Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	Marius Aurelianus <aurelianus@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net

Salve, Moravi Vado Propraetor, et salvete omnes...

>Here's Festus again:
>
>> It would be so good of you, Vado, to get your facts straight before
>> typing such nonsense. The law did not victimize a "fellow citizen"
>> because Maria was NOT a citizen!
>> The edict did not "force upon Aurelianus the highly painful and
>> distasteful necessity of choosing between personal honesty with loss
>> of citizenship, or personal dishonesty and continued citizenship"
>> because she had already resigned before the original
>> edict was even issued!
>>
>> ...Maria Villarroel, aka Marius Fimbria, aka Marius Aurelianus,
>> resigned her citizenship approximately one month before Censor Sulla
>> issued the original 'gender edict'.

...et Vado:
> I was sure I remembered (though perhaps I was wrong), that the
> original edict WAS issued before Aurelianus resigned. If that were
> not so, then I would be mistaken, and I would be left wondering why
> on earth Aurelianus DID resign, if it wasn't over this gender thing.

I have been asked for clarification, and I shall provide it. The below
was originally posted to the List on 17 May, in a message entitled
'Gender Issue (Painless, I Promise!)'; this was my last comment on this
List, until today, on the subject:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There has been some question as to why I am even involving myself in
this issue, as I am no longer a Citizen (and indeed laid down my
Citizenship a month before the infamous Edict took effect). Simply
put, I asked to be stricken from the rolls after Sulla Censor denied my
request to have my Roman name changed from 'Lucia Maria' to 'Lucius
Marius' Fimbria for reasons of gender identity. Yet even in my
departure letter I made clear my intention to return as soon as it
became possible for me to do so as a male, and to remain involved with
Nova Roma to the greatest extent possible even in the meantime. I have
never lost faith in this organization and its mission, and shall not do
so.

The 'Gender Edict' itself is merely the public extension of the
Censor's ruling in my case, the solidification of private rule-of-thumb
into public policy. As such, it was not responsible for my departure;
however, it is the only thing on Nova Roma's end which might delay my
return. (On my end, there are a few projects and a bit of healing to
be completed before I will want to re-enter the fray.) >({|8-)

Does it make sense now...? I never wanted to be an ex-Citizen; but I
could not remain a Citizen as the situation then stood, so I backed out
until things could hopefully change for the better. As soon as I can
reapply without breaking any laws, I will. While the Edict stands, I
cannot do this; so I've fought the Edict.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'The Edict' in the above refers strictly to the original Gender Edict;
the Edictum Censoriale de Mutandis Nominibus has been a godsend, an
excellent policy that I hope the People will soon get the opportunity
to solidify into an excellent law. Negotiations for my return were
indeed making good progress until the unfortunate incident in the
Chatroom last week; now I am pretty sure I have blown my chances of a
ready welcome straight out of the water, even assuming I'd had such
chances beforehand.

In fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius [Fimbria] Aurelianus |>[SPQR]<|
<aurelianus@--------> |\=/|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
Historical Re-Creationist, `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
and Citizen of Rome ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
"Quae narravi, nullo modo negabo (That's | | / )\ \| /
my Story, and I'm sticking to it)" _|_| / _/_| /`(
-- Latin for All Occasions /./..=' /./..'

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:48:14 EDT

Nick Ford wrote:

> Quiritibus salutem Feste excepto.
>
> This is my final response to Festus' posts.

I will hold you to that promise!

> > << If the Res Publica were not a democracy, it would be a Res Privata. Do
> > please try to perceive the difference between representative democracies
> > (like Britain, Roma Veta, the USA), and participative democracies (e.g.,
> > Athens, Switzerland).>>
>
> Festus replied:
>
> > I'll remember that the next time you attempt to thwart the workings of the
> > Republic in favor of some "participatory democracy", which you did when
> you
> > and your friends tried to get an excellent edict overturned, in the name
> of
> > "democracy".
>
> I reply: I wanted, and I still want, a plebiscite on the edictum. This is
> perfectly constitutional. Since feelings run so high on what is essentially
> a civil liberties issue, I feel it should be put to the final arbitration of
> the people, as is their constitutional right. What could be wrong with that?
> Is Festus afraid the majority will disagree with him?
>

You want....I see.....well why dont you run for office if you think you can
do a
better job than Censor Sulla. Censor Sulla, is completely following due
process
via Nova Roma's Constitution by enacting the First and Second Edictum. By his
compromise with his colleague the new Edictum is very workable between all
sides. But, correct me if I am wrong Vado, there are no civil liberties in
NR?
I dont see any spelled out rights other than the ability to vote and
participate
in Nova Roma venues such as chat and the email list. Correct?

>
> Some of my friends disagree with my position on the edictum. Some others,
> who are not my friends, agree with my position on the edictum. We don't want
> to 'thwart the system': we want to make its checks and balances work, that
> they truly exist even, by actually using them. Festus should not have a
> problem with that.
>

And that works both sides. I do not see any need to make this issue more
devisive than it is. Both Censors worked hard on developing a compromise,
that
compromise is now law. The Checks and balances have worked in this Edictum,
here both Censors promulgated this new Edictum. No one vetoed it. The system
works! :)

>
> > Festus: Well, given history's example, Fascists and Nazi's got to power
> via
> > democracy. So, I think you should be concered about democracies, I on
> the
> > other hand prefer the checks and balances that are inherant in a Republic.
>
> To blame the democracies of pre-war Germany and Italy (not Spain, note,
> where the Fascists ignored the constitutional government and simply made war
> on it) for the rise to power of the Fascisti and Nazis, is to find fault
> with the body that has the disease, not with the organism that causes the
> disease. This says much about Festus' analytical skills.
>

You are making excuses. Thats what I see in the above paragraph.

>
> > The Republic spoken about in Polybius! With checks and balances that
> blend
> > the three primary systems of government. Monarchy, Oligarhical rule, and
> > Mob rule.
>
> Now if I had said that, Festus would have accused me of deliberately
> misquoting to delude you, and of not telling you stuff I didn't want you to
> see. Polybius (Histories, IV.4.2.4-6) writes:
>
> "PARAPLESIOS OUDE DEMOKRATIAN, EN HE PAN PLETHOS KYRION ESTI POEIN HO TI
> POT' AN AUTO BOLETHE KAI PROTHETAI. PARA D'HO PATRION ESTI KAI SYNETHES
> THEOUS SEBESTHAI, GONEIS THERAPENEIN, PRESBYTEROUS AIDEISTHAI, NOMOIS
> PEITHESTHAI, PARA TOIS TOIUTOIS SYSTEMASIN HOTAN TO TOIS PLEIOSI DOXAN NIKA,
> TOUTO KALEIN DEI DEMOKRATIAN."
>
> ("Similarly, it is no true democracy in which the whole crowd of citizens is
> free to do whatever they wish or purpose, but when, in a community where it
> is traditional and customary to reverence the gods, honour our parents, to
> respect our elders, and to obey the laws, and the will of the greater number
> prevails, this is to be called a democracy.").
>
> Polybius actually goes on to ennumerate five other basic forms of
> government.
> Check it out, and judge for yourselves who tells people the truth about
> what.
>

I think you need a reading lesson. I said PRIMARY. Nor did I quote Ploybius
word for word. Nevertheless, I do not see how your quote of Polybius changes
anything on my basic summary.

>
> Here's Festus again:
>
> >It would be so good of you, Vado, to get your facts straight before typing
> >such nonsense. The law did not victimize a "fellow citizen" because Maria
> >was NOT a citizen!
> >The edict did not "force upon Aurelianus the highly painful and distasteful
> >necessity of choosing between personal honesty with loss of citizenship, or
> >personal dishonesty and
> >continued citizenship" because she had already resigned before the original
> >edict was even issued!
>
> >For the benefit of new citizens who were not around when this issue came
> up,
> >allow me to educate you so Vado's outright lies do not blind you. Maria
> >Villarroel, aka Marius Fimbria, aka Marius Aurelianus, resigned her
> >citizenship approximately one month before Censor Sulla issued the original
> >'gender edict'.
>
> I was sure I remembered (though perhaps I was wrong), that the original
> edict WAS issued before Aurelianus resigned. If that were not so, then I
> would be mistaken, and I would be left wondering why on earth Aurelianus DID
> resign, if it wasn't over this gender thing. That does not, however, make me
> a liar. Besides, Aurelianus would certainly be a citizen today if it were
> not for that
> edictum. That is a fact which Festus ignores, for reasons I won't even
> bother to guess at.
>

Yes you were wrong, and this is not the first time you have made this error
and have been corrected on it. Thank you for finally admitting that! Maybe
you should
stop defending her and ask her why she initially resigned?

Gaius Lupinius Festus


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Subject:	[novaroma] CLEMENTIA
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:34:32 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Quiritibus, Censoribus et Senatui
Novae Romae S.P.D.

Censor L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:

Ave, Formosanus

My best advice to you, so that you can get a
better understanding of what has happened, is to go back to
the NR archieves, and read every post from March to the
Present. That would give you somewhat of a decent
understanding of what went on. And, it might balance your
point of view for both sides and not just one side as it
seems to be in the post below.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
_______________________________________
RESPONDEO:

I thank you for your measured and courteous response,
Sulla. I am happy to inform you that I lived through the
months from March onward and some months before, reading the
nuntia from Nova Roma avidly each day, and they are all on
my hard drive for instant reference. If my materials with
respect to your recent little brush up :-) with Aurelianus
are one sided, it is because we have not heard your side of
it from you. However, there is a reliable-looking report
from Senate circles posted on the RomanOutpost List, and I
have quite a lot of details from Aurelianus himself.

As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
is simple:

I. You have personal trouble with a transgendering
individual because you honestly believe that "A man is a man
and a woman a woman." In a rather limiting and
over-simplified sense.

II. Lucius Marius Aurelianus has discovered through
introspection and self-observation that he has a masculine
spiritual gender. He wishes to be treated on the basis of
that, his true core identity, in social relations.

III. You have constantly invoked precedent and Edicta to
thwart the official recognition of this man by the masculine
name that feels right to him. The situation caused by this
attitude on your part caused Marius (before the First Edict
formalised it) to leave as protest in a hope that by leaving
a place he loved so much and for which he had such a deep
affinity he could bring about a political change that would
allow him to come back in the dignity of having his true
identity as expressed in his name officially recognised.

I hope that everyone on both sides of the debate and in
the middle will recognise the above as a reasonably factual
treatment of the situation as it has evolved.

My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that
justice be done here. IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that
Nova Roma exists to further, as is AEQUITAS. And as I see
the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT our fellow
human beings. One's spirit and one's identity and one's
sexuality are all very private and intimate things, and they
are matters for us individually to decide according to our
most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to make
those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the
identity one knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.

But a fourth element is involved in this case:

IV. Due to the strong personal necessity felt by Marius to
have his name recognised, he presented his case strongly and
persistently, as was necessitated by the lack of
understanding or sympathy with people in his
bio-psychological situation. Sulla and perhaps others
interpreted this returning to the issue repeatedly after he
had said "no" as a lack of respect for his authority. Since
this "no" was based on a lack of understanding and sympathy,
not justice or wisdom, and since Marius had no other obvious
recourse, he continued to petition. This progressively
angered Sulla and some others, and especially in the case of
Sulla this has turned the matter into a contest of personal
wills instead of a normal moral/political/administrative
matter. The recent unfortunate mega-quarrel was a
continuation of this, and it appears to Marius and some
others that although he has been willing to follow the
procedures laid down in new name-change edictum of Sulla and
Merullus, Sulla will refuse to let the processing of the
application go ahead.

I asked Sulla personally about this, and he did not
reassure me as to his willingness to do treat this case
dispassionately and normally.

SULLA, when I first came to Nova Roma, it was you who
gave me that bit of honey in the form of cheerful help with
my citizenship application. And as your Scriba I have been
able to study your methods and their results and observe
from close hand your industry in the sevice of Nova Roma and
your commitment to Her. You are a true Romanus. For this
reason I was most willing to become your Scriba, and I have
not regretted it. I can learn a lot from you.

But in this one matter you have made a mistake, and it
has tarnished your image and impaired your true auctoritas.
It has earned resentment and suspicion for you among many in
our community, and more importantly, by this *inuria*
against this once-and-future citizen you have used your
offical powers to draw Nova Roma into *In*iustitia, and that
is a wrong against all who love either Iustitia and Nova
Roma - even against yourself.

Marius is willing to jump through all the hoops that you
have set up for people in his position to document
macronational identity. He is completely conformable to the
law of this land now.
*** I therefore publicly ask you to administer this process
promptly and dispassionately in the case of Lucius Marius
Aurelianus. And if that is difficult for you to do, then I
ask you to turn the case over to your colleague Gaius Marius
Merullus and simply approve his action. ***
This is obviously the right thing to do from both a legal
and ethical point of view. And if you do it even at this
rather late date, you will rise even higher in my estimation
as a Romanus and man of honour - and likewise in many, many
minds of less vocal but equally distressed cives among us.

Marius is not evil because the Gods have given him an
unusual nature. And he was not unreasonable to seek social
recognition under a name that matches his feeling of
identity. And he was not being un-Roman or a whiner or
trouble-maker in coming back again and again with his
request. He has always recognised the authority of the laws
and magistrates of Nova Roma, but his own dignitas and
self-respect have forced him to be persistent in demanding
Iustitia and Aequuitas from them. I am sure he never wanted
to have bad relations with our magistrates, but there are
some things in a person's life that are more important than
being popular with the powers-that be. Or there should be
some.

SENATUS ROMANUS: There is a legal process now in place for
persons such as L. Marius Aurelianus, and I submit to you
that he has a right to pursue this process without being
judged (for this is indeed a quasi-judicial proceeding)
before a judge (Censor) who has become a personal enemy and
gives signs of being unwilling to let the procedure be
carried through to a prompt and normal conclusion. In all
civilised states it is perceived that cases should be tried
by impartial and personally uninvolved judicial personnel.
It is a basic matter of procedural justice.

I have *implored* Censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix to
either process this case according to the criteria he laid
down before his most recent quarrel with L. Marius
Aurelianus, and to do so with all deliberate speed and in an
impartial manner. And I have beseeched him to turn the case
over to his colleague C. Marius Merullus if he does not feel
capable of doing so himself. And I note, despite the gentile
connection, Merullus has never tried to interfere in the
administration of this law as written, and can no doubt be
trusted to exercise more impartiality than Sulla, who has an
excessive emotional investment.

PATRES CONSCRIPTI, if my humble request to Censor Sulla for
simple justice for a fellow citizen is not honoured, then I
respectfully request you to use your general supervisory
powers to direct Censor Sulla to act or transfer the case to
his colleague, Censor Merullus, or in some other way such as
may please the Senate ensure that once-and-future citizen
Aurelianus might have his case processed promptly and
impartially under the laws of Nova Roma which now
specifically allow for such remedy.

Senatores, you have been in Nova Roma longer than I, and
it must be even more apparent to you from the greater
historical perspective that that affords you that there is a
lot of rough and tumble in Nova Roman politics. Loyalties
shift, friends and enemies change, people get angry and then
make up... But we are all Romani together, and despite the
frustrations and arguments, it means something to all of us
to be here and share Romanitas together. Marius has served
Nova Roma before and held responsibility here. Marius is as
Roman as any of us and has kept that Romanitas while away,
desiring only one thing: to return here to Nova Roma under
the name he regards as his own so that he can live in
dignitas as himself.

In any state of the U.S. and numerous other countries he
could have that name change - even to a name in masculine
form - for the asking at any local court. We claim that we
serve the virtues of Iustitia and Aequitas amd Libertas with
a unique emphasis here in Nova Roma. But I think we have in
this case already fallen behind most civilised macronations.
We owe it to the ideal of Nova Roma to do better at this.

And there is also in our repertoire CLEMENTIA. Let us be
guided by it as a Respublica and let an old soldier and old
Roman come home in dignity and peace.

Valete!


