| Subject: |
[novaroma] Latin Translation Needed |
| From: |
Lykaion1@-------- |
| Date: |
Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:54:38 EDT |
|
Salvete,
Is there anyone fluent in Latin who could translate this prayer into Latin
for me? I know that Isis in Latin is Isidis, and that Serapis had replaced
Osiris as the name of her consort. I don't know what the Romans called Nut
and Geb though.
Prayer Of Awakening
Awake, awake, awake
Awake in peace,
Lady of peace,
Rise thou in peace,
Rise thou in beauty,
Goddess of life,
Beautiful in heaven,
Heaven is in peace,
Earth is in peace,
O Goddess,
Daughter of Nut,
Daughter of Geb,
Beloved of Osiris,
Goddess rich in names!
All praise to You,
All praise to You,
I adore You
I adore You
Lady Isis!
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] for my friends at NR |
| From: |
"Daniel Oscar Villanueva" <danielov@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:11:03 -0300 |
|
L. Pompeius Octavianus omnibus S.P.D.
Salvete.
Some days ago, I read a post on IM. After that I decided to download and
install ICQ. So, This message is for all my friends here at NR, and for
those who eventually would like to contact me. My ICQ number is : 50829011 ,
and I use my roman name. So you´ll find me at ICQ as : name=Lucius
lastname= Pompeius Octavianus and nickname = Lucius.
Curate ut valeatis.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] for my friends at NR |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:55:48 -0700 |
|
Great, thanks for posting that, my ICQ number is 2122309
My AIM is NovaRoman
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
Daniel Oscar Villanueva wrote:
> L. Pompeius Octavianus omnibus S.P.D.
> Salvete.
> Some days ago, I read a post on IM. After that I decided to download and
> install ICQ. So, This message is for all my friends here at NR, and for
> those who eventually would like to contact me. My ICQ number is : 50829011 ,
> and I use my roman name. So you´ll find me at ICQ as : name=Lucius
> lastname= Pompeius Octavianus and nickname = Lucius.
> Curate ut valeatis.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Your old buddies are not out of range anymore. Free search with
> Military.com's Personnel Locator.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4158/8/_/61050/_/963472394/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Great Lakes Province e-list |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson <amgunn@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:08:44 -0500 |
|
Avete Omnes,
Venator scripsit:
I have been appointed the new moderator for the eGroups home of the Magna Laci Cives discussion
list. I should like to urge those who are residing in this Province to subscribe so we can get
about the amicable job of building a Roman community.
I know, why's the Norse Heathen doing this? Hey, our cultural ancestors were adversaries, but we
ain't ;-{) Besides, I've come to know and quite like many Nova Romans, ans I think it's worthwhile
to help build up as large a community for you (and me) as I have in Heathenry.
So, without further ado, here's the frontpage address, you are already subscribed to eGroups if
you're reading this, click on the subscribe box and come home to your province.
http://www.egroups.com/group/GreatLakesNovaRoma
As moderator, I'll safeguard against nothing save that which harms courtesy and good taste (I do
have a very high tolerance level).
Please, Citizens from around the Big Waters, I pray thee attend!!!
In amicus - Venii, Moderator of the Magna Laci and Sod pro Coq et Coq lists
PS: If ye're interested, the Sodalis list is growing, join us at
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] More ramblings on time... |
| From: |
Andy Pearson <andy.pearson@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:32:07 +0100 |
|
Salvete!
Sic Fortunatus:
>I don't think your numbers are correct here. Assuming 20 >Roman miles in 5
>horae, I get the following average speeds (in Roman miles per >modern hour,
as I
>don't remember the conversion from Roman to modern miles >offhand):
<amputatio>
Aargh! My mistake. More time to do the march, so you go faster, I don't
think. Duh!
Thanks for pointing it out...
According to my Chamber's Dictionary, a mille passus was equivalent to 1611
yards. I have no idea where they got that from. A modern mile is 1760 yards.
Hence 20 mille passus = 18.2 miles, approx. The conversion factor works out
to 1 mille passus = about 0.915 miles.
