| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Athenian Democracy. (long) |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:01:04 EDT |
|
Salve Quintus Fabius Maximus,
Great information! For my part, I say please continue!
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Citizen Participation |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:01:03 EDT |
|
On 6/26/00 9:43 AM Caius Flavius Diocletianus (3s@--------) wrote:
[snip!]
>I think you wrote this to my address, because I mentioned that we are not a
>democracy. This I posted after looking on modern democratic systems and the
>old roman republican system. I admit, the look on the modern system of NR was
>too short.
>
>Ok, some explanations. The political decisions in ancient times of the
>republic were then made by a class of nobles, called senators. The laws they
>prepared were disussed and decided in the comitiae. This is the same today
>in NR. But, you say the democratic system of NR is a representative one. This
>means that the decisions are made by the elected representatives. The
>comitiae are "chambers" of the people, not of the representatives. This is an
>element of direct democracy.
Unless I am mistaken, laws (leges) did not originate in the Senate. They
had to be originated in the comitiae. The Senate did sometimes provide
the impetus to the creation of a law in the form of a consultum. When I
said "representative," I was refering to the fact that our votes are not
directly and individually counted in deciding an issue, but are counted
toward determining the vote of each tribe/century. In a sense, it is the
tribe or century that casts it's vote. That really isn't either
representative democracy nor quite the same as the direct democracy of
the Athenians. You're right -- it's something in between. While the
magistrates are elected representatives, their actions don't really
constitute making law, or at least only the lowest ranking form of law.
>
>In ancient times only the citizens (which were men) living in Roma were
>involved in that process of decision. The citizens outside, in the country or
>in the provinces, were not able to take part in the decisions. So the
>decisions were made by a few citizens. This means, for my opinion, that the
>democratic element declined about the years, when the empire rose. Also the
>senators were not elected, but appointed by the censors. So they are not
>representatives. This are only the peoples tribunes, which were elected, but
>only by the plebeian people. This lacks democray, too. Magistrates were
>elected, but they were executive officers, not legislative men. Democracy,
>and furthermore, representative democracy, means that the people envolved in
>the legislative are elected.
I actually think that country dwellers also came to the city to vote --
not all, surely, but then surely all the city folk didn't bother to go
vote either. I think the weighting of the votes favored urban tribes over
rural tribes, so perhaps some of the rural citizens felt that it wasn't
worth the time and trouble.
>
>Today, we have got a network which allows us to establish wide ranging
>particitpation of all citizens. It can reach all people, and all, who are
>willing, can take part.
>
>Concluding, we have a quite different political system, compared with modern
>democracies. And, we have no representative democracy. We have a political
>system with good elements of direct and some elements of representative
>democracy. This does not mean, that it doesn't perform well. So, I admit, NR
>is more democratic than its older counterpart, which was of course a kind of
>oligarchy.
>
>Valete
>Caius Flavius Diocletianus
You make good points, Caius Flavius. Perhaps someone among us who is more
educated in the technicalities of describing political systems can
clarify for us what the proper terminology would be. It is certainly
democracy of a sort, since the assemblies of the citizens have a central
role.
As to Roma Antiqua, I think that it, too, was "in between" -- there were
always elements of the population struggling for more power in the hands
of the citizens, and there were those individuals who were convinced that
they or their clique should run things because of their "Patrician"
status or their family's historical stature, etc.. And then there were
those seeking to protect their own economic interests. The salient fact
of Roman political history seems to be that it was a system of dynamic
tension between opposing factions and interests, with one side dominant
at one time and others dominant at other times. Perhaps that is what Nova
Roma also will be.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Citizen Participation |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:01:01 EDT |
|
Salve Lucius Cornelius
I don't think you can "correct" an error I didn't make. I don't believe I
ever stated that Nova Roma was not a republic -- that should certainly
have been clear since it has been publically posted and discussed for the
life of the Republic. What I stated is that it is a democracy. I thought
it best described as a representative democracy, but as has since been
pointed out, the word representative doesn't fit well.
