Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:58:09 EDT

In a message dated 7/13/00 7:56:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
alexious@-------- writes:

<< Actually he hasnt resigned. I do not accept resignation notices unless
they
come from the citizen in question. >>

How long till his dramatic return?

Festus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:16:20 -0700

Well finally when this post has finally arrived I have received notification
of his resignation. He shall now fall within the 9 day period where he can
reconsider his decision.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy


> Actually he hasnt resigned. I do not accept resignation notices unless
they
> come from the citizen in question. It would be like me saying to the
> Censors that Q.Fabius Maximus resigns his citizenship. Sorry, something
> that important must come from the citizen in question, no one else.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
> To: NovaRoma <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
>
>
> >
> > > I will not post her entire response, but I recommend any
> > > citizen that if they are interested, please check the archieves on
that
> > > list to see the ENTIRE post in question.
> >
> > I just tried to do so and found that the archives of that list are
> > now closed to non-members (and membership requires approval).
> >
> > I'm sorry to see this happen. The younger Apollonius apparently was
> willing
> > and able to contribute, yet now he has left Nova Roma entirely, merely
> > because of a disagreement within a particular Sodalitas. Hopefully he
> > will reconsider during the nine-day cooling-off period.
> >
> > One can certainly be a citizen even while considering another citizen
> > an enemy!
> >
> > --
> > M. Octavius Germanicus
> > Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
> > Microsoft delenda est!
> > http://www.graveyards.com/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Your old buddies are not out of range anymore. Free search with
> > Military.com's Personnel Locator.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/4158/8/_/61050/_/963527705/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Military.com's Personnel Locator.
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>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Your Son
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:01:08 -0500

Salvete

Oops! My apologies for sending a private message to the list. I really
need to get more sleep. Sigh.

Valete,
T Labienus Fortunatus



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] for my friends at NR
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:26:50 -0400

Always great to know there's another Citizen on ICQ! My ICQ number is 56878474. My screen name is Lucilla Cornelia. I look forward to speaking with you!

Valete bene,

Lucilla Cornelia Aurelia Antonina
Scriba

novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> Great, thanks for posting that, my ICQ number is 2122309
> My AIM is NovaRoman
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
>
> Daniel Oscar Villanueva wrote:
>
> > L. Pompeius Octavianus omnibus S.P.D.
> > Salvete.
> > Some days ago, I read a post on IM. After that I decided to download and
> > install ICQ. So, This message is for all my friends here at NR, and for
> > those who eventually would like to contact me. My ICQ number is : 50829011 ,
> > and I use my roman name. So youŽll find me  at ICQ as : name=Lucius
> > lastname= Pompeius Octavianus and nickname = Lucius.
> > Curate ut valeatis.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Your old buddies are not out of range anymore. Free search with
> > Military.com's Personnel Locator.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/4158/8/_/61050/_/963472394/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>

----------
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail/

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Subject:	[novaroma] In re Apollonius Minor
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:43:10 -0000

Patricia Cassia omnibus SPD

I do hope that during this cooling-off period young Apollonius
reconsiders his decision to leave. Nova Roma, while it may have
brought
together many of the people in the ForTheMuses group, has not
officially authorized it as a sodalitas. Should the group come before
the Senate for official approval, its charter would be a part of the
Senate's review.

Nova Roma needs the energy of any who is willing to work in the areas
of history and literature, particularly with a view towards making
our
Web site more informative in these areas. I strongly encourage all
who
have an interest in such work to choose a project that interests them
and do it, or inquire of the magistrates what work might be needed.

Cordially,
Patricia Cassia



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Subject:	[novaroma] Translation of Isis Prayer
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:58:06 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Gaio Lupinio Festo S.P.D.

Here is a translation of the prayer. Osiris and Serapis
are not the same god. If you prefer Serapis here, the
correct form would be "Serapide" or "Serape". (It has two
alternative declensions - so too could Osiride in this
position be "Osire")

I dealt with Geb and Nut by adding "of the Goddess" Nut
and "of the God" Geb and, and keeping the original forms
uninflected. This is sometimes legitimate in Latin. If that
additon is displeasing, it is possible to do as the Vulgate
does with the Hebrew name saying "Filius David" for "son OF
David, with the unmarked genitive understood. If one
preferred that translation strategy, one would drop the
"deae" and "dei" before "Nut" and "Geb".

"Isis" (EEsiss) is the nominative and vocative form.
"Isidis" is a genitive.

The meaning of the title implies that the worshipper awakens
Her, rather than that She awakens. "Expergiscere" (a passive
imperative form) inplies that She is to do the waking up
which we are exhorting Her to do.

_____________________________________
ORATIO EXCITATIONIS
_____________________________________
Expergiscere, expergiscere, expergiscere,
Expergiscere in pace,
Domina pacis,
Orire in pace,
Orire in pulchritudine,
Dea Vitae,
Pulchra in caelo.
Pax est in caelo,
Pax est in terra,
O Dea,
Filia deae Nut,
Filia dei Geb,
Amata ab Osiride,
Dea abundans nominibus!
Omnis laus sit Tibi,
Omnis laus sit Tibi,
Te adoro,
Te adoro,
O Domina Isis!


