Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 19:57:29 EDT

Salve M. Prometheus

Mea culpa. Mi scusi. Some of us in the states speak strange and obscure
dialects that probably disappeared from Italy over a hundred years ago, like
New Orleans Creole or Canadian French is to modern French. And then there
are those of us who tried to imitate what we thought we were hearing.
Marana???? By that I mean marinara, spaghetti sauce. To her, to use oregano,
as opposed to basil, meant Calabria, and northern Italians used marjoram and
Sicilians used mint... And I have no idea if any of this really reflected
what it was like in her day or is presently like in Italy. She just had
certain views on some things.
And for any of you who fancy yourself an Apicius...if you are having a
problem finding rocket, I have a ton of it growing in my yard. I can't get
rid of it. Whereas if there are any Italians out there, I am having
difficulty trying to grow cardoon and could use some advice.
And please...can someone explain how I was ever maneuvered away from
discussing Ops and theology into gardening and cooking. Praeterea perio.
Habesne plus vini, Pompei?

Vale
Piscine

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Subject:	[novaroma] Theological View;
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 20:38:23 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Piscinus;

Although I am not particularly known for my theological thinking, I was
facinated by your comments some time ago regarding the different facets
of religion and your discussion about 7 different souls.

In my view the basis of my theological beliefs are rather wide-spead,
and although I am a Protestant Christian (my determination not
necessarily that of others--Grin!!), it seems to very much easier for me
to see the reflection of my personal beliefs in the belief systems of
others. I once compared my views to gazing outward to the different
realms of theology through different facets of the same gem of truth and
wisdom.

Not being a theologian by nature or by study, it is sometimes very
difficult to see how my personal beliefs enable me to respect and
understand other's beliefs, in the face of much intolerance in my own
religion. I have always wondered (silently after an eary age blurting
out of this question and the punishment that followed!!!!!!) how any one
religion could be so sure that their beliefs were all true and right,
while all others to whom equal devotion and study has been given are
wholly wrong. I have never understood that, and in my very brief
delving into Bhuddism, Islam, Catholicism, Christain Science, and
Seventh Day Adventist, in each I found good, sincere loving people, who
were willing to help, and were good friends, but were adamant about
"thier" religion and it's accendance over all the rest.

Having said all that, and having come to my views, pretty much on my
own, and having somewhat of a bad attitude about being told what to
believe and who to look to, and how to do it, I was very interested in
your comments. I would very much like to hear more on those topics, if
in fact you are willing and have the desire to do so.

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


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Subject:	[novaroma] Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium
From:	acadianusdraco@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 20:46:09 EDT

Salvete Omnes,

I regret to inform the Senate and People of Rome that I do NOT deliver pizza
to Canada. Or Texas. Ever.

Feste: Remember my earlier thoughts regarding you, a lead-lined wicker
basket, and the Tiber? I think the moment of implementing my suggestion may
have arrived. Might I suggest that you don your spiffiest swimming trunks
and practice holding your breath...

Still laughing,
Acadianus Draco

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	"L=?ISO-8859-1?B?7Q==?=s Shokatsu" <ljes@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 18:34:25 -0700

> Whether by accident or design what they settled on
> only enhanced the character as being personally virtuous in a way appropriate
> for a soldier in any age.
> Vale
> Gn. Hernicius Piscinus


Salvete omnes,

I am new here, and I am not as versed in Roman history as most of you -
which is why I am here - I have a HUGE desire to learn more... what I do
know relates to the Roman Army in Britain (I used to live in Chester).
Although the film makers make no pretense about producing a FICTICIONAL
story, there are amny instances of correct historical content.

I enjoyed the portrayal of Maximus and his private moments. It showed him to
be a deeply devoted family man, with strong traditions and morals - it did
not matter to me what god or ancestor he was praying too, or that he prayed
at all. What I think the point of these scenes were, was to show his deep
love & pain of loss for his family. This was his strength to fight in the
arena, to live long enough and to get close enough to Commodus to avenge
them. That's it - I don't think that trying to portray or not portray a
particular religion even entered into Scott's mind... this is Hoolywood
after all - his only concern would have been to invoke the emotions of the
audience.

However..

I would very much like more information on what was inaccurate.

This is what I DO know:

* that Marcus Aurelius was an Emperor, who probably died of the plague, &
that he ruled together with Commodus for about three years.

* Lucius was Lucilla's brother, not her son, and an Emperor.

* Commodus was poisoned by his mistress and strangled by a servant


Here's what I'd like to know (along with anything I have missed):

* if Maximus Decimus Meridius was a Spaniard, could he have been a General?
I thought only Italians/citizens could hold this title and since this movie
was c.175 CE it was prior to the 212CE granting of citizenship to all free
men in the Empire.

* Were the costumes worn by Lucilla historicaly acurate? - they were
fabulously creative - which leads me to suspect some Italian/French Fashion
house took a lot of historical liberties :)

* In the original script, Maximus was called Narcissus Meridas - would this
have been better or worse - historically speaking? and are these names
totally fictional?

* I thought the Roman Cavalry was used for scouting and messaging, along
with flank -guard duties along a march - is their portrayal in the movie
accurate? and did they have saddles in the movie? - if so - was that
accurate?

* I thought Roman Generals were experienced war veterans - which means they
were older than the average soldier - who watched from a vantage point (as
the Emperor did) with at least a cohort in reserve, to dispatch orders/men
according to battle developments. - not young men who lead their soldiers
into battle as Maximus did.

>Would SPQR be inappropriate in this period?
Not at all... We were in Principate. The SPQR were still respected... In
theory at least...
But I have my doubts as to whether such a mark was used at all. (thanx for
this post - it answered my question re: did such tatoos exist:)


FYI:

The history re-enactment group Britannia (http://www.arthurian.freeuk.com/)
and Bow expert Steve Ralph
(http://freespace.virgin.net/steve.ralphs/index.htm) helped make the opening
scenes as realistic and true to history as possible under the director
Ridley Scott.

Some very interesting tidbits and insight into the movie can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Cinema/1501/indexglad.html

Apologies for the great length of this post,
I look forward to your comments.

