Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Morning Chat
From:	JustiniaCassia@--------
Date:	Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:49:38 EDT

It's okay, we all get a little flustrated at times.

Iustinia

<< Octavius wrote:

> why you douldn't get into it;

I suppose that word could be considered a portmanteau of "didn't" or
"couldn't", either of which is appropriate for what I meant. Actually,
it was a typo caused by insufficient levels of caffeine in my
brain-fluid. That situation is rapidly being rectified.

Vale, Octavius the dull-witted. >>


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Subject:	[novaroma] In et Ex Officio
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:28:42 GMT

EX DOMO PRPORAETORIS BRITANNIAE

Nicolaus Moravius Vado popularibus suis plurimam salutem dat
Nicolaus Moravius Vado gives his fellow-citizens many greetings)

The header here means: 'from the office of the propraetor of Britannia', and
it signifies that this communication is written in an official, rather than
a private, capacity.

It is my wish that all officers in the government of Provincia Britanniae
use similar official headings to identify their correspondence as expressing
official, rather than personal, views and opinions.

There have recently been several unfortunate misunderstandings on the NR
Main List as to whether some posts which citizens have found offensive were
directed to, or from, the person or the office. It is my hope and belief
that the practice of official headings for official correspondence will, if
generally adopted in NR, prevent such misunderstandings and ensuing
conflicts in future.

I therefore urge all priests, pontiffs, magistrates and other holders of
office in NR to adopt this practice (at least when posting to an entire
mailing list), in the interests of clarity and good dealing.

My public thanks to Procurator et Praefectus P. Claudius Lucentius Severus
Bicurratus for suggesting this.

Vado Propraetor etc.


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Military Salute
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:52:01 +0100

Salutem

My grateful thanks to A. Gryllus Graecus, M. Papirius Iustus and C. Flavius
Diocletianus
for their erudite replies to my enquiry. At the risk of boring everyone by
saying yet again what I've said more than once before, the sheer amount of
specialist knowledge a citizen can call upon in Nova Roma, at the touch of a
'send' button, is awesome, and I think this is both one of our greatest
assets and our greatest credit in the eyes of the outside world.

I am very glad to learn from a knowledgeable and devout devotee of the Lord
Mithras (Graecus, naturaliter) that he thinks a Mithraic ritual derivation
of a Roman military salute to be unlikely; and the relatively early
(Augustan) date of the Ahenobarban altar seems to confirm this - although I
believe the cult was introduced to Rome by Cilician prisoners taken by
Pompeius Magnus in 68 BCE. But that's assuming that the soldier shown IS
actually saluting.

Diocletianus' sources I will have to check for myself, unless, mi Cai Flavi,
you would be kind enough to look up any ancient sources cited in the books
for the illustrations you mentioned?

And I agree with Iustus' critical reservations about what the military
figure is actually doing with his right hand raised to the crown of his
helmet. All the central figures on the altar appear to be sacrificing in the
direction in which the viewer is standing: towards, as it were, the cult
image of the god. It is therefore perfectly possible that our man with the
scutum is making a gesture of 'adoratio' (kissing the fingertips of the
right hand, then raising the hand upwards and outwards, then downwards).

Perhaps again, the Roman military salute (IF it existed in a form similar to
the modern military salute) derived from the 'adoratio' in a truncated
form - though I admit, I can't imagine a legionary blowing his centurion a
kiss!

And then again, as Diocletianus points out, there is more than one salute in
anybody's army: if you are holding a weapon, you salute with the weapon,
usually by presenting it in a forward, frontal position and raising it
towards the head (cf. the salute modern fencers employ with their foils on
the piste).

Also, the Ahenobarban altar shows (as far as I can see) at least three other
figures in Army kit who are NOT 'saluting', and the 'saluting' soldier is
not facing any of them, but in the direction in which the sacrifice is
oriented.

I echo the request for any primary visual evidence of a group of soldiers
ostensibly making a ritual gesture of deference toward an obvious superior.
Does anyone have access to complete pictures of Traian's Column? That might
be a good place to start looking.

