| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Of signets and things most vain. |
| From: |
"Jane or Patricia " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:39:13 -0000 |
|
> Can anyone give me any examples of a good Roman Paterfamilias'
signet,
> dimensions/etc. or know of a place/person I may purchase/commision
one from?
I don't know where you are, but I know that one of the antique shops
near the British Museum in London is run by a guy who specializes in
"intaglios" - the carved stones that went in the ring. A genuine
Roman
one might make easily be set into a modern-but-old-looking ring.
The intaglio ring that Connie Nielsen wore in "Gladiator" was way too
big. I suppose it was plausible that a member of the imperial family
WOULD have a really big one, but most of the ones I've seen are half
that size or smaller - perhaps an oval about half an inch along its
longest axis.
Roman rings came in all sizes, so get one that fits you and looks
good
on your hand. At one time gold rings were restricted to Senators, but
that was relaxed later on. Slaves and freedmen were also prohibited
from wearing gold rings under some circumstances.
I've never seen a Roman signet commercially available, but a good
jeweler might be able to look at pictures of known Roman specimens
and
come up with something that looks old enough.
Good luck! This sounds like a fun project. Let us know what you come
up
with.
Patricia Cassia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Autumn gathering |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 05 Jun 2000 01:13:10 -0000 |
|
As the members of the Nova Britannia Provincia agreed at our winter
meeting, some of us will meet next weekend at Roman Days.
Cassius and I had volunteered to plan and host a gathering in the
autumn in our home state of Maine. We know of a lovely and economical
meeting hall (the same one we used for our wedding, so a couple of
you
can already find it!), and the area provides a good selection of
motels, campgrounds and other accommodations. We may even be able to
put up one or two people at our place.
It looks like a good weekend to do this would be Oct. 7-9, which is a
three-day weekend for some people. Maine is beautiful in early
October,
and the motel rates are lower than they would be earlier in the
season.
We're looking for feedback on a couple of things:
1) Is this in fact a good weekend to do this? We're fairly set on it,
but if one or more important persons cannot manage it even with this
much notice and would definitely attend on another weekend, we would
consider changing it.
2) What would you like to do? We thought of games, a Roman-themed
movie, perhaps some Roman food, a ritual for those interested in the
Religio, and of course the dreaded Provincia meeting. We might also
bring books to share or swap and items for vending or barter.
One option is to open the event to the public one afternoon, and hold
our own mini-Roman Days. This would require a reasonable number of
people willing to appear in costume and re-enact various events in
Roman life (I know where we can get a good wedding ritual!), plus the
making of displays.
We'll probably also include some free time for shopping, entertaining
non-NR family members and so forth.
Please note that ALL Citizens are welcome at this event - you need
not
be a resident of Nova Britannia to participate.
Ideas, suggestions, comments? Send them to me at pjane@--------
or Cassius at cassius622@--------
Patricia Cassia
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 886 |
| From: |
JustiniaCassia@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:07:04 EDT |
|
In a message dated 6/4/0 1:36:24 PM, vergil@-------- writes:
<< (there have been various definitions on what gender means depending on
which side of the issue one stands) >>
The definitions I listed in my last posting (and for which I provided
academic citations) have nothing to do with my stand on the issue of the
Gender Edictum (actually, the opposite is the case). Those definitions come
from my academic training as an anthropologist, and were first introduced to
me in classrooms by my professors. Surely you did not mean to equate an
informed opinion with an uninformed one?
Iustinia Cassia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Veto of Gender Edict by Lucius Sergius Australicus |
| From: |
"Gary E. McGrath" <gary65@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:13:07 -0400 |
|
Greetings All,
It has come to my attention that intercessio (veto) of the Gender
Edict of Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix has been pronounced. Pursuant to the
Constitution of Nova Roma and the Lex Vedia Edictium intercessio can only be
pronounced "as soon as the edictum has been issued, but no longer than 72
hours after its publication . . ." As the gender edict was issued on April
23, 2000 and posted to the Tabularium on April 24, 2000, the intercessio of
Lucius Sergius Australicus is moot and has no effect.
In Service to the Senate and the People of Nova Roma,
Marcus Iunius Iulianus
Praetor et Senator
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] RE: The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
caesar@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 05 Jun 2000 03:19:49 -0000 |
|
Salvete omnes.
As you all know, I had been absent for a brief period of time. Well,
I am back, and just in time it seems. The "gender debate" was and is
one, which I have little desire to get involved in. As my colleague
has said, I do indeed view it as a "little" issue. I'll admit that.
But perhaps little is the wrong word; simple seems more suiting to
me.
Millions of 10 year olds all over the world are learning right now,
the main difference between a man and a woman. We are indisputably a
part of nature, and, perhaps disputably, a creation of the Gods. They
have differentiated between men and women. It is a state of mind as
well as a physical feature. Every person who has a phallus knows that
he is a man, regardless of what they would like to be or what they
believe they should have been, and vice versa. As for the physical,
if my colleague, or anyone else, desires a diagram, picture, etc.,
they are easily available online. I'll help you find it.
One is simply a man or a woman. Amici, it does not get any simpler
than this. There are many choices that we have throughout life, so
many so I am unable to begin listing them. It can be universally
agreed however, that one should definitely have the choice to call
themselves whatever they like. No one is trying to restrict that
right. If I was adamant about being called Caesaria, I am sure that
people here would call me such. But it would be a nickname. I cannot
legally change my name to Gnaea Tarquinia Caesaria because I would
have to legally change my gender, which reality does not permit.
