Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] vilified women
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:38:00 +0100

Salve,

Matidia ( AD 68-119 ), a niece of Trajan and mother of Hadrians wife Sabina
/ was honoured by the title AUGUSTA in AD 112 and upon her death was
eulogised by Hadrian,deified by the emperor and commemorated with a temple
dedication to her memory and that of her mother Marciana.
This from ISBN 0-297-82406-6

Benevolentia
~~S~~

----- Original Message -----
From: <gmvick32@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] vilified women

> Salvete Omnes!
> From Livia Cornelia Aurelia:
>
> You could say that pretty much any woman whose record survived to use
would be a
> Notable Roman, since so few records about women survive compared to men.
> Generally speaking, we know about them either because they did something
> remarkably virtuous, or remarkable lacking in virtue. I certainly place
> Messalina in the "lacking virtue" category.
>
> Here are a few that could lay claim to virtue:
>
> Cornelia, Mother of the Gracchi
> I've already thrown out Cornelia, Mother of the Gracchi as a candidate for
a
> noble woman. Some little is known about her, as I've already posted
before, and
> it's such that I think we can rightly view her as an example of a good and
> virtuous Roman woman. Two of her letters to her sons survive.
>
> Hortensia, the daughter of Quintus Hortensius (contemporary rival of
Cicero)
> Although now lost, it is known that her speech in 42 B.C. was preserved
and read
> many years after it was delivered. When the triumvirs Octavian, Antony,
and
> Lepidus were unable to raise enough money by selling the property of the
people
> they had proscribed (or condemned to death by judicial process for
political
> revenge or financial expediency), they decided to pass an edict demanding
> evaluations of the property of the 1400 wealthiest women, in order to
collect
> money from them.
>
> Hortensia made the speech after appealing and being denied assistance from
> Fulvia, Antony's wife, per the custom that aggreived women appealed to the
wives
> of leaders for aid in their cause.
>
> In her speech, she took the triumvirate to task for first bereaving them
of their
> husbands and sons through the proscriptions, and now taxing the sole means
of
> support (presumably, since the men were already proscribed, predominately
their
> marriage dowries) left to women already widowed and fatherless -- women
who
> themselves had no recourse to the vote or to hold public or military
office, nor
> had participated in civic matters which led to the proscriptions -- in
order to
> fund a civil war which was destroying Rome and was in no way about
glorifying or
> protecting Rome from external peril.
>
> The speech had an effect. The next day the triumvirs reduced considerably
the
> number of women to be taxed, and instead decreed that men worth 100,000
sesterces
> or more were required to make substantial contributions.
>
> Eumachia. Pompeii, 1st cent. A.D.
> Eumachia was priestess and prominent citizen of the city of Pompeii. She
was
> patroness of the guild of fullers (cleaners, dyers, and clothing makers),
one of
> the most influential trade-guilds of the city because of the importance of
the
> wool industry in Pompeii's economy. Although her ancestry was humble, the
> fortune she inherited from her father, a brick manufacturer, enabled her
to marry
> into one of Pompeii's older families. She provided the fullers with a
large and
> beautiful building which was probably used as the guild's headquarters.
>
> Julia Domna. Rome, 3rd cent. A.D.
> (Dio Cassius, History of Rome, 78.2, 18.1-3; 79.23, exc. Early 3rd cent.
A.D. G)
> Julia Domna, born in Syria, was the wife of the emperor Septimius Severus
> (193-211) and mother of his successor, Caracalla (Antoninus, 211-17). She
was
> known for her love of learning and her wit. After her husband's death, she
> supported her younger son, Geta, in his unsuccessful claim to the throne
against
> Caracalla. After Caracalla killed Geta, and during Caracalla's reign, she
> supported him publicly. After his death she unsuccessfully plotted to
secure the
> rulership herself. When her breast cancer advanced, she ended her life
through
> starvation. (as recorded by Dio Cassius)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Piscinus@-------- wrote:
>
> > Salvete Quiritibus!
> >
> > I have received an email from L. Cornelius Quirinis asking for a
> > clarification on my post that included a query on vilified women in
Roman
> > history. So I thought it best to post my reply here.
> > The name Messalina conjures up a few images, none very flattering.
But I
> > rather feel at times that she, like so many other women in Greek and
Roman
> > myth, had their reputations falsely impugned. How many tales are there
of
> > women cast adrift, or like Auge drowned in the sea? Then there is
Procopius'
> > account of the Empress Theodora's circus act. Messalina was an amateur
> > compared to Saint Theodora.
> > There is some question whether I meant modern Roman women as well as
some
> > Classical examples. Truth is that when I wrote that, I was recalling
Lorenza
> > Cagliostro, sentenced by the Inquisition in 1791 to languish in a
nunnery.
> > In as much as the Classical myths have shaped Western culture and its
> > attitudes toward women over many centuries, yes I do mean modern
examples
> > too. But let us see if we can keep that to a Roman theme. Women, if
modern,
> > who were vilified by being compared to an example drawn from Classic
myth or
> > Rome's ancient history. Or, examples of women vilified in ancient myth
whose
> > image has been changed in modern times. For example Rossetti and the
> > Pre-Raphaelites of the Nineteenth century attempted to change the image
of
> > women in myth, by the way they were to portray them with a subtle
eroticism.
> > In the same period, Sarah Bernhardt's portrayal of Medea on stage
alterred
> > that mythic image, and in turn the way we of today regard women in
society.
> > As for perspective, Quirinis, what we write will naturally be from a
> > modern perspective. But I am curious about the contemporary perspective
of
> > any woman you would care to mention, as that would also give an
indication of
> > how our perspectives have, and have not, changed over the millenniums.
> > So any candidates of notable Roman women?
> >
> > Valete
> > Piscinus
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:08:32 +0100

