| Subject: |
[novaroma] Piza |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 31 May 2000 18:57:40 -0000 |
|
I JUST saw on the news that they found 16 roman boats near Piza (sp) with
FULL cargo! I don't know the details though!
L Vatinius
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Cornelia |
| From: |
"susan brett" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:06:17 GMT |
|
Salvete Omnes:
I am writing what will be my final communication in the forum regarding the
delicate circumstances concerning the House of Cornelia of the past few
days.
As you were made aware, four of us, with sadness, petitioned the Office of
the Censors for permission to begin a new Gens, not seeing, at the time, any
other recourse in dealing with some painful family issues. In the aftermath
of a good deal of open, honest and teary communication, by computer and
telephone, it is with the same degree of happiness that we have officially
rescinded this request, and we renew our pledge to the growth and pax of
Cornelia, and to our Pater, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.
This experience has been painful for us all, but we have each learned
valuable lessons from it. And I think we all truly value the concept of
"gens", otherwise it wouldn't have hurt so badly.
I have received private emails expressing concern , support, and offers to
help mend Cornelia. I am very touched by your virtuous concern and
compassion . You are indeed Romans.
Please pray for Cornelia, its members and their loved ones.
Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Change of email address |
| From: |
quintus-sertorius@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:20:06 -0000 |
|
31 May 2000
Salve
This is to inform all that I have changed my email address. My new
email address is " quintus-sertorius@-------- ". Also, my email that
was shown in the Album was wrong. So, if anyone was trying to reach
me and did not recieve a reply, this may be why. I am now requesting
a change to my email in the Album by emailing the Censors.
Vale
Quintus Sertorius
Citizen
Canada Occidentalis
Nova Roma
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Piza |
| From: |
"susan brett" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:42:50 GMT |
|
Salvete, L. Vatinius et.al:
This is awesome. I'll be following this one!! Thanks for the information.
The Roman Navy/shipping is a real interest of mine.
Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia
>From: "StormWolf" <blakmice@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Piza
>Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:57:40 -0000
>
>I JUST saw on the news that they found 16 roman boats near Piza (sp) with
>FULL cargo! I don't know the details though!
>
>L Vatinius
>
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Change of email address |
| From: |
Razenna <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 31 May 2000 18:02:28 -0700 |
|
I have added it to my book
Take care and be well.
Ericius.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Piza |
| From: |
StarWreck@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 31 May 2000 21:03:47 EDT |
|
Salvete,
Where can I find more information about this?
In a message dated 5/31/00 9:00:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
scriba_forum@-------- writes:
<< Salvete, L. Vatinius et.al:
This is awesome. I'll be following this one!! Thanks for the information.
The Roman Navy/shipping is a real interest of mine.
Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia
>From: "StormWolf" <blakmice@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Piza
>Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:57:40 -0000
>
>I JUST saw on the news that they found 16 roman boats near Piza (sp) with
>FULL cargo! I don't know the details though!
>
>L Vatinius
>
>
> >>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] De Equitatione (Was Re:Gladiator) |
| From: |
"Marcus Darius Ursus" <marcus_darius@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 31 May 2000 19:06:50 MDT |
|
Salve, Severus
You wouldn't happen to know where any online information of the Ermine
Street Guard might be aquired? I have long been interested in receating a
1st Century AD Roman Cavalryman, but have only recently started my research
efforts.
Hopefully if I aquire enough information I might actually start doing
something about it!
Valete,
Marcus Darius
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Piza |
| From: |
"Marcus Darius Ursus" <marcus_darius@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 31 May 2000 19:12:02 MDT |
|
Salvete Everyone!
Just my little comment on the subject, but I must say that we are living in
a great time period (next to that of the Glory of Rome) when the secrets of
Rome that have been lost for 2 millennia are finally being found.
First the Maryport find, now the ships near Piza... Incredible!
Valete,
Marcus Darius
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| Subject: |
Ships of PISA [was Re: [novaroma] Piza] |
| From: |
Razenna <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 31 May 2000 18:12:17 -0700 |
|
Yes, the city is P I S A .
That will come in handy doing a web search. [grin]
Here is the site link for "the Roman Ships of Pisa"
http://www.navipisa.it/e-index.htm
Here is a site on Roman shipping, the Pisa ships are included in the
site.
http://index.waterland.net/navis/Themes/Commercio/CommerceEnglish.htm
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.
Sepia Senex
----------------------------------------
"Fair winds and following seas."
M. Minucius Audens 2753 a.u.c.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] De Equitatione (Was Re:Gladiator) |
| From: |
Razenna <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 31 May 2000 18:27:46 -0700 |
|
Here are some links:
Google search for ESG:
http://www.google.com/search?q=ermine+street+guard&meta=lr%3D%26hl%3Den
and some from that search:
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/
here's some pictures of the horsey boys [though I've heard they have
some fem re-enactors]:
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/newpage11.htm
I'll conclude with this page of images:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rod_Sayers/imagesof.htm
Bene vale.
C. Aelius Ericius.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Piza |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:21:46 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/31/2000 6:13:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
marcus_darius@-------- writes:
<< First the Maryport find, now the ships near Piza... Incredible! >>
That's Pisa, but I agree with you. Propitious omens.
QFM
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] RE: Re: De Equitatione (Was Re:Gladiator) |
| From: |
Andy Pearson <andy.pearson@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:31:37 +0100 |
|
Salvete, omnes!
Frater meus scripsit:
>Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:51:04 EDT
> From: DTibbe2926@--------
>Subject:
>Excellent post on the cavalry, Vado.