_________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Scriba Censorius
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CLEMENTIA
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:55:28 -0700

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:

> M. Apollonius Formosanus Quiritibus, Censoribus et Senatui
> Novae Romae S.P.D.
>
> Censor L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> Ave, Formosanus
>
> My best advice to you, so that you can get a
> better understanding of what has happened, is to go back to
> the NR archieves, and read every post from March to the
> Present. That would give you somewhat of a decent
> understanding of what went on. And, it might balance your
> point of view for both sides and not just one side as it
> seems to be in the post below.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
> _______________________________________
> RESPONDEO:
>
> I thank you for your measured and courteous response,
> Sulla. I am happy to inform you that I lived through the
> months from March onward and some months before, reading the
> nuntia from Nova Roma avidly each day, and they are all on
> my hard drive for instant reference. If my materials with
> respect to your recent little brush up :-) with Aurelianus
> are one sided, it is because we have not heard your side of
> it from you. However, there is a reliable-looking report
> from Senate circles posted on the RomanOutpost List, and I
> have quite a lot of details from Aurelianus himself.
>
> As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
> is simple:
>
> I. You have personal trouble with a transgendering
> individual because you honestly believe that "A man is a man
> and a woman a woman." In a rather limiting and
> over-simplified sense.
>

Actually no, I dont have an issue, as a citizen. Maria Villoreal has,
during her recent vacation came over and stayed in my apartment for 4 days.
She was one of my best friends. As a Magistrate of Nova Roma I do, given I
have to weigh the needs of the individual and the needs of the
organization. It was as THAT capacity I based my decision on. Upholding
precedent by my predecessors. So, you might want to try and find something
than a personal dislike since that isnt there.

>
> II. Lucius Marius Aurelianus has discovered through
> introspection and self-observation that he has a masculine
> spiritual gender. He wishes to be treated on the basis of
> that, his true core identity, in social relations.
>

There is an Edictum with execptions on the books in Nova Roma. With that in
mind, she should stop being a disruption in the Taverna (the chatroom) and
meet those execptions. Not harassing prospective citizens and newbies who
are then forced to complain to the Senate of Nova Roma to take action. A
Roman would follow the Roman Virtues in all areas and times even if they
feel they are being perscuted. And to me that would being being productive
and trying to take personal action and responsibility. In this case it
would mean using the Edictum, that she said she praised, and trying to
resolve her issue. To date that has not happened, nor has she submitted
information.

>
> III. You have constantly invoked precedent and Edicta to
> thwart the official recognition of this man by the masculine
> name that feels right to him. The situation caused by this
> attitude on your part caused Marius (before the First Edict
> formalised it) to leave as protest in a hope that by leaving
> a place he loved so much and for which he had such a deep
> affinity he could bring about a political change that would
> allow him to come back in the dignity of having his true
> identity as expressed in his name officially recognised.
>

Sorry, that is not my job. My job is to fulfill my duty to the State. As
Censor, I have to make decisions that BALANCE both the needs of the
individual and the needs of the State. My predecessors made the first
decision in regards to this. After serious investigation on my part, I
ruled on my own to uphold their precedent. Upon further comments from
individuals privately, and given upon the fact that this issue came up twice
already and was dealt with by 75% of the Censors of Nova Roma, there was an
obvious need. If you or anyone thinks they can do a better job, then I
challenge anyone, climb up the Cursus Honorum, hold every position that I
have held and then become Censor. Deal with the work that the position
requires.

>
> I hope that everyone on both sides of the debate and in
> the middle will recognise the above as a reasonably factual
> treatment of the situation as it has evolved.
>
> My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that
> justice be done here. IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that
> Nova Roma exists to further, as is AEQUITAS. And as I see
> the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT our fellow
> human beings. One's spirit and one's identity and one's
> sexuality are all very private and intimate things, and they
> are matters for us individually to decide according to our
> most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to make
> those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the
> identity one knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.
>

The Roman Virtures were upheld in this. By the side of the Censors when we
all have ruled in this. As I have noted above, there has to be a balance.
There now is a balance. Marius has to take initiative and to date she has
shown her disregard in the Taverna and as a result a number of citizens have
complained. I believe it would be more productive for Maria, if she was to
take action to remedy her situation, but again, she has not to date. She
has spoken to me on the phone and she has emailed Caius Marius Merullus to
find the easiest way back in, but still to date she has not presented any
information to remedy her situation. There is a saying that I believe is
important here, "Physician Heal Thyself." And while Maria is not a Physican
the saying still remains. She knows what she needs to do.

>

[SNIPPED]

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor



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Subject:	[novaroma] Ancient Greek!
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:11:18 +0200

Sextus Apollonius Draco Lauriae Mariae S.P.D.,

I am following Latin for 5 years now, and Greek for 4 years, so yes, there
are philhellenes out there (at least two, which includes my brother
Quintus).

"1. The connection between Latin and Ancient Greek is impossible to
ignore-and lots of fun for etymology buffs!"

I know ;-).

"2. I'm interested in how people feel about learning Greek after learning
Latin or vice versa. What were the difficulties that people had? How did
they overcome them? Are there any tips or tricks that people discovered?"

I find Greek harder than Latin, although I think that Latin is sometimes
clearer and more prosaic (not to mention humorous, something which Greeks
didn't seem to understand). However, in my personal opinion, Greek is more
poetic and artistic. My main problem with the language is not its grammar
but its vocabulary, that I always seem to forget.

"3. I could always use a little homework help. "Conditional sentences with
relative protases" irk me excessively."

If you have any questions, you can e-mail me privately (or someone else who
would be better at ancient Greek than me). I'd be happy to help a fellow
citizen!

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CLEMENTIA
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:19:59 -0600

Ohhhh......by the gods.....since we persist in this issue.

Why can't she just produce the paperwork that has been asked for? Maybe
because the price is greater than her desire to be identified as a male???

My understanding is that all she needs to do to be eligible for reinstated
citizenship as a man is change her legal gender has been changed to that of
a man, OR provide documentation of a name change to a masculine name, OR she
needs to be willing to be reinstated as a woman.

>> In any state of the U.S. and numerous other countries he
could have that name change - even to a name in masculine
form - for the asking at any local court. We claim that we
serve the virtues of Iustitia and Aequitas amd Libertas with
a unique emphasis here in Nova Roma. But I think we have in
this case already fallen behind most civilised macronations.
We owe it to the ideal of Nova Roma to do better at this.

Oh, is it really that simple???? Let's take a little tour of a few
country's legal policies on gender identification:

1. In New South Wales, Mari would be protected from transgender
discrimination at the hands of a social club, but only after having legally
changed her gender to male. Legally changing her gender would involve being
issued a new birth certificate. Being issued a new birth certificate would
involve gender alteration.

2. In Italy, Mari could ask to change her civil status to male, but only
after having undergone gender alteration.

3. The same is true in Turkey. Mari could only petition to change her
civil status, including changing her name, to male after having gender
altering surgery. In Article 29 of the Civil Code, it specifies that this
must be confirmed by a surgeon's report.

4. In Britain, pre-operative transsexuals can get driver's licenses and
passports issued with a changed gender, but even after surgery cannot get an
updated birth certificate.

5. In the United States, the issue is muddied by having to be in agreement
with both federal and state law, but it would be fairly easy but perhaps
expensive for Mari to get legal papers establishing a NAME change, through a
court order, according to the laws of her state. However, Mari ideally
needs to show proof of gender change, and again this is more difficult to
establish. She would have to initiate the process through changing her
gender with the social security branch of the government. As the Social
Security Office has no established procedure, Mari might have an easier
chance of it than in other countries. However, at the least, Mari would be
expected to show proof that she is a pre-operative transsexual under
doctor's supervision. After she obtained the social security card she could
obtain other forms of identification showing her changed gender.

I tried, and it was impossible to locate how other micronations treat gender
issues.

Hmmm......it looks like Nova Roma isn't alone in requiring citizens to
identify with their gender without substantial proof that the person is
serious about making a real gender change. If we want to be a social club
or a RPG, perhaps it shouldn't matter what gender people identify with.
However, I thought we wanted to be a serious micronation, not a RPG. And my
understanding is that Mari has no interest in surgical gender alteration.

Finally, ask yourself??? what would the ancient Romans have thought about
women wanting to pass themselves off as men, or vice versa?

L. Cornelia Aurelia




"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:

> M. Apollonius Formosanus Quiritibus, Censoribus et Senatui
> Novae Romae S.P.D.
>
> Censor L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
> Ave, Formosanus
>
> My best advice to you, so that you can get a
> better understanding of what has happened, is to go back to
> the NR archieves, and read every post from March to the
> Present. That would give you somewhat of a decent
> understanding of what went on. And, it might balance your
> point of view for both sides and not just one side as it
> seems to be in the post below.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
> _______________________________________
> RESPONDEO:
>
> I thank you for your measured and courteous response,
> Sulla. I am happy to inform you that I lived through the
> months from March onward and some months before, reading the
> nuntia from Nova Roma avidly each day, and they are all on
> my hard drive for instant reference. If my materials with
> respect to your recent little brush up :-) with Aurelianus
> are one sided, it is because we have not heard your side of
> it from you. However, there is a reliable-looking report
> from Senate circles posted on the RomanOutpost List, and I
> have quite a lot of details from Aurelianus himself.
>
> As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
> is simple:
>
> I. You have personal trouble with a transgendering
> individual because you honestly believe that "A man is a man
> and a woman a woman." In a rather limiting and
> over-simplified sense.
>
> II. Lucius Marius Aurelianus has discovered through
> introspection and self-observation that he has a masculine
> spiritual gender. He wishes to be treated on the basis of
> that, his true core identity, in social relations.
>
> III. You have constantly invoked precedent and Edicta to
> thwart the official recognition of this man by the masculine
> name that feels right to him. The situation caused by this
> attitude on your part caused Marius (before the First Edict
> formalised it) to leave as protest in a hope that by leaving
> a place he loved so much and for which he had such a deep
> affinity he could bring about a political change that would
> allow him to come back in the dignity of having his true
> identity as expressed in his name officially recognised.
>
> I hope that everyone on both sides of the debate and in
> the middle will recognise the above as a reasonably factual
> treatment of the situation as it has evolved.
>
> My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that
> justice be done here. IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that
> Nova Roma exists to further, as is AEQUITAS. And as I see
> the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT our fellow
> human beings. One's spirit and one's identity and one's
> sexuality are all very private and intimate things, and they
> are matters for us individually to decide according to our
> most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to make
> those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the
> identity one knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.
>
> But a fourth element is involved in this case:
>
> IV. Due to the strong personal necessity felt by Marius to
> have his name recognised, he presented his case strongly and
> persistently, as was necessitated by the lack of
> understanding or sympathy with people in his
> bio-psychological situation. Sulla and perhaps others
> interpreted this returning to the issue repeatedly after he
> had said "no" as a lack of respect for his authority. Since
> this "no" was based on a lack of understanding and sympathy,
> not justice or wisdom, and since Marius had no other obvious
> recourse, he continued to petition. This progressively
> angered Sulla and some others, and especially in the case of
> Sulla this has turned the matter into a contest of personal
> wills instead of a normal moral/political/administrative
> matter. The recent unfortunate mega-quarrel was a
> continuation of this, and it appears to Marius and some
> others that although he has been willing to follow the
> procedures laid down in new name-change edictum of Sulla and
> Merullus, Sulla will refuse to let the processing of the
> application go ahead.
>
> I asked Sulla personally about this, and he did not
> reassure me as to his willingness to do treat this case
> dispassionately and normally.
>
> SULLA, when I first came to Nova Roma, it was you who
> gave me that bit of honey in the form of cheerful help with
> my citizenship application. And as your Scriba I have been
> able to study your methods and their results and observe
> from close hand your industry in the sevice of Nova Roma and
> your commitment to Her. You are a true Romanus. For this
> reason I was most willing to become your Scriba, and I have
> not regretted it. I can learn a lot from you.
>
> But in this one matter you have made a mistake, and it
> has tarnished your image and impaired your true auctoritas.
> It has earned resentment and suspicion for you among many in
> our community, and more importantly, by this *inuria*
> against this once-and-future citizen you have used your
> offical powers to draw Nova Roma into *In*iustitia, and that
> is a wrong against all who love either Iustitia and Nova
> Roma - even against yourself.
>
> Marius is willing to jump through all the hoops that you
> have set up for people in his position to document
> macronational identity. He is completely conformable to the
> law of this land now.
> *** I therefore publicly ask you to administer this process
> promptly and dispassionately in the case of Lucius Marius
> Aurelianus. And if that is difficult for you to do, then I
> ask you to turn the case over to your colleague Gaius Marius
> Merullus and simply approve his action. ***
> This is obviously the right thing to do from both a legal
> and ethical point of view. And if you do it even at this
> rather late date, you will rise even higher in my estimation
> as a Romanus and man of honour - and likewise in many, many
> minds of less vocal but equally distressed cives among us.
>
> Marius is not evil because the Gods have given him an
> unusual nature. And he was not unreasonable to seek social
> recognition under a name that matches his feeling of
> identity. And he was not being un-Roman or a whiner or
> trouble-maker in coming back again and again with his
> request. He has always recognised the authority of the laws
> and magistrates of Nova Roma, but his own dignitas and
> self-respect have forced him to be persistent in demanding
> Iustitia and Aequuitas from them. I am sure he never wanted
> to have bad relations with our magistrates, but there are
> some things in a person's life that are more important than
> being popular with the powers-that be. Or there should be
> some.
>
> SENATUS ROMANUS: There is a legal process now in place for
> persons such as L. Marius Aurelianus, and I submit to you
> that he has a right to pursue this process without being
> judged (for this is indeed a quasi-judicial proceeding)
> before a judge (Censor) who has become a personal enemy and
> gives signs of being unwilling to let the procedure be
> carried through to a prompt and normal conclusion. In all
> civilised states it is perceived that cases should be tried
> by impartial and personally uninvolved judicial personnel.
> It is a basic matter of procedural justice.
>
> I have *implored* Censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix to
> either process this case according to the criteria he laid
> down before his most recent quarrel with L. Marius
> Aurelianus, and to do so with all deliberate speed and in an
> impartial manner. And I have beseeched him to turn the case
> over to his colleague C. Marius Merullus if he does not feel
> capable of doing so himself. And I note, despite the gentile
> connection, Merullus has never tried to interfere in the
> administration of this law as written, and can no doubt be
> trusted to exercise more impartiality than Sulla, who has an
> excessive emotional investment.
>
> PATRES CONSCRIPTI, if my humble request to Censor Sulla for
> simple justice for a fellow citizen is not honoured, then I
> respectfully request you to use your general supervisory
> powers to direct Censor Sulla to act or transfer the case to
> his colleague, Censor Merullus, or in some other way such as
> may please the Senate ensure that once-and-future citizen
> Aurelianus might have his case processed promptly and
> impartially under the laws of Nova Roma which now
> specifically allow for such remedy.
>
> Senatores, you have been in Nova Roma longer than I, and
> it must be even more apparent to you from the greater
> historical perspective that that affords you that there is a
> lot of rough and tumble in Nova Roman politics. Loyalties
> shift, friends and enemies change, people get angry and then
> make up... But we are all Romani together, and despite the
> frustrations and arguments, it means something to all of us
> to be here and share Romanitas together. Marius has served
> Nova Roma before and held responsibility here. Marius is as
> Roman as any of us and has kept that Romanitas while away,
> desiring only one thing: to return here to Nova Roma under
> the name he regards as his own so that he can live in
> dignitas as himself.
>
> In any state of the U.S. and numerous other countries he
> could have that name change - even to a name in masculine
> form - for the asking at any local court. We claim that we
> serve the virtues of Iustitia and Aequitas amd Libertas with
> a unique emphasis here in Nova Roma. But I think we have in
> this case already fallen behind most civilised macronations.
> We owe it to the ideal of Nova Roma to do better at this.
>
> And there is also in our repertoire CLEMENTIA. Let us be
> guided by it as a Respublica and let an old soldier and old
> Roman come home in dignity and peace.
>
> Valete!
>
> _________________________________
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Scriba Censorius
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> ________________________________________________________
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Claudius=20Nigellus?= <app_cl_lucentius_nigellus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:08:40 +0100 (BST)

Salvete omnes

My last post to this list was in December to
congratulate my fellow candidates in the Praetorship
elections on a good race and to forward my best wishes
to the winners. Shortly thereafter I was approached
by Consul Audens to become one of his apparitores. I
feel it can lessen the value of impartial counsel for
an Advisor to engage in heated public debate on
contentious issues. I also feel honour bound as a good
Roman, while discharging my duty to a senior official,
not to take up public arguments which may undermine
that offical’s position within Nova Roma. My personal
sense of Dignitas, Honestas and Pietas would not allow
otherwise. Accordingly, although a daily reader of
this list I have held my peace and refrained from
comment upon it. Until today.

