Subject:	[novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 01:49:21 -0000

I'm looking for ideas in connection with a project that would
introduce
a general audience to an overview of ancient Rome through the stories
of individual Romans.

Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record who
best represent the spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill? Why?

Patricia Cassia



--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/966995365/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Return of the Wanderer
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:44:28 -0400

Salvete, Omnes;

As all here know, I don't normally involve myself in the day-to-day affairs
of our beloved Republic. However, I have been beseeched by several of our
most prominent Citizens to weigh in on this dicey subject, and as always I
return to public service at the whim of Roma.

----- Original Message -----
From: M. Apollonius Formosanus <bvm3@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 5:24 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Re: Return of the Wanderer


> 1. It is my understanding that in the "mundane" world he is male in
> the identity that he uses and is accepted in by his peers.

I am under the opposite impression, and have it on good authority (i.e., Ms.
Villaroel herself) that she lives her non-Nova-Roman life as her natural
gender. Were you to meet her on the street, you would know her as a woman.
I've seen a picture of her to reinforce this opinion, and it is corrobrated
by other Citizens who are personally acquainted with her.

> 2. A bad law is a bad law, and I am not consoled by the thought that
> it might be enforced against others too. Discriminating against a
> whole class of people is even worse than discriminating against one.
> And that in fact is exactly my main concern.

I disagree, as every law must perforce discriminate "against a whole class
of people"; namely lawbreakers. I cannot dispute that a bad law is a bad
law, but I think that we are blessedly undersupplied with such in our fair
Republic.

Remember that all our laws and edicta flow from certain principals. One of
those principals is that Nova Roma is not an exercise in role-playing. I am
not a 1st-century Senator with a villa in Dalmatia; I am a 21st-century
computer network administrator with a house in New Jersey. Our Roman names
are not "personas" in the sense of the SCA; our official records must
reflect reality, rather than imagination.

> 3. I quite agree that Marius, I and everyone else want their own way.
> And when it comes to matters of personal identity I think they should
> get it. Those who would define the fundamental identity of another
> against that person's will are the ones who have the burden of proof
> on them for showing the necessity of such an act of trespass on
> another's soul.

I would disagree that the current situation is a "tresspass" on Ms.
Villaroel's "fundamental identity". If her identity as a male were as
fundamental as you suggest, surely she would employ that identity in her
everyday life. She does not, as far as I am aware. Her fundamental identity
is that of a woman, and so she should be recorded as such in our official
records.

> 4. Nova Roma would make a miserable and uninteresting RPG most of
> the time compared with others that are readily available. I have no
> fear that we are going to attract hordes of rôle-players - and indeed
> even before the first Gender Edictum I never noticed anybody actually
> doing this. Certainly Marius wasn't. He is an avid rôle-player, but
> he does not treat Nova Roma in that light. Where are these supposedly
> dangerous people? Nowhere. This is a non-issue, and probably always
> has been.

Actually not. This has been a concern since the very beginning of Nova Roma.
Since you have not been around all that long, I can understand your lack of
understanding on this subject. One of our big concerns has always been to be
taken seriously in the academic, pagan, and other communities. If we were to
be known as a haven for role-players, that would be impossible. I think the
reason you see that the role-players haven't taken over Nova Roma isn't
because they aren't attracted to Nova Roma, but rather that they are
dissuaded from such activities from the get-go. They are told flat-out that
we are not a "Roman SCA". Hopefully, this policy has channeled their
imaginative energies along more constructive lines.

> 5. As a vocal part of a vocal minority I must say that my connection
> with this particular case arises from the fundamental injustice of
> the law as it stands on its own merits. For they are demerits. Such
> laws should not exist. Anywhere. They are an affront to human
> dignity. If such laws did not exist, no individuals would be given
> trouble by them, no one would have to administer them (or take the
> flack for administering them), and Nova Roma would greatly benefit
> from being free of this useless impediment. When this is brought
> about, it will no longer be necessary to be vocal on this point.
> Which I too would like to be soon! :-)

Once again, I must disagree. I see nothing unjust in our esteemed Censors'
edictum; all it says is that ones' Nova Roman records must reflect
real-world reality. Would it be unjust if the Censors failed to acknowledge
my status as a Dachshund? Should I demand restitution of the Collegium
Pontificum because there are no dies fastii offering incense in honor of
Germanicus Deus? Of course not.

I think this points out one of the problems that Nova Roma has faced since
the beginning. People find us, and assume they have found a "kindred soul"
which will mirror their every belief and quirk. When they find that such is
not the case, some people go the way of trying to change Nova Roma to
accomodate themselves. Some leave. Some realize their error and accept it.

Nova Roma is bigger than Maria Villaroel and she (and you) just has to
realize that. We are not here to offer validation for her "spiritual gender"
or whatever her particular beliefs and desires may be.

And as far as the question of her "spiritual gender", I say that if she does
not choose to live her everyday life as a male, we have no obligation to
recognize her as such. To do otherwise would mean she is one person in
Texas, and a completely different person in Nova Roma, and to my mind that
is the definition of "Role Playing"; one thing in the real world and another
thing here.

Earlier, you said that she would have to provide the Censors with many
personal documents, and pay hundreds of dollars. That is wrong. I'm quite
certain that if Ms. Villaroel provided a photocopy of her drivers' license
with the gender listed as "male" to our esteemed Censor, that would satisfy
his need.

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus
Co-Founder, Senator, Augur


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/966998744/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Notable Romans
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 04:05:44 -0000

L. Pompeius Octavianus Patriciæ Cassiæ S.P.D.
Regarding your question, I think in my humble opinion that emperor
Augustus is probably the best one, because he is the founder of the
empire and really succeded in achieving his goals and ambitions. He
changed for ever the history of Rome. There is a "before" and
an "afterwards" him, like a point of inflection. He strived for the
glory of Rome, and really achieved it. I have no doubt he had
brilliant project for Rome.

--- In novaroma@--------, "pjane@j... " <pjane@j...> wrote:
> I'm looking for ideas in connection with a project that would
> introduce
> a general audience to an overview of ancient Rome through the
stories
> of individual Romans.
>
> Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record
who
> best represent the spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill? Why?
>
> Patricia Cassia


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:
http://click.egroups.com/1/8014/8/_/61050/_/967003548/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Return of the Wanderer
From:	Marius Fimbria <aurelianus@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net

Salvete omnes...

Relax, I'm not about to harangue anyone. I actually wasn't going to
say anything else on the subject until the outcome of my application
was known, and those who have said things on my behalf did so out of
the sincerity of their own convictions--not by my direction. No, I
just wanted to clear up a little something that's been brought up by a
few people, including both Vedii...that is, how *do* I live in the
'mundane' world, anyway?

