| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] ATTN: EDICTUM Propraetoricium |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 23 May 2000 17:21:58 -0700 |
|
Congrats! Gaius Flavius! I am sure you will excell in this position.
L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
RexMarcius@-------- wrote:
> This an edictum propraetoricium
> enacted by Marcus Marcius Rex, Propraetor Germaniae
>
> I am happy to announce that Gaius Flavius Diocletianus is hereby appointed to
> the position of Legatus Germaniae for the Germany region. It is also decreed
> that for all official communication within the province of Germania the use
> of German as an official language is hereby also allowed.
>
> I myself will remain residing in the region of Austria.
>
> Diocletianus has already shown a high degree of commitment to Nova Roma and
> he will be entrusted with the development of the provincial Website. I have
> high hopes for the future of our province and look forward to an interesting
> working relationship with my legate!
>
> Marcus Marcius Rex
> Propraetor Germaniae
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
Lykaion1@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 23 May 2000 23:10:53 EDT |
|
Salvete,
Last summer, at 33 years of age, I went away to Fort Leonard Wood, MO for
4 months of Army basic training and MP school. During basic, the drill
sergeants talked alot about "The Army Values".
There are seven, and they are summed up in the acronym LDRSHIP.
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage
I wish I could say I liked my experience. But the truth is, I hated it.
At 33, it was difficult to be in a position where I was being told what to do
all the time.
One day we had an inspection by the company commander. The captain might
ask the recruit any question. When he got to me, I was asked which Army
Value I felt I needed the most improvement in. I said Personal Courage. {I
am scared to death of climbing heights, and I had to climb a 60 ft tower on
the confidence course}.
Looking over the Roman Virtues, I thought these would make an excellent
topic for discussion. So I will open with the same question the Captain
asked me: What is the Roman Virtue you need the most improvement on?
Gaius Lupinius Festus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
DrususCornelius@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 00:00:15 EDT |
|
Salvete!
What a great topic Festus! I believe that the most important ideal
coming out of Nova Roma are the Roman Virtues. Without the Virtues, there is
no way for a Republic like ours to survive. The people as a whole in Nova
Roma must posses a sense of Comitas and Dignitas for instance, so we can get
through the little squabbles and disagreements that occasionally prop their
ugly heads up on this list; our magistrates need to posses Honestas,
Humanitas, and Industria in order to hold the Republic together in Her early
stages, and they must also have Severitas and Gravitas in order pull Her
through tough situations as they may arise.
If I were to choose one virtue that I must improve on is my sense of Pieta
s. I find I become far too easily disillusioned with the goings-on in our
Republic, and have often considered leaving Nova Roma because of the petty
disagreements and insulting correspondences that often occur between our
citizens. In order to improve my Pietas, or sense of duty to Nova Roma, to
The Gods, to my gens Cornelia, and my family outside of Nova Roma, I must
understand that my immediate discomfort is
wholly unimportant in the grand scale of the eternal history of human
experience; understanding this will help me to put my personal interests
aside and to work for the greater good at all times.
Now, I would not like to dwell on the negatives, simply stating what I
need to improve upon; so, may I say which virtue I believe I excel at most? V
eritas is, in my opinion, the most important virtue, and I try to keep it in
mind in all aspects of my life. I try to be totally honest and open with
everyone and at all times (as certain members within my own gens have
witnessed first hand :), and to state my opinion wherever I feel it can do
some good.
So, cives, what about the rest of you? I'm interested in knowing what is
important to everyone :)
For the Senate and the Roman People, Valete!
Drusus Cornelius Claudius
<< Salvete,
Last summer, at 33 years of age, I went away to Fort Leonard Wood, MO
for
4 months of Army basic training and MP school. During basic, the drill
sergeants talked alot about "The Army Values".
There are seven, and they are summed up in the acronym LDRSHIP.
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage
I wish I could say I liked my experience. But the truth is, I hated it.
At 33, it was difficult to be in a position where I was being told what to
do
all the time.
One day we had an inspection by the company commander. The captain
might
ask the recruit any question. When he got to me, I was asked which Army
Value I felt I needed the most improvement in. I said Personal Courage. {I
am scared to death of climbing heights, and I had to climb a 60 ft tower on
the confidence course}.
Looking over the Roman Virtues, I thought these would make an excellent
topic for discussion. So I will open with the same question the Captain
asked me: What is the Roman Virtue you need the most improvement on?