>Anyone living in, or visiting, Britannia and that hasn't seen >them should
get
>along to an Ermine Street Guard display to see the two >cavalrymen that
parade
>with them. Watching a fully armed and shielded legionary >being pushed
about
>by a cavalryman in a one-on-one situation gives an >appreciation of just
how
>effective cavalry can be. (My apologies to other groups that >also use
cavalry
>in their displays. I've only seen the ESG ones.)
>My main thought on the battle in Gladiator was 'where were >the auxilia?'
We
>saw a few Hamian archers but none other. Were the rest of 'em >still at the
>beer tent?
>Severus
Duty demands that I shamelessly plug my own unit!
Yes, I've seen the ESG display too, and as Severus says, you feel sorry for
the PBI. Legio Secunda Augusta (also in Britannia) also has cavalry
(sometimes), though we haven't yet resorted to live target practice. Unless
the horses are well trained/controlled, getting them to gallop within a
spatha's length of anyone carrying a scutum or wearing a helmet crest seems
next to impossible. Does make you wonder if it would be possible for cavalry
to break into a formed body of legionaries.
The Legion's website is at:
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~harnold/Index.html
There is also a review of Gladiatior by our Primus Pilus (I haven't seen it
yet - waiting for the crowds to abate!).
in pace,
Vindex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Kalendas Iunii (June 1st) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:07:52 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action or
public business can take place.
This is the day of the Kalendas of Iunius, month of Iuno, month of the young
(iuuenes) in contrast to Maius. Today the Pontifices announce the Nonas from
the Curia Calabra. This morning, capite velato, I have invoked Iuno Covella
on the 5th day by saying the traditional formula:
"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella"
Today is the aniversary of of the Temple of Iuno Moneta (Iuno The Warner) on
the citadel ('Arx').
Failure to pay attention to the voice of Aius Locutius which came from a
sacred wood (His deification and dedication of an altar at the Via Nova was
later performed in order to expiate the fault), led to the invasion of Rome
by the Gauls in 390 BCE. It was Iuno Who by means of Her sacred geese saved
the Capitol and Rome from the assault of the Gauls, and as such She became
known as Moneta and her tample built on the Arx. During the dedication of
the temple, a prodigy takes place. A rain of rocks and the occurence of
night during day force the Senate to name a Dictator to fix the feasts and
suplications needed for expiation.
This is also the aniversary of the dedication of the Temple of Mars built in
388 BCE near the Porta Capena on the Via Appia.
This is also the aniversary of the Temple of the Tempestates (Storms)
dedicated in 259 BCE on the same neighbourhood. This temple was dedicated by
Lucius Cornelius Scipio for the delivery of the Roman fleet from a storm
near Corsica.
This day is also sacred to Carna. On this day prayers are offered to her for
the health of the liver, heart, and other internal organs. She receives on
this day offerings of bean-meal and bacon fat, which were thought to promote
bodily health and robustness.
The nature of Carna is somewhat mysterious. Ovid identifies Her with Cardea
(Hinge) companion of Ianus. He also tells the story of Crane, a nymph of the
grove of Helernus, Who offered a potion to infants and children for magical
protection against the terrors of screech-owl.
Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Re: De Equitatione (was Re: Gladiator) |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 05:39:03 PDT |
|
Salve, mi Urse!
To add to the valuable information already offered by Severus and Ericius on
1st C. CE Roman cavalry resources, I can also vouch for the integrity of the
Ala Legionis Secunda Augusta, whom I have had the pleasure of seeing and
meeting on sevaral occasions. Look up the Legio at:
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~harnold/Index.html
and e-mail them for further information about their Ala. They have, inter
alia, made a very nicely restored reconstruction of the famous(?) cavalry
tombstone of Longinus Sdapeze, duplicarius of the 1st Ala of Thracians,
found near Camulodunum (Colchester, Essex) and dateable to the early days of
the Claudian conquest of Britain.
If you would care to keep me informed of your researches, I shall take it as
a great kindness, and shall of course be delighted to do the same for you.
Bene vale,
Vado.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: De Equitatione |
| From: |
"Lucius" <vergil@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:35:06 -0400 |
|
Salvete,
Salvete, omnes!
Frater meus scripsit:
>Excellent post on the cavalry, Vado.
>Anyone living in, or visiting, Britannia and that hasn't seen them should
get along to an Ermine Street Guard display to see the two cavalrymen that
parade with them. Watching a fully armed and shielded legionary being pushed
about by a cavalryman in a one-on-one situation gives an appreciation of just
how effective cavalry can be. (My apologies to other groups that also use
cavalry in their displays. I've only seen the ESG ones.)
>My main thought on the battle in Gladiator was 'where were >the auxilia?'
We saw a few Hamian archers but none other. Were the rest of 'em >still at the
>beer tent?
>Severus
Duty demands that I shamelessly plug my own unit!
Yes, I've seen the ESG display too, and as Severus says, you feel sorry for
the PBI. Legio Secunda Augusta (also in Britannia) also has cavalry
(sometimes), though we haven't yet resorted to live target practice. Unless
the horses are well trained/controlled, getting them to gallop within a
spatha's length of anyone carrying a scutum or wearing a helmet crest seems
next to impossible. Does make you wonder if it would be possible for cavalry
to break into a formed body of legionaries.
The Legion's website is at:
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~harnold/Index.html
There is also a review of Gladiatior by our Primus Pilus (I haven't seen it
yet - waiting for the crowds to abate!).
in pace, Vindex
I have participated in many reenactment events where horses were present and they are invariably frightened by the appearance of us Romani, either in signally or in small groups just marching by.