Vale!
_________________________________________

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:54:38 EDT
From: Lykaion1@--------
Subject: Latin Translation Needed

Salvete,

Is there anyone fluent in Latin who could translate this
prayer into Latin
for me? I know that Isis in Latin is Isidis, and that
Serapis had replaced
Osiris as the name of her consort. I don't know what the
Romans called
Nut and Geb though.

Prayer Of Awakening

Awake, awake, awake
Awake in peace,
Lady of peace,
Rise thou in peace,
Rise thou in beauty,
Goddess of life,
Beautiful in heaven,
Heaven is in peace,
Earth is in peace,
O Goddess,
Daughter of Nut,
Daughter of Geb,
Beloved of Osiris,
Goddess rich in names!
All praise to You,
All praise to You,
I adore You
I adore You
Lady Isis!

--
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Scriba Censorius
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	"Little Dragon" <fionaerin@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:51:18 -0000

---Salvete Omnes,

I apologize for this incident to appear on this particular list.
Sulla is absolutely right, Formosanus not only acted in bad taste,
also plain out tackiness. My apologies Senators and fellow citizens
of Nova Roma.




Valete
Aeternia Draconia













In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> As someone who is helping Tink with her efforts in establishing this
> Sodalias I just wanted to comment on this. First off, Tink has my
complete
> support and confidence in her abilities to coordinate the various
angles
> necessary to create this Sodalias. Second, I think it is in very
poor taste
> of Marcus Apollonius Formosanus to post this on another list. To
me its
> like posting a private email on the main list. If our citizens were
> intersted in the Sodalias Musarium they would subscribe to that
list.
> Personality conflicts should not be posted on the main list. Also,
I find
> it in poor taste that only snippets of her response has been posted
by
> Formosanus. I will not post her entire response, but I recommend
any
> citizen that if they are interested, please check the archieves on
that list
> to see the ENTIRE post in question. I apologize to have to
clutter our
> main list with this rebuttal, but I felt it is necessary given the
very
> criticial post by Formosanus.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
>
> "M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:
>
> > Salvete Cives Novae Romae.
> >
> > It is a source of great regret to me that my gentile son
> > Quintus Apollonius Flaccus has decided to leave Nova Roma. I
> > would not have done so quite as quickly as he in his place,
> > but he was seriously provoked.
> >
> > This relates to the Sodalitas Musarum which has been
> > organising itself on the ForTheMuses List, so the affair
> > might not be well known to many of you. The problem has been
> > that Aeternia Draconia, the organiser, has decided to keep
> > in her own hands the power of the sodalitas-to-be, when one
> > might have normally expected her to make decisions by votes
> > of the founding contributers. She indeed announced about a
> > week ago that there would be a vote on the structure and
> > governance of the Sodalitas, but this seem to have been
> > cancelled by her.
> >
> > In this course of this discussion my son Quintus made a
> > proposal to be responsible for the Greek section, which he
> > proposed to do in a less "formal and official" manner
> > because some participants preferred to downplay the Greek
> > element in our essentially Roman society. He wished to do
> > the work himself and offer it to Nova Roma for whatever
> > interest it might hold for us. It might be very reasonably
> > objected (as Sulla did, later) that all of Greek culture is
> > too much for one person, and that others might like to
> > participate in that labour. However, Aeternia simply said
> > (and I quote):
> >
> > a.) The Greek section *will* be part of the
> > "official" sodalitas. b.) You *may* work on the Greek
> > Section, but *not* alone. I'm sure you'll still find
> > great pleasure on working on it. [Emphasis mine.]
> >
> > Since the whole matter was still under active discussion,
> > the peremptory and imperious tone of those words "WILL" and
> > "MAY" naturally stung my son. This was not the tone of
> > friendly, mutually-respectful discussion, as we had
> > thitherto enjoyed. Quintus responded, accusing her of acting
> > like a "Queen", which greatly offended her. I myself would
> > not have used exactly such language, out of considerations
> > of politeness, but I would have thought it!
> >
> > I subsequently decided that since Aeternia and I had
> > different ideas of the public vs. private nature of this
> > group, it would be better for me to withdraw with a minimum
> > of ill will on both sides. In my resignation I considered it
> > important to advise Aeternia that people really do take
> > democracy seriously and will be offended if their chances to
> > take part in social decision-making processes are
> > unreasonably thwarted. In part I wrote ***and I think this
> > is important for ALL Nova Romans to read***:
> >
> > > I would like to pause here to reflect on our democracy.
> > > There are people who say from time to time that "Nova Roma
> >
> > > is not a Democracy, but a Respublica". And they use this
> > to
> > > try to reduce democratic feedback in our society.
> > > Historically this is illegitimate. "Res Publica" is a term
> >
> > > which applies to the Monarchy and the Republic and the
> > > Principate and the Despotism. Today we would call it "The
> > > State". To Cicero his Res Publica was a "Respublica
> > Libera"
> > > (Free Republic) or even "Respublica Popularis" (Popular or
> >
> > > even "People's" Republic). It was opposed in the minds of
> > > High Republicans to kingship and despotism on the one hand
> >
> > > (be that kingship ever so lawful) and mob rule on the
> > other.
> > > One usually considers states in which the magistrates are
> > > elected by the people democratic. Rome did so and on a
> > > yearly basis which gave a great deal of popular control
> > > compared to today's longer terms. And in fact the Roman
> > > Republic we emulate made its true laws by direct democracy
> >
> > > rather than representative democracy. And even if the
