| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: A day to remember |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:37:50 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Aeternia;
I'm glad you enjoyed. Every now and then I get a creative streak, kind
of like a shock with a car battery. It doesn't last long but sometimes
something emerges which is not half bad.
Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Most Notable Romans |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:37:11 -0600 |
|
Salve, Caius Flavius Diocletianus!
In regards to ancient engineering, I've just finished an absolutely fascinating
book called "The Ancient Engineeers" written by none other than L. Sprague de Camp
(the fantasy novelist). It's a bit dated (1963) and interspersed at times with a
bit of annoying editorializing, but it provides an interesting and exhaustive
layman's survey of not just the Romans, but of the entire milieau of ancient
engineering. It contains discrete chapters on Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek,
Hellenistic, EARLY ROMAN, LATE ROMAN, Oriental (half Near East/lByzantine, half
Far East) and medieval "post-Roman" Europe as a transition state between clearly
ancient and clearly modern engineering.
What I particularly like about it is that he references lots of ancient writers in
their historical context, and describes in detail arcane feats of engineering as
documented by the ancients. You could read this and know where to start looking in
the surviving ancient texts.
I found the book at Barnes & Noble for $6.99. It's also available through Amazon,
which gives it a 5-star ranking and calls it "reasonably scholarly but nonetheless
accessible history".
Also on my bookshelf is "The Roman Engineers" by L.A. and J.A. Hamey, but I
haven't read it yet. It's a lot heavier on the pictures and a lot lighter on the
details than de Camp's book, and it's only 48 pages, as oppossed to de Camp's 108
pages on Rome alone....it's a true survey of highlights, and doesn't hook you into
the ancient writers.
Hope this helps!
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Legatus Engineering and Cartography, Sodalitas Militarium
Paul R Neacsu wrote:
> One should not forget the engineering feats of the ancient Romans. Being very
> new to this group, could anyone direct me to information about this aspect?
>
> Regards.
>
> Caius Flavius Diocletianus wrote:
>
> > Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D
> >
> > Of course, the persons metioned are mostly politicians, emperors or
> > soldiers. Iīm very happy that also philosophers are listed.
> >
> > But, Romans, please donīt forget: Roman history was a history of Wars. Our
> > ancient ancestors thought that they were doomed to rule the world. The most
> > important persons in ancient times were, of course, politicians and soldiers
> > (during the most time almost in personal union). These men were symbols for
> > the honourable roman way of live: Military and administrative service for
> > the res publica. Most of these men really personified the roman traditions
> > (of course less or more..)
> >
> > The philosophers are some few, interesting men. Cicero was a lawyer and a
> > politician, but no soldier, M. Aurelius was emperor and soldier and
> > philosopher. Cicero symbolizes the "Homo Novus" in roman republican times.
> > M. Aurelius is a symbol for the roman emperor with strong hellenistic
> > influence (as also Hadrianus). They were in my humble opinion famous, but no
> > "typical", Romans.
> >
> > Valete
> > Caius Flavius Diocletianus
> >
> > "L. Cornelius Sulla" schrieb:
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Gaius Metellus Valentinus" <websurfer07@-------->
> > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 5:59 PM
> > > Subject: [novaroma] Re: Most Notable Romans
> > >
> > > > --- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mar--------O--------ius Germani-------- <hu---------------->
> > > > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 5:44 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Most Notable Romans
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vale Luci Corneli,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix - Dictator of Rome
> > > > > > > Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
> > > > > > > Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus
> > > > > > > Cornelia mother of the Gracchi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I sense a pattern here!
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course! :) I gotta list one of the most illustrious Gens's in
> > > > Ancient
> > > > > Rome's history first! The Gens Cornelia held the Consulship more
> > > > times in
> > > > > ancient Rome than any other Gens. 106 times! :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > >
> > > > Salvete omnes,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It's interesting. So far I haven't seen too many authors or
> > > > philosophers named. There has been a mostly political and military
> > > > bent to the names contributed.
> > > > What of Vergil, Ovid, Horace, Livy etc.? Any takers?
> > > > Just an observation.
> > >
> > > Oh yeah....the literary arts....well my favs would be:
> > >
> > > M. Tullius Cicero
> > > Polybius (yes I know he is a Greek)
> > > Tacitus
> > > Seutonius
> > > Ovid
> > > M. Aurelius
> > > and some others I cant think of!
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 981 Notable Romans: Alternative History |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:56:13 -0600 |
|
Salvete Omnes:
I, too, have the "Scipio Africanus: Greater than Napoleon" mentioned below, and
heartily recommend it to anyone interested in Cornelius Scipio Africanus.
Also, I've noticed that dear Seneca (my least favorite Stoic, a bit of a gossip)
devotes his Letter LXXXVI in "Letters from a Stoic" to some interesting
ruminations about Scipio Africanus and his preferred mode of living while
staying at Africanus' country house. Very interesting. I'm not sure, but I
think Seneca is wishing more people were like Africanus -- it's very much of the
"Africanus was a Real Roman, all you moderns are whiny wimps and should be
ashamed if Africanus could see your sorry, decadent selves " sort of tone.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Lucius wrote:
> Lucius Equitius Quirinibus SPD
>
> Inquit P. Cassia:
> >Who, in your opinion, are the men and women of historical record who best
> represent the spirit of Rome, both for good and for ill? Why?
