Subject:	[novaroma] Our Missing Tribune of the Plebs
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 26 May 2000 17:48:37 -0700

Has been found. I spoke with him on the phone this evening and he just
got his computer set up. He stated that he will retain the Tribune of
the Plebs position but he will still relinquish the webmaster position
for lack of time. He stated he will e-mail the Senate tomorrow verifing
our phone conversation. I hope that helps settle everyone's minds
regarding that.

Vale

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor


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Subject:	[novaroma] Great Lakes Provincial cives and to any other interested in community
From:	dean6886@--------
Date:	Fri, 26 May 2000 21:47:08 -0500 (CDT)

Salve,


So far I have received 5 positive responses regarding some
type of gathering to be held probably right here in Northeastern
Wisconsin unless someone comes up with a better idea that more cives
could go to with minimal expenses (a particular place that offers small
cabin rentals along with camping and nearby motels, etc.).

I will be getting contact information eventually from our Censor
Sulla of all listed cives who reside here in the Great Lakes provincia
and find out exactly how many are with us here and exactly where they
are within the province.

I hope to get something together as best as possible for August or
September and actually meet and have some fun with others within Nova
Roma and perhaps think and talk about constructive things that can be
done within this area. Tentatively, I was thinking about either the
weekend of Aug 26th and 27th or Sept. 23rd and 24th.

Anyone else from any provincia have an interest in being a part of a
small gathering that hasn't responded before?

Gaius Drusus Domitianus
Propraetor of the Great Lakes Provincia






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Subject:	[novaroma] The Scroll: A Tale of Ancient Rome
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 02:18:13 EDT

THE SCROLL: A Tale of Ancient Rome, by Gaius Lupinius Festus, and
featuring Nova Roma citizens as characters.

The cool breeze augmented the chill of the night sky, causing the torch
lamps to flicker and nearly extinguish, and the waiting servant to draw his
cloak tightly about himself. But Pontiff Antonius Gryllus Graecus did not
notice the chill, nor did he hear the servant beckon him to mind his health
and to retreat into the warmth of the house. His attention was focused upon
the sky, scanning, waiting, searching for a sign from the heavens. The
others were waiting inside, waiting for word from him, or from the augurs.
But there was nothing to report to the small company of senators who were
meeting inside the house of Marcus Cassius Julianus, senator of Rome.

"I knew a Cicero once", said Flavius Vedius Germanicus, "who, beginning
alone, and deemed a fool by nearly everyone, almost singlehandledly exposed
the plot of Catiline, and ended being hailed as the Father of his Country. I
know that man lives still." Cicero shifted his feet uneasily under the table
where they were sitting. He shook his head. "No, Flavius Vedius! This is
not a situation in which I can help. The decision is yours, and you must make
it. My oratory..."
"Your oratory can justify whatever decision is made here tonight!",
Germanicus said, cutting the old man off in mid-sentence. "Cicero, there is
not much time. With you among us, we can be sure that our decision will be
sensible, and fully justifiable. Won't you join us?" Cicero looked around
the room, at the face of each man gathered. Of those gathered in this house,
all save Graecus, on the roof, and Marcus Cassius Julianius, were present.
The remaining two men who were sent for had not yet arrived. Cicero closed
his eyes, and after a moments hesitation, shook his head. "No, Germanicus.
I cannot help you decide this." The old man rose to leave, and walked
towards the doorway. Opening the door, he stopped, and turned to them. "But
I will not oppose you, whatever you decide. Nor will I reveal to anyone what
we have discussed tonight. Goodnight gentlemen".

"Well", said Lucius Cornelius Sulla when Cicero had gone,"there goes our best
hope for unity in this enterprise. I suggest that we disperse ourselves, to
retire to our own homes." This comment produced a slight murmering among
those gathered, but was opposed by Gaius Marius Merullus. "No! Cassius has
not yet returned, and the consuls have not yet arrived. And Graecus has not
yet brought us word". "I agree with Merullus", voiced Lucius Equitius
Cincinnatus, "We cannot adjourn until all voices have been heard!" At this,
Decius Junius Palladius rose from his seat. "I agree with our friends
Merullus and Cincinnatus. But gentlemen, we must be unanimous. There can be
no dissent among us in this action. Sulla? What say you?" Sulla, clearly
outnumbered, gave in. "Very well then. But in this you are absolutely
correct Palladius. If we are not unanimous, the whole thing is off. Agreed?"
There was a murmer of agreement with nodding of heads.

The whole assembly rose as Graecus returned to the room. "Graecus! What
news from the priests and augurs?", Germanicus asked, as Merullus poured the
cold Pontiff a cup of wine. Graecus shook his head. "Nothing gentlemen! My
servent has brought word from the other priests and augurs, and there are no
portents, either in the heavens, nor in the entrails." "Nothing?", gasped
Palladius, "But how can that be? Are the Gods with us or against us?"
"Perhaps they are indifferent", Sulla opined. From the doorway, a confident
voice sounded. "I believe, gentlemen, that this means the Gods will support
us, whatever action we take!" "Cassius!" exclaimed Graecus in surprise.
"We did not hear you come in!" Marcus Cassius Julianus smiled and walked
forward, and began shaking hands with all the men assembled. Beside him
walked his wife, the beautiful and elegant Patricia Cassia. She spoke to her
husband, "My love, do not keep your guests in suspense. Tell them!" "Of
course my wife, I was coming to that",Cassius said with an air of excitement.
"Gentlemen, I am pleased to inform you that I believe I have suceeded in
winning the Consuls to our party." "Both Consuls?" Sulla asked with a
measure of surprise. Cassius nodded with a smile. "Yes, Sulla. BOTH
Consuls. But my friends, we must agree NOW, before they arrive. If they do
not see us strong in our resolve, they may have second thoughts. The time
for talk has ended. We must act now. Be it coldly rational, or foolhardy as
it will. But we MUST ACT". Cassius produced a scroll from within his
senatorial toga. "This scroll has not yet been written on. I have pen and
ink to do so now, and I have the required funds to ensure our success. How
do you decide? Do we go on, or not?" One by one, each man present gave
voice to his vote. The vote was unanimous: yes. Cassius sat down at the
table and began writing on the scroll. When he was finished, he looked up
and handed the pen to Graecus. "Gentlemen, each one of you must affix his
name to this document. None must hold back. We do this together, or not at
all." Graecus nodded, and bent over the document, and signed. With this,
each man came forward and signed his own name on the scroll. "It is done",
Sulla whispered, with some relief.