Julius Caesar ( Gaius Iulius Caesar )

Caesar as well as Emperor and Conqueror WAS A WRITER,
YES HE WROTE does this make him any less notable,NO, if anything this made
him MORE NOTABLE.
The man bragged because he was human AND AN ARTIST, to display a lack of
confidence would be a signal to his enemies that he was weak.
His power was so formidable his rivals had no choice but to eliminate him,
it was his arrogance that led to his downfall YES, But also the very same
arrogance brought him successful leadership.

We argued for Millennia to Decipher
Who was the most notable living by the Tiber;
But ask if you will the ordinary folk
Who is the emperor with whom everyone spoke.
=============
BRUTUS
Remember March, the ides of March remember.
Did not great Julius bleed for justice sake ?
What villain touched his body, that did not stab,
And not for justice ? What, shall one of us,
THAT STRUCK THE FOREMOST MAN OF ALL THIS WORLD.
William Shakespeare SBN 333 08953 7

Benevolentia
~~S~~
----- Original Message -----
From: Lucius <vergil@-------->
To: Nova Roma <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 3:40 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman

> Salvete, Quirites
>
> > Message: 23
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:41:34 -0700
> > From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > Subject: Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman,
> >Cicero
>
> > Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> > > Salvete Quiritibus
> > >
> > > Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in school with a
> > > certain fondness...
> > > So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by one of his
> > > contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also regarded as
> > > the better rhetorician of the two:
> >
> > I wonder just what makes one a better rhetorician?
>
> Who can convince you that their position is correct!?
>
> > And, what types of rhetoric was there?
>
> This is a useful resource.
http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/rhetoric.html
>
> > And how was it practised? Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Tacitus writes on this in his "Dialogus" (Loeb #35 ISBN 0-674-99039-0)
>
> On the 'debates' of "notable Romans", The reason that we know so much
about Gaius Iulius Caesar is because he told us. He was proud what he did to
the Gauls. Consider that when you judge his actions. He was "bragging" about
what a great general he was. So if it was such a "bad" thing to kill a bunch
of Gauls or any other barbarians why would he have mentioned it?
> Caesar had slain the 'boggie man' and brought vast riches to Roma. He was
given unprecedented triumphs. Don't forget when he was assassinated he was
planning to launch an expedition against the Parthians, who had killed
Crassius and his army.
>
> Remember the 'story' of his weeping at the site of a statue to Alexander
and lamenting that by his age Alexander had conquered the 'world'. To the
Romans it was important to leave your mark on the world. Thus, on the
architrave of buildings such as the 'Pantheon' you will see
"M-AGRIPPA-L-F-COS-TERTIVM-FECIT"
>
http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/Pantheon.html/cid_1482174.gbi
>
> He changed the world! No doubt *HE* was notable, whether or not you admire
him. I admire him, but not as much as these others; P Vergilius Maro, P
Ovidius Naso, Sextus Iulius Frontinus, M Vituvius Pollio,
> M Terentius Varro...
>
> >Salve
> >Marcus Cornelius Felix sends greeting to the list
>
> Nice to see you back, Pontifex Felix
>
> Valete, Lucius Equitius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:15:59 -0700