Like many, I have been following this increasingly
acrimonious exchange with a an all-too-familiar sense
that the Main List was descending, yet again, to the
level of personal invective in lieu of reasoned
argument. In keeping with my statements above, I have
no intention, nor do I see any productive outcome, in
adding another voice to the arguments surrounding
Aurelianus and the Genders Wars. Neither do I intend
to act as an apologist for, or defender of, Vado as he
is capable of doing so himself off-list. Similary, if
Festus is handicapped by an incapacity to construct a
coherent argument or engage in mature debate without
recourse to rudeness or personal insult, then
Clementia bids me comment no further on this
disability.

No, cives, what I do wish to comment upon is the
following extract from Vado and Festus’ exchanges.

Scripsit Festus:
>Look not to Brittania for the truth.

Respondit Vado:
>He can say what he will about me, but this is an
undeserved slur on the
>honour of my compatriots and fellow-citizens, and on
the land of my
>birth, and on the provincia of which I am honoured to
be propraetor. Perhaps
>it was meant to make me feel bad, in which case
Festus has succeeded. I feel
>sickened by it.

>An apology is required - not for me, but for
Britannia. I have nothing
>further to say to Festus, on this or on anything
else.

It is sweeping, facile generalisations about people,
races or nations like Festus' statement above which
provide the dark foundations of racism in our world
and which, if left unchecked or unchallenged, grow and
gain an aura of legitimacy. Having been given an
opportunity to moderate this unfortunate remark,
Festus chose to rebut every point of Vado’s post
except this last, which he completely ignored.

If, for example, Festus had written “Look not to Jews
for the truth” or Vado written “Look not to America
for the truth”, I am confident we would have needed a
stopwatch to time the interval before a firestorm of
invective counter-argument, rebuttal and censure
erupted. It saddens me, therefore, that no one
outside Britannia has seen fit to defend its defamed
Citizens.

I am sure, Sulla, that you, quite rightly, would have
been at the head of a very long queue in opposition to
the first of my hypothetical examples, so why your
silence now? It surely cannot be that you fail to
criticize Festus because you happen to be on his side
of the Aurelianus debate, for, as you have taken great
pains to point out in recent posts, you place personal
considerations secondary in your service to Nova Roma
as Censor. I trust it is simply the volume of your
other duties that has precluded you formulating an
appropriate response.

I bid you delay no further and I urge you, your fellow
Senators and other senior magistrates with a wider
responsibility to protect the integrity of Nova Roma,
to discharge your duty and call upon this Citizen,
offending the public virtues of Aequitas and Concordia
by unfairly branding an entire provincia as untruthful
and disrupting the harmony of Nova Roma by his public
proclamations thereto in this Forum, to recant such
defamation and apologize in an equally public manner.

Valete

Appius Claudius Lucentius Nigellus
Legatus Cymricae Mediaeque
Provincia Britanniae



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 02:31:11 -0700

> It is sweeping, facile generalisations about people,
> races or nations like Festus' statement above which
> provide the dark foundations of racism in our world
> and which, if left unchecked or unchallenged, grow and
> gain an aura of legitimacy. Having been given an
> opportunity to moderate this unfortunate remark,
> Festus chose to rebut every point of Vado’s post
> except this last, which he completely ignored.
>
> If, for example, Festus had written “Look not to Jews
> for the truth” or Vado written “Look not to America
> for the truth”, I am confident we would have needed a
> stopwatch to time the interval before a firestorm of
> invective counter-argument, rebuttal and censure
> erupted. It saddens me, therefore, that no one
> outside Britannia has seen fit to defend its defamed
> Citizens.
>
> I am sure, Sulla, that you, quite rightly, would have
> been at the head of a very long queue in opposition to
> the first of my hypothetical examples, so why your
> silence now? It surely cannot be that you fail to
> criticize Festus because you happen to be on his side
> of the Aurelianus debate, for, as you have taken great
> pains to point out in recent posts, you place personal
> considerations secondary in your service to Nova Roma
> as Censor. I trust it is simply the volume of your
> other duties that has precluded you formulating an
> appropriate response.
>

Ave, since you have addressed me directly, I will be happy to respond. I
believed that his comment was referring to the Governor of Britannia, and as
the Governor of Britiannia he was speaking for the Provincia.. I agree with
you, Appius Claudius, he should not have made his sweeping generalization.
Instead his sweeping Generalization should have been narrowed to just the
Governor of Britianna. :) And, I believe that through our conversations on
AIM, he assured me that that is what he meant. I think Vado is wrong and
has misled Nova Roma a number of times and this is one of those times.
Another one was that article that Festus was able to look at and give the
complete article for the examination of our citizens.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix



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Subject:	[novaroma] DEMENTIA
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:19:02 EDT

Salvete,

This is to complain about the injustice I have suffered at the hands of
Censor Sulla.

This is little known to the population at large, as it is an issue I
have kept private. I do not identify myself with humanity. I am a
trans-ontologized person. While having the physical form of a man, I am, in
fact, a God. Specifically, I am an incarnation of Pan-Min, a hybrid of the
Greek deity and the Egyptian, being as I am a God of Joy in a perpetual state
of massive erection. I accordingly asked Sulla for a name change which would
allow me to incorporate the names of these deities and that I be allowed my
own cult within Nova Roma, with a Priestess appointed to tend to My rites. I
ask the State nothing other than giving Me my due in this matter!

As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
is simple:

I. You have personal trouble with a trans-ontologized
individual because you honestly believe that "A human is a human and a God is
a God" in a rather limiting and over-simplified sense.

2. I, Gaius Lupinius Festus The Divine Pan-Min have discovered through
introspection and self-observation that I has a Divine nature. I wish to be
treated on the basis of that, My true core identity, in social relations.

3. Sulla has constantly threatened to invoke precedent and Edicta to
thwart the official recognition of My Godhood man by the Divine Name which
feels appropriate to me. All he does is blather about "blasphemy of the
gods" and such, which is really irritating, since I do not feel blasphemed at
all. The real blasphemy, in My Divine opinion, is that NOT to allow my name
change and official cult is blaspheming against moi.

4. My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that justice be done here.
IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that Nova Roma exists to further, as is
AEQUITAS. And as I see
the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT Gods such as I. One's spirit and
one's identity and one's ontological self-understanding are all very private
and intimate things, and they are matters for us individually to decide
according to our most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to make
those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the identity one
knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.

Instead, what did Sulla do? He said if I could produce documentation that a
macronation recognized me as a God, he would treat me as an an exception and
allow me my name change, as well as petition the College of Pontiffs to
organize My Cult. He also said he would petition the Senate to bestow the
Divine Worship which is my due on another Trans-Ontologized person of old
Rome, Caligula.

This is unfair. I see myself as a God and that should be enough for him and
the Senate and the College. When a God says 'jump', the only thing they need
to do is ask 'how high, divinity?'.

The Divine Gaius Lupinius Festus Pan-Min






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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:33:24 +0100

Feste

With this posting you're finished! You are blasphemating the Gods your Rome.
You, silly human creature are trying to rob the dignity of the Gods! You are
cursed! You are from now on SACER to me, and I shall despise you as the most
humble and disgraced creature on Earth. You are nothing but a frustrated
Lemur doomed to haunt the living forever as no God will ever accept you in
His home.

Antonius Gryllus Graecus




-----Original Message-----
From: Lykaion1@-------- <Lykaion1@-------->
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Terga-feira, 18 de Julho de 2000 12:19
Subject: [novaroma] DEMENTIA


>Salvete,
>
> This is to complain about the injustice I have suffered at the hands
of
>Censor Sulla.
>
> This is little known to the population at large, as it is an issue I
>have kept private. I do not identify myself with humanity. I am a
>trans-ontologized person. While having the physical form of a man, I am,
in
>fact, a God. Specifically, I am an incarnation of Pan-Min, a hybrid of the
>Greek deity and the Egyptian, being as I am a God of Joy in a perpetual
state
>of massive erection. I accordingly asked Sulla for a name change which
would
>allow me to incorporate the names of these deities and that I be allowed my
>own cult within Nova Roma, with a Priestess appointed to tend to My rites.
I
>ask the State nothing other than giving Me my due in this matter!
>
> As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
> is simple:
>
> I. You have personal trouble with a trans-ontologized
>individual because you honestly believe that "A human is a human and a God
is
>a God" in a rather limiting and over-simplified sense.
>
>2. I, Gaius Lupinius Festus The Divine Pan-Min have discovered through
> introspection and self-observation that I has a Divine nature. I wish to
be
>treated on the basis of that, My true core identity, in social relations.
>
>3. Sulla has constantly threatened to invoke precedent and Edicta to
> thwart the official recognition of My Godhood man by the Divine Name which
>feels appropriate to me. All he does is blather about "blasphemy of the
>gods" and such, which is really irritating, since I do not feel blasphemed
at
>all. The real blasphemy, in My Divine opinion, is that NOT to allow my
name
>change and official cult is blaspheming against moi.
>
>4. My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that justice be done
here.
>IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that Nova Roma exists to further, as is
>AEQUITAS. And as I see
>the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT Gods such as I. One's spirit
and
>one's identity and one's ontological self-understanding are all very
private
>and intimate things, and they are matters for us individually to decide
>according to our most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to
make
>those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the identity one
>knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.
>
>Instead, what did Sulla do? He said if I could produce documentation that
a
>macronation recognized me as a God, he would treat me as an an exception
and
>allow me my name change, as well as petition the College of Pontiffs to
>organize My Cult. He also said he would petition the Senate to bestow the
>Divine Worship which is my due on another Trans-Ontologized person of old
>Rome, Caligula.
>
>This is unfair. I see myself as a God and that should be enough for him
and
>the Senate and the College. When a God says 'jump', the only thing they
need
>to do is ask 'how high, divinity?'.
>
> The Divine Gaius Lupinius Festus Pan-Min
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:39:21 EDT

In a message dated 7/18/00 7:18:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
alexious@-------- writes:

<< I
believed that his comment was referring to the Governor of Britannia, and as
the Governor of Britiannia he was speaking for the Provincia.. I agree with
you, Appius Claudius, he should not have made his sweeping generalization.
Instead his sweeping Generalization should have been narrowed to just the
Governor of Britianna. :) >>

Yes, exactly. I had thought the context of my note would make that clear.
But if not, then I will state that the sentence "look not to Brittania" for
the truth refers to it's governor.

Gaius Lupinius Festus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:46:54 EDT

Graecus,

Please read CLEMENCIA, the post by Formosanus, and then re-read mine.
Mine is a satire of his and of this whole "issue", and has nothing to do with
the gods.

GL Festus


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CLEMENTIA
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:23:47 EDT

Salve,

For what it's worth dosent this open up NR (a legal corporation in the US,
right) to a discrimination suit?? I personally don't care one way or the
other what this person is called, but I just would hate to see us drawn into
court over this, and worse loose (which I think we would)