Gaius Lupinius Festus
>>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
"Sheridan/ Hibernicus" <legioix@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 05:17:22 -0000 |
|
I like:
Fidelitas, Virtus , Magnanamitas
Salve
Hibernicus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 08:33:20 +0200 |
|
Salvete, omnes.
The most important virtue for a community like ours is Concordia. Only with
Concordia our Citizens, living around the world, will hold together with the
sense of being Romans.
Industria is the second value. Hard work is necessary to manage and expand this
Nation of Romans.
Once upon a time a roman emperor, I think it was Pertinax, issued his first
decree with the leading word MILITEMUS, "we want to serve". All citizens should
serve Nova Roma.
Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Lykaion1@-------- schrieb:
> Salvete,
>
> Last summer, at 33 years of age, I went away to Fort Leonard Wood, MO for
> 4 months of Army basic training and MP school. During basic, the drill
> sergeants talked alot about "The Army Values".
> There are seven, and they are summed up in the acronym LDRSHIP.
> Loyalty
> Duty
> Respect
> Selfless Service
> Honor
> Integrity
> Personal Courage
>
> I wish I could say I liked my experience. But the truth is, I hated it.
> At 33, it was difficult to be in a position where I was being told what to do
> all the time.
>
> One day we had an inspection by the company commander. The captain might
> ask the recruit any question. When he got to me, I was asked which Army
> Value I felt I needed the most improvement in. I said Personal Courage. {I
> am scared to death of climbing heights, and I had to climb a 60 ft tower on
> the confidence course}.
>
> Looking over the Roman Virtues, I thought these would make an excellent
> topic for discussion. So I will open with the same question the Captain
> asked me: What is the Roman Virtue you need the most improvement on?
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> SHOPPING for DEALS? The merchants at BuyItOnline.com are offering up
> to 30% OFF great gear, wear, gadgets and more, now through April 15,
> 2000. Real stores. Real Deals. Real Easy. Go get something great!
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Vado's quotes (sort of) |
| From: |
Guido Costantini <flyke@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 12:29:28 +0200 |
|
At 13.49 23/05/00 EDT, you wrote:
>But one thing I do find ironic, is that while advocating the view that
>Sulla's edict should have been voted on, you produce as a precedent a court
>decision, which imposes itself on the people of the EU. Did they "vote" on
>this? Or did a court impose this bad decision on the EU nations?
Indirectly, we did vote on that... in fact , the EU court (actually, courtS
now) can't, for various reasons, impose anything on the countries.. it can,
instead, just affirm that this or that law is against either the EU
treaties or the EU laws (regulaments) or state that a given country's laws
are behind in being uniformed to the EU directives... now, in all these
cases, we european citizens indirectly voted on when we elected our
governments, parliaments and our rapresentatives in the EU parliament that,
in various ways, made those treaties, regulaments and directives...
sometimes even voted directly, with referenda about joining or not the EU
or accepting this or that separate treaty (Schenghen one, for istance...
not all the countries accepted the principle of free moving within the UE,
UK didn't)
Now, if that is true (and I hope no one will say that the government thro
rapresentatives isn't a legitimate one, or we could even work here without
all the various public officers), since the court just adfirmed principles
that our own government and rapresentants stated in the treaties... we
concurred in those decisions.
regards
GC
(now pending the request of citizenship)
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Vado's quotes (sort of) |
| From: |
Lykaion1@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 07:07:01 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/24/00 6:31:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
flyke@-------- writes:
<< Now, if that is true (and I hope no one will say that the government thro
rapresentatives isn't a legitimate one, or we could even work here without
all the various public officers), since the court just adfirmed principles
that our own government and rapresentants stated in the treaties... we
concurred in those decisions. >>
Can you post the law this bad decision is based on?
It is interesting, but it is also irrelevant. The last time I checked, NR is
not a member state of the EU, and so not bound by anything it's courts do.
Festus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem IX Kalendas Iunii (May 24th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 11:56:30 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
Today (QRCF = Quando Rex Comitiavit Fas) is like a 'dies intercisus', which
is both fastus (day devoted to men in which public busyness could take
place) and nefastus (day devoted to the Gods in which no public busyness
could take place). The Rex Sacrorum announces to the people until what time
the day is to be considered 'nefastus'. The rest of the day is to be
considered 'fastus'.