But now I am trying to explain, at length, something which does not
require but a sentence for explanation. It's simple; one cannot
choose his/her gender. YOU HAVE ONE, OR YOU DON'T.
The following comments were made by my honored colleague, L. Sergius.
<<They bring dishonor upon the whole of our Republic. They shame us
before the other nations of the world. >>
I see no dishonor in preserving truth amongst our citizenry. Would
you rather have prospective citizens lying to us? Would you have the
censors then, in turn, lie to the citizens? That, to me, is a
worrisome precedent. I do see dishonor surrounding this issue, though
from another side. It would certainly be a grave dishonor to our
ancestors, and to many of our Gods, if we were to begin calling a
tree, a river; calling a dog, a cat; and perhaps most of all, calling
a man, a woman (or vice versa). In doing so we are demolishing those
very foundations which have been laid for us, indeed, even the ground
they have been laid upon. Therein lies the dishonor.
What country can you name which condones deceitfulness? Can you name
a country that, as a whole, does not differentiate between man and
woman? Can we really ignore the obvious, the simple, the rational,
reality. Therein lies the shame.
<<They are contrary to the application of law in most civilized
countries. They are contrary to the spirit and the letter of our own
Constitution, which states "Citizenship is open to anyone regardless
of ethnic heritage, gender, religious affiliation, or sexual
orientation." ANY EDICT THAT PROPOSES TO DENY OR LIMIT THE RIGHTS OF
A PERSON FOR DECLINING TO SHOW OR TELL THE CENSOR WHAT THEY HAVE IN
THEIR PANTS IS CLEARLY IN VIOLATION OF THE INTENT OF THAT CLAUSE. >>
Has someone spoken of closing citizenship to women? or men? or
homosexuals? or transvestites? or hermaphrodites? I think not.
Citizenship will _always_ remain open to all, that is not even in
question. More importantly, it is not even vaguely addressed in the
edict. There is NO discrimination in this edict. There is no
discrimination in Nova Roma, that is clearly stated. There is,
however, one right which prospective citizens are being denied. The
right to lie. The right to be deceitful. The right to treat Nova Roma
as if it were a game. Why don't we roll for gender? Roll an even
number, get a boy's name, roll an odd get a girl's!
If people are allowed to legally assume whatever gender they like, it
will be a disgrace and a belittlement of Nova Roma's status as a real
world nation. Whether one is male or female is both a state of mind,
and a physical actuality. It cannot be denied. In a "real world"
situation, it would be recognized and we cannot ignore blatant facts.
My honored colleague has brought up the case of Lucius Marius
Fimbria, which apparently was the start of this. It should be known
that I did indeed consider this petition. I did not feel that
anyone's rights were violated. Marius has, and always has had,
the
right to call himself whatever he desired. Nearly all of us respected
that, and I will continue to, regardless of whether or not he is
still with us. He can be called a man, but the nation of Nova Roma
must recognize him as a female, just as the United States does. Just
as Italy, or France, or England, or Peru, or Panama, or South Africa,
or China, or Thailand, or Australia (etc.,etc.) would. The Gods
recognize him as a female, as his God probably does as well. There is
no violation of rights, or constitution in this instance and neither
is there any discrimination.
Regardless of my own opinions, which is what the above represents, I
am here to express yours. I encourage all civis privatus, if you do
not wish to post publicly, to write me at Caesar@--------, and
tell me where you stand on the issue.
For all of the reasons above, I am required by my duty to the
citizens, to the Republic, and to the Gods to pronounce intercessio
against my colleague's intercessio, thus declaring it null and
void.
I am not verifying any published or unpublished edict; I am simply
giving our magistrates a chance to operate as defined by the
constitution. In my opinion, no one's rights have been impaired or
other wise disturbed by this edict, and certainly no one has been
violated by something yet unpublished. The Censors shall remain free
to draft or revise a gender edict for consideration by the senate and
People of Nova Roma. I trust that the edict is being drafted with the
intent of being brought before the People for ratification, and give
all my assurance that this _will_ be the case.
Valete, amici.
Gn. Tarquinius Caesar
Tribunus Plebis et Pontifex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Of signets and things most vain. |
| From: |
"Gary McGrath" <gary65@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 05 Jun 2000 03:26:04 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Decius Aucelius Sebastianus"
<Decius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Omnes
>
> Can anyone give me any examples of a good Roman Paterfamilias'
signet,
> dimensions/etc. or know of a place/person I may purchase/commision
one from?
>
> Ave
> DASebastianus
I would try Carl Lemke Unique Jewelry (www.signetring.com) he does a
lot of work for the SCA and others along the "coat of arms" line, but
I've heard that he would work with you. As for the size of the ring,
etc., I don't have any good answers except use your best judgment!
GOOD LUCK
M. Iunius Iulianus
Praetor et Senator
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Veto of Gender Edict by Lucius Sergius Australicus |
| From: |
Ira Adams <iadams@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:15:10 -0500 |
|
Salve Senator, but you are mistaken. I did not pronounce intercessio
against the original "gender edict", which as you point out could not be
done at this late date. Therefore the original edict is still in place. I
merely forbad the Censores to issue any revised edict of that sort or to
take certain actions.