Bene valete,

N. Moravius Vado.

>If you look at it, it would appear the soldier is saluting; I'm sure it
>would especially look like that if someone looked just at the soldier. But
>one *has* to ask, who is he supposed to be saluting? The only reason this
>is interpreted as a salute is because that's what a salute looks like in
>*our* culture. In the context of the altar, the gesture might simply mean
>the sun is rising or it might even mean the guy's simply adjusting his
>helmet. I'd be interested in knowing other supposed illustrations of this
>'salute' (I'm nowhere near J. right now).
>
>Has anyone ever seen an image where a *group* of soldiers are
>simultaneously making the gesture towards an obvious commanding officer?




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Military Salute
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:06:53 +0200

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.

N. Novarius, I have access to drawings from Traians´column. They are depicted in
Y. Le Bohecs book "Die römische Armee" (german issue, you see).

I found two pictures showing soldiers making the cavalry´s salute: Scene LVII
and scene LXIII. They are raising the right hand.

In this book there is also a photo from a statue of a miles legionis, now in the
Strassbourg Museum. It shows the soldier laying his right hand to the rim of his
helmet. It´s interpreted by Le Bohec as saluting soldier. Dr. Boris Rankov,
author of the Praetorians volume of Men at Arms Elite, writes to Plate I
(praetorian infantry) " The centurion gives his commander the infantry salute,
raising the right hand to the helmet, palm inwards: This is shown on a number of
reliefs, including the funerary monument of Flavius Mikkalus recently
unearthened in Turkey".

To Plate G (Equites Singulares Augusti) he writes: "A trooper of the emperors
horse guards ... reports his decurion ... . The trooper greets his officer with
the cavalry salute of the extended right arm".

I´m sorry, N. Moravius, I have no access to the primary and secondary sources
listed in this MAA book. I also have not all my books available at this moment,
but I promise you a further look into my library.

Hope, I could help.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus

Nick Ford schrieb:

> Salutem
>
> My grateful thanks to A. Gryllus Graecus, M. Papirius Iustus and C. Flavius
> Diocletianus
> for their erudite replies to my enquiry. At the risk of boring everyone by
> saying yet again what I've said more than once before, the sheer amount of
> specialist knowledge a citizen can call upon in Nova Roma, at the touch of a
> 'send' button, is awesome, and I think this is both one of our greatest
> assets and our greatest credit in the eyes of the outside world.
>
> I am very glad to learn from a knowledgeable and devout devotee of the Lord
> Mithras (Graecus, naturaliter) that he thinks a Mithraic ritual derivation
> of a Roman military salute to be unlikely; and the relatively early
> (Augustan) date of the Ahenobarban altar seems to confirm this - although I
> believe the cult was introduced to Rome by Cilician prisoners taken by
> Pompeius Magnus in 68 BCE. But that's assuming that the soldier shown IS
> actually saluting.
>
> Diocletianus' sources I will have to check for myself, unless, mi Cai Flavi,
> you would be kind enough to look up any ancient sources cited in the books
> for the illustrations you mentioned?
>
> And I agree with Iustus' critical reservations about what the military
> figure is actually doing with his right hand raised to the crown of his
> helmet. All the central figures on the altar appear to be sacrificing in the
> direction in which the viewer is standing: towards, as it were, the cult
> image of the god. It is therefore perfectly possible that our man with the
> scutum is making a gesture of 'adoratio' (kissing the fingertips of the
> right hand, then raising the hand upwards and outwards, then downwards).
>
> Perhaps again, the Roman military salute (IF it existed in a form similar to
> the modern military salute) derived from the 'adoratio' in a truncated
> form - though I admit, I can't imagine a legionary blowing his centurion a
> kiss!
>
> And then again, as Diocletianus points out, there is more than one salute in
> anybody's army: if you are holding a weapon, you salute with the weapon,
> usually by presenting it in a forward, frontal position and raising it
> towards the head (cf. the salute modern fencers employ with their foils on
> the piste).
>
> Also, the Ahenobarban altar shows (as far as I can see) at least three other
> figures in Army kit who are NOT 'saluting', and the 'saluting' soldier is
> not facing any of them, but in the direction in which the sacrifice is
> oriented.
>
> I echo the request for any primary visual evidence of a group of soldiers
> ostensibly making a ritual gesture of deference toward an obvious superior.
> Does anyone have access to complete pictures of Traian's Column? That might
> be a good place to start looking.
>
> Bene valete,
>
> N. Moravius Vado.
>
> >If you look at it, it would appear the soldier is saluting; I'm sure it
> >would especially look like that if someone looked just at the soldier. But
> >one *has* to ask, who is he supposed to be saluting? The only reason this
> >is interpreted as a salute is because that's what a salute looks like in
> >*our* culture. In the context of the altar, the gesture might simply mean
> >the sun is rising or it might even mean the guy's simply adjusting his
> >helmet. I'd be interested in knowing other supposed illustrations of this
> >'salute' (I'm nowhere near J. right now).
> >
> >Has anyone ever seen an image where a *group* of soldiers are
> >simultaneously making the gesture towards an obvious commanding officer?
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] 3rd century Legions
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:35:10 +0200