Pax Deorum Vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Vado's quotes (sort of) |
| From: |
Lykaion1@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 07:19:16 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/24/00 6:31:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
flyke@-------- writes:
<< now, in all these
cases, we european citizens indirectly voted on when we elected our
governments, parliaments and our rapresentatives in the EU parliament >>
Sorry, I forgot to add this to the earlier post. Your statement here is a
two edged sword. I can point out that in exactly the same way, the citizens
of NR did indirectly vote on the edict when they elected the censor and
willfully entered into a society whose Constitution grants the censor such
power. But I do not think Maria would be convinced by this, in the same way
that I am not persuaded by a judicial hand down.
Festus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Roman Virtues |
| From: |
"Jane or Patricia " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 11:42:41 -0000 |
|
What an interesting topic, Festus! Thank you!
I will not follow the example of citing the virtue at which I
consider
myself best, but I do think I need to work on Salubritas. I visit the
baths (OK, the bath) frequently, but far too often I fail to stop in
the exercise yard! ;)
Patricia Cassia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 12:40:45 +0100 |
|
Salvete
I think I have to work more my Prudentia. I use to think about the problems
and its consequences. I maneuver very conservatively in the beginning. But
once the battle cries begin, I take the gamble and boldly (often too boldly)
charge.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Vado's quotes (sort of) |
| From: |
Guido Costantini <flyke@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 14:22:32 +0200 |
|
At 07.19 24/05/00 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Sorry, I forgot to add this to the earlier post. Your statement here is a
>two edged sword. I can point out that in exactly the same way, the citizens
>of NR did indirectly vote on the edict when they elected the censor and
>willfully entered into a society whose Constitution grants the censor such
>power. But I do not think Maria would be convinced by this, in the same way
>that I am not persuaded by a judicial hand down.
>
>Festus
Actually, is not... I believe exactly in that... you elected a censor who
made the edict... the citizens have both the right to manifestate their
opposite opinions in the hope the censor will change the edict, but even
more the power to elect, next time, someone who will use, as a part of his
campaign to be elected, the intention of removing that edict. That, unless
there is some higher principle the edict goes against... but even in this
case, the interpretation of the constitution is the prerogative of anoter
organ, not of the simple citizen... if you do not agree about how the
constitution was interpreted (and since the edict was made quite a while
ago, I guess it was interpreted as allowing such edict) is your right to
vote for someone else in the interpreting organ.
After all, democracies were born to have the chance of changing, directly
or indirectly, the top officers of a country, as opposed to blood rights,
not for having every citizen able to decide for the country on every given
question every day... that, if would be still possible in a relatively
small community as this is, historycally led to neverending civil wars and
internal struggles.
Basically... you elected an officer as you elect a rl government... after
one week, two weeks.. three weeks of demontrations against a given act of
them, being clear that the intention of the officer or government is to
keep that act, stay with it and next time vote for someone else.
Just my two cents,
regards
GC
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Vado's quotes (sort of) |
| From: |
Guido Costantini <flyke@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 14:27:09 +0200 |
|
At 07.07 24/05/00 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 5/24/00 6:31:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>flyke@-------- writes:
>
><< Now, if that is true (and I hope no one will say that the government thro
> rapresentatives isn't a legitimate one, or we could even work here without
> all the various public officers), since the court just adfirmed principles
> that our own government and rapresentants stated in the treaties... we
> concurred in those decisions. >>
>
>Can you post the law this bad decision is based on?
>
>It is interesting, but it is also irrelevant. The last time I checked, NR
is
>not a member state of the EU, and so not bound by anything it's courts do.
>
>Festus
I can't, for I had and have no interest at all in the subject and therefore
didn't mind to check the EU treaties principles and the member countries'
laws about this peculiar subject.. all I was doing was just making an
observation about the fact the EU court can't impose anything at all as a
direct order to the member countries, but just point out the violations of
these countries to principles they, and indirectly the citizens of these
countries, have agreed upon themself... in case, they can impose a fine,
but never pointing the finger saying "you, country, delete this law and
make one stating this this and this"... that's all.
regards
GC
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <sarmaticus@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 13:23:03 -0000 |
|
Salve noble civis,
Interesting topic indeed. Frankly speaking, I feel that I should
improve _all_ my "virtues". But especially Salubritas, Pietas,
Industria (Hard work - if "Hard work" for NR is meant), Dignitas,
Comitas... Well, all of them!;-)
Here comes another question: what _public_ (not personal) virtues
does NR (as a whole, as a nation) need now most of all, in your
opinion? What must be improved first of all, what to work at or with?
