| Subject: |
[novaroma] Prepare to Receive Cavalry! [Was: Re: De Equitatione] |
| From: |
Razenna <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:11:59 -0700 |
|
Cavalry horse would be used to people (soldiers) doing soldier
things. War horse training has been specific for its own peculiar
periods. In the age of fire arms horses were desensitized to the
sound of gunfire. Horses are known to have panicked when they
encountered elephantry or camelry, unless they had been trained to
work with the other beasts. Just the same there are some constants
in the equine behavior. Horses will not charge into a bunch of pointy
things if they have the least bit of a say about it. A horse that
impaled itslef was a horse that did not see the pale. That is why
infantry formed squares in the Napoleonic wars. If I recall
correctly, a square that formed in time (didn't let any cavalry get
inside before they closed the door) was secure unless some horsemen
was able to get their mounts to leap the wall of the square. Of
course attrition from projectile weapons would also hurt the
formation. This is not a tactic that infantry learned recently. I do
not remember what Vegetius had to say on the matter, if anything, but
I'm sure the Roman legions knew how to prepare a welcome for overly
aggressive horse guys. In fact I remember something from a read
concerning M. Antonius's Parthian debacle that his men had to
continuously form the defensive formation against cavalry when the
Parthian horse attacked, then they would form for the march, and the
Parthians would attack again. Nuff said.
Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.
Lucius wrote:
> I have participated in many reenactment events where horses were
> present and they are invariably frightened by the appearance of us
> Romani, either in signally or in small groups just marching by.
> Today most people rarely see horses in person; however, in the Roman
> world horses were common and certainly soldiers would be comfortable
> around them. A squad of well trained Cavalry would be something
> quite different from an individual horse as they are 'herd' animals,
> but would they be able to charge into a volley of pila or well
> trained legionari? I have been around horses since I was born and I
> know how easily they can be scared, shaking the scutum and yelling
> would give them pause.
> Caesar tells us how he would form groups of Cavalry mixed with light
> armed infantry and set to rout much larger units enemy Cavalry.
> Cavalry was rarely used to charge infantry except in flank or rear
> and then usually when the issue was all but decided.
> Scouting, harrying, and 'clean up' where what cavalry were good for.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] GREAT LAKES PROVINCIA OF NOVA ROMA |
| From: |
dean6886@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:23:14 -0500 (CDT) |
|
http://community.webtv.net/dean6886/GREATLAKESPROVINCIA
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] GREAT LAKES PROVINCIA OF NOVA ROMA |
| From: |
dean6886@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:30:11 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Hope this small provincial websight that I just finished meets with
generalized approval. I would like to see this linked up with the
Provincial page asap.
As the senatorial votes are just finishing up on our new Curator
Sermo, I was hoping whoever is still in charge could link it up with the
main Nova Roma websight. Would that be Graecus, as I just can't seem to
remember for sure?
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] GREAT LAKES PROVINCIA OF NOVA ROMA |
| From: |
Razenna <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:35:16 -0700 |
|
Euge!
This looks good1 And very promising.
C. Aelius Ericius.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Album Gentium |
| From: |
Razenna <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:51:45 -0700 |
|
Salvete.
I'm posting this here because I know it will get to everybody and I do
not know exactly who would be the one to contact about the problem i
have noticed with my Gens listing on the website. I might want to
tell the Censores, or the Curatrix Sermo, or some assistant, so I'm
telling everybody and the correct people might find out and see if
there is a fix.
The patron deities for Gens Aelia are no longer listed on the Album
Gentium. When Cn. Tarquinius Caesar first changed that site over to
its current format the deities were left out. Then he put Them in
after i called the problem to his attention. I was checking the site
last night and saw that They were missing again. I found out that
this is also the case for Gens Equitia. It might be so for other
gentes that had them listed. I do know that with the old format many
more gentes had their patron deities listed than this format has ever
had. I am sure that whoever is the person with the fix-it, they will
have a lot to do with all their other responsibilities. This has been
before, I know it will get rectified eventually.
Bene valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.
Paterfamilias gens Aelia.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] late Senate announcements |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:23:19 EDT |
|
Salvete Omnes!
I have been under the impression that little of substance was happening
in our Senate recently. Wrong!
It has been brought to my attention that the Senate has moved their
deliberations to another address -- apparently when I was not looking. I
am not yet subscribed to the new Senate list.
Thanks to Consul Audens, I have the following to report (albeit
belatedly):
1. The individual known to us variously as Tacitus or Marconi has been
removed from the roll of citizens (several weeks ago, actually) after
having slipped in under false pretenses, having been already banished
previously.