A. Tiberius


>From: <gmvick32@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] CLEMENTIA
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:19:59 -0600
>
>Ohhhh......by the gods.....since we persist in this issue.
>
>Why can't she just produce the paperwork that has been asked for? Maybe
>because the price is greater than her desire to be identified as a male???
>
>My understanding is that all she needs to do to be eligible for reinstated
>citizenship as a man is change her legal gender has been changed to that of
>a man, OR provide documentation of a name change to a masculine name, OR
>she
>needs to be willing to be reinstated as a woman.
>
> >> In any state of the U.S. and numerous other countries he
>could have that name change - even to a name in masculine
>form - for the asking at any local court. We claim that we
>serve the virtues of Iustitia and Aequitas amd Libertas with
>a unique emphasis here in Nova Roma. But I think we have in
>this case already fallen behind most civilised macronations.
>We owe it to the ideal of Nova Roma to do better at this.
>
>Oh, is it really that simple???? Let's take a little tour of a few
>country's legal policies on gender identification:
>
>1. In New South Wales, Mari would be protected from transgender
>discrimination at the hands of a social club, but only after having legally
>changed her gender to male. Legally changing her gender would involve
>being
>issued a new birth certificate. Being issued a new birth certificate would
>involve gender alteration.
>
>2. In Italy, Mari could ask to change her civil status to male, but only
>after having undergone gender alteration.
>
>3. The same is true in Turkey. Mari could only petition to change her
>civil status, including changing her name, to male after having gender
>altering surgery. In Article 29 of the Civil Code, it specifies that this
>must be confirmed by a surgeon's report.
>
>4. In Britain, pre-operative transsexuals can get driver's licenses and
>passports issued with a changed gender, but even after surgery cannot get
>an
>updated birth certificate.
>
>5. In the United States, the issue is muddied by having to be in agreement
>with both federal and state law, but it would be fairly easy but perhaps
>expensive for Mari to get legal papers establishing a NAME change, through
>a
>court order, according to the laws of her state. However, Mari ideally
>needs to show proof of gender change, and again this is more difficult to
>establish. She would have to initiate the process through changing her
>gender with the social security branch of the government. As the Social
>Security Office has no established procedure, Mari might have an easier
>chance of it than in other countries. However, at the least, Mari would be
>expected to show proof that she is a pre-operative transsexual under
>doctor's supervision. After she obtained the social security card she
>could
>obtain other forms of identification showing her changed gender.
>
>I tried, and it was impossible to locate how other micronations treat
>gender
>issues.
>
>Hmmm......it looks like Nova Roma isn't alone in requiring citizens to
>identify with their gender without substantial proof that the person is
>serious about making a real gender change. If we want to be a social club
>or a RPG, perhaps it shouldn't matter what gender people identify with.
>However, I thought we wanted to be a serious micronation, not a RPG. And
>my
>understanding is that Mari has no interest in surgical gender alteration.
>
>Finally, ask yourself??? what would the ancient Romans have thought about
>women wanting to pass themselves off as men, or vice versa?
>
>L. Cornelia Aurelia
>
>
>
>
>"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:
>
> > M. Apollonius Formosanus Quiritibus, Censoribus et Senatui
> > Novae Romae S.P.D.
> >
> > Censor L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> >
> > Ave, Formosanus
> >
> > My best advice to you, so that you can get a
> > better understanding of what has happened, is to go back to
> > the NR archieves, and read every post from March to the
> > Present. That would give you somewhat of a decent
> > understanding of what went on. And, it might balance your
> > point of view for both sides and not just one side as it
> > seems to be in the post below.
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor
> > _______________________________________
> > RESPONDEO:
> >
> > I thank you for your measured and courteous response,
> > Sulla. I am happy to inform you that I lived through the
> > months from March onward and some months before, reading the
> > nuntia from Nova Roma avidly each day, and they are all on
> > my hard drive for instant reference. If my materials with
> > respect to your recent little brush up :-) with Aurelianus
> > are one sided, it is because we have not heard your side of
> > it from you. However, there is a reliable-looking report
> > from Senate circles posted on the RomanOutpost List, and I
> > have quite a lot of details from Aurelianus himself.
> >
> > As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
> > is simple:
> >
> > I. You have personal trouble with a transgendering
> > individual because you honestly believe that "A man is a man
> > and a woman a woman." In a rather limiting and
> > over-simplified sense.
> >
> > II. Lucius Marius Aurelianus has discovered through
> > introspection and self-observation that he has a masculine
> > spiritual gender. He wishes to be treated on the basis of
> > that, his true core identity, in social relations.
> >
> > III. You have constantly invoked precedent and Edicta to
> > thwart the official recognition of this man by the masculine
> > name that feels right to him. The situation caused by this
> > attitude on your part caused Marius (before the First Edict
> > formalised it) to leave as protest in a hope that by leaving
> > a place he loved so much and for which he had such a deep
> > affinity he could bring about a political change that would
> > allow him to come back in the dignity of having his true
> > identity as expressed in his name officially recognised.
> >
> > I hope that everyone on both sides of the debate and in
> > the middle will recognise the above as a reasonably factual
> > treatment of the situation as it has evolved.
> >
> > My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that
> > justice be done here. IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that
> > Nova Roma exists to further, as is AEQUITAS. And as I see
> > the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT our fellow
> > human beings. One's spirit and one's identity and one's
> > sexuality are all very private and intimate things, and they
> > are matters for us individually to decide according to our
> > most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to make
> > those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the
> > identity one knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.
> >
> > But a fourth element is involved in this case:
> >
> > IV. Due to the strong personal necessity felt by Marius to
> > have his name recognised, he presented his case strongly and
> > persistently, as was necessitated by the lack of
> > understanding or sympathy with people in his
> > bio-psychological situation. Sulla and perhaps others
> > interpreted this returning to the issue repeatedly after he
> > had said "no" as a lack of respect for his authority. Since
> > this "no" was based on a lack of understanding and sympathy,
> > not justice or wisdom, and since Marius had no other obvious
> > recourse, he continued to petition. This progressively
> > angered Sulla and some others, and especially in the case of
> > Sulla this has turned the matter into a contest of personal
> > wills instead of a normal moral/political/administrative
> > matter. The recent unfortunate mega-quarrel was a
> > continuation of this, and it appears to Marius and some
> > others that although he has been willing to follow the
> > procedures laid down in new name-change edictum of Sulla and
> > Merullus, Sulla will refuse to let the processing of the
> > application go ahead.
> >
> > I asked Sulla personally about this, and he did not
> > reassure me as to his willingness to do treat this case
> > dispassionately and normally.
> >
> > SULLA, when I first came to Nova Roma, it was you who
> > gave me that bit of honey in the form of cheerful help with
> > my citizenship application. And as your Scriba I have been
> > able to study your methods and their results and observe
> > from close hand your industry in the sevice of Nova Roma and
> > your commitment to Her. You are a true Romanus. For this
> > reason I was most willing to become your Scriba, and I have
> > not regretted it. I can learn a lot from you.
> >
> > But in this one matter you have made a mistake, and it
> > has tarnished your image and impaired your true auctoritas.
> > It has earned resentment and suspicion for you among many in
> > our community, and more importantly, by this *inuria*
> > against this once-and-future citizen you have used your
> > offical powers to draw Nova Roma into *In*iustitia, and that
> > is a wrong against all who love either Iustitia and Nova
> > Roma - even against yourself.
> >
> > Marius is willing to jump through all the hoops that you
> > have set up for people in his position to document
> > macronational identity. He is completely conformable to the
> > law of this land now.
> > *** I therefore publicly ask you to administer this process
> > promptly and dispassionately in the case of Lucius Marius
> > Aurelianus. And if that is difficult for you to do, then I
> > ask you to turn the case over to your colleague Gaius Marius
> > Merullus and simply approve his action. ***
> > This is obviously the right thing to do from both a legal
> > and ethical point of view. And if you do it even at this
> > rather late date, you will rise even higher in my estimation
> > as a Romanus and man of honour - and likewise in many, many
> > minds of less vocal but equally distressed cives among us.
> >
> > Marius is not evil because the Gods have given him an
> > unusual nature. And he was not unreasonable to seek social
> > recognition under a name that matches his feeling of
> > identity. And he was not being un-Roman or a whiner or
> > trouble-maker in coming back again and again with his
> > request. He has always recognised the authority of the laws
> > and magistrates of Nova Roma, but his own dignitas and
> > self-respect have forced him to be persistent in demanding
> > Iustitia and Aequuitas from them. I am sure he never wanted
> > to have bad relations with our magistrates, but there are
> > some things in a person's life that are more important than
> > being popular with the powers-that be. Or there should be
> > some.
> >
> > SENATUS ROMANUS: There is a legal process now in place for
> > persons such as L. Marius Aurelianus, and I submit to you
> > that he has a right to pursue this process without being
> > judged (for this is indeed a quasi-judicial proceeding)
> > before a judge (Censor) who has become a personal enemy and
> > gives signs of being unwilling to let the procedure be
> > carried through to a prompt and normal conclusion. In all
> > civilised states it is perceived that cases should be tried
> > by impartial and personally uninvolved judicial personnel.
> > It is a basic matter of procedural justice.
> >
> > I have *implored* Censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix to
> > either process this case according to the criteria he laid
> > down before his most recent quarrel with L. Marius
> > Aurelianus, and to do so with all deliberate speed and in an
> > impartial manner. And I have beseeched him to turn the case
> > over to his colleague C. Marius Merullus if he does not feel
> > capable of doing so himself. And I note, despite the gentile
> > connection, Merullus has never tried to interfere in the
> > administration of this law as written, and can no doubt be
> > trusted to exercise more impartiality than Sulla, who has an
> > excessive emotional investment.
> >
> > PATRES CONSCRIPTI, if my humble request to Censor Sulla for
> > simple justice for a fellow citizen is not honoured, then I
> > respectfully request you to use your general supervisory
> > powers to direct Censor Sulla to act or transfer the case to
> > his colleague, Censor Merullus, or in some other way such as
> > may please the Senate ensure that once-and-future citizen
> > Aurelianus might have his case processed promptly and
> > impartially under the laws of Nova Roma which now
> > specifically allow for such remedy.
> >
> > Senatores, you have been in Nova Roma longer than I, and
> > it must be even more apparent to you from the greater
> > historical perspective that that affords you that there is a
> > lot of rough and tumble in Nova Roman politics. Loyalties
> > shift, friends and enemies change, people get angry and then
> > make up... But we are all Romani together, and despite the
> > frustrations and arguments, it means something to all of us
> > to be here and share Romanitas together. Marius has served
> > Nova Roma before and held responsibility here. Marius is as
> > Roman as any of us and has kept that Romanitas while away,
> > desiring only one thing: to return here to Nova Roma under
> > the name he regards as his own so that he can live in
> > dignitas as himself.
> >
> > In any state of the U.S. and numerous other countries he
> > could have that name change - even to a name in masculine
> > form - for the asking at any local court. We claim that we
> > serve the virtues of Iustitia and Aequitas amd Libertas with
> > a unique emphasis here in Nova Roma. But I think we have in
> > this case already fallen behind most civilised macronations.
> > We owe it to the ideal of Nova Roma to do better at this.
> >
> > And there is also in our repertoire CLEMENTIA. Let us be
> > guided by it as a Respublica and let an old soldier and old
> > Roman come home in dignity and peace.
> >
> > Valete!
> >
> > _________________________________
> > Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> > Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> > Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> > Scriba Censorius
> > Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> > ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
> > http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> > The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> > AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
> > ________________________________________________________
> >
> > Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> > [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> > ________________________________________________________
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!
> > 1. Fill in the brief application
> > 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds
> > 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/6628/8/_/61050/_/963902118/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CLEMENTIA
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:40:25 -0700

No, it does not....becuase there is no discrimination, she can easily apply for
citizenship today and would be approved if she returned to the status quo that
she lived with for 2 years. However, if she wants to change her status, she
needs to comply with the published Censor Edictum. Again, Maria knows exactly
what she needs to do to come in on her own terms. Til she does so, she should
act like a Roman, and follow the Roman Virtues, and stop being a disruption in
the Taverna.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Aurelius Tiberius wrote:

> Salve,
>
> For what it's worth dosent this open up NR (a legal corporation in the US,
> right) to a discrimination suit?? I personally don't care one way or the
> other what this person is called, but I just would hate to see us drawn into
> court over this, and worse loose (which I think we would)
>
> A. Tiberius
>
> >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> >Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> >To: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] CLEMENTIA
> >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:19:59 -0600
> >
> >Ohhhh......by the gods.....since we persist in this issue.
> >
> >Why can't she just produce the paperwork that has been asked for? Maybe
> >because the price is greater than her desire to be identified as a male???
> >
> >My understanding is that all she needs to do to be eligible for reinstated
> >citizenship as a man is change her legal gender has been changed to that of
> >a man, OR provide documentation of a name change to a masculine name, OR
> >she
> >needs to be willing to be reinstated as a woman.
> >
> > >> In any state of the U.S. and numerous other countries he
> >could have that name change - even to a name in masculine
> >form - for the asking at any local court. We claim that we
> >serve the virtues of Iustitia and Aequitas amd Libertas with
> >a unique emphasis here in Nova Roma. But I think we have in
> >this case already fallen behind most civilised macronations.
> >We owe it to the ideal of Nova Roma to do better at this.
> >
> >Oh, is it really that simple???? Let's take a little tour of a few
> >country's legal policies on gender identification:
> >
> >1. In New South Wales, Mari would be protected from transgender
> >discrimination at the hands of a social club, but only after having legally
> >changed her gender to male. Legally changing her gender would involve
> >being
> >issued a new birth certificate. Being issued a new birth certificate would
> >involve gender alteration.
> >
> >2. In Italy, Mari could ask to change her civil status to male, but only
> >after having undergone gender alteration.
> >
> >3. The same is true in Turkey. Mari could only petition to change her
> >civil status, including changing her name, to male after having gender
> >altering surgery. In Article 29 of the Civil Code, it specifies that this
> >must be confirmed by a surgeon's report.
> >
> >4. In Britain, pre-operative transsexuals can get driver's licenses and
> >passports issued with a changed gender, but even after surgery cannot get
> >an
> >updated birth certificate.
> >
> >5. In the United States, the issue is muddied by having to be in agreement
> >with both federal and state law, but it would be fairly easy but perhaps
> >expensive for Mari to get legal papers establishing a NAME change, through
> >a
> >court order, according to the laws of her state. However, Mari ideally
> >needs to show proof of gender change, and again this is more difficult to
> >establish. She would have to initiate the process through changing her
> >gender with the social security branch of the government. As the Social
> >Security Office has no established procedure, Mari might have an easier
> >chance of it than in other countries. However, at the least, Mari would be
> >expected to show proof that she is a pre-operative transsexual under
> >doctor's supervision. After she obtained the social security card she
> >could
> >obtain other forms of identification showing her changed gender.
> >
> >I tried, and it was impossible to locate how other micronations treat
> >gender
> >issues.
> >
> >Hmmm......it looks like Nova Roma isn't alone in requiring citizens to
> >identify with their gender without substantial proof that the person is
> >serious about making a real gender change. If we want to be a social club
> >or a RPG, perhaps it shouldn't matter what gender people identify with.
> >However, I thought we wanted to be a serious micronation, not a RPG. And
> >my
> >understanding is that Mari has no interest in surgical gender alteration.
> >
> >Finally, ask yourself??? what would the ancient Romans have thought about
> >women wanting to pass themselves off as men, or vice versa?
> >
> >L. Cornelia Aurelia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:
> >
> > > M. Apollonius Formosanus Quiritibus, Censoribus et Senatui
> > > Novae Romae S.P.D.
> > >
> > > Censor L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
> > >
> > > Ave, Formosanus
> > >
> > > My best advice to you, so that you can get a
> > > better understanding of what has happened, is to go back to
> > > the NR archieves, and read every post from March to the
> > > Present. That would give you somewhat of a decent
> > > understanding of what went on. And, it might balance your
> > > point of view for both sides and not just one side as it
> > > seems to be in the post below.
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > Censor
> > > _______________________________________
> > > RESPONDEO:
> > >
> > > I thank you for your measured and courteous response,
> > > Sulla. I am happy to inform you that I lived through the
> > > months from March onward and some months before, reading the
> > > nuntia from Nova Roma avidly each day, and they are all on
> > > my hard drive for instant reference. If my materials with
> > > respect to your recent little brush up :-) with Aurelianus
> > > are one sided, it is because we have not heard your side of
> > > it from you. However, there is a reliable-looking report
> > > from Senate circles posted on the RomanOutpost List, and I
> > > have quite a lot of details from Aurelianus himself.
> > >
> > > As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
> > > is simple:
> > >
> > > I. You have personal trouble with a transgendering
> > > individual because you honestly believe that "A man is a man
> > > and a woman a woman." In a rather limiting and
> > > over-simplified sense.
> > >
> > > II. Lucius Marius Aurelianus has discovered through
> > > introspection and self-observation that he has a masculine
> > > spiritual gender. He wishes to be treated on the basis of
> > > that, his true core identity, in social relations.
> > >
> > > III. You have constantly invoked precedent and Edicta to
> > > thwart the official recognition of this man by the masculine
> > > name that feels right to him. The situation caused by this
> > > attitude on your part caused Marius (before the First Edict
> > > formalised it) to leave as protest in a hope that by leaving
> > > a place he loved so much and for which he had such a deep
> > > affinity he could bring about a political change that would
> > > allow him to come back in the dignity of having his true
> > > identity as expressed in his name officially recognised.
> > >
> > > I hope that everyone on both sides of the debate and in
> > > the middle will recognise the above as a reasonably factual
> > > treatment of the situation as it has evolved.
> > >
> > > My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that
> > > justice be done here. IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that
> > > Nova Roma exists to further, as is AEQUITAS. And as I see
> > > the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT our fellow
> > > human beings. One's spirit and one's identity and one's
> > > sexuality are all very private and intimate things, and they
> > > are matters for us individually to decide according to our
> > > most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to make
> > > those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the
> > > identity one knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.
> > >
> > > But a fourth element is involved in this case:
> > >
> > > IV. Due to the strong personal necessity felt by Marius to
> > > have his name recognised, he presented his case strongly and
> > > persistently, as was necessitated by the lack of
> > > understanding or sympathy with people in his
> > > bio-psychological situation. Sulla and perhaps others
> > > interpreted this returning to the issue repeatedly after he
> > > had said "no" as a lack of respect for his authority. Since
> > > this "no" was based on a lack of understanding and sympathy,
> > > not justice or wisdom, and since Marius had no other obvious
> > > recourse, he continued to petition. This progressively
> > > angered Sulla and some others, and especially in the case of
> > > Sulla this has turned the matter into a contest of personal
> > > wills instead of a normal moral/political/administrative
> > > matter. The recent unfortunate mega-quarrel was a
> > > continuation of this, and it appears to Marius and some
> > > others that although he has been willing to follow the
> > > procedures laid down in new name-change edictum of Sulla and
> > > Merullus, Sulla will refuse to let the processing of the
> > > application go ahead.
> > >
> > > I asked Sulla personally about this, and he did not
> > > reassure me as to his willingness to do treat this case
> > > dispassionately and normally.
> > >
> > > SULLA, when I first came to Nova Roma, it was you who
> > > gave me that bit of honey in the form of cheerful help with
> > > my citizenship application. And as your Scriba I have been
> > > able to study your methods and their results and observe
> > > from close hand your industry in the sevice of Nova Roma and
> > > your commitment to Her. You are a true Romanus. For this
> > > reason I was most willing to become your Scriba, and I have
> > > not regretted it. I can learn a lot from you.
> > >
> > > But in this one matter you have made a mistake, and it
> > > has tarnished your image and impaired your true auctoritas.
> > > It has earned resentment and suspicion for you among many in
> > > our community, and more importantly, by this *inuria*
> > > against this once-and-future citizen you have used your
> > > offical powers to draw Nova Roma into *In*iustitia, and that
> > > is a wrong against all who love either Iustitia and Nova
> > > Roma - even against yourself.
> > >
> > > Marius is willing to jump through all the hoops that you
> > > have set up for people in his position to document
> > > macronational identity. He is completely conformable to the
> > > law of this land now.
> > > *** I therefore publicly ask you to administer this process
> > > promptly and dispassionately in the case of Lucius Marius
> > > Aurelianus. And if that is difficult for you to do, then I
> > > ask you to turn the case over to your colleague Gaius Marius
> > > Merullus and simply approve his action. ***
> > > This is obviously the right thing to do from both a legal
> > > and ethical point of view. And if you do it even at this
> > > rather late date, you will rise even higher in my estimation
> > > as a Romanus and man of honour - and likewise in many, many
> > > minds of less vocal but equally distressed cives among us.
> > >
> > > Marius is not evil because the Gods have given him an
> > > unusual nature. And he was not unreasonable to seek social
> > > recognition under a name that matches his feeling of
> > > identity. And he was not being un-Roman or a whiner or
> > > trouble-maker in coming back again and again with his
> > > request. He has always recognised the authority of the laws
> > > and magistrates of Nova Roma, but his own dignitas and
> > > self-respect have forced him to be persistent in demanding
> > > Iustitia and Aequuitas from them. I am sure he never wanted
> > > to have bad relations with our magistrates, but there are
> > > some things in a person's life that are more important than
> > > being popular with the powers-that be. Or there should be
> > > some.
> > >
> > > SENATUS ROMANUS: There is a legal process now in place for
> > > persons such as L. Marius Aurelianus, and I submit to you
> > > that he has a right to pursue this process without being
> > > judged (for this is indeed a quasi-judicial proceeding)
> > > before a judge (Censor) who has become a personal enemy and
> > > gives signs of being unwilling to let the procedure be
> > > carried through to a prompt and normal conclusion. In all
> > > civilised states it is perceived that cases should be tried
> > > by impartial and personally uninvolved judicial personnel.
> > > It is a basic matter of procedural justice.
> > >
> > > I have *implored* Censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix to
> > > either process this case according to the criteria he laid
> > > down before his most recent quarrel with L. Marius
> > > Aurelianus, and to do so with all deliberate speed and in an
> > > impartial manner. And I have beseeched him to turn the case
> > > over to his colleague C. Marius Merullus if he does not feel
> > > capable of doing so himself. And I note, despite the gentile
> > > connection, Merullus has never tried to interfere in the
> > > administration of this law as written, and can no doubt be
> > > trusted to exercise more impartiality than Sulla, who has an
> > > excessive emotional investment.
> > >
> > > PATRES CONSCRIPTI, if my humble request to Censor Sulla for
> > > simple justice for a fellow citizen is not honoured, then I
> > > respectfully request you to use your general supervisory
> > > powers to direct Censor Sulla to act or transfer the case to
> > > his colleague, Censor Merullus, or in some other way such as
> > > may please the Senate ensure that once-and-future citizen
> > > Aurelianus might have his case processed promptly and
> > > impartially under the laws of Nova Roma which now
> > > specifically allow for such remedy.
> > >
> > > Senatores, you have been in Nova Roma longer than I, and
> > > it must be even more apparent to you from the greater
> > > historical perspective that that affords you that there is a
> > > lot of rough and tumble in Nova Roman politics. Loyalties
> > > shift, friends and enemies change, people get angry and then
> > > make up... But we are all Romani together, and despite the
> > > frustrations and arguments, it means something to all of us
> > > to be here and share Romanitas together. Marius has served
> > > Nova Roma before and held responsibility here. Marius is as
> > > Roman as any of us and has kept that Romanitas while away,
> > > desiring only one thing: to return here to Nova Roma under
> > > the name he regards as his own so that he can live in
> > > dignitas as himself.
> > >
> > > In any state of the U.S. and numerous other countries he
> > > could have that name change - even to a name in masculine
> > > form - for the asking at any local court. We claim that we
> > > serve the virtues of Iustitia and Aequitas amd Libertas with
> > > a unique emphasis here in Nova Roma. But I think we have in
> > > this case already fallen behind most civilised macronations.
> > > We owe it to the ideal of Nova Roma to do better at this.
> > >
> > > And there is also in our repertoire CLEMENTIA. Let us be
> > > guided by it as a Respublica and let an old soldier and old
> > > Roman come home in dignity and peace.
> > >
> > > Valete!
> > >
> > > _________________________________
> > > Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> > > Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> > > Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> > > Scriba Censorius
> > > Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> > > ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
> > > http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> > > The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> > > AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
> > > ________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> > > [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> > > ________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > http://click.egroups.com/1/6628/8/_/61050/_/963902118/
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:30:16 EDT