I suppose thet Pax, Justica "Justice", Concordia, Aequitas...
All "political" ones.
And Yes! Certainly Ops: "Wealth" !!! BTW what is this "Ops" at NR
website? Is there such funny word in Latin? Perhaps a mistake?
AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS
Civis et barbarvs Novæ Romæ
Propraetor Sarmatiæ Provinciæ
Libertas inaestimabilis res est
Vale(te) in pace
> Looking over the Roman Virtues, I thought these would make an
excellent
> topic for discussion. So I will open with the same question the
Captain
> asked me: What is the Roman Virtue you need the most improvement
on?
>
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Vado's quotes (sort of) |
| From: |
JustiniaCassia@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 10:23:05 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/24/0 6:07:34 AM, Lykaion1@-------- writes:
<< It is interesting, but it is also irrelevant. The last time I checked, NR
is
not a member state of the EU, and so not bound by anything it's courts do.
>>
I believe Fimbria was asked to provide a macronational example of
transgendered folk being legally allowed to declare a gender at odds with
their sex. This was her example. Hence, the relevance.
Iustinia Cassia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 09:15:30 PDT |
|
Salvete!
Festus asked us which Roman virtue we felt we needed most to cultivate in
ourselves (though he neglected to mention any similar personal deficiency in
himself).
For me, this highlights a major problem when we start citing these noble
abstractions - id est, one of perception (the way we see both ourselves, and
others). Let me offer a few examples:
1. I have Dignitas: YOU can be a bit stuffy at times; HE has the fasces up
his backside.
2. I have Comitas; YOU are everyone's friend; HE is a tart.
3. I have Severitas; YOU sometimes over-react; HE is a little Caracalla.
4. I have Veritas; YOU are mistaken; HE is a liar.
5. I have Auctoritas; YOU have the honour to be a magistrate; HE is unfit
for office.
6. I have Fidelitas; YOU know which side of your bread the garum's on; HE is
a two-faced sycophant.
7. I have Gravitas; YOU need to lighten up a bit; HE is a miserable sod.
What do we all need most? Mea sententia - PERSPICACITAS!
Bene valete,
Vado.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 13:26:19 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salvete, Vado, Festus and Citizens of Nova Roma;
LOL!!!!!!!!! "All those around here are a little strange except for me
and thee (and sometimes I wonder about thee!!!!!)"
Perception is indeed one of the bases from which all of us view the
world. One of the facets of wisdom is to try to see each person with
whom you (as the collective you) deal in as fair a light as you see
yourself.
For myself, I suppose "Firmitas" is my most difficult goal. I probably
work harder at that, with less success than any other item of mention in
the Virtues. This is not a new problem, but rather one that has caused
me some pain in my past endeavors. I have always admired and envied
those who could look at a problem, go past all the unimportant trivia
and sieze upon the kernal of truth, from which the answer was apparent.
In my world, there is a constant struggle to weigh, sift, evaluate,
consider and view all aspects of a problem / question before making a
decision. In my early years things were not so difficult and decisions
came much easier--but as I look back I sometimes cringe at the decisions
that I have made simply because the informaton was not reviewed
carefully.
I had a recent discussion with a member of the NR Magistry about this
very topic in which we discussd the charging ahead and making of
decisions in order to get things done and go on to the next item. and I
admit fully to the necessity of that feeling--but the thing that
increasingly bothers me is the old saying---
"We do not have sufficient tme to look at all facets of a problem, but
there is plenty of time available to return and fix a bad decision."
I am sure that some on the list, will relate the above as a criticism to
a recent discussion on the list, but in fact no such meaning is
intended. I am responding here to my own weaknesses, and no-one elses.
I thank Festus for this line of thought. There is much here to
consider, and Vado's humorous but very pointed comments are certainly
indicative of that.
One of the contributors to the list has asked what NR collectively
identifies as a failing and I think I would reply that to my
mind--Humanitus, Comitas and Clementia are the things that NR as a whole
must cultivate:
The use of Sarcasm, Anger, Foul Language, and looking Down upon those
not as educated or as aware as you are is severely damaging to the
micronation in the short term and in the long term as well. These
problems / injuries do not go away immediately but linger for long
periods of time, and in some cases are never forgotten. Be aware of
what is said, and how it will affect the recipient. It is not necessary
to insult to make a point. In my view an insult to make a point is an
strong indication of the inability of the insult-giver to express
himself or herself adequately within the Roman Virtues which we all
presumably are striving to emulate.
