Subject:	[novaroma] Porphyry: the Royal Stone in Roman Life
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 2000 02:50:03 +0200

Salvete Omnes!

I thought that this archaeological article on porphyry
(the stone) in the Roman world was really fascinating.
Enjoy!

http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/0900toc/9feature1-emperors.shtml

Valete!

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Scriba Censorius
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Something from Memory Lane
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:33:39 EDT

Salve Aeternia

Interesting. I memorized the "preface" to this back in high school,
although at this late date I cannot recall why I did so. However I still
recall it (I think) today, almost 40 years later.

After the assassins have left the scene and before the funeral, Antonius
addresses Caesar's corpse:

Oh pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
That I am meek and gentle with these butchers.
Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
That ever lived in the tide of times.
Woe to the hand that shed thy costly blood!
Over thy wounds now do I prophesy,
That like dumb mouths do ope' their ruby lips
To beg the voice that utters from my tongue -
A curse shall light upon the limbs of Man.
Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
Shall cumber all the parts of Italy.
Death and destruction shall be so common,
And dreadful objects so in use,
That mothers will but smile
As they behold their infants quartered at the hands of War,
All pity choked in custom of foul deed.
And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from Hell,
Shall in these confines, with a monarch's voice, cry Havoc!
Havoc, and let slip the dogs of war,
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
Of carion men, groaning for burial.


Then Antonius goes on to instigate the fulfillment of his own prophecies
in his funeral oration, by inciting the populace against the assassins.

As they say, thanks for the memories. :-)

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 8/9/00 11:44 PM Little Dragon (fionaerin@--------) wrote:

>Ave Omnes,
>
>Tonight I had a wonderful phone chat with Pompeia Cornelia Strabo,
>during the conversation my all time favorite playwright William
>Shakespeare was mentioned. Back in high school I had to recite the
>funeral speech of Julius Caesar you know the one Marcus Antonius
>(Marc Antony) had made. I discovered tonight I still have most it
>memorized, I was wondering if anyone else still remembers it. In the
>following execerpt contains the famous funeral speech that was made,
>lines 83-115. I hope you all enjoy it!!
>
>Vale
>Aeternia
>
>
>The Funeral Speech
>-------------------
>
> Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
> I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
> The evil that men do lives after them;
> The good is oft interred with their bones;
> So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
> Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
> If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
> And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
> Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
> For Brutus is an honourable man;
> So are they all, all honourable men--
> Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
> He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
> But Brutus says he was ambitious;
> And Brutus is an honourable man.
> He hath brought many captives home to Rome
> Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
> Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
> When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
> Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
> Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
> And Brutus is an honourable man.
> You all did see that on the Lupercal
> I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
> Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
> Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
> And, sure, he is an honourable man.
> I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
> But here I am to speak what I do know.
> You all did love him once, not without cause:
> What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
> O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
> And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
> My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
> And I must pause till it come back to me.


sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

(I think some people in togas are plotting against me.)


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Subject:	[novaroma] NR Practical Latin 5: Pronunciation I
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:45:53 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Civibus Omnibus Novae Romae S.P.D.

In our first lesson we learned how to use informal
greetings:

Salve (sing.) or Salvete (pl.) + ADDRESSEE (Vocative)

And we learned that the Vocative is just like the basic
Nominative except for names ending in -US, and that the
rules for changing those were:

-US > -E [O Marce!]
-IUS > -I [O Apolloni!]
-AUS > -AË (two syllables) [O Nicolae!]

In our second lesson we learned how to make the traditional
salutation in letters:

SENDER (Nominative) + RECIPIENT (Dative) + S.P.D.

We learned how to make the Dative from the Nominative by
these rules:

-A > -AE [To Sulla, Maria:
Sullae, Mariae]
-US > -O [To Marcus,
Merullus: Marco, Merullo]
-OR > -ORI [To Censor, Praetor:
Censori, Praetori]
-AUS > -AO (two syllables) [To Nicolaus: Nicolao]

In Lesson 3 we learned how to make Latin plurals.