Using this factor, your table becomes:
City Summer speed, miles per hour
Alexandria 2.89 (summer = 18.2 miles in 380 minutes)
Athens 2.78
Rome 2.71
Strasbourg 2.58
London 2.49
Newcastle 2.39
Orkneys 2.26 (summer = 18.2 miles in 485 minutes)
Slower in the north, as you point out.
But please bear in mind that this calculation is for the longest possible
hora at each location (ie around the summer solstice). Using a more average
kind of value (mean of solstitial and equinoctal horae) gives figures in the
range 3.22 mph (Alexandria) to 2.79 mph (Orkneys). Add 20% if you want to go
at Vegetius' 'full pace'.
Still, these aren't very rapid marching speeds. The winter solstice speeds
you calculated are higher, though Vegetius does stress that the 20 mille
passus march is to be completed in 5 summer horae - whatever he meant by a
summer hora.
>Does anyone know how variable the hora really was during >Vegetius' time?
I was
>under the impression that Rome had access to water clocks >fairly early.
I second this question!
How did these devices work? If a true cylinder is filled at a constant rate
from sunrise to sunset, it is easy to divide the resulting depth of water
into 12 equal portions (of 1 hora each). It would seem to be less easy to
calibrate a cylinder which emptied, as the flow rate would vary.
But is there any point in standardising the length of the hora? You can
either:
1) Don't standardise the length of the Hora. Every locality recalibrates its
water clock when required (say once or twice a month?). Result: horae
varying in length with season and location, but does it matter?
2) Everyone recalibrates their water clocks on the equinoxes. It wouldn't
matter where you were, you would end up with a 60 minute hora. Of course,
the number of horae between sunrise and sunset would vary with season and
location, as they do at present. Is this an improvement on option 1?
Whoops! seem to have left the army behind!
Valete, omnes
Vindex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Information on Lorica Segmentata |
| From: |
"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:10:07 -0500 |
|
13 July 2000
Salve
My name is Quintus Sertorius and I have a request. We are forming a Legio
and we need as much information as possible on Lorica Segmentata Armour. We
intend to make as all our own uniforms from helmet to sandals, so any
information on this will be of tremendous value to us. Please help us on
this matter and we will forever be in your debt.
Also, from the movie Gladiator,can anyone tell me what the names of the two
horses on Maximus Ducimus Meridius' chest Armour are? I know that one
horse's name was Argenta but what was the other one's name?
Vale
Quintus Sertorius
quintus-sertorius@--------
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:51:28 +0200 |
|
Salvete Cives Novae Romae.
It is a source of great regret to me that my gentile son
Quintus Apollonius Flaccus has decided to leave Nova Roma. I
would not have done so quite as quickly as he in his place,
but he was seriously provoked.
This relates to the Sodalitas Musarum which has been
organising itself on the ForTheMuses List, so the affair
might not be well known to many of you. The problem has been
that Aeternia Draconia, the organiser, has decided to keep
in her own hands the power of the sodalitas-to-be, when one
might have normally expected her to make decisions by votes
of the founding contributers. She indeed announced about a
week ago that there would be a vote on the structure and
governance of the Sodalitas, but this seem to have been
cancelled by her.
In this course of this discussion my son Quintus made a
proposal to be responsible for the Greek section, which he
proposed to do in a less "formal and official" manner
because some participants preferred to downplay the Greek
element in our essentially Roman society. He wished to do
the work himself and offer it to Nova Roma for whatever
interest it might hold for us. It might be very reasonably
objected (as Sulla did, later) that all of Greek culture is
too much for one person, and that others might like to
participate in that labour. However, Aeternia simply said
(and I quote):
a.) The Greek section *will* be part of the
"official" sodalitas. b.) You *may* work on the Greek
Section, but *not* alone. I'm sure you'll still find
great pleasure on working on it. [Emphasis mine.]
Since the whole matter was still under active discussion,
the peremptory and imperious tone of those words "WILL" and
"MAY" naturally stung my son. This was not the tone of
friendly, mutually-respectful discussion, as we had
thitherto enjoyed. Quintus responded, accusing her of acting
like a "Queen", which greatly offended her. I myself would
not have used exactly such language, out of considerations
of politeness, but I would have thought it!