> > > centuries are weighted, one could argue that that is less
> > an
> > > impediment to democracy than to have everything filtered
> > > through parties, congressmen and parliaments. And in the
> > > Tribunate we have the predecessor of the modern Ombudsman,
> >
> > > but more powerful. The Roman Republic not democratic? What
> >
> > > an idea!
> > >
> > > Even if this were not true of our model, the values of
> > > the political cultures of our macronations - highly
> > > democratic - would colour our expectations quite
> > naturally.
> > > Democracy - the governance of groups by the consent of the
> >
> > > governed with mechanisms to keep it that way - is moving
> > to
> > > word-wide victory on the basis of its merits. It has the
> > > moral high ground, and so far as we can see, it will keep
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Therefore I say: we live in a democratic society, and
> > > people want to see a good reason for any exceptions to
> > that
> > > principle. I would - in a friendly way - advise Aeternia
> > to
> > > think about that so that she can get the willing and
> > > continuing coöperation of our best minds and greatest
> > > talents to make her beautiful idea a real success in the
> > > service of Nova Roma.
> >
> > I would have left it at that and hoped that the moderating
> > influences of others and Aeternia's own good sense would
> > eventually lead to a reasonably democratic future for the
> > Sodalitas. I had entered it primaruly at her request in
> > order to help. (My own primary sodalitas activity is in the
> > Sodalitas Latinitatis, which we have taken the greatest
> > pains to ensure will be fully democratic.)
> >
> > However, reading the reply of Aeternia to my moderate and
> > friendly letter of withdrawal, I became rather alarmed. She
> > wrote:
> >
> > First off, I dont believe in democracy. All of the
> > great philosophers in Western Civilzation spoke against
> > democracy. They felt it was one of the worst forms of
> > government out there. I believe that. I am a Roman, I
> > believe in the Roman virtues and the Roman system of
> > government, in that I believe in a Republic.
> >
> > We might note in passing that Socrates preferred to die in
> > obedience to the laws and even the unfair judgement of a
> > democratic jury in that arch-democratic State, Athens, when
> > he could have easily escaped into exile. However, the real
> > reason for her observation is that the word "democracy"
> > acquired (after the heyday or Athens) the connotations of
> > "mobocracy", and from Roman times right up to the eighteenth
> > century people preferred to say "Republic" for a state not
> > ruled by by one monarch and basing power on a more or less
> > greater mass of the populace.
> >
> > Disregarding historical facts, however, I think it highly
> > undesirable that people should be attracted to Nova Roma
> > because of extreme rightist or authoritarian views, as
> > though we were an alternative to democracy (in its modern
> > positive meaning) rather than a specific kind of Roman
> > Republican democracy (as we are according to our
> > Constitution).
> >
> > And I think it extremely dangerous that people hide behind
> > the term "Republic" using it as a code word for for some
> > notion of illiberal Statism whose true name would be much
> > less respectable.
> >
> > Nova Roma is modelled on a Respublica LIBERA or POPULARIS.
> > And rather well modelled at that. Such a Respublica elects
> > its magistrates, makes its most important laws by popular
> > vote and is open to freedom of speech and freedom of
> > association. And that is all very good - but if someone
> > starts talking about a "Respublica" as though that were
> > something other than a Respublica Libera, then one must find
> > that suspect. That other "Respublica"is not the one of our
> > Roman model or of our Constitution.
> >
> > So, in the end I regret that my son was so disgusted by
> > power games that he left Nova Roma. Happily this was not due
> > to the politics of our Respublica Herself, but only those of
> > a still-forming sodalitas. But we must all always be beware
> > of authoritariansm rearing its ugly head - or many heads
> > like a Hydra - and be ready to cut them off. I hope that
> > following the loss of my son in this matter we all might
> > become more sensitised to this in all the corners of our
> > Nova Roman culture. Power games make decent people disgusted
> > and disgusted people leave. This is not to our advantage.
> >
> > Bene valete Quirites!
> >
> > --
> > Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> > Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> > Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> > Scriba Censorius
> > Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> > ICQ# 61698049
> > Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> > The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> > ________________________________________________________
> >
> > Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> > [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> > ________________________________________________________
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> > Your old buddies are not out of range anymore. Free search with
> > Military.com's Personnel Locator.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/4158/8/_/61050/_/963513926/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------


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Subject:	[novaroma] Slight Change
From:	"Little Dragon" <fionaerin@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:29:43 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

There has been a slight change, on my e-mail list ForTheMuses the
archives are now open to the public. For those who are curious what
the heckles Formosanus was referring to. Also on the list we are
always accepting new members.




Valete
Aeternia Draconia


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Subject:	[novaroma] Thanks
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:34:31 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus, Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae,
M. Octavio Germanico et T. Labieno S.P.D.