Today most people rarely see horses in person; however, in the Roman world horses were common and certainly soldiers would be comfortable around them. A squad of well trained Cavalry would be something quite different from an individual horse as they are 'herd' animals, but would they be able to charge into a volley of pila or well trained legionari? I have been around horses since I was born and I know how easily they can be scared, shaking the scutum and yelling would give them pause.
Caesar tells us how he would form groups of Cavalry mixed with light armed infantry and set to rout much larger units enemy Cavalry. Cavalry was rarely used to charge infantry except in flank or rear and then usually when the issue was all but decided.
Scouting, harrying, and 'clean up' where what cavalry were good for.
For those interested there are a few books on Roman Cavalry.
"Training the Roman Cavalry, from Arrian's ARS TACTICA" by Ann Hyland
ISBN 0-86299-984-7
"EQUUS, the Horse in the Roman World" by Ann Hyland
ISBN 0-300-04770-3 (out of print, but worth looking for)
Valete, Lucius Equitius
"Duty demands that I shamelessly plug my own unit!" ;-)
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/index.html
Roman Days are here again,
The Roman folks can cheer again,
And practice with their spear again,
Roman Days are here again!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: De Equitatione |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:44:40 +0100 |
|
Salvete
As a roman orientalist and later-roman fan, I've an interest on heavy
armoured cavalry. I wonder what the effectiveness of long-lance-armed
cataphracts would be against 'normal' cavalry. Any ideas?
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Cataphracts (was De Equitatione) |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:03:39 US/Central |
|
Salve Antoni Grylle.
> As a roman orientalist and later-roman fan, I've an interest on heavy
> armoured cavalry. I wonder what the effectiveness of long-lance-armed
> cataphracts would be against 'normal' cavalry. Any ideas?
It's my understanding that cataphracts fared pretty poorly against lighter
horse. Since the cataphracts' heavy armor kept them from being able to
maneuver, and since their lances were really only effective against an opponent
to their front, they were extremely vulnerable to being flanked by more nimble
combatants.
Vale,
T Labienus Fortunatus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Cataphracts (was De Equitatione) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:08:11 +0100 |
|
Salve
>It's my understanding that cataphracts fared pretty poorly against lighter
>horse. Since the cataphracts' heavy armor kept them from being able to
>maneuver, and since their lances were really only effective against an
opponent
>to their front, they were extremely vulnerable to being flanked by more
nimble
>combatants.
Unless lighter horse was used to protect the flanks...
What about cataphract vs foot?
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Classic Period Judaism |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:27:42 -0000 |
|
Salvete civis, salve Sulla
Today I received a copy of Archaeology Odyssey and was reminded of a
chat I had had with Sulla. One of the most interesting topics in
recent archaeology has been different forms of Judaism. Modern
Judaism is primarily derived from rabbinical traditions of only one
form of Judaism present in Judea/Palestine during the roman period.
That is, it has been the accepted view that only one form of Judaism
survived the Roman reaction to the Jewish Revolts. Until recently.
Josephus described three forms of Judaism. But we do not know how
broadly he was speaking, and whether there could be several
subdivisions to the three he offers. The Dead Sea Scrolls has shed
some light, but has really only increased the speculation of more
diversity than has ever been previously considered. Then too it is
unlikely that Josephus would have recognized some forms of Judaism.
Samaritans for example would be a group who Romans would have
considered as Jews, and in the municiples of the Empire were others
that would unlikely be considered Jews by some of those living in
Jerusalem at the time.
In Archaeology Odyssey, Sept/Oct 1999 issue, there is a brief article
of a discovery of a non-rabbinical community near the Dead Sea whose
presence is recorded in the remains of a cemetary that date from the
4th-6th centuries CE. It is known that they were non-rabbinical
because of they calendar employed. Some discussion on calendrical
difference can be found in papers on the Dead Sea scrolls.
Incidently, in that same issue on the following page, there appears
an article on a Roman sarcophagus discovered in London.
The website is www.archaeologyodyssey.org.
The current webpage also has articles that may interest some in NR.
Archaeology Odyssey is an American magazine geared more towards the
general public, focusing primarily on the Mediterranean.
Valete
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Cataphracts (was De Equitatione) |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:50:46 US/Central |
|
Salve Antoni Grylle.
> >It's my understanding that cataphracts fared pretty poorly against lighter
> >horse. Since the cataphracts' heavy armor kept them from being able to
>
> Unless lighter horse was used to protect the flanks...
It's my understanding that that was, in fact, the practice.
> What about cataphract vs foot?
I don't recall offhand having read any accounts of such, so this is purely
speculation on my part. I would think that they'd be extremely effective at
breaking a line, but rather poor on following up on the advantage. Once their
charge was spent, they'd take a long time to reform and they'd have a hard time
disengaging if they didn't manage to run completely through to the other side.
So, once again, they'd have to rely on other more nimble troops to support them.
Vale,
T Labienus Fortunatus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] De Equitatione (Was Re:Gladiator) |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:27:00 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/31/2000 5:51:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
DTibbe2926@-------- writes:
<< Were the rest of 'em still at the
beer tent? >>
How did you know? We had so many drunken Germans, Gauls, Illyrians, and
Spanish, that they were useless. The Roman cohortes growled "To Hades with
auxilia, we will finish the job ourselves!"