Thank you for allowing my ineraction with NR

Bene Valete,

Tertia Albia Caesia (hopefully:)

PS
> (snip) One thing
>about Crowe's character's worship that startled me, and I know this is from
>a quasi biased perspective, was when he said something along the lines of
>sacred Mother and Father... (snip)
the line was: "Blessed Mother, Blessed Father..."




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium
From:	"Rick Brett" <trog99@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 18:38:57 PDT

Salve Acadianus Draco:

Well, I was rather forced to assume that you don't deliver pizza to
Canada....I placed my order about 4 hours ago, taking timezones into
account:) :) ..I guess Texas is starving too!

Yunno, this really is too bad, because I was thinking that if you pulled
this business off, and donated 10% of all sales to the Macellum, you could
obtain Equestrian status....and be celebrated as the founder of the first
international on-line pizzaria!! And...And....

What's that?........you're still "not" interested??

Waddya mean?

Smiles! :)
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo



>From: acadianusdraco@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium
>Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 20:46:09 EDT
>
>Salvete Omnes,
>
>I regret to inform the Senate and People of Rome that I do NOT deliver
>pizza
>to Canada. Or Texas. Ever.
>
>Feste: Remember my earlier thoughts regarding you, a lead-lined wicker
>basket, and the Tiber? I think the moment of implementing my suggestion
>may
>have arrived. Might I suggest that you don your spiffiest swimming trunks
>and practice holding your breath...
>
>Still laughing,
>Acadianus Draco
>
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>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: "Seezer"
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 21:58:23 EDT

I don't know, but maybe they didn't pronounce Lucius and Lucilla correctly
for a reason...

"Lukius", "Loo-killa".... Might've been sort of odd to hear.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 15:28:36 -0700

But you do deliver to Southern California.....Because Helena and I have been
waiting for hours for our delievery....boy I guess you dont want a tip! ;)

Sulla Felix

acadianusdraco@-------- wrote:

> Salvete Omnes,
>
> I regret to inform the Senate and People of Rome that I do NOT deliver pizza
> to Canada. Or Texas. Ever.
>
> Feste: Remember my earlier thoughts regarding you, a lead-lined wicker
> basket, and the Tiber? I think the moment of implementing my suggestion may
> have arrived. Might I suggest that you don your spiffiest swimming trunks
> and practice holding your breath...
>
> Still laughing,
> Acadianus Draco
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Missing old school friends? Find them here:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4055/6/_/61050/_/959474772/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological View;
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 22:15:57 EDT

Salve Marcus Audens

I feel that if one truly believes in a deity, a deity of any kind, then
it must truly be a humbling experience. How then could someone who truly
approaches their deity with humility do anything other than question
everything they have come to believe. Who moreso than Plato in the Parmenides
critically examined Plato's system of thought? And what are the wonderful
poems of by the mystic Jelaluddin Rumi but an approach to his God Allah
through a questioning of himself? Reflected in the piety of such men I must
always examine myself. Did not your Jesus have a moment of doubt, and
confronted himself in a garden before he resolved to meet his destiny? And
to whom did Arjuna speak in his moment of hesitation on the battlefield? Or
to whom did Socrates speak? Who is the Poimandres with whom Trismegistis
speaks? Having such examples presented to us, can we do any less? And when
it becomes our turn to lie upon our deathbed will we have the confidence of
Plotinus that that which is the better part of ourselves shall return to
whence it came?
Like you I examine my own beliefs by holding them up to the light I find
in the beliefs of others. The words of others and the sacred texts of many
different belief systems give me pause to think of my own beliefs. I would
therefor welcome anyone to discuss such topics with me.
But also, as I was discussing with another citizen, dear Pompeia, such
discussions only move the intellect. As a pagan I know that my intellect
might approach my soul, but only through experiencing the divine may my soul
reunite in ek stasis with my goddess and together shall we pass on to whence
we came. That perhaps is the distinction I make between philosophy and
religion, the differences between the experiences of the animus and the anima.

Di te mittere benis ventis volunt.
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium
From:	Marius Fimbria <legion6@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net

Salvete!

>Well, I was rather forced to assume that you don't deliver pizza to
>Canada....I placed my order about 4 hours ago, taking timezones into
>account:) :) ..I guess Texas is starving too!

Texas is definitely starving, especially my little 10' by 15' portion
of it...and, you know, I'm beginning to suspect a Conspiracy! NObody
will deliver pizza to my trailer: I'm either too far south for South
Dallas, too far east for Oak Cliff, too far west for East Oak Cliff, or
too far north for Duncanville... Sigh. "Domino's--Delivering 15
Million Smiles a Day"--and not one of 'em is mine!! >({|8-}

Draco: *prettyprettyplease*.............? [big brown puppy-dog eyes]

-- Marius Fimbria

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	"Jane or Patricia " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 02:44:08 -0000

> * Were the costumes worn by Lucilla historicaly acurate? - they were
> fabulously creative - which leads me to suspect some Italian/French
Fashion
> house took a lot of historical liberties :)

No, they weren't. A few of them looked something like what a woman of
the Imperial family might have worn - if she'd had access to slinky
synthetic fabrics, which the Romans didn't have. They did have linen,
wool, cotton (from Egypt), and silk. That corset thing she wore in
the
last scene was a howler (as Marius Fimbria will no doubt agree!).

> * In the original script, Maximus was called Narcissus Meridas -
would this
> have been better or worse - historically speaking? and are these
names
> totally fictional?

The original guy who inspired the story was named Pertinax. I think
Narcissus Meridas just didn't sound macho enough.

> > (snip) One thing
> >about Crowe's character's worship that startled me, and I know
this is from
> >a quasi biased perspective, was when he said something along the
lines of
> >sacred Mother and Father... (snip)
> the line was: "Blessed Mother, Blessed Father..."

Elements of ancestor worship persisted throughout the Roman period.
It's not a strong religious motif, mostly taking the form of images
paraded at funerals, but it did exist. Honoring one's ancestors was a
sign of being "pius" (dutiful), and making offerings to them was a
part
of such festivals as Parentalia.