2. The Senate has finished actively debating, and is now voting on, a NEW
version of an edict regarding gender issues. I do not yet have the
details of either the debate or the newly proposed edict. I will post
more information when I have access to it. Bear in mind that the Senate
cannot make laws (only the Comitiae can do that) but a decision of the
Senate (a "Senatus Consulta") outranks an edict from a magistrate.
Also, I understand that my missing colleague, Gn. Tarquinius Caesar, has
been contacted and has agreed to continue as Tribunus Plebis after all. I
still haven't heard from him, but apparently I am no longer a lone
Tribune. I do, however, remain an opinionated one -- especially toward
the bottom of my second Foster's.
An observation: this list, which is central to the life of the Republic,
has been much more civil recently and has also contained some fascinating
and important (IMHO) conversations and information. Perhaps we are
developing some sense of community (finally). Let us congratulate
ourselves and keep it up.
Valete,
Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis
quemadnoum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)
Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4bc - 65ad
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] late Senate announcements |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:28:36 EDT |
|
In a message dated 6/1/2000 9:25:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
LSergAust@-------- writes:
<< apparently when I was not looking. I
am not yet subscribed to the new Senate list. >>
Salvete!
I was informed that all people privary to Senate business had the new address.
What happened? This should be seen to at once.
Vale.
Q. Fabius Maximus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] late Senate announcements |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:43:12 EDT |
|
Salvete!
I as Consul apologize to the Tribune and to the Roman people. The Senate was
not attempting to conceal anything from you. It was an unfortunate mix-up.
Valete!
Q. Fabius Maximus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] late Senate announcements |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:48:13 EDT |
|
Salve
I have just now sent a "subscribe" request to
senatusromanus-subscribe@--------
Perhaps Murphy's Laws have struck again. "If you plan a thing so
carefully that nothing can go wrong, something will" or "foolproof plans
aren't." Or as JFK is reputed to have said "There's always one SOB
somewhere who didn't get the word!"
In the interim, perhaps someone who has been privy to the debate can
describe for the citizens what has been transpiring regarding the "gender
edict" issue?
Vale,
Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis
On 6/1/00 11:28 PM Quintus Fabius Maximus (sfp55@--------) wrote:
>In a message dated 6/1/2000 9:25:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>LSergAust@-------- writes:
>
><< apparently when I was not looking. I
> am not yet subscribed to the new Senate list. >>
>Salvete!
>I was informed that all people privary to Senate business had the new
>address.
>What happened? This should be seen to at once.
>Vale.
>Q. Fabius Maximus
sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
(I think some people in togas are plotting against me.)
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] FW: [RomanOutpost] Gentes: Idea for Project? |
| From: |
aurelianus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:29:46 -0700 |
|
Salvete amici!
The recent discussion about Nova Roman gentes on the main List
gave me a bit of a brainstorm:
We'd like to have some info about each gens that would help a
prospective Citizen with little or no background in Roman history
(other than enthusiasm!) select which gen(te)s he or she would
like to link up with, nonne?
I think the most useful single reference work I ever ran into
was a 'Biographical Dictionary of the Roman World'. This listed
just about every family anybody ever heard of, giving the names
and describing the achievements of the most prominent members
of each. It was a huge book, two volumes, each three inches
thick, and the info in double or triple columns (memory evades
my charge *again*--drat!); but it was also published near the
turn of the last century, and I haven't seen anything like it
in more recent times.
Well, I was thinking: Why not create something like that (albeit
on a much smaller scale) for Nova Roma? Each gens-name on the
Album Gentium could be made into a hyperlink; the links would
all go to a page giving a one- or two-paragraph description of
each family and who were its ancient 'ornaments'. So for the
Marii, pro exemplo,
we'd have (please, no historical nitpicking; I'm only showing
the proposed format, and do not vouch for the correctness of
the info used in my example):
Gens: Maria
Maybe an etymological note on the origin of the name:
e.g. "Marius, derived from Mars or Mamers; may also refer to
the Marsii."
When the gens flourished :
"A prominent plebeian family of the 2nd and 1st centuries BCE."
Leading members and summary of their achievements:
" -- Gaius Marius: served under Scipio Aemelianus; Propraetor
Hispaniae; seven times Consul; commander in the Jugurthine War;
and vanquisher of the Germanic Cimbri et Teutones. Acclaimed
as Third Founder of Rome.
" -- Sextus Marius: (possibly adopted) son of the above."
Perhaps a list of the Praenomina in use by each gens would also
alleviate some of the guesswork?
I could put this together myself, and scare up info for most
of the historical gentes which have been recreated in Nova Roma.
It wouldn't be anything elaborate; just a way to get the applicant
from "Which one do I pick?" to "Hmm, that name sounds cool..."
to "Hey, wait a minute--I've *heard* of that guy!!"