I subsequently decided that since Aeternia and I had
different ideas of the public vs. private nature of this
group, it would be better for me to withdraw with a minimum
of ill will on both sides. In my resignation I considered it
important to advise Aeternia that people really do take
democracy seriously and will be offended if their chances to
take part in social decision-making processes are
unreasonably thwarted. In part I wrote ***and I think this
is important for ALL Nova Romans to read***:
> I would like to pause here to reflect on our democracy.
> There are people who say from time to time that "Nova Roma
> is not a Democracy, but a Respublica". And they use this
to
> try to reduce democratic feedback in our society.
> Historically this is illegitimate. "Res Publica" is a term
> which applies to the Monarchy and the Republic and the
> Principate and the Despotism. Today we would call it "The
> State". To Cicero his Res Publica was a "Respublica
Libera"
> (Free Republic) or even "Respublica Popularis" (Popular or
> even "People's" Republic). It was opposed in the minds of
> High Republicans to kingship and despotism on the one hand
> (be that kingship ever so lawful) and mob rule on the
other.
> One usually considers states in which the magistrates are
> elected by the people democratic. Rome did so and on a
> yearly basis which gave a great deal of popular control
> compared to today's longer terms. And in fact the Roman
> Republic we emulate made its true laws by direct democracy
> rather than representative democracy. And even if the
> centuries are weighted, one could argue that that is less
an
> impediment to democracy than to have everything filtered
> through parties, congressmen and parliaments. And in the
> Tribunate we have the predecessor of the modern Ombudsman,
> but more powerful. The Roman Republic not democratic? What
> an idea!
>
> Even if this were not true of our model, the values of
> the political cultures of our macronations - highly
> democratic - would colour our expectations quite
naturally.
> Democracy - the governance of groups by the consent of the
> governed with mechanisms to keep it that way - is moving
to
> word-wide victory on the basis of its merits. It has the
> moral high ground, and so far as we can see, it will keep
> it.
>
> Therefore I say: we live in a democratic society, and
> people want to see a good reason for any exceptions to
that
> principle. I would - in a friendly way - advise Aeternia
to
> think about that so that she can get the willing and
> continuing coöperation of our best minds and greatest
> talents to make her beautiful idea a real success in the
> service of Nova Roma.
I would have left it at that and hoped that the moderating
influences of others and Aeternia's own good sense would
eventually lead to a reasonably democratic future for the
Sodalitas. I had entered it primaruly at her request in
order to help. (My own primary sodalitas activity is in the
Sodalitas Latinitatis, which we have taken the greatest
pains to ensure will be fully democratic.)
However, reading the reply of Aeternia to my moderate and
friendly letter of withdrawal, I became rather alarmed. She
wrote:
First off, I dont believe in democracy. All of the
great philosophers in Western Civilzation spoke against
democracy. They felt it was one of the worst forms of
government out there. I believe that. I am a Roman, I
believe in the Roman virtues and the Roman system of
government, in that I believe in a Republic.
We might note in passing that Socrates preferred to die in
obedience to the laws and even the unfair judgement of a
democratic jury in that arch-democratic State, Athens, when
he could have easily escaped into exile. However, the real
reason for her observation is that the word "democracy"
acquired (after the heyday or Athens) the connotations of
"mobocracy", and from Roman times right up to the eighteenth
century people preferred to say "Republic" for a state not
ruled by by one monarch and basing power on a more or less
greater mass of the populace.
Disregarding historical facts, however, I think it highly
undesirable that people should be attracted to Nova Roma
because of extreme rightist or authoritarian views, as
though we were an alternative to democracy (in its modern
positive meaning) rather than a specific kind of Roman
Republican democracy (as we are according to our
Constitution).
And I think it extremely dangerous that people hide behind
the term "Republic" using it as a code word for for some
notion of illiberal Statism whose true name would be much
less respectable.
Nova Roma is modelled on a Respublica LIBERA or POPULARIS.