Salve Festus,

very good point, (a bit stinging, but...)
Dosent the members of our senate and consuls etc, have more pressing things
to do in thier service. This is trivial and we should move on.

Tiberius


>From: Lykaion1@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:46:54 EDT
>
>Graecus,
>
> Please read CLEMENCIA, the post by Formosanus, and then re-read mine.
>Mine is a satire of his and of this whole "issue", and has nothing to do
>with
>the gods.
>
>GL Festus
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:48:01 -0700

We are trying....I am, as Censor, working on trying to improve communication
between the citizens via various projects. Employing scribes and Legates to
assist me in my duties. I just gave our Senior Consul a list of Provincia's
that need governors. As for this issue at hand, til Maria supplies any
documentation to me or my colleague, there is nothing for us to do. :)

I hope this helps.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Aurelius Tiberius wrote:

> Salve Festus,
>
> very good point, (a bit stinging, but...)
> Dosent the members of our senate and consuls etc, have more pressing things
> to do in thier service. This is trivial and we should move on.
>
> Tiberius
>
> >From: Lykaion1@--------
> >Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> >To: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA
> >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:46:54 EDT
> >
> >Graecus,
> >
> > Please read CLEMENCIA, the post by Formosanus, and then re-read mine.
> >Mine is a satire of his and of this whole "issue", and has nothing to do
> >with
> >the gods.
> >
> >GL Festus
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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Subject:	[novaroma] to and for the Senate
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:43:04 EDT

Just a thought for us all,

I am a simple man that dosent consider himself a politican or even political
for that matter. but, I do know when a like minded group is wasting its
precious time.

You Senators need to let this go, If you have made your decision, then it
is done. you should not waste your time bickering with other cives about
it. YOU Drive this train, and we the people (in theory) chose you to do so
because we trust your judgement and intregity to do what is right for "US"
the collective.

Now I make no assumption that you are "of the People" but you I do assume
you are "for the people" (to quote a recently released movie, sorry) this
is true. In my brief dealings with you as a body in my Legio VI sponsoring
and individually as well, you all seem to be humble, hard working, and
selfless people working towards a greater end, But lets face it cut and
dried you are important and have other things to do.

I have had a good amount of expereince with the Gov't of the US and let me
clue you in, If I had a gripe about something like this, and I wanted to
email my senator or congressmen, HAHAHAHA good luck!!

some junior staffer would reply we are working on this, sir thanks for your
time. and when I was 110 years old I'd get a hey we are still working on it
thanks for your patients.

On behalf of the nation, I ask you, no beg you.... MOVE ON!!!

we are tired of this, you would think this discussion was about a cigar and
the oval office. Have the Fortitude to make the decision and Stand by it,
you do not have to explain yourself, again and again..

Your most humble, etc... I remain

Vale

Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum,
Legio VI of the Northern Army
"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:57:01 -0700

ROFL....well consistency must be upheld!!! No one will ever claim that I have
dealt with them duplicity! :) Even though I have no idea how ANY country would
grant you the recognition you seek...but hey...keep me informed.

BTW....Loved the satire! :) Thanks for the laugh...beyond this ulcer I am
getting from NR....I need some laughs...Please continue to do so...

Oh and by the way, I loved the Sulla in chapter 4......CLASSIC thats all I can
say! :) I have saved that post....and showed it to my non-NR friends...and they
Couldnt stop laughing...since they see me everyday! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Lykaion1@-------- wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> This is to complain about the injustice I have suffered at the hands of
> Censor Sulla.
>
> This is little known to the population at large, as it is an issue I
> have kept private. I do not identify myself with humanity. I am a
> trans-ontologized person. While having the physical form of a man, I am, in
> fact, a God. Specifically, I am an incarnation of Pan-Min, a hybrid of the
> Greek deity and the Egyptian, being as I am a God of Joy in a perpetual state
> of massive erection. I accordingly asked Sulla for a name change which would
> allow me to incorporate the names of these deities and that I be allowed my
> own cult within Nova Roma, with a Priestess appointed to tend to My rites. I
> ask the State nothing other than giving Me my due in this matter!
>
> As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
> is simple:
>
> I. You have personal trouble with a trans-ontologized
> individual because you honestly believe that "A human is a human and a God is
> a God" in a rather limiting and over-simplified sense.
>
> 2. I, Gaius Lupinius Festus The Divine Pan-Min have discovered through
> introspection and self-observation that I has a Divine nature. I wish to be
> treated on the basis of that, My true core identity, in social relations.
>
> 3. Sulla has constantly threatened to invoke precedent and Edicta to
> thwart the official recognition of My Godhood man by the Divine Name which
> feels appropriate to me. All he does is blather about "blasphemy of the
> gods" and such, which is really irritating, since I do not feel blasphemed at
> all. The real blasphemy, in My Divine opinion, is that NOT to allow my name
> change and official cult is blaspheming against moi.
>
> 4. My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that justice be done here.
> IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that Nova Roma exists to further, as is
> AEQUITAS. And as I see
> the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT Gods such as I. One's spirit and
> one's identity and one's ontological self-understanding are all very private
> and intimate things, and they are matters for us individually to decide
> according to our most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to make
> those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the identity one
> knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.
>
> Instead, what did Sulla do? He said if I could produce documentation that a
> macronation recognized me as a God, he would treat me as an an exception and
> allow me my name change, as well as petition the College of Pontiffs to
> organize My Cult. He also said he would petition the Senate to bestow the
> Divine Worship which is my due on another Trans-Ontologized person of old
> Rome, Caligula.
>
> This is unfair. I see myself as a God and that should be enough for him and
> the Senate and the College. When a God says 'jump', the only thing they need
> to do is ask 'how high, divinity?'.
>
> The Divine Gaius Lupinius Festus Pan-Min
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:03:59 +0100

Salve Feste

Sorry...!
When I read your email I became scared for I have you as a dedicated
citizen. For a moment I thought you were a maniac needing psychological
treatment =)

Vale bene
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

-----Original Message-----
From: Lykaion1@-------- <Lykaion1@-------->
To: novaroma@-------- <novaroma@-------->
Date: Terga-feira, 18 de Julho de 2000 12:47
Subject: Re: [novaroma] DEMENTIA


>Graecus,
>
> Please read CLEMENCIA, the post by Formosanus, and then re-read mine.
>Mine is a satire of his and of this whole "issue", and has nothing to do
with
>the gods.
>
>GL Festus
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>If not, check this site out.
>They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car.
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] "Aemilia Posta" speaks
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:15:16 -0400

It is merely a few things I've observed after several years of participating in a variety of internet mailing lists, from Doctor Who Appreciation to fans of the Talking Heads. I recently joined Nova Roma and I have just observed a few little misunderstandings that relate directly to my little list of seven nifty things to keep in mind for purposes of avoiding digital bloodshed and mayhem (outside of internet fantasy role-playing games). I apologize to to those who find this overly common-sensical and/or offensive to their intelligence but I just thought I'd throw them out there. If anyone wants to add anything to the list they are entirely welcome.


1. Anything you say can be used against you. An exact quotation can resurface at any time, in or out of context.

2. Sarcasm transmits very poorly via the internet. This is not to say that it ought not be used, just that it should be pretty darn clear (and very funny-like Festus' satire!).

3. Everything you say is being read by actual, physical human beings. This seems incredibly obvious, but equally obvious is the fact that people will type words to other people thousands of miles away that they will not and would never speak to them in person.

4. Exclamation points can be used for a number of purposes, not all of them signify raising one's "voice" necessarily.

5. If a posting offends you to the point of extreme, irrational anger there is a good chance it was not meant to be quite that offensive. You might want to double-check and read it over.

6. When in doubt, ask for clarification. Before your keyboard blasts someone into tiny, quivering, emotionally scarred bits, find out if they meant what you think they meant.

7. Try to avoid blasting people into tiny, quivering, emotionally scarred bits. Unless of course they prefer Helvetica typeface to Times New Roman. Then you should naturally bash their heads in. (Hey guys! That was sarcasm right there!)


-Lauria Maria
"Aemilia Posta" : )






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem XV Kalendas Sextilias (July 18th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:11:11 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens can vote
on political or criminal matters.

Today is the Allienis Die, which marks a double disaster.
In this day, the Fabii were anihilated in an ambush at Cremera.
In this day too, in 390 BCE, the Romans were defeated at the Allia river by
the Gauls led by Brennus, which led to the capture and burning of Rome. From
this later disaster, the day came to be called Allienis Die ("Day of the
Allia"), to be observed by religious abstinence of public and private
business. The defeat was due to the fact that "consular tribune Sulpicius
had not offered acceptable sacrifices on July 16th (the day after the Ides),
and without having secured the good will of the Gods, the Roman army was
exposed to the enemy. Some think that it was for this reason that on the day
after the Ides in each month, all religious functions were ordered to be
suspended, and hence it became the custom to observe the second and the
middle days of the month in the same way" (Livius, A.U.C. 6.1).

The month of Quinctilis was renamed Iulius in 44 BCE in honour of the
deified C. Iulius Caesar. This month is sacred to Iuppiter.

Pax Deorum vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: CLEMENTIA
From:	"C Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:28:42 -0400

Salvete Marce Apolloni et alii

I appreciate your concern for my gensmate, and your concern for Iustitia.
In the interest of both, I ask that you drop this thread. You do NOT have
all the facts, and I don't see your request as leading to resolution of any
problem.

Clearly, an application for citizenship is in the purview of the censores,
not
of the Senate. When we appeal to higher authorities to override magistrates
or act against individual citizens, we undermine the viability of our
system. If
you were apealling a magistrate's decision against you, for instance, that
would
be entirely different. But, you are posting long, cross-posted public
messages to ask
one institution of Nova Roma to usurp the functions of another, in a matter
that concerns
you not directly but only as a sympathetic party. I am happy to report that
it is not
my place to tell you, or anyone else, what you can and cannot do in this
forum, so
do not interpret my statement as a "crackdown" on democracy, free speech or
anything else; but
I really believe that this thread, at this time, is counter-productive at
best.

We, the censores, and Lucius Marius, are in communication on this case.
Public confrontation and factionalization over it aren't going to help --
they're just going to monopolize our public space and hinder us in uniting
to achieve our mission.



Valete

C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus



>M. Apollonius Formosanus Quiritibus, Censoribus et Senatui
>Novae Romae S.P.D.
>
>Censor L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>
>Ave, Formosanus
>
> My best advice to you, so that you can get a
>better understanding of what has happened, is to go back to
>the NR archieves, and read every post from March to the
>Present. That would give you somewhat of a decent
>understanding of what went on. And, it might balance your
>point of view for both sides and not just one side as it
>seems to be in the post below.
>


> I have *implored* Censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix to
>either process this case according to the criteria he laid
>down before his most recent quarrel with L. Marius
>Aurelianus, and to do so with all deliberate speed and in an
>impartial manner. And I have beseeched him to turn the case
>over to his colleague C. Marius Merullus if he does not feel
>capable of doing so himself. And I note, despite the gentile
>connection, Merullus has never tried to interfere in the
>administration of this law as written, and can no doubt be
>trusted to exercise more impartiality than Sulla, who has an
>excessive emotional investment.
>
>PATRES CONSCRIPTI, if my humble request to Censor Sulla for
>simple justice for a fellow citizen is not honoured, then I
>respectfully request you to use your general supervisory
>powers to direct Censor Sulla to act or transfer the case to
>his colleague, Censor Merullus, or in some other way such as
>may please the Senate ensure that once-and-future citizen
>Aurelianus might have his case processed promptly and
>impartially under the laws of Nova Roma which now
>specifically allow for such remedy.
>
> Senatores, you have been in Nova Roma longer than I, and
>it must be even more apparent to you from the greater
>historical perspective that that affords you that there is a
>lot of rough and tumble in Nova Roman politics. Loyalties
>shift, friends and enemies change, people get angry and then
>make up... But we are all Romani together, and despite the
>frustrations and arguments, it means something to all of us
>to be here and share Romanitas together. Marius has served
>Nova Roma before and held responsibility here. Marius is as
>Roman as any of us and has kept that Romanitas while away,
>desiring only one thing: to return here to Nova Roma under
>the name he regards as his own so that he can live in
>dignitas as himself.
>



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: DEMENTIA
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:47:12 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@h...>
wrote:
> This is trivial and we should move on.