They were free to enforce the original edict as long as in doing so they
did not take any action "... that would limit admission to citizenship of
any person on account of any gender-related issues, including the
grammatical gender of the prospective citizen's chosen name."
For them to take any such action in the face of my intercessio would
have been unlawful.
I took this step as an interim measure until the people of Nova Roma
could express their will on the matter in the Comitia Centuriata. Does
that not seem an appropriate way to have this gravely divisive matter
settled? Not by this or that magistrate or body but by the citizens of
Nova Roma as a whole?
However, the point is _now_ moot since my colleague has chosen to veto my
veto. How ironic that the defenders of "Roman names" have to resort to
the non-Roman requirement for Trbunicial unanimity in order to advance
their cause. So it goes....
Respectfully,
Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis
On 6/4/00 10:13 PM Gary E. McGrath (gary65@--------) wrote:
>Greetings All,
> It has come to my attention that intercessio (veto) of the Gender
>Edict of Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix has been pronounced. Pursuant to the
>Constitution of Nova Roma and the Lex Vedia Edictium intercessio can only be
>pronounced "as soon as the edictum has been issued, but no longer than 72
>hours after its publication . . ." As the gender edict was issued on April
>23, 2000 and posted to the Tabularium on April 24, 2000, the intercessio of
>Lucius Sergius Australicus is moot and has no effect.
>In Service to the Senate and the People of Nova Roma,
>Marcus Iunius Iulianus
>Praetor et Senator
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Testing |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 01:38:06 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Working Fine!!!
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RE: The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
"Caius Antonius Severus" <EmperorSeverus@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 4 Jun 2000 23:16:13 -0700 |
|
This seems a simple matter of telling the truth. A man that is born a man,
remains a man, regardless of how he chooses to live or what clothes he wears
or what his friends or enemies call him, and the same is equally true for a
woman. I would not think any man, less of a man, because of a disfigurement
or injury that would remove the most obvious outward signs that he is a man
and again, the same is equally true for a woman. So why should we deny the
truth of a persons true sex, the one they were born into, not what they feel
they should be. One of the Roman Virtues we are supposed to be aspiring to
is truthfulness. Some ask why it should matter to me what is actually in
someone else's pants and the short answer is, it doesn't, I can deal with
either sex. What does matter to me, is that the people I deal with are
honest with me, just as I am with them. When a person chooses to hide who
they really are, they are in effect deceiving me. A lie, for whatever
purpose, is still a lie. Do I condemn a person because they feel nature
played a horrible trick on them, placing them in the body of one sex when
they feel they should be another, no. Will I pretend they are a sex that
they are not, again, no. Pretending is the realm of role playing, games,
flights of fancy, fantasy. If we are a real world organization then
obviously we should in every way treat our membership in Nova Roma as a
serious matter and we should treat each other with respect and honesty. As
it has been stated before, membership is not being denied anyone as a result
of the edict, there is no discrimination here, merely a pursuit of truth.
Caius Antonius Severus
----- Original Message -----
> I encourage all civis privatus, if you do
> not wish to post publicly, to write me at Caesar@--------, and
> tell me where you stand on the issue.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] New Citizen |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 05 Jun 2000 10:15:54 +0200 |
|
Ave, Lucius Vatinius Lupus.
Be welcome. I hope you will find what you´re searching for, as I did.
Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
StormWolf schrieb:
> *dances about happily till he notices his tunic is flapping a little high*
>
> My application was approved! I'm a Nova Roma citizen!
>
> Vale
> Lucius Vatinius Lupus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| Subject: |
RE: [novaroma] Veto of Gender Edict by Lucius Sergius Australicus |
| From: |
"Gary E. McGrath" <gary65@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 05:12:31 -0400 |
|
Please point out to me where in the Constitution, or anywhere else for that
matter you have the right to veto something that hasn't happened yet!
Marcus Iunius Iulianus
Praetor et Senator
-----Original Message-----
From: Ira Adams [mailto:iadams@--------]
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 0115
To: novaroma@--------; SenatusRomanus@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Veto of Gender Edict by Lucius Sergius
Australicus
Salve Senator, but you are mistaken. I did not pronounce intercessio
against the original "gender edict", which as you point out could not be
done at this late date. Therefore the original edict is still in place. I
merely forbad the Censores to issue any revised edict of that sort or to
take certain actions.
They were free to enforce the original edict as long as in doing so they
did not take any action "... that would limit admission to citizenship of
any person on account of any gender-related issues, including the
grammatical gender of the prospective citizen's chosen name."
For them to take any such action in the face of my intercessio would
have been unlawful.
I took this step as an interim measure until the people of Nova Roma
could express their will on the matter in the Comitia Centuriata. Does
that not seem an appropriate way to have this gravely divisive matter
settled? Not by this or that magistrate or body but by the citizens of
Nova Roma as a whole?
However, the point is _now_ moot since my colleague has chosen to veto my
veto. How ironic that the defenders of "Roman names" have to resort to
the non-Roman requirement for Trbunicial unanimity in order to advance
their cause. So it goes....
