender reassignment recognised, so that they can legally 'become'
> women in spite of being born men."
>
> These two transexuals lost their case---a point Vado conveniently hides by
> removing the word 'unsucessfully' which is between the words 'brought', and
> 'in 1997'.
>
> And now, here is a juicy tidbit which Vado apparently did not wish to share
> with you.
>
> "This is not to suggest, however, that third gender individuals were
> necessarily regarded positively by the Romans: QUITE THE OPPOSITE, IN FACT.
> {emphaisis mine} This is particularly true of males who had, according to
> Roman ideas, slipped several points down the gender barometer towards
> femaleness while still inhabiting male bodies. Maleness is always the optimum
> state. AND VIOLENCE AGAINST THIRD GENDER INDIVIDUALS COULD ALSO GO BEYOND THE
> VERBAL. {empahsis mine} This is illustrated by a curious book compiled by an
> obscure author, Julius Obsequens, in the fourth or early fifth centuries AD,
> but utilising much earlier material. It is called 'the Book of Omens'
> (Prodigium liber). Obsequens' work is a sort of anthology of inexplicable
> events seen as having a predictive or otherwise portentous quality. The birth
> or discovery of hermaphrodites is a recurrent theme of these portents:
>
> In the consulship of Spurius Postumus Albinus and Quintus Marcius Philippus
> (= 186 BC). In Umbria a hermaphrodite about twelve years old was discovered
> and put to death on the advice of the seers. In the consulship of Lucius
> Metellus and Quintus Fabius Maximus (= 142 BC). The plague was so severe at
> Luna that corpses lay everywhere in the open for lack of people to bury them.
> At Luna a hermaphrodite was born and on the instruction of the seers was
> consigned to the sea.
>
> In the consulship of Gnaeus Domitius and Gaius Fannius (= 122 BC). At Forum
> Vessanum a hermaphrodite was born and thrown into the sea. Obsequens lists
> many other examples from all periods of Republican history.THE HERMAPHRODITES
> ARE CLEARLY SEEN AS DISASTEROUS INVERSIONS OF NATURE, manifestations of
> divine displeasure only FIT TO BE DESTROYED BY FIRE OR WATER SO THAT THEY DO
> CONTAMINATE THE EARTH {emphasis mine} They sometimes seem to be scapegoats
> for other catastrophes in the community - it is surely no coincidence that
> when the plague was raging at Luna, a hermaphrodite was found locally on
> whose baleful influence it could be blamed. Other mentions of hermaphrodites
> as bad omens interestingly link them with Greekness. Livy, in a discussion of
> the portents that took place in 209 BC, says that most people called
> individuals 'born of uncertain sex, between male and female' by the Greek
> loan-word 'androgyne' or 'man-woman', because it is easier to coin these
> double words in the Greek language (faciliore ad duplicanda verba Graeca
> sermone: Livy, Histories 27.11.4). Once again, as with emperor Elegabalus,
> gender difference can be equated with foreigness - Livy implies that only the
> tricksy, slippery Greek language can coin a word for such a monstrous thing
> as the hermaphrodite, unlike pure, dignified Latin."
>
> Did Vado just happen to forget these paragraphs?
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Phone bills too big? Don't worry, beMANY!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4113/6/_/61050/_/958624093/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4113/6/_/61050/_/958624093/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] No Confidence in Censor
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=158059101122035091033" >3s@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 09:15:45 +0200

Salve.

let our Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix make his job. If someone has the
opinion, that he must have no confidence in the work of Sulla, he may apply
the Praetors.
Sulla has my confidence too. In my opinion he“s doing a good job to serve
Nova Roma.

Everybody who has some doubts about this should think about if he could do a
better job than Sulla.

Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Citizen of Nova Roma

"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" schrieb:

> Salve Nicola Moravi, Sulla, et alii,
>
> I don't understand what all this "'no confidence' in Censor Sulla"
> stuff is about. In my understanding, Sulla is one of the most active
> and useful censors of NR. He's definetly got _my_ 'confidence', at
> least!
>
> Hands off Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix!
>
> AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS
> Civis et barbarvs Novę Romę
> Propraetor Sarmatię Provincię
>
> Libertas inaestimabilis res est
>
> P.S. Nevertheless I think a censor should not delete citizens from
> the roles so quickly. A citizen could be ill, or in a business trip,
> or temporarily off-line, or there could be an old or wrong email
> address in censorial database... Perhaps a prevoius consultation with
> a respective provincial propraetor is nedeed in such cases?
>
> But all this doesn't mean we cannot trust Censor Sulla!
>
> --- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@e...
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Nicolaus Moravius wrote:
> >
> > > Salvete Quiriti
> > >
> > > I have been persuaded to withdraw my undertaking to present the
> > Praetor
> > > Urbanis with a case of 'no confidence' in Censor Sulla.
> >
> > Oh and am I supposed to be pleased! Take it to the Praetors! Here
> is a
> > list of
> > my accomplishments (without a colleague) as Censor:
> >
> > 1. I have approved 60 + citizen applications
> > 2. Cleaned up the roles from citizens who have asked to be removed
> with
> >
> > promptness and even with notification to the Pater/Materfamilias of
> > this.
> > 3. Got the citizen application situation caught up from December
> (when
> > there
> > was a backlog) and in March (when my colleague resigned). Both
> within a
> > month.
> > 4. Restored the Album Gentium with modifications 2 since February.
> > 5. Restored the Album Civium
> > 6. Passed on 10 edictas (Only one so far has brought on any
> > controversay)
> > 7. Promptly responding on all inquires from citizens, potential
> > citizens, and
> > anyone else who sent e-mails.
> > 8. Recalculated Century Points for all 400 + Citizens (BEFORE the
> > election)
> > 9. Sorted everyone in their correct Tribes in compliance with the
> Nova
> > Roma
> > Constitution.
> > 10. Sorted everyone in their proper Centuries.
> >
> > KEEP in mind all of this was done BEFORE May 5, and before I had a
> > colleague to
> > assist me in any duties.
> >
> > So, if someone wants to have a vote for no confidence in Lucius
> > Cornelius Sulla
> > Felix as Censor of Nova Roma let them please put their case before
> the
> > Praetors!
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor et Senator
> > Consular
> > Paterfamilias of the Patrican Gens Cornelia
> > Lictor
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> High long distance bills are HISTORY! Join beMANY!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4164/6/_/61050/_/958626927/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4164/6/_/61050/_/958626927/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clients
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <a --------="/post/novaroma?protectID=158059101122035091033" >3s@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 09:18:19 +0200

Salvete, omnes

For my opinion all Citizens of Nova Roma should take a look on the results
of his work, not on the way he fulfills his duties.