Magistrates (except for the Senate) are elected by the citizens to take
care of the business of the Republic. The laws of the Republic are made
by the citizens voting in their tribes and centuries. Sounds like
democracy to me. If you think it is not a democratic republic, please say
so and explain to us why that might be true. I believe you have some
education in the area of Political Science, so perhaps there are some
niceties of political science terminology applicable here of which I am
unaware.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust.
On 6/26/00 6:13 AM Lucius Cornelius Sulla (alexious@--------) wrote:
>Salvete Omnes
>
>I too am pleased that there is a discussion about citizen participation! It
>is my true hope that more citizens take a more active involvement in every
>avenue of Nova Roman Life. However, I must correct an error of our Tribune
>of the Plebs. We are most definately a Republic. As stated in the Preamble
>of the Constitution,
>
>"As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic and Empire, Nova Roma
>shall endeavor to exist, in all manners practical and acceptable, as the
>modern restoration of the ancient Roman Republic."
>
>To me this means that we are trying to recreate and restore the traditional
>way the government was done in ancient Rome. Obviously we have made some
>changes to the way the government is done. Such as having a written
>Constitution, modifying various political positions and such. But, when it
>come to analyzing what type of government we have it is truly a Republic. I
>believe that we are a true Republic, unlike the United States version of a
>Representative Democracy because of this primary reason. Our Senate is very
>different, once you are a Senator, you do NOT have to run for reelection, it
>is a lifetime position. In the United States, Senators and Representatives
>have to continually run for reelection and that brings the democracry tones
>back into an otherwise truly Republican system.
>
>Now, some people have claimed that there are Oligarchial elements to the
>present system of government. I am honestly surprised at that. Given last
>year when we had only 5 Senators. The Senate alone has grown over 300%!
>Please citizens, go back to the archieves at www.egroups.com and compare Nova
>Roma last year to this year and see just how much improvement has been
>completed. Compare the old Constitution to the one currently in affect.
>
>Once you analyze the differences, now look at the magistrates. See what they
>are trying to accomplish and why they are doing what they are doing. Ask
>them. If you disagree with what they are doing. Get involved, there is
>NOTHING preventing any citizen from political, religious or social
>involvement. But, if you are going to complain about magisterial
>indifference, then get involved and try to make NR in an image that suites
>you. And, not to seek your sympathy, but if you think you can do a better
>job, then run for the office and get elected. See exactly what its like.
>Most of the political positions in Nova Roma are alot of hard work with alot
>of issues and very little in terms of reward execpt for self-fulfillment.
>
>As a magistrate in Nova Roma, my personal beliefs are to help the Republic
>grow. By my devotion of time and effort, I am doing what I can to help guide
>non-citizens to a point when they are active and accepted members in Nova
>Roma. This means answering questions, helping them complete the application
>process and giving them a heads up in various avenues they can participate in
>Nova Roma. When we get a new applicant approved I am extremely happy.
>Because that is another potential citizen who might one day be a future
>Pontiff, Consul or Senator. Maybe that individual might create a Sodalias?
>But, without spending time with that person, helping them by answering their
>questions or concerns, that might not happen. As a citizen you have a civic
>duty to fulfill your beliefs of what a citizen is. If that means that you
>are only interested in the Religio, thats fine. But, as a citizen, you have
>a right to participate! If you are going to complain that NR isnt going in
>the direction you want it too, then you must use your right to participate in
>a way to help foster the change you want.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor
certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson <amgunn@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:47:55 -0500 |
|
Bona Fortuna Nova Romanni!
Venator scripsit:
I've started (yes, ANOTHER one) a list on eGroups for the Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus.
The following URL will get you to the main page. I've included some of the main page info.
If you've not been to eGroups before, you'll need to sign up, but being a member of the
NR Main list should have done it already.
I'll be checking this list daily for messages and performing upkeep once per sevenday.