I dont believe that Caesar was Emperor.....ever...he was Dictator.... 3-4
times..the last time Dictator for Life...but never emperor.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
Roman

> Julius Caesar ( Gaius Iulius Caesar )
>
> Caesar as well as Emperor and Conqueror WAS A WRITER,
> YES HE WROTE does this make him any less notable,NO, if anything this
made
> him MORE NOTABLE.
> The man bragged because he was human AND AN ARTIST, to display a lack of
> confidence would be a signal to his enemies that he was weak.
> His power was so formidable his rivals had no choice but to eliminate him,
> it was his arrogance that led to his downfall YES, But also the very same
> arrogance brought him successful leadership.
>
> We argued for Millennia to Decipher
> Who was the most notable living by the Tiber;
> But ask if you will the ordinary folk
> Who is the emperor with whom everyone spoke.
> =============
> BRUTUS
> Remember March, the ides of March remember.
> Did not great Julius bleed for justice sake ?
> What villain touched his body, that did not stab,
> And not for justice ? What, shall one of us,
> THAT STRUCK THE FOREMOST MAN OF ALL THIS WORLD.
> William Shakespeare SBN 333 08953 7
>
> Benevolentia
> ~~S~~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lucius <vergil@-------->
> To: Nova Roma <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 3:40 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
Roman
>
>
> > Salvete, Quirites
> >
> > > Message: 23
> > > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:41:34 -0700
> > > From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > > Subject: Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman,
> > >Cicero
> >
> > > Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> > > > Salvete Quiritibus
> > > >
> > > > Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in school with
a
> > > > certain fondness...
> > > > So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by one of
his
> > > > contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also regarded
as
> > > > the better rhetorician of the two:
> > >
> > > I wonder just what makes one a better rhetorician?
> >
> > Who can convince you that their position is correct!?
> >
> > > And, what types of rhetoric was there?
> >
> > This is a useful resource.
> http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/rhetoric.html
> >
> > > And how was it practised? Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> >
> > Tacitus writes on this in his "Dialogus" (Loeb #35 ISBN 0-674-99039-0)
> >
> > On the 'debates' of "notable Romans", The reason that we know so much
> about Gaius Iulius Caesar is because he told us. He was proud what he did
to
> the Gauls. Consider that when you judge his actions. He was "bragging"
about
> what a great general he was. So if it was such a "bad" thing to kill a
bunch
> of Gauls or any other barbarians why would he have mentioned it?
> > Caesar had slain the 'boggie man' and brought vast riches to Roma. He
was
> given unprecedented triumphs. Don't forget when he was assassinated he was
> planning to launch an expedition against the Parthians, who had killed
> Crassius and his army.
> >
> > Remember the 'story' of his weeping at the site of a statue to Alexander
> and lamenting that by his age Alexander had conquered the 'world'. To the
> Romans it was important to leave your mark on the world. Thus, on the
> architrave of buildings such as the 'Pantheon' you will see
> "M-AGRIPPA-L-F-COS-TERTIVM-FECIT"
> >
>
http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/Pantheon.html/cid_1482174.gbi
> >
> > He changed the world! No doubt *HE* was notable, whether or not you
admire
> him. I admire him, but not as much as these others; P Vergilius Maro, P
> Ovidius Naso, Sextus Iulius Frontinus, M Vituvius Pollio,
> > M Terentius Varro...
> >
> > >Salve
> > >Marcus Cornelius Felix sends greeting to the list
> >
> > Nice to see you back, Pontifex Felix
> >
> > Valete, Lucius Equitius
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] vilified women
From:	"Pixie" <pyxee@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:18:36 -0400

> > Here are a few that could lay claim to virtue:

I would like to add "Turia" (whom I have named myself after)- she was
industrious, intelligent, and stood by husband, whom she adored and whom
adored her, when he was in exile and was shamed. Turia (her full name is
unknown) cared for her family and her sisters after they were orphaned and
even offered to divorce her husband and live with him as his sister becuase
she was barren. Her husband refused to divorce this amazing, kind, loyal and
brave woman. She is a role model of the univira. Her husbands funerary
speech is what survives and is how she is known.