Thank you very much for your kind words about my filius
Quintus. He was terribly disillusioned and frustrated, and I
have passed your words on to him hoping that they may make
him feel better and see matters more in proportion. Knowing
that he has friends here who have observed his intelligence,
love of justice, and willingness to work is one of the most
likely ways to convince him to return if that turns out to
be possible.

I thank you on behalf of Quintus and the whole Gens
Apollonia.


Valete optime, Amici.

-----------------------------------------------
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Scriba Censorius
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
VIVAT RESPUBLICA NOSTRA LIBERA - NOVA ROMA!
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________



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Subject:	[novaroma] Take 2 & more Latin Isis links
From:	"Chad Kieffer" <ckieffe@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:15:46 -0500

Oops, I realized I should have used the imperative instead of the indicative
in my translation in the first few lines as I was pressing the "send"
button. Sorry! Too little sleep lately. A fixed translation is below.
Also here are a few more Latin links for anyone else interested in Isis or
Osiris and Latin literature. Goin' to bed...

Apuleius' "Golden Ass" Books 1 & 11 in tagged Latin and in English:
http://www.geocities.com/ckieffe/Book11_Main.html
http://www.geocities.com/ckieffe/Book1_Main.html

Two Tibullus poems in tagged Latin:
http://www.egroups.com/files/NovaRoma-Isis/Texts/Tibullus/tibullus3_Main.htm
l
http://www.egroups.com/files/NovaRoma-Isis/Texts/Tibullus/tibullus7_Main.htm
l
(you may have to copy and paste the above links into your browser instead of
clicking on them, since they're so long, they may get broken up into
multiple lines)

Fixed translation:

PRECATIO SUSCITANTIS

Expergiscere, expergiscere, expergiscere,
Expergiscere in pace,
Domina pacis,
Surge in pace,
Surge in pulchritudine,
O Dea vitae,
Speciosa in caelo,
Caelum in pace est,
Terra in pace est,
O Dea,
O Filia Nutis,
O Filia Gebis,
Cara Osiridi,
O Dea multinominis!
Omnis laus tibi,
Omnis laus tibi,
Te veneror,
Te veneror,
O Domina Isi!










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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Military Step
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:06:26 EDT

In a message dated 7/13/2000 5:02:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
gens_moravia@-------- writes:

<< Vegetius wasn't watching a
column of Praetorians doing the equivalent of a BFT (Basic Fitness Test): 10
miles out of Rome, 10 miles back in time for tea, no nasty entrenching or
bivvying, or time out for recce... >>
Except there were no Praetorians by then, they had been superseded by the
Scholae. Other then that you probably are correct.
Vale
QFM

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Subject:	[novaroma] Quintus' resignation
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:07:36 +0200

Sextus Apollonius Draco Quiritibus S.P.D.

I first want to apologize for my sloth in getting into the debate
concerning Quintus, but I was badly informed until yesterday late in the
evening and this morning, when I got the digest, and an e-mail from my
paterfamilias M.A. Formosanus.

I think that the lid in the ForTheMuses-list was to blow off sooner or
later. It was a relatively small list, and I felt that Quintus'
discontentment was growing because he was feeling that all of his ideas met
adamant opposition. He overreacted. Most of the people involved
overreacted. I thought ForTheMuses was a poetry- and arts-list, not a
bite-each-other's-head-off-list. I think what doubles the stupidity of this
whole discussion is the fact that there are barely 20 members of that list,
and yet the struggle for power and domination takes the upper hand instead
of polite discussions on arts and poetry. Why all this heavy talks? Why do
people consider themselves so important? This is not meant to be a personal
attack, but a general one to the people who lost themselves in heavy
debates on that list, while it was only concerning a Sodalitas-in-growth on
a list of 20 people! No wonder it got personal rather quickly. I don't know
Draconia as well as I know Quintus, but I won't take particular sides. All
that I know is that Quintus does not like to be ordered like a child.
"Libertas" and "dignitas" are very important principles to him. And I think
that it is true that one's liberty ends where that of another begins.
Respect, Quirites, respect!

I don't think that it is bad taste from my paterfamilias to tell of the
resignation of Quintus on the main list. A resignation is a fact important
enough to be mentioned, and disregarding the fact whether his reasons were
right or not, if someone leaves Nova Roma, that *always* has a reason that
may be worth looking into for the other citizens and certainly the
Magistrates. If this whole topic would have been handled behind closed
doors, no one would have known what is going on.

And on a sidenote, why didn't I get the ForTheMuses-digest yesterday? Was
it a coincidental bug, or was I scrapped from it for being an NR-family
member and friend of Quintus (I, so far, did not interfere in this whole
discussion thus I was innocent!)? I will not be paranoid and I sincerely
hope it was the former reason.

Habete diem iuncundum,
Sextus Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Take 2 & more Latin Isis links
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:35:07 EDT

Great! Thanks much for the translation!

GL Festus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:41:09 -0500

Salve Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Let's try this on for size:

You may continue to post your opinions to this forum, but in doing so you
will refrain from characterizing the actions of your fellow citizens.

