| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr] |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:12:03 GMT |
|
>From: LucillaCornelia@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] [Fwd: spqr]
>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:29:54 -0400
>
>There's a Rome, New York . . .
>novaroma@-------- wrote:
Salve, Lucilla Cornelia: I think that's where the famous school of arts is
located, .. This institute has a campus in Rome, Italia as well.
Vale, Pompeia Cornelia
> >
> > >
> > >> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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> >
>
>----------
>Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at
>http://home.netscape.com/webmail/
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Edictum - Scribe appointment |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:50:59 -0700 |
|
Salvete Omnes.
I am pleased to appoint, Marcus Apollonius Formosanus as my Censor
scribe. His primary task would be to contact each citizen and ask them
if they would like to disclose any instant messaging program they have
so that our citzens would have a better means in communication with each
other. My long term plan will be to publish this list on the NR list so
that all citizens will have access to this. (This is outside of the Lex
Cornelia de Privatus Rebus.) Also, he will advertise the picture
feature in the new Album Gentium. :)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Forming a Roman Unit |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:15:54 -0000 |
|
>Jersey). IXth Legio (San Diego), VIth Legio (Texas), and a Legio whom I
>Vale, Respectfully;
>Marcus Minucius Audens
>Consul et Senator
Who would I talk to about VIth Legio?
Lucius Vatinius Lupus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] RE: [britannia] Military Step (long and rambling) |
| From: |
Andy Pearson <andy.pearson@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:03:38 +0100 |
|
Salvete, omnes.
As solicited by my brother, Nigellus: my 2 dupondii worth:
It isn't easy to comment on Vegetius. He was writing a long time after the
period represented by most reenactors, who tend to concentrate on the
Claudian/Flavian/Trajanic period. This makes it difficult to know what
comments are valid, or to know whether Vegetius was getting it all round his
neck.
For example: most reenactors use a scutum based on the Dura-Europos find
(circa 1000 auc). No carrying straps have ever been found, and experiments
by (I think) Dan Peterson's Legio XIV Gemina Martia Victrix suggest that the
scutum's lining is effectively destroyed by a 'cheese-grater' effect if it
is strapped onto the back of a soldier wearing the famous lorica segmentata.
Hence: the scutum is always carried in the hand. If this is correct, the
curved scutum acts to impose a maximum step-length - too long a pace, and
you bang your knee (believe me!). I'll try and remember to measure this next
time I'm in kit.
However, this observation may be inappropriate, as by vegetius' time this
scutum may have gone out of use.
See what I mean?
BTW, didn't the mile get its name from being 1000 paces long (mille passus,
if Chamber's dictionary is correct)? The Romans counted a pace as being from
when one foot strikes the ground to when the same foot next struck the
ground (ie 2 of our 'paces'). If this isn't a load of cods, then the Roman
step should be 1/2000 of a mille passus. Therefore, if 1 mille passus =
1611 yards (Chamber's again), 1 passus = 58 inches and 1 step = 29 inches
(lengthened to 35 inches, if you choose to speed up by taking longer steps).
Back to the chase: Nigellus' suggestion of increased tempo could work - Leg
II Aug can actually trot for (short) distances carrying scuta, so long as
we're not carrying impedimenta. Apart from our poor level of fitness, an
impedimenta bouncing up and down on the shoulder can wreck the armour. The
lorica segmentata, if worn tight, restricts one's ability to pant after
exercise, but this is all by-the-by.
Next question: how far and how fast did the legions, as described by
Vegetius, actually travel?
The Roman hour varied as the time between sunrise and sunset varied, by
season (as we probably all know), but this implies that the hour would also
vary by latitude. A summer hour in Caledonia would be longer than a summer
hour in Africa. Armies in the wild and woolly north could march a little
more slowly (and in the cooler climate, too), but would have less time to do
all the non-marching jobs that the day would doubtless contain (building a
camp, cooking, sleeping etc). If they'd ever crossed the arctic circle,
they'd have been well confused.
According to last Friday's Grauniad, the sun rose at 4:53 and set at 21:18.
This makes 16 hours and 25 minutes of daylight. This is near the extreme
for the year, and the Roman hora would be a whopping 82 minutes long!
Given that, at the equinoxes, 1 hora = 60 minutes, then an average summer
hora of 70 minutes might be reasonable for Britannia. It would be
interesting if anyone's got comparable figures for Italy.