*** Note: Anyone who does not want to be bothered with this, go ahead
and hit 'Delete' now; I'm not forcing it on you. ***

Quoth Vedia Serena (and her esteemed husband has since echoed the same
line of thought):

> It is my understanding that the newest version of the Gender Edictum
> simply calls for any Nova Roma citizen to be recognized within our
> society the same as said citizen is recognized in their own *mundane*
> society....[snip]
> ...It is my understanding that she ['Märia Villarroel'] lives her
> life as a woman (dress, name, etc) while identifying herself
> *spiritually* as a man. To walk past Maria on the street, one would
> know she was a female and call out a cheerful "Good morning Maria" by
> way of greeting. Therefore, I am at a loss as to why she would seek
> to change that treatment only here within Nova Roma, while accepting
> the female name in the *mundane* world.

Does anyone remember Ericius' post of 4 June on this very subject of
how I present myself...? He described me as aggressive, friendly, and
definitely very 'butch', and rendered his opinion that if I were
introduced as a male most folk would not have room for more than 5%
doubt (this because of a smooth chin). I cite this because it is the
only direct evidence I have for how I am perceived by others. For
myself, I have always lived, dressed, and behaved neutrally at best,
and where I lean one direction or another it has always been towards
the masculine side of the house. If people address me as a man, I let
them; if as a woman, I try not to behave in any way that would
emphasize the fact. When I worked warehouse in my early years in the
Air Force, it became obvious very quickly that I was capable of
literally pulling more than my own weight...a thing that had my
coworkers saying that I was easily worth two or three of the guys; and
that was the highest compliment I was ever paid in the military.

I told my Ma at age four that God had made a mistake when He made me a
girl; in school I used a boy name and played mostly with my brother's
friends. The words 'feminine' and 'ladylike' always made me cringe,
because they usually meant I was doing something that a 'real' girl
typically would not...but that I thought was more interesting or more
fun. But my awareness that what I'd previously considered
tomboyishness might in fact signal something deeper crept up on me by
degrees, as such things do. I first read the term 'transgendered' in a
college health class at age 30, and said 'Hey, that's me!' ...but I
wasn't all the way 'out' with it until just this last year, and you
good people have been watching it happen!

Currently I am listed on all government records as a woman named 'Märia
Villarroel', that's true. (Twenty years of Air Force and Veteran's
records are not going to be undone overnight.) But I've been 'Marius'
to my friends and coworkers since 1993, with plans of changing my legal
name to Marius Sertorius Aurelianus sometime in the next year; and I do
not 'accept' identification as a woman so much as I have endured it. I
think I can say I've been socially and functionally a male for most of
my adult life; now it is only a matter of lining the paperwork up to
match.

I hadn't meant this to be quite so lengthy, but that is the basic
situation. I felt more dishonest calling myself a female on the app
than I would have if I'd represented myself as a man; but at least in
the Comments section I was able to put 'Legal name and gender subject
to change', and it seemed a small price to pay for the regaining of my
Citizenship. When my 'civilian' records reflect my actual sense of
identity, I shall most certainly seek to change my Roman name under the
provisions of the Edictum de Mutandis Nominibus, or under such other
edictum or law that may in the meantime have superceded it.

Clear as mud...? >({|:-)

In amicitia et fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria |>[SPQR]<|
<aurelianus@-------->

...who is quite satisfied with the progress of his application; his
first one took three weeks--!

--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967004940/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] notable romans
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:38:49 +0100

Salve,


Although Caesar had many faults, I have to give my allegiance to him for his contribution to the advancement of civilisation in my home land.
The legacy of his conquest brought feats of engineering that can only be marvelled at, Hadrians Wall, Minerva Temple Baths, and a complex network of roads.
Before his arrival we in our Druidical worshipping were committing sacrificial genocide on a scale similar to the ancient Aztecs.
Caesar bought order to a place of anarchy and light where darkness ruled.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Remember four years of good friends, bad clothes, explosive
chemistry experiments.
http://click.egroups.com/1/8013/8/_/61050/_/967009489/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:13:48 -0600

I would like to throw in the following individual:

Cornelia, Mother of the Gracchi. This woman was upheld to later generations
as the ideal Roman matrona and a symbol of Roman virtue. She was the
younger daughter of Scipio Africanus, himself a noteworthy (and evidently
non-self-aggrandizing) Roman and the hero of the second Punic War. Cornelia
was widowed early and left to raise her 3 surviving children (of 12), and
was renowned even in her own time for the excellence with which she executed
that task. Her sons went on to illustrious and controversial political
careers and they took up the unpopular -- and ultimately fatal -- cause of
land reform. Cornelia herself is said by ancient historians to have refused
the marriage proposal of a Ptolemy, choosing instead to remain a widow, and
retired to the country (as her father before her) where she continued
throughout her life to have acquaintence with Roman statesmen who sought her
out for her embodiment of Roman virtue, and the excellence of her
intelligence and conversation.

L. Cornelia Aurelia


"pjane@--------" wrote:

> I'm looking for ideas in connection with a project that would
> introduce
> a general audience to an overview of ancient Rome through the stories
> of individual Romans.
>
> Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record who
> best represent the spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill? Why?
>
> Patricia Cassia
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967010234/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] notable romans
From:	"Doug Barr" <dbarr@-------->
Date:	Tue, 22 Aug 2000 23:08:17 -0700

As a Druid I take exception to this.

Sacrifice of humans was not common among the Druids, although Caesar as a hostile outsider made much of it, and was not, archaically, unknown to the Romans either.

C. Albius Gadelicus
Before his arrival we in our Druidical worshipping were committing sacrificial genocide on a scale similar to the ancient Aztecs.
Caesar bought order to a place of anarchy and light where darkness ruled.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Find long lost high school friends:
http://click.egroups.com/1/8016/8/_/61050/_/967011128/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN [Religio Romana] ante diem X Kalendas Septembres (August 23)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:09:02 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action or public business can take place.

Today is the Volcanalia, festival in honour of Volcanus, the God of
destructive fire. Sacrifice is offered to Volcanus, the Nymphs, Iuturnus and
Ops Opifera. Water deities are propitiated in case of natural disaster. But
the Volcanalia are specially marked by a rite of substitution. Small living
fishes are thrown to the fire 'pro se' (i.e. for their health) replacing
human souls. These fishes are bought at the "area Volcani" near the
Capitoline Hill. The Volcanalia are offered to Volcanus in order to appease
His effects at this time of the year, which also explains why water deities
are also honoured.

The month Sextilis was changed to Augustus as an homage to Emperor
Octavius Caesar Augustus. This month is sacred to Ceres.

Pax Deorum vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967022114/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Translating other langages
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 05:23:42 -0500

23 Aug 2000

Salve

I found this link for translating other languages, I hope this helps others
to understand each other. It works enough for me to follow posts in other
languages. I hope this helps.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn

Vale

Quintus Sertorius






--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Click here for Back-To-School ideas that really make the grade!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7841/8/_/61050/_/967026560/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Senate news
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:30:46 EDT

Salvete Omnes

While the Senate session has been on hold during the past four weeks,
some items have been informally discussed. Probably the most important of
these has been the design of the first Nova Roman coinage. The coin
proposed has a figure that some think resembles that on some old British
coins. Many alternatives have reportedly been considered, but the
limitations of the coinage process have made all alternatives
unsatisfactory in terms of the final product - the design to be used must
be graphically simple in order to work well.