AGREED. The way to drop a subject is not to post about it, and
preferably to introduce an interesting alternate topic.

May I suggest that Festus' satire has given us a subject for
discussion? Can anyone cite ancient Roman satires that take the Gods'
names in vain?

Patricia Cassia


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] to and for the Senate
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:52:43 -0400

Salvete, Qirites!

I would just like to thank Aurelius for his clear-thinking and well-put comments. His observations capture, for me, the Spirit of Nova Roma.

Valete,

Lucilla Cornelia Aurelia Antonina
Scriba Censorius

novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> Just a thought for us all,
>
> I am a simple man that dosent consider himself a politican or even political
> for that matter.  but, I do know when a like minded group is wasting its
> precious time.
>
> You Senators need to let this go,  If you have made your decision, then it
> is done.  you should not waste your time bickering with other cives about
> it.  YOU Drive this train,  and we the people (in theory) chose you to do so
> because we trust your judgement and intregity to do what is right for "US"
> the collective.
>
> Now I make no assumption that you are "of the People" but you I do assume
> you are "for the people" (to quote a recently released movie, sorry)  this
> is true.  In my brief dealings with you as a body in my Legio VI sponsoring
> and individually as well, you all seem to be humble, hard working, and
> selfless people working towards a greater end, But lets face it cut and
> dried you are important and have other things to do.
>
> I have had a good amount of expereince with the Gov't of the US and let me
> clue you in, If I had a gripe about something like this, and I wanted to
> email my senator or congressmen, HAHAHAHA  good luck!!
>
> some junior staffer would reply we are working on this, sir thanks for your
> time.  and when I was 110 years old I'd get a hey we are still working on it
> thanks for your patients.
>
> On behalf of the nation, I ask you, no beg you....  MOVE ON!!!
>
> we are tired of this, you would think this discussion was about a cigar and
> the oval office.  Have the Fortitude to make the decision and Stand by it,  
> you do not have to explain yourself, again and again..
>
> Your most humble, etc... I remain
>
> Vale
>
> Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
> Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum,
> Legio VI of the Northern Army
> "Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
> est Lux."
> "we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
> the Light"
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Reactions
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:14:12 -0400

Salve, Flaccus!

I know many of us are delighted with your decision to remain a Citizen. We have much to gain from your knowledge and enthusiasm, and hope to have the benefit of your talents at the Musarum. All within NR are richer for your continued presence.

I, too, share your Pater's happiness in your decision to remain among us.

Vale bene et bona fortuna,

Lucilla Cornelia Aurelia Antonina
Scriba Censorius

novaroma@-------- wrote:
>
> Piscinus Flacco suo S.P.D.
>
> Scripsisti:
> >My pater argued however that I only had a discord with two persons,
> not with NR as a whole, and that there are still other sodalitates
> (of which I didn't even know they existed) I perhaps wanted to join
> and other people I wanted to meet. My decision to leave was perhaps a
> bit rash, as some commented; I realise this now and wish to restart
> with a "tabula rasa" at Nova Roma.
> >
>
> I am very pleased and appreciate your decision, and I share in your
> pater's happiness that you will be remaining with Nova Roma.
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: CLEMENTIA
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:04:22 EDT

Salvete,

I'll try to keep my input here brief, but the thread itself is a long one. My
thanks to anyone with the patience to follow this post to the end! :)

For those that *don't* have the time or desire to read to the end I'll make
my basic point right up front:

Even though Marius Fimbria has not yet returned as a Citizen, the "Gender
Issue" War is OVER. Sulla's controversial sole Censorial Edict has been
repealed. A new Edict, co-written by both Censors is in it's place. *Marius
Fimbria has publicly approved the new revision.* All argument is now
between individuals, rather than a fight over an existing official document.

And now specific comments for those very few still interested...

In a message dated 7/17/00 11:35:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bvm3@--------
writes:

<< (Sulla's comments snipped)

Formosanus:
I thank you for your measured and courteous response,
Sulla. I am happy to inform you that I lived through the
months from March onward and some months before, reading the
nuntia from Nova Roma avidly each day, and they are all on
my hard drive for instant reference. If my materials with
respect to your recent little brush up :-) with Aurelianus
are one sided, it is because we have not heard your side of
it from you. However, there is a reliable-looking report
from Senate circles posted on the RomanOutpost List, and I
have quite a lot of details from Aurelianus himself.

Cassius:
At this point, both Aurelianus (Fimbria) and Sulla have made long posts to
the main list, each giving their side of the issue. Everyone even remotely
interested in the topic has had opportunity to view both sides of the issue
in detail.

Formosanus:
As to the whole history, I think that the essence of it
is simple:

I. You have personal trouble with a transgendering
individual because you honestly believe that "A man is a man
and a woman a woman." In a rather limiting and
over-simplified sense.

Cassius:
This point itself is over - simplified. The issue wasn't simply about
transgender biology, but also about *official* recognition of transgender
status. Sulla's personal understanding of the issue is almost moot point...
his *job* was to research transgender status as it stands in most nations,
and come up with an official policy. I personally had problems with how that
research came out, and am glad that two Censors working together were able to
come up with a policy that is more clear and reasonable.

Formosanus:
II. Lucius Marius Aurelianus has discovered through
introspection and self-observation that he has a masculine
spiritual gender. He wishes to be treated on the basis of
that, his true core identity, in social relations.

Cassius:
With this I agree. However, while Marius may have sparked the debate, Marius
himself is not THE entire issue. Marius may have a strong "core identity"
that is masculine, but what about the next person raising the gender issue,
the one after that person, and so on? Policy was needed. I personally don't
think the original Gender Edict was workable. Since Marius has agreed to the
revision, I am satisfied.

Formosanus:
III. You have constantly invoked precedent and Edicta to
thwart the official recognition of this man by the masculine
name that feels right to him. The situation caused by this
attitude on your part caused Marius (before the First Edict
formalized it) to leave as protest in a hope that by leaving
a place he loved so much and for which he had such a deep
affinity he could bring about a political change that would
allow him to come back in the dignity of having his true
identity as expressed in his name officially recognized.

Cassius:
Even Sulla has upheld the fact Marius has been welcome to USE a masculine
name from moment one, in chat, email, public posts, etc. What Sulla refused
to do was officially amend the Citizen rolls to list Marius as a male.
Fimbria resigned from NR because it was a point of honor. Being able to use a
male name in all daily activities, but being on the rolls as a female wasn't
good enough. Quite frankly, had *I* been in such a position, I might have
found this a reasonable compromise. Only the Censors see the official rolls.

Formosanus:
I hope that everyone on both sides of the debate and in
the middle will recognize the above as a reasonably factual
treatment of the situation as it has evolved.

Cassius:
You've certainly been more clear than many posts on the subject! Again,
however, the original Gender Edict which was so opposed is gone. Marius has
supported the new edict that has replaced it.

Formosanus:
My interest in this as a civis of Nova Roma is that
justice be done here. IUSTITIA is one of those virtues that
Nova Roma exists to further, as is AEQUITAS. And as I see
the matter, Iustitia demands that we RESPECT our fellow
human beings. One's spirit and one's identity and one's
sexuality are all very private and intimate things, and they
are matters for us individually to decide according to our
most inward sense of self. To deny anyone the right to make
those decisions and to live outwardly in accordance with the
identity one knows oneself to have is to fail in Iustitia.

Cassius:
This has become a drawn out and emotional issue for many people because
Marius IS well respected. Again, however, the individual known as Marius
Fimbria is not the entire issue. What was Nova Roma to do the next time
someone wanted their gender officially changed? Automatically grant it
because it's the *respectful* thing to do? Suppose the next person were to
have circumstances almost completely different from Fimbria? Suppose it were
someone who in fact had no gender issue at all, but wanted to join the
Vestals in order to meet women? (Okay, I didn't say this hypothetical person
was *bright*...) :P

Formosanus:
But a fourth element is involved in this case:
IV. Due to the strong personal necessity felt by Marius to
have his name recognized, he presented his case strongly and
persistently, as was necessitated by the lack of
understanding or sympathy with people in his
bio-psychological situation. Sulla and perhaps others
interpreted this returning to the issue repeatedly after he
had said "no" as a lack of respect for his authority. Since
this "no" was based on a lack of understanding and sympathy,
not justice or wisdom, and since Marius had no other obvious
recourse, he continued to petition. This progressively
angered Sulla and some others, and especially in the case of
Sulla this has turned the matter into a contest of personal
wills instead of a normal moral/political/administrative
matter.

Cassius:
This has been well put. Although the original Gender Edict has been changed,
the whole process was a brutal one.

Formosanus:
The recent unfortunate mega-quarrel was a
continuation of this, and it appears to Marius and some
others that although he has been willing to follow the
procedures laid down in new name-change edictum of Sulla and
Merullus, Sulla will refuse to let the processing of the
application go ahead.

Cassius:
I personally am in no position to answer for Lucius Cornelius Sulla. We do
have two Censors, one of whom is sympathetic to Marius' situation. Still if I
were going to offer advice to Marius on this situation I'd recommend letting
things cool down a bit. For the last two or three months the overwhelming
majority of Marius' involvement with Nova Roma has been to fight with it. Can
Marius ever live peacefully with Nova Roma again, or would her regaining
Citizenship at this point only guarantee more fights and disagreement, and
more disappointment on Marius' part?

The Gender Edict was revised to a form which Marius could live with. Even
with this Sulla and Marius had a public brawl in the live chat. Obviously not
enough time has passed on *either* side of the fence.

Formosanus:
I asked Sulla personally about this, and he did not
reassure me as to his willingness to do treat this case
dispassionately and normally.

Cassius:
Sulla just had a major blowout with Marius in the live chat, AFTER months of
hassling over the Gender Edict. I'm not sure anyone could consider the
situation dispassionately and normally without some real time to get some
distance on these issues. Would you have preferred Sulla to lie to you?

Formosanus:
SULLA, when I first came to Nova Roma, it was you who
gave me that bit of honey in the form of cheerful help with
my citizenship application. And as your Scriba I have been
able to study your methods and their results and observe
from close hand your industry in the sevice of Nova Roma and
your commitment to Her. You are a true Romanus. For this
reason I was most willing to become your Scriba, and I have
not regretted it. I can learn a lot from you.

Cassius:
Well said!

Formosanus:
But in this one matter you have made a mistake, and it
has tarnished your image and impaired your true auctoritas.
It has earned resentment and suspicion for you among many in
our community, and more importantly, by this *inuria*
against this once-and-future citizen you have used your
offical powers to draw Nova Roma into *In*iustitia, and that
is a wrong against all who love either Iustitia and Nova
Roma - even against yourself.

Cassius:
There have been actions on both sides of this issue which people have had
cause to regret. Sulla in fact has worked to correct the situation by
reworking the Gens Edict, and this is a positive step.

Formosanus:
Marius is willing to jump through all the hoops that you
have set up for people in his position to document
macronational identity. He is completely conformable to the
law of this land now.

Cassius:
I'm not sure about completely comfortable, since the latest blowup happened
AFTER the new Gender Edict. There are still issues here I think. Perhaps some
time would help smooth them?

Formosanus:
*** I therefore publicly ask you to administer this process
promptly and dispassionately in the case of Lucius Marius
Aurelianus. And if that is difficult for you to do, then I
ask you to turn the case over to your colleague Gaius Marius
Merullus and simply approve his action. ***
This is obviously the right thing to do from both a legal
and ethical point of view. And if you do it even at this
rather late date, you will rise even higher in my estimation
as a Romanus and man of honour - and likewise in many, many
minds of less vocal but equally distressed cives among us.

Cassius:
If I were to make a suggestion, I'd say give the issue two or three months.
Marius and Sulla are still pretty obviously having interpersonal problems.
Why force the issue immediately? Everybody is worn out at this point,
including Marius.

Formosanus:
Marius is not evil because the Gods have given him an
unusual nature. And he was not unreasonable to seek social
recognition under a name that matches his feeling of
identity. And he was not being un-Roman or a whiner or
trouble-maker in coming back again and again with his
request. He has always recognised the authority of the laws
and magistrates of Nova Roma, but his own dignitas and
self-respect have forced him to be persistent in demanding
Iustitia and Aequuitas from them. I am sure he never wanted
to have bad relations with our magistrates, but there are
some things in a person's life that are more important than
being popular with the powers-that be. Or there should be
some.

Cassius:
Marius has in fact locked horns with various magistrates over several issues,
but that's neither here or there. The big difficulty here is simply that this
one situation has gone on far too long. This is why I'm suggesting some time
for everyone to recover.

Formosanus:
SENATUS ROMANUS: There is a legal process now in place for
persons such as L. Marius Aurelianus, and I submit to you
that he has a right to pursue this process without being
judged (for this is indeed a quasi-judicial proceeding)
before a judge (Censor) who has become a personal enemy and
gives signs of being unwilling to let the procedure be
carried through to a prompt and normal conclusion. In all
civilised states it is perceived that cases should be tried
by impartial and personally uninvolved judicial personnel.
It is a basic matter of procedural justice.

Cassius:
This is certainly correct. Has Marius said that he wishes to proceed with
this process immediately? I talked with Marius on the phone two nights ago
and this was not the case. I can understand that this all affects your basic
sense of fairness, but as a Senator I'm not taking a step with this issue
until Marius specifically asks for it.

Formosanus:
I have *implored* Censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix to
either process this case according to the criteria he laid
down before his most recent quarrel with L. Marius
Aurelianus, and to do so with all deliberate speed and in an
impartial manner. And I have beseeched him to turn the case
over to his colleague C. Marius Merullus if he does not feel
capable of doing so himself. And I note, despite the gentile
connection, Merullus has never tried to interfere in the
administration of this law as written, and can no doubt be
trusted to exercise more impartiality than Sulla, who has an
excessive emotional investment.

Cassius:
Again, what does Marius say about all this? In conversation Marius has indeed
expressed a desire to return to NR, but also has spoken of being exhausted
from all the controversy over the Gender Issue, and a strong desire to focus
on personal life for a while.

Formosanus:
PATRES CONSCRIPTI, if my humble request to Censor Sulla for
simple justice for a fellow citizen is not honoured, then I
respectfully request you to use your general supervisory
powers to direct Censor Sulla to act or transfer the case to
his colleague, Censor Merullus, or in some other way such as
may please the Senate ensure that once-and-future citizen
Aurelianus might have his case processed promptly and
impartially under the laws of Nova Roma which now
specifically allow for such remedy.

Cassius:
Again, I'm not at all certain that Marius wants to pursue this course
immediately. If Marius DOES wish to do that, then the Senate must hear from
Marius directly. No advocate is needed for a direct reapplication for
Citizenship.

Formosanus:
Senatores, you have been in Nova Roma longer than I, and
it must be even more apparent to you from the greater
historical perspective that that affords you that there is a
lot of rough and tumble in Nova Roman politics. Loyalties
shift, friends and enemies change, people get angry and then
make up... But we are all Romani together, and despite the
frustrations and arguments, it means something to all of us
to be here and share Romanitas together. Marius has served
Nova Roma before and held responsibility here. Marius is as
Roman as any of us and has kept that Romanitas while away,
desiring only one thing: to return here to Nova Roma under
the name he regards as his own so that he can live in
dignitas as himself.

