Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Marcus Cornelius Scriptor - New Pontiff of Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:24:51 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Pontiff Marcus Cornelius Scriptor;

Although I am not of the Roman Religio let me offer my most sincere
congratulations on your appointment. I have some small knowledge of the
work that the College Of Pontiffs puts into their selection procedure
and I am impressed with your selection. I honor you sir, for your
position and for your dedication to your faith and to your desire to
serve Nova Roma in this way. I hope that we may have the opportunity to
meet and work together in future endeavors.

Vale, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Military Step
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:28:21 EDT

Gn. Morvaius Piscinus N. Moravi Vado et Q. Fabi Maximi et alii S.P.D.

M. Vado scripsit:
<< "...twenty miles with the military step should be done in five hours,
in summer only, with the full step, which is quicker, twenty-four miles
should be completed in the same number of hours...">>

F. Maximus scripsit:
<<"The summer had a longer day, so the field force could march further. (We
call this a forced march, today.) Of course with mechanization we don't use
it.">>

Converting Roman miles into English miles, Vegetius' pace becomes 18 to
22 miles in a five hour period.
By Comparison:
Gustavus Adolphus marched 20, 000 men to Naumburg in 1632 averaging 10
miles a day in what was a"race" to seize bridgeheads over the Halle.
Turenne, falling back on his logistical lines in 1672, averaged 6.7 miles
a day with 23,000 men.
Marlborough, breaking free of his logistical train "raced" from the Rhine
to the Danube with 30,000 men in his famed campaign of 1704, averaging 6.9 -
9.7 miles per day.
Fredrick the Great, with a well trained, highly drill professional army
managed average march rates of 11.5 miles a day in Sept. 1757; 16.1 miles per
day, Nov. 1757; 20 miles a day, Sept. 1758; and 14.3 miles a day in Sept.
1759.
Napoleon's best planned, best supplied campaign, into Russia in 1812
averaged at best 10 miles per day.
During the American Civil War Lee's Army of Northern Virginia in the
Antietam Campaign, 1862, managed a leisurely pace of 5.6 miles per day, while
McClellan, whom historians have wrongly accused of suffering the "Slows" in
this same period, did better than twice that pace. Even Jackson's "Foot
Cavalry" in top form during the Valley Campaign managed only 11.3 miles a day.
In 1866-1870 the Prussians considered that their armies could march no
further than 12.5 mile per day because of the restrictions imposed by horse
drawn supplies. Theoretically they could double that distance by using
double columns, but would not be able to sustain such a pace the deeper they
advanced, and they were always limited by the number of roads available.
Even using railroads to move troops, they averaged only 29 miles a day for a
corps. The dispersal of the Prussian army in a wide arc of deployment
against Austria in 1866 was mainly due to the restrictions imposed by the
railroad and road networks on their logistics, more than on any strategic
considerations.
Leading up to 1914 the Schleiffen Plan required the Right Wing to make a
lighting sweep in a complicated wheeling movement onto the French Northern
flank. The planned paced was 10 miles a day. The German 1 Army managed to
average 20 miles a day in its march through Belgium, the average fell to
around 4 miles a day by the time they reached the Marne, for a total campaign
average of 11 miles a day.
The "mechanized" German Army of 1940 never outperformed their fathers'
1914 pace. And by 1941, when they were seasoned veterans, Manstein, moving
the smallest, best supplied wing of the German Army into Russia against
Lenigrad, where the road system was the most developed, managed 18-23 miles
per day for its mechanized elements, while its foot infantry lagged far
behind.

In none of the examples given were the armies expected to march their
daily route in only five hours. It does not matter how long the daylight
was, or whether the army is mechanized, horse supplied or simply marches on
foot, there are limits to what may be expected from any military force. The
larger the force, the greater the difficulties.
I would have to question Vegetius reliability on this. Is he speaking
about a sustained march, under what circumstances, and how large of a force
is he referring to? Did the Romans expect and accept large portions of their
forces straggling so that they needed to keep a march down to five hours in
order to regroup? And what examples do we have of actual marches rather than
what Vegetius theorizes? By comparison Cicero is given as a source for the
pace of an individual making a dash using a relay of cisiis in 80 bce
covering 52 miles in "ten nocturnal hours," a pace by horse cart of 7 mph.
Marching even a small unit would amount to being more complicated and a pace
of 4-5 mph for foot troops just seems to me a little too much to ask except
in the most rarest of circumstances.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Military Step
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:53:36 EDT

In a message dated 7/9/2000 7:35:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Piscinus@-------- writes:

<< Napoleon's best planned, best supplied campaign, into Russia in 1812
averaged at best 10 miles per day. >>
During the 1814 campaigns the French were averaging 18.5 miles a day force
marching. During the valley campaign of 1862 "Foot Cavalry" actually came
close to the Roman norm of 15 miles a day, however this was English miles
which are longer then Roman miles. But as Jackson himself said, "My men
straggle badly"
Based on all the data available I'd say 16 Roman miles a day was a good march.
QFM

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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Fiction, chapter 3
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:59:51 EDT