My response to the movie based on my knowledge of Roman history is at
http://www.imperiumarts.com/gladiator.htm. I'm not a scholar so most
of
this comes from my reading and my own (almost certainly flawed)
interpretation. But for what it's worth, there it is.

Patricia Cassia



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium
From:	JustiniaCassia@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 23:25:59 EDT

Reading my mail today sure is making me hungry!

You Texans need to come up north a bit to visit me in Kansas. Living in a
college town on the prairie, there are more pizza places here than there are
trees. My current favorite features a whole wheat crust with a spicy red
wine sauce.

Iustinia Cassia

In a message dated 5/27/0 9:41:17 PM, legion6@-------- writes:

<< Texas is definitely starving, especially my little 10' by 15' portion
of it...and, you know, I'm beginning to suspect a Conspiracy! NObody
will deliver pizza to my trailer: I'm either too far south for South
Dallas, too far east for Oak Cliff, too far west for East Oak Cliff, or
too far north for Duncanville... Sigh. "Domino's--Delivering 15
Million Smiles a Day"--and not one of 'em is mine!! >({|8-}

Draco: *prettyprettyplease*.............? [big brown puppy-dog eyes]

-- Marius Fimbria >>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra behind the scenes look.
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 23:33:17 EDT

Fascinating, Quintus Fabius! I had no idea you did this sort of work.
Thanks for the behind-the-scenes details.

L. Sergius Aust.

On 5/27/00 4:41 PM Quintus Fabius Maximus (sfp55@--------) wrote:

>In a message dated 5/27/2000 9:35:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>LSergAust@-------- writes:
>
><< Clearly these productions reflect a contempt for their audiences, for
> their culture, for other peoples' cultures, for history, for accuracy,
> and for probably anything else except MONEY.
> >>
>As the historian to oversee the historical accuracy of the script, I must
>say
>we got as historic as possible. Based on the sources. The problem came
>about when the script was put in production. The producers decided to save
>180k from the 35 mill production and let me go. They brought the armorer to
>Spain. Then let him go before his fabrication was complete. I wanted
>Patrick Stewart as Caesar. Who will forget his powerful portrayal as
>Sejanus
>in "I, Claudius." However he wanted 6.5 mill, and we got Dalton for less
>then 2. BTW the producer made 3 mill for himself before taxes.
>As for the girl, not only was she sultry and sexy, but she was hot in Europe
>and she was cheap. NBC held domestic rights and first play window, but not
>European rights. The casting was for the European window. (Plus she and
>the
>producer might had have a thing going...there were unsubstantiated rumors)
>Actually the only actress that looks like Cleopatra, based on her coin
>portrait is Angelica Huston. Of course she was too old. Helen Mirram read
>for the part, but she was too old as well.
>About stirrups. This days riders cannot ride without them. And most unions
>demand them to protect their people.
>
>Business as usual
>QFM


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 02:18:13 EDT

In a message dated 5/27/2000 7:41:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
legion6@-------- writes:

<< Texas is definitely starving, especially my little 10' by 15' portion
of it...and, you know, I'm beginning to suspect a Conspiracy! Nobody
will deliver pizza to my trailer: I'm either too far south for South
Dallas, too far east for Oak Cliff, too far west for East Oak Cliff, or
too far north for Duncanville... Sigh. "Domino's--Delivering 15
Million Smiles a Day"--and not one of 'em is mine >>
This is what you get for picking the most inhospitable place on earth to
garrison. No pizza!
Ah the sacrifices we make for Rome!
QFM

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra behind the scenes look.
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 02:39:28 EDT

In a message dated 5/27/2000 8:33:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
LSergAust@-------- writes:

<< Thanks for the behind-the-scenes details. >>
Most of you do not know Bandwagon Productions does most the historical
polishing of First and Second draft historical (we call them hysterical)
scripts. Currently we are finishing up Pressmen's "Thermoplye" which has
Stephen Speilburg's interest. We just got the "Mummy II " rewrite, and I'm
finishing up "Pilate's Wife." for TVM consideration. More Christian
propaganda. (Sorry Christians :))

Exciting news. Prima Fabia has shown me her rendering of Iuppiter Optimus
Maximus. It was exquisitely done. As soon as I scan it, I'll forward it to
the Pontifex Maximus for a decision on whether or not to use it as a coin
engraving portrait.
Vale
Q. Fabius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological View;
From:	"Rick Brett" <trog99@-------->
Date:	Sat, 27 May 2000 23:56:35 PDT

Salvete Piscinus et. al:


When I read discourses like what you have just provided us, Piscinus, much,
much, more than my intellect is stirred :)!! . You have reminded us about
how vital the dimension of spirituality truly is in our path of existence..
.a dimension we cannot explain in our minds, but that we know in our hearts
to be essential.

To quote one cive for whom I have a very deep regard : "May you enjoy a
continued presence with the divine mind!"

Piscinus, I extend this blessing to you, and to all Nova Romani !:)

Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo


>From: Piscinus@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Theological View;
>Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:15:57 EDT
>
>Salve Marcus Audens
>
> I feel that if one truly believes in a deity, a deity of any kind,
>then
>it must truly be a humbling experience. How then could someone who truly
>approaches their deity with humility do anything other than question
>everything they have come to believe. Who moreso than Plato in the
>Parmenides
> critically examined Plato's system of thought? And what are the
>wonderful
>poems of by the mystic Jelaluddin Rumi but an approach to his God Allah
>through a questioning of himself? Reflected in the piety of such men I
>must
>always examine myself. Did not your Jesus have a moment of doubt, and
>confronted himself in a garden before he resolved to meet his destiny? And
>to whom did Arjuna speak in his moment of hesitation on the battlefield?
>Or
>to whom did Socrates speak? Who is the Poimandres with whom Trismegistis
>speaks? Having such examples presented to us, can we do any less? And
>when
>it becomes our turn to lie upon our deathbed will we have the confidence of
>Plotinus that that which is the better part of ourselves shall return to
>whence it came?
> Like you I examine my own beliefs by holding them up to the light I
>find
>in the beliefs of others. The words of others and the sacred texts of many
>different belief systems give me pause to think of my own beliefs. I would
>therefor welcome anyone to discuss such topics with me.
> But also, as I was discussing with another citizen, dear Pompeia, such
>discussions only move the intellect. As a pagan I know that my intellect
>might approach my soul, but only through experiencing the divine may my
>soul
>reunite in ek stasis with my goddess and together shall we pass on to
>whence
>we came. That perhaps is the distinction I make between philosophy and
>religion, the differences between the experiences of the animus and the
>anima.
>
> Di te mittere benis ventis volunt.
> Gn. Hernicius Piscinus
>
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>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	"M G" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 13:31:13 +0300

