Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:51:13 EDT

In a message dated 7/16/00 6:52:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gens_moravia@-------- writes:

<< If the Res Publica were not a democracy, it would be a Res Privata. Do
please try to perceive the difference between representative democracies
(like Britain, Roma Veta, the USA), and participative democracies (e.g.,
Athens, Switzerland).>>

I'll remember that the next time you attempt to thwart the workings of the
Republic in favor of some "participatory democracy", which you did when you
and your friends tried to get an excellent edict overturned, in the name of
"democracy".

<<Otherwise I, a 'democrat', must regard you, a 'republican', as some kind of
fascist. ;-) >>


Festus: Well, given history's example, Fascists and Nazi's got to power via
democracy. So, I think you should be concered about democracies, I on the
other hand prefer the checks and balances that are inherant in a Republic.
The Republic spoken about in Polybius! With checks and balances that blend
the three primary systems of government. Monarchy, Oligarhical rule, and
Mob rule. So, now, who should be labeled the fascist now?

Gaius Lupinius Festus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate news
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:51:16 EDT

In a message dated 7/16/00 6:52:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gens_moravia@-------- writes:

<< The law effectively victimised M. Aurelianus who, up till that time, had
offended against no law. A law was introduced which, ipso facto, forced upon
Aurelianus the highly painful and distasteful necessity of choosing between
personal honesty with loss of citizenship, or personal dishonesty and
continued citizenship. >>
and
<<A wrong, a moral iniuria suffered by a fellow-citizen, concerns me as a
fellow-ctizen as well as as a magistrate. I do not delegate my humanitas to
a civil servant. >>

It would be so good of you, Vado, to get your facts straight before typing
such nonsense. The law did not victimize a "fellow citizen" because Maria
was NOT a citizen!
The edict did not "force upon Aurelianus the highly painful and distasteful
necessity of choosing between personal honesty with loss of citizenship, or
personal dishonesty and
continued citizenship" because she had already resigned before the original
edict was even issued!

For the benefit of new citizens who were not around when this issue came up,
allow me to educate you so Vado's outright lies do not blind you. Maria
Villarroel, aka Marius Fimbria, aka Marius Aurelianus, resigned her
citizenship approximately one month before Censor Sulla issued the original
'gender edict'.

Look not to Brittania for the truth.

Gaius Lupinius Festus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:51:09 EDT

In a message dated 7/16/00 6:52:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gens_moravia@-------- writes:

Festus:
> > Nova Roma is, after all, a republic, and not a democracy, thank
> the
> > gods, er, I mean thank Germanicus. And yes, there is a difference
between
> > the two.

Vado: <<Between the gods and Germanicus, I assume you mean?>>

LOL, Boy one of us sure is bright...but, for the sake of insulting you, I
wont say who it is!

Gaius Lupinius Festus



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Subject:	[novaroma] List Files: Pictures
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:02:00 EDT

Salvete,

I just uploaded a picture of Maria Lupinia Iosephina to the lists
graphics file library. When I tried to view it with my Compuserve browswer,
the clarity and focus were awful.
I tried again with Netscape and Microsoft Explorer, and it was much better.
Is there a reason for this? Should I have the picture re-scanned?

Gaius Lupinius Festus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] List Files: Pictures
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:03:26 -0700

Its compuserve...lol...

Sorry...

an EarthLink Joke...hehe :)

SF
----- Original Message -----
From: <Lykaion1@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 7:02 PM
Subject: [novaroma] List Files: Pictures


> Salvete,
>
> I just uploaded a picture of Maria Lupinia Iosephina to the lists
> graphics file library. When I tried to view it with my Compuserve
browswer,
> the clarity and focus were awful.
> I tried again with Netscape and Microsoft Explorer, and it was much
better.
> Is there a reason for this? Should I have the picture re-scanned?
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wish you had something rad to add to your email?
> We do at www.supersig.com.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6810/8/_/61050/_/963799329/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] In re M. Aurelianus: The Curatrix Sermonem speaks.
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:13:36 -0000

Patricia Cassia omnibus SPD:

May I suggest that we NOT indulge in a heated rehashing of the issues
regarding the Gender Edict and the Aurelianus formerly known as
Fimbria? Feelings obviously still run high on this issue (and even I
have my opinion - but since it is not part of my role as Curatrix
Sermonem, I will not express it here). I do not think any useful
purpose will be served by a renewed venting of those feelings.

If you have no information to add to the discussion, you will do your
dignitas no favors by expressing anger or needling others here, and
you
will make this list a less pleasant place for all, including new and
prospective Citizens.

If you wish action to be taken on this issue, the place to suggest
such
action is in a message to your Senate or Consuls. On this list, I
might
welcome a discussion in which prospective courses of action are
proposed and their merits considered.

For the record, no one is persecuting Aurelianus/Fimbria. Rather, the
Senate received complaints about activity in the chat room, took them
seriously, and realized that our current chat system is inadequate
for
providing the information we need to make decisions regarding it.
(Specifically, we cannot judge behavior we did not witness, and our
chat system provides no way of logging or otherwise recording
participation electronically. Thus, the only way we know what has
happened is through hearsay, which I consider inadequate for making
important decisions.)

This discussion, which will likely bear fruit shortly in the form of
a
new Forum, was a useful one which will, I hope, lead to more and
better
chat for Nova Roma.

As part of this process, we may be recruiting chat-room moderators
who
volunteer to be there at specific times and to guide the
conversation.
If you are a Citizen who enjoys chat and has the maturity to talk out
a
problem or gently but firmly change a subject, please consider
volunteering for such a position.

Patricia Cassia

P.S. for newcomers: Curator Sermonem means "curator of speech," and
is
the title given in Nova Roma to the moderator of this list.
"Curatrix"
is the feminine term. My role is not to restrict opinions, but to
deflect conversations which threaten this list's effectiveness as a
place to ask questions and get to know other Nova Romans.



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: From the Senior Consul
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:03:48 -0400

Salvete Nicolaue Moravi et alii

The vocative of Curio is Curio, by the way. I suspect that the vocative
that I use for your praenomen is an unjustifiable innovation, but I can't
bear to part with it. Oh well.


:
:> So, the "we" of Nova Roma is the Cives plus the Senate.
:
:Aargh! This is like saying: 'the fruit bowl has apples in it, and fruit'.
:The Senate is comprised of cives. Everyone in the political structure of
:Nova Roma is a civis. This is what makes it truly a res publica: a 'common
:thing', and a democracy, a 'rulership by the people'. Don't confuse
:rulership with the delegated executive power to make laws.

I have to agree with Cornelia. Consider that odd phrase Senatus Populusque
Romanus The Senate and the people together, so together that they are one
Roman thing. That is what we seek to be, one Res Publica guided by the
Senate and the People. And executive power to make the real laws, the
leges, is not delegated anywhere -- it stays in the hands of the people.
How to handle finances and foreign affairs is the business of the Senate, as
is advising the people, through Senatus Consulta, on internal policies. And
the magistrates
are elected to keep the whole thing running on course.

Of course, the senatores are cives, and in a mathematical sense, the Senate
is a subset of the People. But there's more to it than that.

In an earlier post, I spoke of non-existent powers. I believe that the
nature and context of Nova Roma really do preclude any coercive power, but
the Senate, does, I believe have power, as do the People and their elected
magistrates. I would say that we all have a variety of real powers to use
in re-building Roma; but none of these powers can achieve coercion, and
attempts to achieve it are a terrible waste of time and energy.

Valete

C Marius Merullus
:
:Vale bene,
:
:Vado.
:
:
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: In re M. Aurelianus: The Curatrix Sermonem speaks.
From:	"Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:56:48 -0000

May I suggest that the ongoing discussion is not soley, nor is it any
longer specifically, about the infamous "Gender Edict". The ongoing
discussion does touch on Nova Roma as it is, as its citizens perceive
it and as citizens, present and future, will find it. This mailing
list is another Forum for the People of Nova Roma. Let the People
continue to speak on what they think is important. This in ont going
on about Kosovo, macronational politics or such, this is about Nova
Roma.

On the chat room, the Forum Romanum as it has been named since Nova
Roma was begun. I have many criticisms about the Onelist set up, the
constant refreshing is one. But I have no problem with there being
no
on going record of what is said in there. At times I have thought
that such a record of everything said in tthe chatroom Forum would be
useful in tracking down those who have attacked Nova Roma there, the
trash mouths who came in at times and just took it over -- many
examples. But I now see such a record as possibly being used more
like recordings of conversations made of people on the street. It is
a curtailment of free speech. There is the feature of the current
chat room that people can lurk there unbeknownst to anyone. I have
been attacked, while in the course of a mundanely esoteric historical
discussion, by someone who had been lurking for the sake of spying.
That curtailed my freedom of speech for some time because I knew that
there might be some magistrate "spying" on the people in the Forum.
I
know that there are some people who are very serious about saving
copies of everything that is said while they are in the chatroom. I
find this to be a violation of common ettiquette. I also feel it is
akin to taping conversations with people. It might not be illegal to
have a tape recorder on in your pocket while talking in the civic
center. It is a public place. Maybe it is illegal. What matters is
that it is a blasted tacky thing to do and says, to me, that the
person does not trust me, and I certainly should not trust them.

Yes. I know there are many who do not give a fig about what I think,
or what I see as being within or without the bounds of ettiquette, or
what I hold to be rights. I expect to read comments to that effect,
so far as anyone will bother to comment on my words.

Bene valete, Quirites.

C. Aelius Ericius



--- In novaroma@--------, "pjane@j... " <pjane@j...> wrote:
> Patricia Cassia omnibus SPD:
>
> May I suggest that we NOT indulge in a heated rehashing of the
issues
> regarding the Gender Edict and the Aurelianus formerly known as
> Fimbria? Feelings obviously still run high on this issue (and even
I
> have my opinion - but since it is not part of my role as Curatrix
> Sermonem, I will not express it here). I do not think any useful
> purpose will be served by a renewed venting of those feelings.
>
> If you have no information to add to the discussion, you will do
your
> dignitas no favors by expressing anger or needling others here, and
> you
> will make this list a less pleasant place for all, including new
and
> prospective Citizens.
>
> If you wish action to be taken on this issue, the place to suggest
> such
> action is in a message to your Senate or Consuls. On this list, I
> might
> welcome a discussion in which prospective courses of action are
> proposed and their merits considered.
>
> For the record, no one is persecuting Aurelianus/Fimbria. Rather,
the
> Senate received complaints about activity in the chat room, took
them
> seriously, and realized that our current chat system is inadequate
> for
> providing the information we need to make decisions regarding it.
> (Specifically, we cannot judge behavior we did not witness, and our
> chat system provides no way of logging or otherwise recording
> participation electronically. Thus, the only way we know what has
> happened is through hearsay, which I consider inadequate for making
> important decisions.)
>
> This discussion, which will likely bear fruit shortly in the form of
> a
> new Forum, was a useful one which will, I hope, lead to more and
> better
> chat for Nova Roma.
>
> As part of this process, we may be recruiting chat-room moderators
> who
> volunteer to be there at specific times and to guide the
> conversation.
> If you are a Citizen who enjoys chat and has the maturity to talk
out
> a
> problem or gently but firmly change a subject, please consider
> volunteering for such a position.
>
> Patricia Cassia
>
> P.S. for newcomers: Curator Sermonem means "curator of speech," and
> is
> the title given in Nova Roma to the moderator of this list.
> "Curatrix"
> is the feminine term. My role is not to restrict opinions, but to
> deflect conversations which threaten this list's effectiveness as a
> place to ask questions and get to know other Nova Romans.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Cognomen
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:23:58 -0500

T Labienus M Apollonio S P D

> Our "Comitia Centuriata" is named after them and to this day

Surely you meant the Comitia Curiata? It's my understanding that the
Comitia Centuriata are named after the centuries.