THE INQUIRY

Chapter III: Reunion

The man lay sprawled out on the bed on his stomach, his head turned
sideways, resting on an arm. His middle aged maid, Tertia, crept into the
darkened room and tapped his shoulder. "Master Lykaion? Are you awake now
sir?" The figure on the bed gave a faint groan, and raised his head, peering
at the source of the voice. "Are you well sir?", Tertia asked, quietly. The
tired voice answered. "Yeah....sit down Tertia." The man sat up and rubbed
his eyes, trying to shake off the sleep. Tertia pulled open the window
drapes, bathing the room with light. The man quickly covered his face.
"Bright!"
"Sunlight usually is sir," Tertia replied, ignoring his offer for her to sit
down. "It's almost midmorning. Now I've drawn your bath, and left food on
the table. I would have washed the clothes you wore yesterday, but..."
"But what?", asked the man.
"You're still wearing them sir."
"Oh."
Gaius Lupinius Festus looked down at his feet, saw one sandal on, the other
gone.
"Where's my other sandal?" Tertia shrugged. "Probably under the bed sir.
It usually is." He got down on the floor, and after some reaching, found
the missing shoe. Then he remembered: "Aren't you off today?", he asked his
maid. "Yes sir, but I had to make sure you were still alive first." It was
a mild rebuke, her way of chiding him for not taking better care of himself.
Tertia shook her head. The Christians worship a man they said rose again
from the dead. That's nothing. Tertia resurrected the dead everyday. Gaius
Lupinius smiled and from a small dressing table pulled out a few small coins.
"Go away, and get something nice for yourself," he said, pressing the coins
into her hand. "For action above and beyond the call of duty!" Tertia
nodded. "Well, thank you sir." She turned to go, stopped at the bedroom
door. "I'll be back tomorrow morning." He waved to her, and she was gone.
Gaius Lupinius went over to look out the bedroom window. This was a
view he liked. Beyond the town and the docks was the shimmering blue
Mediterranean Sea, a vast ocean which separated him from the life he left
behind. Small fishing boats glided across his view, and one large trireme
approaching from the west. It had a Roman sail.
He would learn more about who or what was on the ship from his friends at the
dock later in the day.

Gaius Lupinius Festus was a Roman by birth. Thanks to his families real
estate holdings and shares in some mines in Spain, he had money enough to
live a life of leisure in Caesarea, the provincial capital of Judea province.
But his life was in many respects modest and unassuming. He lived alone in
a small townhouse, with bedroom and bath upstairs, kitchen, dining room, a
small study, and atrium downstairs. One could enter the house through the
main entrance facing a residential street, or through a rear door opening up
into a small walled garden. His family, the Lupinii, was ancient. Legend had
it that his ancestors were among the first priests to officiate at the
Lupercalia, hence the name Lupinius. Despite their ancient lineage, the
Lupinii never produced 'great men', the movers and shakers who led the way in
the rise of Rome. Yet they were always there. Lupinii served in the Punic
Wars, and many fell at Cannae. They were there in the social wars, served
under Gaius Marius in the Jugerthine and German wars. But the Lupinii had
dwindled in numbers over the generations. This was due largely to two their
tendency to produce more girls than boys, who would then marry into other
families, and to their uncanny ability to choose the losing sides in civil
wars. The Lupinii had more than one home in Italy, but as a boy, Gaius
Lupinius grew up in a townhouse near the Aventine. Next door lived Marcus
Cassius Julianus, who along with Metellus Sergius Draco were his closest
friends. They learned Latin, Greek, and history from the same tutor, took
part in games on the Campus Martius, and had expeditions in the parks. He
remembered fondly those days, little Patricia falling into a stream, playing
pranks on Cassius' sister, Justinia. Those were the happy years, the years
before the darkness fell. "Arsinoe". Gaius shut his eyes and quickly tried
to bury the memory. Arsinoe was the beginning of the end of his Roman life.
She was from a provincial family, who arrived in Rome when her brother was
sent there to be educated. For a time she was part of his circle of friends.
Justinia introduced her to the rest of group, and she and Gaius became very
fond of her. But it was Rome which destroyed her, the same Rome in which
family ties and friendships increasingly meant nothing in the never ending
struggles in the games of power politics. Gaius Lupinius was fifteen years
old when she died, and in the years following he became increasingly fearful
and withdrawn. First was the execution of Appius Silanus by the Emperor
Claudius on fabricated charges arranged by the Empress Messallina. Then the
death of another man he admired, Valerius Asiaticus, again arranged by the
Empress. Once, at a social event, the Empress greeted him with a smile and
engaged him in small talk. In truth, Messallina's approach was merely public
relations, that of being sociable. But poor Gaius believed she would try to
ensnare him in some insidious plot, and she, if he refused, would arrange his
end as she had with so many others. It took both Cassius and Justinia, as
well as a skin of Campanian wine, to calm him down. But he had had enough,
saw threats and dangers even where they did not exist, and made secret
preparations for his departure. When the time came, he made no farewells.
Instead, he sent a note to his friends and to the senate informing them he
was leaving and would not be back. The letters were not yet delivered when
he was under sail for the eastern provinces. That was fourteen years ago.
Now, he wished only to be left in peace in the east. He took a Greek name,
Lykaion, and kept no Roman customs. Even his clothing was different. The
long pants worn by some of the Arabs and a long tunic tied with his money
belt, and an outer light cloak was his usual dress.
He let his hair grow long in the back, just below the neck, and occasionally
wore the headdress of the Syrians. He kept himself happy in Caesarea, for in
the capital there was much to do. There was a theater and a circus, a
library, and the long walks through the city and in the suburbs which he
enjoyed. And, of course, the all night parties at Sulla's notorius 'tavern',
a glorified brothel with music, dancing girls, and an endless flow of wine.
It was from just such a night that Gaius Lupinius Festus was now recovering,
as he left his townhouse and went into the street.