Respectfully,
Lucius Sergius Australicus
Tribunus Plebis
On 6/4/00 10:13 PM Gary E. McGrath (gary65@--------) wrote:
>Greetings All,
> It has come to my attention that intercessio (veto) of the Gender
>Edict of Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix has been pronounced. Pursuant to the
>Constitution of Nova Roma and the Lex Vedia Edictium intercessio can only
be
>pronounced "as soon as the edictum has been issued, but no longer than 72
>hours after its publication . . ." As the gender edict was issued on April
>23, 2000 and posted to the Tabularium on April 24, 2000, the intercessio of
>Lucius Sergius Australicus is moot and has no effect.
>In Service to the Senate and the People of Nova Roma,
>Marcus Iunius Iulianus
>Praetor et Senator
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Veto of Gender Edict by Lucius Sergius Australicus |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:48:28 +0100 |
|
Salvete
For those who seem to love so much the Constitution.
The intercessio is pronounced against a measure from a magistrate AFTER IT
HAS BEEN ISSUED. So, Autralicus could not issue a veto because NOTHING WAS
ISSUED and Caesar could nor veto Australucus' veto because THERE WAS NO
VETO.
Lets talk about things correctly, ok?
Another thing. The act of Tribunus Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar is not unroman.
A Tribune COULD veto an action of his coleague.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Praetor
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Nonas Iunii (June 5th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:02:15 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action or
public business can take place.
The rex sacrorum appears on the steps of the Capitol on this day to announce
the regular fixed feasts.
Today is the feast of Semo Sancus (also known as Dius Fidius since the reign
of king Numa Pompilius). Semo Sancus was the principal God of the Sabines,
the equivalent of Iuppiter. The temple of Semo Sancus stands on the Quirinal
hill, south of the temple of Quirinus and adjacent to the Gate of Sancus. A
college of priests called Bidentales (the name was mysterious already for
the ancient Romans) administers His rites.
He is associated with the taking of oaths and the making of treaties, and a
common oath formula is "medius fidius" or "me dius fidius". Such oaths had
to be made outdoors, in view of the sky.
Valete omnes
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Remarks of Lucius on Australicus |
| From: |
"Lucius" <vergil@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:53:14 -0400 |
|
Salvete,
Lucius Equitius: This is a response to set the record on a few items that there have been misstatements made. I have no further interest in this debate.
M. Apollonius Formosanus Lucio Equitio et Omnibus S.P.D.
I just wished to comment on some of your comments on the oration of our Tribunus Plebis.
Lucius Equitius: What? I have a Passport, as well as other IDENTIFYING information. Should Nova Roma's
citizens be any less truthful?
APOLLONIUS: A lot of the rhetoric and maybe much of the real belief in the Sullan camp seems to be connected with the idea of *honesty*. I am sure that most of us think that that citizenship applicants should be honest in the information they provide the Censors.
Lucius Equitius: Thank you, and I will remind Sulla to use the term 'sex' rather than 'gender'.
Lucius Sergius Australicus:
They are contrary to the spirit and the letter of our own Constitution,WHAT THEYHAVE IN THEIR PANTS IS CLEARLY IN VIOLATION OF THE INTENT OF THAT CLAUSE.
Lucius Equitius: Since there is no 'discrimination' based on gender or sex, what difference should it make being honest about what gender/sex one is?
APOLLONIUS:
Why this obsession with trying to *force* people to register a gender which they do not feel themselves to be?
Lucius Equitius: Once again Sulla should use the correct term. BTW Nova Roma does have transsexual
citizen(s) and there was no problem with her application or continued use of her name.
Lucius Sergius Australicus:
> This edict and those supporting it are not only contrary to the laws of the civilized world,...
Lucius Equitius: PuLeeze..
APOLLONIUS: I would use the same language as Australicus. Civilised nations do not discriminate against persons on account of their not being clearly identifiable as classically male or classically female. Civil society existsto protect people as human persons, not as carriers of a particular sex.
Lucius Equitius: Once again, I ask where is the 'discrimination'? Who is being persecuted that they need to be protected?
Lucius Sergius Australicus:
> What comes next? An edict that I may not call myself Australicus because I don't currently dwell in Australia? An edict that Damianus Lucianus Dexippus may not rejoin us unless he never again refers to himself as a female?
Lucius Equitius: ONCE AGAIN, Damianus Lucianus Dexippus left because of the lack of respect for the Relgio as did others of his former Gens, as well as the Meakers.
APOLLONIUS: I do not think that is the whole story. Now, is
it?
Lucius Equitius: Yes, it is.
APOLLONIUS: How about some honesty here too, hm? Religion was part of it and a feeling of being harassed (and here I speak of his feeling only, not being in a position to confirm details) for his expression of his sexual identity by our Censor.
Lucius Equitius: Dexippus wasn't harassed for his 'sexual identity', at least by most of us, and certianly not by a Censor, Senator or Pontifex. As a matter of fact he was appointed as an Augur, a colleague of mine. I have been a friend to him and continue to be, so no, I guess you aren't in a position to confirm details.
APOLLONIUS: I am very much opposed to political correctness. It is evil and repressive. However, I wonder why you want to call a human being a woman or a man based on one criterion only: in-pants inspection!? And what about cases of surgery? Of accident? Of hermaphroditism? *Oversimplification*
Lucius Equitius: Know what? These issues were addressed in Sullas revision, but some people will not settle for a compromise. I remind you Nova Roma has transsexual citizen(s), no problem. We want people to be as honest and truthful here as in their own country, state, province, etc. I hope the picture is becoming clear.