How does that sound to you? If you and I have any biology and psychology
in common, your jaw muscles are even now tightening, your shoulders are
squaring, your brows are furrowing, and anger is rising in your gut as
you reach for your pugio... er, keyboard.

Relax! It was only an illustrative example.

If one chooses to address another in terms implying imperium such as
those, one needs to also have the power that *real* imperium represents,
and even if one has such raw power to wield, one needs to have a
legitimate reason for wielding it. Otherwise such a form of address
merely elicits anger and resentment, as we have seen several times since
the founding of Nova Roma.

In working at resurrecting the Roman Republic, we need to bear in mind
that there is no real imperium here -- none of us commands legions under
arms, or even one lousy praetorian cohort. Imperium in Roma Antiqua had
its roots in raw power -- "force majeur." Any imperium that is held in
Nova Roma depends upon a mutually agreed sharing of goals and of love of
things Roman. A whole lot of nasty conflict here could be avoided if we
avoid trying to *command* and "coerce* one another and instead learn to
work as partners with one another. (And in doing so, we just might help
save our species from the disease of leadership, which is more of a
threat to our continued existence than is HIV.)

It sounds as if this spat between Aeternia Draconia and Apollonius
Flaccus arises out of just such an effort to assert or imply authority
over fellow citizens. Such efforts will inevitably tear Nova Roma apart,
as they have done in the past. If you encourage them, then you will bear
a part of the responsibility for the damage to the State. It would be
admirable and honorable to encourage citizens to work cooperatively with
one another.

For my part, I think it quite appropriate for Apollonius Formosanus to
have expressed his concern here in the forum. Nova Roma must get past
this ridiculous fantasy that being Roman means ordering other people
around and controlling them, else Nova Roma is going nowhere but into the
dumper. If there is more to the story than what was posted, then let it
come out.

In that regard, I applaud the action of Aeternia Draconia in opening the
archives of that list to others who may want to know more about what has
happened.

Vale,

L. Sergius Australicus


On 7/13/00 12:56 PM Lucius Cornelius Sulla (alexious@--------) wrote:

>Ave,
>
>As someone who is helping Tink with her efforts in establishing this
>Sodalias I just wanted to comment on this. First off, Tink has my complete
>support and confidence in her abilities to coordinate the various angles
>necessary to create this Sodalias. Second, I think it is in very poor taste
>of Marcus Apollonius Formosanus to post this on another list. To me its
>like posting a private email on the main list. If our citizens were
>intersted in the Sodalias Musarium they would subscribe to that list.
>Personality conflicts should not be posted on the main list. Also, I find
>it in poor taste that only snippets of her response has been posted by
>Formosanus. I will not post her entire response, but I recommend any
>citizen that if they are interested, please check the archieves on that list
>to see the ENTIRE post in question. I apologize to have to clutter our
>main list with this rebuttal, but I felt it is necessary given the very
>criticial post by Formosanus.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Quintus' resignation
From:	"Little Dragon" <fionaerin@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:59:03 -0000

---Salve Sextus Apollonius Draco,

Although I feel you may be instructed not to listen to anything I
say, I'm going to respond to this anyway. You are right when you say
I over reacted, in a way I did. If I hadn't have gotten so defensive
about your Pater's proposal, this havoc wouldn't be happening in the
first place. But you how us dragons are when we feel we've been
threatened we bite. You will also have to admit what your brother and
Pater allegated was pretty harsh. Maybe as usual I'm not stating this
right and more havoc will ensue, but I am truly sorry about all this
chaos. In response to what you said about having heavy talks, and my
e-mail list being a haven for poetry. When attempting to making an
idea for some things have to be discussed. (You are understanding
what I'm saying right? Not just you but hopefully everyone.)When you
say Quintus feels strong about "dignitas" and "libertas", that I can
understand about. How come your brother doesn't feel that way about
"respect" and "manners" shouldn't he and your Pater have those
qualities as well? (I know you're going to despise me for that one
but I had to exspress my personal opinion.) To answer about not
recieving your digest, speaking of coincidences it took me SIX times
yesterday to get into the Latinitas list, (The list your Pater owns
may I add).
So with my own paranoia I was indeed thinking the worst. Not to worry
Sextus I didn't unsubscribe you, I enjoy your posts (especially your
wonderful dark poetry.) I'm curious though did your younger brother
tell you he unsubscribed and then after he unsubscribed he wanted to
subscribed again? (On my list subscription has to be approved by the
moderator or owner. Guess who that is? That's right myself and now
Lucilla Cornelia Aurelia Antonina.)Anyway I'm sorry you didn't
recieve your digest in the future if you like, I can send it to you
if you have this problem again. Anyway I'll be quiet now, sorry
civies for such a long post, but this one was a little neccessary.