"Julia? Good morning! Are you busy?" "Lykaion!", Julia Isidora
greeted as she rose from her gardening outside the small temple of Isis where
she served as a priestess. Gaius handed her the flowers he had found in the
market, and she accepted them happily. "They're lovely!" she exclaimed,
admiring them. "For the goddess?" she asked, and then shrugged. "I guess
so. I don't imagine you would be bringing them to me!" Gaius Lupinius
feigned a look of shock. "But you are a priestess! You are supposed to be
set apart from us ordinary mortals!"
"We are allowed to marry, Lykaion. Granted, it should be to a priest, but
still..."
Gaius tried to get unentangled from this line of conversation. "You are on
too high a pedestal for one such as I," he said, flirting. "So learn to
climb," was her retort. Julia Isidora always had an answer for him during
these talks they had as he passed by the shrine to She of a Thousand Names.
"Actually," he said, trying to get off the subject, "I wanted to settle what
I owed you. Have the girls been by?"
"Yes, Lykaion, they have. They're doing very well."
"Good. Maybe this will cover the expense?" He offered her a small bag of
coin. She didn't reach out for it. "Gaius, this isn't necessary", she said,
reverting to calling him by his Roman name. "And besides, I like their
company."
But he insisted. "Still, take it for the effort. If you don't want it, just
put it in the fund you keep for them." He held the bag out to her, and she
relented. "Alright. Thank you. " She took the bag and weighed it in her
hand for a moment. "Gaius, have you ever considered initiation into Her
mysteries? Many people do, you know."
He shrugged off the suggestion. "I'm not a religious man, Julia. I never
really was, I suppose."
"And yet you visit Her shrine and bring Her offerings," she replied,
searching him out. Gaius peered in through the open door of the small square
temple, looking at image of the Lady with Her sistrum in one hand and a vase
in the other. "I like the old gal," he answered, deliberately familiar,
trying to head off any more personal questions from Julia. "She stands for
pleasant things. She's peaceful. I can appreciate her for that." "It is
enough to start with, Gaius," she said softly. "She is the universal
goddess, the goddess of a thousand names. Everyone, from kings and emperors
to the lowest slave can turn to Her. She is the Goddess of the Romans, the
Greeks, the Egyptians, Gauls, Germans...She's even Goddess of the Jews.
Only, the Jews don't know that yet!" Gaius laughed. "I wouldn't try telling
them that, if I were you!" She grinned. "I won't if you won't. But Gaius,
I do hope that whatever it is you are running from, you will find it in your
heart to turn to Her. She won't abandon you." He nodded, shifted from one
foot to another, uncomfortable with the closeness. "I have to go." He
reached out and took one of the roses from the bouquet for Isis, and offered
it to her. "For you lady". She smiled and accepted the gift, and gave him
one in return. "May Isis and Serapis go with you, in whatever you do, Gaius."

He arrived at the docks at about noon. Something had happened there,
for a large group of spectators was breaking up, and several soldiers were
milling about. He spied one he knew, and called out to him. "Lupus!"
Lucius Vatinus Lupus turned at the sound of his name, recognized the caller,
and waved to him to come over. "What happened?", Gaius asked, running over.
"New procurator arrived!", Lupus replied, excited. "Well, that's long
overdue," said Gaius. Lupus nodded, "Yes sir indeed. May finally get some
decent government. By the way Gaius...you have a flower in your hand!"
"Very observant, Lupus. Two more promotions and you'll be an idiot.
Anything else arrive?"
"Nah. Just two senators from Rome. On holiday I take it. Where did you get
the flower?"
"From a beautiful woman, Lupus. No wine from Campania?"
"No, no wine."
"No new dancing girls for Sulla's place?"
"No, no girls, sorry."
Gaius Lupinius shook his head. "No wine, no dancing girls...don't you ever
have any good news Lupus? What good are you in the eyes of gods or men???"
"I thought I did have good news!", the young soldier whined. "I told you
about the arrival of the new procurator!" Gaius shook his head emphatically.
"No, that is not GOOD news! That's just...news. He'll probably be as
worthless as the others." Lucius Vatinus nodded at the possibility. "I hope
he is not too much of a taskmaster for you," said Gaius. Lucas started to
laugh. "No, no....you don't know what a tough commander is until you have
had Quintus Fabius Maximus as your centurion!"
"Quintus Fabius Maximus?", asked Gaius.
"Quints Fabius Maximus," Lucius replied. "One of the most evil men to walk
the earth! When I enlisted a bunch of us recruits were assigned to him."
Lucius puffed himself up, lowered his voice, and began imitating his old
centurion. "'I am Quintus Fabius Maximus, your centurion. But you will not
address me by that name. You are not worthy to address my by that name! To
you ladies my name is 'YES CENTURION'. Unless I give you permission to say
otherwise, you will address me in that manner. Now if you survive me, if you
can pass my muster, you will be Roman soldiers, one of Caesar's own. But
until that day comes, Caesar does not want you. Your mothers do not want
you!' Now I made the mistake of smiling because I thought this man was
hilarious, until he sees me smiling and then sticks his face in mine and
says, 'What is your name little girl?' 'Lucius Vatinus Lupus, Centurion!'
'Well, LUCIA, why are you smiling at me? Do you think I'm cute? Do you
think I'm pretty?' 'No centurion!' 'Then you think I'm UGLY, is that it?
Damnit, I've never been so insulted in my life! Well, boy, from now on your
name is LUCIA, and the rest of you pretty little ladies are all going to take
the FEMININE form of your name until you are worthy to be called soldiers.
If your name is Valerius, you are now Valeria! If any soldier or officer
speaks to you, will identify yourselves by the female name! And you can all
thank Lucius Lupa here for that, because he just insulted me to my face,
telling me I was ugly, when I was going out of my way to be nice to him!'
Needless to say, I was not popular with the others for a while. Then the
next day for work detail, he shows us a moat ditch, and says, 'Do you see
this moat? I love this moat. This is my favorite moat! My mother gave me
this moat! And you ladies are going to move this moat thirty paces in that
direction, without damaging it!' So we worked on it and broke our backs on
it, and then when it is finished, he comes over, takes a look, and says,'Oh,
it looks awful there. Put it back where it was!'"
"Damn!", whistled Gaius Lupinius. "I'll never take civilian life for granted
again!"