Vale



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] On the Resignation of My Son & Democracy
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:47:00 -0500

T Labienus C Lupino S P D

> Festus: Well, given history's example, Fascists and Nazi's got to
> power via
> democracy.

Would you be willing to clear up my confusion concerning your use of the
words democracy and republic? A republic is, in the modern sense, a
form of democracy. The whole people elect a group of representatives
who then enact the laws of the state. Therefore, a republic is a form
of democracy, as Vado says.

Now, there is an older definition of a republic, which is more commonly
called an aristocracy today. In this form of government, an elite,
usually hereditary, minority elects the officers of the state. This is
not the case in Nova Roma.

So I am forced to conclude that you are referring to some third
definition of a republic, or to some second definition of democracy, or
both. Please enlighten me.

Vale



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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman Fiction, Chapter 4
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:00:32 EDT

THE INQUIRY

Chapter IV: The House of Sulla

Gaius Lupinius Festus arrived at Cassius' rented house shortly after
sunset, with three horses he had rented for the evening. Cassius and Draco
were waiting outside when he arrived. When he saw the horses, Cassius looked
surprised. "What is all this?", he asked, bewildered. "The latest
development in transportation, Cassius. They're called horses!", replied
Draco. "Thank you so much," said Cassius sarcastically. "I think I could
have figured that out for myself if you had just given me a couple of
moments. What I mean is, what are they for? How far away is this place that
we're going?" "Not far," said Gaius. "Just outside the city." "Well
then," said Cassius as he mounted, "maybe you wouldn't mind telling us where
we're heading?" Gaius grinned. "To Sulla's!"
Cassius' mouth dropped open. "Sulla? Here? In Caesarea?"
"The last I'd heard of Sulla was that he was in Pompeii," said Draco. "He
was running a brothel! What's he doing here?"
"Same thing," Gaius answered. "He has a tavern and brothel here, one in
Sidon, and one more on Cypress."
Cassius stopped his mount. "Now wait a moment," he protested, "I'm a Roman
senator. Now Draco may be a party boy like his friend Nero, and you may be a
born again barbarian, but I have to maintain some dignity!"
"No, no, no!", Gaius insistied, "we're not going to the tavern. We're going
to his home! One night each month Sulla throws the biggest party in
Caesarea. Just relax, will you? You do not have to do anything to
compromise your dignitas, ol' boy." Cassius thought about this a moment.
"Well, I guess we could see Sulla again. Has he changed much?"
"You will have to see for yourself", Gaius answered. "Alright then", agreed
Cassius, "but still, why the expense for these horses? Are we really in that
much of a hurry to get there?"
Gaius turned his head to look at him. "The horses aren't to get us there
quickly. They are to get us OUT quickly, if we need to." Draco and Cassius
looked at each other. "Gaius is just playing games with you, I'm sure,"
Draco said reassuringly.

The House of Sulla was a villa next to the beach, just a short distance
from the city. As they arrived, a porter emerged from the main gate to take
their horses. "A pleasure to see you again Master Lykaion!", he said as they
dismounted. The porter took charge of the horses. "I'll have them in the
usual spot for you sir", he said. "Splendid", said Gaius, slapping the
porter on the shoulder. "These other two men are with me." The porter
nodded. "I am sure friends of Lykaion are friends of Master Sulla. Looks
like it is to be quite an evening, sir! There is already quite a large
company inside." Gaius gave the porter a coin, and the three of them passed
into the outer courtyard. There were gardens and paths running the full
circuit of the house, and two naked Venuses flanked the door. Even outside,
they could hear from within the sounds of music and laughter. As they made
their way to the main door of the house, they were met by a very tall and
muscular woman with long curley black hair. It was Iris, one of Sulla's mud
wrestlers, and a formidable bouncer when her services were needed. She did
not smile. She nodded to Gaius and looked at his two companions. "They with
you?", she asked, expessionless. Gaius nodded, and the Amazon walked over
Cassius and Draco, and stared at them. "Welcome to the House of Sulla", she
said, with no emotion. "As you are with Lykaion, you shall be admitted.
Proper behavior will be expected of you. No chastity, no morality, no
non-intoxicating beverages of any kind will be tolerated, save for water in
the event you get sick and throw up, or pass out unconscious." Her eyes
narrowed into slits. "You both look like perverts, so you should feel at
home. Now you will follow me."
Cassius was indignant. "Why, that impertinent, insulting..." Gaius jerked
his head towards him and signalled to drop it. "It is her job," he
whispered. "Don't take her seriously." Iris led them to the large banquet
room, and there, they stopped. The mouths of Cassius and Draco dropped open
in astonishment. There were so far about one hundred guests, many reclining
on couches feasting on the succulent dinner prepared by Sulla's kitchen
staff. In the center of the room, scantily clad dancing girls girated to the
musicians sounds. The room was darkend, illuminated only by small lamps on
tables and a few from the ceiling. "Let's get a table!", Gaius shouted over
the music. The room they were in was flanked on three sides by several
smaller rooms, separated by screens of stringed beads. Through these,
Cassius and Draco could see couples, threesomes, foursomes, and moresomes,
engaging in all manner of debauchery, mighty copulations. "Gods!", Draco
cried gleefully, "Did you see that?!?!" Cassius looked on with horror at
the goings on. "This is so disgusting! Perverse!"
"This is great!", replied Draco.
Gaius said nothing, but led them to a small table in a corner. He sat down,
with his back to the wall, surveying the scene about him, nodding his head
with satisfaction. Draco and Cassius were both sitting themselves down, when
one of the dancing girls, a well endowed nymph, ran over to the table.
"Excuse me sir, "she said to Cassius, "but you need a facial." And with
that, the girl put one hand behind his head and thrust his face into her
ample, vesuvian bosm, and shook. "Welcome to Sulla's!", she screamed. Gaius
tossed her coin. "Thanks love. Better let him out of there before he
suffocates!". The girl laughed and ran back to her dance. Cassius was pale.
"My gods, I almost died in there!"
"Yes, but what a death!", laughed Gaius in reply. Cassius was not amused.
"You had something to do with that, didn't you!", he accused. He got no
answer, and looked about the room. A man dressed as Dionysius was playfully
chasing one of the effeminate 'pretty boys' around the room. Some revellers,
sweaty and worn out, emerged naked from the side rooms to take some
refreshment before plunging headlong into another bout. And coming into the
room from a staircase on one side was what appeared to be a very large woman,
drapped in silkin gowns. Her face was covered in white makeup and her lips
painted a dark crimson red. Her hair was raven black and braided, and she
walked, or wobbled, with an exagerated effeminacy. This woman was, in a
word, grotesque, and yet everyone seemed deferential and respectful to her.
"Eeeewwwwww!", said Draco, beholding the sight. "Is that a man or a woman?"
"Eeeewwwwww!", said Cassius, beholding as well. "Is that a human or an
animal?"
"Ooooohhhhh!", squealed the woman, man, or whatever it was, seeing them in
the corner and starting to run over to their table. Cassius cried in terror.
"It's seen us! Oh my god, it's coming right at us!"
Gaius Lupinius Festus was laughing hysterically now. "Cassius my friend,
that is neither human nor animal. It's Sulla!"