And rather well modelled at that. Such a Respublica elects
its magistrates, makes its most important laws by popular
vote and is open to freedom of speech and freedom of
association. And that is all very good - but if someone
starts talking about a "Respublica" as though that were
something other than a Respublica Libera, then one must find
that suspect. That other "Respublica"is not the one of our
Roman model or of our Constitution.
So, in the end I regret that my son was so disgusted by
power games that he left Nova Roma. Happily this was not due
to the politics of our Respublica Herself, but only those of
a still-forming sodalitas. But we must all always be beware
of authoritariansm rearing its ugly head - or many heads
like a Hydra - and be ready to cut them off. I hope that
following the loss of my son in this matter we all might
become more sensitised to this in all the corners of our
Nova Roman culture. Power games make decent people disgusted
and disgusted people leave. This is not to our advantage.
Bene valete Quirites!
--
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Scriba Censorius
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
________________________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:56:27 -0700 |
|
Ave,
As someone who is helping Tink with her efforts in establishing this
Sodalias I just wanted to comment on this. First off, Tink has my complete
support and confidence in her abilities to coordinate the various angles
necessary to create this Sodalias. Second, I think it is in very poor taste
of Marcus Apollonius Formosanus to post this on another list. To me its
like posting a private email on the main list. If our citizens were
intersted in the Sodalias Musarium they would subscribe to that list.
Personality conflicts should not be posted on the main list. Also, I find
it in poor taste that only snippets of her response has been posted by
Formosanus. I will not post her entire response, but I recommend any
citizen that if they are interested, please check the archieves on that list
to see the ENTIRE post in question. I apologize to have to clutter our
main list with this rebuttal, but I felt it is necessary given the very
criticial post by Formosanus.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:
> Salvete Cives Novae Romae.
>
> It is a source of great regret to me that my gentile son
> Quintus Apollonius Flaccus has decided to leave Nova Roma. I
> would not have done so quite as quickly as he in his place,
> but he was seriously provoked.
>
> This relates to the Sodalitas Musarum which has been
> organising itself on the ForTheMuses List, so the affair
> might not be well known to many of you. The problem has been
> that Aeternia Draconia, the organiser, has decided to keep
> in her own hands the power of the sodalitas-to-be, when one
> might have normally expected her to make decisions by votes
> of the founding contributers. She indeed announced about a
> week ago that there would be a vote on the structure and
> governance of the Sodalitas, but this seem to have been
> cancelled by her.
>
> In this course of this discussion my son Quintus made a
> proposal to be responsible for the Greek section, which he
> proposed to do in a less "formal and official" manner
> because some participants preferred to downplay the Greek
> element in our essentially Roman society. He wished to do
> the work himself and offer it to Nova Roma for whatever
> interest it might hold for us. It might be very reasonably
> objected (as Sulla did, later) that all of Greek culture is
> too much for one person, and that others might like to
> participate in that labour. However, Aeternia simply said
> (and I quote):
>
> a.) The Greek section *will* be part of the
> "official" sodalitas. b.) You *may* work on the Greek
> Section, but *not* alone. I'm sure you'll still find
> great pleasure on working on it. [Emphasis mine.]
>
> Since the whole matter was still under active discussion,
> the peremptory and imperious tone of those words "WILL" and
> "MAY" naturally stung my son. This was not the tone of
> friendly, mutually-respectful discussion, as we had
> thitherto enjoyed. Quintus responded, accusing her of acting
> like a "Queen", which greatly offended her. I myself would
> not have used exactly such language, out of considerations
> of politeness, but I would have thought it!
>
> I subsequently decided that since Aeternia and I had
> different ideas of the public vs. private nature of this
> group, it would be better for me to withdraw with a minimum
> of ill will on both sides. In my resignation I considered it
> important to advise Aeternia that people really do take
> democracy seriously and will be offended if their chances to
> take part in social decision-making processes are
> unreasonably thwarted. In part I wrote ***and I think this
> is important for ALL Nova Romans to read***:
>
> > I would like to pause here to reflect on our democracy.