Turia Apollonia Sulpicia Minucia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:35:00 +0100

Salve,

Play with words if you will,
But Gaius was king of the hill.

~~S~~
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:15 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
Roman

> I dont believe that Caesar was Emperor.....ever...he was Dictator.... 3-4
> times..the last time Dictator for Life...but never emperor.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> Roman
>
>
> > Julius Caesar ( Gaius Iulius Caesar )
> >
> > Caesar as well as Emperor and Conqueror WAS A WRITER,
> > YES HE WROTE does this make him any less notable,NO, if anything this
> made
> > him MORE NOTABLE.
> > The man bragged because he was human AND AN ARTIST, to display a lack of
> > confidence would be a signal to his enemies that he was weak.
> > His power was so formidable his rivals had no choice but to eliminate
him,
> > it was his arrogance that led to his downfall YES, But also the very
same
> > arrogance brought him successful leadership.
> >
> > We argued for Millennia to Decipher
> > Who was the most notable living by the Tiber;
> > But ask if you will the ordinary folk
> > Who is the emperor with whom everyone spoke.
> > =============
> > BRUTUS
> > Remember March, the ides of March remember.
> > Did not great Julius bleed for justice sake ?
> > What villain touched his body, that did not stab,
> > And not for justice ? What, shall one of us,
> > THAT STRUCK THE FOREMOST MAN OF ALL THIS WORLD.
> > William Shakespeare SBN 333 08953 7
> >
> > Benevolentia
> > ~~S~~
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lucius <vergil@-------->
> > To: Nova Roma <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 3:40 PM
> > Subject: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> Roman
> >
> >
> > > Salvete, Quirites
> > >
> > > > Message: 23
> > > > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:41:34 -0700
> > > > From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > > > Subject: Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman,
> > > >Cicero
> > >
> > > > Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> > > > > Salvete Quiritibus
> > > > >
> > > > > Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in school
with
> a
> > > > > certain fondness...
> > > > > So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by one of
> his
> > > > > contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also
regarded
> as
> > > > > the better rhetorician of the two:
> > > >
> > > > I wonder just what makes one a better rhetorician?
> > >
> > > Who can convince you that their position is correct!?
> > >
> > > > And, what types of rhetoric was there?
> > >
> > > This is a useful resource.
> > http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/rhetoric.html
> > >
> > > > And how was it practised? Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > >
> > > Tacitus writes on this in his "Dialogus" (Loeb #35 ISBN 0-674-99039-0)
> > >
> > > On the 'debates' of "notable Romans", The reason that we know so much
> > about Gaius Iulius Caesar is because he told us. He was proud what he
did
> to
> > the Gauls. Consider that when you judge his actions. He was "bragging"
> about
> > what a great general he was. So if it was such a "bad" thing to kill a
> bunch
> > of Gauls or any other barbarians why would he have mentioned it?
> > > Caesar had slain the 'boggie man' and brought vast riches to Roma. He
> was
> > given unprecedented triumphs. Don't forget when he was assassinated he
was
> > planning to launch an expedition against the Parthians, who had killed
> > Crassius and his army.
> > >
> > > Remember the 'story' of his weeping at the site of a statue to
Alexander
> > and lamenting that by his age Alexander had conquered the 'world'. To
the
> > Romans it was important to leave your mark on the world. Thus, on the
> > architrave of buildings such as the 'Pantheon' you will see
> > "M-AGRIPPA-L-F-COS-TERTIVM-FECIT"
> > >
> >
>
http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/Pantheon.html/cid_1482174.gbi
> > >
> > > He changed the world! No doubt *HE* was notable, whether or not you
> admire
> > him. I admire him, but not as much as these others; P Vergilius Maro, P
> > Ovidius Naso, Sextus Iulius Frontinus, M Vituvius Pollio,
> > > M Terentius Varro...
> > >
> > > >Salve
> > > >Marcus Cornelius Felix sends greeting to the list
> > >
> > > Nice to see you back, Pontifex Felix
> > >
> > > Valete, Lucius Equitius
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:43:22 -0700

Regardless :) C. Iulius Caesar didnt have the power that Augustus
did....such as Tribunican powers, Censorial Powers, etc.....C. Iulius was
only Dictator.