When I take a look onto the new e-mails, i think it“s trendy to attack some
magistrates.

Let the magistrates do their job. All our magistrates have my full
confidence.

Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Citizen of Nova Roma

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	Guido Costantini <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 10:51:04 +0200

Ave


well, I thank you, Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio, for your kind
invitation and I will seriously think about it... still, I think one of the
reason leading to the choice of a gens is that, eventually, you could meet
the member of it. If you really get involved in your gens life, and we all
agree it is auspicable, the fact that the members live in a different
country or in a different continent altogheter can become frustrating.

I'm closer and closer to the idea of founding my own gens and opening that
to the ones living in the real life Rome or Latium.. now, what I wonder
is.. should I hurry my decision in fear of an edictum restricting th
efreedom of founding a new gens it will be issued, or I can trust that the
edicta here follow the good old roman rule that wants the laws to prescribe
for the future only?


Regards

GC


At 23.31 16/05/00 +0200, you wrote:
>Ave Guido Constantini,
>...
>Besides, I do agree with the suggestion of encouraging new citizens to join
>an existing gens, and I think I should have done so. It is undoudtfully the
>best way to have a really sense of community within Nova Roma.
>But anyway, now that my gens exists, I want it to keep on going. In my
>sense, the only way for this purpose is, first to be personnaly more active
>in the NR activities, second to accept new members in my gens.
>
>That's why I propose you to join it if you wish to. We may get in touch in
>order to exchange our points of view, and if it prooves to suit you, I'll
>welcome you with pleasure. Even if we're not living in the same Province,
>we're not located very far (especially regarding US distance standards for
>instance). Besides, I really love Italia and have several opportunities to
>go there regularly. I would be delighted to welcome an Italian member in my
>gens.
>
>Keep in touch, you can emai-------- at &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
>
>Salve,
>Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
>Paterfamilias of Gens Queria

Subject:	Prospective Citizen Introduces himself.
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 04:10:29 -0500

Salve!

I am Decius Aucelius Sebastianus, and I am very pleased to make your
aquaintance. I am writing as a short introduction for myself to you. I am 24
years old, and live in Texas. I am a Body Piercer who has graduated from one
of the Police Academies in San Antonio, and am currently seeking Law
Enforcement employment. I have always been fascinated by Roman life,
culture, Religion, and Military stratix.

Vale
DAS

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Prospective Citizen Introduces himself.
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 01:51:06 -0700

Salve!

Feel free to jump into any conversation.....we wont bite too much..hehehe. :)

If there is anything I can do for you, please dont hesistate to ask.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Randall Drennan wrote:

> Salve!
>
> I am Decius Aucelius Sebastianus, and I am very pleased to make your
> aquaintance. I am writing as a short introduction for myself to you. I am 24
> years old, and live in Texas. I am a Body Piercer who has graduated from one
> of the Police Academies in San Antonio, and am currently seeking Law
> Enforcement employment. I have always been fascinated by Roman life,
> culture, Religion, and Military stratix.
>
> Vale
> DAS
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 72% off on Name brand Watches!
> Come and buy today and get free shipping!
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4011/6/_/61050/_/958640657/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4011/6/_/61050/_/958640657/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Prospective Citizen Introduces himself.
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 04:15:41 -0500

Salve!
Actually, I do not know if you directly handle such things, but on my
application for citizenship, I wrote 'Aucelium' as my nomen, this was a
mistake, it's supposed to be 'Aucelius'.
Also- was curious when a determination of Citizenship would be made- not
pressing, simply curious.
tertiary- have you any advise?
D A Sebastianus
ICQ#42510241
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius Corn--------s Sulla <a hr--------/post/novaroma?prot--------D=243128192154082190130232203077129208071" >al--------us@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Prospective Citizen Introduces himself.


: Salve!
:
: Feel free to jump into any conversation.....we wont bite too much..hehehe.
:)
:
: If there is anything I can do for you, please dont hesistate to ask.
:
: Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
: Censor
:
: Randall Drennan wrote:
:
: > Salve!
: >
: > I am Decius Aucelius Sebastianus, and I am very pleased to make your
: > aquaintance. I am writing as a short introduction for myself to you. I
am 24
: > years old, and live in Texas. I am a Body Piercer who has graduated from
one
: > of the Police Academies in San Antonio, and am currently seeking Law
: > Enforcement employment. I have always been fascinated by Roman life,
: > culture, Religion, and Military stratix.
: >
: > Vale
: > DAS
: >
: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: > 72% off on Name brand Watches!
: > Come and buy today and get free shipping!
: > <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4011/6/_/61050/_/958640657/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4011/6/_/61050/_/958640657/</a>
: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
:
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Did you know that eGroups offers
: calendars, group polls, storage files and more.
: Check out these great features at:
: <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/3938/6/_/61050/_/958640745/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/3938/6/_/61050/_/958640745/</a>
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
:
:

Subject:	Third Gender
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 11:08:39 +0100

Salvete

My opinion is that the "Third Gender" is a mere speculation, an abstraction
used to artificially characterise a feeling which would be natural for the
Romans.
Anyway, I would never put Vestal Virgins as part of a third Gender. The
Vestal Virgins were more like sacrifice victims, women that passed to the
property of the Gods (i.e. became SACRED). The proof is provided by Livy,
Roman History, I, 20, last line:
"By the vote of chastity and other pious practices, he (Romulus) akes them
venerable and SACRED."