He went home in the late afternoon, and entered through the rear
courtyard. The sound of a nearby fountain was relaxing for him, and so Gaius
lay down on a small bench, and stared upward at the wispy clouds gliding by.
Soon it would be time to get ready for Sulla's party. But there would be
enough time to catch some sleep first. A breeze from the sea swept over him,
and he began to doze off, into that fuzzy middle ground between sleep and
wakefulness.

"Gaius?"

The voice startled him, and he bolted upright, spinning around toward the
direction of the voice. He stopped, frozen, when he saw them. There, inside
his garden gate, stood Cassius, Patricia, Justinia, and Draco. Gaius' mouth
dropped open slightly, and he could not even begin to speak. Cassius had a
broad smile on his face. "Gaius! It's me! After all these years, I finally
caught up to you!" Gaius Lupinius Festus could only stare in amazement.
"Cassius...oh my god".
Cassius put out his hands. "Gaius, aren't you happy to see me?" "Am I happy
to see...oh my god, Cassius!", Gaius cried as he ran over and threw his arms
around his friend. "Damn Cassius...it is so good to see you! And Patricia!
You have grown to be quite the beauty!" Patricia blushed. "It's good to see
you too, Gaius!" He looked at Justinia, and she simply nodded to him.
"Gaius" she said, without much emotion. She still held against him his
abrupt departure from Rome. Draco came forward and seized his arm. "I am
glad you are well Gaius!" Gaius was finding it difficult to find the right
words. "Patricia and I are married, Gaius!", Cassius announced proudly,
putting his arm around his wife. Gaius shook his head in wonder. "Married!
I am so happy for the both of you". He took Patricia's hand and kissed it.
"Patricia is a gem Cassius. Take good care of her! Hey! Sit down, all of
you! That's what garden benches are for." They all sat, and all wondered
what to say next. Gaius started. "So, how did you find me?" "You're still
registered as a Roman citizen", Cassius answered. "I just looked up your
registry at the Praetorium. We all arrived today."
"So you are the two senators I was told had come, in the company of the new
Procurator", Gaius replied. "I had no idea it could be...So, are you here on
business?" Cassius shook his head. "Well, not officially. Porcius Festus
asked me to help him get settled into his new post. Nothing official. We are
all on vacation, actually. I just went to the Praetorium today to pick up
some briefings, summaries of legal cases, things like that. I'll be his
unofficial advisor for the next few weeks."
"So Porcius Festus is the new Procurator, eh? We may actually have some
decent government for a change."
"I hope so," Cassius answered.
Gaius nodded, trying to think of something to talk about. "So, how is your
father Cassius?" Cassius looked down, hesitated. "Well, father died three
years ago, Gaius." Gaius felt a flush of embarrassment. When his parents
had died, Cassius had been there for him. The memory ignited a small flame
of guilt inside him. "I am so sorry for that Cassius," he said. "I liked
your father very much." "Yes, he was the best Roman of us all", Cassius
answered evenly. Cassius sensed Gaius' discomfort, and sought somehow to
find another subject. He came for a reunion of old friends, not to break
open old wounds. He peered through the doorway of the house into the
atrium, and noticed there was no Penates there. The absence took him with
slight surprise. Looking at his old friend's attire, he tried to inject some
levity into the conversation. "Your clothes," he said, pointing, "they make
an....interesting outfit! The latest in barbarian fashions?" Cassius tried
to force a slight laugh, felt stupid instead. Gaius just grinned and shook
his head, not looking at his old friend. "So", Cassius said, clearing his
throat nervously, "you've given up your Roman heritage then?" He immediately
wanted to kick himself for saying it. The reunion was too awkward now.
Cassius had wanted to renew old ties, but instead was now faced with the
immense gulf separating the two men. On the one hand, there was Cassius, who
loved being a Roman. He was proud of his heritage, and loved Rome and it's
temples, it's culture, the exhilaration of public service in the senate. And
there across from him was Gaius Lupinius Festus, who grew to hate Rome enough
to leave it all behind, and had even taken a Greek name, Lykaion, which was
posted on the entrances to his home. And Cassius, by bring it up, only put
his old friend in an uncomfortable position. "Well, I guess we had better go
now. We were just dropping by on our way to the house we rented." He stood
up to leave, and the others with him. "It was good to see you again Gaius."
Gaius rose, and before they walked out the door, spoke, trying to salvage
something from this meeting. "Cassius, uh...what are you and Draco doing
this evening?"
"We have no plans. Why, did you have an idea?", Cassius asked, hopefully.
"Well, I imagine the ladies are tired and would like to retire for the
evening. So I thought maybe you and I, and Draco of course,
could...uh..would you want to go to a party tonight?"
"Party?" Draco said, perking up.
Cassius looked doubtful. "I don't know Gaius. If uninvited people show
up..."
"That's no problem Cassius!", Gaius interjected. "I can bring friends with
me. Really, it's alright. A boy's night out, know what I mean? Besides,
the host is someone you know!"
"Really? Who??"
Gaius Festus shook his head. "No. You have to come and see for yourself!"
Cassius looked hesitant, Draco excited.
"Shall I come by at nightfall?", Gaius asked.
Cassius looked at him, smiled, and nodded. "Alright. Nightfall it is!"
"Excellent!", Gaius cheered. "Just one thing though. Leave the senatorial
garb behind. Try to look more....local. Is that alright?" Cassius nodded
again, gave Gaius his address, and then departed with his company.