>
> Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, Roman general, Statesmen,
> Scipio Africanus: Soldier and Politician by H.H.Scullard, 1970, isbn
> 8014-0549-1 (out of print)
> (took me over a year to find this, it cost me but was worth it)
> Scipio Africanus: Greater than Napoleon by B.H.Liddell Hart, ISBN
> 0-306-80583-9
> I highly recommend this one! $14.40 @ Amazon and B&N
>
> Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, Roman general, Statesman,& Farmer
> Livy
>
> Both of these men are to be admired, and for the reason they are not so well
> known. They valued virtue over personal gain.
>
> Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Interesting Link |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:40:00 -0700 |
|
that is on the Los Angeles Times today:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20000824/t000079414.html
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Druids |
| From: |
"j.mason4" <j.mason4@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:16:52 +0100 |
|
Salve,
I begin to wonder if the neo Druids actually used the Roman sources for their later-day revival ceremonies as they are quite detailed.
The poet Lucan, in a celebrated passage on the Druids.
"The Druids now, while arms are heard no more,
Old mysteries and barbarous rites restore;
Thrice happy they beneath their northern skies,
Who that worst fear, the fear of death, despise;
Hence they no cares for the frail being feel,
But rush undaunted on the pointed steel:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Druids |
| From: |
"Redd" <jsimmons@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:48:51 -0700 |
|
Salve,
Connections between Celts and Gaul would make sense, as, if I remember my
history correctly, the British Isles was the place they finally settled.
They originated in Centralish Europe and even had some degree of power and
expanded, that is until Rome expanded and took control of the area. I
believe there are accounts of the Roman army encountering them in battle.
The question that perhaps should be addressed is, "Is Druidism strictly
Celtish?" If the answer is yes, then they (Celts and thereby Druids) would
be of Central European origination. If the answer is no, ...??????
Porcia
----- Original Message -----
From: j.mason4 <j.mason4@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
> Salve,
>
> According to the commentaries they had links to Gaul, that's where they
went
> for training . I am looking for a separate account to back up Caesar's
> claims.No Druid records are in existence, Tackitus also wrote of their
> macabre rituals but it seems these accounts are all we have to go on.
>
> Benevolentia
> ~~S~~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul R Neacsu <pneacsu@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
>
>
> > Druids are very much a Celtic thing I believe. I have a friend who might
> be able to help here in the US and a few from the UK as
> > well.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > "j.mason4" wrote:
> >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > I read somewhere that Druids were of foreign extraction, does anyone
> have any possible leads or useful URL.Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Benevolentia
> > > ~~S~~
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Druids |
| From: |
"Gaius Metellus Valentinus" <websurfer07@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:35:11 -0000 |
|
--- In novaroma@--------, "Redd" <jsimmons@t...> wrote:
> Salve,
> Connections between Celts and Gaul would make sense, as, if I
remember my
> history correctly, the British Isles was the place they finally
settled.
> They originated in Centralish Europe and even had some degree of
power and
> expanded, that is until Rome expanded and took control of the
area. I
> believe there are accounts of the Roman army encountering them in
battle.
> The question that perhaps should be addressed is, "Is Druidism
strictly
> Celtish?" If the answer is yes, then they (Celts and thereby
Druids) would
> be of Central European origination. If the answer is no, ...??????
>
> Porcia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: j.maso--------lt;j.maso--------...>
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 3:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
>
>
> > Salve,
> >
> > According to the commentaries they had links to Gaul, that's
where they
> went
> > for training . I am looking for a separate account to back up
Caesar's
> > claims.No Druid records are in existence, Tackitus also wrote of
their
> > macabre rituals but it seems these accounts are all we have to go
on.
> >
> > Benevolentia
> > ~~S~~
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul R N--------u <pn--------u@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
> >
> >
> > > Druids are very much a Celtic thing I believe. I have a friend
who might
> > be able to help here in the US and a few from the UK as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > "j.mason4" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > I read somewhere that Druids were of foreign extraction, does
anyone
> > have any possible leads or useful URL.Thanks in advance.
> > > >
> > > > Benevolentia
> > > > ~~S~~
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Salve,
I too have heard that young men were sent to Gaul for training
as druids. It was a training that lasted 20 years. Although the
consensus is that druids were priests, they also had political
functions and even had the power to settle conflicts between tribes.
Some chieftains, such as Divitiacos and Dumnorix were druids. They
were teachers, philosophers, keepers of morals, law and maintained
the doctrine of immortality (which incidentally is mentioned as one
of the first cultures to institute it as a doctrine). They were
allowed to take military decisions as well.
Since Celtic expansion happened in stages, it's a little
difficult to know whether druidism originated in Gaul. The first
mention of it by historians (Romans) is the 3rd. century B.C. The
first cultural expansion was the Hallstatt (700-500 B.C.) followed by
the La Tene (500-100 B.C.).