The most common pluralising formulae were noted as being:

-A > -AE
-US > -US or -ÚS (Use a dictionary to make sure which.)
-UM > -A
-IS > -ES
-ES > -ES or -EI (Use a dictionary to make sure which.)
-U > -UA

(There are some exceptions to the above.)

In Lesson 4 we learned how to make a few more social
expressions:

Salvus sis!, Salvi sitis!, Salva sis!, Salvae sitis!
Gratias (maximas) Tibi ago!
Bonum iter Tibi exopto!

We had the following homework exercise. If you have not done
it yet, do it now *before* looking at the answers below.

Translate into Latin:

1. I wish you a good night.

2. We wish you (sing.) a happy Saturnalia.

3. I wish you (plural) a good trip.

4. We wish Marcus a good trip.

5. I wish you (plural) a nice vacation.

6. I wish you (sing.) a happy holy day.

7. We wish you (plural) good night.

8. I thank you (sing.) very much.

9. I thank you (plural).

10. We thank you (plural).

Here are the answers. Note that the word order is *not*
important. The endings of the words are.

1. I wish you a good night.
Bonam noctem Tibi exopto.

2. We wish you (sing.) a happy Saturnalia.
Bona Saturnalia Tibi exoptamus.

3. I wish you (plural) a good trip.
Iter bonum Vobis exopto.

4. We wish Marcus a good trip.
Iter bonum Marco exoptamus.

5. I wish you (plural) a nice vacation.
Ferias bonas Vobis exopto.

6. I wish you (sing.) a happy holy day.
Tibi festum bonum exopto.

7. We wish you (plural) good night.
Bonam noctem Vobis exoptamus.

8. I thank you (sing.) very much.
Gratias maximas Tibiago.

9. I thank you (plural).
Gratias Vobis ago.

10. We thank you (plural).
Gratias Vobis agimus.

If you had trouble with this, go back and study Lesson 4
again. If that does not help, please feel free to contact me
privately with your questions.
__________________________________

In this lesson we are going to learn about Latin
pronunciation, starting with the vowels.

Now this may be a slightly emotional topic. As cives of Nova
Roma naturally are intensely interested in Rome, and the
names and terminology connected with Rome in most cases have
been learned in childhood or in high school, and presumably
a great deal of the love of Rome that we feel is tied up
emotionally with the pronunciations that we each are used
to. It has its associations.

I am, let me say therefore, not trying to *force* you to
change your customary, familiar pronunciation if you do not
want to. I would, however, like to make you familiar with
the system most active uses now consider best and most
authentic, and to clarify for you exactly what some of the
other pronunciations are. It would be nice if you could be
bidialectical in pronunciation, being able to pronounce
Latin words at your pleasure in your familiar way or in the
more standard way, as circumstances dictate.

Now Latin pronunciation has always been changing, as is
normal with human languages. The earliest that normally
interests us is that of the Late Republic, spoken by Cicero.
By the Late Western Empire the sounds had already changed a
good deal, and still more in the Middle Ages and
Renaissance. And the changes in sound were different in
different parts of Europe. The standard traditional Latin
pronunciations in Portugal, Bavaria, Germany (outside
Bavaria), Italy, Poland, and England, just for an example,
are all diverse. In Romanian a final -US is pronounced -USH
for example. And in Poland the Latin -US is not so
pronounced, but names taken from Latin into Polish are both
spelled and pronounced that way, e.g. "Mariusz". On the
other hand, the English pronunciation of the vowels - E
like I and I like AE - makes it one of the hardest for
Latinists of other countries to understand.

In the English-speaking world there are normally three
pronunciations found:

1. The traditional English:
In this one "cives" for example is pronounced "sihveez".
This is normal and even preferable for isolated Latin
expressions like "sine die" and "pro tempore". It is also
used for scientific terms and for plant names by gardeners.
It is rarely taught in America in Latin courses, however,
although it was in Britain. It really should be reserved for
isolated use in an English context, not for whole sentences
in Latin.