End of Chapter III

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Subject:	[novaroma] ROMAN NEWS!
From:	brian@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 07:18:41 -0000

I don't know if you already know this or not (I saw no mention of it
on the list), but it appears that there is another Roman epic being
produced in Hollywood. I saw information mentioned on
http://www.romansoldier.com yesterday.
Cheers,
Br

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 926
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:35:35 -0700 (PDT)

> Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:44:16 +0100
> From: "Nick Ford"
> <gens_moravia@-------->
> Subject: Military Step
>
> N. Moravius Quiritibus salutem dat
>
> I have come across a fragment of Vegetius'
> 'Military Science' (Book I, ix) (in English, alas,
> hence the following ambiguity I am unable to
> resolve):
>
> "... twenty miles with the military step should be
> done in five hours, in the summer only; with the
> full step, which is quicker, twenty-four miles
> should be completed in the same number of hours..."
>
> If I understand this correctly, Vegetius means that
> the infantry used a kind of foreshortened step (I
> would guess, of a regulation length of iii. pedes),
> as distinct from a person's natural step, which of
> course would vary.
>
<snipped>
>
> Can anyone enlighten me on this?

Salvete:

First of all, as a soldier who has done my share of
marching, I'm impressed by the speed of this march.
Four mph is a pretty good clip, and that assumes no
breaks...very impressive.

BTW, regarding other posts re the distance units can
march: I have marched 15-18 miles many times in a
single day (with packs and equipment, which I assume
the Romans would also carry). It's not easy,
especially on the new guys, but can be done. I would
estimate about 7 hours for this march, but don't
recall timing one.

As for the military step vs. the full step:
Historically, some armies have had a parade-use step,
which is what I assume the "military" step to be. I
have no idea why anyone would want to do this for that
long a distance...just how long were their parades?

If my theory is right, that makes the "full step"
about the same 30 inch step armies have used
throughout history.

An alternative theory is that the "military step" is a
30 inch step and the "full step" is what we call
nowadays a "route step" (not marching in step).

L. A. Dalmaticus

=====
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HQ USAREUR/7A
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Subject:	[novaroma] An idea for the website
From:	"Bart Van Wassenhove" <phoenix83@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:58:32 +0200

Quintus Apollonius Flaccus omni S.P.D.

I'm a member of NR for over 2 months now and I've already met quite a few
people, both actively(in a discussion) and passively (by reading their
postings). Still, I don't really know who most of these people are in "real"
life, what they do for work, what their hobbies are, etcetera...

It would be interesting if NR would have some sort of 'profile directory' of
its members :
a standardized page with some personal information for every member (and all
new subscribers), similar to ICQ or Yahoo messenger profiles; I believe that
would greatly ease and enhance NR communication. It would also enable voters
to have better insight in their politicians (and politicians in spe), so
that they can detailedly consider their vote before elections.

This is a time- and work intensive task, and I think our webmaster already
has a lot of work (so have I ;-), so this project, if it is accepted by the
senate/curator araneae, may require other volunteers. I myself am already
busy with the ambitious "sodalitas musarum" project that's being set up in
the "For The Muses" list at the moment, so I leave this entirely upon
others; I still want to help with providing ideas however.

Any commentaries, suggestions ... ?

Salvete omnes !