----- Original Message -----
From: Lís Shokatsu <ljes@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, 28 May, 2000 4:34 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator


> >
> Here's what I'd like to know (along with anything I have missed):
>
> * if Maximus Decimus Meridius was a Spaniard, could he have been a
General?
> I thought only Italians/citizens could hold this title and since this
movie
> was c.175 CE it was prior to the 212CE granting of citizenship to all free
> men in the Empire.


Of course he could. Full Colonies of citizens were scattered in all
Provinces since earlier times, and citizenship was granted selectively to
many other communities all the time.
What happened in 212 was only granting citizenship for taxation purposes to
everybody
(in italian we would say to dogs and pigs).

Marcus Prometheus




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Subject:	[novaroma] Fw: pagans & atheists on Oslo roofs ?
From:	"M G" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 13:51:06 +0300

Mostly off topic

Subject of narrowly limited interest

ATTENTION ONLY ASATRU SCANDINAVIANS :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
An italian mail list has recently forwarded this post
based on a fax received from Taiwan Republic of China
one month and half ago, asking if anybody knows what happened next.

It looks as speaking of an alliance of pagans and atheists in Norway
or perhaps just of calling the atheists "pagans" ??????
Maybe our Asatru friends know something about it, and want to clarify.

Marcus Prometheus
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


> > Wednesday, march 29, 2000 - Taipei times
> >
> > Oslo pagans look to 'preach' non-religion from rooftops
> >
> > AFP. (or APP. ? not clear in the original fax), OSLO
> >
> > Oslo will soon know if atheists will be allowed to shout that "God does
> > not
> > exist" and pagans will shout they have many gods from the rooftops
> > of the Norwegian capital in response to a decision
> > to allow Muslims to broadcast calls to the faithful from local mosques.
> >
> > The city council was due to vote yesterday on whether the atheists
will
> > be
> > allowed to pursue their plan, which would mean installing loudspeakers
> on
> > a
> > building close to a mosque and two churches in the Gamle Oslo
> > neighborhood
> > of the capital.
> > The loudspeakers would broadcast extracts from the universal
> > declaration of
> > human rights along with speeches extolling laicity, the Norwegian Pagan
> > Society said.
> > Its secretary, Harald Fagerhus, said that one's religion was a personal
> > matter, but that "since the church bells and the preaching from the
> > mosques
> >have taken over the public space, we want to be able to do the same."
> > In January, the city council gave its accord in principle to permit
> > Muslim
> > priests to broadcast the call to prayers five times a day from the 18
> > minarets in Oslo, punctuated with the words "God is the greatest"
> > (AllahAkhbar).
> > A Pagan Society official, Per Kristian Hansen, said the group was
> > demanding
> > abolition of the right to make noise "just because these people believe
> > in a God".
> > Oslo has a population of alt half-a-million, 36,000 of them Muslims.
> > The Norwegian pagans have demanded the right to broadcast five-minute
> > calls between 8:30am and 7pm on Mondays and Tuesdays, up to ten times a
> > year and using low-power speakers. The municipal official in charge of
> > Gamle Oslo, Oeyvind Loenna, who was tasked with verifying the pagan
> > demand,
> > ruled that it did not infringe on good neighborly relations.
> > "We are not against any religious freedom. But this freedom means that
> > one can
> > be free of all religions", said Fagerhus, speaking in his office
> > Lutheran Protestantism is the dominant religion in Norway, where the
> > king
> > and at least 50 percent of government ministers must be members of that
> > church, according to the constitution.
> >
--------end of original post--------------------

I repeat, I don't know anymore on the subject,
that's why myself I'm asking further information.
Those giving further information or interested to further developments
please do correspond with me olnly OFF LIST
( as the issue could be disturbing and off topic) writing to
Marcus Prometheus fresco@--------



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 12:16:07 +0100

Bene salvere iubeo, mi Piscine!

> Salve Vado
> Surely your warning was not meant for me!? I am still feeling my way
> about in here and already wading into some questions on the religio
romana.

I've had the honour of being a civis Novae Romae for about eighteen months
now, and I'm still feeling my way, too. I DID say: "hoc est verbum
sapientibus" ;-)

> I was glad to learn from you that NR does recognize same-sex marriages. I
am
> authorized by the Great State of Ohio, land of burning rivers and corn
pone,
> to perform marriages. If you can get a license from those inbreds down in
> southern Ohio I'll perform a ceremony for your cat to marry Marius' dogs.

Two cats, actually (both third-gendered :-). We could have a foursome
wedding. The actual partners would undoubtedly loathe the idea, but none of
them is sui iuris, and it would be an excellent means of cementing the
amicitia between the respective patresfamilias. What do you think, Merulle?
Fimbria?

> While stumbling about on this site I have become confused more than a few
> times. Are we in Republican times, or do we emulate the Empire, or throw
it
> all to the wind and evolve into a totally new form of Rome. I lean
towards
> the latter, but feel you need to have a solid base to begin to evolve
from.

Personally, I'm with you there. While our political institutions
intentionally mirror those of the middle to late Republic, and uninventing
the political aspects of the Principate is something long overdue, to
attempt something similar on the Religio would, IMHO, be impious in the
extreme. Even including Gens Claudia Lucentia's predisposition for the
Imperial cult (as long as that never becomes part of the official cult).