QFM
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Resignation Rules - governmental, boring, feel free to skip it |
| From: |
"RMerullo" <rmerullo@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:30:47 -0400 |
|
Salvete Marce Apolloni et alii
Let me start this long, boring post by saying something that is, I hope,
obvious: this is not an edictum but a statement in the forum, part of a
dialog to try to arrive at a reasonable consensus about resignations of NR
citizenship and their implications. I, like other people, have opinions.
The fact that I have been elected to the office of censor does not make my
opinion law, and in fact my opinion is only as authoritative as my
colleague's. And even our joint edicta would only be set in stone until the
Senate or an assembly of the People decides that they should be erased or
re-written.
So I ask anyone who reads this not to jump to any conclusion about NR policy
based on anything that I state herein.
>
>As far as returns, I do not see the necessity of putting unnecessary
>obstacles in front of anyone having the persistent love for Nova Roma
>which prompts them to come back. Quite possibly after making fools of
>themselves in some cases at the time of leaving, and be "eating their
>words" in coming back.
This is probably the way that I would look upon the matter, were it not for
some behavior of some self-exiles that I have witnessed, and the impact that
resignations tend to have. I don't consider people who resign fools, or
hold resignation against anyone. As deciding to join NR is serious, there
can be serious and legitimate reasons that belonging here no longer is in
someone's interests. We are all free to make our own decisions in this
important matter. In order to make informed decisions, we need to have a
uniform definition of resignation.
As you have probably read or heard more than once, one of the founders of
this Republic resigned. When he came back, some people were ecstatic,
others skeptical, and much heated debate ensued. The other founder said:
"Obviously, Germanicus' reasons for leaving Nova Roma were completely
unique... certainly he did not leave us on a whim, nor is he trying to
return frivolously. If Germanicus IS reinstated, there will certainly be a
ruling that this will be the last time such a thing will be allowed.
Certainly every Citizen deserves at least one chance if they should make an
error! "
So, even in those early days, there was concern about the REASONS for
leaving and wishing to return, and about putting a LIMIT on returns.
I have no doubt that someone will say that the above case was special,
because the person who resigned was a senator and founder, and the context
of the quote concerned not only return to citizenship but return to the
Senate. True, but in my eyes every admission of citizenship and every
resignation are special, because every Nova Roman is special. I would say
that the concerns voiced in the above quote of the co-founder are valid
concerns today that remain inadequately addressed with respect to
resignations in general.
>
> I think, therefore, that anyone who has sent himself into exile, as
>it were, should simply be allowed to come back.
Again, I would probably agree with you if I hadn't witnessed revolving-door
resignations and returns, slander and verbal attacks from self-exiles. But
I have seen these things and know further that resignations in our context
can present a special set of burdensome challenges. The ideal solution is
of course to make citizenship in Nova Roma rewarding for everyone all the
time, and prevent magistrates from suffering burn-out. I'll do my best to
make these conditions real, as I'm sure you will too. But I have no idea
whether our efforts will
- deter resignations
- result in a common understanding of resignation and its implications
I maintain that people must understand the gravity of resignation. Exile
is, by default, forever, and resignation is self-exile. If I am wrong in
those assumptions, then we need a formal contrary definition, like
"resignation, even of citizenship, means only that you can't hold office for
a year, you can come back anytime thereafter without applying" or something
in that vein. Even such a limited definition of resignation, though I would
disagree with it and think that it wouldn't help us much, would be of some
utility at least, in that we all would understand our rights and
obligations, if any, regarding resignation. Right now it is, outside of the
nundina cool-off, a question mark.
Whether his gens would
>accept him back is a matter for his gens.
Certainly, yes.
Simply returning should be
>seen as a form of apology in and of itself for any unkind words said
>about Nova Roma and Her people, but no doubt anyone motivated to return
>might volunarily wish to say more.
I'm not proposing mandating an apology. What does make sense to me is that
a person returning should coherently explain to a censor why he/she left,
and why he/she wants to return. It is not an apology but an explanation.
Apologies are matters of personal choice that have nothing to do with edicta
or other forms of law.
>
> If anyone resigns twice from citizenship, I think that his new
>return, if any, should be at the discretion of the Censors and not
>automatic.
No return after the initial "cooling off" period will be automatic, at
least, until there is some law that forces censores to act automatically in
these cases. An application to citizenship is not automatically granted;
theoretically, someone could submit an application with the comment "I think
that Rome was really unimportant in history, and I'm just submitting this
application because I have nothing else to do this afternoon".
However, even then the Censors should mainly just be
>concerned with the question "Would Nova Roma take harm from this
>person's return?"
A censor will best be able to answer that question, I think, if the
returning citizen explains his/her reasons for leaving and returning. I
hate to say it, but there is actually another question that the censor
should ask: "Is Nova Roma likely to be of benefit or harm to this person?"
If a person's involvement in NR takes the form of paranoid political
fighting, which unfortunately has happened, and the paranoia has been severe
enough to be deleterious to the person, then a censor should consider
rejecting an application to return to protect not the Republic so much as
the person applying to return.
>
> People who want to come back are not a problem, really, and should
>not be treated punitively.
People who leave, slander, come back, leave, slander et cetera can be
disruptive and create a plausible deterrent to interest in the micronation
on the part of prospective citizens and others, and frankly a painful
nuisance to those citizens who wish to remain citizens. We don't need to
cater to these revolving door games; whether you decide to view a refusal
to play for their amusement, or to satisfy their ill urges, "punitive
treatment" is a matter for you to decide.
They should feel that we *want* to welcome
>them back. After all, don't we?