Sulla was jumping up and down with glee, clapping his hands. "Cassius!
Draco! Gaius! It is sooo wonderful to see you all here!!!" He plopped his
ponderous backside onto the lap of the terrified Cassius. "I could just
kiss all of you!"
"Don't you dare!", cried Cassius. Sulla looked dejected. "Oh Cassius, you
are just like Gaius. So heterosexual!" He called for wine, and clapped his
hands three times. Immediately, a steward brought them a skin of wine, and
two barely clothed females appeared, each choosing one of Sulla's guests at
the table. The Egyptian girl sat on Cassius lap and began nibbling on his
ear, while Cassius tried to shoo her off. Draco had the Syrian maiden.
"None for you Gaius!", giggled Sulla. "You have to find your own! You know
them all anyway." Cassius was panicking now. "Sulla, will you please get
this waif off of me?" The girl looked insulted. "Whatsa matter? Ain't you
got one?", she asked with derision. Sulla jerked his head towards the center
of the room, and the girl left. Cassius rose. "That's it. I am not
staying here any longer!" Sulla jumped up. "Oh dahling, you cannot possibly
leave! We have sooo much to talk about!"
"You'll have to forgive Cassius", said Draco. "He is newly married."
"Oh! How wonderful!", Sulla giggled, clapping his hands again. "To whom?"
"He married Patricia, about four months ago", Draco explained, "and his life
is now over".
Sulla gasped. "Oh, Patricia! You lucky boy! Such a tasty, delictable
morsel!", Sulla said, poking poor Cassius in the ribs. Sulla continued.
"Patricia has always had such exquisite taste in clothing. I have always
wanted to dress just like her!" "I have to go", Cassius protested, "while I
have some dignity left!"
Gaius sneered. "What dignity? You're a politician! You abandoned all
dignity when you entered the senate!"
"Now that was not called for!", yelled Cassius, stung by this barb.
Draco intervened. "Gaius, stop it. Cassius, please don't go. Just stay and
try to have some fun!"
"Draco, I'm a stoic!", exclaimed Cassius, "We don't have fun!"
"Oh, poor Patricia!!!", sniffed Sulla.
"Damn it Sulla, you know what I mean!", Cassius shot back.
Draco stood up and spoke softly and calmly. "You still haven't been able to
discuss your legal case with Gaius. Look, no one is asking you to betray
your marriage vow. Just relax and be sociable, alright!" Cassius closed
his eyes and regained his composure. "Alright", he said, "I'll stay. But I
won't betray my wife!"
"That's fine", said Sulla. "You just sit here and enjoy the wine and the
music, and we'll betray your wife!"
Gaius screwed up his face and spit onto the floor. "Gads.....this wine
tastes like donkey piss!" Sulla was taken aback aback. "I'll have you know
I paid four drachma for that wine!"
"Why?" Gaius asked. "Where is the good stuff?" Sulla rolled his eyes. "Oh,
I suppose if you must. Go to the back of the kitchen area and you'll find
your Italian favorite there. But please do not tell anyone! If anyone knows
I let you have some, then I have to let everyone have it!" "Be right back!",
said Gaius, leaving the table.
A gong sounded, announcing the arrival of a new girl at the party. All
heads turned toward the entrance. At the sight of her, some of the men who
knew her backed away carefully. Cassius and Draco both wondered why. She
was dressed all in black, with a veil over the lower half of her face. Her
hair was also pitch black, and around her forehead was a gold colored band,
bearing the image of a serpent. Her arms bore several ornaments, and her
exquisitely sculptd body could just be discerned beneath her gowns, which
clung it, giving a hint of her graceful form. Sulla giggled in delight.
"Ah....she came! She has never come to my tavern or to my parties, but I
persuaded her tonight."
"Who is she?", whistled Draco, in admiration. A steward introduced her to
the assembled guests. "Friends! We are delighted to present tonight, for
your pleasure, The Mistress of the Forbidden Pleasures! She will be
rendering her special services for you tonight, by appointment only, on a
first come, first served basis!" The Mistress of the Forbidden Pleasures
surveyed the room, her face showing no expression. Draco rose from the
table. "Gentlemen, you must excuse me, while I make the aquaintance of this
Goddess!" He thrust aside the Syrian girl and left. "That was my
customer!", the Syrian girl cried! "Oh, don't fret!" chided Sulla. "Go find
yourself a drunken sailer or something." "It's not fair! He was MY
customer!", she whined as she walked dejectedly away.
Draco approached the mysterious woman, who watched him, but made no
effort to acknowledge him. "It is a beautful night, my lady", Draco said
with a slight bow. The eyes of the mysterious lady flared, as she produced a
whip from her gown. "I did not give you permission to speak!" she hissed,
cracking the whip on Draco, who screamed in pain. "Goddamn! You little..."
The lady's eyes flared again. "How dare you address me in that tone of
voice!", she screamed, giving Draco a sharp kick in the shin. She raised the
whip again, and Draco fled in terror back to the table, as if Cassius would
be able to defend him. Cassius had watched the spectacle with wide open
eyes. "Who's that?!?", he asked Sulla. "Who's that? WHAT'S THAT?!?!",
Draco cried, nursing his shin. "Oh", Sulla laughed, "that is Aeternia
Draconia! She's a dominatrix you know". "Yeah, I think I just discovered
that!", said the annoyed Draco, "Thanks for the heads-up Sulla." Aeternia
the dominatrix passed by the table, growling like a tigress as she stared
directly at Draco. "Sulla, you keep that...thing away from me!" Sulla
shooed the vixen away. "This is not your customer, Aeternia. Now, be a good
girl and go to your chamber. When your, uh...clients arrive, I shall send
them to do directly!" Aeternia growled again, glared at Draco, and walked
away from them. Gaius Lupinius was returning with his wine. Aeternia saw
him, and approached him. Cassius observed this, and a chill ran through him,
"Sulla", he said, "stop her! She'll kill him!" But before the words were
out of his mouth, she smiled. "Gaius!", she squealed, hugging him. "Tink!",
he replied, putting an arm around her shoulder and leading over to the wall,
out of the way of the revellers. "How are you Tink?", he asked
affectionately. "Look!", she said, as she pulled from her gown a scap of
paper with some writing on it. Gaius looked at the paper. It was Aeternia's
name, written in her own hand, along with some simple sentences. "You wrote
this!", he asked with pretended surprise. She nodded, unable to wipe the
smile from her face. "Julia Isidora, that priestess of Isis you introduced
to us, she's teaching me! And she's going to teach us to read too!"
Aeternia Draconia had grown up on the tough streets of Corinth, where she
learned at an early age to hit, kick, and scratch and scream in such a way as
to induce fear in others. It was her way of protecting herself from the
assorted dregs and scum that populated that wild and notorius city. It was
not long that she discovered that there were men, and some women, who would
pay money to be abused in that manner. And so it was that Aeternia, at
eighteen, was a dominatrix, with a small but well paying clientele. She
shared a room with another young prostitute, Lauria Crispa, seventeen,
another abandoned and neglected girl of the streets. "Where's Lauria?",
Gaius asked.
"She's here, somewhere", replied Aeternia, looking around the room. "I'm
worried about her,Gaius."
"Why? What happened?"
Aeternia looked around to make sure no one could hear. "She hasn't been
well", she whispered. "She drinks way too much, and it makes her vulnerable,
know what I mean?" Gaius looked down and shook his head. "And she's been
hit."
Gaius looked up, shocked. "Hit? By whom?"
Aeternia hesitated a moment. "Sporus", she whispered. "He hit her
yesterday."
"Sporus!", Gaius said angrily. He spit. "That little abortion....Has he
abused you?"
"No Gaius. He hasn't met me yet. And besides, I would whip his ass!"
Gaius laughed. "Yes, I bet you would! You would whip MY ass!"
"If you're bad", Aeternia said with a sly grin. "Have you been bad?"
Gaius had an idea, and the more he thought about it, the funnier it seemed.
"I may be", he said. "Tink, you say he has not met you yet?"
"No, not at all", she answered. "I have not worked Sulla's tavern, so he has
never seen me."
"Hmmmm", said Gaius, pondering. "Tink love, how would you like to avenge
Lauria on Sporus?"
"You're not going to cost me my job, are you Gaius? I mean, you're not going
to get Sulla mad at me so I can't work his parties, will you? I need the
income!"
Gaius reassured her. "No, no. no...you will be quite alright! Sporus will
do this to himself!" He leaned over and whispered something into Aeternia's
ear. And Aeternia threw back her head and laughed.

End of Chapter IV

Continued in V, "A Slap In The Face"














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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: In re M. Aurelianus: The Curatrix Sermonem speaks.
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:12:31 -0500

T Labienus L Equitio S P D

> Yes. I know there are many who do not give a fig about what I think,
> or what I see as being within or without the bounds of ettiquette, or
> what I hold to be rights. I expect to read comments to that effect,
> so far as anyone will bother to comment on my words.

For one, I found what you said to be perfectly reasonable and valid. I,
too, am uncomfortable with the idea of recording conversations in the
forum, and I, too, find spying and disingenuity to be tacky at best.
Mostly, though, I dearly wish that more people would endeavor to act, as
Marcus Aurelius counseled, as though a virtuous man were constantly
looking over their shoulder, watching their actions with a critical eye.

Vale



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Subject:	[novaroma] Tribute to a Roman
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 06:30:18 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Omnibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit!

I came onto this list in December of last year, and I
remember distinctly from the beginning that among the number
of most well-expressed, moderate, decent, informed, humorous
and humane posts were those of a fine long-time Roman:
Lucius Marius Aurelianus, then known as Fimbria. Such a
level of urbane discourse and sincerity in the love of
things Roman was an active incentive to me to join Nova
Roma, and despite the very long wait and repeated problems
with getting my citizenship before our industrious Sulla
overcame the backlog, the kind of truly worth-while and
pleasing posts provided by this Roman were a significant
part of what sustained my desire to suffer through the
waiting period and join.

I had championed his case with respect to the previous
Gender Edictum without ever having interchanged a personal
e-mail message, simply out of a general concern with
fairness. When I quite recently met him by accident in the
Taberna, we were both delighted, and I observed his
conversations to be agreeable and his wonderfully-funny
self-action-descriptions to be a real contribution to the
pleasantness of the atmosphere there.

I do not know what caused him to lash out in anger, but
if such a moderate and self-controlled person is stung to
make an outburst - even if unseemly and perhaps a touch
extreme - very likely the person or thing attacked to some
extent deserved it. We should all take note of the wrath of
the righteous and try to learn something from it.

I might note in passing, that if anyone has not yet gone
to his site "Ab Urbe Condita" on the NR Webring and read the
contents of that front page, he or she should do so. It is
a *very* well written little essay that will inspire any
lover of Roma with an increased appreciation for what we all
are trying to do

I do hope that very *soon* this temporarily expatriated
Roman will be enabled to come back fully and officially to
Nova Roma, and be welcomed with a big round of acclamation.
He has many friends here, and I am proud to hope that I may
be counted as one.

Valete!

--
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Scriba Censorius
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Tribute to a Roman
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:35:59 -0700

I am sorry, but I must disagree.

A Roman should act like a Roman and not have multiple chat handles, one of
them acting as an imitation of Senator Cincinnatus.
Not to mention the wide variety of other handles that she has used.

A Roman follows the Roman Virtues at all times. Even when they feel they
have been wronged.

A Roman should act like a Roman case in point. Maria knows what she needs
to do to resolve this issue in her favor. To date she has not. But instead
disruptes the Taverna from the enjoyment of CITIZENS.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
To: "novaroma" <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 9:30 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Tribute to a Roman


> M. Apollonius Formosanus Omnibus Salutem Plurimam Dicit!
>
> I came onto this list in December of last year, and I
> remember distinctly from the beginning that among the number
> of most well-expressed, moderate, decent, informed, humorous
> and humane posts were those of a fine long-time Roman:
> Lucius Marius Aurelianus, then known as Fimbria. Such a
> level of urbane discourse and sincerity in the love of
> things Roman was an active incentive to me to join Nova
> Roma, and despite the very long wait and repeated problems
> with getting my citizenship before our industrious Sulla
> overcame the backlog, the kind of truly worth-while and
> pleasing posts provided by this Roman were a significant
> part of what sustained my desire to suffer through the
> waiting period and join.
>
> I had championed his case with respect to the previous
> Gender Edictum without ever having interchanged a personal
> e-mail message, simply out of a general concern with
> fairness. When I quite recently met him by accident in the
> Taberna, we were both delighted, and I observed his
> conversations to be agreeable and his wonderfully-funny
> self-action-descriptions to be a real contribution to the
> pleasantness of the atmosphere there.
>
> I do not know what caused him to lash out in anger, but
> if such a moderate and self-controlled person is stung to
> make an outburst - even if unseemly and perhaps a touch
> extreme - very likely the person or thing attacked to some
> extent deserved it. We should all take note of the wrath of
> the righteous and try to learn something from it.
>
> I might note in passing, that if anyone has not yet gone
> to his site "Ab Urbe Condita" on the NR Webring and read the
> contents of that front page, he or she should do so. It is
> a *very* well written little essay that will inspire any
> lover of Roma with an increased appreciation for what we all
> are trying to do
>
> I do hope that very *soon* this temporarily expatriated
> Roman will be enabled to come back fully and officially to
> Nova Roma, and be welcomed with a big round of acclamation.
> He has many friends here, and I am proud to hope that I may
> be counted as one.
>
> Valete!
>
> --
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Scriba Censorius
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> ________________________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> 1. Fill in the brief application
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6631/8/_/61050/_/963808240/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate news
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:52:35 EDT

In a message dated 7/16/2000 3:53:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
gens_moravia@-------- writes:

<< If you think that
makes sense, then I'm done talking to you on the subject. >>
Thank the gods for that!
Q. Fabius.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Quies et Otium .....the end!
From:	"Marcus Attilius Regulus " <m.morgantini@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:55:26 -0000

Marcus Attilius Reg. Caio Mario Mer. et alii salutem dicit.