> > There are people who say from time to time that "Nova Roma
>
> > is not a Democracy, but a Respublica". And they use this
> to
> > try to reduce democratic feedback in our society.
> > Historically this is illegitimate. "Res Publica" is a term
>
> > which applies to the Monarchy and the Republic and the
> > Principate and the Despotism. Today we would call it "The
> > State". To Cicero his Res Publica was a "Respublica
> Libera"
> > (Free Republic) or even "Respublica Popularis" (Popular or
>
> > even "People's" Republic). It was opposed in the minds of
> > High Republicans to kingship and despotism on the one hand
>
> > (be that kingship ever so lawful) and mob rule on the
> other.
> > One usually considers states in which the magistrates are
> > elected by the people democratic. Rome did so and on a
> > yearly basis which gave a great deal of popular control
> > compared to today's longer terms. And in fact the Roman
> > Republic we emulate made its true laws by direct democracy
>
> > rather than representative democracy. And even if the
> > centuries are weighted, one could argue that that is less
> an
> > impediment to democracy than to have everything filtered
> > through parties, congressmen and parliaments. And in the
> > Tribunate we have the predecessor of the modern Ombudsman,
>
> > but more powerful. The Roman Republic not democratic? What
>
> > an idea!
> >
> > Even if this were not true of our model, the values of
> > the political cultures of our macronations - highly
> > democratic - would colour our expectations quite
> naturally.
> > Democracy - the governance of groups by the consent of the
>
> > governed with mechanisms to keep it that way - is moving
> to
> > word-wide victory on the basis of its merits. It has the
> > moral high ground, and so far as we can see, it will keep
> > it.
> >
> > Therefore I say: we live in a democratic society, and
> > people want to see a good reason for any exceptions to
> that
> > principle. I would - in a friendly way - advise Aeternia
> to
> > think about that so that she can get the willing and
> > continuing coöperation of our best minds and greatest
> > talents to make her beautiful idea a real success in the
> > service of Nova Roma.
>
> I would have left it at that and hoped that the moderating
> influences of others and Aeternia's own good sense would
> eventually lead to a reasonably democratic future for the
> Sodalitas. I had entered it primaruly at her request in
> order to help. (My own primary sodalitas activity is in the
> Sodalitas Latinitatis, which we have taken the greatest
> pains to ensure will be fully democratic.)
>
> However, reading the reply of Aeternia to my moderate and
> friendly letter of withdrawal, I became rather alarmed. She
> wrote:
>
> First off, I dont believe in democracy. All of the
> great philosophers in Western Civilzation spoke against
> democracy. They felt it was one of the worst forms of
> government out there. I believe that. I am a Roman, I
> believe in the Roman virtues and the Roman system of
> government, in that I believe in a Republic.
>
> We might note in passing that Socrates preferred to die in
> obedience to the laws and even the unfair judgement of a
> democratic jury in that arch-democratic State, Athens, when
> he could have easily escaped into exile. However, the real
> reason for her observation is that the word "democracy"
> acquired (after the heyday or Athens) the connotations of
> "mobocracy", and from Roman times right up to the eighteenth
> century people preferred to say "Republic" for a state not
> ruled by by one monarch and basing power on a more or less
> greater mass of the populace.
>
> Disregarding historical facts, however, I think it highly
> undesirable that people should be attracted to Nova Roma
> because of extreme rightist or authoritarian views, as
> though we were an alternative to democracy (in its modern
> positive meaning) rather than a specific kind of Roman
> Republican democracy (as we are according to our
> Constitution).
>
> And I think it extremely dangerous that people hide behind
> the term "Republic" using it as a code word for for some
> notion of illiberal Statism whose true name would be much
> less respectable.
>
> Nova Roma is modelled on a Respublica LIBERA or POPULARIS.
> And rather well modelled at that. Such a Respublica elects
> its magistrates, makes its most important laws by popular
> vote and is open to freedom of speech and freedom of
> association. And that is all very good - but if someone
> starts talking about a "Respublica" as though that were
> something other than a Respublica Libera, then one must find
> that suspect. That other "Respublica"is not the one of our
> Roman model or of our Constitution.