SACRED did not mean "pure". Sacred, as defined by Cicero and Festus means
simply "belonging to the Gods". This is the reason why noone could touch the
Vestals, it was because they were property of the Gods and could not be
profanated. But they were women and were offered as women, not as "third
gender".

As to Elagabalus and the Galli, I must remind you that the former was Syrian
(and priest of a yet non-romanised Syrian God at Emesa) and the later were
orientals, often Phrygian. In Rome, they were both regarded as exotic and
out of context.
Even more, many scholars doubt the transgendered nature of Elagabalus, for
the Roman writers salso say that "he sacrificed children to Sol Invictus
Elagabalus in the Syrian way". Well, it is known that the cult of Emesa did
not involve human sacrifice, which provides an evidence that Roman writers
may have exagerated the character of Elagabalus for political reasons.

What is then the need for an un-natural third Gender, whose definition
itself would be exotic and maybe incomprehensible for the Romans? We have
saw from the statement of Ulpian that one belongs to the gender which is
more marked. This considers two genders - male and female - and one belongs
to one of them. There is no definition of a third gender in Varro's De
Lingua Latina, neither it is in Festus' De Natura Verborum.
Where, in what source did D. Monserrat find the definition of a third
gender?

It is useless to talk about these things based on mere speculation with no
supporting original sources. There is too much New Age "scholarly" material
out there on the magazines. There are people who want to prove that things
were in fact as they wished them to have been. This is WRONG. This is BAD
RESEARCH. Sometimes we must speculate for we don't have all info, but our
speculations must have solid clues, sometimes solid parallels. "Third
gender" was surely not a Roman definition, it does not appear on the
surviving works on the Latin language, not in the law (as we can see from
Ulpian), neither in ancient philosophical thinking as far as I know.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Quotes Vado Does Not Want You To See!
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 07:40:08 -0500 (CDT)

On Thu, 18 May 2000, Michael Marconi wrote:

>This whole idea of 'third gender' is a bunch of crap!

Thank you, Professor. Your well-researched, logical argument will surely
put an end to this debate.

> homosexuals -- I do believe their actions are vile, repulsive and
> biologically unfounded.

The debate wasn't even about homosexuals, yet you felt the need to
point this out. Any particular reason?

Is your attitude perhaps a cover for something? Such bigotry often
comes from closet cases who hate what they see in themselves.

Octavius

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com/" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com/</a>

Subject:	Confidence in Censor
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 05:51:24 -0700

You all should know that I am strongly at odds with the so called
gender edict that Sulla issued. I am also critical of others of his
edicts. This does not constitute a lack of confidence. He is a hard
worker. He means well. He makes mistakes. He is human.

C. Aelius Ericius.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Great Lakes Provincial cives and to any other interested in community
From:	Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 07:53:03 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Domitiane Propraetor,

> I was thinking about a certain large and scenic Wisconsin State
> Park where camping is available and inexpensive motels abound. Do we
> have enough interest ( at least 8-10 plus people confirmed )?

I would be interested; I'm reasonably close to southern Wisconsin.
Those citizens coming north from Chicago could possibly share a ride.

> There's plenty we could do in this senario. It would make a great
> weekend getaway and a way for us to socialize. Anything from a brief
> meeting on anything relevent to Nova Roma of the day, people bringing in
> books or coins, artifacts, etc., a card party, a nature hike, or even a
> ritual, and there's a swimming beach to boot. It's about establishing
> ourselves as a community.

A ritual would be best, accompanied by traditional Roman foods. I have
a Roman cookbook, but haven't tried any of the recipes yet... we could
decide on a menu in advance and divide up the work among all those
participants who can cook.

And as the weekend winds down we could watch "I, Claudius" and other
appropriate films.

Vale, Octavius.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
<a href="http://www.graveyards.com/" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com/</a>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 856
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 05:56:22 -0700

Sorry, Noct'a. I want to put my name to this demand. Yes,
"demand". We have enough problems and traffic without caca like
this. The type of thing is highly offensive in any venue. It is
utterly out of place here. And it is also interjecting outside
politics into this list, which has enough fecking politiks of its
own.. thank you!
Please, friends. Keep this stuff elsewhere.

C. Aelius Ericius.


Message: 2
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:43:30 EDT
From: <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=226107192180229130130232031248147208071048" >LSergAust@--------</--------;
Subject: Re: Fw: 'Mommy' and Please read.

I concur! Please no more of such dreck! We may all resign if there's
to
be more of that stuff.

L. Sergius Aust.


On 5/17/00 6:59 PM <--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------; (<--------ef="/post/nov----------------otectID=246243113180119209184102159248147208071048" >St--------eck@--------</--------;) wrote:

>Salve Citizens and List Patrons,
>
>DO NOT post any kind of "chain letters" or "pyramid schemes" to the
Nova
>Roma
>egroups/onelist mailing list!!!! Thats just plain bad online manners
and
>very annoying!
>
>Vale
>
>Iulius Titinius Antonius


utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!

(May barbarians invade your personal space!)





<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=034166250009056116130232203056129208071" &g--------bienus@--------&l--------&g--------td>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Prospective Citizen Introduces himself.
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 09:13:38 US/Central

Salve Deci Auceli, si vales valeo.

> I am 24 years old, and live in Texas. I am a Body Piercer who has graduated
> from one of the Police Academies in San Antonio, and am currently seeking

Do you currently live in San Antonio? If so, then you're quite close to gens
Labiena. I'm mostly interested in philosophy, military history, slowly
learning Latin, and ancient literature. My wife prefers ancient art, clothing,
jewelry, and social history. Our daughter is currently concentrating on
learning to walk.

Vale,
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re:[novaroma] No Confidence in Censor
From:	"George VanDeWater" <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=081166234150056086048038203219129208071" >vandewge@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 08:16:42 -0600

Salvete,

I for one have a great deal of confidence in Sulla. I believe that he has =
done great work in a short period of time. It is interesting that people =
can sit back and criticize but only two were willing to stand for Censor =
in the last election. Maybe they knew how much work is required and were =
not willing to take it on. Sulla's work speaks for itself.