Lucius Equitius: AND as far as I"M concerned the citizens voted for Sulla as Censor and he has done his duty.
APOLLONIUS: I would have voted for him too (had I then been a citizen), and would like to call myself a Sulla supporter in everything except this Edictum and those things associated with it.
Lucius Equitius: I have voted for reps. in the past that I have not agreed with all their decision too. OH well, next election I vote differently if I feel strongly enough about one issue or more.
Lucius Equitius: You are obviously not understanding what this means. I would ask you what rights under the constitution are being denied by requiring applicants to be truthful in identifying themselves???
HUMMM. The right to vote? Hold office? anything? Oh, they can't call themselves something they are not.
APOLLONIUS:
How about a transgendered ex-male who has had hormone treatments and surgery, is in appearance an extraordinarily beautiful and sexy woman (female impersonators abundantly demonstrate the possibility of this), and is capable of sexual intercourse in the female rôle? Incapable of having children, but then many women can be infertile. Why would you insist on calling her "him"?
Lucius Equitius: ONCE AGAIN, Nova Roma has such a citizen and I would not call her anything but her name. These issues were addresssed in Sullas proposal.
APOLLONIUS:
Why this compulsiveness about sex and gender and truth? The whole affair is not black and white, yes and no, male and female.
Lucius Equitius: Actually, it is. You just don't seem to agree.
Lucius Sergius Australicus:
> In the meantime, as Tribunus Plebis I pronounce intercessio against the currently unpublished version of
this edict and against any action by the Censors that would limit admission to citizenship of any person on
account of any gender-related issues, including the grammatical gender of the prospective citizen's chosen
name.
Lucius Equitius: Ha ha, you want to veto a proposal? Who is being unreasonable, Not Sulla.
APOLLONIUS: I think we all understand that the Tribunus meant that in the event that a Censor tried to promulgate one of those texts as an Edictum, the veto would go into effect. This comment comes close to showing personal ridicule for the Tribunus, let's try to keep our comitas.
Lucius Equitius: My comment is in keeping with 'comitas', or don't you 'geddit'? I just find it absurd to try and 'veto' (I forbid) a proposal, as do others.
Lucius Sergius Australicus
> Quirites, let us remove this dishonor from the Republic and get our government out of our underwear! Or if not, then let it be decision of the people of Nova Roma, and not one of our honorable Censor simply pursuing a vendetta against his friend.
Lucius Equitius: This is slanderous! Sulla has gone out of his way to be fair to the former citizen (Märia Villarroel). He has worked very hard to consider all sides of the issue and it seems that those who disagree with his decision are the ones who are unwilling to compromise. Sulla has offered compromises, but nothing short of a complete reversal would satisfy his detractors.
APOLLONIUS: I cannot speak of my own certain knowledge about the existence of any vendetta. That may be unfair to Sulla.
Lucius Equitius: Thank you.
APOLLONIUS:
However, before the Gender Edictum was issued there was no evident problem in Nova Roman society related to gender. The completely unnecessary Edictum was an act of aggression against the normal freedom and personal identity of the person in question and (at least potentially) others. I do not see why it is so natural to compromise, when the whole problem was created by one side. Sometimes just letting well enough alone is the best possible action. I wish that Sulla had done so. When something isn't broken, don't fix it.
Valete! Marcus Apollonius Formosanus,
Lucius Equitius: Interesting you should say these things. Sulla was only responding to a request that was resubmitted after having been already decided by his predecessors. The person in question then decided that any answer that was unfavorable was unacceptable and would use whatever means necessary to gain their goal, even abusing a friendship (not the first time this was done either). So what one thinks which 'side' created a problem depends on how much one knows about the situation.
Anyway, thank you for your post. I don't think we have or will be able to convince the others either way.
Di te ament et Mars nos protegas
Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Gender issues |
| From: |
asseri@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:15:35 EDT |
|
Salve,
<< He can be called a man, but the nation of Nova Roma
must recognize him as a female, just as the United States does. >>
Actually I had a friend that legally had his to her gender changed by a
court of law. It happens all the time. There are medical conditions that will
confuse this issue. it is possible for one to appear mostly male but a gene
count would say other wise. That also is a fact.
it is unfortunately that we (the society we were born into) cannot
tolerate a strong woman or a gentle man without saying that they are not the
gender they were born too just a prefernce issue( which is not a Nova Roma
matter)... . We bring old social ghosts with us to Nova Roam. We must examine
what role gender will/must play in our micro nation and what we will
recreate for our self's of Rome
In general I can't believe this is an important matter for us. When will
we as a humans look to our self as Romans, as members of Nova Roma than as
citizens of this poor old planet then if it matters gender should be last? We
need to get past this issue and go on tomatters growing and creating the
better place.
P.A. Olivia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RE: The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
dean6886@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:54:38 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salve,
Pehaps a huge packet full of diagrams, pictures, cartoons,
links to websites, works of art, essays, and assorted films should be
put together for the populous to view regarding the Gender Issue. It
wouldn't decide a thing, but what the hey as it would give cives
something to amuse themselves with.
I cannot believe that this has been the primary focus of discussion
for the last two or so months and I have been genuinely disgusted. I
hope that we are done with this soon and can just move on to bigger and
better things.