Does anyone think this might be a Useful Thing? Are there any
tweaks I could add that would make it even more so? Would the
Webmaster accept it, do you think, or should I maybe submit a
few short articles at a time to the Eagle--or maybe do both?
I'd like to at least make a beginning on this, and perhaps offer
it up to Nova Roma as a 'brideprice' of sorts to demonstrate
my good intentions should it become possible for me to reapply
for Citizenship. (If such does not become possible, I'll donate
it anyway when it's done, assuming the Webmaster or the Eagle
will accept articles from a non-Citizen; it's a gift, not a bribe.)
Any ideas?
In amicitia et fides,
-- L Marius Aurelianus (the Artist Once Known As Fimbria)
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] De Equitatione (Was Re:Gladiator) |
| From: |
"Doug Barr" <dhkbarr@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:30:01 -0700 |
|
> C'mon, you re-enactors out there, you know what I mean. Those hours after
the
> event when the world goes blurred and you start showing any fool who is
still
> unwise enough to be about what the Romans DIDN'T wear under their tunics.
Hmm. Not as much, um, adjustment from being Scottish as I'd first thought.
:o)
C. Albius Gadelicus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: De Equitatione |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:30:39 +0200 |
|
Salve, Antonius Gryllus
For my understandig, and according to various sources, the cataphracts were
usually used like Napoleons cuirassiers, being held in reserve and used to
launch a decisive strike to weak points on the enemy lines. So effectiveness
would be given in such case. They had to perform well, since units of
cataphracts rose from the time of Hadrian onwards and they were used until
the end of the empire.
The cataphracts are most found in the east, because they could be used
against Parthian and Sassanidian Clibanarii. Also, open country was
necessary. On the Northern Front against Germanic tribes, cataphracts were
unusal, but one unit is recorded on the rhine.
Against light cavalry, there were of course uneffective, so they must be
protected by light horse.
I write this without looking in my books, so if you are interested, I will
take a look for you. My information relies on Marcus Junkelmanns books "Die
Reiter Roms", vol. I-III. Ospreys Warrior Books (Late Roman Cavalrymen) are
also worth looking for as is M. Nicasies "Twilight of empire".
Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
PS. You are a later-roman fan, as I am. At this time I´m working on a
website-project about Diocletian and his army. If you have any information
about army formations (legions and auxilia) form this era, please contact
me. I think we can start an interesting conversation.
Antonio Grilo schrieb:
> Salvete
>
> As a roman orientalist and later-roman fan, I've an interest on heavy
> armoured cavalry. I wonder what the effectiveness of long-lance-armed
> cataphracts would be against 'normal' cavalry. Any ideas?
>
> Valete
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Imperial cult: How can you find it impure? |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:12:32 +0100 |
|
Salve Vado
>>>In the western provinces almost every home had a
>>> shrine or statues devoted to Roma and the Genius.
>>
>>What are your sources for this remarkable assertion, please?
You may be right. This type of artifact found on almost every city could
well belong to the public rather than the private cult. Many busts of
Imperial family members were found in villa, what could lead to the
conclusion that it was mainly the upper class that was more devoted to the
Emperors. Nevertheless, John Scheid says that recent studies on Roman
society agree that the support of the Imperial cult came from below rather
than from above, i.e. it was the people that in fact supported the cult of
the leader. He also provides as an hipothesis that the association of Godess
Roma to the Genius of the Emperor was a means introduced by Augustus to
divert the people from worshiping the Emperor while alive.
As to the private Imperial cult, it surely existed. Libations of are made in
homage to the Genius Augusti ("Long life to the Emperor, father of our
homeland!" - Petronius, Satiricon, 60, 7. ). A part of the meals was also
offered to the Genius Augusti.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] late Senate announcements |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:13:55 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Citizens of Nova Roma;
In the interim, until our Tribune L. Sergius Australicus is set up with
the new Senate Listing (an oversight that is being taken care of as we
speak) let me bring you up to date briefly:
The Senate has been called for deliberations and has been presented with
the following Agenda Items. For those of you who are new to Nova Roma,
these Agenda Items are presented to the Consuls for review from a
variety of sources within the government and the membership of Nova
Roma. They are reviewed for content, and when the Senate is called
after the auguries and holidays are fully considered, they are presented
to the Nova Roma Senate for a period of discussion 2-4 days depending on
the length of the agenda list, after which, the discussion / debate is
ended and the Senate is asked o cast thier votes for the Agenda Items.