It's interesting to note that Livy claimed that Celtic expansion
was due too overpopulation in their original homeland.
For further reading, I would suggest any of the books by Peter
Berresford Ellis, a prominent Celtic scholar. His book, "The Celtic
Empire: The First Millenium of Celtic History 1000 B.C.-51 A.D." is
an excellent survey of Celtic history, with chapters divided by
geography (i.e. Gaul, Italy, Iberia, Ireland etc.). His "Celtic
Inheritance" is very informative as well.
Just some thoughts.
Ave, G. Metellus Valentinus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Notable Romans: Licinius Macer vs Dictator Cornelius Sulla |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:04:24 EDT |
|
Salvete Quiritibus
When we try to remember those Romans who most exemplify true Romanatis,
what it meant or what it did not mean, we should always keep in mind there
are two sides to every tale. Julius Caesar was obviously not the most
popular character to ever walk into the forum. Nor can the Gracchi be
regarded as beloved by all. We should weigh both sides of any story. For
some that was not possible, but occasionally the opinion of the opposition
has been preserved.
A case in point is that of the Dictator Cornelius Sulla. He is really
not a notable figure, other than to depict what we regard loathsome in
dictators. Rather than someone to admire, this perverse individual abused
the authority entrusted to him to subvert the constitution for his personal
benefit and that of his closest allies. But do not allow the ramblings of a
modern to convince you. Instead I offer some of the words once spoken by C.
Licinius Macer, Tribune in 73 b.c.e.
"If you did not realize, my fellow citizens, what a difference there is
between the rights left you by your forefathers and this slavery imposed upon
you by Sulla, I should be obliged to make a long speech ...of what wrongs,
and how often...I am not unaware how great is the power of the nobles, ...
and I know how much more secure a faction of wicked men is than an upright
man alone. But in addition to the fair hopes which you have inspired and
which have dispelled my fear, I have decided that defeat in a struggle for
liberty is for a brave man better than to have never struggled at all.
"And yet others who were elected to maintain your rights have been lead
by personal interest...to turn all their powers and authority against you;
and they consider it better to do wrong for hire than to do right without
recompense. Therefor they have now, one and all, submitted to the mastery of
a few men, who...have taken possession of the treasury, the armies, the
kingdoms and the provinces. These men have made themselves a stronghold from
your spoils, while in the meantime you, ...after being stripped of every
other privilege which your forefathers left you, are left your ballots alone
so that now you yourselves may choose your masters, as once you chose your
defenders.
"...What tempests are now aroused against me! ...the other struggles,
inspired as they were by license, by hatred, by avarice, blaze for only a
short while; but one issue alone has persisted, which has been the aim of
both sides and has been taken away from you for the future: the tribunate
power, a weapon given you by your ancestors, with which to defend your
liberties. Of this fact I warn you and I beg you to bear in mind; do not
change the name of things to suit your own cowardice and give to slavery the
title of peace. Even peace you will not be allowed to enjoy, if ever
wickedness triumph over right and honor; ...
"...but whatever happens, the common are treated as vanquished; and this
will be more so every day, so long as your oppressors make greater efforts to
retain their mastery than you do to regain your freedom."
Valete
Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Retarius et Rogator Sodalitatis Latinitatis
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Lucilla Cornelia |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:34:58 EDT |
|
Salvete Quiritibus
I have just received an email from the sister of Lucilla Cornelia. While
on vacation earlier this month Lucilla was seriously injured in an accident.
She has just recently been transferred to a hospital in New Jersey and is
expected to be released to house rest within two weeks.
For those of you who wish to send Lucilla messages, I can send emails to
an address which her sister will visit once a week and print out to bring to
the hospital. (She prefers to keep her address private for now.) Recently
some of you contacted by IM's someone you thought was Lucilla; that was
really Lucilla's 8 year-old son.
Di Lucillae omnibus nobis salvom et servatum volunt.
Valete
Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Retarius et Rogator Sodalitatis Latinitatis
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Roman Engineering |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:08:59 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salvete, Roman Engineering Sudents (Grin!!!!_
The above includes myself of course. The two books mentioned by Livia
Cornelia are excellent sources. They have been on my library shelf for
several years. Both are the basis of several larger colored drawings
that I have done.
I am particularly interested in Roads and Bridges, although any aspect
of the Roman Engineers is exciting as far as I am concerned. At the end
of my tour as Consul, I hope to have a little more time to pursue those
specific interests.
I am on my way out to a CW Reenactment this morning, but if you will
leave a reminder in my Mail Box Livia, I'll try to dig up a list of
other books relating to Engineering when I return.
The bibliogrphy of those two books should be of some assistance.
Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] About the Druids |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:09:38 -0000 |
|
I don't have it with me at the moment, but Ronald Hutton's "Pagan
Religions of the Ancient British Isles" is a useful summary of the
available information, and deflates a lot of the often poetic but
less than reliable ideas that have circulated about Druids since
their time.