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.


Another question to our military historians.

Much is written about our famous ancient legions. One peak was reached
under Septimius Severus, when 33 legions were established. But, as much
we know about the legions of this time and the time before, as little is
know about the further developement in the 3rd century. So it´s
mentioned that the Legio III Augusta in North Africa was disbanded by
Gordianus.

Some of my primary books about the later roman army are:
M. N. Nicasie: Twilight of Empire, Amsterdam 1998,
P. Southern and K. R. Dixon: The Late Roman Army, New Haven and London,
1996
R. S. Cromwell: The Rise and Decline of the Late Roman Field Army,
Shippensburg 1998,
B. Filow: Die Legionen der Provinz Moesia, Leipzig 1906.

I´m very sorry, I have no access to the Notitia Dignitatum. But perhaps
a fellow citizen have.

Nicasie writes that the numbers of legions slowly increased during the
3rd century up to about 60 when Diocletian came to power. The main
question now is:

Which legions were raised during the 3rd Century and by Diocletian?

Some are known:

I Illyrica (or Illyricorum)
IV Martia (both Aurelian)

I Iovia
II Herculia
VI Herculia
III Diocletiana
I Pontica
I Martia

Some legions were drafted form exisiting units or newly established
(without a number):
Ioviani
Herculiani
Divitenses
Solenses

Is it possible that if there were 2 Legions as II Herculia and VI
Herculia, that there were also a I, III, IV and V Herculia (also
possible for the units called Martia)?

I´m very grateful for any help.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Military Salute
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:52:20 -0600

Salve,

At 01:06 PM 7/29/00 +0200, you wrote:
>Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
>N. Novarius, I have access to drawings from Traians´column. They are
>depicted in
>Y. Le Bohecs book "Die römische Armee" (german issue, you see).

Whoops! I forgot I owned this ... now we are looking at something ...


>I found two pictures showing soldiers making the cavalry´s salute: Scene LVII
>and scene LXIII. They are raising the right hand.

Yes they are. Very interesting stuff, but I still remain skeptical
primarily because of the context: it is the allocutio scene at the end of a
campaign (Decebalus has surrendered and the Dacias have destroyed their
fortifications) (LVII) and or a sacrifice during a triumphal procession
(LXIII). They're both occasions when there would be general "Ave's" going
to the emperor. One sees the same gesture in the sacrifice going on after
another battle and crossing of the river (LXXII), but note that it doesn't
occur in the sacrifices which precede the setting up of camp (LXXVIII). It
is also worth noting, however, that it doesn't occur in non-victory
allocutio contexts (VIII, XXXII (the battle isn't over), XXXVIII,
LXXVIX, LXXIX, CIII. It also appears to occur in the only 'adventus' scene
(another 'Ave' situation), which is Trajan's apparent arrival in Italy (?)
LX. It is further worth noting that this same gesture is made by
surrendering Dacians: LV, LVI, XCV, CV.

To take this outside of Trajan's column, one can look at the so-called
Cancellaria Reliefs and see an image of the senate and an image of the
genius of the Roman people making the same gesture to Domitian as he's
being 'pushed' into war and is departing (another Ave situation, obviously)
(the image is in Hanfmann's *Roman Art*). There is also an image on the
arch of Constantine wherein the emperor is giving some sort of beneficium
to the Roman people and several obviously not military types are making the
gesture (sorry, I can't find a decent picture of this one ... there is one
in Hanfmann, but I've seen better).