There was some discussion of official recognition of M. Octavius
Germanicus' extraordinarily good work on the NR Web site. A wide range of
actions was discussed.

A request for diplomatic relations was received from the fantasy nation
of the United States of Astor. This was rejected per established policies.

There was extensive discussion and some experimentation in regard to a
more secure "chat" venue that would preclude both "lurking" unseen and
impersonating another person by manipulation of "handles."

Several cives have volunteered to stand for the vacant offices of Rogator.

Quaestor Patricia Cassia posted a financial report indicating that we are
still solvent and slightly less poor than we were at last report,
although this continues to be due to the generosity of certain citizens
who still fund important functions out of their own pockets.

There has been some discussion of the
technicalities/legalities/procedures of admitting/readmitting citizens,
with many opinions aired.

Consul Marcus Minucius Audens asked that the following be announced:
"The Senior Consul has been in contact with his Consular Colleague
(Consul Audens) in regard to the scheduled Senate Call. There has been
a suggested future co-Consul Senate Call tenatively planned and the
forwarding of the Senate Call Agenda for review and approval has taken
place. The arrangements for the Senate Call in regard to Augury have
been interrupted and must be worked out again before moving ahead. The
Consuls are in touch with each other and have agreed to make such a
call, when all items necessary are dealt with and when the time is right
considering the Senior Consul's personal concerns of the moment.
Several additional items regarding communications and medical concerns
have arisen in the last week or so."

Early this morning, there was a post from the Senior Consul, Quintus
Fabius Maximus, announcing that the Senate will be summoned into session
tomorrow at noon PDT, if the omens are favorable.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Get Your Computer Info Right From The Source - PC World!
http://click.egroups.com/1/8238/8/_/61050/_/967033855/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:32:35 +0200

Salve Structor,

I'd have to make an objections against your nomination of Caesar. Yes, he
indeed meant much for the Republic and the later Empire, but I always keep
in mind that he decimated the people of Gallia. It was no genocide on
racistic basis, but after all he *did* invade a territory not his own only
to seek personal glory and to "civilize" the "barbarians". Yes, "Gallia
pacata est", he writes, but at what price. It's easy to achieve peace when
there's no one left to make war with.

Vale bene!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
"There is no knowledge that is not power"
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
--**--


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Missing old school friends? Find them here:
http://click.egroups.com/1/8015/8/_/61050/_/967034196/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:37:06 -0500

Avete Omnes,

Venator hic:

The most notable Roman of all time has to be A. Nonius Mus.

He is the source of most of the world's unattributed quotations, bits of poetry, graffitto and news sourcing. No other
author has been as prolific, or long lived.

In felcitia - Venii

--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Click here for Back-To-School ideas that really make the grade!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7841/8/_/61050/_/967034211/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Update on the Varus film project
From:	Iulia66198@--------
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:49:30 EDT

This is now available at the following url:

http://pages.ancientsites.com/~Thiudareiks_Flavius/varus.html

Valete,
Iulia Cassia


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup
Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files.
Install today:
http://click.egroups.com/1/6347/8/_/61050/_/967034982/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Return of the Wanderer
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:50:54 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Flavio Vedio Germanico et Omnibus S.P.D.

Let me first make a little correction to the perception of Vado and
Merullus that I had inquired about why the citizenship application of
L. Marius Fimbria was delayed. I never asked this insofar as I can
remember. I rather cynically think that the senior censor, having
gotten out of Marius the submission to his will that he craves, would
naturally approve the completely proper application. As, indeed, is
his duty.

I might note that the censor's fautores (supporters) have often said
that Sulla and Marius are friends ("Marius has even stayed in Sulla's
house" etc.) so that no slightest suspicion of ill will could be
tainting the censor's treatment of the civis. Can we then suppose
that Sulla will make a public expression of welcome and
congratulation when he has readmitted Marius? Old friends, after all.

But to your letter, Germanice. I shall not deal with the parts which
dealt with your misapprehension that Marius in fact has a female
identity in everyday life. Marius himself has already in great detail
responded to that and shown that that is untrue. However, you raise
other points of interest:

(I mark my comments with "***" for clarity)

From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Subject: Re: Return of the Wanderer

Salvete, Omnes;

<snips>

----- Original Message -----
From: M. Apollonius Formosanus <bvm3@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 5:24 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Re: Return of the Wanderer

> 2. A bad law is a bad law, and I am not consoled by the thought
that
> it might be enforced against others too. Discriminating against a
> whole class of people is even worse than discriminating against
one.
> And that in fact is exactly my main concern.

I disagree, as every law must perforce discriminate "against a whole
class of people"; namely lawbreakers. I cannot dispute that a bad law
is a bad law, but I think that we are blessedly undersupplied with
such in our fair Republic.

Any given class of persons is made up of lawbreakers only if there is
a law against them. The question is whether the criteria that justify
the law against the class are just or unjust. Since changing one's
sexuality or having a sexuality different from one's "plumbing" is in
no way a morally evil thing, making it a criterion for having to
supply "proof" of one's sexuality - often at the expense of hundreds
of dollars and scores of hours of legal or medical procedures - is
obviously unreasonable and unjust. And in fact even this law does not
call this class of people "criminals" - but rather treats supposed
non-criminals with a suspicion that causes hardship with no
corresponding advantage for the Respublica.

I quite agree with you, sir, that we are undersupplied with bad laws
in Nova Roma (thank the gods!) - that is why this ill-begotten
monstrosity of an edictum - or rather a very few of its many
provisions, most being admirable - stands out so clearly and calls
forth so much agitation for its amendment, that in this matter too
Nova Roma might enjoy decent legislation.

Remember that all our laws and edicta flow from certain principals.
One of those principals is that Nova Roma is not an exercise in
role-playing. I am not a 1st-century Senator with a villa in
Dalmatia; I am a 21st-century computer network administrator with a
house in New Jersey. Our Roman names are not "personas" in the sense
of the SCA; our official records must reflect reality, rather than
imagination.

***I completely agree with and subscribe to this statement of
principle. As, I am completely sure, does Marius, a rôle-player who
very clearly knows that that is not what NR is about.


> 4. Nova Roma would make a miserable and uninteresting RPG most of
> the time compared with others that are readily available. I have no
> fear that we are going to attract hordes of rôle-players - and
indeed
> even before the first Gender Edictum I never noticed anybody
actually
> doing this. Certainly Marius wasn't. He is an avid rôle-player, but
> he does not treat Nova Roma in that light. Where are these
supposedly
> dangerous people? Nowhere. This is a non-issue, and probably always
> has been.

Actually not. This has been a concern since the very beginning of
Nova Roma. Since you have not been around all that long, I can
understand your lack of understanding on this subject. One of our big
concerns has always been to be taken seriously in the academic,
pagan, and other communities. If we were to be known as a haven for
role-players, that would be impossible. I think the reason you see
that the role-players haven't taken over Nova Roma isn't because they
aren't attracted to Nova Roma, but rather that they are dissuaded
from such activities from the get-go. They are told flat-out that
we are not a "Roman SCA". Hopefully, this policy has channeled their
imaginative energies along more constructive lines.