Again, many of us have reached out to people who had resigned. I am glad
when people recognize that they resigned in haste and come back. People who
return this way seem to come back with a higher level of enthusiasm than
before their resignation (I won't name names, but people have returned from
self-exile and literally saved the Republic -- we wouldn't have any Nova
Roma at all without them). But this phenomenon doesn't make resignations
"OK", it doesn't erase the problems that resignations engender. And it
doesn't mean that we should encourage resignations by pretending that they
have little or no impact.
I believe that to follow your reasoning on this matter would mean to
maintain the status quo, under which noone really knows what resignation
means, and some perhaps believe that they can keep coming and going. We can
certainly continue this way, but don't be surprised if we continue to see a
small minority of people coming, going, coming et cetera, and some other
people feeling burned out and abandoning their posts, believing that it's
best just to take a vacation from citizenship for a year, then come back et
cetera ("Why not? So-and-so has already resigned and come back twice,
what's the big deal if I do it once?"). It isn't so, and I think that we
can do better than that.
>
>M. Apollonius Formosanus
>
I have also heard back on my proposed requirement to adopt a new name when
returning from self-imposed exile. I would like to point out that exiles,
including people who have resigned and those whose citizenship has been
revoked, have generally (though not exclusively) been referred to by
senators and others by their birth names or names recognized by their
macronations, rather than by their Roman names. A name is a personal thing,
and no state, as far as I know, can really give or take them. States do,
however, recognize names, as anyone with a drivers license, military
identification or the like knows.
Some people have stated that depriving someone of their Roman name (almost
analogous, I suppose, to revoking his/her license to drive about the
forum -- it would never amount to robbing someone of their identity, since
we own our identities for life rather than receive them on loan from any
state and there's no way or reason to try to enforce what sig's people put
under their messages) would be Draconian. I find their arguments persuasive
and am leaning currently toward the idea put forth by Fortunatus, that the
returning exile can claim his/her old name if he/she wants to claim it, as
long as no other NR citizen has been admitted under that name during the
exile.
Again, though, this is all discussion, so if anyone has more to add or sees
a reason that I am incorrect in my line of reasoning here, I ask for further
comments.
Valete
C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: De Equitatione |
| From: |
DTibbe2926@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:48:01 EDT |
|
In a message dated 01/06/00 15:34:42 GMT Daylight Time, vergil@--------
writes:
<< I have participated in many reenactment events where horses were present
and they are invariably frightened by the appearance of us Romani, either in
signally or in small groups just marching by.
Today most people rarely see horses in person; however, in the Roman world
horses were common and certainly soldiers would be comfortable around them. A
squad of well trained Cavalry would be something quite different from an
individual horse as they are 'herd' animals, but would they be able to charge
into a volley of pila or well trained legionari? I have been around horses
since I was born and I know how easily they can be scared, shaking the scutum
and yelling would give them pause.
Caesar tells us how he would form groups of Cavalry mixed with light armed
infantry and set to rout much larger units enemy Cavalry. Cavalry was rarely
used to charge infantry except in flank or rear and then usually when the
issue was all but decided.
Scouting, harrying, and 'clean up' where what cavalry were good for. >>
I would never advocate using cavalry as an attacking force on its own. As has
been show through history, even the heaviest cavalry cannot break a
disciplined body of armed men (unless they're French!). A small
reconstruction of the 'antiequus' will show how formidable a defence that
manouevre was. Cavalry would have been even more vulnerable to a volley of
pila than infantry.
But there must have been more to having cavalry than just the three things
you list at the end. Again, as history has shown us, get cavalry in amongst
infantry and they cause havoc and demoralise infantry so they must have been
more an integral part of military strategy than we give them credit for.
You do raise another point. You say today's horses are easily spooked just by
waving your scutum at them. Would horses back then be trained to the sound of
battle, much like police horses are trained for riot control?
Severus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Classic Period Judaism |
| From: |
"RMerullo" <rmerullo@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:04:56 -0400 |
|
Salvete Piscine et alii
Thank you for that very informative post.
Valete
-----Original Message-----
From: Piscinus@-------- <Piscinus@-------->
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:20 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Classic Period Judaism
>
>Today I received a copy of Archaeology Odyssey and was reminded of a
>chat I had had with Sulla. One of the most interesting topics in
>recent archaeology has been different forms of Judaism. Modern
>Judaism is primarily derived from rabbinical traditions of only one
>form of Judaism present in Judea/Palestine during the roman period.
>That is, it has been the accepted view that only one form of Judaism
>survived the Roman reaction to the Jewish Revolts. Until recently.
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: De Equitatione |
| From: |
dean6886@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:10:59 -0500 (CDT) |
|
It may be true that most people rarely see horses in person
throughout much of the world, but that is not the case here in
Nottheastern Wisconsin. Fifteen years ago there weren't nearly as many
horses around here as I see today. With the disintergration of
traditional family farming, hobby farming for families ( a few horses,
some geese,and maybe a small chicken coupe) has become a growing trend.
It often seems that I see more horses than cows when I go for a drive in
the country in some counties.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Gladiator (quid - etiam iterum?) |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:16:34 +0100 |
|
Salutem!
Bene - we went to see this gladiator fellow Maximus last night, at the little theatrum outside Clausentum.
I confess I was disappointed at first - we had to pay! Imagine! When I demanded my Propraetor's double seat, in the middle of the row reserved for the Decemviri and the Augustales, and two more double seats for my wife Aletheia Moravia and our good friend Caecilia Leporaria, they laughed!
About three seconds into the film, I started laughing too. You know, when the onscreen text says something like: "When the Roman Empre was at the full height of its power, it reached as far as the North of England..."). Then I knew we were in for a good time, and settled down to be entertained, rather than educated.