Now, 20 mille passus (=20000 passus = 40000 steps) in 5 horae (350 minutes)
comes to 114 beats per minute, or 137 beats at quick-time.
In terms of speed, 20 miles in 5 hours = 1 mile (1760 yds) in 15 minutes =
117 yds/minute (= 4 mph). 20 mille passus in 5 hora (of 70 minutes each) = 1
mille passus (1611 yds) in 17.5 minutes = 92 yds/minute (= approx 3 mph).
Quick time would be approx 3.6 mph. These speeds don't seem to be too
difficult to achieve.
Hope I got the arithmetic right!
Just to summarise, by this reckoning a legion stationed in Britannia would
march at 114 beats/minute with a 29 inch step (3 mph). Quick time could be
achieved by either lengthening step to 35 inches (still at 114 per minute),
or by speeding up to 137 per minute. Either way, you should end up moving at
3.6 mph.
Combinations, such as 125 steps per minute of 32 inches, should also work.
I don't know just what weight each legionary carried, but take it from me,
wearing a lorica segmentata for several hours at a stretch is easy if it is
tight enough to distribute its weight evenly across the torso. The scutum
and impedimenta are bigger problems. I find that the scutum, if carried (see
above) soon fatigues the left hand (with practice, I have managed to hold
one for 20 minutes - further improvement should be possible). See above for
my comments on the damage inflicted on loricae by impedimentae - one of Leg
II Aug's members did manage to wreck a lorica by marching all day along
hadrian's wall.
All the calculations above make no allowance for rest breaks. These
shouldn't be necessary. 3 mph is not fast and 350 minutes isn't long between
meals. You can urinate on the move, if you (and your friends) aren't prissy
(no, we haven't tried this). The impedimenta can be balanced (Leg XIV GMV
again), which would free one hand to snatch a mouthful from a canteen.
Perhaps the legionaries were taught to transfer the impedimenta to the other
shoulder, then pass the scutum across to the other hand, without breaking
step? Perhaps I should try it!
AFAIK, every 8 man group (contubernium) had a mule to carry the heavy
essentials, such as the tent and grindstone. Does anyone know if mules are
happy to move at 3-3.6 mph?
Time to stop rambling.
Of course, if our esteemed propraetor does visit my legion at Rockbourne,
and if he still wants to know how it feels to run around in kit......>:->
Valete,
Vindex.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: The Military Step |
| From: |
DTibbe2926@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:12:10 EDT |
|
If it's anything like his 'Invasion: the Conquest of Britain' it's not worth
the paper it's printed on! Still I haven't read it so won't comment further.
BTW, John Peddie is now deceased.
<< The below book is illuminating on the subject of the Roman Army
operating in the field. The author is retired Royal (British) Army.
He served in the China-India-Burma theatre in WW-II and has applied
some of those experiences to his work. They had to use pack animals
and had next to NO mechanized support.I would like to hear what you
all think of Peddie's work in light of your own studies and
experiences.
from Amazon.Com
Peddie, John.: THE ROMAN WAR MACHINE. -- Price: $25.00 $15.00
paper. >>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Military Step (long and rambling) |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:06:47 EDT |
|
Salvete,
I'm honestly not sure why this thread is fascinating, but it is. Even to a
nonmilitary person like myself! Perhaps because not enough work has been done
with this subject by historians, and um, new territory is being marched over?
(In military step, of course!)
If a consensus of what was probable can be reached, it'd make a great
informative article up in the "Campus Martinus" section of the Nova Roma
website. It would allow us to offer a small bit of historical info that
nobody else seems to have.
Valete,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
In a message dated 7/11/00 2:03:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
andy.pearson@-------- writes:
<<
Just to summarise, by this reckoning a legion stationed in Britannia would
march at 114 beats/minute with a 29 inch step (3 mph). Quick time could be
achieved by either lengthening step to 35 inches (still at 114 per minute),
or by speeding up to 137 per minute. Either way, you should end up moving at
3.6 mph.
Combinations, such as 125 steps per minute of 32 inches, should also work.