> And, too, when getting to specifics I lean towards the earliest precedent
to
> move from.
> Let us move through some random thoughts, in no particular order:
> 1.) Minerva as a virgin goddess. That might be true in Greek
mythology,
> and was adopted into Roman myth at a later period. But in Italian myth,
> Etruscan and Oscan, (I'm scrambling to find reference to it in Rome),
Minrva
> has Hercules as a consort and she gives birth to Maris (not the same Maris
> generally identified with Mars.)

Even in Greek mythology (well, Athenian), there's a story that Athene 'gave
birth' to Erechtheus after wiping the semen off her thigh to the ground when
Hephaestus was pursuing her with lewd intent. Autochthonous
parthenogenesis, you might say. If you had the articulated tongue of a
Greek.

> Here too, Italian myths about Hercules only
> later adopt Greek stories. The variance between Greek and Italian, some
feel
> is due to Punic influence in Early Italy. Perhaps but I think there is an
> even earlier model for the Italian Hercules: the giant called Celscan by
the
> Etruscans. Also the referral to Hercules as Garanos as the slayer of
Cacus
> points to a much earlier, indiginous mythos.

Me, I believe in the Aeneas legend, and a late Mycenean period foundation
for Latin civilisation. But this is fascinating! Do you have a reference to
Hercules Garanos?

> 2.) Yes, the gods and goddesses were a bit ambivelent about their
sexual
> identity. But that too is a later development that grows alongside
> developments in Neoplatonism, especially to their psychology.

Damn! Damn! Damn! I KNEW you were going to say that, as soon as I posted
the last! Damn!
):-(

> To me that is
> only a different subject, one of particular interest to me and that I
would
> enjoy taking up at another time.

Whenever you're ready, amice! (Bearing in mind, Quirites, that this has
absolutely no bearing on a certain sub iudice matter).

> To me the religio romana refers to what was
> specificly roman without Greek influence. Blame it on my nonna, who
> absolutely refused to put oregano in her marana because she considered it
> Greek.

Magna voce rideo!!! I admire this, I really do. But Etruscan influences are
OK, perhaps? (e.g., 'Lar' would appear to be an Etruscan word). How to
separate them?

>Roman deities, especially in the earliest periods, didn't have any
> sexual identity. They were more as forces of nature. The Hygini
Mythographi
> that identifies a genealogiae comes from, I believe, around 207 ce, but
based
> on earlier ideas. There became a notion that as gods and goddess existed
> sexually distinct, they must have liasons and procreate (an Egyptian
> concept?)

Well, if you think the Egyptians were the first to discover where babies
come from...:-)

> There were so many deities running about that this seemed like a
> way to relate them all together. As for Saturno's progeny: ex Saturno et
Ope
> Vesta Ceres, Iuno Iuppiter Pluto Neptunus, or then again, ex Saturno et
> Philra Chiron Dolops, read below.

Plausible hypothesis, BUT it fails to take into account any ancient, and
transmitted, direct empirical experience of the gods and their expressed
preferences and activities.

> 3.) Yeah, the hair on the back of my neck goes up when you start
playing
> with my religious belief. Just an instinctive reaction. Part of my family
> came from Ferentinium of the Hernicii, whose city walls, legend has, were
> built by the sons of Saturno.

WOW! The kind of masonry known elsewhere (in Mycenean contexts) as
'Cyclopean'?

> That refers to a much earlier period. The
> city walls of Ferentino date back to the early Bronze Age, if not the
> Neolithic, but any way long before there was even a thought about a Rome.
> (See Livy's references to the city). And the other part of my family came
> from Teate Marruciniorum, (that same nonna refused to allow me into her
house
> and would set the dogs on me because she viewed me a halfbreed; aren't
> granma's nice). That is part of the reason why I am interested in
earlier,
> Italic mythos, unadulterated by those Greeks. Both sides of my family
> retained their pagan practises in their traditions. Essentially I was
raised
> pagan, initially by my bisnonna (for whom I have an unending fondness and
who
> was the mother-in-law of the nona mentioned above that I have a few other
> feelings about).
> The patron Goddess of Ferentino is Ferentina (Notice Her sex was
changed
> to appease the christists later). There were several Mother Goddesses
> throughout Vitelia: Ferentina, Ops, Maia, Tellus, Tutilina, Libitania,
> Larunda, Mafitei, Limentina, Feronia, Fatuai, Ceursa, Herentai, Iututna,
and
> Iurpa to name only a few. Some of these Goddesses evolved to become
> patronesses of vary narrow areas of concern. Others were equated with one
> another. At some later point I would like to take up the subject of Ceres
> seperately - the distinction between Demeter whose temple was established
in
> 490 bce on the Avertine and the Italic Goddess whose name she was given.

Oh, yes, please :-D

> Admist all the confusion that was to arise in the expansion of Rome, the
> Republic built the Temple to Bona Dea on the roads south from the Avertine
> where many of the other goddesses had their temples. Bona Dea is a
catch-all
> Goddess, the Dea Dia who is also another Ops.

I expressed a similar thought to Cornelius Scriptor the other day. But this
is intellectual speculation. They may, of course, have completely objective,
independent, autonomous existences. I believe one can verify empirically.

> This idea of a multiple
> expression of the Goddess (as well as the ambivelence of the gods
sexualness)
> really comes out in the Orphic Hymns. Geneologies of the Dii may serve as
a
> who's who, but in practise, by whatever name you prefer, it amount to the
> same deity which connects with one's female aspect of one's soul.

Oh, Gods! You and Graecus are going to get on just fine! I shall enjoy
arguing with you, as much as I do with Graecus.

> 4.) On a personal level this last comment I think is the most
important
> aspect of any religion. It does not matter if you wish to identify part of
> your soul with Krsna by chanting his name, or bring Jesus into your heart
as
> some express it, Plutarch said that the myths of the Gods were merely
stages
> in the life of our own individual souls. This is what the "innovative
> re-working of myth" is all about.

I prefer to see it as a similar creative genre to that of historical
fiction.