SF
----- Original Message -----
From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
Roman

> Salve,
>
> Play with words if you will,
> But Gaius was king of the hill.
>
> ~~S~~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> Roman
>
>
> > I dont believe that Caesar was Emperor.....ever...he was Dictator....
3-4
> > times..the last time Dictator for Life...but never emperor.
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
noble
> > Roman
> >
> >
> > > Julius Caesar ( Gaius Iulius Caesar )
> > >
> > > Caesar as well as Emperor and Conqueror WAS A WRITER,
> > > YES HE WROTE does this make him any less notable,NO, if anything this
> > made
> > > him MORE NOTABLE.
> > > The man bragged because he was human AND AN ARTIST, to display a lack
of
> > > confidence would be a signal to his enemies that he was weak.
> > > His power was so formidable his rivals had no choice but to eliminate
> him,
> > > it was his arrogance that led to his downfall YES, But also the very
> same
> > > arrogance brought him successful leadership.
> > >
> > > We argued for Millennia to Decipher
> > > Who was the most notable living by the Tiber;
> > > But ask if you will the ordinary folk
> > > Who is the emperor with whom everyone spoke.
> > > =============
> > > BRUTUS
> > > Remember March, the ides of March remember.
> > > Did not great Julius bleed for justice sake ?
> > > What villain touched his body, that did not stab,
> > > And not for justice ? What, shall one of us,
> > > THAT STRUCK THE FOREMOST MAN OF ALL THIS WORLD.
> > > William Shakespeare SBN 333 08953 7
> > >
> > > Benevolentia
> > > ~~S~~
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Lucius <vergil@-------->
> > > To: Nova Roma <novaroma@-------->
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 3:40 PM
> > > Subject: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> > Roman
> > >
> > >
> > > > Salvete, Quirites
> > > >
> > > > > Message: 23
> > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:41:34 -0700
> > > > > From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > > > > Subject: Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
Roman,
> > > > >Cicero
> > > >
> > > > > Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> > > > > > Salvete Quiritibus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in school
> with
> > a
> > > > > > certain fondness...
> > > > > > So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by one
of
> > his
> > > > > > contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also
> regarded
> > as
> > > > > > the better rhetorician of the two:
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder just what makes one a better rhetorician?
> > > >
> > > > Who can convince you that their position is correct!?
> > > >
> > > > > And, what types of rhetoric was there?
> > > >
> > > > This is a useful resource.
> > > http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/rhetoric.html
> > > >
> > > > > And how was it practised? Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > >
> > > > Tacitus writes on this in his "Dialogus" (Loeb #35 ISBN
0-674-99039-0)
> > > >
> > > > On the 'debates' of "notable Romans", The reason that we know so
much
> > > about Gaius Iulius Caesar is because he told us. He was proud what he
> did
> > to
> > > the Gauls. Consider that when you judge his actions. He was "bragging"
> > about
> > > what a great general he was. So if it was such a "bad" thing to kill a
> > bunch
> > > of Gauls or any other barbarians why would he have mentioned it?
> > > > Caesar had slain the 'boggie man' and brought vast riches to Roma.
He
> > was
> > > given unprecedented triumphs. Don't forget when he was assassinated he
> was
> > > planning to launch an expedition against the Parthians, who had killed
> > > Crassius and his army.
> > > >
> > > > Remember the 'story' of his weeping at the site of a statue to
> Alexander
> > > and lamenting that by his age Alexander had conquered the 'world'. To
> the
> > > Romans it was important to leave your mark on the world. Thus, on the
> > > architrave of buildings such as the 'Pantheon' you will see
> > > "M-AGRIPPA-L-F-COS-TERTIVM-FECIT"
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/Pantheon.html/cid_1482174.gbi
> > > >
> > > > He changed the world! No doubt *HE* was notable, whether or not you
> > admire
> > > him. I admire him, but not as much as these others; P Vergilius Maro,
P
> > > Ovidius Naso, Sextus Iulius Frontinus, M Vituvius Pollio,
> > > > M Terentius Varro...
> > > >
> > > > >Salve
> > > > >Marcus Cornelius Felix sends greeting to the list
> > > >
> > > > Nice to see you back, Pontifex Felix
> > > >
> > > > Valete, Lucius Equitius
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:23:40 -0700

Edictum Censoriale de Civitate Eiuranda

Resignation of citizenship from Nova Roma, as stated in the constitution of Nova Roma (IIA4), is effected by notification to the censores, or by declaration before three or more witnesses. Messages posted on the main Nova Roman e-mail list, and on the Nova Roman message board, meet the requirement for three witnesses to a resignation; messages posted to minority lists, regional, belonging to sodalitates or other such lists or boards, do not meet the requirement for three witnesses to a resignation.