Similar things of this sort can be found on the column of Marcus Aurelius
but again, I can't find decent images at hand or on the web (in case you
were wondering, years ago I wrote a paper on the adlocutio gesture in Roman
art)

Whatever the case, this so-called 'cavalry salute' strikes me as a simple
greeting which is not necessarily military in nature; it is probably tied
to the emperor, but we also see civilians do it.


>In this book there is also a photo from a statue of a miles legionis, now
>in the
>Strassbourg Museum. It shows the soldier laying his right hand to the rim
>of his
>helmet. It´s interpreted by Le Bohec as saluting soldier. Dr. Boris Rankov,
>author of the Praetorians volume of Men at Arms Elite, writes to Plate I
>(praetorian infantry) " The centurion gives his commander the infantry salute,
>raising the right hand to the helmet, palm inwards: This is shown on a
>number of
>reliefs, including the funerary monument of Flavius Mikkalus recently
>unearthened in Turkey".

Outside of the image in LeBohec, which is definitely interesting, I'd like
to see more images of this type (it strikes me as very Monty Pythonesque,
which would be interesting) ... I'll see what I can find.

Side question: I looked at some of these Men at Arms volumes in the past
(unfortunately the store didn't have any ancient ones), but my impression
was that the images were drawings, not photographs of monuments etc.. Does
the above-mentioned volume have photos of artifacts?

mpj



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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman Military Salute
From:	"Lucius" <vergil@-------->
Date:	Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:34:10 -0400

Lucius Equitius Quiritibus SPD

I found something else in "The Imperial Roman Army" by Yann Le Bohec,
ISBN 0-7818-0259-8

Pg. XXIII (a page of plates at the very end of the drawing of Trajan's column found in the middle of the book on 'glossy' pages)
plate 15b. "b) Legionary saluting (early first century AD). Note the corselet, helmet and shield (terracotta figure, Strasbourg Museum)."

The picture is of what appears to be a small (no scale shown) broken figure with his right hand raised to his temple while wearing a stylized helmet. He has his sword hanging on the left and the shield, leaning on his left leg, is oval.

I have heard many theories on the evolution of the salute, I am retired from the military, and the common story is of the doffing of the cap. There were many rules that had to be observed concerning when, where and how to salute. I always wondered why it was done in the beginning, before men wore caps. Could it have been a gesture of "I hear you, understand and will obey" (it can be difficult to hear with a helmet on)? I was taught in the Navy to repeat an order verbatim and in Navy tradition say "Aye, Aye, Sir", Thus, "Make my course 245 degrees, speed 18 knots, Aye, Aye, Sir!" This way we were all clear on what was to be done. Very ritualistic and traditional, nothing at all like the Romans ;-)
...just an idea, too bad the figures and statues don't talk.... I'd listen.

Valete


From: Marcus Pap--------s Justus <pap--------s@-------->
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2000 10:45am
Subject: Re: Roman Military Salute


Salve,


At 01:06 PM 7/29/00 +0200, you wrote:
Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.
N. Novarius, I have access to drawings from Traians´column. They are depicted in Y. Le Bohecs book "Die römische Armee" (german issue, you see).




Whoops! I forgot I owned this ... now we are looking at something ...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Military Salute
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:47:59 +0200

Salvete Omnes,

Sorry, M. Papirius Iustus, but my sources ran dry. I took some further looks into
my books, but I found no further pictorials.

Some further notes:


> >I found two pictures showing soldiers making the cavalry´s salute: Scene LVII
> >and scene LXIII. They are raising the right hand.
>
> Yes they are. Very interesting stuff, but I still remain skeptical
> primarily because of the context: it is the allocutio scene at the end of a
> campaign (Decebalus has surrendered and the Dacias have destroyed their
> fortifications) (LVII) and or a sacrifice during a triumphal procession
> (LXIII). They're both occasions when there would be general "Ave's" going
> to the emperor.

Of course an Adlocutio. The rosen right hand is also used by some emperors statues,
So it can be said, that the rosen right arm was a common army (and also private?)
salute. Remember, during the 17th and 18th century the soldiers saluted their
superiors by drawing their hats, as the civilians did.