Gaius Africanus Secundus

Subject:	Re: Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 10:40:30 -0400

Salvete

I understand from your previous posts that you have been trying to find Nova
Romans in Italia. As I said before, the lack of nearby existing gentes is,
in my view, a very valid reason for founding a new gens. Why? Because it
is entirely reasonable for gentiles to be able to meet each other
face-to-face, even regularly, if they so desire. My gens includes people
from the USA, Canada and Turkey. I cannot meet all of them, at least not
this decade. But I can certainly understand why others would choose to do
differently, and that is a gens prerogative that the state should support in
line with the constitution, not discourage.

I see some merit in M Cassius' Iulianus' suggestion to charge a registration
fee for new gentes, but I shall support only a fee that is charged to open a
new gens absent any of the normal conditions whereby a new gens would be
warranted (of course, the Senate may pass a consultum providing for a fee
that does not give the censores any discretion, and I, and any other censor,
shall then have to charge the fee automatically as the case may be).
Furthermore, any fee will have to be approved by a majority vote in the
Senate, and therefore you PROBABLY have several months to consider your gens
membership without having to worry about paying a registration fee to open a
new gens.

I hope that this answers your question.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus

-----Original Message-----
From: Guido Costantini <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy


>Ave
>
>
>well, I thank you, Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio, for your kind
>invitation and I will seriously think about it... still, I think one of the
>reason leading to the choice of a gens is that, eventually, you could meet
>the member of it. If you really get involved in your gens life, and we all
>agree it is auspicable, the fact that the members live in a different
>country or in a different continent altogheter can become frustrating.
>
>I'm closer and closer to the idea of founding my own gens and opening that
>to the ones living in the real life Rome or Latium.. now, what I wonder
>is.. should I hurry my decision in fear of an edictum restricting th
>efreedom of founding a new gens it will be issued, or I can trust that the
>edicta here follow the good old roman rule that wants the laws to prescribe
>for the future only?
>
>
>Regards
>
>GC
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Quotes Vado Does Not Want You To See!
From:	Guido Costantini <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 16:43:08 +0200

>> homosexuals -- I do believe their actions are vile, repulsive and
>> biologically unfounded.
>
>The debate wasn't even about homosexuals, yet you felt the need to
>point this out. Any particular reason?
>
>Is your attitude perhaps a cover for something? Such bigotry often
>comes from closet cases who hate what they see in themselves.
>
>Octavius
>


<--------lass="msghead"> &l--------href="/pos--------varoma?pro--------ID=132056219182127132169218031036129208" &g--------curia@--------&l--------&g--------td>

Subject:	A Century of Lelgionaries
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 10:19:53 -0500

Salvete Fortes Milites et Cives Romae:

Myself and the Optio of the artillery crew, of which I am a member, have
been discussing how great it
would be to muster up enough dedicated re-enactors to form the first century
of Roman Legionares
to march in the Provincia Americae. It was done not too long a go in
Britian; the first time in centuries for a century to march again on
European soil. It took a combination of other Legions from
France and Netherland-I believe. It would be a re-enactment historical
event for such a gathering here in the States. It may take an invitation to
our Europian brothers and sisters to achieve the event, but what a
fantastic event that would be. The work and organization for the event
would be
envolved, but what the end result would be worth it.

I would like to here some ideas and input in the subject. It could be
accomplished.

Valete
Rufa Paula Cornelia
Mile Romae
Tormentrix
Ferrum Romae fero.

Subject:	Digest Number 856 Re:No Confidence in Censor
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 12:24:03 -0400

Salvete,

As for this attack on Sulla, it's really sad. Sulla has done a TREMENDOUS
job, and he has stayed the course.
For those who have not been around long, Sulla and I have often 'butted
heads', possibly an understatement :-)
Some had even suggested that I "hate" him. Quite untrue! We have talked a
few times on the phone and he is a very friendly and likeable young man. He
has done a great job.
Thank you Lucius Cornelius Sulla! I hope to meet you in person some day.

He made a decision that in no way could satisfy everyone. However, that
decision (Gender edict) in no way infringed on anyone's 'rights' nor
'discriminated' against anyone. No one was denied the right to vote, hold
office, be come a citizen, engage in commerce, the right to participate in
all public forums and discussions. The only thing that was determined, was
that all citizens 'official' name, as registered with the Censores, reflect
their actual gender. Actually, I believe that there is a citizen who was
once a man but is now a woman and is registered as such, no problem.

If things like this are going to continue to be a concern, then we must
really consider what Nova Roma is. I joined because of the love of Rome, the
Religio and the Virtues, I don't see NovaRoma doing those things for the
most part. What I see are a few opinionated people trying to define what is
and is not Roman based on THEIR modern sensibility, clearly NOT the reason
Nova Roma was founded. Nova Roma was founded to RESTORE Roman values,
culture, Religion.
"NOVA ROMA is an organization dedicated to the study and restoration of
ancient Roman culture."
"The centerpiece of the activities of NOVA ROMA is the Religio Romana; the
ancient faith of the people of Rome."
"Also important is the Via Romana; a general revival of Roman culture, arts,
and most especially what are known as the Roman Virtues."

A link to ponder <a href="http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/antqty1.html" target="_top" >http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/antqty1.html</a>

Valete, Lucius Equitius


>Salve Nicola Moravi, Sulla, et alii,

>I don't understand what all this "'no confidence' in Censor Sulla"
>stuff is about. In my understanding, Sulla is one of the most active
>and useful censors of NR. He's definetly got _my_ 'confidence', at
>least!

>Hands off Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix!

>AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS
>Civis et barbarvs Novę Romę
>Propraetor Sarmatię Provincię

>Libertas inaestimabilis res est

>P.S. Nevertheless I think a censor should not delete citizens from
>the roles so quickly. A citizen could be ill, or in a business trip,
>>or temporarily off-line, or there could be an old or wrong email
>address in censorial database... Perhaps a prevoius consultation with
>a respective provincial propraetor is nedeed in such cases?