I'm back in Rome from Sardinia , vacations are finish.
This country looks to me so beautifull than I can not understand why
antiques Roman prefer vacations at Cuma or Baia!
Try first Porto Rotondo or Porto Cervo!!!

About my lectures , Mario , don't worry; also in McCullogh's books
...You win but at the end.... the history doesn't change. Lucius
Cornelius will win . So my friend. That's life...

Ciao et Valete .

Marcus Attilius R.


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Subject:	[novaroma] A few artistic uploads in Graphics
From:	"Jon G" <netsurferjg3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:05:48 -0000

This is my first time uploading, so please let me know if they went
through. They are just a few images of statuary, painting, frescoes,
busts.
Thank you.


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Subject:	[novaroma] more on forums and speech
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:41:40 -0000

Ericius, you bring up an interesting point. As far as I know, Nova
Roma
has no interest in curtailing the private speech of individuals. You
are free to send e-mail privately, call Citizens on the phone or even
start your own mailing list or chat room to say whatever you like.

What we're concerned about is that the "official" forum of Nova Roma
(whatever we decide that will be) is also a public-relations tool for
the organization, in which potential Citizens are invited to learn
more
from people already participating in Nova Roma.

In the better administrations of ancient Rome, citizens were free to
say whatever they liked on the streets. But the city took care in
choosing those it sent into foreign countries to win alliances, and
into provinces to keep the locals happy. (Not enough care in many
cases, as history reveals!)

I'm not sure what the answer is. No one wants an organization in
which
others' conversations are policed. And as a representative of Nova
Roma's government, I *encourage* Citizens to bring forward their
criticism of the way we do things, because it is through this debate
that we can learn and grow. (Those criticisms will be especially
effective if expressed calmly and accompanied by constructive
suggestions or offers to help.)

In the meantime, let me assure you that my own goal in working on
this
project is to encourage participation in the chat. Disruptive
behavior
is one thing that discourages participation, and since this has
become
an issue, I think we need a way to monitor and deal with it.

One thing that WILL be in place in the new chat forum is a feature
that
lets you see who's there. Lurking anonymously will no longer be an
option.

Patricia Cassia



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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Idibus Quinctiliis (July 15th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:54:29 +0100

Salvete omnes

Sorry for being late, but it was impossible for me to post this in the due
day.

________________________________________________

This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action or public business can take place.

The Idus of every month are sacred to Iuppiter. An white ewe is
sacrificed to Iuppiter by the Flamen Dialis.

Today is a feast of cavalrymen (Transvectio Equitum). Crowned with olive
branches dressed in red, they mount white horses and go in parade from the
Porta Capena (near the temple of Mars) to the the Capitoline Hill (temple of
Iuppiter), passing by the temple of the Dioscuri Whom they honour with a
solemn sacrifice. Some of the horsemen are Sodales Luperci. This feast
celebrates the victory at the battle of Regillus in 496 BCE, in which the
Latins under Tarquinius Superbus were decisively defeated by the Romans
under Aulus Postumus Albinus. Two able, but unknown horsemen lead the roman
troops to victory, and immediately after they were seen watering their
horses at the Spring of Juturna. They were identified with the Dioscuri,
even more because the victory was announced in Rome by the Dioscuri before
even the Romans in the field had certain knowledge of their success. In
order to thank the Dioscuri, the Roman commander promised to build the
temple of the Dioscuri, which was completed in 484 BCE.

Pax deorum vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex



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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XVI Kalendas Sextilias (July 17th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:04:31 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens can vote
on political or criminal matters.

Today is the Dies Natalis of a temple dedicated to Honos (Honour) and Virtus
(Virtue).

The month of Quinctilis was renamed Iulius in 44 BCE in honour of the
deified C. Iulius Caesar. This month is sacred to Iuppiter.


Pax Deorum vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex



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Subject:	[novaroma] Honey, Please. - Ubi est mel?
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:05:15 +0200

Salvete Cives Novae Romae!

I have been heartened by the relatively profound - and
relatively rancour-free - discussions we have been having
here of late. A lot of thinkers such as Australiacus, Vado,
Merullus, Fortunatus, and Pristinus have been making highly
critical and intelligent posts about the basic structure of
authority and governance here in Nova Roma.

Some others seem to me to be woefully unrealistic. I
think the single thing that we must keep in our minds to
deal with these issues is that *we have competition*. People
can find other interests, other internet activities, other
Roman and classical sites, other religions, other things of
all sorts. If we want them to come here, become cives and
contribute, we have to offer them a product they will
adjudge better than the competition for their time and
effort.

And when someone joins Nova Roma, that person is by that
simple act conferring a boon upon us. Without a population
Nova Roma would be nothing. And every new recruit takes us
further from nothing and makes us larger, more varied, more
talented, more interesting, more powerful, more significant
in the world.

That recruit wants something in return. That might
differ from person to person, but we begin as an
organisation in debt to each new civis. It is ridiculous to
ask him to contribute to our Res Publica, our Common Thing,
unless that Common Thing gives something to the civis.
Perhaps most of us here want to enjoy the Roman atmosphere,
learn interesting things about Rome, and meet interesting
and congenial people of similar interests. Some also wish to
be organisationally active and build our political and
administrative life and our most concrete expression, our
website.

In the course of these activities people have
expectations and they have values. They will enjoy these
things if they feel that the people they interact with, and
especially those people identified as "leaders" or
"authorities" treat them with friendliness, respect,
fairness and helpfulness. People might put up with lacks in
these areas in situations where there is a government over
them with police and courts, or when they are paid for their
troubles - but if we wish to be successful here as a
voluntary organisation in the modern world on the internet,
we cannot be lacking in these qualities. Not if we want to
survive and grow.

The Senior Consul wants us to survive and grow. So do I.
But in saying that our cives have no *rights*, he is
proposing a notion that will drive people away from us in
droves. People want a good experience here. If they are
treated as dehumanised work-units for an abstract concept of
"Roman growth" under the domination of people whose only
importance is that they were here earlier and firmly seized
the levers of power - well, it is obvious that normal
mentally healthy people, even if intensely interested in
Rome, will go to Ancient Sites or other alternatives,
web-based or not. Who cares about Roman growth if it brings
only a negative experience to the typical members of the
group?

A policy of growth showing PRUDENTIA in such a situation
can only be one of remembering assiduously that SALUS POPULI
SUPREMA LEX - The well-being of the People is the supreme
law. Not an abstract Rome, but concrete, living, individual
human beings. That means showing IUSTITIA towards every
single civis and every single person who might want to
become a civis and everyone who was a civis and wants to
come back. It means being responsive to what people want, to
helping them solve problems with the system instead of
making the system a cause of problems to them. Such
attitudes and practices will win us new members and keep the
old. The opposite attitudes amd practices will keep new
members away and drive away the old.

A good example of this at work is the case of Lucius
Marius Aurelianus. Desiring to do a simple thing - change
his own name in the public records - he has been driven to
resign in protest, and tormented with edicta that have
perpetually frustrated an ardently-desired return to the
Nova Roman fold.

Mind you, in any normal U.S. court, as I understand the
law, he could apply to change his name to Lucius Marius
Aurelianus and routinely receive permission to do it.
Unfortunately, because one or more authorities of Nova Roma
have personal problems with transsexuals, there are detailed
provisions in our rules relating gross biological sex to
rules of Latin grammatical gender, completely bypassing how
a person identifies and presents himself, which a reasonable
person might well consider the most important thing.
Transsexual individuals are treated as a special problem
requiring special documentation instead of just a somewhat
rare but normal situation.

And as an ultimate insult, when the individual in
question, abused by prejudice, bureaucracy and pettifogging
meanness of spirit, sought the refreshment of our local
tavern, his troubles had just begun. Discussing with a
friend the fair reporting of the whole affair in the Eagle,
where Sulla - a not terribly objective reporter due to his
close involvement - was proposing to put an article on the
Gender Wars, what should happen, but that Sulla himself
should suddenly appear from where he had been lurking in the
tavern. The said Consul complained that his version of
things deserved to be published as the official truth for
internetless cives, causing the great pent-up frustration of
Marius to explode after months of runaround - the whole
thing leading to extreme agitation and heated words on both
sides of the argument, so that both sides said more than
they ought. Prominent were reproaches by Sulla directed at
Marius for being a non-citizen - the very situation that he
had been making it difficult for Marius to correct for so
long, and obviously especially maddening. This battle was
made into such an issue at the Senatorial level that prompt
action is taken.

And was this prompt action to look into why an
enthusiastic once-and hopefully-future civis is still
aggrieved to such an extent? Did it investigate how to
reassign the name-change case of this party to a more
neutral figure than Sulla, who was so angry after the
unfortunate combat that the process of documentation
provision and acceptance already more or less agreed upon
ground to a halt, and he may never now be reasonably
expected to treat the case objectively under his (and
Merullus') Edictum?

No, it dealt with finding a new chat room with the
virtual equivalent of husky bouncers at the door who *could*
be used to keep Marius out, and where instead of lurking
Censors there would be full-time official police perhaps
noting every word. There are advantages to this setup, and
even Marius likes it, but those bouncers - a ban feature,
really - could be used against anyone, including him, and
the idea of recording our every word is not appealing. (I
would rather have lurkers and brawls, myself.)

When a law is bad and offends against Iustitia, it calls
for political action to change the law, and the same is true
if a decent law is administered unjustly. So, that means
another Gender War could be shaping up, if the Edictum de
Nominibus Mutandis cannot be administered neutrally and
objectively to solve this ex-and-future-civis' problem. But
unless perhaps the Tribunes act decisively - if indeed that
would work against a Censor's refusal to treat a
now-personal-enemy objectively, it may be even more long
drawn out, divisive, boring, unpleasant, discouraging to new
members (and old ones!), and generally a drain. But to what
purpose a Nova Roma if it is going to be egregiously unjust?
We claim to be here to further Iustitia among other things.

When the only weapon to hand is a loud voice and
persistence, that is what seekers after public Iustitia will
use. The problem will not lie with them if this takes a long
time, has undesirable side effects, and becomes acrimonious.
It will lie with those who deny simple justice.