> One sees the same gesture in the sacrifice going on after
> another battle and crossing of the river (LXXII), but note that it doesn't
> occur in the sacrifices which precede the setting up of camp (LXXVIII). It
> is also worth noting, however, that it doesn't occur in non-victory
> allocutio contexts (VIII, XXXII (the battle isn't over), XXXVIII,
> LXXVIX, LXXIX, CIII. It also appears to occur in the only 'adventus' scene
> (another 'Ave' situation), which is Trajan's apparent arrival in Italy (?)
> LX. It is further worth noting that this same gesture is made by
> surrendering Dacians: LV, LVI, XCV, CV.

Yes, that´s right.

> To take this outside of Trajan's column, one can look at the so-called
> Cancellaria Reliefs and see an image of the senate and an image of the
> genius of the Roman people making the same gesture to Domitian as he's
> being 'pushed' into war and is departing (another Ave situation, obviously)
> (the image is in Hanfmann's *Roman Art*). There is also an image on the
> arch of Constantine wherein the emperor is giving some sort of beneficium
> to the Roman people and several obviously not military types are making the
> gesture (sorry, I can't find a decent picture of this one ... there is one
> in Hanfmann, but I've seen better).
>
> Similar things of this sort can be found on the column of Marcus Aurelius
> but again, I can't find decent images at hand or on the web (in case you
> were wondering, years ago I wrote a paper on the adlocutio gesture in Roman
> art)

Oh, that´s interesting. The "Ave"situation is also a common situation for a
military salute. Another common situation is the report to a superior. This is,
imho, a similar situation, so it seems possible that the "Ave"-situation can be
generalized to military saluting situations.

> Whatever the case, this so-called 'cavalry salute' strikes me as a simple
> greeting which is not necessarily military in nature; it is probably tied
> to the emperor, but we also see civilians do it.

My opinion, see above. I overread this paragraph, excuse me.

> >In this book there is also a photo from a statue of a miles legionis, now
> >in the
> >Strassbourg Museum. It shows the soldier laying his right hand to the rim
> >of his
> >helmet. It´s interpreted by Le Bohec as saluting soldier. Dr. Boris Rankov,
> >author of the Praetorians volume of Men at Arms Elite, writes to Plate I
> >(praetorian infantry) " The centurion gives his commander the infantry salute,
> >raising the right hand to the helmet, palm inwards: This is shown on a
> >number of
> >reliefs, including the funerary monument of Flavius Mikkalus recently
> >unearthened in Turkey".
>
> Outside of the image in LeBohec, which is definitely interesting, I'd like
> to see more images of this type (it strikes me as very Monty Pythonesque,
> which would be interesting) ... I'll see what I can find.

It would interest me, too. It´s good to meet a man with a similar humor than I
have. It´s a good comparison, "Monthy Python" :-)).

> Side question: I looked at some of these Men at Arms volumes in the past
> (unfortunately the store didn't have any ancient ones), but my impression
> was that the images were drawings, not photographs of monuments etc.. Does
> the above-mentioned volume have photos of artifacts?

No, it haven´t. I was very disappointed about this. My only photos of artefacts are
that of the altar of Ahenobarbus and that of the "Monty Python" soldier mentioned
above.

It´s very disappointing, that the sources regarding our topic are so low. But it
seems that the ancient authors and artists n thought that their fellow citizens
were familiar with the soldiers´ salute (as with soldiers equipment, tactics etc.),
because the romans were a very militant people during earlier times.

Bene Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman Military Salute
From:	DTibbe2926@--------
Date:	Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:03:38 EDT

I've got 'Trajan's Column' by Frank Lepper and Sheppard Frere. This contains
all the photographs made by Conrad Cichorius of the casts made for Napoleon
III with commentaries and notes on what each scene represents.

Do the scene numbers listed in Bohec's book concord with Cichorius? I've
looked at the scenes listed in other postings and cannot see anything that
looks like a salute.

I suppose we may have to be careful with using Trajan's Column. With all the
weapons missing arms appear to waving around for no apparent reason.

P C L Severus

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