>
> So, in the end I regret that my son was so disgusted by
> power games that he left Nova Roma. Happily this was not due
> to the politics of our Respublica Herself, but only those of
> a still-forming sodalitas. But we must all always be beware
> of authoritariansm rearing its ugly head - or many heads
> like a Hydra - and be ready to cut them off. I hope that
> following the loss of my son in this matter we all might
> become more sensitised to this in all the corners of our
> Nova Roman culture. Power games make decent people disgusted
> and disgusted people leave. This is not to our advantage.
>
> Bene valete Quirites!
>
> --
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Scriba Censorius
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> ICQ# 61698049
> Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> ________________________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Your old buddies are not out of range anymore. Free search with
> Military.com's Personnel Locator.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4158/8/_/61050/_/963513926/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:12:10 -0700 |
|
Ave,
As someone who is helping Tink with her efforts in establishing this
Sodalias I just wanted to comment on this. First off, Tink has my
complete
support and confidence in her abilities to coordinate the various angles
necessary to create this Sodalias. Second, I think it is in very poor
taste
of Marcus Apollonius Formosanus to post this on another list. To me its
like posting a private email on the main list. If our citizens were
intersted in the Sodalias Musarium they would subscribe to that list.
Personality conflicts should not be posted on the main list. Also, I
find
it in poor taste that only snippets of her response has been posted by
Formosanus. I will not post her entire response, but I recommend any
citizen that if they are interested, please check the archieves on that
list
to see the ENTIRE post in question. I apologize to have to clutter our
main list with this rebuttal, but I felt it is necessary given the very
criticial post by Formosanus.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:
> Salvete Cives Novae Romae.
>
> It is a source of great regret to me that my gentile son
> Quintus Apollonius Flaccus has decided to leave Nova Roma. I
> would not have done so quite as quickly as he in his place,
> but he was seriously provoked.
>
> This relates to the Sodalitas Musarum which has been
> organising itself on the ForTheMuses List, so the affair
> might not be well known to many of you. The problem has been
> that Aeternia Draconia, the organiser, has decided to keep
> in her own hands the power of the sodalitas-to-be, when one
> might have normally expected her to make decisions by votes
> of the founding contributers. She indeed announced about a
> week ago that there would be a vote on the structure and
> governance of the Sodalitas, but this seem to have been
> cancelled by her.
>
> In this course of this discussion my son Quintus made a
> proposal to be responsible for the Greek section, which he
> proposed to do in a less "formal and official" manner
> because some participants preferred to downplay the Greek
> element in our essentially Roman society. He wished to do
> the work himself and offer it to Nova Roma for whatever
> interest it might hold for us. It might be very reasonably
> objected (as Sulla did, later) that all of Greek culture is
> too much for one person, and that others might like to
> participate in that labour. However, Aeternia simply said
> (and I quote):
>
> a.) The Greek section *will* be part of the
> "official" sodalitas. b.) You *may* work on the Greek
> Section, but *not* alone. I'm sure you'll still find
> great pleasure on working on it. [Emphasis mine.]
>
> Since the whole matter was still under active discussion,
> the peremptory and imperious tone of those words "WILL" and
> "MAY" naturally stung my son. This was not the tone of
> friendly, mutually-respectful discussion, as we had
> thitherto enjoyed. Quintus responded, accusing her of acting
> like a "Queen", which greatly offended her. I myself would
> not have used exactly such language, out of considerations
> of politeness, but I would have thought it!
>
> I subsequently decided that since Aeternia and I had
> different ideas of the public vs. private nature of this
> group, it would be better for me to withdraw with a minimum
> of ill will on both sides. In my resignation I considered it
> important to advise Aeternia that people really do take
> democracy seriously and will be offended if their chances to
> take part in social decision-making processes are
> unreasonably thwarted. In part I wrote ***and I think this
> is important for ALL Nova Romans to read***:
>
> > I would like to pause here to reflect on our democracy.