In regard to this last Senate Call the Agenda List presented to the
Senate was as follows:
--Confirmation of the new List Mistress; Senator P. Cassia;
--Removal of one of three Senate Lists in use in the Senate;
--Proposed Standards for Praetores and Provinciae;
--A proposal to Determine Nova Roma's Policy to other nations;
--Confirming the proposed Outreach Sodalitas;
--Approval of a proposed Nova Roma Expense Procedure Form;
--Approval of a proposd Budgetary Procedure for the Provinciae;
--Vote of Confidence for the "Gender Edict."
The discussion and debating period has now ended, and the vote has been
called for. Most of the voting has at this time been completed. A
final tabulation of the Senate Voting Results will be provided to you
when that tabulation is complete.
Again for those of you who are new to Nova Roma, Agenda Items are voted
upon as presented. If a concurrence cannot be reached within the Senate
(indicated by a vote of the Senators) then the Agenda Item will be
rejected. This does not necessarily mean that the Item is totally
unsatisfactory. It simply may mean that the item must be reviewed with
attention to a given portion as indicated by the comments of the
Senators included with thier votes. As the Senior Consul has explained
previously, this is the way that the Roman Republican Senate carried out
its businees, the only difference being that it met more frequently than
the Nova Roma Senate normally does.
Many of you have wondered why we in the government do not put more
before the Senate and do it faster, but you must consider the auguries
and the holidays that impact on possible Senate deliberations within
Nova Roma. It should also be considered that "ideas" placed before the
government for action must be wriitten up into a form of Consulta,
discussed and debated on a forum of lesser import than the Senate (but
necessary all the same), and presented at a Senate Call. The above list
of Agenda Items reflects the combined work of two Consular Staff groups
and the efforts of the other elected Magistrates and thier Assistants
over a three month period. The majority of these Agenda Items are also
outside the normal main stream of government business and political
response. Considering the above comments , while I am sure there are
those of you out there in the NR Membership who could do the job better,
until you enter the lists to be elected or appointed and given your
task, that fact can never be more than a presumption.
Also on the Agenda List for preliminary discussion was the three
applications for new Praetores and their Provinciae. Since there was a
proposal for Praetores / Provinciciae Standards, on the agenda which
needed to be voted on first, these three applications will be presented
to the Senate on the next Senate Call. The next Senate Call should be
near the end of the month of June depending upon a holiday clear period
and favorable auguries. Just missing the Senate Agenda deadline were
also proposals for a new Sodalitas (Latinus) and an expanded Sodalitas
(Military). These proposals will also be presented at the next Senate
Call.
I apologize for the lateness of this information, as the problem was
just realized yesterday. Steps have been taken to rectify the error,
Tribune L. Sergius Australicus should be back with us shortly. Tribune
T. Caesar has retained his role as Tribune, bur personal considerations
have forced him to give up his task as Nova Roma Webmaster. Senator and
Pontiff Graecus has graciously accepted that his temporary position as
Webmaster, be made a permanent one, and he has our profound thanks for
that acceptance.
The situation in the case of the gentleman known previously as Tacitus
Magnus has been reviewed by the Senate, and his former expulsion from
Nova Roma has been upheld. He has been removed from Onelist
participation and from the Nova Roma Membership roles.
I echo the sentiments of the Senior Consul, and again I join with him in
apologizing for the delay in this information.
Valete, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Dies Natalis Patrisfamilias Gentis Gryllae |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:00:35 +0100 |
|
Salvete
Today is my birthday. May my Genius give me the health required to continue
ejoying the company of my dear wife Susana, the other members of my family,
of my friends, as well as help me in my work both in the public affairs of
Nova Roma and in my profession. May the Lares, Manes and Penates allow Gens
Grylla to increase, both in number and (especially) in quality.
Precisely today, I have received my new books on the Religio Romana, a fact
that I must interpret as a good omen, although my cold would make me think
twice:
-[Claude Moatti, ed.] La memoire perdue. Recherches sur l'administration
romaine (Collection de l'Ecole Francaise de Rome 243, 1998). Pp. 427.
ISSN 0223-5099; ISBN 2-7283-0393-2.
-Scheid, John. Romulus et set freres: Les college des freres Arvales,
modele du culte public dans la Rome des empereurs. Bibliotheque des ecoles
francaises d'Athenes et de Rome, 275. Rome: Ecole francaise de Rome,
1990.
The first contains articles about the documents of the different Collegia of
priests.
For those interested on the Imperial cult, the second book has the calendar
with the birthdays of the Emperors for several years recorded on the
Comentarii Fratrum Arvalium (log of the Arval Brothers). For those not
interested at all in the Emperors, well, the book also contains many
traditional facts about the Fratres Arvales, which also apply for the
Republican period.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Paterfamilias Gentis Gryllae
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Dies Natalis Patrisfamilias Gentis Gryllae |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:09:31 EDT |
|
Happy Birthday to you, Antonius Gryllus Graecus! May you have many more
of them and continue to enrich the lives of your family and of Nova Roma!