For Iustitia is not created by human laws; it is taught
us by the divine spark of Ratio in each of us which
enlightens our consciences. Each individual is responsible
to that before all else, and a law that does not resonate
with that inner Iustitia is a thing of ridicule at best and
abomination at worst. If we love Nova Roma, we will treat
our legislation and its administration in a spirit of
finding true Iustitia. A legal situation that denies a
humane, decent and intelligent lover of Romanitas a place
among us because of useless prejudices about sexuality and
personal animosity harms that person and harms us. There is
no gain. It offends my deepest conscience, and to remain in
Nova Roma with a clear conscience I have to work to change
it until it *is* changed.

But this post uses this one case primarily as an
illustration of its main point. If Marius were a customer at
a company with a prudent and sensible management and wanted
to start using a name of the opposite sex, openly and with
no intent to defraud, would not that management forget about
the irrelevancy of the name and be grateful to a client
willing to pay so much? (Pay through love of Romanitas above
and beyond the norm, through knowledge, dedication, and just
plain good and humanly-warm companionship.) Would a
reasonable management refuse to accept payment due to sexual
prejudice and personal dislike, and hire thugs to beat
Marius up if he complained about one-sided reporting of the
situation?

We err very seriously if we do not realise we are in
that situation. As Merullus and Australiacus so well
analysed the matter, we must realise that we do not have an
automatic "captive" population inside territorial limits
where people have to obey our laws to make a living and
raise their families. We have no army or police or secret
service to enforce our imperium. Our worst threat is to say
something nasty to someone and exclude him from our midst.
And by the time it comes to that, most people would be
enchanted with the chance to be gone.

Lacking any credible negative reinforcement of
importance, we *must* perforce depend on positive
reinforcement. Of making people truly glad to spend their
time here and contribute. That requires making them feel
wanted, respected, useful, and cared about. About making the
system work for the civis, not trying to force the civis
into a Procrustean bed of rules that serve no human
function. This is not a question of democracy. It is true
for any organisation such as ours, whether an absolute
monarchy, a pure participatory democracy or something in
between. That monarch had better be *awfully* gracious,
regal, helpful, benevolent, and capable of putting on a good
show, or people will not wish to be his subjects. This is
true for us too. Our magistrates should foster true justice
and our Senate deliberate with the most mature of wisdom,
and our popular assemblies vote with the greatest freedom if
we want to be an attractive succesor to Roma Antiqua and
competitor with Ancient Sites. If the predominant attitude
is one of self-importance and the pleasure of imposing
things on people, it will be deadly.

And if we make a Nova Roma a place that knows how to
care about every citizen, that listens to its conscience
more than the macronations, that deals with conspicuous
justness and fairness, that achieves order without
bureacracy, and unites cives from the entire world, of all
races and ages and sexual preferences in Concordia - then,
and only then, will many people feel a real desire to
sacrifice for Nova Roma, to make Her defence and Salus a
matter of personal honour, and her growth and enrichment
something to live for as the Senior Consul rightly wishes.

My father had a favourate saying that is apt for this
thesis, and should be engraved on the wall of our virtual
Senate Chamber: "You can catch more flies with honey than
with vinegar."

Valete!

--
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Scriba Censorius
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Fiction, Chapter 4
From:	"Little Dragon" <fionaerin@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:26:07 -0000

---Salve Feste!!

Wonderful chapter, although it makes me wonder what it would be like
to be 18 again. On the other hand I am somewhat glad I'll be turning
20 soon. Thank You for sharing this, one question though. Will there
be chains to go along with this whip,and dog collars (don't forget
the spikes ;-).*Looking Hopeful*