Quintus Apollonius Flaccus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] An idea for the website
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:36:37 -0700

Bart Van Wassenhove wrote:

> Quintus Apollonius Flaccus omni S.P.D.
>
> I'm a member of NR for over 2 months now and I've already met quite a few
> people, both actively(in a discussion) and passively (by reading their
> postings). Still, I don't really know who most of these people are in "real"
> life, what they do for work, what their hobbies are, etcetera...
>
> It would be interesting if NR would have some sort of 'profile directory' of
> its members :
> a standardized page with some personal information for every member (and all
> new subscribers), similar to ICQ or Yahoo messenger profiles; I believe that
> would greatly ease and enhance NR communication. It would also enable voters
> to have better insight in their politicians (and politicians in spe), so
> that they can detailedly consider their vote before elections.
>

Ave, I have been working on that. If you noticed, I passed an Edictum earlier
this year that added that to our Citizenship application. However, this takes
ALOT of time to develop and is basically on a backburner on my things to do.
Once, I get my Scribes up and working and myself caught up I might be able to
focus some time on this. However, we must be careful about personal information
because there is the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus that prohibits personal
information being made public. Hope this helps. :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizen images needed for Album Civium
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:19:10 +0100

Salve

Here is my pic!

Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Sabado, 8 de Julho de 2000 16:35
Subject: [novaroma] Citizen images needed for Album Civium

>
>Salvete Cives,
>
>The new Album Civium inclues pages showing information on each individual
>citizen, which can include a small portrait.
>
>If you'd like to attach a portrait of yourself to your record, please mail
>it to me (not to the list!). It should be no more than 150 x 150 pixels.
>The filename should be based on your complete Roman name as shown
>in the Album Civium, separated with periods, such as:
>
> Marcus.Octavius.Germanicus.jpg
> Lucius.Cornelius.Sulla.Felix.gif
> Gaius.Marius.Merullus.jpg
> Quintus.Fabius.Maximus.gif
>
>Vale, Octavius.
>
>--
>M. Octavius Germanicus
>Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
>Microsoft delenda est!
>http://www.graveyards.com/
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizen images needed for Album Civium
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:23:27 +0100

Sorry, this was to be private =(

Graecus

-----Original Message-----
From: Antonio Grilo <amg>
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Segunda-feira, 10 de Julho de 2000 14:22
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Citizen images needed for Album Civium

>Salve
>
>Here is my pic!
>
>Vale
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
>To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
>Date: Sabado, 8 de Julho de 2000 16:35
>Subject: [novaroma] Citizen images needed for Album Civium
>
>
>>
>>Salvete Cives,
>>
>>The new Album Civium inclues pages showing information on each individual
>>citizen, which can include a small portrait.
>>
>>If you'd like to attach a portrait of yourself to your record, please mail
>>it to me (not to the list!). It should be no more than 150 x 150 pixels.
>>The filename should be based on your complete Roman name as shown
>>in the Album Civium, separated with periods, such as:
>>
>> Marcus.Octavius.Germanicus.jpg
>> Lucius.Cornelius.Sulla.Felix.gif
>> Gaius.Marius.Merullus.jpg
>> Quintus.Fabius.Maximus.gif
>>
>>Vale, Octavius.
>>
>>--
>>M. Octavius Germanicus
>>Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
>>Microsoft delenda est!
>>http://www.graveyards.com/
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files.
>>Install today:
>>http://click.egroups.com/1/6347/8/_/61050/_/963070494/
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Military Step
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:37:36 -0000

> I can see the advantages in a regulation short step, as it would
tend to produce less lateral momentum with all the kit a legionary
marched with, while its uniformity would make close-order marching
feasible.
> I should think, though, that it would also be more tiring, at least
to a new recruit.

I don't know anything about the legionary aspect of this. However,
when I was young I played in my school's marching band. I don't think
you have them in British schools - the purpose is to represent the
school in local parades and entertain the crowds during halftime at
our football games.

To perform the marching maneuvers needed for the halftime show, we
learned to march a short uniform step. It was difficult for new
recruits, but that is what drilling is for! Once trained in this
stride, we found that it did in fact make life easier, particularly
if one played a bulky or heavy instrument. (I did this with a bass
clarinet, which was insane.)

For parades, we used a longer stride so as to cover the ground
faster. This was set by the drum major in the front, usually a tall
senior male, and the younger and shorter members of the band
sometimes had to scamper a bit to keep up.

Because the football field was marked off with stripes at five-yard
intervals, and because marching music is virtually always on a beat
of 4, we marched eight steps (two groups of 4) to five yards. This,
if you do the math, is a 22.5-inch step, shorter than most people's
natural stride. A side effect of this early training is that I can
still pace off a reasonably good approximation of five yards, a skill
that comes in handy from time to time.

I hope this information is helpful - and if not, you have at least
provided me with an opportunity to revisit a pleasant part of my
youth!

Patricia Cassia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] An idea for the website
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:06:07 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Quinte Apolloni,

> It would be interesting if NR would have some sort of 'profile directory' of
> its members :
> a standardized page with some personal information for every member (and all
> new subscribers), similar to ICQ or Yahoo messenger profiles;

I'm working on it already! See:

http://spqr.konoko.net/bin/view?cmd=show-gens&gens_name=Equitia
http://spqr.konoko.net/bin/view?cmd=show-gens&gens_name=Cassia

...and the individual pages linked to from there. (I've used as examples
those gentes that have submitted the most pictures).