Gaius Drusus Domitianus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Laws |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:05:27 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salvete, Citizens;
Perhaps someone can set me straight about one of the lesser known
concepts of the subject. I remember in my early education that there
was an understanding that if you entered into legal contract with a
person or insttitution that you agreed to abide by the requirements
(rules) of that contract simply by so entering therein I believe that
that idea extends to a verbal agreement to purchase or perform a service
when agreed to between two people. I know that in Texas, when faced
with the necessity of selling an object of significant value on a short
notice, a handshake was preferrable to a contract at that time and
place, all all took place as agreed.
The reason for my question is that we have spoken at some length, about
the law, and what the law really is and what one may be prosecuted for.
The instance was made of someone applying for a job by misleading the
person offering the job as to the sex of the applicant. When the
applicant showed up and the person offering the job ascertained that the
sex was not satisfactory to the posion offered, it is within that
person's right to refuse the job applicant. I think that that is fairly
well understood, but to extend the idea one further point, if the
applicanrt had been extended an offer of a travel allowance to come from
a significant distance for the initial interview and was refused for
reason of a sexual nature, could the applicant claim the promised travel
allowance. My feeling would be to say no, because the applicant mislead
the person offering the job, based on the entrance into a unwritten but
supposedly understood rule of contract.
As we move into a more enlightened century the restrictions about sexual
suitabilities for various classes of jobs / tasks are falling all around
us. Few still remain and for the most part those few are primarily
governed by previous requirements of an existing workforce, or severe
restrictions on facilities relating to our personal moral values.
My real question here-- is there not a body of law which deals with
understood, verbal, and legal written contracts which compels those who
enter into a contract (unspoken, verbal or written) to hew to the lines
of the contract?? (Further example: when one stops a city bus for the
purpose of transportation--that is an understood contract (is it not?),
that the bus will stop and offer services in relation to the bus
company's guidelines, with the understood agreement that the appicanrt
will pay the specified fare and obey certain rules of public and private
deportment and safety while aboard the bus.)
I beg your pardon for delving into modern day antecedants in this post,
but there have been several discussions about the law which raises
questions in my mind about long-held beliefs which are now being brought
into question.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RE: The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:27:34 +0100 |
|
Salvete Gai Druse Domitiane et al
> I cannot believe that this has been the primary focus of discussion
>for the last two or so months and I have been genuinely disgusted. I
>hope that we are done with this soon and can just move on to bigger and
>better things.
I'm disgusted with it too. Unfortunately people come here to play the "Roman
Paradise" game and forget that Nova Roma must take compromises as a nation
striving for credibility. Some people want to throw NR against the world
without thinking that History is not an instantaneous process.
I have great ideals myself. I even try to implement them on my daily
relationship with others. But when we think about laws for a State, we must
be precise. Nova Roma is not the property of a few revolutionaries. There
are many sensibilities. Compromise is the key. Without compromise and by
using the veto so easily to force one's own ideas to the others, I can only
forecast civil wars and the end of the Respublica. This has happened in the
past and can be repeated in Nova Roma.
People of Rome, beware of your representatives, for a magistrate's title
can sometimes become no more than a title when the magistrate starts to
defend pseudo-causes instead of matters of real interest to the people.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Senator et Praetor
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RE: Praetor's voice on The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
RexMarcius@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:10:20 EDT |
|
Salve Praetor!
I certainly have to disagree with you on your last post. The Tribunician Veto
has certainly not been used "easily" by Australicus and he did call for a
popular vote NOT in the comitia plebis tributa but in the Comitia Centuriata
which shows his honest intentions. And Civil Wars are started because people
derelict their duties and not because they exercise their constitutional
rights.
I believe it is necessary to publicly support the institution of Tribune
against an unnecessary attack by another magistrate (you signed your post as
praetor), when BOTH Tribunes try to act within their constitutional limits
and NOT outside of it (and they may veto not only issued edicta but ANY
action of other magistrates). To define what a pseudo-case is, is not the
praetor's sole prerogative.
On the other hand I have to agree with what you say regarding the necessity
for compromise in any community. Especially if it concerns such a minor
matter as the use of names.
Marcus Marcius Rex
Plebeian Civis
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RE: Praetor's voice on The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 20:22:31 +0100 |
|
Salve civis Marce Marci Rex
>I certainly have to disagree with you on your last post. The Tribunician
Veto
>has certainly not been used "easily" by Australicus and he did call for a
>popular vote NOT in the comitia plebis tributa but in the Comitia
Centuriata
>which shows his honest intentions.
I say it was so easily that it was done illegally. A veto can only be issued
AFTER a measure is announced and never BEFORE. Our esteemed Tribunus Plebis
has tried to veto 'a priori' all censorial edicta related to gender, no
matter how competent or needed they can be. Fortunately, our esteemed
Tribunus Plebis will have to patiently wait for each Censorial measure to be
officially announced, after which he may CONSTITUTIONALLY issue intercessio
in a per-edictum basis if he finds the need.
>And Civil Wars are started because people
>derelict their duties and not because they exercise their constitutional
>rights.
As I've told you and I can prove with our Leges, the issued intercessio had
no legal support.
>I believe it is necessary to publicly support the institution of Tribune
>against an unnecessary attack by another magistrate (you signed your post
as
>praetor), when BOTH Tribunes try to act within their constitutional limits
>and NOT outside of it (and they may veto not only issued edicta but ANY
>action of other magistrates).