Valete
Aeternia Draconia
















In novaroma@--------, "Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
> Sextus Apollonius Draco Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> I first want to apologize for my sloth in getting into the debate
> concerning Quintus, but I was badly informed until yesterday late
in the
> evening and this morning, when I got the digest, and an e-mail from
my
> paterfamilias M.A. Formosanus.
>
> I think that the lid in the ForTheMuses-list was to blow off sooner
or
> later. It was a relatively small list, and I felt that Quintus'
> discontentment was growing because he was feeling that all of his
ideas met
> adamant opposition. He overreacted. Most of the people involved
> overreacted. I thought ForTheMuses was a poetry- and arts-list, not
a
> bite-each-other's-head-off-list. I think what doubles the stupidity
of this
> whole discussion is the fact that there are barely 20 members of
that list,
> and yet the struggle for power and domination takes the upper hand
instead
> of polite discussions on arts and poetry. Why all this heavy talks?
Why do
> people consider themselves so important? This is not meant to be a
personal
> attack, but a general one to the people who lost themselves in heavy
> debates on that list, while it was only concerning a Sodalitas-in-
growth on
> a list of 20 people! No wonder it got personal rather quickly. I
don't know
> Draconia as well as I know Quintus, but I won't take particular
sides. All
> that I know is that Quintus does not like to be ordered like a
child.
> "Libertas" and "dignitas" are very important principles to him. And
I think
> that it is true that one's liberty ends where that of another
begins.
> Respect, Quirites, respect!
>
> I don't think that it is bad taste from my paterfamilias to tell of
the
> resignation of Quintus on the main list. A resignation is a fact
important
> enough to be mentioned, and disregarding the fact whether his
reasons were
> right or not, if someone leaves Nova Roma, that *always* has a
reason that
> may be worth looking into for the other citizens and certainly the
> Magistrates. If this whole topic would have been handled behind
closed
> doors, no one would have known what is going on.
>
> And on a sidenote, why didn't I get the ForTheMuses-digest
yesterday? Was
> it a coincidental bug, or was I scrapped from it for being an NR-
family
> member and friend of Quintus (I, so far, did not interfere in this
whole
> discussion thus I was innocent!)? I will not be paranoid and I
sincerely
> hope it was the former reason.
>
> Habete diem iuncundum,
> Sextus Apollonius Draco


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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Pridie Idus Quinctilias (July 8th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:42:50 +0100

Salvete omnes

For the faithful of the cult of the Divi Imperatores:
This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action or public business can take place.
Today, is the Dies Natalis Iuli Caesaris, the birthday of Divus Iulius (He
was born in circa 100 BCE), equated to Iuppiter. Games were held on the
Circus.
Ave Divus Iulius!

The month of Quinctilis was renamed Iulius in 44 BCE in honour of the
deified C. Iulius Caesar. This month is sacred to Iuppiter.

Pax Deorum vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex



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Subject:	[novaroma] Chat room
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:52:50 -0000

Patricia Cassia NovaRomanae SPD

Greetings! The Senate is considering options for improving our chat
room (Taverna). If you have been to a chat area which you consider
easy
to use, or if you have administered a chat forum which you found to
have flexible, effective and reliable software behind it, please send
a
message to us at senate@--------

many thanks,
Patricia Cassia



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Latin Translation Needed -- Here's one
From:	"Chad Kieffer" <ckieffe@-------->
Date:	Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:45:32 -0500

Salvete!
I apologize if someone has answered this already -- I'm on digest on the
main Nova Roma list. I'm certainly not fluent in Latin (even though I have
a degree in Classics), but since I'm a founding Triumvir of the Latinitas
group, and I'm also working with a few others under the guidance of Pontifex
Graecus and Pontifex Maximus Julianus to restore the Isis/Serapis cult, I
guess I'm obligated to make a translation. Besides, under one system of
reckoning, the Birthday of Isis will be July 17 and the Egyptian New Year
will be July 19. So, here's my first shot at a translation. I ask my
colleagues on the Latinitas and NovaRoma-Isis lists to please correct me
where I'm wrong.
First, Osiris was still recognized during Roman times alongside Serapis.
See Budge's entry under "Serapis" in "The Gods of the Egyptians" for an old
but decent description of Serapis or see the Serapis links at
http://www.egroups.com/links/novaroma-isis/
Isis and Osiris were Greek names for the Egyptian gods (often depicted
as Aset and Ausar in modern English), and the Romans imported the names from
Greek into Latin. Some Roman authors used a quasi-Greek declension for the
names of the gods, others used a more Roman declension (the 3rd declension).
For more info on the declensions see the following:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=1999.02.0053&query=id%3D%2349
96
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/lexindex?lookup=Isis&db=ls&lang=la&doc=
Perseus:text:1999.02.0053&formentry=0
For actual examples in use, see also Cicero's "De Natura Deorum" Book 3,
Apuleius' "Golden Ass" Book 11, Tibullus' Poems 1.3 & 1.7, Ovid's
"Metamorphosis," and Griffiths' commentary on Plutarch's "De Iside et
Osiride."
Cicero really prefers the Greek forms, most of the other authors use
mainly the more Latin forms.
The following acceptable extant forms of 'Isis' and 'Osiris' are as
follows (the ones at the left are more Latin forms, and the ones towards the
right are more Hellenized forms). There are other acceptable forms, but
here are the main ones:

Voc: Isis/Isi
Nom: Isis
Acc: Isidem/Isim/Isin
Gen: Isidis/Isis
Dat: Isidi/Isi
Abl: Iside/Isi