2. The Italianate Ecclesiastical:
In this one "cives" is pronounced "cheevays". In other
countries the Ecclesiastical pronunciation is different. In
Rome the Pope says "cheevays" but back home in the Polish
church "seevays". This is sometimes taught in U.S. parochial
schools, and it is used very often for singing mediaeval
songs and chants, for which it shares the exceptional beauty
of the Italian tongue.

3. The Restored Pronuntiation:
German and other scholars reconstructed the original
pronunciation of classical latin in the 19th and 20th
centuries. It has now long been normal in U.S. public
schools. (Not so in many European schools, however!) It is
said that if one returned by time machine to ancient Rome,
Cicero would surely undeerstand us speaking in this mode,
although he would probably think our accent rather strange.
In this rather "harder" pronunciation "cives" is "keewayss"

Because of its authenticity as the pronunciation of the
classical period and because of its unifying effect on the
modern Latin language, most European and American proponents
of Living Latin strongly support the use of this
pronunciation.

The Sodalitas Latinitatis of Nova Roma has not yet made a
recommendation on this matter, but it seems highly probable
that the Sodalitas will choose to support the Restored
Pronunciation. It is essentially the pronunciation of the
period of Roman history that we are most interested in and
it alligns us with other restorers of the Latin tongue to
practical use.

The following introduction, therefore, will be to the
pronunciation of this "Pronuntiatus Restitutus" or
"Pronuntiatio Restituta".
__________________________

Vowels

Latin has twelve simple vowel sounds. They are arranged in
six pairs. In each pair there is a long version and a short
version of the vowel. This "long" and "short" refer in the
first place to how long in time we pronounce the vowel for.
This is the "quantity" of the vowel. Most (but not all) of
the vowels are also different in "quality", that is to say,
the actual nature of the sound itself. The marked vowels
below are long:

a like "hat" in German or a very short A as in "father"
á like "father"
e like E in "let"
é like A in "say" or like French "été"
i like I in "pin"
í like I in "machine"
o like O in "caught"
ó like OA in "float", but without the U sound at the end

u like OO in "foot", "book" or "good"
ú like U in "flute"
y like German Ü or French U (short)
ý like German Ü or French U (long)

Note that English "long A" and "long O" are really
diphthongs - two vowels blended together in one syllable. In
Latin and English long A would be spelled "EI" and English
long O "OU". The Latin vowels above are pure monophthongs.
The speech organs should be more or less frozen from
beginning to end.

The Y represents the Greek Upsilon and is used in Greek loan
words. It is made as in French, German and Mandarin by
pronouncing an "ee" inside the mouth, while pronouncing an
"oo" (as it "boot") with the lips. If it is really too hard,
then substitute the Latin I sounds.

Be careful of short U. In English when we say "Marcus" or
"Coloseum", the U is changed to a neutral schwa sound. In
Latin the lips are rounded and it is the OO of "look" in
Mar-koos and Kolose-oom. Likewise in "consul". In accented
syllables we must also be careful. "Sulla"does *not* sound
like "sullen". That is the sound of U in "up" which does not
exist in Latin. Rather it is "oo". "Cum" is likewise *not*
like "come" (unless one has a Northern England or Scotch
accent, in which case it is a perfect match).

Remember that each vowel is pronounced relatively clearly in
Latin compared to English, even in unaccented syllables.

You might wonder about how to know which vowels are long and
which are short. Answer: A good beginning text will mark
them for you. Most books use a "macron" (a long bar) over
the long vowels, and sometimes (not often) a "breve" (the
bottom part of a circle, like a smile) over the short. The
acute accent mark used here indicates a long vowel. It has
the advantage that everyone has it in his screen font and it
looks just like the "apex" (plural "apices") used by the
Romans themselves sometimes (but never consistently) to mark
long vowels.

Otherwise you must use a dictionary. Fortunately many
endings have their typical vowel lengths, and if you know
the root, you will normally know the vowel quantities for
the whole family of words. There are also other tricks.
However, most speakers are careless about the quatities in
completely unaccented syllables, which makes it easier. But
do try to learn carefilly now in the beginning.