> > There are people who say from time to time that "Nova Roma
>
> > is not a Democracy, but a Respublica". And they use this
> to
> > try to reduce democratic feedback in our society.
> > Historically this is illegitimate. "Res Publica" is a term
>
> > which applies to the Monarchy and the Republic and the
> > Principate and the Despotism. Today we would call it "The
> > State". To Cicero his Res Publica was a "Respublica
> Libera"
> > (Free Republic) or even "Respublica Popularis" (Popular or
>
> > even "People's" Republic). It was opposed in the minds of
> > High Republicans to kingship and despotism on the one hand
>
> > (be that kingship ever so lawful) and mob rule on the
> other.
> > One usually considers states in which the magistrates are
> > elected by the people democratic. Rome did so and on a
> > yearly basis which gave a great deal of popular control
> > compared to today's longer terms. And in fact the Roman
> > Republic we emulate made its true laws by direct democracy
>
> > rather than representative democracy. And even if the
> > centuries are weighted, one could argue that that is less
> an
> > impediment to democracy than to have everything filtered
> > through parties, congressmen and parliaments. And in the
> > Tribunate we have the predecessor of the modern Ombudsman,
>
> > but more powerful. The Roman Republic not democratic? What
>
> > an idea!
> >
> > Even if this were not true of our model, the values of
> > the political cultures of our macronations - highly
> > democratic - would colour our expectations quite
> naturally.
> > Democracy - the governance of groups by the consent of the
>
> > governed with mechanisms to keep it that way - is moving
> to
> > word-wide victory on the basis of its merits. It has the
> > moral high ground, and so far as we can see, it will keep
> > it.
> >
> > Therefore I say: we live in a democratic society, and
> > people want to see a good reason for any exceptions to
> that
> > principle. I would - in a friendly way - advise Aeternia
> to
> > think about that so that she can get the willing and
> > continuing coöperation of our best minds and greatest
> > talents to make her beautiful idea a real success in the
> > service of Nova Roma.
>
> I would have left it at that and hoped that the moderating
> influences of others and Aeternia's own good sense would
> eventually lead to a reasonably democratic future for the
> Sodalitas. I had entered it primaruly at her request in
> order to help. (My own primary sodalitas activity is in the
> Sodalitas Latinitatis, which we have taken the greatest
> pains to ensure will be fully democratic.)
>
> However, reading the reply of Aeternia to my moderate and
> friendly letter of withdrawal, I became rather alarmed. She
> wrote:
>
> First off, I dont believe in democracy. All of the
> great philosophers in Western Civilzation spoke against
> democracy. They felt it was one of the worst forms of
> government out there. I believe that. I am a Roman, I
> believe in the Roman virtues and the Roman system of
> government, in that I believe in a Republic.
>
> We might note in passing that Socrates preferred to die in
> obedience to the laws and even the unfair judgement of a
> democratic jury in that arch-democratic State, Athens, when
> he could have easily escaped into exile. However, the real
> reason for her observation is that the word "democracy"
> acquired (after the heyday or Athens) the connotations of
> "mobocracy", and from Roman times right up to the eighteenth
> century people preferred to say "Republic" for a state not
> ruled by by one monarch and basing power on a more or less
> greater mass of the populace.
>
> Disregarding historical facts, however, I think it highly
> undesirable that people should be attracted to Nova Roma
> because of extreme rightist or authoritarian views, as
> though we were an alternative to democracy (in its modern
> positive meaning) rather than a specific kind of Roman
> Republican democracy (as we are according to our
> Constitution).
>
> And I think it extremely dangerous that people hide behind
> the term "Republic" using it as a code word for for some
> notion of illiberal Statism whose true name would be much
> less respectable.
>
> Nova Roma is modelled on a Respublica LIBERA or POPULARIS.
> And rather well modelled at that. Such a Respublica elects
> its magistrates, makes its most important laws by popular
> vote and is open to freedom of speech and freedom of
> association. And that is all very good - but if someone
> starts talking about a "Respublica" as though that were
> something other than a Respublica Libera, then one must find
> that suspect. That other "Respublica"is not the one of our
> Roman model or of our Constitution.