Voc: Osiris/Osiri
Nom: Osiris
Acc: Osiridem/Osirim/Osirin
Gen: Osiridis/Osiris
Dat: Osiridi/Osiri
Abl: Osiride/Osiri

I believe both Geb and Nut are taken as standard 3rd declension nouns. Ok.
In the translation, in some places I was very literal, in other places maybe
not literal enough. I used 'multinominis' for 'rich in names' (cf.
Griffiths' note on "De Iside et Osiride" pp.504 and Apuleius'
"Metamorphosis" 11.23). I also took the last line as being a final vocative
tag. But, if it is understood to be in apposition to the line above it, it
would be "Dominam Isidem." I've understood this to be one of the waking
prayers that a supplicant addresses directly to the goddess statue in the
morning -- which is prevalent in the Isis/Serapis cult -- I can give
references if anyone is interested...

PRECATIO SUSCITANTIS

Expergisci, expergisci, expergisci,
Expergisci in pace,
Domina pacis,
Surge in pace,
Surge in pulchritudine,
O Dea vitae,
Speciosa in caelo,
Caelum in pace est,
Terra in pace est,
O Dea,
O Filia Nutis,
O Filia Gebis,
Cara Osiridi,
O Dea multinominis!
Omnis laus tibi,
Omnis laus tibi,
Te veneror,
Te veneror,
O Domina Isi!




----- Original Message -----
From: C Marius Merullus <c_marius_m@-------->
To: <latinitas@-------->
Cc: <Lykaion1@-------->
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 3:09 PM
Subject: [Latinitas] Fw: Latin Translation Needed


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lykaion1@-------- <Lykaion1@-------->
> To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
> Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 9:42 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Latin Translation Needed
>
>
> >Salvete,
> >
> > Is there anyone fluent in Latin who could translate this prayer into
> Latin
> >for me? I know that Isis in Latin is Isidis, and that Serapis had
replaced
> >Osiris as the name of her consort. I don't know what the Romans called
Nut
> >and Geb though.
> >
> >Prayer Of Awakening
> >
> >Awake, awake, awake
> >Awake in peace,
> >Lady of peace,
> >Rise thou in peace,
> >Rise thou in beauty,
> >Goddess of life,
> >Beautiful in heaven,
> >Heaven is in peace,
> >Earth is in peace,
> >O Goddess,
> >Daughter of Nut,
> >Daughter of Geb,
> >Beloved of Osiris,
> >Goddess rich in names!
> >All praise to You,
> >All praise to You,
> >I adore You
> >I adore You
> >Lady Isis!
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >Military.com's Personnel Locator.
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> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> (To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> __________________________________
> VIVAT LATINITAS! VIVAT NOVA ROMA!
> __________________________________
>
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	"C Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:44:38 -0400

Salvete Luci Corneli et alii

In general, what you say is absolutely true: citizens have to resign
themselves.

But underage applicants to citizenship, who are not full citizens but
underage gens-dependents, are the full responsibility of the
pater/materfamilias -- this is stated in the constitution.

Therefore, Formosanus' post carries the full weight of a resignation on the
part of Apollonius Flaccus.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus

-----Original Message-----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Thursday, July 13, 2000 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy


>Actually he hasnt resigned. I do not accept resignation notices unless
they
>come from the citizen in question. It would be like me saying to the
>Censors that Q.Fabius Maximus resigns his citizenship. Sorry, something
>that important must come from the citizen in question, no one else.
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>Censor



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Subject:	[novaroma] re: On the resignation of my son and democracy
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:34:51 -0000

I don't want to comment on this matter a great deal. I just want to
say that it seems to me that if it continues it will degenerate into
petty namecalling. I have seen this argument championed on both
sides by eminent politicians, active citizens, and people who were
just looking at the site. There is no need to continue. Unless
there are parts of the argument I have not seen, the problem is now
over and dealt with. Therefore can we please drop the matter now?

Marcus Scribonius Curio.


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Subject:	[novaroma] Market Days
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:43:52 -0000

This is just a suggestion, and possibly a plea for help. I live in
Provincia Britannia, meaning we're several hours ahead of you people
on the other side of the lake. The market day timing is American
time, meaning if I want to go to a market day, I have to wait till 2
or 3 in the morning. Anyone got any ideas?

Thanks a lot,
Marcus Scribonius Curio.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	"C Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:47:26 -0400

Salvete Luci Sergi et alii

You make some good points (particularly about working together as partners
rather than trying to dominate each other with non-existent powers), but I
have come to the conclusion that we are better off doing more and analyzing
less. I take it that you as a psychologist will disagree, which is fine
with me.