A servant entered, and announced, "The Consuls Quintus Fabius Maximus, and
Marcus Minucius Audens!" Everyone in the room was standing facing the
Consuls respecfully. "Consuls!", greeted Cassius, "you are welcome here!"
"Is it done?" Quintus Fabius Maximus asked, handing his cloak to the servant.
Cassius held up the scroll. "It is sirs, and now your signatures, added to
ours, will ensure that there will be no mistaking our aim and intent". "Very
well then", Marcus Minucius Audens said, taking the pen and the scroll, and
signing. "Does the young Octavian Caesar know?" Maximus scowled. "Octavian
is a boy, barely off his mothers milk! Think nothing of him!" Cassius spoke
assuringly. "Octavian does not know, and neither does Antony". Audens
appeared relieved. "Good. For I fear Antony far more than the boy Octavian".

Both Consuls had signed the scroll, which was then rolled and sealed
with Auden's senatorial seal. "Very well then", he said. "Now who is the
agent to do the deed?"
Cassius turned to his wife. "Patricia, where is..." "In the study",
Patricia Cassia answered coldly. "Very good. Would you please send him in?"
Cassius asked. Patricia closed her eyes and shook her head. "Have a servant
fetch him, my husband. I cannot stand to be near him. He....". "She
hesitated. "I fear him". The servant was sent, and the Stranger was
ushered into the room. His long dark cloak came nearly to the floor, and his
face was hidden by his hood. He said nothing, but stood there, patient and
expressionless. Patricia turned her back to the Stranger. Merullus
whispered to Cassius, "Who is this?" Cassius nodded to the stranger, who
then slowly pulled back his hood, revealing the face of Acadianus Draco.
"Draco!", gasped Merullus.
"Oh shit" groaned Sulla, covering his face with his hand.
"By the body of...good Gods Cassius", Palladius exclaimed, "what have you
done? You have stained us!"
Cassius was irritated and defensive. "Gentlemen! The action we are taking
requires speed. Draco knows the backalleys, the sewers, every dark hiding
place in Rome!"
"As all rats and vermin do!", Patricia sneered.
Draco smiled. "As always, good lady, your warmth is touching".
Audens pulled Cassius aside, "Cassius, are you sure of this man? This is the
man who carried Catiline's messages to his co-conspirators, and then this
same man sold Catiline out when he turned over copies of the messages to
Cicero! And some say that it was he who, while in the employ of Pompey,
helped to murder Pompey when paid by the Egyptian scum of Pothinus! In the
name of all the Gods, why him???" Draco snorted in disgust. "Since there is
obviously nothing you require of me....", he said, turning to leave.
"Draco! Wait!", called Cassius, who pulled out a money bag from his toga.
Draco stopped and turned around toward Cassius. Cassius handed him the small
bag which clinked with coin. "Will you do this job? And can we trust you to
carry it out in the short time we have?" Draco smiled again. "Certainly
Cassius! But...considering the insult I was put through just now, the price
has gone up". Cassius closed his eyes and sighed. Going over to an ivory
box on a side table, he opened the lid and drew out another small bag of
coin. He offered the bag to Draco, who pushed it away. "I have no need of
more money Cassius". "The what is it you demand?" Cassius asked impatiently.
For the third time, Draco smiled. "A share of the spoils of this little
plot of yours". Cassius looked back at the others, who, with reluctance,
nodded in assent. "Very well", Cassius said, "you shall have it". Draco
turned to go, but was stopped by Quintus Fabius. "Draco", he said with
restrained loathing, "I reluctantly agree to trust you, out of respect for my
friend Cassius". He bent down and whispered in Draco's ear. "But mark me
well, my friend. If you betray us, or fail to carry out this mission, I
swear to you, you will feel my dagger". Draco stared into Maximus eyes,
coldly, unnerved. Then he grinned, "Of course, noble Consul!" Then, with
the scroll and money bag hidden within his cloak, he disappeared into the
night.

An impatient Sulla looked at the candle on the table, which showed that an
hour had elapsed. "Well", he demanded, "where is he?" At that moment, the
servant came running into the room. "Sir", he said to Cassius, "he has
returned!" Everyone rose anxiously and in a moment, Draco entered the room,
carrying a large box. Cassius ran over to Draco. "Is it done?", he asked.
"It is done", Draco replied, setting the box on the table. Everyone gathered
around the table, and Draco opened the lid of the box...

'
'
'
'
'
'


"Here is everything, exactly as you ordered!", Draco said, with obvious pride
in his work.
"Two large pizzas, one with pepperoni and mushrooms, one plain!" Helping
himself to a large slice, he said, "My share of the spoils!" "And well have
you earned it!" Cassius said, thumping him on the back. Audens took a knife
and began cutting slices for everyone. "Lat's EAT!" he exclaimed, as
Patricia Cassia poured the wine.