Lucius Sergius Australicus
------------------------------------------------------------
vita brevis sed amor longus, et amor omnia vincit
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Post-Resignation Return Policy |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:29:51 +0200 |
|
M. Apollonius Formosanus Censori C. Mario Merullo et
Omnibus S.P.D.
My good Gaius Marius, I enjoyed, as always, your
thoughtful consideration (not at all boring!) of the problem
of returns after resignations. You take the matter very
seriously, as is your wont, and I think you feel me to
ignore the undesirability of resignations and returns and
the harm they do to our society.
I assure you that I do not think people should resign
and return frivolously. Still, I believe that if one has
resigned, the best thing he can do is come back! It can be
argued that if coming back is not so easy, then we will have
fewer resignations. The first problem with that is that I
doubt if it is objectively true.
If someone is so upset with Nova Roma that he resigns
and keeps that intention for nine days, he only with the
greatest rarity will have in mind (at that moment) ever
coming back. So, why should he care what we do to him or
threaten him with? Therefore, it does not act as much of a
deterrent, and ***a punishment that doesn't deter the
undesirable action of resigning and does deter the desirable
action of coming back strikes me as being poorly
conceived.***
I believe that you are not convinced that coming back is
always desirable, either for Nova Roma or the individual. I
agree in principle, but on the other hand, who *knows* the
*first* time someone joins NR that it will be good for NR or
for the individual? The desire to come back shows an
enduring love and interest and concern for Nova Roma, it
shows that someone has discovered that he cannot live as
happily without Nova Roma as with Her. And it shows that
despite having made and carried out a firm and public
decision against remaining here, the person *changes his
mind* (often painful!) and publicly reaffirms the value of
Nova Roma, which involves implicitly or explicitly admitting
before everyone that he now thinks he made a mistake
previously (definitely painful!). There is so much Roman
virtue in that that I can just not imagine our not
responding to it without an open-armed embrace to welcome
back the "prodigal son/daughter".
You want explanations for leaving and coming back. Well,
isn't much of our problem precisely in the fact that the
"explanations" for leaving are already so detailed and
"expressive" ;-) that everyone knows full well *exactly*
why someone is leaving? In fact, isn't the excitement caused
by these "clear expressions" far more disruptive to our
community life than the simple fact that some members
disppear?
Knowing why people want to come back would be very
interesting from the standpoint of social psychology and
simple human interest. But. basically. what can the person
ever say except that he made a misjudgement previously or
(sometimes) that he and/or Nova Roma have evolved in the
meantime? If we force an explantion, that is all we will
get. Probably the returning citizen will in any case feel it
natural to do that publicly on the list. Do future Censors
really want to have to read it twice every time?
Although, as you say, Gaius Marius, admission to Nova
Roma is not automatic, as it must be approved by the
Censors, practically speaking I presume that we all expect
our Censors to admit everyone properly applying unless there
is some clear and compelling reason not to. I firmly believe
that we should follow this same policy for the *first*
return from self-imposed exile. That is something in which
the love and need of an individual for Nova Roma clearly
outweighs any and all obstacles or reluctances, and he wants
to *come Home*. One time is not a revolving door. After the
first time, I agree that the Censors should place the burden
of proof on the returning individual, and perhaps correspond
with him to ensure that he is not likely to make a habit of
this and that Nova Roma will not take harm from the person
or the Censors constantly troubled to the detriment of their
other duties.
We must also remember that there are people who
essentially love and care about Nova Roma, but who feel they
cannot in good conscience remain a formal part of Her due to
things like the Gender Edictum, which really touch a nerve
of conscience because of the wholly intolerable injustice
involved that taints us all. When we have righted ourselves
as a society and shown that our Respublica stands
definitively for justice and non-discrimination (despite
wobbles like the G.E.) ,then we must hope that those feeling
themselves prevented before from remaining formal cives can
return. And the whole process of self-exile and return in
those cases is a stark warning and a process of education
for us all, as we strive to build a fair and decent society
here. It must not be handled punitively, but with respect
and even gratitude.
And, to return to the general case, in encouraging a
welcoming approach to those who have discovered that Nova
Roma is really Home, we would not really be making things
all that easy for them. For example:
I. It would not readmit them to any office they had held at
the time of resignation.
II. It would not automatically readmit them to the Senate,
if they were senators.
III. It would not automatically readmit them to their former
gentes.
IV. Their points would revert to those of a new citizen.
V. It would not apply to those who had had their citizenship
removed from them involuntarily for cause, or to those who
were in this readmission situation more than once.