Right now it displays some of the information from the Censors' database.
I hope to soon add the ability for citizens to log in with a password and
add additional information. There are already fields in the database for
up to three ICQ/Yahoo/AOL ID's per person, although nothing is in them
yet.

> I believe that
> would greatly ease and enhance NR communication. It would also enable voters
> to have better insight in their politicians (and politicians in spe), so
> that they can detailedly consider their vote before elections.

Future Cista pages could link directly to the candidates' profiles, which
might include campaign statements. It's hard for newcomers to remember
all the Roman names, but these profiles will certainly help.

Vale, Octavius

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Military Step
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:43:29 US/Central

T Labienus Fortunatus Omnibus S P D

> > "... twenty miles with the military step should be
> > done in five hours, in the summer only; with the
> > full step, which is quicker, twenty-four miles
> > should be completed in the same number of hours..."
>
> First of all, as a soldier who has done my share of
> marching, I'm impressed by the speed of this march.
> Four mph is a pretty good clip, and that assumes no
> breaks...very impressive.

I did a fair amount of mountain hiking in my youth, and my best was nearly four
miles per hour while carrying a 50 pound pack over rather rugged ground. Of
course, I was in a small group, setting my own pace, and didn't have to face
the prospect of dismantling a temporary fort in the morning and erecting one in
the evening. Also, I usually took a total of an hour to an hour and a half of
periodic breaks during a day. I didn't have a baggage train to deal with and,
most importantly, I was using a modern kit. There's no way I would have done
so well while carrying my kit on a T-shaped stick over one shoulder--especially
with a scutum to deal with.

In other words, I'm fairly impressed by Vegetius' numbers, too.

> An alternative theory is that the "military step" is a
> 30 inch step and the "full step" is what we call
> nowadays a "route step" (not marching in step).

That's the way I'd interpret it.

Valete

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Subject:	[novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 06:07:20 -0700

Sorry...I cannot remember this..can anyone remember this for him?

Francois Peeters wrote:

> Dear Nova Roma,
>
> My question is:
> what does spqr stands for ( i know the latin meaning), but what does it
> mean.
> is it perhaps citizen of rome (or is this a too simple translation?)
>
> thanks
>
> Francois Peeters
> ADP Flex software & services
> fpeeters@--------

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Forming a Roman Unit
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:56:44 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Mr. Fred Shaller Jr,;

Developing a Roman Legio is similar to developing any other military
reenactment unit and is hard work. General requirements are pretty
simple to state, but difficult to carry out in the long term. I learned
my rules from the British Brigade (a Rev War Reenactment organization):

--Conduct all unit operations so that the privates (legionaries) are
sorry to leave and are looking forward to attending the next one;

--The NCOs will be satisfied by directing the privates;

--The Officers will buy their satisfaction !!!

For the specifics, the XXth Legio (Maryland) and the XXIVth Legio (New
Jersey). IXth Legio (San Diego), VIth Legio (Texas), and a Legio whom I
do not remember their number (New Orleans) all of whom are listed on the
NR website or on the Legio lists of the XXth, XXIVth,and Vith, are
excellent sources. You will, of course, remember that while things are
much better than they were two years ago, there is still a limited
number of people who manufacture authentic arms, armor, accoutrements,
and camp equipment, therefore much of what you will need will have to be
made by yourselves. We also have the new Legio VI (the second one) in
the Albany, NY area which either is or soon will be on our website, who
may be able to help you.

A visit to the www Search Engines should provide you with the web
addresses of several additional units both in the U.S. and abroad who
have been most gracious in providing me with information.

When you have made your basic arrangements, found your references and
are ready to field an authentic force of men, I hope that you will
request sponsorship of Nova Roman by contactng the Consuls. All the
best, good luck in your efforts and keep in touch;

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:55:33 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Sorry...I cannot remember this..can anyone remember this for him?
> >
> > My question is:
> > what does spqr stands for ( i know the latin meaning), but what does it
> > mean.

Senatus Populusque Romanus

"que" is a suffix meaning "and".

The Senate and Roman People.

Vale, Octavius

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	StarWreck@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:13:57 EDT

In a message dated 7/10/00 10:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
haase@-------- writes:

<< Senatus Populusque Romanus

"que" is a suffix meaning "and".

The Senate and Roman People. >>
I think I remember it being:
Senatus Populsque Romanorum... The Senate and the People of Rome, its been a
while though.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:17:36 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 StarWreck@-------- wrote:

> I think I remember it being:
> Senatus Populsque Romanorum...

<JohnCleese>
*How many* Romes are there?
</JohnCleese>

Sorry, couldn't resist...

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Military Step
From:	"Kryn Miner" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:30:54 EDT

OK for what it's worth, (my two cents) I have been in the Infantry for my
entire adult life (14 years now) I don't care how careful you measure it
etc. or what you call it. The average joe in any army is good for about 15
to 20 miles a day for about 7 days and then he is useless for a day or two.
( I had the privlage of walking from Ft. Benning GA to Ft. Drum NY once)
and you ahve to figure the combat load of a foot soldier is about 30-40 lbs,
in any army or any era... any more and he slows WAY down any less he isn't
humping his full kit. (funny how no matter what era, now, 18th century (did
the BB and F&I era for about 10 years) or two thousand years ago the amount
of stuff and the distance really hasent changed a seasoned "grunt" can
hump...