THE END


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Scroll: A Tale of Ancient Rome
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 03:42:12 EDT

Salve!
I thought Q. Fabius was little restrained, knowing the man as I do, but other
then that, let's eat!
Valete!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Introduction to the Religio Romana
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 03:50:28 EDT

Salve L. Equitius
It would be difficult for me in this format to fully develop my argument
on this matter. Nor would I find it convenient to use this messageboard to
pick apart the subject website in detail. So I will be brief and make
general observations once more, and do apologize before hand.
In writing history there are several common fallacies that one might
commit. Even in a cursory scanning of this sight I came upon a few.
Projecting backward in time, not collaborating sources, draw conclusions
contrary to the evidence presented, etc. When the reader runs into such a
piece perhaps the best approach is to check the author's sources for one
self. In effect the reader would then do his own research and rewrite the
entire paper for himself. I am not about to do that here, but I would
recommend that anyone who visits the site should do it for themselves.
The strength of the site is that the sources are clearly stated and
commentary is linked in order to explain some of the statements made in the
body of the work. I might take exception with some of the commentary made,
and the line of reasoning he makes, but I can justly say that in organizing
the site it was well done.
One major problem with the entire subject of the religio romana is the
time span involved. Beliefs, practices, rites, were all to change over the
course of time. It was more than just an influx of foreign cults as first
the Republic and later the empire expanded. I would argue that internal
social changes more sharply drove fundamental changes to occur in the religio
romana than did any foreign influence at any period in Rome's history. And
in saying that we should recognize that change in religious institutions lag
far behind social changes. One area where I find the most grievous fault is
that various aspects of the religio romano, and the various cults that became
attached to it, were lumped together without delineating historical changes
as it evolved.
Admittedly the focal point of my interest lies with the beginning of
Rome. I am more interested in the Italian Neolithic and Bronze Age than I am
in Imperial Rome. I find the founding of Rome more as the end point of my
inquiries rather than as its beginning. That certainly colours my opinion of
the website. I am therefor, also, more interested in what the author had to
say on the fundamental aspects and core beliefs than on the cultus practice.
If I am to revisit this subject on specifics it will be in that area. The
comments on the website about human sacrifice should be revisited, and his
definition of the indigetes I would take exception to, as two examples. I
would invite you to more directly correspond with me on such matters, rather
than to use the messageboard.
There is another matter of a fundamental concern I have here that
definitely coloured my comments, but which has specifically nothing to do
with the website itself. I am new to NR, not yet a citizen, and it is not
appropriate that I voice all of those concerns at this time. Nova Roma, like
Rome itself, is a living body politic that will evolve with the influx of new
members. I have committed myself to become a new member and make my own
little impact on NR as a citizen. I feel that all questions in the way we
approach the religio romana, whether pagan or non-pagan, defines what Nova
Roma is about. What intrigued me most about NR, that made me decide to apply
for citizenship, is the repeated statements on a commitment to research for
authenticity in the area of the religio romana. Simply put, I did not find
that here in the recommendation to visit this particular site.

Valete Quirites
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A question of devices
From:	Marius Fimbria <legion6@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net

> Would a heraldic device be completely anachronistic (I think that is
> the word) for a Roman gens to have (such as a family crest) if not,
> are there any examples of such a device that I may look at?
>
> Gracia,
> D. Aucelius Sebastianus

Salve!

As one who has had the rare pleasure of consulting with the SCA's Duke
Frederick of Holland (Himself!) on whether and how a Legionary
shield-device might be gotten to conform to SCAdian heraldry practices,
I may be able to help here!

Strictly-speaking, the Romans had no 'heraldry' in the sense of the
European system of blazon that grew up in the early Middle Ages.
Relative to that system, any Roman devices would definitely be
considered 'pre-armorial'.

However, in the broader sense of having ways to tell one Roman rank,
station, or family from another, of course Romans have things that
fulfill the functions of 'heraldry' proper. The purple border on a
Magistrate's toga is one mark of distinction; the red shoes with
lunette that only the Senators may wear is another. So is a
Paterfamilias' signet-ring, or the transverse crest of a Legionary
Centurion. Even the Gods each have Their attributes, like the Eagle
and Lightning-bolt of Iupiter. Certain priests wear a special toga;
others wear a cap with an apex; an augur carries a lituus staff. Every
Legion and auxiliary Cohort has its own shield-pattern--although debate
rages as to which patterns belong to which units (a project I've been
working on for long enough to have exhausted my Stateside resources;
I'll have to hit the Bodleian if I expect to get any further with it!).

(Ahh, so *nice* to be able to write of these things in the present
tense!!!)

An interesting project, I think, would be to try to research, pin down,
and recreate the 'crests' of particular gentes (often symbols like an
animal or a tool of the family trade), then craft signet-rings and pass
them out to the appropriate Patres/Matresfamilias (I'm hung on what the
plural of ?terfamilias' might be, so I'm improvising). We had a
Citizen named Pythia once upon a time who was a jeweller; she made some
wonderful pieces based on designs of Roman artefacts; however, she left
us last summer, so we no longer have that resource. A pity, that.

As for examples of such devices...if you find any, let me know!

Hope this helps,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<legion6@--------> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Your Roman Name--The Owner's Manual
From:	Marius Fimbria <legion6@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net

Salvete omnes!