>>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Album Gentium |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:00:15 -0000 |
|
Salvete Quirites
An effort has begun to update and correct the Album Gentium. For my
part, as some have already begun to learn, I am sending out e-mails
to all the pater/mater familias to verify that their gens still
considers itself active in Nova Roma. The questions I am asking are:
Is your gens still active in Nova Roma?
Are you still the pater/mater familias of your gens?
Is your gens still accepting new members?
Is there any new information you wish to add for your gens in
the Album Gentium, or is there any information that needs to be
corrected and updated?
The newer gens, and newer members of gens, are not finding their
information in the Album Gentium linked off the NR Main List. That
is because the new Album Gentium is currently reached through the
Tabularium under the Censor Alba.
I am working from the censor's list. Not every pater/mater familias
has a valid e-mail address listed with the censor. An effort will be
made by Lucilla Cornelia to contact by phone anyone I am unable to
contact. It is stll possible that we may not reach every pater/mater
familias. Only if you are a current pater/mater familias, and you do
not receive an e-mail from me by the end of July, or a phone call
from Lucilla, you may contact me at:
piscinus@--------
Valete
Gn. Moravius Piscinus
scriba censori
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Gratulor Apolloni Formosano |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:18:16 EDT |
|
Salve Apolloni Formosane
Pro mandato scribae censori tibi gratulatio mitteo. Ita di deaque faxint.
Vale
Moravius Piscinus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: The Military Step |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:14:51 EDT |
|
<< Peddie, John.: THE ROMAN WAR MACHINE. -- Price: $25.00 $15.00
paper. >> >>
Not a great book. I found much of his data flawed. I have a copy for sale if
anyone is interested.
QFM
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 927 Message: 2 |
| From: |
"Sybil Leek" <DolanAp@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:45:57 PDT |
|
>Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:35:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
>Subject: Re: Digest Number 926
>
> > Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:44:16 +0100
> > From: "Nick Ford"
> > <gens_moravia@-------->
> > Subject: Military Step
> >
> > N. Moravius Quiritibus salutem dat
> >
> > I have come across a fragment of Vegetius'
> > 'Military Science' (Book I, ix) (in English, alas,
> > hence the following ambiguity I am unable to
> > resolve):
> >
> > "... twenty miles with the military step should be
> > done in five hours, in the summer only; with the
> > full step, which is quicker, twenty-four miles
> > should be completed in the same number of hours..."
> >
> > If I understand this correctly, Vegetius means that
> > the infantry used a kind of foreshortened step (I
> > would guess, of a regulation length of iii. pedes),
> > as distinct from a person's natural step, which of
> > course would vary.
> >
><snipped>
> >
> > Can anyone enlighten me on this?
Greetings,
Hmmm, impressive marching. Twenty-four maximum miles in five hours in the
middle of summer even, dang. Perhaps this is in reference to a small group
of men, with light or no packs. It might have to do with summer time and
the maximum number of miles to be marched, due to heat.
>From personal experience I know this would be difficult at best, especially
if you are dealing with a group of people. I am part American Indian and
when I was a teenager, my family lived in the high desert. My mother
decided, one summer, that I should learn how to walk/run and survive in the
high heat (averaging 100 F). At the start of summer I was given 2 pints of
water and we walked five miles a day, starting in the morning and ending by
noon. By the end of the summer I had learned to walk/run about 10 miles in
approximately 3 to 4 hours with no water and in the middle of the day
(averaging 104/110 F). Mind you, this was all done on rough terrain, I had
3 mesas and a couple of hills between me and my destination point, not to
mention avoiding the rattle snakes. During this summer my diet also changed
we ate grains, vegetables and local plants gathered while out on my daily
adventures. During this time we also ate very little meat because meat is
harder for the body to digest and use.
What I am trying to point out here is that the Romans lived differently than
we do. Also that they had a different mind set and expectations of their
soldiers and people, than we do today. After all wasn't it these ancient
people that gave us the Olympics and marathon running? Yes, it is hard to
imagine some of their accomplishments however, IF these soldiers were well
trained and trained together as a group. I would imagine that they could
have marched or perhaps ran these distances in the time allotted. However,
I would imagine that they either had light packs or no packs and that this
type of marching was not the average. It may have been used for stop gap
measures, ie need of a small force of men, in a set place, in a short period
of time. Well, that my two cents of words. Thanks all for the eyes and
ears.
Vale, Prima Nocta (yah, I am a girl) :)
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