One Tribune has tried to act outside of his limits probably involuntarily. I
hope he is by now better informed.
>To define what a pseudo-case is, is not the praetor's sole prerogative.
Nor is it my intent. As you can see, other citizens have the same opinion.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Senator et Praetor
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RE: Praetor's voice on The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
RexMarcius@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:58:33 EDT |
|
Salve Praetor!
Maybe we should take this off-list, because now I will take this discussion
down to boring legal details:
This is what the Tribune wrote:
"In the meantime, as Tribunus Plebis I pronounce intercessio against
the currently unpublished version of this edict and against any action
by the Censors that would limit admission to citizenship of any person on
account of any gender-related issues, including the grammatical gender of
the prospective citizen's chosen name."
First: Publication is not as you seem to imply ("announced") a condition for
issuance of an edictum (see the respective Lex Vedia). There was - it seems -
a lot of uncertainty about the status of that new version, whether it was
already issued or not, so a veto by the Tribunes (collegially) at least gives
legal certainty, that the new version is certainly NOT valid.
Second: The Tribunes words can (in an interpretation in conformity with the
Constitution) very well be understood the way that he did NOT try to veto
future edicta but simply any other action of the Censors of a specific nature
(e.g. decisions on citizenship). As far as I know there is no time limit
regarding intercessio of other actions of magistrates, including decisions on
citizenships.
Third: A future edictum cannot be vetoed, I agree, it is in the Lex Vedia
(the same, with a different time limit applies for laws). But there is even a
good Roman historic example where future actions of a magistrate where not
allowed by his co-magistrate: Remember the story of Bibulus and Caesar? So it
is certainly not unthinkable to propose something like a future Veto
(although it is a bit far-fetched) for other things than laws and edicta.
Fourth: Not the Consuls, not the Praetors, not the Censors are the guardians
of the Constitution, the elected Tribunes are. Therefore their interpretation
is far more important and authoritative than yours in your official function.
Ave et Vale
Marcus Marcius Rex
Plebeian Civis
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Vetos |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:05:24 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salvete, Citizens;
In support of M.M. Rex, in the five times that I remember that Vetos
have been utilized in NR they have been exercised for the best possible
reasons, in the eyes of the Magistrates who exercised that perogative.
In each case there were distinct disagreements with that action and some
degree of criticism. That appears to me to be a very healthy indication
that the Constitution is working and the Magistrates are giving
attention to the affairs of state and are acting on thier own deeply
held convictions.
Vetos are easy for those not responsible for the issuing of them to
exercise, however they are a heavy responsibility indeed for those who
have the imperium.
I do not agree that such usage is cause for a doom and gloom prediction
, but rather the encouragemnet that your Magistrates care enough to be
responsive to the demands of thier positions, to which you, (the
collective you) the Citizens of Nova Roma elected them.
I do agree, however that the nation as a whole must watch the actions of
all Magistrates, support them if you feel they have done well, let them
know it when they have disappointed, but above all provide some
indication of the direction that you (the collective you) wish to go.
There is a saying my friends, that says Lead, Follow, or Get the
-----out of the Way!!!!! You have set the Magistrates upon thier
respective chairs, you have given them the authority to lead, now either
you indicate the direction, or you follow those whom you appointed. But
I ask that you not stand in the way of the progress that you desire, and
I ask that you remember that within he government that you approved are
the elements that take time and procedure to complete the action that
you want. If you don't understand what the delay, or hesitation is in
any given situation, before accusing the Magistrate whom you set in
place, you might wish to consider asking the person what the problem is,
as a simple matter of courtesy.
You might also consider the usage of snide remarks, uncomplimentary
names and comments intended to belittle the intelligence of the person
to whom you are speaking in the light of the same kind of remarks being
directed at yourself.
I as one Magistrate do not respond well at all to names like "Bull", or
"Mule" nor do I respond well to comments indicating that my ability to
comprehend your message is lower than average. While there are citizens
in Nova Roma, who have evidenced a high degree of sophistication in
their posts, I note that they are also invariably polite as well. I ask
you all to remember, that sarcasm, name-caliing, belittling comments /
nomenclature and rage have no place here. It is wounding to the Nation
as a whole and to the individuals involved, as well as disgusting to the
majority who recieve such. It is indicative that the sender is far more
the fool than the reciever, which diminishes, in my eyes at least, the
signifigance of the sender's message by a very great degree.
In closing, it is my view, that as long as the Magistrates view thier
responsibilities as important enough to take strong action to support
thier ideals, and that action is within the constraints of our Laws and
Consttituton we are in pretty good shape. You are the ones who point
the way, not by ones and twos but rather by majorities, with the
minority view protected. We must work out these problems that face us
with compromise, good sense, understanding the importance of the other
fellow's view, and the ability to stand back every now and then, not
take yourself too seriously and be able to laugh at your own antics as
well as those of others. We all make mistakes and one of the biggest
ones is to think our importance in the overall scheme of things is more
valuable than it really is.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RE: Praetor's voice on The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:24:16 +0100 |
|
Salve Marce Marci Rex
I respect your opinions in what regards vetos and other legal matters, as
well as your opinion about the competence of our esteemed Tribunus Plebis
Australicus when issuing the intercessio.