>> You've got three: Given name (Praenomen) Marcus; family name
>> (Nomen) Minucius; and street-name/nickname/use-name (Cognomen)
>> Audens. It's important to realize that a Roman's family name...the
>> one we would think of as a surname...is the one in the middle, not
>> the one at the end like in modern practice.
>
> OK, now I am completely and utterly confused...

Oh, dear; that was hardly the intent...

I believe the bridge between the two practices cited--that of the
Cognomen as nickname and the Cognomen as branch-of-family name--is to
be found in the heritability of Roman names. The original Lucius
Cornelius Tiddlypus might have been called that because nobody thought
he would amount to much; but his firstborn son would be named after
Father, so he'd be L Cornelius Tiddlypus too...maybe referred to as
'Iunior' or 'Minor' to distinguish him from Pater, unless and until he
achieved fame and a second cognomen (the agnomen) in his own right.
'Course, he'd still be L C Tiddlypus; and his son and *his* son and so
on after him, until you could really say there was a Cornelius
Tiddlypus 'stirps' (bloodline); but you'd have L C Tiddlypus Asiaticus,
L C Tiddlypus Bellator, L C Tiddlypus Pius, and so on.

Mind you, this is a highly-compressed account of a process that would
actually have taken many decades and more than a few generations; but
by the time your 'nickname' had become your great-grandkid's
'stirps-name', he'd have acquired a 'nickname' of his own and simply
tacked it on at the end of the parade!

>Comments? Clarifications? Sources?

Does this help...?

>Valete
>C. Albius Gadelicus

In amicitia,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria / Legio VI Victrix |>[SPQR]<|
<legion6@--------> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
'Just a-hangin' around the Universe, | | / )\ \| /
bein' a Roman...it's hard work, but _|_| / _/_| /`(
*somebody's* gotta do it!!' /./..=' /./..'

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: "Seezer"
From:	Marius Fimbria <legion6@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net

Salvete omnes!

> By now, my meatspace friends have learned that if they say "Seezer"
> while I'm around, the "Kaiser" lecture will inevitably follow.

Heh heh.... My personal pet peeve is the use of the word 'legionnaire'
to refer to a Roman soldier. Even some scholars do it; makes me want
to go to their houses and, umm, reenact the Latin-lesson-at-swordpoint
from Monty Python's "Life of Brian"... Well, after the
'Legionnaire/Legionary Lecture' you may see instructors and students
limping or nursing a sore bum. When prompted to explain the nature of
their disability, these four words are sufficient to elicit the
caregiving response in the listener: "I Have Been Briefed!!" >({|;-P


-- Lucius Marius Fimbria (who *has* a sense of humor, really he does!)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 03:33:37 PDT

PROFANITY WARNING: READING THIS MAY IRRITATE THE OVER-SERIOUS.

Salutem!

Sic Piscinus:

> Ops a god? And the consort of another god? Presently NR is
>struggling
>with another issue and you wish to bring us into the question of state
>recognized same sex marriages?

There's no need, mi amice: the state of Nova Roma does not forbid same-sex
marriages :-)

Nor is there any legislation telling the gods what sexual inclination or
gender they ought to have.

This is just as well. Apollo is bisexual. So is Iuppiter (and he gave birth
to two other gods - Dionysius and Minerva). Minerva doesn't have sexual
relations at all, and wears armour. Diana isn't into men, either. And what
gender is Pales? Castor and Pollux are each other's consort. Hercules lived
as Queen Omphale's concubine and wore a dress.
Iuno is a model for any virtuous univira (one-man woman), but Venus'
clothing always seems to be coming undone.

As above, so below. Give me a pantheon that celebrates diversity every
time:-).

>The goddess Ops I believe had Saturno as Her consort, while Consus was
>later identified with Neptunus.

Erm... well, Ops IS generally regarded as the consort of Saturnus, er,
yes... not of Consus. My confusion came from their (joint) (harvest)
festival on 21 August, and of Consus' other festival being on 15 December,
only 2 days before Saturnalia begins. But you'll admit, surely, that Consus
would make Ops a suitable partner as god of food stores? In my further
defence I'll also say that Classical mythology is not, and was not, regarded
as having one single, 'correct' or 'original' version (as the
Judaeo-Christian theologians have sought to establish with their Biblical
narratives). Variant versions co-existed at all times throughout the
Classical period. Consider how Homer and Hesiod disagree on whose consort
Aphrodite is - Hephaistos or Ares... and the innovative re-working of myth
is a major feature of Classical literature, isn't it?

>And she would only be mother to Ceres if one
>accepted the Greek mythos. The Italic mythos to which Ops more properly
>belongs is quite different.

Hmmm. This is what Ausonius says (Gryphus Ternarii Numeri):

"Tris Ope progeniti fratres, tris ordine partae:
Vesta, Ceres et Iuno, secus muliebre, sorores..."

("Three the brethren born of Ops,
Sisters three she bore in turn:
Vesta, Ceres, Iuno, a female company...")

>She is not a goddess of wealth in the sense of
>money, or even of the earth's produce of metal as a basis of pecuniary
>wealth. She is more a goddess of abundanza. That could mean the abundance
>of crops and animals produced on cultivated lands, but She is an older
>goddess, and I would judge her abundance to be more basic than that.

Pre-metalworking, pre-agricultural, early neolithic. I could go along with
that.

And we are, I rejoice to see, mi Piscine, also agreed in our perception of
what constitutes our national wealth:

>the development of
>each of its citizens to full potential

Hoc est verbum sapientibus!