***I am aware that there was once great concern about this matter of
our national identity. I think, as you do, that people should be made
to understand from the beginning that we are not a RP organisation.
But that having been said, there is no obvious danger or threat of
this at the present time. And I suppose that playing a rôle of an
opposite sex is a minority interest anyway - probably most RP-ers
most of the time choose the same sex as their biological one - and
obviously the edictum in question does absolutely nothing to protect
NR from that. In fact, since anyone can lie on initial application,
it protects NR not at all even from RP-ers changing their sex before
enty. (Unless they are caught, something which would almost never
happen.)

We have to have a sense of proportion: should transsexuals and the
like have to have such suspicion directed against them, leading on
occasion to endless trouble and expense, when this is a completely
ineffective defence against RP-ers? And when the danger of RP-ers is
in no way pressing and present? I think that common sense would say a
clear "No".

> 5. As a vocal part of a vocal minority I must say that my
connection
> with this particular case arises from the fundamental injustice of
> the law as it stands on its own merits. For they are demerits. Such
> laws should not exist. Anywhere. They are an affront to human
> dignity. If such laws did not exist, no individuals would be given
> trouble by them, no one would have to administer them (or take the
> flack for administering them), and Nova Roma would greatly benefit
> from being free of this useless impediment. When this is brought
> about, it will no longer be necessary to be vocal on this point.
> Which I too would like to be soon! :-)

Once again, I must disagree. I see nothing unjust in our esteemed
Censors' edictum; all it says is that ones' Nova Roman records must
reflect real-world reality.

***Not exactly "all", however. And that is the problem. It also
insists on procedures for "legal" proof - and these can be *very*
troublesome and costly. And "legal" things are essentially fictions
anyway. Marius, for example, has been accepted by the immediate world
around him as a male, and that for him is the important thing. He has
felt no need to go the route of the courts for a name change just to
live as a male in the outside world. He is only being forced to do
this to satisfy this silly edictum.

And, unfortunately, most transsexuals do not have so much dedication
to Nova Roma as Marius does, and would therefore be effectively kept
out or leave in disgust. Which is against the idea of gender and
sexual-orientation non-discrimination in our Constitution. And which
might be reason for a lawsuit against us in U.S. courts.

If it were *simply* what you said and a person like Marius could
just report to the censors: "I am now accepted generally as a male to
my satisfaction by those around me in normal social life", and have
his word accepted as a matter of course and be sufficient, then I
would have no objection to this law. But it is not so simple.

I think this points out one of the problems that Nova Roma has faced
since the beginning. People find us, and assume they have found a
"kindred soul" which will mirror their every belief and quirk. When
they find that such is not the case, some people go the way of trying
to change Nova Roma to accommodate themselves. Some leave. Some
realize their error and accept it.

***A fair analysis. Except that all the cives of Nova Roma are
constantly engaged in changing and fine-tuning Her nature, and the
desire to improve and to correct faults is not the same as a desire
to pervert Her nature to something completely different.

Nova Roma is bigger than Maria Villaroel and she (and you) just has
to realize that. We are not here to offer validation for her
"spiritual gender" or whatever her particular beliefs and desires may
be.

*** The notion of sexual equality for all human beings (including
transsexuals) is one logical and natural development of the legal
tradition of Rome. Which was heavily influenced by the Stoic idea of
Natural Law. Now, can we say that Nova Roma, soon to be a 21'st
Century society (for we are not rôle-players believing ourselves to
be living in Ancient Rome) can ignore what has now been understood to
be a fundamental matter of justice? The civilised world is bigger
than Nova Roma, and the latter is and must be a part of it. I say
that as the whole human race comes to understand the true demands of
Natural Law more clearly there can be no part of world civilisation
that ignores it. We have thus quite properly outlawed slavery, blood
sacrifice and the inequality of women in Nova Roma. And in the
Constitution we claim to outlaw sexual discrimination.

And so we should in practice. That is simple justice, equity and
fairness, not a special claim for anything more. It is a minimum for
any society that wishes to command the moral allegiance of civilised
people today.

Earlier, you said that she would have to provide the Censors with
many personal documents, and pay hundreds of dollars. That is wrong.
I'm quite certain that if Ms. Villaroel provided a photocopy of her
drivers' license with the gender listed as "male" to our esteemed
Censor, that would satisfy his need.

***It is precisely to get such a driver's licence that would cause
the trouble and expense mentioned. Apparently you have not acquainted
yourself with the facts.
____________________________
I must thank, you, Germanicus for the chance to clarify these
things. People have bantered about this notion that this law somehow
protects against rôle-players for a long time, and it was worth while
having the opportunity to show that the "proof in name changing"
parts causing the injustice have no effect in keeping out RP-ers, and
the rest of the Edictum in question very little.

Indeed, any one of us already in NR or any new person coming into NR
according to his or her biological sex could decide at any moment to
start treating Nova Roma as a RPG - and although it is against our
public policy, I think that they would be breaking no law.

So, why all the fuss about the tiny potential rôle of changing sexes
in this? If we want laws against people treating Nova Roma as a RPG,
let's make some - if we can think of a way of defining the offence
exactly and enforcing the law. But that has *nothing* to do with
persons with a "mind/plumbing" difference in sexuality - and as kind
and decent human beings we should recognise that their differences
from the norm already give them enough trouble in finding their own
identity and coping with the incomprehending - we should in no wise
add to it, but should do everything in our power to make the Nova
Roman part of their life trouble-free and rewarding by not putting
special burdens, suspicions or restrictions on them. In other words,
by treating them as we wish to be treated.

Valete!


Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius              
ICQ# 61698049 Firetalk: Apollonius 1588367
AIM: MAFormosanus              MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967035361/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:16:18 -0600

Pliny the younger, as portrayed in his own letters ... observer of the
Roman scene, a man who hobnobbed with rich and poor, a man who survived
Domitian, a man who had a very humane attitude towards his slaves (he tells
us), etc., etc.. I can't think of anyone who more personifies what upper
class Romans thought 'Rome' should be than the way Pliny portrays himself ...

dm


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967037021/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:54:23 -0400

> I'd have to make an objections against your nomination of Caesar.

I apologize, but I must disagree with these objections in the context of the
discussion at hand. I have to say that disagreement with Caesar's politics
doesn't make him any less of a "notable Roman." Do I need to stress how
ridiculous it would be to ignore Caesar as a major player in Roman history
because he killed people, some of whom probably didn't deserve it? I
challenge anyone to find a great leader who everyone uniformly agreed with
or a great Roman leader who didn't cause any innocents to die.

I personally must support Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus Africanus
Numanticus (I apologize to Scipio's shade if I got his names out of order)
as a very notable Roman. The Romans themselves considered him the embodiment
of the true Roman ideal for generations.

Also, I would like to suggest a far less famous Roman, Caenis, a concubine
of the Emperor Vespasian. She was a prime example of how an intelligent (and
reputedly not terribly beautiful) woman could achieve high levels of success
through hard work and her own talents. She managed Vespasian's affairs and
then the financial state of the Empire very efficiently.