Lucius Equtius: CITIZENS should assume some responsibility and contact the
Censores if they have changed their address, email, snail mail or phone
number.

>But all this doesn't mean we cannot trust Censor Sulla!

--- In <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>, Lucius Cornelius Sulla alexious@e...
wrote:
>
>
> Nicolaus Moravius wrote:
>
> > Salvete Quiriti
> >
> > I have been persuaded to withdraw my undertaking to present the Praetor
> > Urbanis with a case of 'no confidence' in Censor Sulla.
>
> Oh and am I supposed to be pleased! Take it to the Praetors! Here is a
> list of
> my accomplishments (without a colleague) as Censor:
>
> 1. I have approved 60 + citizen applications
> 2. Cleaned up the roles from citizens who have asked to be removed with
> promptness and even with notification to the Pater/Materfamilias of this.
> 3. Got the citizen application situation caught up from December (when
> there was a backlog) and in March (when my colleague resigned). Both
within a
> month.
> 4. Restored the Album Gentium with modifications 2 since February.
> 5. Restored the Album Civium
> 6. Passed on 10 edictas (Only one so far has brought on any controversay)
> 7. Promptly responding on all inquires from citizens, potential
> citizens, and anyone else who sent e-mails.
> 8. Recalculated Century Points for all 400 + Citizens (BEFORE the
> election)
> 9. Sorted everyone in their correct Tribes in compliance with the Nova
> Roma Constitution.
> 10. Sorted everyone in their proper Centuries.
>
> KEEP in mind all of this was done BEFORE May 5, and before I had a
> colleague to assist me in any duties.
>
> So, if someone wants to have a vote for no confidence in Lucius
> Cornelius Sulla
> Felix as Censor of Nova Roma let them please put their case before the
> Praetors!
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor et Senator

Subject:	Re: Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 12:57:54 -0400

Salvete Luci Sergi et alii


>
>I agree that this should be addressed by some guidelines or limits on
>forming new one-person gentes.

I am certain of the need for guidelines, but I have strong doubts about the
need for an artificial, absolute limit in the number of gentes. I am not
sure that you are in favor of such a limit either, but just wanted to be
clear about my own position.

I recall that when I became a citizen
>(only a couple of years ago -- it seems like a decade),

I know what you mean.

one of my main
>reasons for forming a new gens was that I didn't know any of the other
>citizens and had no way to know if I would want to be a "kinsman" to any
>of them. I only recently accepted a second citizen into the Sergii, and
>they are not a spouse (at least not mine, anyway!).

The head of a gens can apply whatever criteria to the admission of new
gentiles that he/she thinks appropriate. A new gens can be formed and
choose at any time to stop accepting members as well. You know all this
already, of course.
>
>Might it not be helpful in this regard to allow (or require) new citizens
>to participate as neophytes(?) for 60 days or so before they applied to
>be members of a gens?

I certainly wouldn't want this to become a requirement. If people can find
gentes easily on their own, that is the best way. I think that a sort of
preliminary membership status would be possible, but probably more
complicated to implement than its benefits would warrant.

This could be analogous to a "maturity" rite
>(memory fails me at the moment with regard to the ceremony Romans
>actually had for the coming-of-age of young men). And it would both allow
>time for neophytes to get to know some people in various gentes, and
>allow the prospective gentes to get to know who might be a new member.

But, a person can look at our website, the album gentium, subscribe to this
list and find his/her way around before putting in an application. Also, a
citizen can seek adoption through his/her own pater/materfamilias and an
adoptive one if the citizen realizes at some point that he/she has a serious
problem with his/her current gens.
>
>It could be at the time of applying/being accepted into a gens that they
>could pay the fee suggested.

Noone, as far as I know, is proposing a fee for joining an existing gens. I
would certainly be opposed, strongly opposed, to any such fee, at least in
the absence of compelling budgetary considerations to suggest that it were
needed.

The fee for formation of a new gens, if
>approved by the Censores, could be a little higher to encourage the
>growth of existing gentes.

Any fee will have to be approved by the Senate, no matter how small the fee
may be.
>
>Vale,
>
>Lucius Sergius Australicus
>Tribunus Plebis et paterfamilias


Valete

C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus
Paterfamilias Mariae gentis

Subject:	De bona fide Censoris Sullae
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=243232178003185091033082" >amg@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 18:01:22 +0100

Salvete omnes

I publicly manifest my confidence on the work of Censor Lucius Cornelius
Sulla. The hard work of a man for this Respublica cannot be forgotten at the
first political or philosophical disagreement.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Great Lakes Provincial cives and to any other interested in community
From:	Marcus Traianus Valerius <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=029166091098194233050061175001147090048144091189251099013193116131142076083" >marcustrajanvalerius@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 10:12:22 -0700 (PDT)

SALVE!

You can count me in.



--- <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> --------e:
>
> Salve!!!
>
>
> Who would be interested in a physical meeting
> / get together later
> this summer or early fall???
>
> I was thinking about a certain large and scenic
> Wisconsin State
> Park where camping is available and inexpensive
> motels abound. Do we
> have enough interest ( at least 8-10 plus people
> confirmed )?
>
> There's plenty we could do in this senario. It
> would make a great
> weekend getaway and a way for us to socialize.
> Anything from a brief
> meeting on anything relevent to Nova Roma of the
> day, people bringing in
> books or coins, artifacts, etc., a card party, a
> nature hike, or even a
> ritual, and there's a swimming beach to boot. It's
> about establishing
> ourselves as a community.
>
> As governor of the Great Lakes Provincia I think
> now is the perfect
> time to make plans for some type of social event
> rather than just
> listening to whining and bitching on this newsgroup
> all summer. Anyone
> favorable to this type of idea before I go on and
> on????
> Any ideas to go along with this?
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
>
>
>


=====
Multas felicitates!
Marcus Traianus Valerius
Citizen Of Nova Roma
*********************************************************
E-Mail         : <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=174166091098194233143061175001147090010144091189251099013193116131142076083" >MarcusTrajanValerius@--------</a>
Home Page : www.geocities.com/marcustrajanvalerius
*********************************************************

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: A Century of Lelgionaries
From:	"RMerullo" <a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=194232192180194153138149203043129208071" >rmerullo@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 13:15:56 -0400

Salvete Rufa Paula et alii

You may want to contact my gensmate L Marius Fimbria, a legionarius who has
a list of legiones all over North America. I have put his address in the
cc: field of this message.