I wish to thank both of my good friends, Vado and Festus for the
opportunity to comment on such a refreshing line of consideration.
Valete, Respectfully
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: The Roman Virtues |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 13:23:22 US/Central |
|
Salvete.
> It is not necessary to insult to make a point. In my view an insult to make
> a point is an strong indication of the inability of the insult-giver to
> express himself or herself adequately within the Roman Virtues which we
> all presumably are striving to emulate.
Iaac Asimov said it quite well. "Violence is the last refuge of the
incompetent."
And, to remain on topic:
Personally, I probably fail at clementia the most. When annoyed, I tend to
snap at those around me far more than I ought.
Publically, I'd say that we need to pay special attention to patientia and
spes. We've had periodic crises here, and each one has led to citizens
deciding that they just couldn't take it any more. Still, Nova Roma has grown
over time and promises to be something both enduring and worthwhile. Hope for
the future and the stamina necessary to stay the course will bring that promise
to fruition.
Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re:Latin Js and Ys |
| From: |
"Doug Barr" <dhkbarr@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 01:58:10 -0700 |
|
Salve Q. Fabii et omnes
> Like most other things we do in NR we have seemed to accept a convention.
> This is using J for the old Latin I. However there seemed to by a Y in
use
> in Latin inscriptions dated to the 4th Cent CE in both France and Spain.
I'm
> wondering if this some sort of bastardization of the language with Gaelic.
> This would explain the Y in Gryllus' nomen. Gaelic speakers, any
comments?
By "Gaelic" I'm assuming you mean "Galician" or "Gaulish"?There weren't any
Gaels anywhere in France or Spain. Irish Gaelic borrowed its alphabet from
Latin very early -- 'j' and 'y' and 'v' don't exist in it or in the Scottish
alphabet except for very recent borrowings (Manx has a truly bizarre
orthography combining Gaelic and English spellings).
I believe 'y' in Latin is generally a transcription of Greek ypsilon,
originally pronounced 'ü' (u-umlaut).
Valete
C. Albius Gadelicus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Your Roman Name--The Owner's Manual |
| From: |
"Doug Barr" <dhkbarr@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 12:52:08 -0700 |
|
Salvete Fimbria et omnes
> You've got three: Given name (Praenomen) Marcus; family name (Nomen)
> Minucius; and street-name/nickname/use-name (Cognomen) Audens. It's
> important to realize that a Roman's family name...the one we would
> think of as a surname...is the one in the middle, not the one at the
> end like in modern practice. So Lucius Cornelius Tiddlypus and Titus
> Cornelius Anonymus are related (same gens name), but Marcus Aurelius
> Tiddlypus is not kinfolk to either of 'em (even though his cognomen's
> the same as Lucius').
OK, now I am completely and utterly confused, and wondering if the Nova
Roman usage regarding names is different from the Classical.
On the Nova Roma website the page
http://www.novaroma.org/via_romana/names.html says the following, which
agrees with what Fimbria says above:
"The Cognomen - The cognomen is the nickname or personal name; that name
which distingues an individual from all those relatives who might happen to
share his or her praenomen and nomen. Often the cognomen was chosen based on
some physical or personality trait. Sometimes the cognomen was added later
on as a recognition of some special achievement or event in a personal
history; Africanus for someone who achieved a military victory in Africa,
for example. It is possible to have more than one cognomen (although it was
extremely unusual to have more than three)."
However, the website at http://www.columbia.edu/~rcc20/romans/nomina.html
says that the cognomen is a family name -- the nomen indicates the *gens*,
which functions like a clan and includes many different family names.
A quote from the website:
"Their last name was, as it is with us, their family name (called the
cognomen). Sometimes when someone's name was written or spoken the last name
would be given first, and their middle name second. Very often the family
name derives from some notable feature of a renowned family ancestor. For
example, the cognomen "Scaevola" means "Lefty" (from scaevus, "left"), the
name taken from a legendary ancestor who volunteered to burn his own right
hand off just to scare invaders into lifting a siege on Rome (after all, who
wants to fight a race of people who are *that* patriotic?)."
This usage -- cognomen as family name, not personal nickname -- agrees with
both of the books from which I'm learning Latin.
My grammar "Latin Grammar," by James Morwood, Oxford University Press, says
this on page 149:
"Distinguished Romans had at least three names: the *praenomen*, the
individual name; the *nomen*, the name of the *gens* (the clan); and the
*cognomen*, the name of the family within the *gens*. Thus Gaius Iulius
Caesar is *Gaius* of the gens *Iulia* and the *Caesar* family.