I hope this adds a bit of "real expereince" input into the conversation..

Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
Praefectus Legionis, Legio VI

"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Military Step
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:47:18 EDT

In a message dated 7/10/2000 6:39:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pjane@-------- writes:

<< Because the football field was marked off with stripes at five-yard
intervals, and because marching music is virtually always on a beat
of 4, we marched eight steps (two groups of 4) to five yards. This,
if you do the math, is a 22.5-inch step, shorter than most people's
natural stride. >>
Salve!
I often wondered how the bands did that. The lines would be a huge help in
keeping time and carrying out intricate maneuvering.
As for Romans keeping cadence, they probably had marching paeans.
There is famous one from the Army of Gaul about their commander.
Vale!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	StarWreck@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:50:56 EDT

In a message dated 7/10/00 2:25:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, haase@--------
writes:

<< <JohnCleese>
*How many* Romes are there?
</JohnCleese>

Sorry, couldn't resist... >>
Ack! Well I said its been a while, -orum is plural!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:04:11 EDT

In a message dated 7/10/2000 11:25:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
haase@-------- writes:

<< *How many* Romes are there? >>
I believe 22 cities have the name of "Rome"
QFM

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Website is OK AGAIN
From:	"C Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:19:42 -0400

Salvete Antoni Grylle et alii

Does this mean that Nova Roma will again receive a portion of sales at
Amazon.com initiated through the macellum? If so, it really is great news,
since this is a great way to help Nova Roma while learning about Roma.
Magnas gratias tibi ago

If not, I would welcome suggestions from anyone involved as to what I or
others can do to restore this important trade link.

Either way, please let me know, as I am waiting to go on a bit of a book
binge.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
>
>The Website is ok again. The updated Bookstore is now available in the
>Macellum with new Early Rome titles.
>
>Valete
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>Curator Araneae
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Military Step
From:	"Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:37:29 -0000

Salvete.

I am enjoying all the in put on this topic.

The below book is illuminating on the subject of the Roman Army
operating in the field. The author is retired Royal (British) Army.
He served in the China-India-Burma theatre in WW-II and has applied
some of those experiences to his work. They had to use pack animals
and had next to NO mechanized support.I would like to hear what you
all think of Peddie's work in light of your own studies and
experiences.

from Amazon.Com
Peddie, John.: THE ROMAN WAR MACHINE. -- Price: $25.00 $15.00
paper.

Is this in the Nova Roma bookshop?

Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Website is OK AGAIN
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:45:31 -0500 (CDT)

> If not, I would welcome suggestions from anyone involved as to what I or
> others can do to restore this important trade link.

An Amazon affiliate ID won't expire by itself... as long as we haven't
cancelled the account, and the links are correctly formed, this will
continue to work.

Vale, Octavius

M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:35:39 -0400

And, while we are on this tack, let us not forget:

Romanes eunt domus

I simply could not resist -- my humble apologies.

Lucilla Cornelia Aurelia Antonina

novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 StarWreck@-------- wrote:
>
> > I think I remember it being:
> > Senatus Populsque Romanorum...
>
> <JohnCleese>
> � � *How many* Romes are there?
> </JohnCleese>
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist...
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Curule Aedile, Nova Roma � � � �
> Microsoft delenda est!
> http://www.graveyards.com/
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia Strabo" <trog99@-------->
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:28:28 GMT

Salvete!

22 cities with the name Rome...

...Plus...atleast One Grocery Store on Planet Earth has the name Rome..!!In
my city in Ontario, Canada, we have "Rome's..Your Independent Grocer"...it
is one of those massive, pick up everything plus your groceries places!!!

Apparently the people who own it actually have the sirname Rome,; I had
never before heard of Rome used as a last name.

Pompeia

>From: sfp55@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:04:11 EDT
>
>In a message dated 7/10/2000 11:25:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>haase@-------- writes:
>
><< *How many* Romes are there? >>
>I believe 22 cities have the name of "Rome"
>QFM
>
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>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:29:54 -0400

There's a Rome, New York . . .
novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete!
>
> 22 cities with the name Rome...
>
> ...Plus...atleast One Grocery Store on Planet Earth has the name Rome..!!In
> my city in Ontario, Canada, we have "Rome's..Your Independent Grocer"...it
> is one of those massive, pick up everything plus your groceries places!!!
>
> Apparently the people who own it actually have the sirname Rome,; I had
> never before heard of Rome used as a last name.
>
> Pompeia
>
>
> >From: sfp55@--------
> >Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> >To: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
> >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:04:11 EDT
> >
> >In a message dated 7/10/2000 11:25:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >haase@-------- writes:
> >
> ><< �*How many* Romes are there? >>
> >I believe 22 cities have the name of "Rome"
> >QFM
> >
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Subject:	[novaroma] Gratulor, O Scriptor!
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:17:28 +0200

Ave O Marce Corneli Scriptor Pontifici!

I congratulate you upon your new pontificate and wish
you the blessings of the gods and goddesses of Roma in your
work on our behalf.

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________

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