-Lauria Maria Crispa


----- Original Message -----
From: S. Apollonius Draco <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 8:32 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Notable Romans


> Salve Structor,
>
> I'd have to make an objections against your nomination of Caesar.
Yes, he indeed meant much for the Republic and the later Empire, but I
always keep
> in mind that he decimated the people of Gallia. It was no genocide on
> racistic basis, but after all he *did* invade a territory not his own only
> to seek personal glory and to "civilize" the "barbarians". Yes, "Gallia
> pacata est", he writes, but at what price. It's easy to achieve peace when
> there's no one left to make war with.
>
> Vale bene!
> Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae,
> Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
> --**--
> "There is no knowledge that is not power"
> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
> --**--
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967038983/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:39:32 -0600

At Wednesday 8/23/00 09:54 AM -0400, you wrote:
>Also, I would like to suggest a far less famous Roman, Caenis, a concubine
>of the Emperor Vespasian. She was a prime example of how an intelligent (and
>reputedly not terribly beautiful) woman could achieve high levels of success
>through hard work and her own talents. She managed Vespasian's affairs and
>then the financial state of the Empire very efficiently.


I would love to know the evidence for these claims ...

mpj


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Free @Backup service! Click here for your free trial of @Backup.
@Backup is the most convenient way to securely protect and access
your files online. Try it now and receive 300 MyPoints.
http://click.egroups.com/1/6348/8/_/61050/_/967041100/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:58:22 -0400

It's been awhile since I've done any research on the Flavian dynasty, but I
believe the discussion of Caenis is in Suetonius' Vita Divi Vespasian. You
might want to try that. I unfortunately do not have my library accesible
where I am currently living but when I get it back I would be happy to do
more thorough research on Caenis if you are particularly interested.

-Lauria Maria

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans


> At Wednesday 8/23/00 09:54 AM -0400, you wrote:
> >Also, I would like to suggest a far less famous Roman, Caenis, a
concubine
> >of the Emperor Vespasian. She was a prime example of how an intelligent
(and
> >reputedly not terribly beautiful) woman could achieve high levels of
success
> >through hard work and her own talents. She managed Vespasian's affairs
and
> >then the financial state of the Empire very efficiently.
>
>
> I would love to know the evidence for these claims ...
>
> mpj
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967042835/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:28:51 US/Central

T Labienus Quiritibus S PD

As usual, I can’t confine myself to just one or two. So, here’s a list of the
Romans whose stories have inspired or intrigued me.

Remus, Romulus, L Tarquinius Superbus, and C Iulius Caesar; each of whom, in
turn, acted as an unwilling human sacrifice at the turning of the Roman world.

Numa Pompilius, who established the foundation Rome’s religion, including the
Vestal Virgins and the worship of Fides, one of my gens’ patrons.

L Quinctius Cincinnatus, who was literally toiling behind a plow when the
Senate made him a Dictator, and who returned to his farm a mere 16 days later--
a true example of simple Roman duty.

C Fabius Dorsuo, who, during the Gallic occupation of the city, calmly walked
through the enemy lines to deliver a sacrifice to the Gods and returned
unscathed.

M Porcius Cato Maior and M Porcius Cato Minor; both were men of great industry
and greater virtue.

Valete



--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Find out the TRUTH about Anyone!
NET DETECTIVE 2000
Use the internet to investigate anyone!
http://click.egroups.com/1/8305/8/_/61050/_/967044533/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	"Richard Janos" <richjanos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:48:25 GMT

I have always felt that Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus was a prime example of
the Rome way of life and duty.
As briefly explain in this excerpt from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

Cincinnatus, Lucius Quinctius

b. 519?, BC
Roman statesman who gained fame for his selfless devotion to the republic in
times of crisis and for giving up the reins of power when the crisis was
over. Although he was a historical figure, his career has been much
embellished by legend.

The core of the tradition holds that in 458 Cincinnatus was appointed
dictator at Rome in order to rescue a consular army that was surrounded by
the Aequi on Mount Algidus. At the time of his appointment he was working a
small farm. He is said to have defeated the enemy in a single day and
celebrated a triumph in Rome. Cincinnatus maintained his authority only long
enough to bring Rome through the emergency. He then resigned and returned to
his farm. Most scholars see no factual truth in the further tradition that
Cincinnatus was given a second dictatorship in 439 to check the monarchical
ambitions of Spurius Maelius. Once again he is supposed to have ceded his
power after ending the crisis.

Richj
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967045706/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:45:57 -0600

Well, actually, I do know the sources ... Suetonius and Dio ... I just
can't recall that they go as far as you suggest in regards to specifics
like "hard work" and "her own talents" and 'managing Vespasian's affairs,
then the empire's'. That sounds more like a Lindsey Davis novel than
Suetonius and Dio ...

mpj


At Wednesday 8/23/00 10:58 AM -0400, you wrote:
>It's been awhile since I've done any research on the Flavian dynasty, but I
>believe the discussion of Caenis is in Suetonius' Vita Divi Vespasian. You
>might want to try that. I unfortunately do not have my library accesible
>where I am currently living but when I get it back I would be happy to do
>more thorough research on Caenis if you are particularly interested.
>
>-Lauria Maria
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
>To: <novaroma@-------->
>Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:39 PM
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
>
>
> > At Wednesday 8/23/00 09:54 AM -0400, you wrote:
> > >Also, I would like to suggest a far less famous Roman, Caenis, a
>concubine
> > >of the Emperor Vespasian. She was a prime example of how an intelligent
>(and
> > >reputedly not terribly beautiful) woman could achieve high levels of
>success
> > >through hard work and her own talents. She managed Vespasian's affairs
>and
> > >then the financial state of the Empire very efficiently.
> >
> >
> > I would love to know the evidence for these claims ...
> >
> > mpj
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:
http://click.egroups.com/1/8014/8/_/61050/_/967045787/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:54:27 +0200

S.A. Draco L.M. Crispiae S.P.D.,

> I apologize, but I must disagree with these objections in the context of
the
> discussion at hand. I have to say that disagreement with Caesar's
politics
> doesn't make him any less of a "notable Roman." Do I need to stress how
> ridiculous it would be to ignore Caesar as a major player in Roman
history
> because he killed people, some of whom probably didn't deserve it? I
> challenge anyone to find a great leader who everyone uniformly agreed
with
> or a great Roman leader who didn't cause any innocents to die.

I am aware of this. I nowhere said that he wasn't important for Roman
history nor tried to imply that. He did have his many qualities, but I just
think he does not deserve to be notable and honorable Roman, as we like to
remind him, while he did such slaughter. Many leaders made innocent people
die, I know that too, but then again I think those aren't notable either.
There's no excuse for such things, usually. This would raise the issue of
course of which Roman I *would* find notable enough. I'd say emperor
Hadrianus. Although some of the Dacian wars took place during his
predecessor's reign, which were very bloody as well, he's known as an
artistic, gentle man. My general preference for notable Romans goes to
artists and philosophers rather than army commanders.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
"There is no knowledge that is not power"
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
--**--

--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967046123/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:02:23 +0200

Cauis Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.
Salve, Patricia Cassia.