We have got to exercise some Clementia and remember that
"Errare humanum est". Someone who wants to come home to Nova
Roma is obviously back on the right track, and to make life
difficult for him then, something whose threat had not
deterred him from leaving before, is not in the interests of
Nova Roma. We need citizens who care enough to come back,
especially if they left in a great huff. And that is
therapeutic for us all, because it reaffirms the value of
Nova Roma in all our eyes, and encourages us too to
rededicate ourselves to Her.
Valete!
------------------------------------------
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus,
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae,
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis Futurae
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049
________________________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________
--
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus,
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae,
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis Futurae
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049
________________________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Dies Natalis Patrisfamilias Gentis Gryllae |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:45:11 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Pontiff and Praetor Graecus;
I send to you my personal best wishes for the day and the hopes of many
more such happy and productive landmarks in your, life and career.
Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Of Kindness, Compassion, and Weakness |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:14:51 PDT |
|
Salve, Cai Suetoni!
Scripsisti:
>I understand that in ancient Rome "compassion" and "kindness" were
>considered a weakness<
I think that you misunderstand (and you're probably not the only one who
does): 'compassion' and 'kindness' are best redefined in Roman terms, I
think, as Pietas: id est, kindness and compassion where you have a DUTY to
be kind and compassionate. Proper objects of kindness and compassion are:
friends, allies, partners, dependants, patrons; this is as far as it goes.
There is an obverse duty, too, to be implacable to your enemies (and the
enemies of friends, allies, partners etc.). Deviation from the dual duties
of amicitia and inimicitia defined above are indeed, in Roman terms,
weaknesses, and dangerous ones at that.
There can, of course, be moral conflicts within such a code: for example, I
may have a personal inimicitia toward a citizen who has committed inuria
against my friends, but he may also be a fellow-magistrate (even a senior
magistrate), in which capacity he deserves my duty of co-operation and
non-aggression. This can be a difficult problem to deal with.
The Nazarenes preach kindness and compassion to all: this to me is a counsel
of perfection, and therefore one in which I readily admit I always failed. I
see the Roman concept of duty (as outlined above) to be a workable
alternative for me (so I'm working on it). I see that in all things, balance
and proportion are called for: an imbalance - whether of too much
forbearance, or too much severity - is true weakness. Meae sententiae,
anyhow.
Bene vale,
Vado.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Of Kindness, Compassion, and Weakness |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:00:12 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, All;
I would also remind those who have forgootten that, "turn the other
cheek" is a Christian aspect not a Roman one. I have not done well with
that particular version of my faith either. If you slap me, you have my
distinct permission to prepare yourself to get slapped in return, man,
woman or child.
Vado's comments on the word "Duty" matches my own, and while there are
some situations that are difficult, as he has commented, respect towards
one's seniors is a strong aspect of my makeup.
Many of today's young people do not recognize seniors, or the
responsibilities that they carry. Having sat in the "catbird's seat" on
occasion the responsibility, to me, is very real. When you have the
life of a man relying upon your decision, and there is no-one else to
turn to for advice, and all others back away, because they fear to be
involved---that, my friends, sets the boundary of the watershed.
Compassion for someone who has a real problem that affects you both and
he / she has done thier best to deal with such, is one thing.
Compassion for someone who has ridden roughshod over your beiefs and
standards for no good reason save his / her own is, in my humble view,
is ill placed in the Roman World.
Someone who has worked closely with the elected / appointed authority to
further thier aims, certainly should be considered seriously, but those
who manipulate thier contemporaries, raise the same problems again and
again with the current rank of authority for thier benefit and no-one
elses, in my view, are to be looked upon with suspicion as to thier true
loyalties and purposes.
Is the elected / appointed authority always right?? Of course not, and
when they are wrong, in another's opinion, then that observation should
be made. However, I believe, it should be made quietly, courteously,
and without the anger, viciousness, deliberate language, sarcasm, and
belittling that often accompanies such comments. Those in authority do
not deserve such, and such views and actions simply are detrimental in
my view far more to the sender than to the receiver.
The above are my opinions only. I feel that I have the right to discuss
them since I have in my other life as well as in Nova Roma, acted upon
them and have recieved replies ranging from foul language to hearty
agreement. To those I have felt that I have wronged I have
apologized--to the others, I have responded, not in kind, but in my
beliefs. That is who I am, if anyone was wondering.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] War elephants(was Theological Correctness) |
| From: |
"M G" <fresco@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:18:55 +0300 |
|
----- Original Message -----
From: <dean6886@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, 30 May, 2000 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] War elephants(was Theological Correctness)
>
> I never knew there had been an "Atlas elephant". Thanks for bringing
> that up.
> I just went down to the Milwaukee zoo a few days ago by chance and got a
> couple of snapshots of African elephants.