Patricia Cassia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] "I'd Rather Be Roman" |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:26:08 -0000 |
|
I am pleased to announce that Octavius has added my bumper stickers
to the Macellum page. Please stop by (or go directly to
http://www.imperiumarts.com/bumpersticker/) and get yours! Sales of
the stickers provide a small benefit to the Treasury, but the real
goal is to get Nova Roma's name and URL in front of the public.
Patricia Cassia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN [Religio Romana] ante diem VIII Kalendas Septembres (August 25) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:37:31 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action or public business can take place.
Today is the Opiconsivia in honour of Ops Consiva, Goddess of the alimentary
resources of Rome. Ops Consiva has a cult place at the Regia, which is so
sacred that only the Vestal Virgins and the Pontifex Maximus (but only if
wearing the veil of the virgins, the 'suffibulum') can penetrate.
The month Sextilis was changed to Augustus as an homage to Emperor
Octavius Caesar Augustus. This month is sacred to Ceres.
Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN [Religio Romana] ante diem VI Kalendas Septembres (August 27) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:08:11 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
As I will not be available on August 27, I write today the respective
religious note.
****************************************************************************
*******************
This is a dies nefastus publicus (NP), a day for special religious
observance on which no legal action or public business can take place.
This is the Volturnalia, a festival whose objective is to appease Volturnus,
a devastating growling wind Who burns the grapes, and Who has raised clouds
of dust against the Romans at the battle of Cannae. The Flamen Volturnalis
participates on the ceremony.
The month Sextilis was changed to Augustus as an homage to Emperor
Octavius Caesar Augustus. This month is sacred to Ceres.
Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Book about gladiators |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:43:03 -0000 |
|
I've gotten a couple of requests for information on a book, probably
a couple of decades old, that was about Roman gladiators. The title
was something along the lines of "We Who Are About to Die Salute
You." Has anyone heard of this? If so, could you send me the author's
name and correct title?
P. Cassia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Book about gladiators |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson <amgunn@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:18:38 -0500 |
|
Ave P. Cassia:
Venator hic:
"pjane@--------" wrote:
>
> I've gotten a couple of requests for information on a book, probably
> a couple of decades old, that was about Roman gladiators. The title
> was something along the lines of "We Who Are About to Die Salute
> You." Has anyone heard of this? If so, could you send me the author's
> name and correct title?
>
> P. Cassia
>
The book may be "Those About to Die" by Daniel P. Mannix, published by Ballantine Books, New York, NY in 1958. The copy
I have is the fifth printing of June 1969. It is a paperback, for which I paid US$0.75 originally. Definitely pre-ISBN
days.
Mr Mannix was born in Pennsylvania in 1911, apparantly still surviving, and his books are being reprinted as interest is
rising in him once again.
Hope this helps - Venii
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans: Licinius Macer vs Dictator Cornelius Sulla |
| From: |
"j.mason4" <j.mason4@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 04:26:48 +0100 |
|
Salve,
Exactly I never said Caesar was of exceptional good character I was
referring to his general achievements through his life.People forget his
administrative prowess, he even revised the calendar.
Benevolentia
~~S~~
----- Original Message -----
From: <Piscinus@-------->
To: <Novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 12:04 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Notable Romans: Licinius Macer vs Dictator Cornelius
Sulla
> Salvete Quiritibus
>
> When we try to remember those Romans who most exemplify true
Romanatis,
> what it meant or what it did not mean, we should always keep in mind there
> are two sides to every tale. Julius Caesar was obviously not the most
> popular character to ever walk into the forum. Nor can the Gracchi be
> regarded as beloved by all. We should weigh both sides of any story. For
> some that was not possible, but occasionally the opinion of the opposition
> has been preserved.
> A case in point is that of the Dictator Cornelius Sulla. He is really
> not a notable figure, other than to depict what we regard loathsome in
> dictators. Rather than someone to admire, this perverse individual abused
> the authority entrusted to him to subvert the constitution for his
personal
> benefit and that of his closest allies. But do not allow the ramblings of
a
> modern to convince you. Instead I offer some of the words once spoken by
C.
> Licinius Macer, Tribune in 73 b.c.e.
>
> "If you did not realize, my fellow citizens, what a difference there
is
> between the rights left you by your forefathers and this slavery imposed
upon
> you by Sulla, I should be obliged to make a long speech ...of what wrongs,
> and how often...I am not unaware how great is the power of the nobles, ...
> and I know how much more secure a faction of wicked men is than an upright
> man alone. But in addition to the fair hopes which you have inspired and
> which have dispelled my fear, I have decided that defeat in a struggle for
> liberty is for a brave man better than to have never struggled at all.
> "And yet others who were elected to maintain your rights have been
lead
> by personal interest...to turn all their powers and authority against you;
> and they consider it better to do wrong for hire than to do right without
> recompense. Therefor they have now, one and all, submitted to the mastery
of
> a few men, who...have taken possession of the treasury, the armies, the
> kingdoms and the provinces. These men have made themselves a stronghold
from
> your spoils, while in the meantime you, ...after being stripped of every
> other privilege which your forefathers left you, are left your ballots
alone
> so that now you yourselves may choose your masters, as once you chose your
> defenders.