In Amicus - Venator, Dominus Sodalis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq
Founded June 24, 2000
Description: This is the list for members of Nova Roma's Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus.
One need not be a Citizen to join this list, but have an interest in cooking,
brewing, vinting, dining and sharing what you know, about Roman cooking,
plus that of cultures with which Rome had contact.
Historical accuracy is always appreciated, but creative (and tasty) "modernisms"
are also welcome.
Moderated with a light hand, but let courtesy and good cheer prevail!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Options:
•Listed in directory
•Restricted membership
-One must subscribe and be either Nova Roman or a sincere interested party-
•Unmoderated
-Though I do reserve the right to act as bouncer, if needed-
•All members may post
•Primary language: English
•Archives for members only
•Email attachments, not permitted
-Though, like the Main List, there is a file area-
Category: Top : Society : History : Recreation and Reenactment : Living History
Addresses:
Post message : Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq@--------
Subscribe : Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq-subscribe@--------
Unsubscribe : Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq-unsubscribe@--------
List owner : Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq-owner@--------
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Old T. Pickups for Pastor S.Payne |
| From: |
"M G" <fresco@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:48:29 +0300 |
|
----- Original Message -----
From: Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, 26 June, 2000 5:07 AM
Subject: Old T. Pickups, was Re: [novaroma] Pastor S.Payne
> Ave Marcus Prometheus,
> Venii hic:
> Thou art a Wag and a Raconteur!
> A nicely researched piece of humor, like the letter to Dr. Laura I saw.
> In Felicitas - Venii
Paying homage to the ancient latin motto:
"Castigat Ridendo Mores"
I joked, BUT in the mean time, I quoted everything correctly.
Valete Omnes
Marcus Prometheus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Oath of Office |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:49:03 +0200 |
|
Salvete, Quirites.
It´s late, but I think not too late to swear the Oath of Office. I
apologise to Nova Roma for that delay.
I, Matthias Stappert / Caius Flavius Diocletianus, do hereby solemnly
swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Caius Flavius Diocletianus swear
to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.
I, Caius Flavius Diocletianus swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act
in a way that would
threaten its status as the State Religion.
I, Caius Flavius Diocletianus, swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Caius Flavius Diocletianus further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Legatus Germaniae to
the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Legatus Germaniae and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.
Valete, most respectfully
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Legatus Germaniae
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Roman Music |
| From: |
swcelt@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:07:00 -0000 |
|
Does anyone know where one can purchase a CD of traditional Roman
music ?
Scott Williams,
Romanized Celt
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Athenian Democracy. (long) |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 27 Jun 2000 15:52:19 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Q. Fabius;
Your history was quite interesting. It cleared up a lot of niggling
points that I have always wondered about. Excellent effort--I should be
most happy to enjoy any further items that you may wish to contibute.
Vale, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Roman Music |
| From: |
Lykaion1@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 27 Jun 2000 16:04:53 EDT |
|
I don't think you can. From what I have read on the liner notes of a CD of
ancient Greek music, only a fragment of a piece of ancient Roman music has
survived.
Gaius Festus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Athenian Democracy |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:43:30 GMT |
|
Salvete, Omnes:
I printed out the post re Athenian Democracy of yesterday by Consul Fabius
Maximus and read it over coffee this morning.
I found it well written and very interesting. I have never read up on early
Greek political dynamics prior to this.
Thank you for the post, Consul.
Valete,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: website design |
| From: |
"C Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:48:50 -0400 |
|
Salvete C Ponti et alii
>
>My idea is that we remove the current ones on the main page
>(http://www.novaroma.org/main.html) and replace them with edited versions
>of the image of the flag that we have in the Macellum
>(http://www.novaroma.org/macellum/flags.html). We could place two on each
>side at the top of the page.
This is one of those many areas in which I have no expertise, so I can't
really determine whether what you propose makes sense. I encourage you to
get in touch with Antonius Gryllus Graecus, Curator Araneae (you can find
his e-mail address either in the Magistrates list or the album senatorium).