The persons listed in that many answers are certainly Individuals, which are
worth to be called Notable Romans.

But following men are also worth to be mentioned:

Quintus Fabius Maximus "Cunctator"
During the 2nd Punic War, he was the real saviour of Rome, due to his
delaying strategy. His strategies were heavily offended before Cannae, but
the desaster of Cannae, it became clear that his strategies were the only
way to cope with Hannibal.

Marcus Ulpius Traianus
During his reign, the empire reached it´s greatest size. When he became
emperor, he first secured the rhine frontier before he moved to rome. As
Emperor, he always respected the Senate.

Marcus Aurelius
for his final successes at the end of the harsh Marcommannic Wars, and for
his outstanding philosophical essays.

Emperor Aurelianus
for his reunification of the empire. He solved the problems with the Gallic
Empire of Postumus and the Palmyrene kingdom of Zenobia. He was a light in
the dark ages of the empire.

Emperor Diocletianus
(not because of my name, but...) for the reorganisation, both civil and
military, of the whole empire. This reorganisations enabled the romans to
hold their empire furthermore for over one century.

Emperor Flavius Iulianus "Apostata"
for his achievements to rebuild the Religio Romana. He stemmed himself
against the flood of the christian religion. Also for his successes at the
rhine frontiers, as for his humanity, kindness and his admiration for the
old roman traditions.


"pjane@--------" schrieb:

> I'm looking for ideas in connection with a project that would
> introduce
> a general audience to an overview of ancient Rome through the stories
> of individual Romans.
>
> Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record who
> best represent the spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill? Why?
>
> Patricia Cassia
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:
http://click.egroups.com/1/8014/8/_/61050/_/967046548/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:44:27 -0400

I've never read any Lindsey Davis novels. But I have had several
discussions with one of my professors who finds her a very interesting and
oft-neglected figure in the historical record.

LM

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans


> Well, actually, I do know the sources ... Suetonius and Dio ... I just
> can't recall that they go as far as you suggest in regards to specifics
> like "hard work" and "her own talents" and 'managing Vespasian's affairs,
> then the empire's'. That sounds more like a Lindsey Davis novel than
> Suetonius and Dio ...
>
> mpj
>
>
> At Wednesday 8/23/00 10:58 AM -0400, you wrote:
> >It's been awhile since I've done any research on the Flavian dynasty, but
I
> >believe the discussion of Caenis is in Suetonius' Vita Divi Vespasian.
You
> >might want to try that. I unfortunately do not have my library accesible
> >where I am currently living but when I get it back I would be happy to do
> >more thorough research on Caenis if you are particularly interested.
> >
> >-Lauria Maria
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
> >To: <novaroma@-------->
> >Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:39 PM
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
> >
> >
> > > At Wednesday 8/23/00 09:54 AM -0400, you wrote:
> > > >Also, I would like to suggest a far less famous Roman, Caenis, a
> >concubine
> > > >of the Emperor Vespasian. She was a prime example of how an
intelligent
> >(and
> > > >reputedly not terribly beautiful) woman could achieve high levels of
> >success
> > > >through hard work and her own talents. She managed Vespasian's
affairs
> >and
> > > >then the financial state of the Empire very efficiently.
> > >
> > >
> > > I would love to know the evidence for these claims ...
> > >
> > > mpj
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967052882/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	"Lauriat" <blauriat@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:59:07 -0400

> There's no excuse for such things, usually. This would raise the issue of
> course of which Roman I *would* find notable enough. I'd say emperor
> Hadrianus. Although some of the Dacian wars took place during his
> predecessor's reign, which were very bloody as well, he's known as an
> artistic, gentle man.

Hadrian may have been a gentle man sometimes but I think the Jews of his era
would have disagreed emphatically. Hadrians's prohibition of circumcision
and his animosity towards Jerusalem were direct triggers of the great Jewish
revolt at Bar Kokhba which he then brutally suppressed.
However, you are correct in that Hadrian also contributed greatly to the
development of the Roman empire.
He was certainly a "notable" Roman by the definition of notable which means
"of note," and not necessarily a pillar of what we moderns might consider
moral behavior.

----- Original Message -----
From: S. Apollonius Draco <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans


> S.A. Draco L.M. Crispiae S.P.D.,
>
> > I apologize, but I must disagree with these objections in the context of
> the
> > discussion at hand. I have to say that disagreement with Caesar's
> politics
> > doesn't make him any less of a "notable Roman." Do I need to stress how
> > ridiculous it would be to ignore Caesar as a major player in Roman
> history
> > because he killed people, some of whom probably didn't deserve it? I
> > challenge anyone to find a great leader who everyone uniformly agreed
> with
> > or a great Roman leader who didn't cause any innocents to die.
>
> I am aware of this. I nowhere said that he wasn't important for Roman
> history nor tried to imply that. He did have his many qualities, but I
just
> think he does not deserve to be notable and honorable Roman, as we like to
> remind him, while he did such slaughter. Many leaders made innocent people
> die, I know that too, but then again I think those aren't notable either.
> There's no excuse for such things, usually. This would raise the issue of
> course of which Roman I *would* find notable enough. I'd say emperor
> Hadrianus. Although some of the Dacian wars took place during his
> predecessor's reign, which were very bloody as well, he's known as an
> artistic, gentle man. My general preference for notable Romans goes to
> artists and philosophers rather than army commanders.
>
> Vale bene,
> Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae,
> Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
> --**--
> "There is no knowledge that is not power"
> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
> --**--
>
>
>
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967053750/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:33:05 -0600

The only reason she's "neglected" is because we don't know much of anything
about her. We know that after his wife died, Vespasian kept her as his
mistress (and never married her, of course ... she was a freedwoman) and
that Domitian didn't like her much. We also have an inscription set up to her:

CIL 6.12037

DIS MANIB
ANTONIAE AVG
L CAENIDIS
OPTVMAE PATRON
AGLAVS L CVM AGLAO
ET GLENE ET AGLAIDE
FILIIS

... which tells us that she was originally a slave of Antonia (mother of
Caligula) ... and that's about it. If folks have more info on her, I'd be
happy to learn it!

mpj



At Wednesday 8/23/00 01:44 PM -0400, you wrote:
>I've never read any Lindsey Davis novels. But I have had several
>discussions with one of my professors who finds her a very interesting and
>oft-neglected figure in the historical record.
>
>LM


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Remember four years of good friends, bad clothes, explosive
chemistry experiments.
http://click.egroups.com/1/8013/8/_/61050/_/967055072/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:41:29 -0600

At Wednesday 8/23/00 02:33 PM -0600, I wrote:
>... which tells us that she was originally a slave of Antonia (mother of
>Caligula) ... and that's about it. If folks have more info on her, I'd be
>happy to lea


... of course, that should be *grandmother* ...

mpj


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967055749/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans
From:	ANASTASIOS <fixt@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:30:16 -0700