True, one could pick endlessly at the myriad inaccuracies (Lucilla's outfits were really fun), but it did have its moments - like during the first show in that little provincial fleapit theatre, when that big handsome German (Barcas, was it?) picked up a retiarius and impaled him bodily on the stakes. I would have been on my feet and applauding, if not for Aletheia's iron grip (I won't say where).
And, seriously, that bright light and a poplar-lined road behind the door... the only way home... one's true and only home... that actually had me by the throat for a little while.
Bene valete,
Vado.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Archaic Italy |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:46:02 -0000 |
|
Salvete Quirites
In response to some inquiries I have had about Archaic Italy and the
Italic tribes I offer the following as a starting point for future
inquiries.
By Archaic Italy, as used incorrectly here, I refer to a very broad
time span, from the beginning of the Neolithic in Italy to the
founding of Rome. The reason for this is to keep this simple, and
recommend various sources to accomodate the different levels of
knowledge of the subject to the members of Nova Roma.
The only area I feel a need to address here is why this subject might
be of interest to others in Nova Roma. Around nine thousand years ago
in the southeastern region of Apulia there first arrived the
Neolithic to the shores of Italy from the Balkans. This "Old
European", Neolithic culture is described in the works of M.Gimbutas.
This region is the oldest and eastern-most area of the Megalithic
culture which spread along the seacoasts of Italy, Spain, Portugal,
France, to northern Germany, Denmark and Sweden,as wel as the western
coast of England, Wales, Ireland, and much of Scotland. The most
famous sites of these cultural complexes are to be found in Malta and
of course at Stonhenge. The Neolithic spread across Italy along the
shores, moving the previous gathering cultures into the Apennines, a
patern that was to repeat itself successively. There are a whole
series of Neolithic and later cultures that developed and spread
across Italy. By the time of the Bronze Age, when the first Italic
tribes begin to move into Italy, the entire peninsula contains a
homogeneous culture, with several small communities of long-houses,
which seem to have been concentrated in the Gran Sasso region of
central Italy.
The Italic tribes do not begin to enter Italy until around 1200 bce,
or about the same time as the fall of Troy and when many other
Mediterrenean cultures begin to disappear. The question then might
be asked why a group such as Nova Rome, that focuses on Rome, would
be interested in the archaic non-Italian inhabitants of the Bronze
Age? At the following website may be the answer:
www.geocities.com/Athens/2996/sword.html
Here is an article that connects a modern day ritual, performed each
year by the Spandonari at Giaglione, which resembles depictions in
the rock art of Val Camonica. It begins the question of continuity in
Italian traditions that might extend back into the Neolithic. It
would be seriously wrong to extend backward in time and try to
directly link any modern rite, or even any Roman rite, to some notion
of a specific Neolithic origin. But a consideration of the Italian
Neolithic and Bronze Age does provide an insight into the milieu in
which the earliest Italic tribes entered the Italian peninsula, and
then later, during the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron
Age. The Italian Villanova culture is an Iron Age culture, which
practised cremation and burial in terracotta pottery. The argument
is still raging over the connection of the Villanovans to the origins
of the Etruscans. There is also some discussion on the relation of
the Villanovans to at least one of the originating groups to be found
in the area of Rome.
Some Nova Romans have indicated to me that they accept the myth of a
Trojan origin for Rome, and a Greek origin for a particular Oscan
tribe, and then also a foreign origin for the Etruscan as well. I
feel one really needs to look at the evidence for indigenous
developments before making such statements.
For an overview of the origin of Rome and some of its institutions,
with a brief discussion of Archaic Italy, try "The Beginnings of
Rome" by T.J.Cornell to start with. For websites on Archaic Italy:
The University of Sydney, Australia, has a series of lectures on pre-
Roman Italy, starting in the Neolithic, beginning with the first
lecture at www.archaeology.usyd.edu.au/arc133001/lecture_01.html
This is an introductory type of site.
Another introductory level website specifically on the Italic tribes
during Early Rome is at
www.voicenet.com/~mimir/Ancient_Italy.html
There are several webpages for specific archaeology sites, such as
the U. of Texas site for Capo Alfiere, near Crotone, at
www.utexas.edu/research/ica/mortex/CAweb.html
The best such websites are of course in Italian:
www.area.fi.cnr.it/area/sesto/arch1.htm for the Neolithic in Tuscany,
There is another website for the Tuscan Neolithic, in English, at
dns.unife.it/notes/eprime.htm and there are several similar Italian
websites (that are in English)for various parts of the country.
www.atlante.clio.it/grecia/percorsi.html for sites in Apulia from the
Neolithic through Rome, with an interesting part on the Roman road
system in this provence. This site is in Italian but has much to
offer as an introduction for the area even to English speaking cives.
www.crs4.it/prj/MUSEARCH/museo/testi/neol_antica.html for the
Neolithic in all of Italy, or for a site on the dolmens and menhirs :
www.dio.it/sr/ain/I5/I5.html. Both in Italian.
For more technical information begin with such websites:
www.med.abaco-mac.it/articles/doc/005.htm for Apulian Bronze Age
pottery with evidence of Vesuvius prytoplastic temper, or
www.med.abaco-mac.it/articles/doc/003.htm on the technical data
behind the U. of Sydney's lecture 03 on Neolithic trade patterns. It
is through the study of trade patterns in obsidian and pottery wares
and metallury products that we can gain some idea of where and when
Greek influence upon Rome enters. The Neolithic trade patterns offer
an insight of underlying trade patterns, and shifts in such patterns,
to give some context to the whole discussion.