> "...What tempests are now aroused against me! ...the other struggles,
> inspired as they were by license, by hatred, by avarice, blaze for only a
> short while; but one issue alone has persisted, which has been the aim of
> both sides and has been taken away from you for the future: the tribunate
> power, a weapon given you by your ancestors, with which to defend your
> liberties. Of this fact I warn you and I beg you to bear in mind; do not
> change the name of things to suit your own cowardice and give to slavery
the
> title of peace. Even peace you will not be allowed to enjoy, if ever
> wickedness triumph over right and honor; ...
> "...but whatever happens, the common are treated as vanquished; and
this
> will be more so every day, so long as your oppressors make greater efforts
to
> retain their mastery than you do to regain your freedom."
>
> Valete
>
> Gn. Moravius Piscinus
> Retarius et Rogator Sodalitatis Latinitatis
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Druids |
| From: |
Paul R Neacsu <pneacsu@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:59:20 -0700 |
|
This paper gives an excellent chronology of Celtic history and their relations
with Rome. It also confirms a central European origin.
http://www.zianet.com/ajbrowne/druids.html
Redd wrote:
> Salve,
> Connections between Celts and Gaul would make sense, as, if I remember my
> history correctly, the British Isles was the place they finally settled.
> They originated in Centralish Europe and even had some degree of power and
> expanded, that is until Rome expanded and took control of the area. I
> believe there are accounts of the Roman army encountering them in battle.
> The question that perhaps should be addressed is, "Is Druidism strictly
> Celtish?" If the answer is yes, then they (Celts and thereby Druids) would
> be of Central European origination. If the answer is no, ...??????
>
> Porcia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: j.mason4 <j.mason4@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 3:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
>
> > Salve,
> >
> > According to the commentaries they had links to Gaul, that's where they
> went
> > for training . I am looking for a separate account to back up Caesar's
> > claims.No Druid records are in existence, Tackitus also wrote of their
> > macabre rituals but it seems these accounts are all we have to go on.
> >
> > Benevolentia
> > ~~S~~
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul R Neacsu <pneacsu@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
> >
> >
> > > Druids are very much a Celtic thing I believe. I have a friend who might
> > be able to help here in the US and a few from the UK as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > "j.mason4" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > I read somewhere that Druids were of foreign extraction, does anyone
> > have any possible leads or useful URL.Thanks in advance.
> > > >
> > > > Benevolentia
> > > > ~~S~~
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Druids |
| From: |
Paul R Neacsu <pneacsu@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:06:13 -0700 |
|
And this is an excellent source for Roman Engineering:
http://myron.sjsu.edu/romeweb/engineer/engineer.htm
Redd wrote:
> Salve,
> Connections between Celts and Gaul would make sense, as, if I remember my
> history correctly, the British Isles was the place they finally settled.
> They originated in Centralish Europe and even had some degree of power and
> expanded, that is until Rome expanded and took control of the area. I
> believe there are accounts of the Roman army encountering them in battle.
> The question that perhaps should be addressed is, "Is Druidism strictly
> Celtish?" If the answer is yes, then they (Celts and thereby Druids) would
> be of Central European origination. If the answer is no, ...??????
>
> Porcia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: j.mason4 <j.mason4@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 3:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
>
> > Salve,
> >
> > According to the commentaries they had links to Gaul, that's where they
> went
> > for training . I am looking for a separate account to back up Caesar's
> > claims.No Druid records are in existence, Tackitus also wrote of their
> > macabre rituals but it seems these accounts are all we have to go on.
> >
> > Benevolentia
> > ~~S~~
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul R Neacsu <pneacsu@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
> >
> >
> > > Druids are very much a Celtic thing I believe. I have a friend who might
> > be able to help here in the US and a few from the UK as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > "j.mason4" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > I read somewhere that Druids were of foreign extraction, does anyone
> > have any possible leads or useful URL.Thanks in advance.
> > > >
> > > > Benevolentia
> > > > ~~S~~
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN Rogator candidates |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:01:35 EDT |
|
>From the Senior Consul, Salvete:
The Senate requests each of the candidates to provide it with a
paragraph of information about themselves.
Information should include age, occupation, regularity
of access to the computer including e-mail programs
as well as other qualifications they might think invaluable
to the position. Said information should be sent to
The senate@--------
Valete!
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Weekend Reenactment |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:14:52 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salvete, Senate Fathers and Citizens;
I will be leaving shortly for a weekend CW reenactment in Mass. I turn
over this Senate Call to my Co-Consul, with the assurance that he will
execute the activity with skill, energy and care. The Agenda was for
the most part his selection although we have both reviewed such.
If the vote occurs before my return, I hereby give into the keeping of
my friend and colleague Senator Merrulus my Proxy Vote, to exercise as
he shall see fit in my absence, should that action be necessary.