Bene valete,

Vado.
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Scroll: A Tale of Ancient Rome
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 06:43:48 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Festus;

Very Good!!! Very Good!!! Perhaps a trifle hard on my friend Draco,
but everyone must wear the "dark cloak" at sometime in his life
(Grinnnnn!!!). There is only one small item which I believe I must
comment on--actually I am most strongly committted to Bacon and double
cheese with Olives!!!!!

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Scroll: A Tale of Ancient Rome
From:	JustiniaCassia@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 08:57:12 EDT

Salve, Gaius Lupinius Festus,

There is only one flaw I find with your excellent story. It's the part where
Patricia Cassia says of the Stranger, "I fear him."

I have known Patricia Cassia for many years now, and have seen her exhibit a
wide range of emotions: happiness, mirth, glee, sadness, grief, regret,
disgust, disdain, thankfulness, joy, annoyance, and more.

But never, ever, in all my life, have I seen Patricia Cassia FEAR anything!

Otherwise, I thoroughly enjoyed your story. Sprinkle a little garum on my
pizza slice, please. ; - )

Iustinia Cassia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A question of devices
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 09:02:30 EDT

Salve Marius
Interesting. If you travel through geneology there is a very good piece
on Italian heraldry I believe at ITGEN. Italian heraldic devices appear
earlier than in the rest of Europe, and have some features quite unique. The
use of animals as devices differs from other parts of Europe, and there are
some abstract symbols as well. What you have mentioned as symbolae gentorum
seems very similar. Most early Italian noble families arise from the
equites, something to keep in mind.
Vale, Piscine

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 872/ fashion statement
From:	asseri@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 09:30:53 EDT

In a message dated 5/27/00 2:04:33 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
novaroma@-------- writes:

<< BTW, I was awfully tempted to start a "Most Embarassing Outfit Lucilla
Wore"
contest, but that corsetted thing she was in at the end was so horrific that
it'd obviously be the winner.
>>
Oh how true! the worst but at least I don't remember the waist being swathed
in ribbons.
Before I forget I found a something out. The Walmart chain makes available to
it buyers of their fabric departments inexpensive cotton and cotton/blend
gauze's. They are often a dollar a yard. they are common madras plaids and
solids. Since a plaid are very easy to weave they would be a commonly found
fabric and (some place I have that documented) and a trade good from far off
lands.
So the nest time your in a Walmart ask about them if you don't see them and
ask to speak to the buyer for the department!

Salve
P. Anncinna Olivia

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Subject:	[novaroma] Cleopatra
From:	"Michael" <maf@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 00:23:19 +1000

Salve,

After some of the talk on the list about inaccuracies in the movie "Gladiator", I happened to watch the video of the miniseries "Cleopatra" tonite (the one with Timothy Dalton and Billy Zane), and decided that compared to that effort, Gladiator's researchers did a pretty good job.

A list of some of the more obvious howlers in Cleopatra:

Roman cavalry using stirrups

Julius Caesar riding into battle in a chariot (perhaps his famous warhorse "Toes" was indisposed?)

Roman armies using chariots in battle

Roman soldiers using spears in the manner of a Greek phalanx (although I must admit they did start using pila later in the flick).

I suppose one can't expect too much from a cheesy epic like this, but it does make Gladiator seem a lot more realistic.

Vale

Marcus Afranius Regulus





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A question of devices
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 15:17:07 +0100

Salvete Quiriti

Symbolae gentorum - family devices... yes, it's an interesting topic, and as
Fimbria and Piscinus suggest, an excellent one for research for someone who
has the spare time to do NR this service.

In the meantime, my dupondius' worth:

Citizen-armies of the Greek poleis are often shown (mostly on ceramic
decoration) with individual devices on their shields (the single exception
being the Spartans, who used a uniform lambda -chevron ('L', for Lakedaimon
= Sparta). I would guess that the pre-Marian armies of Rome also employed
favourite, persional devices in the Greek way.

There is a vestigial clue to the use of a quasi-heraldry (I think) in the
Capricornus device of the Legio II Augusta (the capricorn being a favourite
device of Augustus, tho' whether a family thing of his or not, I don't
know). Then, of course, there's the legendary King Artur's Pendragon, which
some say derives from the late Roman draconiform cavalry standard.

A caveat about Piscinus' comments about Italian aristiocratic families and
their possibly Roman-derived heraldry: noble families all over medieval
Europe were fond of legitimising their position through suppostitious
pedigrees, reflected in turn on their armorial achievements. Medieval
heralds awarded posthumous coats of arms to heroes of the ancient world
because they felt they ought to have had them. For example, I heard an
apocryphal story from a curator at the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford (we were
talking about the heroes of the Iliad) a few years ago that the Scottish
Bowes-Lyon family (of whom the present British Queen Mother is a member)
claims to derive its lion device from an early attribution to Hector.

As for Nova Roma, Gens Moravia has its own device: Minerva's little owl
(specifically, the one as depicted on the Athenian tetradrachmai of the 5th
century BCE). She has flown on a flag over our tent at Pagan Federation
festivals since 1997. Not what you'd call a long or august pedigree, but
we're proud of it :-).

Bene vale,

Vado.