Valete
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] New e-mail adress!!!!!! |
| From: |
thomas.h@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:58:55 +0200 |
|
Please take note of the fact that I, Tiberius Annaeus Otho have had some
very complicated changes made to my computer settings. Therefore I was
not able to take part in the last election and voting, which I hereby
declare will hopefully not happen again!! Due to these changes, my
e-mail adress has also changed. It is no longer haenzi-laible@--------
but all my personal mail will now have to be adressed to
thomas.h@--------
Please make this change also in the list of active gens, where the old
adress is still listed. Please notify me if the change has been made.
Thank you, Tiberius Annaeus Otho
--
E-mail for everyone! http://www.bluemail.ch/ powered by the blue window
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem VI Kalendas Iunii (May 27th) |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:59:09 +0100 |
|
Salutem!
Inquit Piscinus:
> The Dea Dia is of special interest to me. The Hymn of the Arval
> Brethren, carved in stone, I have found in several sources. But along
with
> this there is mention of the Arval Brethren's organizational records, also
> carved in stone. I have not found any description of what they contain,
and
> certainly have not found any transcropt of them. Would you have a
suggestion
> as to where I would find such information?
- Lewis, N. & Reinhold, M (Eds.): 'Roman Civilization Volume 2 Selected
Readings: The Empire'
(3rd Edn.) Columbia University Press 1990, pp. 516-519.
Hope that helps. All extracts are from the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum
(16 vols) Berlin 1862.
Bene vale,
Vado.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Classic Period Judaism |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:05:25 -0700 |
|
Thanks for this post. :) Its really interesting. I wonder if we can get
back dates of Archeology Odyssey. :)
SF
Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> Salvete civis, salve Sulla
>
> Today I received a copy of Archaeology Odyssey and was reminded of a
> chat I had had with Sulla. One of the most interesting topics in
> recent archaeology has been different forms of Judaism. Modern
> Judaism is primarily derived from rabbinical traditions of only one
> form of Judaism present in Judea/Palestine during the roman period.
> That is, it has been the accepted view that only one form of Judaism
> survived the Roman reaction to the Jewish Revolts. Until recently.
>
> Josephus described three forms of Judaism. But we do not know how
> broadly he was speaking, and whether there could be several
> subdivisions to the three he offers. The Dead Sea Scrolls has shed
> some light, but has really only increased the speculation of more
> diversity than has ever been previously considered. Then too it is
> unlikely that Josephus would have recognized some forms of Judaism.
> Samaritans for example would be a group who Romans would have
> considered as Jews, and in the municiples of the Empire were others
> that would unlikely be considered Jews by some of those living in
> Jerusalem at the time.
>
> In Archaeology Odyssey, Sept/Oct 1999 issue, there is a brief article
> of a discovery of a non-rabbinical community near the Dead Sea whose
> presence is recorded in the remains of a cemetary that date from the
> 4th-6th centuries CE. It is known that they were non-rabbinical
> because of they calendar employed. Some discussion on calendrical
> difference can be found in papers on the Dead Sea scrolls.
>
> Incidently, in that same issue on the following page, there appears
> an article on a Roman sarcophagus discovered in London.
> The website is www.archaeologyodyssey.org.
> The current webpage also has articles that may interest some in NR.
> Archaeology Odyssey is an American magazine geared more towards the
> general public, focusing primarily on the Mediterranean.
>
> Valete
> Gn. Hernicius Piscinus
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Imperial cult: How can you find it impure? |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:02:07 +0100 |
|
Salvete amici:
Sic Graecus:
>In the western provinces almost every home had a
> shrine or statues devoted to Roma and the Genius.
What are your sources for this remarkable assertion, please?
Pace deorum,
Vado.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Imperial cult: How can you find it impure? |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:12:43 +0100 |
|
Salve
>>In the western provinces almost every home had a
>> shrine or statues devoted to Roma and the Genius.
>
>What are your sources for this remarkable assertion, please?
"Roman Portugal" by J. Alarcao. I will bring more detailed info tomorrow.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] War elephants(was Theological Correctness) |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:07:03 +0100 |
|
Well, along with the Oxymoron, there's the Thesaurus ;-)
Vado.
> I never knew there had been an "Atlas elephant". Thanks for bringing
> that up.
> I just went down to the Milwaukee zoo a few days ago by chance and got a
> couple of snapshots of African elephants.
>
> Here's a question. What other types of animals were written about
> from Roman antiquity that are now extinct? Severely endangered
> especially around Rome or within Italy today?
>
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] De Equitatione (Was Re:Gladiator) |
| From: |
DTibbe2926@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:43:44 EDT |
|
In a message dated 01/06/00 18:28:20 GMT Daylight Time, sfp55@-------- writes:
Severus << << Were the rest of 'em still at the beer tent? >>
QFM << How did you know? We had so many drunken Germans, Gauls, Illyrians,
and Spanish, that they were useless. >>
It was the most obvious answer from experience on the re-enactors circuit.
Lack of beer after a display can cause mutiny!
C'mon, you re-enactors out there, you know what I mean. Those hours after the
event when the world goes blurred and you start showing any fool who is still
unwise enough to be about what the Romans DIDN'T wear under their tunics.
Severus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation Rules - governmental, boring, feel free to ski... |
| From: |
RexMarcius@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:18:46 EDT |
|
Salve Censor !
Your post may have been long but it was certainly not boring. I find a lot of
well pondered arguments in it that are proof of how worthy a Censor we have
elected.