My apologies for this interruption in regards to my attentions but this
is the season, and others are depending upon my presence and committment
made some time ago.
Valete, Very Respectfully and With My Sincere Regrets;
Marcus Minucius Audens
Consul et Senator
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Lucilla Cornelia |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:36:19 -0700 |
|
OH NO!!! Thank you for the email! Please tell her we are all concerned for
her..and hope her a speedy recovery!!!!!
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Pater
Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> Salvete Quiritibus
>
> I have just received an email from the sister of Lucilla Cornelia. While
> on vacation earlier this month Lucilla was seriously injured in an accident.
> She has just recently been transferred to a hospital in New Jersey and is
> expected to be released to house rest within two weeks.
>
> For those of you who wish to send Lucilla messages, I can send emails to
> an address which her sister will visit once a week and print out to bring to
> the hospital. (She prefers to keep her address private for now.) Recently
> some of you contacted by IM's someone you thought was Lucilla; that was
> really Lucilla's 8 year-old son.
>
> Di Lucillae omnibus nobis salvom et servatum volunt.
>
> Valete
> Gn. Moravius Piscinus
> Retarius et Rogator Sodalitatis Latinitatis
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Notable Romans |
| From: |
marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:04:07 -0000 |
|
Salvete!
Everyone's discussing if notable means "Worthy of note"
morally pure. Killing innocents? Aren't those qualifications
for the title of Notable:-)
I'm surprised no one's mentioned Gaius Marius yet, actually.
Okay, so when he went mad he butchered senators, but the same
could be said for Sulla and the Knights. I also think his
seven consulships is more than worthy of note.
Hope this helps,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Notable Romans: Licinius Macer vs Dictator Cornelius Sulla |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:06:25 -0700 |
|
Ave, I have a question, exactly what is "true Romanatis? Becuase as I see it,
every Roman we site, was human and had flaws. What made each Roman, that I have
seen on the lists, was that they were able to overcome their flaws and contribute
something great to their field of speclity. My namesake ancestor was exactly
such a Roman. He was definately human, but he also ended the first rounds of
Civil War. He had proscrption lists and ended many lives, but he tried to
rebuild and reinforce the Republic. He abused authority but he was a cosummate
politician and when he finally became a soldier, he was an undefeated General.
He overcame obstacles that would have taken lesser men down, both politically and
militarily! How many Romans can you say were still able to defeat a Foreign King
while at the same time trying to protect his troops from another Roman Army, that
threatened his army's existence? I respect my namesake as a Great Roman, who
lived in extremly turbulent times. And, I believe that he was a true Roman, how
didnt care what people would think of him, becuase he felt he did his best with
the tools he had available with him.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
*Honored to be named after this great Roman*
Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> Salvete Quiritibus
>
> When we try to remember those Romans who most exemplify true Romanatis,
> what it meant or what it did not mean, we should always keep in mind there
> are two sides to every tale. Julius Caesar was obviously not the most
> popular character to ever walk into the forum. Nor can the Gracchi be
> regarded as beloved by all. We should weigh both sides of any story. For
> some that was not possible, but occasionally the opinion of the opposition
> has been preserved.
> A case in point is that of the Dictator Cornelius Sulla. He is really
> not a notable figure, other than to depict what we regard loathsome in
> dictators. Rather than someone to admire, this perverse individual abused
> the authority entrusted to him to subvert the constitution for his personal
> benefit and that of his closest allies. But do not allow the ramblings of a
> modern to convince you. Instead I offer some of the words once spoken by C.
> Licinius Macer, Tribune in 73 b.c.e.
>
> "If you did not realize, my fellow citizens, what a difference there is
> between the rights left you by your forefathers and this slavery imposed upon
> you by Sulla, I should be obliged to make a long speech ...of what wrongs,
> and how often...I am not unaware how great is the power of the nobles, ...
> and I know how much more secure a faction of wicked men is than an upright
> man alone. But in addition to the fair hopes which you have inspired and
> which have dispelled my fear, I have decided that defeat in a struggle for
> liberty is for a brave man better than to have never struggled at all.
> "And yet others who were elected to maintain your rights have been lead
> by personal interest...to turn all their powers and authority against you;
> and they consider it better to do wrong for hire than to do right without
> recompense. Therefor they have now, one and all, submitted to the mastery of
> a few men, who...have taken possession of the treasury, the armies, the
> kingdoms and the provinces. These men have made themselves a stronghold from
> your spoils, while in the meantime you, ...after being stripped of every
> other privilege which your forefathers left you, are left your ballots alone
> so that now you yourselves may choose your masters, as once you chose your
> defenders.
> "...What tempests are now aroused against me! ...the other struggles,
> inspired as they were by license, by hatred, by avarice, blaze for only a
> short while; but one issue alone has persisted, which has been the aim of
> both sides and has been taken away from you for the future: the tribunate
> power, a weapon given you by your ancestors, with which to defend your
> liberties. Of this fact I warn you and I beg you to bear in mind; do not
> change the name of things to suit your own cowardice and give to slavery the
> title of peace. Even peace you will not be allowed to enjoy, if ever
> wickedness triumph over right and honor; ...