> Before orthodoxy set in even the
> christists understood this, or at least those who were later condemned as
> gnostics. I would recognize that everyone's soul is composed of parts, or
> that everyone has a number of different souls (the Greeks, after the
> Egyptions, recognized seven souls, and Cicero struggled in comprehending
this
> in The Nature of the Gods because Latin had not yet developed to express
the
> concept).

I believe the Latins had. What about Genius, Spiritus, Anima?

> Every one is both male and female, and these different aspects of
> indivdiuals tend to develop at different paces. One goal as a pagan is to
> bring each part into harmony. That was a lesson Hercules had to be taught
by
> Omphale, that he did indeed have a female side and that it was just as
> important for him to develop it if he intended to attain to immortality.
(As
> you can see, perhaps, this whole train of thought on psychology needs to
be
> developed seperately.)

But perhaps not. After all, it's PSYCHOU+LOGOS ('Soul-Science'), not
Cephalology ('Headology').

> Well, I have been rambling enough for the moment and there is still a
> flood of thoughts pouring out. It was my intention from the start to
> instigate some discussion and I hope I have achieved that.

Quod est demonstrandum.

> My apologies to
> any I might have offended in my expression of thoughts. You have yet to
> become familiar with me, as I am with you. Yes, Vado, I revel in
diversity,
> too, and only wish to celebrate it; and if that can be done with a sense
of
> humor, all the better.

Et idem in me. Vale amice atque valete mei Populari,

Vado

(Whose Nonnae were Brigantian and Icenian, and whose Mater called him
'Nicolaus' because she thought it was Roman).


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 07:36:00 EDT

Salvete Quirites

There is in Gibbon mention of the Quintillian brothers Maximus and
Corndianus, of whom "the Antonines, who valued their virtus and delighted in
their union, raised them , in the same year, to the consulship: and Marcus
afterward intrusted them to their joint care the civil administration of
Greece, and a great military command, in which they obtained a signal
victorty over the Germans. The kind cruelty of commodus united them in
death." Gibbon refers to Casaubon's "Augustan History" as his source, and to
a treatise which the Quintillian brothers wrote together. Some of his other
comments in this brief mention are intriguing as well. Considering the
interest developing around the fictional Maximus it would be interesting to
read what the historical Maximus had written along with his brother
Corndianus.
Another contributor to this discussion has mentioned Pertinax as the
model for the film's Maximus. At this point I know only that Maximus and
Corndianus were respected by Marcus Aurelius, and Pertinax by the Senate, as
examples of true Roman virtue, and I for one would like to learn more about
all three.

Valete
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 12:49:56 +0100

Tibi salvere iubeo in Nova Roma, mea Tertia Albia Caesia!

> I am new here, and I am not as versed in Roman history as most of you -
> which is why I am here - I have a HUGE desire to learn more... what I do
> know relates to the Roman Army in Britain (I used to live in Chester).

Aha! My wife Aletheia Moravia was born in Deva (where her father was a
Decurion of auxiliary cavalry at the time). You might wish to share your
enthusiasm and knowledge with us Brittones Novae Romae on
mailto:britannia@-------- Please do! Two of us are members of the
(reconstructed) Legio II Augusta.

(Aletheia has just remarked that the 17th/21st Lancers would be extremely
upset at being decribed as 'auxiliary').

> * if Maximus Decimus Meridius was a Spaniard, could he have been a
General?
> I thought only Italians/citizens could hold this title and since this
movie
> was c.175 CE it was prior to the 212CE granting of citizenship to all free
> men in the Empire.

Don't forget that the Emperor Traian was a Spaniard, and a general before he
came to the Purple.

> * I thought the Roman Cavalry was used for scouting and messaging, along
> with flank -guard duties along a march - is their portrayal in the movie
> accurate? and did they have saddles in the movie? - if so - was that
> accurate?

Cavalry were used for much more than this - but I'll leave it to an expert
to tell you more. I haven't seen the film yet.

> FYI:
>
> The history re-enactment group Britannia
(http://www.arthurian.freeuk.com/)

I came up with a 404 Error when trying to link to this URL.

Bene vale,

N. Moravius Vado
Propraetor Britanniae.



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 13:06:48 +0100

Sautem iterum!

Dixit Patricia Cassia:

> Elements of ancestor worship persisted throughout the Roman period.
> It's not a strong religious motif, mostly taking the form of images
> paraded at funerals, but it did exist. Honoring one's ancestors was a
> sign of being "pius" (dutiful), and making offerings to them was a
> part
> of such festivals as Parentalia.

Mea Patricia, in mea sententia this is highly arguable. The problem with any
element of private (as opposed to official) cult in the Religio Romana, is
that it isn't much documented in primary sources.
Where it is, it tends to take the form of upper-class elite public displays
of Pietas (such as the Ostensio Imaginorum you mentioned here) (in fact,
Patrician families even hired look-alike actors so their family ancestors
could appear to take part in funeral processions), but...

Iuvenal, in his eleventh satire, refers to the sale of one's family's cult
images as being the last extremity a spendthrift bankrupt is reduced to
(next to pawning his signet ring). I read this as implying that the
citizen's identity and status is inextricably determined by family and
ancestry.
And it seems to me much more than an outward piety or social custom: if you
read Ausonius' 'Parentalia', for example, I guarantee there are lines in it
which will make you weep, the devotio familiaris is so intense.

Bene valete,

Vado.



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Subject:	[novaroma] Damascus Steel
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 09:54:07 EDT

As far as I know people don't know how the Romans made Damascus steel, or
whatever it was called. I don't know anything about this historically but a
thought just came to me...

Temperature increases if you compress a gas. If you had 10 cubic meters of
air at 500 degrees and compressed it to 5 cubic meters, the air inside is now
1000 degrees.

Were there any Roman iron-forging stoves found that maybe they didn't know
what parts were for? Maybe a long chamber with a door that was pushed in by
something?

With VERY simple construction methods (nothing more than a fire, some stone,
and a piece of iron ore) the Romans could have made a device where you could
put a piece of iron on a stone plate (sort of like a mold), put that on the
far end of a "heating chamber", heat up the air inside the chamber with
ordinary fire from below, and then push in an almost-airtight "door" to
compress it. You could turn ordinary fire heat into heat that could burn out
any impurities whatsoever.