Vale
Aeternia Draconia








In novaroma@--------, Lykaion1@c... wrote:
> THE INQUIRY
>
> Chapter IV: The House of Sulla
>
> Gaius Lupinius Festus arrived at Cassius' rented house shortly
after
> sunset, with three horses he had rented for the evening. Cassius
and Draco
> were waiting outside when he arrived. When he saw the horses,
Cassius looked
> surprised. "What is all this?", he asked, bewildered. "The latest
> development in transportation, Cassius. They're called horses!",
replied
> Draco. "Thank you so much," said Cassius sarcastically. "I think I
could
> have figured that out for myself if you had just given me a couple
of
> moments. What I mean is, what are they for? How far away is this
place that
> we're going?" "Not far," said Gaius. "Just outside the
city." "Well
> then," said Cassius as he mounted, "maybe you wouldn't mind telling
us where
> we're heading?" Gaius grinned. "To Sulla's!"
> Cassius' mouth dropped open. "Sulla? Here? In Caesarea?"
> "The last I'd heard of Sulla was that he was in Pompeii," said
Draco. "He
> was running a brothel! What's he doing here?"
> "Same thing," Gaius answered. "He has a tavern and brothel here,
one in
> Sidon, and one more on Cypress."
> Cassius stopped his mount. "Now wait a moment," he protested, "I'm
a Roman
> senator. Now Draco may be a party boy like his friend Nero, and
you may be a
> born again barbarian, but I have to maintain some dignity!"
> "No, no, no!", Gaius insistied, "we're not going to the tavern.
We're going
> to his home! One night each month Sulla throws the biggest party
in
> Caesarea. Just relax, will you? You do not have to do anything to
> compromise your dignitas, ol' boy." Cassius thought about this a
moment.
> "Well, I guess we could see Sulla again. Has he changed much?"
> "You will have to see for yourself", Gaius answered. "Alright
then", agreed
> Cassius, "but still, why the expense for these horses? Are we
really in that
> much of a hurry to get there?"
> Gaius turned his head to look at him. "The horses aren't to get us
there
> quickly. They are to get us OUT quickly, if we need to." Draco
and Cassius
> looked at each other. "Gaius is just playing games with you, I'm
sure,"
> Draco said reassuringly.
>
> The House of Sulla was a villa next to the beach, just a short
distance
> from the city. As they arrived, a porter emerged from the main
gate to take
> their horses. "A pleasure to see you again Master Lykaion!", he
said as they
> dismounted. The porter took charge of the horses. "I'll have them
in the
> usual spot for you sir", he said. "Splendid", said Gaius, slapping
the
> porter on the shoulder. "These other two men are with me." The
porter
> nodded. "I am sure friends of Lykaion are friends of Master
Sulla. Looks
> like it is to be quite an evening, sir! There is already quite a
large
> company inside." Gaius gave the porter a coin, and the three of
them passed
> into the outer courtyard. There were gardens and paths running the
full
> circuit of the house, and two naked Venuses flanked the door. Even
outside,
> they could hear from within the sounds of music and laughter. As
they made
> their way to the main door of the house, they were met by a very
tall and
> muscular woman with long curley black hair. It was Iris, one of
Sulla's mud
> wrestlers, and a formidable bouncer when her services were needed.
She did
> not smile. She nodded to Gaius and looked at his two
companions. "They with
> you?", she asked, expessionless. Gaius nodded, and the Amazon
walked over
> Cassius and Draco, and stared at them. "Welcome to the House of
Sulla", she
> said, with no emotion. "As you are with Lykaion, you shall be
admitted.
> Proper behavior will be expected of you. No chastity, no morality,
no
> non-intoxicating beverages of any kind will be tolerated, save for
water in
> the event you get sick and throw up, or pass out unconscious." Her
eyes
> narrowed into slits. "You both look like perverts, so you should
feel at
> home. Now you will follow me."
> Cassius was indignant. "Why, that impertinent, insulting..."
Gaius jerked
> his head towards him and signalled to drop it. "It is her job," he
> whispered. "Don't take her seriously." Iris led them to the large
banquet
> room, and there, they stopped. The mouths of Cassius and Draco
dropped open
> in astonishment. There were so far about one hundred guests, many
reclining
> on couches feasting on the succulent dinner prepared by Sulla's
kitchen
> staff. In the center of the room, scantily clad dancing girls
girated to the
> musicians sounds. The room was darkend, illuminated only by small
lamps on
> tables and a few from the ceiling. "Let's get a table!", Gaius
shouted over
> the music. The room they were in was flanked on three sides by
several
> smaller rooms, separated by screens of stringed beads. Through
these,
> Cassius and Draco could see couples, threesomes, foursomes, and
moresomes,
> engaging in all manner of debauchery, mighty copulations. "Gods!",
Draco
> cried gleefully, "Did you see that?!?!" Cassius looked on with
horror at
> the goings on. "This is so disgusting! Perverse!"
> "This is great!", replied Draco.
> Gaius said nothing, but led them to a small table in a corner. He
sat down,
> with his back to the wall, surveying the scene about him, nodding
his head
> with satisfaction. Draco and Cassius were both sitting themselves
down, when
> one of the dancing girls, a well endowed nymph, ran over to the
table.
> "Excuse me sir, "she said to Cassius, "but you need a facial." And
with
> that, the girl put one hand behind his head and thrust his face
into her
> ample, vesuvian bosm, and shook. "Welcome to Sulla's!", she
screamed. Gaius
> tossed her coin. "Thanks love. Better let him out of there before
he
> suffocates!". The girl laughed and ran back to her dance. Cassius
was pale.
> "My gods, I almost died in there!"
> "Yes, but what a death!", laughed Gaius in reply. Cassius was not
amused.
> "You had something to do with that, didn't you!", he accused. He
got no
> answer, and looked about the room. A man dressed as Dionysius was
playfully
> chasing one of the effeminate 'pretty boys' around the room. Some
revellers,
> sweaty and worn out, emerged naked from the side rooms to take some
> refreshment before plunging headlong into another bout. And coming
into the
> room from a staircase on one side was what appeared to be a very
large woman,
> drapped in silkin gowns. Her face was covered in white makeup and
her lips
> painted a dark crimson red. Her hair was raven black and braided,
and she
> walked, or wobbled, with an exagerated effeminacy. This woman was,
in a
> word, grotesque, and yet everyone seemed deferential and respectful
to her.
> "Eeeewwwwww!", said Draco, beholding the sight. "Is that a man or
a woman?"
> "Eeeewwwwww!", said Cassius, beholding as well. "Is that a human
or an
> animal?"
> "Ooooohhhhh!", squealed the woman, man, or whatever it was, seeing
them in
> the corner and starting to run over to their table. Cassius cried
in terror.
> "It's seen us! Oh my god, it's coming right at us!"
> Gaius Lupinius Festus was laughing hysterically now. "Cassius my
friend,
> that is neither human nor animal. It's Sulla!"
>
> Sulla was jumping up and down with glee, clapping his
hands. "Cassius!
> Draco! Gaius! It is sooo wonderful to see you all here!!!" He
plopped his
> ponderous backside onto the lap of the terrified Cassius. "I
could just
> kiss all of you!"
> "Don't you dare!", cried Cassius. Sulla looked dejected. "Oh
Cassius, you
> are just like Gaius. So heterosexual!" He called for wine, and
clapped his
> hands three times. Immediately, a steward brought them a skin of
wine, and
> two barely clothed females appeared, each choosing one of Sulla's
guests at
> the table. The Egyptian girl sat on Cassius lap and began nibbling
on his
> ear, while Cassius tried to shoo her off. Draco had the Syrian
maiden.
> "None for you Gaius!", giggled Sulla. "You have to find your own!
You know
> them all anyway." Cassius was panicking now. "Sulla, will you
please get
> this waif off of me?" The girl looked insulted. "Whatsa matter?
Ain't you
> got one?", she asked with derision. Sulla jerked his head towards
the center
> of the room, and the girl left. Cassius rose. "That's it. I am
not
> staying here any longer!" Sulla jumped up. "Oh dahling, you
cannot possibly
> leave! We have sooo much to talk about!"
> "You'll have to forgive Cassius", said Draco. "He is newly
married."
> "Oh! How wonderful!", Sulla giggled, clapping his hands
again. "To whom?"
> "He married Patricia, about four months ago", Draco explained, "and
his life
> is now over".
> Sulla gasped. "Oh, Patricia! You lucky boy! Such a tasty,
delictable
> morsel!", Sulla said, poking poor Cassius in the ribs. Sulla
continued.
> "Patricia has always had such exquisite taste in clothing. I have
always
> wanted to dress just like her!" "I have to go", Cassius
protested, "while I
> have some dignity left!"
> Gaius sneered. "What dignity? You're a politician! You abandoned
all
> dignity when you entered the senate!"
> "Now that was not called for!", yelled Cassius, stung by this barb.
> Draco intervened. "Gaius, stop it. Cassius, please don't go.
Just stay and
> try to have some fun!"
> "Draco, I'm a stoic!", exclaimed Cassius, "We don't have fun!"
> "Oh, poor Patricia!!!", sniffed Sulla.
> "Damn it Sulla, you know what I mean!", Cassius shot back.
> Draco stood up and spoke softly and calmly. "You still haven't
been able to
> discuss your legal case with Gaius. Look, no one is asking you to
betray
> your marriage vow. Just relax and be sociable, alright!" Cassius
closed
> his eyes and regained his composure. "Alright", he said, "I'll
stay. But I
> won't betray my wife!"
> "That's fine", said Sulla. "You just sit here and enjoy the wine
and the
> music, and we'll betray your wife!"
> Gaius screwed up his face and spit onto the floor. "Gads.....this
wine
> tastes like donkey piss!" Sulla was taken aback aback. "I'll have
you know
> I paid four drachma for that wine!"
> "Why?" Gaius asked. "Where is the good stuff?" Sulla rolled his
eyes. "Oh,
> I suppose if you must. Go to the back of the kitchen area and
you'll find
> your Italian favorite there. But please do not tell anyone! If
anyone knows
> I let you have some, then I have to let everyone have it!" "Be
right back!",
> said Gaius, leaving the table.
> A gong sounded, announcing the arrival of a new girl at the
party. All
> heads turned toward the entrance. At the sight of her, some of the
men who
> knew her backed away carefully. Cassius and Draco both wondered
why. She
> was dressed all in black, with a veil over the lower half of her
face. Her
> hair was also pitch black, and around her forehead was a gold
colored band,
> bearing the image of a serpent. Her arms bore several ornaments,
and her
> exquisitely sculptd body could just be discerned beneath her gowns,
which
> clung it, giving a hint of her graceful form. Sulla giggled in
delight.
> "Ah....she came! She has never come to my tavern or to my parties,
but I
> persuaded her tonight."
> "Who is she?", whistled Draco, in admiration. A steward introduced
her to
> the assembled guests. "Friends! We are delighted to present
tonight, for
> your pleasure, The Mistress of the Forbidden Pleasures! She will
be
> rendering her special services for you tonight, by appointment
only, on a
> first come, first served basis!" The Mistress of the Forbidden
Pleasures
> surveyed the room, her face showing no expression. Draco rose from
the
> table. "Gentlemen, you must excuse me, while I make the
aquaintance of this
> Goddess!" He thrust aside the Syrian girl and left. "That was my
> customer!", the Syrian girl cried! "Oh, don't fret!" chided
Sulla. "Go find
> yourself a drunken sailer or something." "It's not fair! He was
MY
> customer!", she whined as she walked dejectedly away.
> Draco approached the mysterious woman, who watched him, but
made no
> effort to acknowledge him. "It is a beautful night, my lady",
Draco said
> with a slight bow. The eyes of the mysterious lady flared, as she
produced a
> whip from her gown. "I did not give you permission to speak!" she
hissed,
> cracking the whip on Draco, who screamed in pain. "Goddamn! You
little..."
> The lady's eyes flared again. "How dare you address me in that
tone of
> voice!", she screamed, giving Draco a sharp kick in the shin. She
raised the
> whip again, and Draco fled in terror back to the table, as if
Cassius would
> be able to defend him. Cassius had watched the spectacle with wide
open
> eyes. "Who's that?!?", he asked Sulla. "Who's that? WHAT'S
THAT?!?!",
> Draco cried, nursing his shin. "Oh", Sulla laughed, "that is
Aeternia
> Draconia! She's a dominatrix you know". "Yeah, I think I just
discovered
> that!", said the annoyed Draco, "Thanks for the heads-up Sulla."
Aeternia
> the dominatrix passed by the table, growling like a tigress as she
stared
> directly at Draco. "Sulla, you keep that...thing away from me!"
Sulla
> shooed the vixen away. "This is not your customer, Aeternia. Now,
be a good
> girl and go to your chamber. When your, uh...clients arrive, I
shall send
> them to do directly!" Aeternia growled again, glared at Draco, and
walked
> away from them. Gaius Lupinius was returning with his wine.
Aeternia saw
> him, and approached him. Cassius observed this, and a chill ran
through him,
> "Sulla", he said, "stop her! She'll kill him!" But before the
words were
> out of his mouth, she smiled. "Gaius!", she squealed, hugging
him. "Tink!",
> he replied, putting an arm around her shoulder and leading over to
the wall,
> out of the way of the revellers. "How are you Tink?", he asked
> affectionately. "Look!", she said, as she pulled from her gown a
scap of
> paper with some writing on it. Gaius looked at the paper. It was
Aeternia's
> name, written in her own hand, along with some simple
sentences. "You wrote
> this!", he asked with pretended surprise. She nodded, unable to
wipe the
> smile from her face. "Julia Isidora, that priestess of Isis you
introduced
> to us, she's teaching me! And she's going to teach us to read
too!"
> Aeternia Draconia had grown up on the tough streets of Corinth,
where she
> learned at an early age to hit, kick, and scratch and scream in
such a way as
> to induce fear in others. It was her way of protecting herself
from the
> assorted dregs and scum that populated that wild and notorius
city. It was
> not long that she discovered that there were men, and some women,
who would
> pay money to be abused in that manner. And so it was that
Aeternia, at
> eighteen, was a dominatrix, with a small but well paying
clientele. She
> shared a room with another young prostitute, Lauria Crispa,
seventeen,
> another abandoned and neglected girl of the streets. "Where's
Lauria?",
> Gaius asked.
> "She's here, somewhere", replied Aeternia, looking around the
room. "I'm
> worried about her,Gaius."
> "Why? What happened?"
> Aeternia looked around to make sure no one could hear. "She hasn't
been
> well", she whispered. "She drinks way too much, and it makes her
vulnerable,
> know what I mean?" Gaius looked down and shook his head. "And
she's been
> hit."
> Gaius looked up, shocked. "Hit? By whom?"
> Aeternia hesitated a moment. "Sporus", she whispered. "He hit her
> yesterday."
> "Sporus!", Gaius said angrily. He spit. "That little
abortion....Has he
> abused you?"
> "No Gaius. He hasn't met me yet. And besides, I would whip his
ass!"
> Gaius laughed. "Yes, I bet you would! You would whip MY ass!"
> "If you're bad", Aeternia said with a sly grin. "Have you been
bad?"
> Gaius had an idea, and the more he thought about it, the funnier it
seemed.
> "I may be", he said. "Tink, you say he has not met you yet?"
> "No, not at all", she answered. "I have not worked Sulla's tavern,
so he has
> never seen me."
> "Hmmmm", said Gaius, pondering. "Tink love, how would you like to
avenge
> Lauria on Sporus?"
> "You're not going to cost me my job, are you Gaius? I mean, you're
not going
> to get Sulla mad at me so I can't work his parties, will you? I
need the
> income!"
> Gaius reassured her. "No, no. no...you will be quite alright!
Sporus will
> do this to himself!" He leaned over and whispered something into
Aeternia's
> ear. And Aeternia threw back her head and laughed.
>
> End of Chapter IV
>
> Continued in V, "A Slap In The Face"


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Subject:	[novaroma] Upcoming Sodalis election
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:29:00 -0500

Avete Omnes!

Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator, Dominus Sodalis et Scriptor et Numus Vigil, scripsit:

Ex Magna Carta et Regulae pro Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus -

I am hereby giving notice of elections to be held concurrent with our August Official Online
Function (OOF). That is, the chat scheduled for the 9th hour after noon on the 27th day of August.
Voting will be conducted by private e-mail to the Dominus, who acts as Rogator for the Sodalis.
Physical mail will be accepted if postmarked at least on week ahead of the Augst OOF, that is, by 20
August. Results will be posted to both the Nova Roma Main List and the Sodalis list not later then
two weeks before the September OOF, 24 September, at which time the new officers shall take up their
offices.

Nominations for Dominus - full term of one year, Scriptor and Numus Vigil - 1/2 term of six months
will be accepted up to the end of the July OOF, 9 PM to 12 AM central 23 July. In accord with the
Charter and Bylaws, the Sodalis member who stands for office must be must be a Citizen of Nova Rome,
though any member can nominate someone, including themselves. Citizenship status will be double
checked with the Censors. Please send nominations to both the Main Nova Roma and Sodalis Lists. If
you do not wish to do so, send me a private email and I shall post the nomination as being from A.
Nonius Mus.

I certainly hope persons amongst the membership will stand for office. I shall stand for Scriptor.
I have some good ideas on what I'd like to do as a newsletter for the Sodalis, as well as a Sodalis
page for the Eagle.

Please do read the Sodalis Charter and Bylaws before either nominating oneself or another person. I
have posted them in the file areas of both the Main and Sodalis lists. Take notice please: the
Sodalis is, purposely, Autocratic in governing style - but with certain checks and balances. I know
that the time scale for this first election is compressed, but this is born of necessity if we want
to get the Sodalis on a regular cycle.

And I think a telling of the Sodalis -Statement of Purpose- is in order: The Sodalis pro Coqueror
et Coquus (Sodalis hereafter) shall be devoted to the research into and preparation & enjoyment of,
the beverages, foods and dining methods of Roma Antiqua, those cultures with which She came into
contact and the Host Cultures of Nova Roma's Cives. The main emphasis of all efforts will be Roma
Antiqua, with an eye to the future of Nova Roma. The Sodalis shall provide a forum for improved
communication and exchange of information between the Brewers and Cooks of Nova Roma, and to the
benefit of the general population. The Sodalis shall also strive to act as a training ground for
Cives considering service as Curule Aediles. The Sodalis shall strive to help the members to
improve in their skills of research, preparation and presentation, thereby helping all Nova Roman to
increase their enjoyment of drink, food, feating and celebration.