> "...but whatever happens, the common are treated as vanquished; and this
> will be more so every day, so long as your oppressors make greater efforts to
> retain their mastery than you do to regain your freedom."
>
> Valete
>
> Gn. Moravius Piscinus
> Retarius et Rogator Sodalitatis Latinitatis
>
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Greatest Romans |
| From: |
JSA <varromurena@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:31:52 -0700 (PDT) |
|
> But, if I am going to list them, I think the
> following would be included:
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix - Dictator of Rome
OH, please! Sulla Felix??? The man who, when stripped
of his command against Mithridates--legally I might
add--turned around and started the first civil war for
his own aggrandizement? And instituted the first
political slaughter of his opponents? And after
started a SECOND civil war, ending in a brutal siege
of Rome itself, followed by a slaughter of most of the
chief citizens? The TRUE Roman would NEVER engage in
civil war, or slaughter of the citizenry! Even during
the struggle of the orders, or the aftermath of
Cannae, Romans NEVER slaughtered each other in the
name of personal power.
> Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
> Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus
> Cornelia mother of the Gracchi
>
Ok, these make sense, though Scipio Aemilianus didn't
say boo about the Senatorial riot ending in the death
of his cousin Gracchus.
> Other Romans:
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
> C. Iulius Casesar
> C. Marius
> Augustus
> Cn. Pompeius Magnus
Except for Fabius, none of these are TRUE Romans,
exhibiting the spirit of Cincinnatus, for example. All
were megalomaniacs, convinced of their own superiority
over other Romans, and the necessity of themselves for
Rome's continued existence, AND all unwilling to
follow the cursus honorem. This is like saying that
men like Pinochet and Franco and Napoleon are to be
lauded for gutting democracy for their own
aggrandizement. Might as well put Caligula, Nero, and
Elagabulus on that list as well as those you've
already mentioned.
L. Licinius Varro Murena
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Greatest Romans |
| From: |
"Lauriat" <blauriat@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:42:52 -0400 |
|
In defense of Sulla-he did do a great deal in the name of reinstating
republican systems and honoring the mos maiorum. I personally think that
both Gaius Marius and L Cornelius Sulla are notable Romans and they both had
incredible accomplishments in addition to the character failings that made
them human.
-Lauria Maria
----- Original Message -----
From: JSA <varromurena@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Greatest Romans
> > But, if I am going to list them, I think the
> > following would be included:
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix - Dictator of Rome
>
> OH, please! Sulla Felix??? The man who, when stripped
> of his command against Mithridates--legally I might
> add--turned around and started the first civil war for
> his own aggrandizement? And instituted the first
> political slaughter of his opponents? And after
> started a SECOND civil war, ending in a brutal siege
> of Rome itself, followed by a slaughter of most of the
> chief citizens? The TRUE Roman would NEVER engage in
> civil war, or slaughter of the citizenry! Even during
> the struggle of the orders, or the aftermath of
> Cannae, Romans NEVER slaughtered each other in the
> name of personal power.
>
> > Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
> > Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus
> > Cornelia mother of the Gracchi
> >
>
> Ok, these make sense, though Scipio Aemilianus didn't
> say boo about the Senatorial riot ending in the death
> of his cousin Gracchus.
>
>
> > Other Romans:
> >
> > Q. Fabius Maximus
> > C. Iulius Casesar
> > C. Marius
> > Augustus
> > Cn. Pompeius Magnus
>
> Except for Fabius, none of these are TRUE Romans,
> exhibiting the spirit of Cincinnatus, for example. All
> were megalomaniacs, convinced of their own superiority
> over other Romans, and the necessity of themselves for
> Rome's continued existence, AND all unwilling to
> follow the cursus honorem. This is like saying that
> men like Pinochet and Franco and Napoleon are to be
> lauded for gutting democracy for their own
> aggrandizement. Might as well put Caligula, Nero, and
> Elagabulus on that list as well as those you've
> already mentioned.
>
> L. Licinius Varro Murena
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Another not so noble Roman, Cicero |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 16:14:01 EDT |
|
Salvete Quiritibus
Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in school with a certain
fondness. How many realize that over a hundred years after his death
Cicero's work was stock in trade material for every comic to do stand up in
Rome? Even Juvenal makes a passing comment referring to Cicero, "What
third-rate advocate's blood ever stained the rostra, O fortunate Rome, born
in my great Consulate?"
So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by one of his
contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also regarded as the
better rhetorician of the two:
"I should be troubled and angered by your abuse, Marcus Tullius (Cicero),
if I were sure that your impudence was the result of intentions rather than
of a disordered mind. But since I perceive in you neither moderation nor any
modesty, I shall answer you....Pray, Marcus Tullius (Cicero), are your deeds
and words unknown to us? Have you not lived such a life from childhood that
you thought nothing a disgrace to your body which any other's desire
prompted? Did you not in fact learn all your unchecked torrent of language
UNDER M. Piso at the expense of your chastity? It is, therefore, not at all
surprising that you trade upon it shamefully, when you acquired it most
shamefully.