I think that in order to form an unbiased and fair appraisal of who
was or was not a
"notable Roman" one MUST judge the actions of the particular Roman
against the
backdrop of the environment of ancient Rome in particular, and the
ancient world in general. Personal views on life, and understanding of
the world based on 2000 years of hindsight is not the ideal vehicle for
understanding the motivations of those long dead. Of course, the
Romans that we have put up for our considerations, both pro and con, are
probably chuckling at us now, because the very fact that we know them
makes them "notable Romans".
I think that Gauis Julius Caesar was more than a notable Roman, be
you Optimate, or be you Populare, he is one of the most notable men in
history-period.
So keeping 2000 years of social evolution in mind, I would like to
nominate, Marcus Porcius Cato Censor, Scipio Africanus, Cornelia mother
of the Gracchi, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix, Marcus Tullius Cicero,
Gauis Julius Caesar Augustus (although I personally find Octavianus a
less than honorable Roman) And also Cinncinatus because of the
values, and sense of duty, that this semi-mythical personality said of
the qualities that the republican Romans held most dear. ( I wonder
how hard George Washington's father would laugh at the "I can not tell a
lie" story) The above mentioned with the addition of Aurelia the mother
of Caesar were all esteemed and remembered , and held up by there
descendants as models to emulate.
In all probability those men themselves probably thought the most
highly of that guy that owned that little sausage shop behind the curia,
for his generous portions, and his good wine....lol) Debate on fellow
Quirites! We can only learn and grow by this.


Vale,


Lucius Cornelius Quirinus

--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Find out the TRUTH about Anyone!
NET DETECTIVE 2000
http://click.egroups.com/1/8304/8/_/61050/_/967055775/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Notable Romans
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:03:39 -0000

This is great stuff, everybody! By "notable Romans" I meant "people
of some historical significance to the Roman world, or whose stories
illustrate some meaningful aspect of that world."

Please, keep it going!


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967057467/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Notable Romans
From:	"Gaius Metellus Valentinus" <websurfer07@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:03:27 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lauriat" <blauriat@b...> wrote:
> > There's no excuse for such things, usually. This would raise the
issue of
> > course of which Roman I *would* find notable enough. I'd say
emperor
> > Hadrianus. Although some of the Dacian wars took place during his
> > predecessor's reign, which were very bloody as well, he's known
as an
> > artistic, gentle man.
>
> Hadrian may have been a gentle man sometimes but I think the Jews
of his era
> would have disagreed emphatically. Hadrians's prohibition of
circumcision
> and his animosity towards Jerusalem were direct triggers of the
great Jewish
> revolt at Bar Kokhba which he then brutally suppressed.
> However, you are correct in that Hadrian also contributed greatly
to the
> development of the Roman empire.
> He was certainly a "notable" Roman by the definition of notable
which means
> "of note," and not necessarily a pillar of what we moderns might
consider
> moral behavior.
>

Salve,


Likewise, Marcus Aurelius. I admire his manner and way of
thinking, but under his reign there was a resurgence of persecution
of Christians.
I think the thing to keep in mind with "notable figures" is that
despite their achievements, they were all humans, with human faults.
Marcus Aurelius struggled between his duty as emperor and his
personal convictions, attempting to reconcile the two.
Maybe, and this is only an observation, "notable" should simply
be taken to mean a historical figure who served as a catalyst for
somekind of change, someone who impacted the history or development
of Rome, or just someone who's life served as a kind of moral
barometer, and example to others. Let's not be too judgemental (or
politically correct) with these choices.

Ave, G. Metellus Valentinus



--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.
Remember the good 'ol days
http://click.egroups.com/1/8012/8/_/61050/_/967057679/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Notable Romans: Alternative History
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:56:13 +0100

Quiritibus salutem

Quaerit P. Cassia:

>Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record who best represent the >spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill? Why?

Respondeo:

No blame to those who have already posted replies, but I feel that people tend to place overmuch emphasis on the importance of aristocratic self-publicists like C. Iulius Caesar and Octavius (Augustus) Caesar, and the patrician families of Rome herself. Until fairly recently, historians have tended to do the same.

The main reason, of course, is that the testimony of Rome's ruling elite is mostly what survives; but it is by no means all, of which we are the inheritors, that is not dust.

Wars are won by soldiers as much as by generals; illustrious heads of patrician gentes maintained their virtuous pre-eminence as much through the supportive loyalty of their lesser relations, freed clients, and slaves, as by their own efforts; good laws are made not only by politicians, but by the people who agree to keep those laws.

It is all too easy to forget this. The very word 'notable' has a second meaning, i.e., a member of a society's elite - and it implies that the ordinary man or woman is not worthy of note.

So let me bring to your ears the words of an ordinary Roman, which I found on the Pannonia website (translation by Alexandrus I. C. Probus Macedonicus):

Soran From Batavian Cavalry

/epitaphy from a grave/

Here I am, who was famous in the whole Pannonia

Hadrianus awarded the palm to me, when from Batavians

Thousands brave men, I succeeded The Danube deepness

To overcome swimming his waters in full armours

The flying arrow falling down

In the air I split it with my arrow.

And on throwing spear, no Roman warrior, no Barbarians

Won over me neither no Parthian on shooting with a bow.

Memmoried here on the stone are my deeds.

Those who read that let follow my feats

As an example I served for myself having done them as first.



This man's great-grandfather will have been a barbarian. He himself, in his finest hour, would not have had the dignity of Roman citizenship, having not yet completed his 25 years' auxiliary service. But to me, he is no less a Roman for all that.

Citizens, let those of us who are ordinary men and women in the macronational states in which we reside, pause in our acclamation of the powerful, and consider our own self-worth and potential, as this Batavian cavalry trooper urges. Such self-pride, I believe, is the Romanitas that built and maintained the Empire.

Think of all the lesser beings who Caesar Augustus might have thanked, and co-immortalized, for the achievements listed in his 'Res Gestae', but didn't bother to. And pour a libation to their shades when you have a moment.

Mea sententia.

Vado.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967057975/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Notable Romans
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:41:49 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, All;

In the book, Handbook To Life In Ancient Roma (L. and R. Adkins) there
are three lists of:

--Emperors;

--Prominant People;

--Ancient Authors.

This is a good beginning for a revew such as this.

On the topic of "notables" for a given historical period, one could
certainly say the Adolf Hitler was a notable in the 20th century, just
as Tamerlane was in his period, and the Zulu Kings in thiers. Casper
Milquetoasts they were not--"Notables" they were, by anyone's
evaluation.

The request was for suggestions of Notable Romans, not bloodless Romans,
not Good Romans, not Bad Romans, but rather Notable Romans. Few people
if any at all, who reach us as "notable" in the Roman Republic or Empire
were totally innocent in the respect of acts of malice against others.
Different views, foster conflict. Conflict heralds change, and finance
rolls it all along with ever-increasing force. Shedding the blood of
ten or a hundred, or a thousand, or ten-thousand has not seemed too
great a price to pay in the eyes of many famous "Notables" for changes
that seemed necessary at the time in thier period, regardless of how it
must look to us, without most of the true facts, at this late date.