It would be his call to implement your suggestions or not, and he may be
able to involve you in organizing the site as a scriba, if that is of mutual
interest to you.
If you don't get a substantial response right away, please be patient -- the
Senate is in session, and Senator Graecus has a lot of religious and
administrative responsibilities.
>
>I have made some preliminary version of the flags we might use if they are
>needed.
Perhaps you could post this to the novaroma files area at egroups? This
would give all interested a chance to look at your work.
>
>I don't mean to step on any toes, over all the website is very clear and
>presents the information it is supposed to in a clear way.
Constructive suggestions shouldn't hurt anyone's toes.
>
>
>
Valete
C Marius Merullus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Anybody interested in a London Nova Roma group.? |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:25:39 +0100 |
|
Salve, mi Marce Etrusce!
As the good Praefectus P. Claudius Lucentius Severus said, I've been away,
for a much-needed rest in the country.
> Is anybody in either the South-East of England or London in a Nova Roma
> Freindly society where we can discuss the re-creation of our Romanic
Identity
> in Britain
There are a few of us, all contactable through: Britannia@-------- You
will be pleased to learn that we are not merely discussing it, we are doing
it :-).
>and also the political possibilities of the Micronation creating a regional
Autonomy
I'm not sure what you mean by this (though if your name were Carausius or
Maxentius I might have begun to worry). Would you care to clarify this
statement, please? Nova Roma's provinciae are already about as autonomous as
you can get, without losing equality under one Constitution, free trade and
the wholesome and civilising influence of full membership of a cosmopolitan
society; in other words, without losing the manifold benefits of being part
of an empire.
> taking as our model Cornwall which had to basically revive its identity
In my personal view, human communities seem continually to re-invent
themselves: I am not sure I can always see the necessity. I applaud the
resurrection of the Cornish language, but I cannot see the late Roman
Dumnonii as paragons of Romanitas (except perhaps when compared with their
West Seaxe foederati neighbours) :-).
> or Catalonia which is a strong model of regional autonomy.?
Would that be the part of Catalonia which is in France, or the part which is
under Spanish government?
>Like a Romanic Mercia or wessex Movement?
These are politico-cultural oxymorons, I think.
> A professor friend of mine is involved in the recreation of a Latin based
English using Iberian >Runes which used to exist in Britain.
UK English already has about 40% Latin-derived words. A substantial number
of these came into use during the burgeoning philosophical and scientific
intellectual climate of the 18thC., as did many words of Greek origin. If
one counts these too (in the same way as you would have to include Greek
loan-words in Classical latin), then I reckon the percentage would top 50%
as it is. However, the Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) majority of the remainder,
together with the way grammatical tenses are formed (especially the future
tenses), arguably put the monoglot Anglophone's thoughts into a matrix which
is culturally Northern European in thought, rather than Mediterranean. Would
such a recreation involve a return to inflexion-based, rather than
syntactical, grammar, and if so, would the Latin or Old English inflexions
be used? Or both?
Now, these 'Iberian Runes': this is entirely new to me. Are they related to
the Futhork, or to Ogham (in which some very late Latin inscriptions do
exist, chiefly in West Wales), or perhaps to an innovative interpretation of
Neolithic rock art?
> Is anybody interested or does a group like this already exist if so when
and where does it meet.?
Well. amice, I'm interested to learn more about where you're coming from. We
generally meet en masse only virtually, on the Britannia List, but some of
us will be with the Second Augustan Legion at Rockbourne Villa, near
Fordingbridge in Hampshire, in August. I'll mail you details if you like.
> Separate from this is anybody on the list interested in the Trojans and
the reality of the Roman origins from them ? and does anybody have any
interest in or knowledge of the Thracians and of the Thracian auxillaries
and connections in Britain. ?