Wondering from any of you science gurus if I'm wrong about the compression
thing, or from you history guys if this was even possible.

-Alex. Novius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	"Jane or Patricia " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 14:05:21 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Piscinus@a... wrote:
> There is in Gibbon mention of the Quintillian brothers Maximus
and
> Corndianus <amputatio>

Thank you for adding this information!

> Another contributor to this discussion has mentioned Pertinax
as the
> model for the film's Maximus. At this point I know only that
Maximus and
> Corndianus were respected by Marcus Aurelius, and Pertinax by the
Senate, as
> examples of true Roman virtue, and I for one would like to learn
more about
> all three.

I as well! Can anyone out there suggest books or other resources for
doing so?

Patricia Cassia



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Subject:	[novaroma] Ancestor worship (was Gladiator)
From:	"Jane or Patricia " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 14:22:50 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@d...> wrote:

> Iuvenal, in his eleventh satire, refers to the sale of one's
family's cult
> images as being the last extremity a spendthrift bankrupt is
reduced to
> (next to pawning his signet ring). I read this as implying that the
> citizen's identity and status is inextricably determined by family
and
> ancestry.
> And it seems to me much more than an outward piety or social
custom: if you
> read Ausonius' 'Parentalia', for example, I guarantee there are
lines in it
> which will make you weep, the devotio familiaris is so intense.

Thank you, Vado! I phrased my response badly. What I should have said
was that ancestor worship was a strong element in PERSONAL religion,
but was not formalized in the official cults. (That is, unless it was
the Empire and you were descended from an Emperor, in which case it
was
your public duty - and everyone else's - to pay honor to your
ancestors.)

Because this was such a vital part of the Romans' personal faith,
lavish displays in this vein could be used to political advantage,
such
as Julius Caesar's funeral oration for his aunt Julia (wife of Gaius
Marius), which combined advocacy of the Marian cause with honor to
the
Julian family, which claimed descent from Venus herself.

Caesar, as a patrician Roman reared in the mos maiorum, probably felt
genuine grief for his aunt's death and genuine religious devotion to
his ancestors. By making this dramatic gesture he brought greater
honor
to himself and therefore to his ancestors.

On a much smaller scale, in keeping with this impulse Cassius and I
displayed photos of our families, including several honored relatives
now deceased, at our wedding, at which two rooms symbolized my family
home and the home of my husband.

Patricia Cassia



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Subject:	[novaroma] NR Files at e-groups
From:	"PiparskeggUllrsson PUlleriusVenator" <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 15:20:57 -0000

Avete Omnes - Venator scripsit:

I have added two folders in our file area at e-list.

1.) A folder for rituals any may want to contribute. I upoaded the
Apollo ritual I wrote las year.

2.) A folder for information on Sodalities. I moved the information
on the Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus into it.

Benedictus - Venii


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 11:42:01 EDT

On 5/28/00 6:16 AM Vado (gens_moravia@--------) wrote:

>Bene salvere iubeo, mi Piscine!
>
[SNIP]
>
>But perhaps not. After all, it's PSYCHOU+LOGOS ('Soul-Science'), not
>Cephalology ('Headology').
>
Hey, as a professional PSYCHOU+LOGIST and director of a department of
PSYCHOU+LOGOS, I love this distinction and plan to use it in supervision
in the future.

Gratii tibi

L. Sergius Aust.

illud Latine dici non potest.

(You can't say that in Latin.)


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia)
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 11:48:35 EDT

Salve Vado

I would be honored and pleased to celebrate the rite uniting Marius' dogs
with your feline friends, and then feasting afterwards. I have already
spoken with Marius as regards my special fondness of dogs. Although I have
enjoyed dog before (I prefer it in a Szechwan sauce, although chihuahua in
picante or a salsa was fine, too) I have not yet had the pleasure of cat
(allegations of my complicity in the disappearance of the leg of my
neighbor's cat has never been proven, but if Hobbes ever comes approaching my
birdfeeder again someone will be snacking on both his hind legs.) Just the
other day I was reading Apicius' section on Quadrupeds; I think his plum
sauce would do nicely. What would be your preferences? I think we all know
who to ask to cater the affair.