When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation will not take effect for nine days from the date of submitting the message, counting inclusively of the date of submitting the message. If, during this nundina, the citizen desires to withdraw his or her resignation and remain a citizen, that citizen may freely do so without penalty, except as defined in the next paragraph. The citizen can withdraw the resignation by notifying the censores of his/her desire to withdraw the resignation, by at least the same channel that he/she used to submit the resignation. For example, if a citizen submits a message to the e-mail address of the censores, currently censors@--------, stating that he/she resigns, then the citizen must e-mail the censores by the same address to withdraw the resignation.

If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the censores will have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the magistrate will have opportunity to present reasoning for his/her actions, to issue an edictum against the magistrate rendering him/her ineligible to run for elected office for one year. Should the magistrate believe that he/she has a case for appeal of such an edictum, he/she can appeal to a Tribunus Plebis, Praetor or Consul within 30 days of issuance of the edictum as follows-

-- if plebeian, either to a Tribunus Plebis to bring the appeal to the Comitia Plebis Tributa or to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the Comitia Populi Tributa

-- if patrician, to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the Comitia Populi Tributa

Note that the decision to convene these comitia, along with the schedule for doing so, is the purview of the tribuni, consules and praetores, and is therefore beyond the scope of this edict

When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, and the resignation becomes official after nine days, the ex-citizen is barred from reapplication and reinstatement for a period of six months, effective from the date his or her resignation became official.
(For example, if a citizen resigned on May 1 2000, and his resignation
became official on May 9, 2000, he could not be reinstated until November 9, 2000)

The ex-citizen, in the event that he desires to reacquire citizenship, must apply in the same fashion as any other person desirous of citizenship would, with the exception that he/she is directed to state in his/her application the reasons behind his/her resignation and decision to reverse the resignation and come back. His/her Roman name may be resumed if no other citizen of Nova Roma has taken it up in his/her absence. No public offices, titles or century points carry over to the returning citizen, with the exception of any religious title and corresponding century points that may be specified by the Collegium Pontificum. Senatorial status may be resumed at the discretion of both the Senate and of the censores collegially. Gens affiliation in all instances remains at the discretion of the pater or materfamilias.

If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a second time, that ex-citizen is barred for two years from reinstatement. Such a citizen is furthermore barred from running for any elected public office for two years following re-admission, with no recourse.

If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a second time, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a third time, that ex-citizen is barred forever from reinstatement. The ex-citizen has despised his citizenship and shown contempt for the state: he may never be reinstated thereafter.

The Censors will note the dates of submitted and withdrawn resignations in the censorial album civium.

IN LATIN:

Eiuratio novoromanae civitatis ut ius publicum dicit II A iv denuntiatione censoribus fit aut declaratione coram tribus pluribusve Epistulae in publica fora electronica satis postulationi trium testarum faciunt at epistulae in alia fora quae ad provincias vel sodalitates pertinent vel in alia talia illi postulationi non satis faciunt

Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret eiuratio nundinam nec vim nec effectum non habet Si hac nundina civis recipere eiurationem et civis manere desideret hic ita facere potest innocenter nisi caput secundum ad rem pertineat Civis recipere eiurationem scribens censoribus de sua voluntate eam recipere attamen eodem medio quo civis mittens eiurationem usus est Exempli gratia si civis epistulam electronicae inscriptioni cursualis censorum quae hodie est censors@-------- dicentem se civitatem eiurare miserit tum civis eadem inscriptione censoribus mittere epistulam electronicam ad recipiendam eiurationem debebit