All Roman citizens had a praenomen and the name of their gens."
[I assume that means all *male* citizens -- females are known not always to
have had praenomina.]
My dictionary, the New College Latin and English Dictionary, John C.
Traupman Ph.D., Bantam Press, gives the following definitions (I'm quoting
only the relevant parts; some of the definitions are quite long):
"NOM-EN -INIS: n. name; clan (or middle) name (e.g. Iulius, as distinct from
the praenomen, or first name, e.g. Gaius, and the cognomen, or family name,
e.g. Caesar) ..."
"PRAENOM-EN -INIS: n. first name."
"COGNOM-EN -INIS: n. surname, family name (e.g. Caesar; a second cognomen,
called agnomen by later grammarians, was given as an honourary name to a
person for some achievement, e.g. Africanus) ..."
> Of course, Nova Roma is growing its own habits of name use, and we call
> each other by our cognomina (the third name or nickname) most of the
> time.
If the Nova Roman usage is different from the Classical, I'm fine with
that -- but I rather wish the difference would be noted and acknowledged. It
might be as simple as: "originally the cognomen was a nickname but was then
used to identify a particular person's descendents and so became a family
name; Nova Roma is using the earlier usage."
The reason I'm questioning this, by the way -- aside from my own personal
confusion -- is that I have recently been approached by someone wanting to
join my gens, and I'm wanting to make sure that their name is as
properly-constructed "a la romaine" as possible. My idea, you see, is that
each *household* within gens Albia will have its own cognomen -- someone
joining my household will be called "(praenomen) Albius/Albia
Gadelicus/Gadelica," and so on. Since this person doesn't live with me, I'm
needing to make sure that their new cognomen will be a good one -- and if
other members of the household join, that the cognomen will be suitable for
all.
Comments? Clarifications? Sources?
Valete
C. Albius Gadelicus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Your Roman Name--The Owner's Manual |
| From: |
Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 16:56:32 -0400 |
|
Salvete!
My understanding is that NR proceeded initially on the basis of an image of
the relatively early Republic. At this period
cognomina like Scaevola were still nicknames. By the later Republic the
gentes had splintered so far that most people had an inherited cognomen,
distinguishing their stirps (branch) of the larger gens. Agnomina then come
to play the role earlier played by cognomina. But not everyone had an
inherited cognomen...
Valete,
M. Mucius Scaevola (inherited cognomen) Magister (agnomen, meaning "Chalky"
as in a schoolteacher)
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Your Roman Name--The Owner's Manual |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 22:17:20 +0100 |
|
Salve Cai Albi Gadelice
Vah! I thought I understood the whole Roman nomenclature thing until I read
your post ):-(
- now I'm just as confused as you are. Just to add to the whole mess, here's
what Cassell's Latin Dictionary has to say:
"PRAENOMEN: The name which stood before the gentile name, and distinguished
the individual, the praenomen (e.g. Caius in C. J Caesar (sic); Marcus in M.
T. Cicero)."
"NOMEN: 1.A.2, esp. the gentile name of a Roman,, as e.g. Cornelius in P.
Cornelius Scipio,, though sometimes used for the praenomen (Publius) or the
cognomen (Scipio)..."
"COGNOMEN: A. A surname, family name, the name following the name of the
gens (e.g., Cicero)..."
"AGNOMEN (ad-nomen): Surname, name given to a man (sic) for some service,
e.g. Africanus, Asiaticus."
(Note these are selective quotes only supporting my point of view and
cynically suppressing the whole truth. Before Festus exposes me to the world
again, the full text can be read in:
MARCHANT, J. R. V., & CHARLES, J. F. (Rev.): Cassell & Co., London 1935
(20th. Edn.). ).
I think some confusion arises with our modern habit of confusing 'surname'
(i.e., a suffix name) with 'family name', since these days the two are
usually identical. Doubtless further confusion arises from a tendency to
assume that Roman usage itself did not vary over time or place.
Bene vale,
N. Moravius Vado.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Vado's quotes (sort of) |
| From: |
Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 24 May 2000 18:14:20 -0400 |
|
Salvete!
In response to Festus' post asking for authorities on the EU law stuff -
see my earlier response which gives relevant web addresses & print
authorities. As to relevance, it depends what you think about the idea of
human rights!
Valete,
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
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