I am sure that you will succeed, if not next year then maybe within a couple
years thereafter. Please keep us informed and put out calls for assistance
when necessary.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
>

>France and Netherland-I believe. It would be a re-enactment historical
>event for such a gathering here in the States. It may take an invitation
to
>our Europian brothers and sisters to achieve the event, but what a
>fantastic event that would be. The work and organization for the event
>would be
>envolved, but what the end result would be worth it.
>
>I would like to here some ideas and input in the subject. It could be
>accomplished.
>
>Valete
>Rufa Paula Cornelia
>Mile Romae
>Tormentrix
>Ferrum Romae fero.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The world's largest musician community, with over 50,000 gear
>reviews and over 15,000 pages of content, is a click away.
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Prospective Citizen Introduces himself.
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 12:25:53 -0500

: Salve Deci Auceli, si vales valeo.
:
: > I am 24 years old, and live in Texas. I am a Body Piercer who has
graduated
: > from one of the Police Academies in San Antonio, and am currently
seeking
:
: Do you currently live in San Antonio? If so, then you're quite close to
gens
: Labiena. I'm mostly interested in philosophy, military history, slowly
: learning Latin, and ancient literature. My wife prefers ancient art,
clothing,
: jewelry, and social history. Our daughter is currently concentrating on
: learning to walk.

Fortunatus.

I live in New Braunfels, actually, and I am looking for others to talk with
on a regular to semi-regular basis. Would be willing to make a drive, under
your terms, of course.

Vale,

D A Sebastianus





: Vale,
: T Labienus Fortunatus
:
:
:
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Let us remember those important dates for you!
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:

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Quotes nobody wants to see!
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 13:48:30 EDT

In a message dated 5/18/2000 7:48:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
<a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a> writes:

<< for what I know, roman public officers tended to avoid
quarrels (with all the historians doubly underlining the ones who actually
entered or actually started them, especially the tribuni plebis, in my
opinion cause they were the exceptions to the rule). Opinions?
>>
Salvete!
Actually as Senior Consul I try to keep a low profile on the public list,
magistrates shouldn't engage in public debate. The exceptions would be our
two Praetors since they are charged with interpreting our constitution and
its effect on our laws, and the Tribunes of the Plebs, who are very
opinionated anyway. It goes with the job.
I want to remind everybody, that Rome never allowed true free speech. There
were certain subjects that were taboo. So it should be with us. In my
opinion if someone is happy about their sexual preference and unhappy about
others' great, but leave it off the list. This list is about doings in Nova
Roma, Roman history, and acts as a political conduit for our magistrates.
If you don't like people who like people of the same sex, you have the right
to do so, but don't pontificate about it on the list. If you want to speak
about how homosexuality caused problems in the baths of Caracalla (Septimius
Bassianus) during the second century, it becomes a part of Roman history and
is allowable.
"I hate homos!" "I love threesomes!" is not. See the difference?
As for the gender edictum the Senate will be considering it. So citizens, it
won't be a unilateral decision by the censor anymore which has disturbed many
of you.
My final comment concerns censor L. Cornelius Sulla. The man has done much
for the office of censor. You should be pleased about that. While many of
you disliked some of his edicta, L. Cornelius Sulla has done solid work on
the citizen rolls, and should be commended by Rome, not vilified. Hopefully
once the edictum situation is resolved, you will be able to see that.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gender Issue (Painless, I promise!)
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 13:52:04 EDT

In a message dated 05/17/2000 1:29:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> write--------r>
<< I will be sending copies of the actual documentation to those who have
requested it.) >>
Salve Fimbria,

I would like to request a copy of the documentation regarding this matter.
As a gay man I have a keen interest in this matter.

Thank You
Marius Lucianus Silvanus
Paterfamilias
Gens Luciania

Subject:	Forum Space
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 12:59:36 -0500

Salve

Question:

Approx. how much space would be required to build a forum? Where would it
need to be built? Are there any architectural plans currently? Please be
patient with my incessant questions, and I may have hit on an idea.

D A Sebastianus

Subject:	(no subject)
From:	w--------am wheeler <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=125075047121158135036082190036" >wuffa@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 11:41:53 -0700

Salve Marcus Cornelius Felix pontitff and house priest of the Cornelia
Greets most of you.
I must also publicly manifest my confidence on the work of Censor Lucius
Cornelius
Sulla. The hard work of a man for this Respublica cannot be forgotten at
the
first political or philosophical disagreement.I think he has done more
work in his office of Censor then any other person.
Now mind you I have disagreement with his laws that he has passed , But
as I am of his Gen I do not feel i could say anything till now.
but his work in office is to me of very high level even if some of the
laws he has passed would not have been worded that way if i was Censor
but as i am not censor it will pass i think. he has made the Office of
censor much beeter then when he fould it.
Vale

Subject:	Re: Censor Sulla
From:	Mariu--------mbria <a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 14:11:50 -0500 (CDT)

Salvete omnes!

> While many of you disliked some of his edicta, L. Cornelius Sulla has
> done solid work on the citizen rolls, and should be commended by
> Rome, not vilified. Hopefully once the edictum situation is
> resolved, you will be able to see that.

I have seen that already; Cornelius Sulla Censor has been most
energetic in his performance of his office, and, that one edictum aside
(it's not like he and I have never disagreed before!), I have not
failed to be suitably impressed.

Ave, Luci Corneli Sulla! Vivat, vivat, vivat!!