Now, for the diphthongs of Latin:

ae a + e or like a + i as in "eye"
oe o + e or like OI in "oil"
au a + u or like OU in "house"
eu e + u No English equivalent. As in Greek, Esperanto
and Polish
ei e + i like "say"

Originally AE was spelled AI, and this was changed. That
suggests that the sound too changed from a true AI sound
like "pie" to a sound like a Japanese AE as in "kaeru". Most
modern scholars pronounce it like AI, however, so you may
take your choice. In later Latin the sound of AE and OE
changed to é, with or without a change in spelling.

EU is not like the "oi" sound of German as in "Europa" or
the sound of French "Europe" or English "Europe". It is a
Latin short E plus a more shortly pronounced short U blended
into one syllable.

Here are some words to practice on. All unmarked vowels
except in diphthongs are short. Marked vowels are long.

Marcus, Sulla, Rómánus, Rómánae, saepe (often - short final
E, so not like "pay"!), ita (yes, so - short I so like "it"
not like "eat"!), síc (yes, so - like "seek", not "sick"!),
proelium (battle), Colosséum (not "uhm"! The first part like
"call loss say".), Európa (3 syllables, EU *not* like "you"
and not like "OI"!), caupóna (inn, pub - not "oh-oo", but a
pure O!), Graecia (Greece), viri (men - like "weary"),
Caesar (kai-sar), lyra (lyre), Lýdia (Lydia), Ítalia ("ee"!
And accent on second syllable!), aut (or - like "out"),
lautum (elegant, not "tuhm", but "toom"!), núbés (cloud -
"noo -bays", "noo" like "Sue".)

In the next lesson we shall learn the consonants and word
accent.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any special
problems or questions.

Valete!

-------------------------------------------
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Scriba Censorius
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049
Gens Apollonia: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
________________________________________________________

Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Porphyry: the Royal Stone in Roman Life
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:28:37 -0400

A very interesting article, although I was a bit peeved by one of the
author's comments. I have a few questions about Mr. Werner's statement that
"The work facing Rome's mostly Christian slaves - the miserable thousands
who were damnati ad metalla ("condemned to the mines") - involved more than
mere quarrying". What does he mean by "Rome's mostly Christian
slaves...blah, blah," ? Maybe I am being oversensitive to this, having
recently completed a course on Greek and Roman Slavery, but to me, that
comment makes it sound as if the Romans went out of there way to enslave
exclusively Christians (akin to the Egyptian enslavement of the Hebrews).
What period is he talking about here, for one thing? I mean, perhaps I
could swallow that statement if he's talking about a much later period of
the Empire where Christianity is the official state religion and the
majority of people, in general, are Christians (it's certainly not as if
Christianity abolished or even ameliorated slavery). But in the article he
doesn't even mention any dates past 119 AD. And what sources does he think
he getting this from?
Ah, well, he is a filmmaker by trade...

What do other people think?

-Lauria Maria


----- Original Message -----
From: M. Apollonius Formosanus <bvm3@-------->
To: novaroma <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 8:50 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Porphyry: the Royal Stone in Roman Life


> Salvete Omnes!
>
> I thought that this archaeological article on porphyry
> (the stone) in the Roman world was really fascinating.
> Enjoy!
>
> http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/0900toc/9feature1-emperors.shtml
>
> Valete!
>
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae
> Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis
> Scriba Censorius
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> ICQ# 61698049 Gens Apollonia:
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> AVE RESPVBLICA LIBERA NOSTRA - NOVA ROMA!
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> [Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
> ________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Porphyry: the Royal Stone in Roman Life
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 2000 13:04:48 -0000

Remember our recent conversation about how far the "military step"
was and how far the legions could march in a day? The author of this
article mentioned the hydreumata, fortified wells "a day's march
apart." Wish he'd said how far that was...

P. Cassia


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: socks
From:	" Sheridan" <legioix@-------->
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:50:42 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "G. Bagne" <gkbagne@h...> wrote:
> From Lapella to All, Greetings!
> I have read that some Romans wore socks in the winter. I've seen a
> picture of a surviving Coptic period sock from Egypt, but I can't
> seem to find out how it was constructed:cut fabric? 1 needle
knitting
> (nalebinding)? 2 needle knitting? Does anybody have any sources?
I'd
> appreciate any help.Thanks Be Well(imperative!)