>
> So, in the end I regret that my son was so disgusted by
> power games that he left Nova Roma. Happily this was not due
> to the politics of our Respublica Herself, but only those of
> a still-forming sodalitas. But we must all always be beware
> of authoritariansm rearing its ugly head - or many heads
> like a Hydra - and be ready to cut them off. I hope that
> following the loss of my son in this matter we all might
> become more sensitised to this in all the corners of our
> Nova Roman culture. Power games make decent people disgusted
> and disgusted people leave. This is not to our advantage.
>
> Bene valete Quirites!
>
> --
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Scriba Censorius
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> ICQ# 61698049
> Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> ________________________________________________________
>
>
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>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:41:16 -0500 (CDT) |
|
> I will not post her entire response, but I recommend any
> citizen that if they are interested, please check the archieves on that
> list to see the ENTIRE post in question.
I just tried to do so and found that the archives of that list are
now closed to non-members (and membership requires approval).
I'm sorry to see this happen. The younger Apollonius apparently was willing
and able to contribute, yet now he has left Nova Roma entirely, merely
because of a disagreement within a particular Sodalitas. Hopefully he
will reconsider during the nine-day cooling-off period.
One can certainly be a citizen even while considering another citizen
an enemy!
--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Your Son |
| From: |
Fortunatus <labienus@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:42:41 -0500 |
|
T Labienus M Apollonio S P D
As your son requested not to be contacted concerning his resignation
from Nova Roma, I am asking you to pass along my best wishes for his
Museion project. Considering the industry, intelligence, and maturity
he showed while a member of the Sodalitas Musarum, I have no doubt it
will be successful.
Vale
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:55:36 -0700 |
|
Actually he hasnt resigned. I do not accept resignation notices unless they
come from the citizen in question. It would be like me saying to the
Censors that Q.Fabius Maximus resigns his citizenship. Sorry, something
that important must come from the citizen in question, no one else.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
To: NovaRoma <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
>
> > I will not post her entire response, but I recommend any
> > citizen that if they are interested, please check the archieves on that
> > list to see the ENTIRE post in question.
>
> I just tried to do so and found that the archives of that list are
> now closed to non-members (and membership requires approval).
>
> I'm sorry to see this happen. The younger Apollonius apparently was
willing
> and able to contribute, yet now he has left Nova Roma entirely, merely
> because of a disagreement within a particular Sodalitas. Hopefully he
> will reconsider during the nine-day cooling-off period.
>
> One can certainly be a citizen even while considering another citizen
> an enemy!
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
> Microsoft delenda est!
> http://www.graveyards.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Your old buddies are not out of range anymore. Free search with
> Military.com's Personnel Locator.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4158/8/_/61050/_/963527705/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy |
| From: |
Lykaion1@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:57:02 EDT |
|
Salve,
Democracy sucks, esp. when the attempt is made to impose it on a PRIVATE
list, which is NOT a Sodalias yet.
Festus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Military Step |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:02:14 +0100 |
|
Quiritibus salutem
My thanks to all who offered information on the Roman military step. The
knowledge that a citizen of NR has access to, via fellow-citizens, is
awesome.
I wonder, after digesting them all, whether Vegetius wasn't watching a
column of Praetorians doing the equivalent of a BFT (Basic Fitness Test): 10
miles out of Rome, 10 miles back in time for tea, no nasty entrenching or
bivvying, or time out for recce...
Next question, O military historians and re-enactors: wasn't there an award
made to a soldier who saved a comrade's life on the battlefield? I think it
was a corona of grass, but I can't remember where I read that. Can anyone
confirm (preferably with source(s))?
Etiam gratias vobis habeo,
Vado.
Post scriptum - sic Vindex:
> Of course, if our esteemed propraetor does visit my legion at Rockbourne,
> and if he still wants to know how it feels to run around in kit......>:->
Mi Vindeci, I thank you for the kind offer, and shall be delighted to
accompany Leg II Aug on the next 25-mile route march in your training
schedule. See you and Sulicena at Rockbourne, whatever. :-)
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