Quant. suff.

In Appetitus - Venii

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Subject:	[novaroma] NR Chatroom
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:44:16 -0400 (EDT)

Salvete, Citizens;

My apologies for my silence on the above topic, but this is a busy
season in reenactment and there have been some opportunities offered to
both myself and my unit that simply could not be ignored.

Your comments to the Senate and to the Consuls have been heard and acted
upon. While my Co-Consul has been trying to determine exactly what was
said, and what has happened , I undertook to contact Maria V. on the
basis of a friend and ask if there was any way that I could help.

This morning, I have completed the reading of the 300+ E-Mails in my
mailbox, and as a result I believe I have a somewhat better idea of the
problem on balance.

Maria has apologized to me (and I forward that apology to you) for her
outburst (her words not mine) in the chatroom the other day, saying she
had been provoked past her tolerance. On the other hand, I see nothing
that was said to her that was untrue or which did not apply to a
non-citizen.

I have asked Maria to take such discussions off-chat / off-line in the
future, and in fact she has done so, before my request, and has reached
some accomodation , at least in her view, with the individual /
situation. Since Maria has indicated in an oblique way that this
situation is related to government not meeting her needs (when she was a
citizen) I must bear some of the responsibility for this lapse in my
leadership failure to better inspire those whom I serve. For that lapse
I apologize to you all. My only defense is that, as your Excellent
Tribune has discussed at some length, Leadership is a difficult thing to
master, without a code of laws, and paymaster at your back it is a very
difficult thing to master, and with the large variety of social views
present in Nova Roma by a wide range of experience and intellect and
willinness / ability to be actively involved in the maintenance of it,
can be downright challenging. I beg to acquaint you with the fact the I
and my Co-Consul are trying very hard.

In regard to what was said, I believe it not necessary to go into that
in detail again, except to say this;

--Each side of this argument has a very different view of the situation,
and due to the length of the involvement with the questions related
here, it is my belief that the problem can only be resolved off-line and
privately between the participants and apparently that is happening
slowly but steadily. For that I wish to cordially thank both
indivduals. I see no need for my further involvement in this
happenstance, as Consul, except to call attention to what the
Magistrates and the Consuls and the Senators have been saying for
sometime:

---Unfeeling responses beget rage;

---Disagreement does not preclude polite response;

---Personal disagreements have no place in NR on a public net;

---Citizens comments and views, positive or negative are welcome and
Magistrates are bound to read and act upon them, to the ultimate good of
NR, in the view of the Magistrate, until recalled.

However, this situation like almost all the foregoing ones have been a
learning experience, and we have taken some positive steps to make NR
better. To this end I must comment in the following way:

--We are moving forward in our attempt to improve our chatroom in such a
way as to protect the right of our citizens to project thier views, but
also to protect the citizens from personal or uncalled for attack;

--We are slowly realizing that we cannot depend upon sole individual
reason to govern our action, but must have senible and agreed upon
safeguards in place so as to encourage our new members, and to keep the
internet a place where all members wish to come to share Roman Ideas and
Ideals without persecution;

--We are taking action to meet the needs of all NR Citizens first, and
of those who would be citizens as soon as possible.

That we will have conflicts along the way, in attitudes, views, and
methodology is virtually certain. That your elected and appointed
officials are there to meet and resolve these anticipated conflicts, is
an indication of the strength of your choices in deciding who will
govern this micronation and in the ways we have selcted to do so.

Salve, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Honey, Please. - Ubi est mel?
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:55:59 -0700

Ave, Formosanus

My best advice to you, so that you can get a better understanding of what
has happened, is to go back to the NR archieves, and read every post from
March to the Present. That would give you somewhat of a decent
understanding of what went on. And, it might balance your point of view for
both sides and not just one side as it seems to be in the post below.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:

> Salvete Cives Novae Romae!
>
> I have been heartened by the relatively profound - and
> relatively rancour-free - discussions we have been having
> here of late. A lot of thinkers such as Australiacus, Vado,
> Merullus, Fortunatus, and Pristinus have been making highly
> critical and intelligent posts about the basic structure of
> authority and governance here in Nova Roma.
>
> Some others seem to me to be woefully unrealistic. I
> think the single thing that we must keep in our minds to
> deal with these issues is that *we have competition*. People
> can find other interests, other internet activities, other
> Roman and classical sites, other religions, other things of
> all sorts. If we want them to come here, become cives and
> contribute, we have to offer them a product they will
> adjudge better than the competition for their time and
> effort.
>
> And when someone joins Nova Roma, that person is by that
> simple act conferring a boon upon us. Without a population
> Nova Roma would be nothing. And every new recruit takes us
> further from nothing and makes us larger, more varied, more
> talented, more interesting, more powerful, more significant
> in the world.
>
> That recruit wants something in return. That might
> differ from person to person, but we begin as an
> organisation in debt to each new civis. It is ridiculous to
> ask him to contribute to our Res Publica, our Common Thing,
> unless that Common Thing gives something to the civis.
> Perhaps most of us here want to enjoy the Roman atmosphere,
> learn interesting things about Rome, and meet interesting
> and congenial people of similar interests. Some also wish to
> be organisationally active and build our political and
> administrative life and our most concrete expression, our
> website.
>
> In the course of these activities people have
> expectations and they have values. They will enjoy these
> things if they feel that the people they interact with, and
> especially those people identified as "leaders" or
> "authorities" treat them with friendliness, respect,
> fairness and helpfulness. People might put up with lacks in
> these areas in situations where there is a government over
> them with police and courts, or when they are paid for their
> troubles - but if we wish to be successful here as a
> voluntary organisation in the modern world on the internet,
> we cannot be lacking in these qualities. Not if we want to
> survive and grow.
>
> The Senior Consul wants us to survive and grow. So do I.
> But in saying that our cives have no *rights*, he is
> proposing a notion that will drive people away from us in
> droves. People want a good experience here. If they are
> treated as dehumanised work-units for an abstract concept of
> "Roman growth" under the domination of people whose only
> importance is that they were here earlier and firmly seized
> the levers of power - well, it is obvious that normal
> mentally healthy people, even if intensely interested in
> Rome, will go to Ancient Sites or other alternatives,
> web-based or not. Who cares about Roman growth if it brings
> only a negative experience to the typical members of the
> group?
>
> A policy of growth showing PRUDENTIA in such a situation
> can only be one of remembering assiduously that SALUS POPULI
> SUPREMA LEX - The well-being of the People is the supreme
> law. Not an abstract Rome, but concrete, living, individual
> human beings. That means showing IUSTITIA towards every
> single civis and every single person who might want to
> become a civis and everyone who was a civis and wants to
> come back. It means being responsive to what people want, to
> helping them solve problems with the system instead of
> making the system a cause of problems to them. Such
> attitudes and practices will win us new members and keep the
> old. The opposite attitudes amd practices will keep new
> members away and drive away the old.
>
> A good example of this at work is the case of Lucius
> Marius Aurelianus. Desiring to do a simple thing - change
> his own name in the public records - he has been driven to
> resign in protest, and tormented with edicta that have
> perpetually frustrated an ardently-desired return to the
> Nova Roman fold.
>
> Mind you, in any normal U.S. court, as I understand the
> law, he could apply to change his name to Lucius Marius
> Aurelianus and routinely receive permission to do it.
> Unfortunately, because one or more authorities of Nova Roma
> have personal problems with transsexuals, there are detailed
> provisions in our rules relating gross biological sex to
> rules of Latin grammatical gender, completely bypassing how
> a person identifies and presents himself, which a reasonable
> person might well consider the most important thing.
> Transsexual individuals are treated as a special problem
> requiring special documentation instead of just a somewhat
> rare but normal situation.
>
> And as an ultimate insult, when the individual in
> question, abused by prejudice, bureaucracy and pettifogging
> meanness of spirit, sought the refreshment of our local
> tavern, his troubles had just begun. Discussing with a
> friend the fair reporting of the whole affair in the Eagle,
> where Sulla - a not terribly objective reporter due to his
> close involvement - was proposing to put an article on the
> Gender Wars, what should happen, but that Sulla himself
> should suddenly appear from where he had been lurking in the
> tavern. The said Consul complained that his version of
> things deserved to be published as the official truth for
> internetless cives, causing the great pent-up frustration of
> Marius to explode after months of runaround - the whole
> thing leading to extreme agitation and heated words on both
> sides of the argument, so that both sides said more than
> they ought. Prominent were reproaches by Sulla directed at
> Marius for being a non-citizen - the very situation that he
> had been making it difficult for Marius to correct for so
> long, and obviously especially maddening. This battle was
> made into such an issue at the Senatorial level that prompt
> action is taken.
>
> And was this prompt action to look into why an
> enthusiastic once-and hopefully-future civis is still
> aggrieved to such an extent? Did it investigate how to
> reassign the name-change case of this party to a more
> neutral figure than Sulla, who was so angry after the
> unfortunate combat that the process of documentation
> provision and acceptance already more or less agreed upon
> ground to a halt, and he may never now be reasonably
> expected to treat the case objectively under his (and
> Merullus') Edictum?
>
> No, it dealt with finding a new chat room with the
> virtual equivalent of husky bouncers at the door who *could*
> be used to keep Marius out, and where instead of lurking
> Censors there would be full-time official police perhaps
> noting every word. There are advantages to this setup, and
> even Marius likes it, but those bouncers - a ban feature,
> really - could be used against anyone, including him, and
> the idea of recording our every word is not appealing. (I
> would rather have lurkers and brawls, myself.)
>
> When a law is bad and offends against Iustitia, it calls
> for political action to change the law, and the same is true
> if a decent law is administered unjustly. So, that means
> another Gender War could be shaping up, if the Edictum de
> Nominibus Mutandis cannot be administered neutrally and
> objectively to solve this ex-and-future-civis' problem. But
> unless perhaps the Tribunes act decisively - if indeed that
> would work against a Censor's refusal to treat a
> now-personal-enemy objectively, it may be even more long
> drawn out, divisive, boring, unpleasant, discouraging to new
> members (and old ones!), and generally a drain. But to what
> purpose a Nova Roma if it is going to be egregiously unjust?
> We claim to be here to further Iustitia among other things.
>
> When the only weapon to hand is a loud voice and
> persistence, that is what seekers after public Iustitia will
> use. The problem will not lie with them if this takes a long
> time, has undesirable side effects, and becomes acrimonious.
> It will lie with those who deny simple justice.
>
> For Iustitia is not created by human laws; it is taught
> us by the divine spark of Ratio in each of us which
> enlightens our consciences. Each individual is responsible
> to that before all else, and a law that does not resonate
> with that inner Iustitia is a thing of ridicule at best and
> abomination at worst. If we love Nova Roma, we will treat
> our legislation and its administration in a spirit of
> finding true Iustitia. A legal situation that denies a
> humane, decent and intelligent lover of Romanitas a place
> among us because of useless prejudices about sexuality and
> personal animosity harms that person and harms us. There is
> no gain. It offends my deepest conscience, and to remain in
> Nova Roma with a clear conscience I have to work to change
> it until it *is* changed.
>
> But this post uses this one case primarily as an
> illustration of its main point. If Marius were a customer at
> a company with a prudent and sensible management and wanted
> to start using a name of the opposite sex, openly and with
> no intent to defraud, would not that management forget about
> the irrelevancy of the name and be grateful to a client
> willing to pay so much? (Pay through love of Romanitas above
> and beyond the norm, through knowledge, dedication, and just
> plain good and humanly-warm companionship.) Would a
> reasonable management refuse to accept payment due to sexual
> prejudice and personal dislike, and hire thugs to beat
> Marius up if he complained about one-sided reporting of the
> situation?
>
> We err very seriously if we do not realise we are in
> that situation. As Merullus and Australiacus so well
> analysed the matter, we must realise that we do not have an
> automatic "captive" population inside territorial limits
> where people have to obey our laws to make a living and
> raise their families. We have no army or police or secret
> service to enforce our imperium. Our worst threat is to say
> something nasty to someone and exclude him from our midst.
> And by the time it comes to that, most people would be
> enchanted with the chance to be gone.
>
> Lacking any credible negative reinforcement of
> importance, we *must* perforce depend on positive
> reinforcement. Of making people truly glad to spend their
> time here and contribute. That requires making them feel
> wanted, respected, useful, and cared about. About making the
> system work for the civis, not trying to force the civis
> into a Procrustean bed of rules that serve no human
> function. This is not a question of democracy. It is true
> for any organisation such as ours, whether an absolute
> monarchy, a pure participatory democracy or something in
> between. That monarch had better be *awfully* gracious,
> regal, helpful, benevolent, and capable of putting on a good
> show, or people will not wish to be his subjects. This is
> true for us too. Our magistrates should foster true justice
> and our Senate deliberate with the most mature of wisdom,
> and our popular assemblies vote with the greatest freedom if
> we want to be an attractive succesor to Roma Antiqua and
> competitor with Ancient Sites. If the predominant attitude
> is one of self-importance and the pleasure of imposing
> things on people, it will be deadly.
>
> And if we make a Nova Roma a place that knows how to
> care about every citizen, that listens to its conscience
> more than the macronations, that deals with conspicuous
> justness and fairness, that achieves order without
> bureacracy, and unites cives from the entire world, of all
> races and ages and sexual preferences in Concordia - then,
> and only then, will many people feel a real desire to
> sacrifice for Nova Roma, to make Her defence and Salus a
> matter of personal honour, and her growth and enrichment
> something to live for as the Senior Consul rightly wishes.
>
> My father had a favourate saying that is apt for this
> thesis, and should be engraved on the wall of our virtual
> Senate Chamber: "You can catch more flies with honey than
> with vinegar."
>
> Valete!
>
> --
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Scriba Censorius
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> ________________________________________________________
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Ancient Greek
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:20:16 -0400