Off the top of my head...

A small folded "booty" was found in a Roman context at Vindolonda.
It's
a plaid rectangle folded into a square then folded to fit around a
foot, and sewn to hold the shape.

Soldier's letter from Egypt asking Mom to send more socks

Hibernicus
Legio IX Hispana



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: socks
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:04:34 -0400 (EDT)

At Roman Days two years ago, this is the kind of sock that I wore. A
square of black wool, folded around the foot and held in place with the
Roman Boot. My socks were not sewn as they were an experiment. They
worked pretty well actually. One of the points of the square was folded
back over the toes and the side points were brought up in front of the
ankle and tied in the back. The rear point was folded over the knot.
It does take a little getting used to though.

Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Something from Memory Lane
From:	"Little Dragon" <fionaerin@-------->
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:48:26 -0000

---Ave Sergius,

Thank you for adding some memories :-).


Vale
Aeternia






In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> Salve Aeternia
>
> Interesting. I memorized the "preface" to this back in high school,
> although at this late date I cannot recall why I did so. However I
still
> recall it (I think) today, almost 40 years later.
>
> After the assassins have left the scene and before the funeral,
Antonius
> addresses Caesar's corpse:
>
> Oh pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
> That I am meek and gentle with these butchers.
> Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
> That ever lived in the tide of times.
> Woe to the hand that shed thy costly blood!
> Over thy wounds now do I prophesy,
> That like dumb mouths do ope' their ruby lips
> To beg the voice that utters from my tongue -
> A curse shall light upon the limbs of Man.
> Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
> Shall cumber all the parts of Italy.
> Death and destruction shall be so common,
> And dreadful objects so in use,
> That mothers will but smile
> As they behold their infants quartered at the hands of War,
> All pity choked in custom of foul deed.
> And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge,
> With Ate by his side come hot from Hell,
> Shall in these confines, with a monarch's voice, cry Havoc!
> Havoc, and let slip the dogs of war,
> That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
> Of carion men, groaning for burial.
>
>
> Then Antonius goes on to instigate the fulfillment of his own
prophecies
> in his funeral oration, by inciting the populace against the
assassins.
>
> As they say, thanks for the memories. :-)
>
> Vale,
>
> L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
> On 8/9/00 11:44 PM Little Dragon (fionaerin@--------) wrote:
>
> >Ave Omnes,
> >
> >Tonight I had a wonderful phone chat with Pompeia Cornelia Strabo,
> >during the conversation my all time favorite playwright William
> >Shakespeare was mentioned. Back in high school I had to recite the
> >funeral speech of Julius Caesar you know the one Marcus Antonius
> >(Marc Antony) had made. I discovered tonight I still have most it
> >memorized, I was wondering if anyone else still remembers it. In
the
> >following execerpt contains the famous funeral speech that was
made,
> >lines 83-115. I hope you all enjoy it!!
> >
> >Vale
> >Aeternia
> >
> >
> >The Funeral Speech
> >-------------------
> >
> > Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
> > I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
> > The evil that men do lives after them;
> > The good is oft interred with their bones;
> > So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
> > Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
> > If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
> > And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
> > Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
> > For Brutus is an honourable man;
> > So are they all, all honourable men--
> > Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
> > He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
> > But Brutus says he was ambitious;
> > And Brutus is an honourable man.
> > He hath brought many captives home to Rome
> > Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
> > Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
> > When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
> > Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
> > Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
> > And Brutus is an honourable man.
> > You all did see that on the Lupercal
> > I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
> > Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
> > Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
> > And, sure, he is an honourable man.
> > I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
> > But here I am to speak what I do know.
> > You all did love him once, not without cause:
> > What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
> > O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
> > And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
> > My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
> > And I must pause till it come back to me.
>
>
> sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
>
> (I think some people in togas are plotting against me.)


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Remember four years of good friends, bad clothes, explosive
chemistry experiments.
http://click.egroups.com/1/8013/8/_/61050/_/966037707/
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