To relinquish a citizenship is certainly the gravest action for a citizen
possible in NR and everything concerning the procedure around it should
certainly not be treated lightly.
>From a legal point of view, it seems that we only have the constitution
giving rules concerning the removal of citizenship.
"A.II.4. Citizenship may be involuntarily revoked by those means that shall
be established by law, or may be voluntarily relinquished by notification of
the censors or by public statement before three or more witnesses."
While involuntary removal of citizenship obviously requires a formal
procedure (which according to III.B.3 has its final forum in the comitia
centuriata), no such thing is required if you want to leave Nova Roma out of
your own free will. Resignation is therefore a one-sided act, which - for
obvious reasons of legal certainty - needs to be well documented so that
everyone knows about this gravest step a citizen can take (hence the
necessity to either officially inform the censor or to have "three or more
witnesses" -what ever that means in an internet environment).
To give a legal background to a "cooling-off period" and not to introduce a
system which is against the spirit of the constitution it would seem
appropriate to enact by law a way to ensure legal certainty while keeping the
voluntary nature of the action. IMHO this could be done by basically
requiring that a notice of resignation be posted in all public forums
(message board, main e-mail list) for a period of nine days. This could be
done by the citizen itself or by the censor who was informed of the
resignation notice. Within the period, this notice can be "removed" by the
citizen concerned. If it is not removed within this period a formal decision
of a censor should be published stating that the person concerned is no
longer a citizen; if anything went wrong during this procedure, the decision
could be challenged by a magistrate or the citizen concerned within a
reasonable time limit in the comitia centuriata.
For a later return of a former citizen, I agree with the censor's thoughts
about not making something like this automatic, but leaving it to the
censor's discretion, which he should always exercise in the best interests of
NR.
.
Marcus Marcius Rex
Propraetor Germaniae
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Latin position at Michigan |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:52:23 EDT |
|
Salvete!
Any schlors among us looking for a job?
Vale
QFM
June 1, 2000
Department of Classical Studies
University of Michigan
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] On Cataphracti equites (was Cataphracts) |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:13:56 EDT |
|
In a message dated 6/1/2000 8:53:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
labienus@-------- writes:
<< What about cataphract vs foot?
I don't recall offhand having read any accounts of such, so this is purely
speculation on my part. I would think that they'd be extremely effective at
breaking a line, but rather poor on following up on the advantage. >>
Sources on Roman and Palmyrene armored cavalry.
Vegetius says in Epitoma Rei Militaris 4th Cent AD (23. 2) that:
"Armored horses (Cataphracti equites) are safe from being wounded on account
of the armor they wear, but because they [the riders] are hampered by the
weight of their arms [they] are easily taken prisoner and often vulnerable to
lassos. (This must refer to the Huns and Alans, both who used lassos in
combat. They both were open formation horse, i.e., light cavalry.)
Armored cavalry are better in battle against loose-order infantry (referring
to auxilia who fought in loose order rather then shoulder to shoulder) than
against cavalry, but if posted in front of legionaries or mixed with
legionaries (that is a long side the legio line) they often break the enemy
line when it comes to comminus, that is, the hand-to-hand, fighting."
Zosimus speaking of the battle of Antioch in 272 AD
(I 50,3-4)
"The Emperor (Aurelian) perceiving that Zabdas (Zenobia's general) had
stationed armored cavalry before the Palmyrene army at Antioch, ordered his
Moorish, Dalmatian light horse to cross the Orontes, which flows on the North
side of the city, while he would cross the bulk of the army farther south.
The armored horse upon seeing the lighter armed opponents advancing, charged
at once, scattering the Romans.
However this was all part of the Emperor's plan, while the armored horse was
occupied chasing the Roman horse, he reformed his army on the Palmyrene left
flank, completing Zabdas ruin.
Meanwhile the heavier horse worn out by their fruitless pursuit of the
lighter, turned to save their disintegrating army. Seeing this the Roman
horse dashed to the attack, and attacking from the sides and rear utterly
defeated the armored horse."
(Zosimus goes on to mention how after Palmyrene was defeated
Aurelian adopted cataphracts into his army, this would mean they couldn't be
that useless.)
Ammianus Marcellinus in "Rerum Gestarum" on the
BATTLE OF STRASBOURG A.D. 357
16. 12. 34
"...our [armored] cavalry on the right unexpectedly gave way in disorder. The
first to flee; however blocked the path of those who followed, and when they
found themselves lap of the legions they halted and renewed the fight.
What caused this incident was that, while their ranks were being redressed,
the armored horse (cataphracti) saw their commander suddenly wounded and one
of their friends slipping over the neck of his horse, which sank under the
weight of his armor. They then began to shift each for himself, and finding
Germans suddenly in their midst, would have created total confusion by
trampling on the infantry; had not the latter, drawn up in close order,
shield to shield, held their ground."
(It would appear that the German infantry took the cataphracts by surprise,
got inside their formation and once the commander was hurt and others
starting the fall, the horse retreated away from the Germans. They smashed
into the legiones, but the latter halted them by locking shields, and forced
them to rally and face the Germans again.)
What can we infer from all this?
I. Cataphracts were slow, ponderous, not very maneuverable. (Much like 15-16
century armored cavalry.)
II. Their long lance (Contus) were useful is spearing loose order infantry
and they had their greatest success against those. They could hold their own
against similar heavy horse, but they had a problem against light horse,
since it could evade its charge, then envelop the cataphract's flanks.
III. If they could catch close order infantry in disorder they might win, but
against infantry expecting the charge they had little hope of success unless
supported by other infantry.
QFM
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