>
> Here's a question. What other types of animals were written about
> from Roman antiquity that are now extinct? Severely endangered
> especially around Rome or within Italy today?
>
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
The only important big animal species which comes to my mind and which
disappared about 300 years ago from Europe is BOS PRIMIGENIUS (lat.) or
BOUR (romanian) or URO (italian), it lived in Eastern Europe, DACIA, Poland
etc.
MANY other animal species simply disappared from many countries, but not
from the whole world, like hippos and crokodiles from Egypt, lions from Asia
(except India) etc.
There was even a vegetable species from Lybia which was used as luxury spice
and which disappared because too heavily harvested and too heavily taxed by
the romans during late imperial roman times. Who remembers the name ? Now I
don't, sorry.
Marcus Prometheus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Silphium |
| From: |
"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 02 Jun 2000 18:43:11 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "M G" <fresco@f...> wrote:
> > I never knew there had been an "Atlas elephant". > >
Here's a question. What other types of animals were written about
> > from Roman antiquity that are now extinct? Severely endangered
> > especially around Rome or within Italy today?
> >
> > Vale,Gaius Drusus Domitianus
> The only important big animal species which comes to my mind and
which disappared about 300 years ago from Europe is BOS PRIMIGENIUS
> There was even a vegetable species from Lybia which was used as
luxury spice and which disappared because too heavily harvested and
too heavily taxed by the romans during late imperial roman times. Who
remembers the name ? Now I don't, sorry.
> Marcus Prometheus
Silphium
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Gladiator (quid - etiam iterum?) |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:33:23 -0500 (CDT) |
|
> I confess I was disappointed at first - we had to pay! Imagine! When I
> demanded my Propraetor's double seat, in the middle of the row reserved
> for the Decemviri and the Augustales, and two more double seats for my
>wife Aletheia Moravia and our good friend Caecilia Leporaria, they laughed!
That's strange... I assume, of course, that your toga and tunica had a
quantity of purple dye sufficient to indicate your rank. And the ushers
didn't recognize this? What *do* they teach them in schools these days?
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] War elephants(was Theological Correctness) |
| From: |
SerPhoenicius@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:47:30 EDT |
|
Avete,
I find it exciting, yet sad, to think that there were also lions found in
Europe until 80-100 C.E. As such, the European lion is said to have been the
first variety of animal to have become extinct in recorded history. It is not
clear, however, whether this population actually comprised a separate
subspecies from those that have survived up to the present day.
Valete,
CVLTELLUS
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Silphium, Pass the silphium, please |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:39:32 -0000 |
|
> > There was even a vegetable species from Lybia which was used as
> luxury spice and which disappared because too heavily harvested and
> too heavily taxed by the romans during late imperial roman times.
Who
> remembers the name ? Now I don't, sorry.
> > Marcus Prometheus
>
> Silphium
Salvete Quirites
SILPHIUM, from its Greek name, or more properly LASER to the Latins,
and generally identified with *ferula tingitana*, HAS returned to
North Africa. It also never went extinct outside of the imperial
boundaries. LASER remains the main ingredient in Indian sauces
called *heeng*.
Stinking fennel or *ferula fetida*, also called ASSAFOETIDA, has
replaced LASER in Western herbal preparations. Perhaps this is where
the notion that it is extinct comes from.
Meanwhile I still have a ton of ROCKET (eruca sativa) to unload if
any Apicius wants to drop in and pick some up.
Valete
Piscine
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] GREAT LAKES PROVINCIA OF NOVA ROMA |
| From: |
"Robert Williamson" <robert@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:03:37 -0400 |
|
Salvé: This looks like a great beginning to a great web site. I am sure you
will do just great with it as it develops. As for the Great Lakes Provincia,
there are others who live around the Great Lakes who are in Canada, such as
right between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario in the Niagara Peninsula. Best of
luck on your site, I plan on getting my own site up as soon as I can find
the time.Iit seems that finding time for my own interests is hard to do
these days. ... Valé ... Appius Marcellus Cato
----- Original Message -----
From: <dean6886@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] GREAT LAKES PROVINCIA OF NOVA ROMA
> Hope this small provincial websight that I just finished meets with
> generalized approval. I would like to see this linked up with the
> Provincial page asap.
>
> As the senatorial votes are just finishing up on our new Curator
> Sermo, I was hoping whoever is still in charge could link it up with the
> main Nova Roma websight. Would that be Graecus, as I just can't seem to
> remember for sure?
>
> Gaius Drusus Domitianus
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Nova Roma Military Engineering Sodalitas |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:58:50 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Omnes;
This is to announce the opening of the subject web page. It will
continue to grow in the coming months so visit us often. Those of you
who are more skillful than I in surfing the web, any information that
you may have pertaining to this subject topic, would be most welcome.