> Valete
> Q. Fabius Maximus

In fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<a href="/po--------ovaroma?protectID=034056178009193116148218000036129208" >legion6@--------</a> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	Constitution & Nature of the Republic
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 15:54:32 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

I find the current trend of "debate" in our Forum to be more and more divorced from what I believe is relevant or beneficial to what I perceive to be the original purpose of Nova Roma. Nor do I find the "values" being tossed about to be at all expedient or useful to its goals, and certainly not to its sober Citizens who take the privileges and responsibilities of their status within the Republic seriously. To the contrary, I see divisiveness and folly being generated and constantly renewed, burning to ashes one moment and the next, rising once more full-blown like a phoenix flapping and croaking its raucous monotonous "melody."

To establish the tone of this posting, I quote from the Preamble to the Constitution of the Republic: "As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

Thus far, I have witnessed individuals who are incensed at the furtherance of Roman Religion, individuals who are outraged at the established moral and ethical structure of Classical Rome, and individuals who seem to believe that Nova Roma is not "patterned upon [the culture, religion and society] of ancient Rome," but rather on some strange quasi-latinised hybrid of neo-Western Hollywood-cum-Oprah Winfrey philosophy of anything goes anytime anywhere for any reason by anyone and the devil take him who first says nay. The common factor shared by these three types of individuals is very simple: "I want to remake Nova Roma into the image that is (at least for the moment) best to my liking." It is *not* apparent in any of these three cases that the individuals involved have even read the Constitution, let alone taken it seriously or -- Gods forbid! -- undertaken to apply its implied responsibilities (and privileges) to their own lives and lifestyles.

I believe I may fairly say that, unfortunate as it may be, Nova Roma will never be able to convert itself into something that is "all things to all men." Unless, of course, we jettison the Constitution and turn the Republic into a sort of come-as-you-are Romanised Rotarian Club. I feel somewhat sad that the former cannot be accomplished; I would be utterly dismayed to see the latter occur.

Simply put, Nova Roma as founded may not be for absolutely everyone on the face of this earth. Not everyone who peeks in the door may like what they find inside. This is not the fault of the Republic and the Republic is not obliged to remake itself in the face of every new and sundry complaint and objection to its "housekeeping." To the contrary, the Constitution clearly states what our "interior decor" is, what our civic lifestyle is intended to be, and what our corporate goals and aspirations are. It is *not* for Nova Roma to change itself to suit Everyman. To do so is impossible in any event. To attempt to do so at every turn, in stark contradiction to our founding principles, is nothing less than suicidal. Either we are what we proclaim ourselves in our Constitution to be, or we are not. We either pattern our Republic and our lives on the Virtues, culture, religion and society of Rome (insofar as possible, granted) or we are pantomime "Romans," neither fish nor fow!
l.

I propose that the Constitution be established as the ultimate judge and rule whereby we measure our undertakings, our proposals, and our demands. If we propose to change this or that, let us first ask "Does it accord with the Constitution?" Is so, keep it. If not, toss it out and let it be heard of no more. Otherwise, we will argue until doomsday, catering to a succession of irrelevant and implacable demands, from individuals who will never be pleased in this world or the next, and in the end not only find ourselves not greater than we were in the beginning, but rather far, far less than we should have become.

Valete Omnes,
Acadianus Draco

Subject:	Re: Great Lakes Provincial cives and to any other interested in community
From:	Megas-Rob--------n <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 17:28:08 -0500

Avete,

Venii scripsit:
>
> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 07:53:03 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mar--------O--------ius Germani--------<a href="/post/novaroma?prote--------=180075219163056135025082190036" >hu----------------</a>
> Subject: Re: Great Lakes Provincial cives and to any other interested in community
>
> Salve Domitiane Propraetor,
>
> > I was thinking about a certain large and scenic Wisconsin State
> > Park where camping is available and inexpensive motels abound. Do we
> > have enough interest ( at least 8-10 plus people confirmed )?
>
> I would be interested; I'm reasonably close to southern Wisconsin.
> Those citizens coming north from Chicago could possibly share a ride.
>
> > There's plenty we could do in this senario. It would make a great
> > weekend getaway and a way for us to socialize. Anything from a brief
> > meeting on anything relevent to Nova Roma of the day, people bringing in
> > books or coins, artifacts, etc., a card party, a nature hike, or even a
> > ritual, and there's a swimming beach to boot. It's about establishing
> > ourselves as a community.
>
> A ritual would be best, accompanied by traditional Roman foods. I have
> a Roman cookbook, but haven't tried any of the recipes yet... we could
> decide on a menu in advance and divide up the work among all those
> participants who can cook.
>
> And as the weekend winds down we could watch "I, Claudius" and other
> appropriate films.
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
> Microsoft delenda est!
> <a href="http://www.graveyards.com/" target="_top" >http://www.graveyards.com/</a>
>

I live just a couple of miles off I-90, just south of the Wisconsin border with Illinois (Rockford,
IL area).
Anytime after mid-July would be fine with me.

In Amicus sub Fidelis - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy
From:	"yquere" &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
Date:	Fri, 19 May 2000 00:33:23 +0200

Salve Guido Constantini

I agree with you when you say that geographical proximity is easier. Yet,
you can be close to someone even if you meet this person not very often.

I also understand your desire to found your own gens for geographical
reasons. or to join an existing one for geographical proximity. That was my
purpose too at the beginning. Now I think that it is always possible to
interact fully even in a remoted way.

There are not many citizens in western europe and it is more difficult for
us to find a gens in the area corresponding to what we seek. I think that
the expansion of Nova Roma must take into account that creating a new gens
in a provincia which is not strongly "settled" is almost as important of
having a gens with numerous members. This could be a criteria more accurate
then a basic numbers criteria.