You have made a number of interesting points, which I shall address in
seperate communications. The matter of how much Greek influence existed in
the early religio romana is quite valid. I would say that there are at
least two very different levels present even before the founding of Rome
itself. Further Greek influence, even indirectly through the Etruscans,
might arguably have been present. There is certainly archeological evidence
of a Greek presence in the wares found in the vicinity from the very earliest
period. I do not believe that anyone can definitively say that any
particular aspect of the religio romana was Greek or Punic or Italic, but we
may come to a better understanding of it by trying to define what we mean by
these terms. This one topic will need to be addressed from a number of
different perspectives.
I would not mind venturing a little into comparitive mythology, but if
our discussion should be about the religio romana itself then I would not
want to stray too far into such realms. The ideas expressed by G. de
Santillana and H. von Dechend in "Hamlet Mill" of a worldwide basis for myth
in the stars is very compelling. C. Ginzburg's "Ecstasies: deciphering the
Witches' Sabbath" that links Alpine traditions of Northern Italy, France and
Southern Germany to a trans-Siberian culture, although not directly related
to early Roman or Classical myth, may have some bearing on the early Italic
tribes as they first enter Italy. Robt. Graves ideas concern too specific an
area for discussing comparative mythology as a whole, but would certainly be
relevent in any discussion of Greek and Italic myth. I would suggest also
coupling Graves with the work of M. Gimbutas. (That should stir up a little
reaction in some quarters. I view the followers of Gimbutas as those who
typicly fall into the fallacy of drawing conclusions contrary to the
evidence. However Gimbutas' work in collecting her data is excellent.)
My only real point here is that in any of these discussions we would be
delving into a number of different subject matters and should keep these
seperate. The matter of my views on the human soul, for example, would be
very different in expression than those related to the religio romana. My
rational explanations on the irrational subject of the human soul would
indeed be based on Neoplatonism as it provides, I think, a proper vocabulary
with which to explore subject. (I use the "psychology" specifically to mean a
study of the soul, and not the pseudoscience of observing mental anomolies.)
I am familiar with the Latin terms you mentioned, and the Egyptian terms as
well. Although one can equate such terms from one language to another the
concepts that underlie such terms are not conveyed. Even in using the Greek,
any given term can hold a different meaning depending on to what source is
referred. In E.R.Dodds' translation of Proclus' Elements of Theology his
discussion of the concept of the astral body in Appendix II brings out some
of these problems. (For christist citizens who wish to enter into the fray
Vado and I are about to undertake, it would be very important that you read
this section too, especially as it pertains to 1 Corinth. 15:35-53, and that
this passage be understood in its original Greek form rather than in any
translation.)
Having said that I will enjoin you in seperate discussion on a series of
topics, there is one matter I wish to address here and now:
Empirical verification of divine experiences?????????????????????????????
Mill is turning in his grave. This one got me running to my copy of Elementa
Philosophiae Scholasticae :De criticismo Kantiano sive de idealismo
transcendentali:
Kantius ad pariendam veram certiudinem omnio necessarium esse duxit, ut
ipsius rationis humanae crisis instituatur, inquirendo ante omnia, num revera
habeamus facultatem cognoscendi ea, quae experientiam, i.e. naturam physicam,
transcendunt.
Duplex enim generatim distinguit cognitionis nostrae obiectum: phaenomena
scilicit et noumena... Triplicem primum distinguit facultatem cognoscitivam: V
im sentiendi...Intellectum...Rationem...
In specie vero, diversarum cognitionum haec sunt elementa: 1. Sensibilitat
is...2. Quoad intellectum vero ... 3. In ratione ...
Ex tota denique illa disputatione has summatim Kantius eruit conclusiones,
quibus fit responsum ad propositam sibi quaestionem: utrum revera habeamus
facultatem cognoscendi ea, quae experientiam transcendunt necne, utrum
metaphysica sit possibilis annon:
1. Nos non cognoscimus nisi obiecta sensibilia, et de illis quidem non
nisi phaenomena: ipsa autem realia obiectiva vel noumena non negari quidem pos
sunt, sed a cognitione nostra plane sunt remota.
2. Metaphysica vero, cum constet veritabibus, ad quas devenit ratio pura
concludendo ad ordinem transcendentium, est omnio impossibilis, ut scientia.
3. Quod nihilominus conceptibus nostris in hoc ordine valorem obiectivum
tribuimus, non est noso illusio quaedam naturalis.
4. Physica autem possibilis est, sed non nisi quaetenus circa rerum appare
ntias versatur, idque ita, ut natura visibilis a sensibilitate et intellectu c
onstruator ...

Just in the simplest terms, Vado, explain to me how does one come by
empirical, scientifically measurable physical evidence of a spiritual
experience?

Vale
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Damascus Steel
From:	"PiparskeggUllrsson PUlleriusVenator" <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 17:42:23 -0000

Ave Alex. Novius,

Here's an answer off the top of my head, my metal working books are
out in the shop right now

There are various ways of making "Damascus," also called, watered
(from the pattern) or layered steel. I say this, because what has
become popularized as the current conception of "Damascus" is based
upon the appearance. The word "Damascus" in this sense is a varient
of damascene, wavy in appearence - like damask silk fabric, which has
a wavy, watery look texture. This steel is simply built up by forge
welding bars or rods of steel and iron together, usually with a twist
(hence in the old gun catalogs, ads for "twist steel barreled"
shotguns), flattening the bundle, folding it over, forge welding the
halves back together, repeat, repeat, repeat. Master swordsmiths in
Japan create the most elegant Katana blades in this fashion. One can
end up with upwards of 500 layers within the grain structure of the
blade. "Foxfire, Volume 5" has a description of how this is still
done in Appalachia to build up barrels for muzzle loading firarms.

When one is talking of a steel with the edge holding characteristics
of the legendary "Damascus" swords, then we are speaking of "Wootz"
or blister steel. One must needs start with good wrought iron, which
is "pig" or cast iron, hot worked by hammer, which actually works out
many impurities. Real wrought iron is quite difficult to locate
these days. The iron rods are buried in high quality charcoal (I
have read of bone or ivory charcoal being used) inside a sealed, cast
iron "Baking" pan and heated in a furnace to near molten
temperatures.
This is supposed to introduce carbon into the iron structure. The
rods take on a blistered appearence. Then, one proceeds as in twist
steel.

As for the pressure foundry idea, possible with period technology,
but unlikely. Look at the resources necessary for this low yield,
complex process versus getting out a lot of swords and armor pieces
to equip the Legions.

In officium - Venator


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 14:15:50 EDT

In a message dated 5/28/2000 7:05:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pjane@-------- writes:

<< I as well! Can anyone out there suggest books or other resources for
doing so? >>
Best thing we have is the "Augustian History." Cassius Dio took all his
information
from this. As for other historical sources of the period, the "Barrack
Emperors' Period" is rather sparse. There are secondary works but all pretty
much revolve around the Augustian History as the main source.
QFM

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Subject:	[novaroma] Patricia shares her glory
From:	"Jane or Patricia " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sun, 28 May 2000 20:58:43 -0000

I just got this note in response to my "History Behind 'Gladiator'"
page (http://www.imperiumarts.com/gladiator.htm):

"I thought that was an
outstanding synopsis of both the movie and the actual history. I
found your
site this morning because I was doing a netsearch after reading a
very long
piece in this morning's newspaper entitled, 'Gladiator carves up
history,' by
John F. Kelly of the Washington Post. Much of Kelly's info is
faulty, in my
opinion, and I only wish your excellent article could have been
published
next to it."

Now, I'm not reposting this here to congratulate myself (I'll leave
that to Festus, who gratified my heart by referring to me in fiction
as "beautiful and elegant"), but to say thank you to everyone here
who has provided information or encouragement to me in learning more
about ancient Rome.

Patricia Cassia


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