Nevertheless...
>Fourth: Not the Consuls, not the Praetors, not the Censors are the
guardians
>of the Constitution, the elected Tribunes are. Therefore their
interpretation
>is far more important and authoritative than yours in your official
function.
...I cannot agree with this statement. In my opinion all magistrates and the
Senate (maybe the Senate has even the highest responsibility) must be
guardians of the Constitution. If fact also the people must be a guardian of
the Constitution through the Comitia. All of them must comply with it and
defend it when needed.
It is possible that what is for a person a defense of the Constitution, can
be for another its corruption. Nevertheless, the resultant decision of the
whole system must be the right thing to do. That's why the powers are
balanced.
Ave et vale dignissime civis
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Senator et Praetor
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] RE: Praetor's voice on The "lone" Tribune; gender edict |
| From: |
RexMarcius@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:38:52 EDT |
|
Salve Praetor aestimate!
You are of course right that we all share a responsibility to guard the
constitution. My remark may have been a bit drastic and was only meant to
refer to the passage in the constitution, where it is written that the
Tribunes should "collegially pronounce intercessio against the actions of any
other magistrate (with the exception of the dictator and the interrex),
Senatus consulta (sic!), and laws passed by the comitia (sic !) when they
feel that the spirit and letter of this Constitution are being violated
thereby;"
This seems to imply that the Tribunes are entrusted by the Constitution with
a special "Guardian" task.
With regard to our esteemed Consul's Audens last post.....I thought that was,
what I did, tell the magistrate what I think of their actions and where I
stand...and I have also told Tribune Caesar (privately) my personal stance on
the subject matter.
But I will leave the rostrum now, I have certainly said more than enough
Ave et vale carissimi magistratus
Marcus Marcius Rex
Plebeian Civis
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Edictum - Appointment of Scribe |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 05 Jun 2000 13:31:48 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes
I hereby appoint Marcus Octavius Germancius, as my Censor Scribe to help
facilitate his work on website and specifically the Censor portion of
the change over. His work will make our job easier, and I hope that
once this process is complete the job of being Censor will be easier and
more flexible in the future.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] gender, names, and honesty |
| From: |
JustiniaCassia@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:09:58 EDT |
|
Salve,
It has been stated that the Gender Edictum is not discriminatory
as the name correlating to sex will "only" be used on official forms,
and people may publicly call themselves what they like. Yet
the Gender Edictum, requiring citizens to perpetuate a deceit by
registering under a name other than the one they intend to use,
creates a convenient bureaucratic lever for the harrassment of
transgendered people. Consider the following:
Citizen: Salve, Maria.
Fimbria: Salve, but I prefer to be called Marius, thanks.
Citizen: Oh yeah? Well, I'm going to call you Maria, because
that's the name on your official record. And I'm not
discriminating against you because I call everyone by the name on
their official record. To call yourself Marius when your
official record says Maria is dishonest.
Fimbria: But I only listed my name that way because I was
forced to!
Citizen: You still agreed to it, and a Roman must stand by his (or
in your case, her) agreements. If the official records say you are
Maria, then Maria you are.
In the macronational world, our parents bestow our names upon us.
When we become adults, we may keep those names or legally
change them as we see fit. There are no laws requiring parents to
give children names that match their sex. There are no laws
requiring adults to have names that match their sex. There are no
laws requiring parents or adults to spell names in a manner that
matches sex, or even to spell names in a conventional manner. There
are no laws requiring adults to adopt, in any capacity, however
slight, a name they find distasteful.
What is required is consistency. You have a legal name which you
use on all official documents until you change it. Dishonesty lies
not in failing to coordinate name with sex, but in listing one name
on legal documents while publicly using an alias. In Nova Roma,
listing the name a person wants to use, intends to use, and will
publicly use on the official form will not cause confusion, but will
actually prevent it. In the interest of clarity and honesty, a citizen
should list on official documents the name they're actually going to
use in public life.
Iustinia Cassia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] New Website |
| From: |
StarWreck@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:49:43 EDT |
|
Salvete,
I've just finished putting up the first page for www.starwreck.org
it no longer "Quick Links" to my Roman History website, but my Roman History
Website is one of its main topics. Suggestions? Comments?
Vale
Iulius Titinius
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Gender ad nauseam (The Curatrix Sermonem speaks) |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 05 Jun 2000 23:41:12 -0000 |
|
While it is not my intent to stifle debate on any subject connected
with the governance of Nova Roma, I do believe that the major
positions
on this issue have been stated and restated so many times that
Citizens
are becoming disgusted.
Thus, from your Curatrix Sermonem, not an order but a request: If you
wish to post on this topic, please consider carefully.
* Is your message intended primarily for one individual? If so, send
it
to him or her, not to all of us.
* Does your message add any real information (not opinion or
argument)
to the matters before us? Would someone reading it come away with a
favorable impression of you?
* Are you angry at the moment of posting? If the answer to this is
yes,
please DO NOT HIT SEND until you have waited at least 24 hours.
* If you do not like the current topics of conversation, the answer
lies in your own hands. Post something about something YOU want to
talk
about, preferably an open-ended question that will encourage
conversation.
Thank you!
Patricia Cassia
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Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.
Remember the good 'ol days
http://click.egroups.com/1/4053/6/_/61050/_/960248484/
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