"But, I suppose, your spirits are raised by the brilliance of your home,
by a wife guilty of sacrilege and dishonored in perjury, by a daughter who is
her mother's rival and is more compliant and submissive to you than a
daughter should be to a parent. Even your house...you obtained by violence
and robbery...And in spite of all this, Cicero declares that he was present
at the council of the immortal gods, from which he, a man who makes disaster
to his country the means of his own glorification, was sent as a protector to
this city and its citizens? Not as its executioner?
"...The man who could do nothing for you was most liable to be falsely
accused under you...If my charges are false, render an account of the amount
of patrimony which you inherited, and of what has come to you by lawsuits,
and tell us where you got the money to buy your house and build your villas
at Tusculum and Pompeii regardless of the expense? If you are now silent,
who could doubt but that you amassed that wealth from the blood and
wretchedness of our citizens?
"(Cicero) is the most unstable of men, a suppliant to his enemies,
insulting to his friends, an adherent now to this party and now of that,
loyal to no one, an unstable senator, a mercenary counsel, free from disgrace
in no member of his body, with a false tongue, thievish hands, a bottomless
gullet, fleeting feet; most dishonored in that part of his body which cannot
honorably be named."
Our excerpt goes on to reveal a few more details of both the public
figure and the private man we know as Cicero. At one point he also ridicules
Cicero's poem, "O fortunate Rome, born in my consulate; fortunate in having
you as her consul, Cicero? ...as if there were any difference between you and
a dictator like Sulla..." Yes, Cicero was relegated with the most unsavory
of Romans by those who knew him. What his contemporaries most remembered
about Cicero was that like Sulla he abused the authority of his office for
profit and his own petty pursuits.
Cicero never did make a reply to Sallustius' charges. There was little
point, as everyone in Rome, as Sallustius mentioned, did know exactly what
kind of person Cicero really was. The pseudo-Cicero reply sometimes found
accompanying this invective on Cicero was actually written centuries later by
an admirer of the former orator. And all those speeches he made in murders
trials, the ones we were taught to so admire, are often nothing more than
examples of an unethical and vile lawyer prosecuting honest men for his own
personal profit.
Such are the heroes of our childhood revealed. So here is another
contest for you to contemplate: What women, rightfully or not, have been
vilified in all of Roman history more than Messalina?
Si curate ut valeatis, bene est.
Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Retarius et Rogator Sodalitatis Latinitatis
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Druids |
| From: |
"j.mason4" <j.mason4@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:37:04 +0100 |
|
So it seems Caesar was not the only hostile outsider to enter Briton.
Benevolentia
~~S~~
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul R Neacsu <pneacsu@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
> This paper gives an excellent chronology of Celtic history and their
relations
> with Rome. It also confirms a central European origin.
>
> http://www.zianet.com/ajbrowne/druids.html
>
> Redd wrote:
>
> > Salve,
> > Connections between Celts and Gaul would make sense, as, if I remember
my
> > history correctly, the British Isles was the place they finally settled.
> > They originated in Centralish Europe and even had some degree of power
and
> > expanded, that is until Rome expanded and took control of the area. I
> > believe there are accounts of the Roman army encountering them in
battle.
> > The question that perhaps should be addressed is, "Is Druidism strictly
> > Celtish?" If the answer is yes, then they (Celts and thereby Druids)
would
> > be of Central European origination. If the answer is no, ...??????
> >
> > Porcia
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: j.mason4 <j.mason4@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 3:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
> >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > According to the commentaries they had links to Gaul, that's where
they
> > went
> > > for training . I am looking for a separate account to back up Caesar's
> > > claims.No Druid records are in existence, Tackitus also wrote of their
> > > macabre rituals but it seems these accounts are all we have to go on.
> > >
> > > Benevolentia
> > > ~~S~~
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Paul R Neacsu <pneacsu@-------->
> > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 10:34 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Druids
> > >
> > >
> > > > Druids are very much a Celtic thing I believe. I have a friend who
might
> > > be able to help here in the US and a few from the UK as
> > > > well.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > "j.mason4" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Salve,
> > > > >
> > > > > I read somewhere that Druids were of foreign extraction, does
anyone
> > > have any possible leads or useful URL.Thanks in advance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Benevolentia
> > > > > ~~S~~
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
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|
| Subject: |
Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: [novaroma] Another not so noble Roman, Cicero |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:41:34 -0700 |
|
Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> Salvete Quiritibus
>
> Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in school with a certain
> fondness. How many realize that over a hundred years after his death
> Cicero's work was stock in trade material for every comic to do stand up in
> Rome? Even Juvenal makes a passing comment referring to Cicero, "What
> third-rate advocate's blood ever stained the rostra, O fortunate Rome, born
> in my great Consulate?"
>
> So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by one of his
> contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also regarded as the
> better rhetorician of the two:
I wonder just what makes one a better rhetorician? And, what types of rhetoric
was there? And how was it practised?
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
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