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 11:15:36 EDT

Salve Vado
Surely your warning was not meant for me!? I am still feeling my way
about in here and already wading into some questions on the religio romana. I
was glad to learn from you that NR does recognize same-sex marriages. I am
authorized by the Great State of Ohio, land of burning rivers and corn pone,
to perform marriages. If you can get a license from those inbreds down in
southern Ohio I'll perform a ceremony for your cat to marry Marius' dogs.
While stumbling about on this site I have become confused more than a few
times. Are we in Republican times, or do we emulate the Empire, or throw it
all to the wind and evolve into a totally new form of Rome. I lean towards
the latter, but feel you need to have a solid base to begin to evolve from.
And, too, when getting to specifics I lean towards the earliest precedent to
move from.
Let us move through some random thoughts, in no particular order:
1.) Minerva as a virgin goddess. That might be true in Greek mythology,
and was adopted into Roman myth at a later period. But in Italian myth,
Etruscan and Oscan, (I'm scrambling to find reference to it in Rome), Minrva
has Hercules as a consort and she gives birth to Maris (not the same Maris
generally identified with Mars.) Here too, Italian myths about Hercules only
later adopt Greek stories. The variance between Greek and Italian, some feel
is due to Punic influence in Early Italy. Perhaps but I think there is an
even earlier model for the Italian Hercules: the giant called Celscan by the
Etruscans. Also the referral to Hercules as Garanos as the slayer of Cacus
points to a much earlier, indiginous mythos.
2.) Yes, the gods and goddesses were a bit ambivelent about their sexual
identity. But that too is a later development that grows alongside
developments in Neoplatonism, especially to their psychology. To me that is
only a different subject, one of particular interest to me and that I would
enjoy taking up at another time. To me the religio romana refers to what was
specificly roman without Greek influence. Blame it on my nonna, who
absolutely refused to put oregano in her marana because she considered it
Greek. Roman deities, especially in the earliest periods, didn't have any
sexual identity. They were more as forces of nature. The Hygini Mythographi
that identifies a genealogiae comes from, I believe, around 207 ce, but based
on earlier ideas. There became a notion that as gods and goddess existed
sexually distinct, they must have liasons and procreate (an Egyptian
concept?) There were so many deities running about that this seemed like a
way to relate them all together. As for Saturno's progeny: ex Saturno et Ope
Vesta Ceres, Iuno Iuppiter Pluto Neptunus, or then again, ex Saturno et
Philra Chiron Dolops, read below.
3.) Yeah, the hair on the back of my neck goes up when you start playing
with my religious belief. Just an instinctive reaction. Part of my family
came from Ferentinium of the Hernicii, whose city walls, legend has, were
built by the sons of Saturno. That refers to a much earlier period. The
city walls of Ferentino date back to the early Bronze Age, if not the
Neolithic, but any way long before there was even a thought about a Rome.
(See Livy's references to the city). And the other part of my family came
from Teate Marruciniorum, (that same nonna refused to allow me into her house
and would set the dogs on me because she viewed me a halfbreed; aren't
granma's nice). That is part of the reason why I am interested in earlier,
Italic mythos, unadulterated by those Greeks. Both sides of my family
retained their pagan practises in their traditions. Essentially I was raised
pagan, initially by my bisnonna (for whom I have an unending fondness and who
was the mother-in-law of the nona mentioned above that I have a few other
feelings about).
The patron Goddess of Ferentino is Ferentina (Notice Her sex was changed
to appease the christists later). There were several Mother Goddesses
throughout Vitelia: Ferentina, Ops, Maia, Tellus, Tutilina, Libitania,
Larunda, Mafitei, Limentina, Feronia, Fatuai, Ceursa, Herentai, Iututna, and
Iurpa to name only a few. Some of these Goddesses evolved to become
patronesses of vary narrow areas of concern. Others were equated with one
another. At some later point I would like to take up the subject of Ceres
seperately - the distinction between Demeter whose temple was established in
490 bce on the Avertine and the Italic Goddess whose name she was given.
Admist all the confusion that was to arise in the expansion of Rome, the
Republic built the Temple to Bona Dea on the roads south from the Avertine
where many of the other goddesses had their temples. Bona Dea is a catch-all
Goddess, the Dea Dia who is also another Ops. This idea of a multiple
expression of the Goddess (as well as the ambivelence of the gods sexualness)
really comes out in the Orphic Hymns. Geneologies of the Dii may serve as a
who's who, but in practise, by whatever name you prefer, it amount to the
same deity which connects with one's female aspect of one's soul.
4.) On a personal level this last comment I think is the most important
aspect of any religion. It does not matter if you wish to identify part of
your soul with Krsna by chanting his name, or bring Jesus into your heart as
some express it, Plutarch said that the myths of the Gods were merely stages
in the life of our own individual souls. This is what the "innovative
re-working of myth" is all about. Before orthodoxy set in even the
christists understood this, or at least those who were later condemned as
gnostics. I would recognize that everyone's soul is composed of parts, or
that everyone has a number of different souls (the Greeks, after the
Egyptions, recognized seven souls, and Cicero struggled in comprehending this
in The Nature of the Gods because Latin had not yet developed to express the
concept). Every one is both male and female, and these different aspects of
indivdiuals tend to develop at different paces. One goal as a pagan is to
bring each part into harmony. That was a lesson Hercules had to be taught by
Omphale, that he did indeed have a female side and that it was just as
important for him to develop it if he intended to attain to immortality. (As
you can see, perhaps, this whole train of thought on psychology needs to be
developed seperately.)
Well, I have been rambling enough for the moment and there is still a
flood of thoughts pouring out. It was my intention from the start to
instigate some discussion and I hope I have achieved that. My apologies to
any I might have offended in my expression of thoughts. You have yet to
become familiar with me, as I am with you. Yes, Vado, I revel in diversity,
too, and only wish to celebrate it; and if that can be done with a sense of
humor, all the better.
Vale Vade
Valete quirites
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: A question of devices
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 11:48:46 EDT