Vale
Ianus Querius Armoricus



----- Original Message -----
From: Guido Costantini <a hre--------post/novaroma?protectID=230128180163056135105082190036" >--------e@--------</a>
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Request for comments on censorial policy


> Ave
>
>
> well, I thank you, Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio, for your kind
> invitation and I will seriously think about it... still, I think one of
the
> reason leading to the choice of a gens is that, eventually, you could meet
> the member of it. If you really get involved in your gens life, and we all
> agree it is auspicable, the fact that the members live in a different
> country or in a different continent altogheter can become frustrating.
>
> I'm closer and closer to the idea of founding my own gens and opening that
> to the ones living in the real life Rome or Latium.. now, what I wonder
> is.. should I hurry my decision in fear of an edictum restricting th
> efreedom of founding a new gens it will be issued, or I can trust that the
> edicta here follow the good old roman rule that wants the laws to
prescribe
> for the future only?
>
>
> Regards
>
> GC
>
>
> At 23.31 16/05/00 +0200, you wrote:
> >Ave Guido Constantini,
> >...
> >Besides, I do agree with the suggestion of encouraging new citizens to
join
> >an existing gens, and I think I should have done so. It is undoudtfully
the
> >best way to have a really sense of community within Nova Roma.
> >But anyway, now that my gens exists, I want it to keep on going. In my
> >sense, the only way for this purpose is, first to be personnaly more
active
> >in the NR activities, second to accept new members in my gens.
> >
> >That's why I propose you to join it if you wish to. We may get in touch
in
> >order to exchange our points of view, and if it prooves to suit you, I'll
> >welcome you with pleasure. Even if we're not living in the same Province,
> >we're not located very far (especially regarding US distance standards
for
> >instance). Besides, I really love Italia and have several opportunities
to
> >go there regularly. I would be delighted to welcome an Italian member in
my
> >gens.
> >
> >Keep in touch, you can emai-------- at &-------- href="/post/novaroma?protectID=160000044056127198015181190036129" >yquere@--------&--------a>
> >
> >Salve,
> >Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
> >Paterfamilias of Gens Queria
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Make new friends, find the old at Classmates.com:
> <a href="http://click.egroups.com/1/4052/6/_/61050/_/958640121/" target="_top" >http://click.egroups.com/1/4052/6/_/61050/_/958640121/</a>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Subject:	Confident in Magistrates, including Censor
From:	Megas-Rob--------n <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=243232178182078116015056190036129" >amgunn@--------</a>
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 17:33:20 -0500

Avete Omnes,

Venii scripsit:

Anyone who takes up the burden of an office in Nova Roma has my confidence and publisc support. If
there are decisions with which I disagree, I use private e-mails first. I'm not Roman enough, I
guess, to want to air everything out right away.

mea sententia - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Great Lakes Provincial cives and to any other interested in co...
From:
Date:	Thu, 18 May 2000 19:31:33 EDT

In a message dated 05/18/2000 12:56:37 AM Central Daylight Time,
<a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=114056113185089095081021203102129208071" >dean6886@--------</a> --------es:

<< Salve!!!


Who would be interested in a physical meeting / get together later
this summer or early fall???

I was thinking about a certain large and scenic Wisconsin State
Park where camping is available and inexpensive motels abound. Do we
have enough interest ( at least 8-10 plus people confirmed )?

There's plenty we could do in this senario. It would make a great
weekend getaway and a way for us to socialize. Anything from a brief
meeting on anything relevent to Nova Roma of the day, people bringing in
books or coins, artifacts, etc., a card party, a nature hike, or even a
ritual, and there's a swimming beach to boot. It's about establishing
ourselves as a community.

As governor of the Great Lakes Provincia I think now is the perfect
time to make plans for some type of social event rather than just
listening to whining and bitching on this newsgroup all summer. Anyone
favorable to this type of idea before I go on and on????
Any ideas to go along with this?

Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>>

Salvete!

I live in a Northwest suburb of Chicago and I would be very interested in
attending a gathering such as the one described here. Please keep me
informed of any developments.

Ursus Sitheus Ragnos

Subject:	Sulla & the Gender Edictum
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <a href="/post/novaroma?protectID=014130014161146028033082190" >bvm3@--------</a>
Date:	Fri, 19 May 2000 01:58:26 +0200

Salvete Quirites!

Our Censor L. Cornelius Sulla recently posted a list of his
accomplishments. I believe that it was based on solid fact,
and that it shows an enormous industry and dedication to
Nova Roma. I do not on that account agree with his Gender
Edictum, but it distresses me that some people have said
things here tending to impugn his character, and suggesting
implausible things, such as that he has been removing people
from the rolls over trivia or is a mere political
opportunist.

The fact of the matter is that we have here one very
outstanding Nova Roman. I could only wish that he would of
his own accord refine the Gender Edictum a bit to reflect
the legitimate personal concerns of the transsexuals who
were, are, and may be among us. Such a voluntary refinement
of the Edictum, taking into account both new legal
information and the popular will, would make our Censor's
already admirable record - perfect. But let's not snipe at
him just because we disagree with him on one issue out of
many.

Valete!

M. Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae,
Founding Triumvir, Societatis Latinitatis
Silesia, Polonia


L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

Here is a list of my accomplishments (without a colleague)
as Censor:

1. I have approved 60 + citizen applications
2. Cleaned up the roles from citizens who have asked to be
removed
with promptness and even with notification to the
Pater/Materfamilias of
this.
3. Got the citizen application situation caught up from
December (when
there was a backlog) and in March (when my colleague
resigned). Both within a month.
4. Restored the Album Gentium with modifications 2 since
February.
5. Restored the Album Civium
6. Passed on 10 edictas (Only one so far has brought on any

controversay)
7. Promptly responding on all inquires from citizens,
potential
citizens, and anyone else who sent e-mails.
8. Recalculated Century Points for all 400 + Citizens
(BEFORE the
election)
9. Sorted everyone in their correct Tribes in compliance
with the Nova
Roma Constitution.
10. Sorted everyone in their proper Centuries.

KEEP in mind all of this was done BEFORE May 5, and before I
had a
colleague to assist me in any duties.

So, if someone wants to have a vote for no confidence in
Lucius
Cornelius Sulla Felix as Censor of Nova Roma let them please
put their case before the Praetors!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor et Senator
Consular
Paterfamilias of the Patrican Gens Cornelia
Lictor

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