Cassius:
Again, if Marius decides to reapply for Citizenship immediately rather than
wait, so be it.

Formosanus:
In any state of the U.S. and numerous other countries he
could have that name change - even to a name in masculine
form - for the asking at any local court. We claim that we
serve the virtues of Iustitia and Aequitas amd Libertas with
a unique emphasis here in Nova Roma. But I think we have in
this case already fallen behind most civilised macronations.
We owe it to the ideal of Nova Roma to do better at this.

Cassius:
This could have been a fitting commentary on the FIRST Gender Edict, but the
revision has taken care of this problem.

Formosanus:
And there is also in our repertoire CLEMENTIA. Let us be
guided by it as a Respublica and let an old soldier and old
Roman come home in dignity and peace.

Cassius:
I'd like nothing better than to have Marius return. However, I would much
prefer that this happen when Marius is ready, as opposed to when it would
please his friends. The last I heard from Marius personally was a desire to
put things on hold and let everyone rest a bit. If things have changed, fine.
But if NOT, please, let's give this issue a chance to get some distance
behind it.

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Senator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Social Order among Cives
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:27:07 EDT

Salve NR!!

I have a question for anyone interested

I understand the social order of Old Rome... But what about us?? We have
the Pats and Plebs, But I don't see a distinction between Senatorial Class,
Equestrian Order, etc...

are we not following this or am I being dumb and it's in front of my face??
( would not be the first time, hide in plain site I say!!)

I skimmed the website and we really make no mention of the different classes
there.

Just want to see what everyone thinks.

(also trying to help change the subject!!!)

Vale





Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum,
Legio VI of the Northern Army
"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

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Subject:	[novaroma] Dementia?
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:36:08 +0200

Salve Feste,

Despite all the satire and fun, the comparison wasn't entirely right.
There's a difference between feeling yourself a God and wanting a Cult than
simply feeling to be someone else.

Sextus Apollonius Draco, cives Novae Romae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
"There is no knowledge that is not power"
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
--**--

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Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings from the City by the Lake
From:	globpronet@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:37:01 EDT

Q. Fabius Maximus sends salutations from the city by the Lake.
I have left my home and traveled east. I will be in Lancaster, Penn
20th-23rd.
I would love to meet any citizen in that area. Please e-mail me at this
address with contact information. globpronet@-------- before the 20th. I am
here to launch my new military history magazine "Strategikon"
The magazine analyzes warfare of the pre gunpowder period. In the inaugural
issue, we talk about the Spanish people and about what great warriors they
made, and analyze the campaign of and battle of first Cremona 69 CE. The
magazine will be
quarterly, this issue is only 24 pages, which I hope to increase it to 36,
as
advertising revenue increases.
I have to admit that this was not the greatest time to launch a mag, with
the
consulship and all, but the auspices were right, and things fell together so
well that even I must confess it was preordained to happen. At any rate
citizens that wish to meet with me while I am in Penn. please contact me
before the 20th.
Since I have no idea what is happening in the Forum, I hope things are calm
and peaceful. Today, as many Romans know, is the anniversary of a disaster
that almost spelled the end of the ancient Republic. In 395 or 390, the
Gaulic invasion defeated the Roman phalanxes on Allia stream.
This was usually a day spent in contemplation, and quiet meditation about the
Gods and the State since businesses were closed and the Senate would not be
in session. Think on this, and noble Senators, remember the sacrifice of our
spiritual kin several days in the future. They assured that Rome did not die.
I leave you then in the capable hands of Consul Marcus Minucius Audens and
the Roman senate.
Valete!


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Subject:	[novaroma] Social order
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:38:52 +0200

Ave Aureli Tiberi,

Would there be a need for further dividing us into classes? Not in my
opinion...

Sextus Apollonius Draco, cives Novae Romae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
"There is no knowledge that is not power"
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
--**--


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Subject:	[novaroma] De iuribus was Re: Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	"C Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:02:25 -0400

Salvete Feste et alii

Actually, we do grant some specific rights to citizens. See article II B of
the Constitution at
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/constitution_new2.html

On the subject of the Ordo Equester to which that article refers, I am happy
to report that we censores have come up with an application for citizens to
complete to gain acceptance to that institution. I shall post that in an
edictum to be published tomorrow. (by the way, I never saw a decree from
the Collegium Pontificum dealing with issuing edicta in relation to dies
fasti aut nefasti -- I assume therefore that I need not consult the
religious calendar to determine appropriateness of any given day to issue an
edictum, but I would like clarification of this issue from the CP in the
form of a solid decretum if at all possible)

>sides. But, correct me if I am wrong Vado, there are no civil liberties in
>NR?
>I dont see any spelled out rights other than the ability to vote and
>participate
>in Nova Roma venues such as chat and the email list. Correct?
>
>>

Valete

C Marius Merullus


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Subject:	[novaroma] Fw: RIEVOCAZIONE DEL MERCATO DELLA CENTURIAZIONE ROMANA
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:02:26 +0100

Salvete omnes

For those that can read Italian, there is an interesting upcoming event.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus



-----Original Message-----
From: Maragno Dot. Enrico <docmar@-------->
To: Antonio Grilo <amg>
Date: Terga-feira, 18 de Julho de 2000 19:50
Subject: RIEVOCAZIONE DEL MERCATO DELLA CENTURIAZIONE ROMANA


Vi inviamo il programma e una descrizione della nostra rievocazione di et`
Romana del 26-27 agosto 2000 in programma a Villadose (Rovigo)
Gruppo Archeologico di Villadose




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Social order
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:09:37 EDT

I am not for it one way or the other, I was just curious if this issue was
ever brought up before. if we are to model ourselves after Old Rome then it
should exsist, we use points to track certin things, etc.. then maybe this
too should be included. If we dont want this part of the "package" then do
we open ourselves to selectivly removing parts of the whole we are trying to
resurect. If they don't suit us?? If so then we are not truly Rome... Are
we???

food for thought??





>From: "Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Social order
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:38:52 +0200
>
>Ave Aureli Tiberi,
>
>Would there be a need for further dividing us into classes? Not in my
>opinion...
>
>Sextus Apollonius Draco, cives Novae Romae,
>Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
>--**--
>"There is no knowledge that is not power"
>"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
>--**--
>

________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Fw: RIEVOCAZIONE DEL MERCATO DELLA CENTURIAZIONE ROMANA
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:13:47 EDT

Good Antonio,

I'm having a hard enought time with latin, please just take me out back and
shoot me!!! (just kidding)

Can anyone translate these for us poor fools that got talked into taking
Japanese in College??

Tiberius_r


>From: "Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Subject: [novaroma] Fw: RIEVOCAZIONE DEL MERCATO DELLA CENTURIAZIONE ROMANA
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:02:26 +0100
>
>Salvete omnes
>
>For those that can read Italian, there is an interesting upcoming event.
>
>Valete
>Antonius Gryllus Graecus
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Maragno Dot. Enrico <docmar@-------->
>To: Antonio Grilo <amg>
>Date: Terga-feira, 18 de Julho de 2000 19:50
>Subject: RIEVOCAZIONE DEL MERCATO DELLA CENTURIAZIONE ROMANA
>
>
>Vi inviamo il programma e una descrizione della nostra rievocazione di et`
>Romana del 26-27 agosto 2000 in programma a Villadose (Rovigo)
>Gruppo Archeologico di Villadose
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Democracy v. Republic; & Rights (Long)
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:00:01 US/Central

T Labienus C Lupinio Omnibusque S P D

As you haven’t responded to my attempt to elicit the difference you perceive
between a democracy and a republic from you, Feste, I’ll try a different tack.
Instead, I’ll ramble on about what I see your beliefs to be and you can rebut
me if I misrepresent you. I’ll also throw in some observations about what I’ve
put into your mouth, which, of course, you are also free to rebut in your own
inimitably acerbic and (at times) propagandistic style.

Vado uses the term democracy in a relatively generic way. For him, a democracy
is any form of government that is elected by, and which derives its power from,
the people. You seem to use it in a more specific sense to describe a state of
affairs in which every citizen may vote upon every piece of public business
from specific laws to foreign affairs. You maintain that this is, effectively,
a mobocracy which inevitably leads to such disastrous events as the Athenian
assault on Syracuse and the election of Hitler. (I put it to you that the
former example is much more appropriate to your argument, as the fall of the
Weimar Republic was by no means a simple matter. Of course, you mentioned
Hitler primarily to appeal to emotion, rather than reason.) Most importantly,
I suspect, you also feel that the rights of the individual are lost under such
a system, in which every law that might protect individual rights is subject to
the whim of the fickle, under-educated (or at least under-informed) mob.

Of course, the concept is a bit more complicated, due to the volume of people
involved in the modern state. The solution to the complexity of such a large
populace is the representative democracy, in which the whole people vote for
some smaller body that then runs the state. This body, however, is not
restrained heavily by a constitution and a system of checks and balances. They
are free to enact whatever measures they can build enough support for, and
either are beholden to the whims of the aforementioned mob or comprise what is
effectively an elected oligarchy.

It seems that you define a republic as a government which has a constitution
that is superior to all bodies of government, and in which the bodies of
government are designed such that each prevents the supremacy of the others.
One of the things that confuse me about your position is that you have implied
on a number of occasions that the US government, which exactly matches the
definition I just gave, is a democracy. I currently conclude that you mean
that the US was founded as a republic and has since devolved into something
closer to a democracy due to the efforts of Leftists, vocal minority interest
groups, apologists for political correctness, and the effects of modern polling
techniques and communications technologies.

Under this system, the people elect representatives to some or all of the
bodies of government, and these representatives carry out the day-to-day
running of the state without much interference from the populace. These
representatives are restricted by the constitution, and by the powers of the
representatives in other bodies of the government. Individual rights,
protected as they are by the constitution and various laws that cannot be
easily overturned on a whim, are upheld within a republic—assuming that the
representatives have been wisely selected by the populace on the whole and are
conscientious about their jobs, etc.

So much for your beliefs as I perceive them—fairly standard right-of-center
Jeffersonian stuff. Please do correct me where I have misconstrued the
implications of your various posts on the matter, as I genuinely want to
understand your position in case you can deliver some new insight into the
nature of government to me. Scienta potentas est.

Now, both you and the senior consul claim that Nova Roma is a republic, and not
a democracy. I believe that it has elements of both, along with an oligarchic
aspect as well.

On the one hand, we have a constitution that places itself as the highest law
in the land, a set of magistrates who can balance each other through the use of
the veto and who handle the minutia of the state’s business without recourse to
the people, and a separate body that handles the state’s finances and advises
the magistrates and people. All of this is, according to the definition I have
posited above, republican.

On the other hand, our constitution never gives the Senate the power to
actually create any binding laws. Technically, its senatus consulta can’t even
overturn a magistrate’s edictum—the lowest in legal precedence of all
government actions—unless that edictum applies to the internal workings of the
Senate or the finances of the state. Laws, which can only be passed and
revoked by a vote of the whole people (or almost the whole people in the case
of plebiscita), have substantially more legal clout than anything the Senate or
magistrates can enact. This is decidedly democratic, though the possibility of
a magisterial veto against a junior magistrate calling an election does
ameliorate this. Note, though, that no one can legally veto the outcome of an
election or stop one in progress.

Finally (on the other, other hand?), it is possible for the Senate to grant
dictatorial powers to whomever it pleases, should it deem such an action
necessary. Therefore, it is technically possible for the Senate, through such
a person, to not only bypass all of the laws, decreta, senatus consulta, and
edicta in existence, but even to completely rewrite or entirely do away with
the constitution. All of this is entirely constitution, as well. The threat
of this power is immense, and much more in line with an oligarchy or
aristocracy than either a democracy or a republic. (Please note that I’m not
trying to be an alarmist here. I do not foresee such an eventuality occurring
anytime soon, and its one use to date was quite probably as necessary as it was
beneficial. However, such a power can break a state as easily as make it.)

Also, the veto as it stands is not so much a check-and-balance kind of
instrument as a tool that senior magistrates can abuse to muzzle junior
magistrates. It certainly has that danger, since magisterial vetoes trump each
other as one goes up the Cursus Honorum, and the tribuni plebis must deliver
their veto collegially. It doesn’t serve to lessen the possibility of
oligarchy, as it did in Roma Antiqua (arguable, I know). Instead, it increases
it.

And so, it seems to me that one can then argue until one is blue in the face
that Nova Roma is or is not a democracy or republic, and still be neither
correct nor incorrect. It has elements of both and of neither. It is, as was
Roma Antiqua, founded upon democratic (in the generic sense of democracy; i.e.
empowerment of the people) principles with a powerful oligarchic undercurrent.

On to the subject of rights, which you may note is a separate entity from the
discussion about forms of government. One can have rights within a feudal
monarchy just as easily as within a republic.

The senior consul has stated that Novoromani don’t have, to borrow a wonderful
phrase, inalienable rights. (IIRC, Feste, you have argued both sides as seemed
best for your argument at the time.) The constitution both explicitly and
implicitly states that the citizens of Nova Roma do have rights, however. We
can practice whatever religion we want, follow the laws of our macronations,
vote, exercise free speech, sue magistrates, remain secure in our property and
person, get help from the state, and sell stuff to benefit the state. Most
importantly, though, the constitution states, “this enumeration [of rights]
shall not be taken to exclude other rights that citizens may possess.” One can
take that to mean either that other rights may be added later on, or that
citizens are recognized to have intrinsic rights beyond those outlined in the
constitution. I much prefer the latter interpretation, both because I am a
modern American (and therefore arrogantly certain of my importance to the
world) and because the former interpretation implies that the list in the
constitution is exclusionary, despite what it says.

Vale



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Greetings from the City by the Lake
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:15:39 -0000

> Today, as many Romans know, is the anniversary of a disaster
> that almost spelled the end of the ancient Republic. In 395 or
390, the
> Gaulic invasion defeated the Roman phalanxes on Allia stream.
> This was usually a day spent in contemplation, and quiet meditation
about the
> Gods and the State since businesses were closed and the Senate
would not be
> in session. Think on this, and noble Senators, remember the
sacrifice of our
> spiritual kin several days in the future. They assured that Rome
did not die.
> I leave you then in the capable hands of Consul Marcus Minucius
Audens and
> the Roman senate.

Wise words from our senior consul. Fabius, when you return, would you
post information on your magazine for those Cives who might wish to
subscribe?

Patricia Cassia


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Social Order among Cives
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:16:43 US/Central

T Labienus Aurelio Tiberio S P D

> I understand the social order of Old Rome... But what about us??  We have
> the Pats and Plebs, But I don't see a distinction between Senatorial Class,
> Equestrian Order, etc...

The differences are small.

> are we not following this or am I being dumb and it's in front of my face??

Rome's social order came about over the course of centuries of built-up
tradition. Much of it was, of course, never codified. Therefore, there are
many facets of it upon which scholars do not agree. Was the Republic
democratic (in the generic sense) or an oligarchy? It depends on who you read.

Additionally, we're Nova Roma, not Roma Antiqua. We've made all sorts of
compromises in order to be palatable to modern people; the most obvious of
these are in the areas of women's rights and slavery. How much of Roma Antiqua
to keep and how much modernity to include is part of an ongoing dialogue
amongst us.

Vale



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Subject:	[novaroma] Limes Fortress Saalburg
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:17:19 +0200

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Heartful greetings to all fellow citizens.

During my summer holidays I had the opportunity to visit the Saalburg, a
rebuild roman castellum near Frankfurt/Bad Homburg. It´s a place worth
to visit.

Like the most castella alongside the Limes of Germania Superior, the
Saalburg had an interesting history.

The first Castellum was made during the wars of Domitian against the
Chatten, a germanic tribe residing in what´s today hessia, around 85 CE.
There are two earth fortifications, Schanze A and Schanze B, which where
erected for a force of Centuria strenght (ca. 80 men). This force was
probably sent out to guard the strategic important Saalburg-pass over
the Taunus.