Ah, but I can't let the "disease of leadership" go :). I really have to
salute you for introducing such a wonderful coinage -- did you make it up?
Leadership is essential in all endeavors that require or involve more than
one person. The challenge is not whether to do without leaders, this is as
much a waste of time as trying to do away with the wheel. The challenge is
to be open and flexible to new ideas and encourage initiative. Call it some
Greek word like "democracy" if you want, but you have to have it or you're
dead in the water.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus
Senator
triumvir condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis

-----Original Message-----
From: Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Friday, July 14, 2000 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy



>
>In working at resurrecting the Roman Republic, we need to bear in mind
>that there is no real imperium here -- none of us commands legions under
>arms, or even one lousy praetorian cohort. Imperium in Roma Antiqua had
>its roots in raw power -- "force majeur." Any imperium that is held in
>Nova Roma depends upon a mutually agreed sharing of goals and of love of
>things Roman. A whole lot of nasty conflict here could be avoided if we
>avoid trying to *command* and "coerce* one another and instead learn to
>work as partners with one another. (And in doing so, we just might help
>save our species from the disease of leadership, which is more of a
>threat to our continued existence than is HIV.)
>



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Market Days
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:27:04 EDT

I think since NR is a Micronation spanning the Globe we should not throw our
brothers and sisters across the seas to fend for themselves, The use of our
Time in the US is not a fair gig...

I suggest that we establish an Offical NR time that is used (perhaps GMT or
someother established standard)




>From: marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] Market Days
>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:43:52 -0000
>
>This is just a suggestion, and possibly a plea for help. I live in
>Provincia Britannia, meaning we're several hours ahead of you people
>on the other side of the lake. The market day timing is American
>time, meaning if I want to go to a market day, I have to wait till 2
>or 3 in the morning. Anyone got any ideas?
>
>Thanks a lot,
>Marcus Scribonius Curio.
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Market Days
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:53:22 US/Central

Salve

> I suggest that we establish an Offical NR time that is used (perhaps GMT or
> someother established standard)

This has already been done. Rome time is official Nova Roman time.

Vale,
T Labienus Fortunatus



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Military Step
From:	DTibbe2926@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:56:06 EDT

Salvete omnes

<< Next question, O military historians and re-enactors: wasn't there an award
made to a soldier who saved a comrade's life on the battlefield? I think it
was a corona of grass, but I can't remember where I read that. Can anyone
confirm (preferably with source(s))? >>

THE book on Roman military awards is 'THE MILITARY DECORATIONS OF THE ROMAN
ARMY' by Valerie A. Maxfield (met her in '94 at the annual Caerleon lecture
and she kindly signed my copy). ISBN is 0 7134 2718 3 and was published by
Batsford in 1981.

As to the specific award mentioned it was the Corona Civica that was awarded
for saving a Roman citizen's life and then holding the ground where this had
occured for the rest of the day. It was the second highest award that could
be given. For primary sources see Pliny 'Natural History' 16.12-13 and Aulus
Gellius 'Noctes Atticae' 5.6.13-14

Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus
veteranus
Legio VIII Augusta MGV

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Market Days
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:37:58 -0700

The Lex Cornelia Centuriata establishes Nova Roma time with Roman Time. :)
Please check the Tabularium. :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: Aurelius Tiberius <kminer_rsg@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Market Days


> I think since NR is a Micronation spanning the Globe we should not throw
our
> brothers and sisters across the seas to fend for themselves, The use of
our
> Time in the US is not a fair gig...
>
> I suggest that we establish an Offical NR time that is used (perhaps GMT
or
> someother established standard)
>
>
>
>
> >From: marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
> >Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> >To: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: [novaroma] Market Days
> >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:43:52 -0000
> >
> >This is just a suggestion, and possibly a plea for help. I live in
> >Provincia Britannia, meaning we're several hours ahead of you people
> >on the other side of the lake. The market day timing is American
> >time, meaning if I want to go to a market day, I have to wait till 2
> >or 3 in the morning. Anyone got any ideas?
> >
> >Thanks a lot,
> >Marcus Scribonius Curio.
> >
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Market Days
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:11:43 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, marcusaemiliusscaurus@h... wrote:
> This is just a suggestion, and possibly a plea for help. I live in
> Provincia Britannia, meaning we're several hours ahead of you
people
> on the other side of the lake. The market day timing is American
> time, meaning if I want to go to a market day, I have to wait till
2
> or 3 in the morning. Anyone got any ideas?
>
> Thanks a lot,
> Marcus Scribonius Curio.

Salvete Quirites

As I have posted here in the past, every weekday, Regulus in Italy
and I in the states, meet in the forum about 13.00 - 15.00 GMT.
(Even while he has been on vacation I have been visiting the forum
regulary.) This is not the best or most convenient time perhaps, his
early afternoon and my late morning, but we have been doing it
regularly and inviting others to join us in order to have some
connection across the pond. Thus far we have had a few visitors from
both seashores stop in, and I would encourage you all to do likewise
if at all possible.

Meanwhile, there are a number of us in the states who get together
most every night in the forum, sometimes joined by our Argentine
friends, around 3:00AM your time as you say. But the Californians do
not arrive until three hours later. That would be around sunrise for
you. If there is a better time for us to meet in the forum let me
know. I would like to arrange something.

Meanwhile, I have noticed, through my scribal duties, that there are
a number of citizens in Australia. I would like to hear from them
about a convenient time to meet with us Americans (North and South)
and with our fellow citizens in Europe. It may seem like a strange
idea but we are a global community, let's find a good time when we
all may meet on a regular basis.

Valete omnes.
Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Scriba Censorius


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