I thank you for your kind attention.
Rome -- Triumphant!!!
Marcus Minucius Audens
Sodalitas Commander
Tribunus Miitaris Laticlavius
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
----------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] FW: [RomanOutpost] Gentes: Idea for Project? |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:38:21 +0100 |
|
Salve, mi Aureliane!
> We'd like to have some info about each gens that would help a
> prospective Citizen with little or no background in Roman history
> (other than enthusiasm!) select which gen(te)s he or she would
> like to link up with, nonne?
We would. However, I feel that information on current, living members would
be of more pragmatic value than a purely historical resume.
<AMPUTATIO>
> Well, I was thinking: Why not create something like that (albeit
> on a much smaller scale) for Nova Roma? Each gens-name on the
> Album Gentium could be made into a hyperlink; the links would
> all go to a page giving a one- or two-paragraph description of
> each family and who were its ancient 'ornaments'.
Erm. Fine for the Marii et alii, but what about the Minucii?
Or what if some over-enthusiastic paterfamilias submits a suppostitious
monograph (exemplum gratum) about the descent of the illustrious Moravii
from the Boii in their westward migration from Boihemum in the late 2nd C.
BCE, to compensate for the fact that their first appearance in written
sources is in Scottish documents of the early 13thC. CE? ;-)
>So for the
> Marii, pro exemplo,
> we'd have (please, no historical nitpicking; I'm only showing
> the proposed format, and do not vouch for the correctness of
> the info used in my example):
>
> Gens: Maria
>
> Maybe an etymological note on the origin of the name:
> e.g. "Marius, derived from Mars or Mamers; may also refer to
> the Marsii."
>
> When the gens flourished :
> "A prominent plebeian family of the 2nd and 1st centuries BCE."
>
> Leading members and summary of their achievements:
> " -- Gaius Marius: served under Scipio Aemelianus; Propraetor
> Hispaniae; seven times Consul; commander in the Jugurthine War;
> and vanquisher of the Germanic Cimbri et Teutones. Acclaimed
> as Third Founder of Rome.
> " -- Sextus Marius: (possibly adopted) son of the above."
>
> Perhaps a list of the Praenomina in use by each gens would also
> alleviate some of the guesswork?
>
> I could put this together myself, and scare up info for most
> of the historical gentes which have been recreated in Nova Roma.
> It wouldn't be anything elaborate; just a way to get the applicant
> from "Which one do I pick?" to "Hmm, that name sounds cool..."
> to "Hey, wait a minute--I've *heard* of that guy!!"
Mea sententia, nomen est omen: to adopt an ancient name (like an ancient
role, for that matter) is a responsibility not to be taken lightly. For this
reason, I preferred to latinise my own names and thus honour my existing,
blood family and my actual ancestors. No offence intended to any who
evidently wish to honour adoptive ancestors.
> Does anyone think this might be a Useful Thing? Are there any
> tweaks I could add that would make it even more so?
Ita. It could indeed be of great value, if sole concentration on
aristocratic gentes were avoided.
There are many plebeian gentile names, Roman/Italic and provincial, about
whose original owners nothing is known beyond what they had the disposable
income to have chiselled on a tombstone or a votive altar. And I also feel
(well, I would, wouldn't I?) that latinization of non-Roman names is to be
encouraged in parallel (and I don't mean horrid anomalies like 'Eduardus C.
Robinsonus').
>Would the
> Webmaster accept it, do you think, or should I maybe submit a
> few short articles at a time to the Eagle--or maybe do both?
To the Eagle, I'd say - see how it flies.
> I'd like to at least make a beginning on this, and perhaps offer
> it up to Nova Roma as a 'brideprice' of sorts to demonstrate
> my good intentions should it become possible for me to reapply
> for Citizenship.
Sit dii senatusque volentii!
Bene vale,
Nicolaus Moravius Vado.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Prepare to Receive Cavalry! [Was: Re: De Equitatione] |
| From: |
SerPhoenicius@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 2 Jun 2000 19:47:14 EDT |
|
Avete,
Disclaimer: The following is slightly off-topic.
<< If I recall correctly, a square that formed in time (didn't let any
cavalry get
inside before they closed the door) was secure unless some horsemen
was able to get their mounts to leap the wall of the square. >>
Although the above-cited was the official military doctrine, tactical
miracles occasionally have occurred, notably in 1846 at Aliwal during the
First Anglo-Sikh War, and later in 1857 at Khoosha-ab during the
Anglo-Persian War. The latter resulted in VC's for the primary participants.
The horses didn't fare nearly as well.
Valete,
CVLTELLVS
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