After this, around 115 CE, under Traian, the first castellum was
erected. It measures 98x92m with a fossa and a vallum of earth and
timber. A force of rd. 160 men was stationed there, a Numerus Brittonum,
a small combat force erected in Brittannia and moved to the Limes. This
castellum was overbuild between 129 and 139 CE. A Coin of Hadrian,
dating 129 CE, was found in the filling material of the first castellums
fossa, an inscription dating 139 CE calls, that the new forces of the
enlarged, rebuild castellum used their new home by this date. So, 135 CE
is the approximatly date that the new, enlarged castellum was build.

The new forces were the Cohors II Raetorum Equitata Civium Romanorum,
the 2nd Cohors of the Raetians, mounted, of Roman citizens. This unit
consisted of 320 men of infantry (4 Centuriae) and 120 men of Cavalry (4
Turmae), a highly flexible force able to fulfill a wide range of
military tasks.

The castellum was rebuild in stone during the 2nd half of the 2nd
century. For a partly mounted Cohors, the castellum was a little bit to
big, so it is assumed, that the Numerus Brittonum remained there, too.

During my visit I had the chance to taste roman bread, too. It´s very
delicious. This bread is baked there. Also worth visiting is the
exhibition in the Horraeum and the Principia, the HQ of the Castellum.
The vicus (village) and the bath of the castellum are also excavated.

After the Saalburg, I visited the "Feldbergkastell", a small castellum
near the municipality of Schmitten, some 10 km away from the Saalburg.
This Castellum lays in ruins. It contained the Exploratio Halicanensium,
a partly mounted Reconnaissance Unit raised in Halica (today in
Hungary). The castellum was build in the middle of the 2nd century CE.

Both castella were destroyed during the Alamannic Assault around 259/260
CE. They were given up and never restored. From then, the Rhine was the
border of the Empire.

I recommend this places to all Citizens, alongside with a huge amount of
further castella and watch towers along the Limes in Germany. I hope
that I can visit a couple of these places, too.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	DTibbe2926@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:25:44 EDT

In a message dated 18/07/00 12:18:50 GMT Daylight Time,
alexious@-------- writes:

<< Ave, since you have addressed me directly, I will be happy to respond. I
believed that his comment was referring to the Governor of Britannia, and as
the Governor of Britiannia he was speaking for the Provincia.. >>

In all his postings, and in particular the posting to which Festus made his
uncalled-for attack on the integrity of the citizens of Britannia, Vado has
never signed using his official title of Governor.

<< I agree with you, Appius Claudius, he should not have made his sweeping
generalization.
Instead his sweeping Generalization should have been narrowed to just the
Governor of Britianna. :) >>

No, it shouldn't. Vado has not spoken as Governor of Britannia. Vado has
spoken as a private citizen. By endorsing the insult as one directed to the
Governor, you endorse it as an insult to all the citizens of Britannia.

<< And, I believe that through our conversations on
AIM, he assured me that that is what he meant. I think Vado is wrong and
has misled Nova Roma a number of times and this is one of those times.
Another one was that article that Festus was able to look at and give the
complete article for the examination of our citizens. >>

The attack may have been against Vado personally but as worded it insulted us
all. I still want an unambiguous apology to the citizens of Britannia for in
effect calling us all liars.

Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus
Praefectus Aerarii Britanniae
(and citizen)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Of Truth, Opinions, and Insults
From:	DTibbe2926@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:25:47 EDT

In a message dated 18/07/00 12:39:46 GMT Daylight Time, Lykaion1@--------
writes:

<< Yes, exactly. I had thought the context of my note would make that clear.

But if not, then I will state that the sentence "look not to Brittania" for
the truth refers to it's governor. >>

Not good enough. I don't care how much you insult Vado the person but don't
insult his office when he doesn't speak in an official capacity as that to is
an insult to the citizens of Britannia.

And you still haven't apologised for the original insult to the citizens of
Britannia either.

Publius Claudius Lucentius Severus
Praefectus Aerarii Britanniae
(and citizen)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Democracy v. Republic; & Rights (Long)
From:	RexMarcius@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:56:53 EDT

Salve Tite Labiene!

I have read your post with great interest and it contains (IMHO mostly
correct) an in-depth analysis of the Nova Roma political system and its legal
expression in the Constitution. Please allow me to use it in my "Digestes" at
the Provincia Germania Website!

What still puzzles me, though, is the kind of antagonism that is interpreted
by some (not by you yourself!) into those two terms "Republic" and
"Democracy". In Political Science there is - to the best of my knowledge -
only a discussion about whether a Republic is simply the opposite of a
monarchy or whether it is to be understood more generally as a negation of
all kinds of despotism. Nowhere are those terms treated as "opposing" systems
of government. Did I understand you correctly that this is also what you
originally thought?

I guess anyway, that one should - for the purposes of the ongoing discussion
- not be bound by those terms. It seems far better to analyse -- as you so
elegantly do - the contents of our system along the lines you showed.

......and your arguments have indeed given me cause to think again about the
one thing which has always worried me in the context of the role of the
dictator in our constitution, namely that - unlike in the "old" constitution
before the Civil War - the acts of a dictator only have to be ratified by the
Senate and not by the people. As the Senate is not elected by the people and
its members serve for life, this is the one element that seems to clearly
distinguish our System from a real democracy AND a real republic, which is -
according to the definition which is known to me - a concept in close
connection to the concept of democracy.

I would prefer to see Nova Roma as a Democracy AND a Republic. Therefore I
would - maybe sometimes in the future - like to see a change in the
Constitution happen, which will give the people the final say about the acts
of a dictator. I only wish I had more word power in English to put this
request in a more polished way. You, Tite Labiene, with your posts could
certainly serve as a model for me with such a well put, persuasive and
intellectually acute argument. Congratulations

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Dementia?
From:	StarWreck@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:51:42 EDT

Salve

<< Despite all the satire and fun, the comparison wasn't entirely right.
There's a difference between feeling yourself a God and wanting a Cult than
simply feeling to be someone else. >>

A satire is meant to be more silly than the actual matter at hand. A good
satire is a comedy that really makes us see how something really is. I
remember the Star Trek episode "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" which
aired during the 60's. The storyline was about a war on a planet between
people who were black on their right side and white on the left aide, and
people who were black on their left side and white on their right side. The
crew could not tell the difference between the two peoples, and the idea
seemed very silly to the audience during the 60's and even more so now. The
underlying satire was how silly racism really is.

Vale
Iulius Titinius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Social Order among Cives
From:	StarWreck@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:02:47 EDT

In a message dated 7/18/00 2:29:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kminer_rsg@-------- writes:

<< We have
the Pats and Plebs, But I don't see a distinction between Senatorial Class,
Equestrian Order, etc... >>
Nova Roma, as I have read before on the website and in discussion before,
created the seperation between the Patrician Class and Plebian Class soley to
award recognition to the founding/original members.
In addition, I don't believe anyone has really given this much thought, the
division of the classes provides duplicates of just a few political offices
which has made the the duties of those offices less strenuous.
Whether you are plebian or patrician you have the same rights and
responsibilities.

Vale
Iulius Titinius

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Subject:	[novaroma] CONGRATULATIONS, AETERNIA DRACONIA!!!]
From:	LucillaCornelia@--------
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:03:09 -0400

Ave, Aeternia Draconia,

CONGRATULATIONS!!!  Best wishes for all good and great things on the occasion of your start with the Wildlife Conservation Society!  The Society is exceedingly fortunate to benefit from your committment and passion to heightening awareness and raising consciousness of the imperatives of conservation and promotion of wildlife issues.  Bona fortuna perpetua, dear sister!!!  

We are all so very proud of you and wish you the best in your continued noble efforts on behalf of Gaia's children.

Vale bene,

Lucilla Cornelia Aurelia Antonina
Moderator Pro Temps
Obstetrix, Delecti Expedire Partualis Sodalitas Musareum
Scriba Censorium

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Subject:	[novaroma] Colosseum reopens for performances
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:07:37 -0000

Article and pictures at:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TRAVEL/NEWS/07/17/italy.colosseum.ap/index.htm
l#1

Patricia Cassia



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Subject:	[novaroma] Translation: Fw: RIEVOCAZIONE DEL MERCATO DELLA CENTURIAZIONE ROMANA
From:	Guido Costantini <flyke@-------->
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:08:05 +0200

At 15.13 18/07/00 EDT, you wrote:
>Good Antonio,
>
>I'm having a hard enought time with latin, please just take me out back and
>shoot me!!! (just kidding)
>
>Can anyone translate these for us poor fools that got talked into taking
>Japanese in College??
>


>>
>>Vi inviamo il programma e una descrizione della nostra rievocazione di et`
>>Romana del 26-27 agosto 2000 in programma a Villadose (Rovigo)
>>Gruppo Archeologico di Villadose


"We send you the programme and the description of our re-enactment (I guess
a kind of market or the ryte of the centuriatio, isn't clear), 26-27 August
at Villadose (Province of Rovigo, Italy).

Archeological group of Villadose"

Th eprogram and description was anyway not present in the message posted in
this group so.. can't translate it...


Regards

Domitius Constantinus Fuscus
Pater Gentis Constantinae

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CLEMENTIA
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:09:00 -0400

Salve,

While I am loathe to delve into this discussion, I must address one point
made by Marcus Apollonius Formosanus. Speaking of Sulla, he wrote:

> It has earned resentment and suspicion for you among many in our
community, >>

I cordially suggest, sir, that you refrain from speaking on behalf of anyone
other than yourself. I have every confidence that others who may share your
"suspicion" are fully capable of making such known. However, to speak on
behalf of others (especially an alleged "many") who have not chosen.....by
and large....to make such statements themselves, is unwise. In point of
fact, doing so does little to advance your argument and could appear to be a
bit disingenuous.

As stated, I intend to keep my own counsel on the "Gender" discussion at
this time, I simply felt it was important to point out a breach of etiquette
in the post quoted.

Priscilla Vedia Serena


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Subject:	[novaroma] Roman bread
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:11:00 -0000

Thank you, Caius Flavius, for some interesting historical notes. Can
you tell us more about Roman bread? What did it taste like, and did
you get a chance to find out what was in it?

Patricia Cassia


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: From the Senior Consul
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:47:44 -0400

Salvete!

Several citizens, most recently the Senior Consul, have asserted that "Rome
was not a democracy; it was a republic" (or words to that effect).

This is a meaningless counterposition unless what is meant is "Rome was not
Democratic; it was Republican" (i.e. a statement within the the terms of US
party politics). A republic is a form of constitutional state which is not
a hereditary monarchy. Republics may be democracies, or oligarchies (rule
of a few) or even autocracies. Democracies are normally republics; modern
"democracies" which are monarchies are actually more complex forms of mixed
constitution. So democracies and republics are not opposites, unlike
Democrats and Republicans.

Polybius, followed in this by Cicero, characterised Roma Antiqua as having
a mixed constitution containing elements of monarchy (the magistrates), of
oligarchy (the Senate) and of democracy (the Comitia, whose role was
protected by the blocking powers of the tribunes). See Lintott, The
Constitution of the Roman Republic, Chs. 3 and 12 for discussion. So the
statement "Rome was not a democracy" falsifies by omission.

The claim that the ancient Romans had no concept of the rights of a citizen
is also quite false. The concept of rights descends to modern thinkers from
roman law via its medieval interpreters. It is true that the Roman
constitution was not built on the idea of fundamental rights in the same
way as eighteenth-century Whig concepts of the English constitution and, in
consequence, the US constitution. But this should also have limited
relevance to NOVA Roma. Like the British constitution, the Roman
constitution was an organic ad-hoc growth mostly consisting of customs and
conventions, not legal rules. Nova Roma has a written constitution, which
specifies certain rights possessed by citizens.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Democracy v. Republic; & Rights (Long)
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:01:29 -0500

Salve Marce Marci

> I have read your post with great interest and it contains (IMHO mostly
>
> correct) an in-depth analysis of the Nova Roma political system and
> its legal
> expression in the Constitution. Please allow me to use it in my
> "Digestes" at
> the Provincia Germania Website!

Thank you very much. You (and anyone else, for that matter) are quite
welcome to use anything I post to this list, as long as it is not done
maliciously and I am credited.

> What still puzzles me, though, is the kind of antagonism that is
> interpreted
> by some (not by you yourself!) into those two terms "Republic" and
> "Democracy". In Political Science there is - to the best of my
> knowledge -
> only a discussion about whether a Republic is simply the opposite of a
>
> monarchy or whether it is to be understood more generally as a
> negation of
> all kinds of despotism. Nowhere are those terms treated as "opposing"
> systems
> of government. Did I understand you correctly that this is also what
> you
> originally thought?

I do not see them as opposing systems. Indeed, the republic came about
as an attempt to curb the excesses of unchecked democracy (the tendency
of any system to proceed toward entropy) without adopting some more
oppressive form of governance. The line between a republic and a
representative democracy is an extremely blurry one.

The conflict you perceive is primarily between conservatives and
liberals in America. Some camps of conservatives hold that the American
republic is a dying animal, killed by liberals who are too idealistic to
realize that the world is a harsh place in which one can't accomodate
everyone. I'm grossly oversimplifying here, of course. Both sides are
complex, with equal measures of valid and invalid arguments.
Essentially, the words republic and democracy have become code words for
whole host of unrelated and emotion-laden ideas.

> ......and your arguments have indeed given me cause to think again
> about the
> one thing which has always worried me in the context of the role of
> the
> dictator in our constitution, namely that - unlike in the "old"
> constitution
> before the Civil War - the acts of a dictator only have to be ratified
> by the
> Senate and not by the people. As the Senate is not elected by the
> people and
> its members serve for life, this is the one element that seems to
> clearly
> distinguish our System from a real democracy AND a real republic,
> which is -
> according to the definition which is known to me - a concept in close
> connection to the concept of democracy.

I am not so worried about this as you seem to be, mainly because I've
seen our Senate in action. As long as the citizens elevated to that
body remain of the same caliber as those who are already there, a
dictator will only be appointed in the direst of situations, and only a
worthy person who truly cares about the Res Publica will fill the role.
In other words, be very, very careful who you elect as censores, cives!

> I would prefer to see Nova Roma as a Democracy AND a Republic.
> Therefore I
> would - maybe sometimes in the future - like to see a change in the
> Constitution happen, which will give the people the final say about
> the acts
> of a dictator.

Since a dictator is meant as a last-ditch effort to save the state after
all other organs of government have failed, I am not so sure this is
desirable. I'd prefer to see more language in the constitution
concerning the circumstances in which a dictator may be appointed.

Vale
T Labienus Fortunatus



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CLEMENTIA
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:41:20 +0100

Salve Lucia Cornelia

> Finally, ask yourself??? what would the ancient Romans have thought about
> women wanting to pass themselves off as men, or vice versa?

Read: MONTSERRAT, D: 'Reading Gender in the Roman World', pp. 153-181, from
HUSKINSON, J: 'Experiencing Rome: Culture, Identity and Power in the Roman
Empire (Routledge, 2000). I wonder how many of our fellow-cives have, since
I first suggested it when this debate first started?

Bene vale,

Vado.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] CONGRATULATIONS, AETERNIA DRACONIA!!!]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:44:45 -0700

Congrats Tink!!!! Good luck. :) I wish only the best for you.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

LucillaCornelia@-------- wrote:

> Ave, Aeternia Draconia,
>
> CONGRATULATIONS!!! Best wishes for all good and great things on the occasion of your start with the Wildlife Conservation Society! The Society is exceedingly fortunate to benefit from your committment and passion to heightening awareness and raising consciousness of the imperatives of conservation and promotion of wildlife issues. Bona fortuna perpetua, dear sister!!!
>
> We are all so very proud of you and wish you the best in your continued noble efforts on behalf of Gaia's children.
>
> Vale bene,
>
> Lucilla Cornelia Aurelia Antonina
> Moderator Pro Temps
> Obstetrix, Delecti Expedire Partualis Sodalitas Musareum
> Scriba Censorium
>
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