(My deepest apologies to any Cato-the-Elder-types out there!)

I love that Nova Roma has so many citizens dedicated to Living Latin, but I am curious-are there many Ancient Greek scholars out there in the Nova Roman community? If so, I'd be interested to know for several reasons (one entirely selfish).

1. The connection between Latin and Ancient Greek is impossible to ignore-and lots of fun for etymology buffs!

2. I'm interested in how people feel about learning Greek after learning Latin or vice versa. What were the difficulties that people had? How did they overcome them? Are there any tips or tricks that people discovered?

3. I could always use a little homework help. "Conditional sentences with relative protases" irk me excessively.


Valete!
Lauria Maria


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A few artistic uploads in Graphics
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:50:40 -0500

Salve

> This is my first time uploading, so please let me know if they went
> through. They are just a few images of statuary, painting, frescoes,
> busts.

I had no problem seeing them. Thank you for posting them.

Vale
Fortunatus



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: From the Senior Consul
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:59:03 +0100

Salve Cai Mari

> Salvete Nicolaue Moravi et alii
>
> The vocative of Curio is Curio, by the way. I suspect that the vocative
> that I use for your praenomen is an unjustifiable innovation, but I can't
> bear to part with it. Oh well.
>
How Curius (sorry).

> I have to agree with Cornelia. Consider that odd phrase Senatus
Populusque
> Romanus The Senate and the people together, so together that they are one
> Roman thing. That is what we seek to be, one Res Publica guided by the
> Senate and the People. .

True enough, but I think we would do well to base our reconstructionist
political theory on sounder foundations than odd phrases which were redolent
of anachronism even in their own time. Nova Roma is not an historical
re-enactment, after all.

>And executive power to make the real laws, the
> leges, is not delegated anywhere -- it stays in the hands of the people

Amice, this is well in theory, but I can think of one salient, glaring,
current exception :-)
Not to denigrate your laudable attempts to make a silk purse out of that
sow's ear of an edictum,
but would not a plebiscite have been more consistent with your views as
stated here?

> How to handle finances and foreign affairs is the business of the Senate,
as
> is advising the people, through Senatus Consulta, on internal policies.

And yet our functioning Tribune reported that all he received from the
Senate on this matter, if I remember correctly, was a motley of personal
opinion. There was a vote: but no coherent advice to the people. Or did I
miss it?

> Of course, the senatores are cives, and in a mathematical sense, the
Senate
> is a subset of the People. But there's more to it than that.
>
> In an earlier post, I spoke of non-existent powers. I believe that the
> nature and context of Nova Roma really do preclude any coercive power, but
> the Senate, does, I believe have power, as do the People and their elected
> magistrates. I would say that we all have a variety of real powers to use
> in re-building Roma; but none of these powers can achieve coercion, and
> attempts to achieve it are a terrible waste of time and energy.

Ita sit! And thank you for your reasoned and courteous reply. It makes a
pleasant change from the responses I seem generally to be getting.

In amicitia,

Vado.



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Subject:	[novaroma] Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:29:16 +0100

Quiritibus salutem Feste excepto.

This is my final response to Festus' posts. He is not worth further
discourse.

I said:

> << If the Res Publica were not a democracy, it would be a Res Privata. Do
> please try to perceive the difference between representative democracies
> (like Britain, Roma Veta, the USA), and participative democracies (e.g.,
> Athens, Switzerland).>>

Festus replied:

> I'll remember that the next time you attempt to thwart the workings of the
> Republic in favor of some "participatory democracy", which you did when
you
> and your friends tried to get an excellent edict overturned, in the name
of
> "democracy".

I reply: I wanted, and I still want, a plebiscite on the edictum. This is
perfectly constitutional. Since feelings run so high on what is essentially
a civil liberties issue, I feel it should be put to the final arbitration of
the people, as is their constitutional right. What could be wrong with that?
Is Festus afraid the majority will disagree with him?

Some of my friends disagree with my position on the edictum. Some others,
who are not my friends, agree with my position on the edictum. We don't want
to 'thwart the system': we want to make its checks and balances work, that
they truly exist even, by actually using them. Festus should not have a
problem with that.

> Festus: Well, given history's example, Fascists and Nazi's got to power
via
> democracy. So, I think you should be concered about democracies, I on
the
> other hand prefer the checks and balances that are inherant in a Republic.

To blame the democracies of pre-war Germany and Italy (not Spain, note,
where the Fascists ignored the constitutional government and simply made war
on it) for the rise to power of the Fascisti and Nazis, is to find fault
with the body that has the disease, not with the organism that causes the
disease. This says much about Festus' analytical skills.

> The Republic spoken about in Polybius! With checks and balances that
blend
> the three primary systems of government. Monarchy, Oligarhical rule, and
> Mob rule.

Now if I had said that, Festus would have accused me of deliberately
misquoting to delude you, and of not telling you stuff I didn't want you to
see. Polybius (Histories, IV.4.2.4-6) writes:

"PARAPLESIOS OUDE DEMOKRATIAN, EN HE PAN PLETHOS KYRION ESTI POEIN HO TI
POT' AN AUTO BOLETHE KAI PROTHETAI. PARA D'HO PATRION ESTI KAI SYNETHES
THEOUS SEBESTHAI, GONEIS THERAPENEIN, PRESBYTEROUS AIDEISTHAI, NOMOIS
PEITHESTHAI, PARA TOIS TOIUTOIS SYSTEMASIN HOTAN TO TOIS PLEIOSI DOXAN NIKA,
TOUTO KALEIN DEI DEMOKRATIAN."

("Similarly, it is no true democracy in which the whole crowd of citizens is
free to do whatever they wish or purpose, but when, in a community where it
is traditional and customary to reverence the gods, honour our parents, to
respect our elders, and to obey the laws, and the will of the greater number
prevails, this is to be called a democracy.").

Polybius actually goes on to ennumerate five other basic forms of
government.
Check it out, and judge for yourselves who tells people the truth about
what.

Here's Festus again:

>It would be so good of you, Vado, to get your facts straight before typing
>such nonsense. The law did not victimize a "fellow citizen" because Maria
>was NOT a citizen!
>The edict did not "force upon Aurelianus the highly painful and distasteful
>necessity of choosing between personal honesty with loss of citizenship, or
>personal dishonesty and
>continued citizenship" because she had already resigned before the original
>edict was even issued!

>For the benefit of new citizens who were not around when this issue came
up,
>allow me to educate you so Vado's outright lies do not blind you. Maria
>Villarroel, aka Marius Fimbria, aka Marius Aurelianus, resigned her
>citizenship approximately one month before Censor Sulla issued the original
>'gender edict'.

I was sure I remembered (though perhaps I was wrong), that the original
edict WAS issued before Aurelianus resigned. If that were not so, then I
would be mistaken, and I would be left wondering why on earth Aurelianus DID
resign, if it wasn't over this gender thing. That does not, however, make me
a liar. Besides, Aurelianus would certainly be a citizen today if it were
not for that
edictum. That is a fact which Festus ignores, for reasons I won't even
bother to guess at.

This is the third time that Festus has employed insult against me on this
list in public debate, on this issue, rather than use reasoned argument. I
can live with that. I have come to expect no better from him. Insults from
such a man do more for my self-esteem than his good opinion ever could.

What I will NOT accept, however, is this:

>Look not to Brittania for the truth.

He can say what he will about me, but this is an undeserved slur on the
honour of my compatriots and fellow-citizens, and on the land of my birth,
and on the provincia of which I am honoured to be propraetor. Perhaps it was
meant to make me feel bad, in which case Festus has succeeded. I feel
sickened by it.

An apology is required - not for me, but for Britannia. I have nothing
further to say to Festus, on this or on anything else.

Bene valete tu Feste excepto,

Vado.






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