I spent a year of my current degree course studying the so-called 'Homeric
Question', and occasionally ponder the basis for the Aeneas legend - tho'
not to much profit as my knowledge of Italic pre-Roman archaeology is as yet
almost non-existent. Thracian auxiliaries in the Roman Army in Britain is
another interest of mine but again, not one on which I am knowledgeable.
Feel free to join the NR Brits. on the Britannia List, and/or mail me
privately, to discuss any of the above.
Bene vale,
N. Moravius Vado
Propraetor Britanniae.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Citizen Participation |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 27 Jun 2000 19:44:06 EDT |
|
Salvete Quirites
It is somewhat disconcerting, but understandable from experience, that
thus far this entire string has been between mostly magistrates. The whole
reason I am writing at all is to present a perspective from a new citizen.
The discussion over whether NR is a republic or a democracy is really
meaningless. First, because those terms are so loaded with conflicting
connotations that they have little meaning today. We must recognize that NR
is composed of many individuals from different countries, cultures and
experiences and that such political words simply lose their meaning in such
contexts. What democracy means in the United States is quite different from
what it means in Cuba, and yet both are just as valid. Our concern in NR
should not be with titles for our system but rather with building a
functioning system.
In the Sixties we use to talk about participatory democracy; that someday
we would have the technology by which each member of the society would have
the means to directly participate in the decision-makng process of their
government. We could do away with the senate and the congress and just have
the people vote on everything. Well, there are major flaws in that idea. The
discussion that has been going on between the magistrates in this string has
concerned itself with one of those flaws. In practice participatory
democracy means that those interested enough to become involved run things,
and most people just aren't interested.
Where I have had most of my experience with participatory democracy was
not with those student organizations of the sixties and seventies that I
participated in (SDS, SWC), nor with any of the advocacy organizations to
which I still belong or support (ACLU, NOW, AFS, VITW), and certainly not
with all the various government agencies I have worked for, at every level of
government. Rather it has been within a few labor unions.
How a union actually functions is that there is a very small core of
dedicated people who do all the work. Once a month they hold a meeting where
any member can come and complain, and maybe even vote, but the actual
operation and direction of the local on a day to day basis is performed by
those few who have the interest to do so. They also get the most complaints
about how things are being handled. NR seems to me to be most like a labor
union in the way it is organized and functions.
To make it more of a participatory local, first it becomes a necessary
matter for this dedicated group to educate its membership. Second, they have
to find ways for other members to participate and then ask individuals to
take certain positions of responsibility. You can not wait for individuals
to volunteer their services. Left to themselves most members will only sit
back and allow others to work for them. The dedicated group must go out and
recruit from among the membership to become dedicated members to the
organization.
Weird scenario isn't it? But that is the case. In every organization I
have ever been in, it has become necessary for the leadership to practically
beg the members to participate. (Right now there is a certain president of my
local chapter of NOW hunting me down, but I am not about to stand out in the
July heat handing out coffee at a highway rest stop.)
To make NR have a citizenship that does participate, and wants to
participate, the magistrates can not sit back and wait for volunteers. They
need to go and ask citizens to do things. Just little things. They don't
have to get citizens to commit themselves to a year's service or even a
month, not in a committee or hosting a panel. "Hey, why not start your own
soldatis?" No, it should not be that way; just little things. Have them go
look up this or that, and then report back in a day or two. You need to seed
the citizens and nurture their participation in the administration. It's not
like a draft or serving jury duty, but every citizen should be made aware
that they have civic responsibilities and must be brought into the process of
making their government function.
The main point to be made is that we have the opportunity here to build
something unique, to define something new. A society that transcends
political boundaries and geography, one based on friendship and common
interests rather than ethnicity. Rather than looking for older definitions
we should be considering forming our own. Everything we do or do not do,
whether a magistrate or a citizen, from now on should be considered with the
gravity of setting precedents for the future. We are not the democratic
republic of a new Rome. We are the Res Publica of Nova Roma, and it is up to
all citizens to define exactly what that means.
Valete
Gn. Moravius Piscinus
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