Your opinions are of course your own, but I like to think that looking
back on my college days, those who were considered in the top of thier
fields of history were never quite sure about specific situations
because they said, "we simply do not know enough!!!" So it seems that
the less one knows, the surer one can be of thier opinions--strange
that!!!

Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967060109/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Notable Romans: Alternative History
From:	"Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:00:08 -0000

Hail Soran of the Batavian Cavalry. I salute you and your deeds.
I place an offering to your shade upon my altar.
Di Deaque te ament.
Bene vale, Soran.
C. Aelius Ericius.
Pontifex, Augur, Senator, Paterfamilas genti Aelia in Nova Roma.

--- In novaroma@--------, "Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@d...> wrote:
> Quiritibus salutem
>
> Quaerit P. Cassia:
>
> >Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record
who best represent the >spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill?
Why?
>
> Respondeo:
>
> No blame to those who have already posted replies, but I feel that
people tend to place overmuch emphasis on the importance of
aristocratic self-publicists like C. Iulius Caesar and Octavius
(Augustus) Caesar, and the patrician families of Rome herself. Until
fairly recently, historians have tended to do the same.
>
> The main reason, of course, is that the testimony of Rome's ruling
elite is mostly what survives; but it is by no means all, of which we
are the inheritors, that is not dust.
>
> Wars are won by soldiers as much as by generals; illustrious heads
of patrician gentes maintained their virtuous pre-eminence as much
through the supportive loyalty of their lesser relations, freed
clients, and slaves, as by their own efforts; good laws are made not
only by politicians, but by the people who agree to keep those laws.
>
> It is all too easy to forget this. The very word 'notable' has a
second meaning, i.e., a member of a society's elite - and it implies
that the ordinary man or woman is not worthy of note.
>
> So let me bring to your ears the words of an ordinary Roman, which
I
found on the Pannonia website (translation by Alexandrus I. C. Probus
Macedonicus):
>
> Soran From Batavian Cavalry
>
> /epitaphy from a grave/
>
> Here I am, who was famous in the whole Pannonia
>
> Hadrianus awarded the palm to me, when from Batavians
>
> Thousands brave men, I succeeded The Danube deepness
>
> To overcome swimming his waters in full armours
>
> The flying arrow falling down
>
> In the air I split it with my arrow.
>
> And on throwing spear, no Roman warrior, no Barbarians
>
> Won over me neither no Parthian on shooting with a bow.
>
> Memmoried here on the stone are my deeds.
>
> Those who read that let follow my feats
>
> As an example I served for myself having done them as first.
>
>
>
> This man's great-grandfather will have been a barbarian. He
himself,
in his finest hour, would not have had the dignity of Roman
citizenship, having not yet completed his 25 years' auxiliary
service.
But to me, he is no less a Roman for all that.
>
> Citizens, let those of us who are ordinary men and women in the
macronational states in which we reside, pause in our acclamation of
the powerful, and consider our own self-worth and potential, as this
Batavian cavalry trooper urges. Such self-pride, I believe, is the
Romanitas that built and maintained the Empire.
>
> Think of all the lesser beings who Caesar Augustus might have
thanked, and co-immortalized, for the achievements listed in his 'Res
Gestae', but didn't bother to. And pour a libation to their shades
when you have a moment.
>
> Mea sententia.
>
> Vado.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967060815/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Digest Number 981 Notable Romans: Alternative History
From:	"Lucius" <vergil@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:04:06 -0400

Lucius Equitius Quirinibus SPD

Inquit P. Cassia:
>Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record who best
represent the spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill? Why?

Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, Roman general, Statesmen,
Scipio Africanus: Soldier and Politician by H.H.Scullard, 1970, isbn
8014-0549-1 (out of print)
(took me over a year to find this, it cost me but was worth it)
Scipio Africanus: Greater than Napoleon by B.H.Liddell Hart, ISBN
0-306-80583-9
I highly recommend this one! $14.40 @ Amazon and B&N

Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, Roman general, Statesman,& Farmer
Livy

Both of these men are to be admired, and for the reason they are not so well
known. They valued virtue over personal gain.

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967064487/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Notable Romans: Alternative History
From:	"Little Dragon" <fionaerin@-------->
Date:	Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:38:38 -0000

---Salve Vado,

That was one awesome epitaph.


Vale
Aeternia Iulia Caesaria Scorpina Draconia



In novaroma@--------, "Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@d...> wrote:
> Quiritibus salutem
>
> Quaerit P. Cassia:
>
> >Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record
who best represent the >spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill?
Why?
>
> Respondeo:
>
> No blame to those who have already posted replies, but I feel that
people tend to place overmuch emphasis on the importance of
aristocratic self-publicists like C. Iulius Caesar and Octavius
(Augustus) Caesar, and the patrician families of Rome herself. Until
fairly recently, historians have tended to do the same.
>
> The main reason, of course, is that the testimony of Rome's ruling
elite is mostly what survives; but it is by no means all, of which we
are the inheritors, that is not dust.
>
> Wars are won by soldiers as much as by generals; illustrious heads
of patrician gentes maintained their virtuous pre-eminence as much
through the supportive loyalty of their lesser relations, freed
clients, and slaves, as by their own efforts; good laws are made not
only by politicians, but by the people who agree to keep those laws.
>
> It is all too easy to forget this. The very word 'notable' has a
second meaning, i.e., a member of a society's elite - and it implies
that the ordinary man or woman is not worthy of note.
>
> So let me bring to your ears the words of an ordinary Roman, which
I found on the Pannonia website (translation by Alexandrus I. C.
Probus Macedonicus):
>
> Soran From Batavian Cavalry
>
> /epitaphy from a grave/
>
> Here I am, who was famous in the whole Pannonia
>
> Hadrianus awarded the palm to me, when from Batavians
>
> Thousands brave men, I succeeded The Danube deepness
>
> To overcome swimming his waters in full armours
>
> The flying arrow falling down
>
> In the air I split it with my arrow.
>
> And on throwing spear, no Roman warrior, no Barbarians
>
> Won over me neither no Parthian on shooting with a bow.
>
> Memmoried here on the stone are my deeds.
>
> Those who read that let follow my feats
>
> As an example I served for myself having done them as first.
>
>
>
> This man's great-grandfather will have been a barbarian. He
himself, in his finest hour, would not have had the dignity of Roman
citizenship, having not yet completed his 25 years' auxiliary
service. But to me, he is no less a Roman for all that.
>
> Citizens, let those of us who are ordinary men and women in the
macronational states in which we reside, pause in our acclamation of
the powerful, and consider our own self-worth and potential, as this
Batavian cavalry trooper urges. Such self-pride, I believe, is the
Romanitas that built and maintained the Empire.
>
> Think of all the lesser beings who Caesar Augustus might have
thanked, and co-immortalized, for the achievements listed in his 'Res
Gestae', but didn't bother to. And pour a libation to their shades
when you have a moment.
>
> Mea sententia.
>
> Vado.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee!
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/7872/8/_/61050/_/967066722/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-