Yes, Vado is most correct in his caveat. (Actually I had it mind,if I failed
to express it. But then I am not as particular about authenticity when it
comes to reconstructions involving playing with toy soldiers as I am in other
things. Any wargamers out there?)
Vado's mention of the Greek devices sparked another thought. The Italic
tribes used devices on their shields. I should think these represented
individual toute rather than individuals or a particular family. An Oscan
touta would be comprable to a gens, (broadly speaking now, Vado). Try
looking at website references to the Samnites. I recall one that depicted
Samnite warriors, but I don't know how accurate it would be. Then too one
could try sites concerning Italian rock paintings. Some of the best are in
Italian but then you're only looking for pictures. Many of the rock
paintings are from the Bronze Age and depict the same symbols later found
among the Italic tribes. Then too at some Italian sites the rock paintings
extend from the late Neolithic into the Renaissance period. There is nothing
directly related here to your chosen subject matter, but it will give you a
wider range of information to work from, and at least it's not Greek.
Vale
Piscine

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 12:33:34 EDT

Salve,

I think you missed the worst part of "Cleopatra" -- the ludicrousness of
casting a pouty 1990's teeny-bopper to play the part of a queen who for
decades influenced the decisions and destinies of great statesmen,
generals, and nations, through her personal charms and her keen,
aggressive statecraft. Rather like casting Woody Allen as Caesar.

The whole thing was a bad joke.

It probably wasn't motivated by contempt for just pagans, though, because
about the same time, they also aired a butchered, blundering version of
the the Jewish story of Noah and the great flood (yes, I know it was
based on earlier legends). Surely they had access to sources for that
one, yet they mixed up everything.

Clearly these productions reflect a contempt for their audiences, for
their culture, for other peoples' cultures, for history, for accuracy,
and for probably anything else except MONEY.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust.

On 5/27/00 9:23 AM Michael (maf@--------) wrote:

>Salve,
>
>After some of the talk on the list about inaccuracies in the movie
>"Gladiator", I happened to watch the video of the miniseries "Cleopatra"
>tonite (the one with Timothy Dalton and Billy Zane), and decided that
>compared to that effort, Gladiator's researchers did a pretty good job.
>
>A list of some of the more obvious howlers in Cleopatra:
>
>Roman cavalry using stirrups
>
>Julius Caesar riding into battle in a chariot (perhaps his famous warhorse
>"Toes" was indisposed?)
>
>Roman armies using chariots in battle
>
>Roman soldiers using spears in the manner of a Greek phalanx (although I
>must admit they did start using pila later in the flick).
>
>I suppose one can't expect too much from a cheesy epic like this, but it
>does make Gladiator seem a lot more realistic.
>
>Vale
>
>Marcus Afranius Regulus


nullae satisfactionis potiri non possum.

(I can't get no satisfaction.)


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra
From:	"susan brett" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 17:30:21 GMT

Salvete Omnes!

Yep, lots of flaws in this movie, but I found the cast members a bit more
"believable" than in the Cleopatra with Liz Taylor et.al. Rex Harrison
played the part of Julius Caesar in this one.

I thought Elizabeth Taylor's acting and costuming as Cleopatra was majorly
"overdone".

And...I guess my problem with Rex is that I had already seen him in "Dr.
Dolittle" prior to watching his portrayal of Caesar. As a result, I just
couldn't take him seriously!

In the more recent flick, I thought Timothy Dalton portrayed Caesar very
well, although it can be argued that he looks perhaps a few years too young
for historical accuracy.

My two cents!
Bene Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo


>From: LSergAust@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra
>Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 12:33:34 EDT
>
>Salve,
>
>I think you missed the worst part of "Cleopatra" -- the ludicrousness of
>casting a pouty 1990's teeny-bopper to play the part of a queen who for
>decades influenced the decisions and destinies of great statesmen,
>generals, and nations, through her personal charms and her keen,
>aggressive statecraft. Rather like casting Woody Allen as Caesar.
>
>The whole thing was a bad joke.
>
>It probably wasn't motivated by contempt for just pagans, though, because
>about the same time, they also aired a butchered, blundering version of
>the the Jewish story of Noah and the great flood (yes, I know it was
>based on earlier legends). Surely they had access to sources for that
>one, yet they mixed up everything.
>
>Clearly these productions reflect a contempt for their audiences, for
>their culture, for other peoples' cultures, for history, for accuracy,
>and for probably anything else except MONEY.
>
>Vale,
>
>L. Sergius Aust.
>
>On 5/27/00 9:23 AM Michael (maf@--------) wrote:
>
> >Salve,
> >
> >After some of the talk on the list about inaccuracies in the movie
> >"Gladiator", I happened to watch the video of the miniseries "Cleopatra"
> >tonite (the one with Timothy Dalton and Billy Zane), and decided that
> >compared to that effort, Gladiator's researchers did a pretty good job.
> >
> >A list of some of the more obvious howlers in Cleopatra:
> >
> >Roman cavalry using stirrups
> >
> >Julius Caesar riding into battle in a chariot (perhaps his famous
>warhorse
> >"Toes" was indisposed?)
> >
> >Roman armies using chariots in battle
> >
> >Roman soldiers using spears in the manner of a Greek phalanx (although I
> >must admit they did start using pila later in the flick).
> >
> >I suppose one can't expect too much from a cheesy epic like this, but it
> >does make Gladiator seem a lot more realistic.
> >
> >Vale
> >
> >Marcus Afranius Regulus
>
>
>nullae satisfactionis potiri non possum.
>
>(I can't get no satisfaction.)
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra
From:	"* Jen *" <mekare71@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 17:52:53 GMT

>A list of some of the more obvious howlers in Cleopatra:
>
>Roman cavalry using stirrups

I thought there was a reference to this in Gladiator too...when Maximus says
he tells his son to keep his heels down when he is riding? I thought that
stirrups were not introduced to Europe until to 4th - 5th century AD.
Unless there was another reason for his son to keep his heels down aside
from the foot sliding through the stirrup?

thanks
jen



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 14:01:00 EDT

Salve Gnaeus Hernicius

I want to thank you for your posts on the origins/background of the
Religio. My own interest in "religion" is in this area, and I become
somewhat irritated when people equate the Greek "Olympians" with the
Religio Romana (although I certainly recognize everyone's right to take
their own personal route with respect to religion). At the same time, my
factual knowledge of early Roman and pre-Roman religion is minimal, so I
am always grateful to find out more. I have saved your post for future
reference.

I generally avoid discussions of religion here as well as in the
day-to-day world (outside the computer) because I find it difficult to
discuss anything meaningful to me without provoking violent reactions
from other people. To each his own.....

I look forward to your further participation in Nova Roma. In response to
an earlier question you raised, I think Nova Roma began as a revival of
early Republican ideals and practices, but an influx of new citizens,
some of whom prefer the later periods (which I consider corrupted and
declining, as I duck behind my big republican scutum), has precipitated
an evolution into a heterogeous mixture of ideas and practices. It is
somewhat like my personal kit, which consists of pilum, lorica, and
gladius from three different centuries of history.

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus

On 5/27/00 10:15 AM Gn. Hernicius Piscinus (Piscinus@--------) wrote:

>Salve Vado
> Surely your warning was not meant for me!? I am still feeling my way
>about in here and already wading into some questions on the religio
>romana.
[snip]

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra
From:	"Marcus Darius Ursus" <marcus_darius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 12:45:10 MDT

Salve,

I'm hardly an expert, but I believe I have the answer to this question. By
pushing down on your heels, you force your legs forward and in. This would
allow your knees and calves to grip against the side of the horse, with your
feet resting just above the horse's forequarters.

Although far from ideal, it would allow you to hold a lance in one hand and
the reins in the other. I must stress that the total body strength of these
riders would have to be great as it would require strong legs to grip the
horse, and strong arms and shoulders to handle a lance and reins. The only
advantage of this method was if you were thrown from the back of the horse,
you would roll backwards off the back of the horse, thus avoiding the fear
of being run over by ones own horse. Of course this was useless if you
landed on your head.

This method was largely used until the first basic stirrup was developed
around 700 AD. Even so, these early stirrups were far from ideal (they
chaffed the calves) and thus many riders continued to use the 'Roman' method
far into the days of Charlemagne.

Vale,
Marcus Darius Ursus
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Scroll: A Tale of Ancient Rome
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 14:55:50 EDT

Salvete,

Gaius Lupinius Festus may have taken some dramatic license with the
charachters presented in his tale, but by some small miracle he DID include
my favorite flavor of Pizza.

I therefore request that this story be preserved in the Carmaenum section of
the Nova Roma website. :) Does the Senate need to authorize such an
inclusion?

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The Scroll: A Tale of Ancient Rome
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 09:36:29 -0700

I think that is an excellent idea! :)

Sulla Felix

cassius622@-------- wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus may have taken some dramatic license with the
> charachters presented in his tale, but by some small miracle he DID include
> my favorite flavor of Pizza.
>
> I therefore request that this story be preserved in the Carmaenum section of
> the Nova Roma website. :) Does the Senate need to authorize such an
> inclusion?
>
> Valete,
>
> Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.
> Remember the good 'ol days
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra behind the scenes look.
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 17:41:13 EDT

In a message dated 5/27/2000 9:35:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
LSergAust@-------- writes:

<< Clearly these productions reflect a contempt for their audiences, for
their culture, for other peoples' cultures, for history, for accuracy,
and for probably anything else except MONEY.
>>
As the historian to oversee the historical accuracy of the script, I must say
we got as historic as possible. Based on the sources. The problem came
about when the script was put in production. The producers decided to save
180k from the 35 mill production and let me go. They brought the armorer to
Spain. Then let him go before his fabrication was complete. I wanted
Patrick Stewart as Caesar. Who will forget his powerful portrayal as Sejanus
in "I, Claudius." However he wanted 6.5 mill, and we got Dalton for less
then 2. BTW the producer made 3 mill for himself before taxes.
As for the girl, not only was she sultry and sexy, but she was hot in Europe
and she was cheap. NBC held domestic rights and first play window, but not
European rights. The casting was for the European window. (Plus she and the
producer might had have a thing going...there were unsubstantiated rumors)
Actually the only actress that looks like Cleopatra, based on her coin
portrait is Angelica Huston. Of course she was too old. Helen Mirram read
for the part, but she was too old as well.
About stirrups. This days riders cannot ride without them. And most unions
demand them to protect their people.

Business as usual
QFM

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)
From:	"M G" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 22:16:51 +0300

----- Original Message -----
From: <Piscinus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, 27 May, 2000 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)



> absolutely refused to put oregano in her marana because she considered it
> Greek.



Please:
What is MARANA ?

Thanks in advance.

Marcus Prometheus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra behind the scenes look.
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 18:41:21 -0600

At 05:41 PM 5/27/00 -0400, you wrote:

>About stirrups. This days riders cannot ride without them. And most unions
>demand them to protect their people.

About stirrups: the Sarmatian cavalry (active under MA) had stirrups for
quite a few centuries ... the late Roman heavy horse couldn't function
without them ...

mpj


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