Si magistratus in officio uno anno eiurationes multas mittet et recipiet censores causam habebunt post occlusam interrogationem qua magistratus argumenta dare pro suis actis poterit edictum constituere contra hunc magistratum facientem eum non eligendum unum annum Si magistratus se habere causam ad provocationem credet hic provocare ad Tribunum Plebis aut Praetorem Consulemve triginta diebus vel moxius ab edicto facto potest ut secundum dicit

Si plebeianus aut ad Tribunum Plebis ut ille magistratus pro plebe ad suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Plebis Tributis aut ad Praetorem Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo ad suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis Tributis

Si patricius ad Praetorem Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo ad suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis Tributis

Notandum est conficere Comitia quandoque ita facere proprium tribunis et consulibus et praetoribus et ergo extra huius edicti potestatem

Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret et eiruatio post nundinam vim effectumque capiat civis prior accipere civitatem sex menses ab eiuratione effecta non potest

Exempli gratia si cvis civitatem kal mai MMDCCLIII auc eiuravisset et eiuratio vim effectumque cepisset vii id mai MMDCCLIII is accipere civitatem ante iv id nov MMDCCLIII non posset

Civis prior volens de novo civitatem accipere petitionem dare ad civitatem accipendam eodem modo ullius alii civitati volentis debet cum exceptione ut illi dicere in illius petitione rationes ad illius eiurationem et sententiam eiurationis invertendae et illius recipiendi mandetur Civis nomen romanum recipere potest nisi alius civis novoromanus in illius absentia eum ceperit Nulla officia publica nec titula nec puncta centuriata revenienti civi non recipientur praeter ea Collegio Pontificum designata Ordo senatorius potest recipi Senatu et ambobus censoribus consensis De gentilitate semper iudicant patres et matresfamiliae

Si civis civitatem eiuraverit et postea acceperit et iterum eiuraverit talis civis prior accipere civitatem duos annos non poterit Talis civis et non erit eligendus in officium duos annos post civitatem acceptam tertio sine provocatione

Si civis post civitatem acceptam tertio civitatem eiuraverit is civis prior numquam non poterit civitatem accipere Civis prior civitatem suam despexerit et contemptum rei publicae monstraverit ac revenire postea non poterit

Censores dies missarum et receptarum eiurationes civitatis in censoriali albo civium notabunt

________________

This Edicta is up for discussion for 7 days, before it takes effect. If there are any changes, it will be revised and put up for another 7 days.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix et Gaius Marius Merullus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:18:36 +0100

Salve,

Then it is fortunate that his rivals found a democratic method, in which to
oust the evil blaggard !.

Benevolentia
~~S~~
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
Roman

> Regardless :) C. Iulius Caesar didnt have the power that Augustus
> did....such as Tribunican powers, Censorial Powers, etc.....C. Iulius was
> only Dictator.
>
> SF
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> Roman
>
>
> > Salve,
> >
> > Play with words if you will,
> > But Gaius was king of the hill.
> >
> > ~~S~~
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
noble
> > Roman
> >
> >
> > > I dont believe that Caesar was Emperor.....ever...he was Dictator....
> 3-4
> > > times..the last time Dictator for Life...but never emperor.
> > >
> > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:08 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
> noble
> > > Roman
> > >
> > >
> > > > Julius Caesar ( Gaius Iulius Caesar )
> > > >
> > > > Caesar as well as Emperor and Conqueror WAS A WRITER,
> > > > YES HE WROTE does this make him any less notable,NO, if anything
this
> > > made
> > > > him MORE NOTABLE.
> > > > The man bragged because he was human AND AN ARTIST, to display a
lack
> of
> > > > confidence would be a signal to his enemies that he was weak.
> > > > His power was so formidable his rivals had no choice but to
eliminate
> > him,
> > > > it was his arrogance that led to his downfall YES, But also the very
> > same
> > > > arrogance brought him successful leadership.
> > > >
> > > > We argued for Millennia to Decipher
> > > > Who was the most notable living by the Tiber;
> > > > But ask if you will the ordinary folk
> > > > Who is the emperor with whom everyone spoke.
> > > > =============
> > > > BRUTUS
> > > > Remember March, the ides of March remember.
> > > > Did not great Julius bleed for justice sake ?
> > > > What villain touched his body, that did not stab,
> > > > And not for justice ? What, shall one of us,
> > > > THAT STRUCK THE FOREMOST MAN OF ALL THIS WORLD.
> > > > William Shakespeare SBN 333 08953 7
> > > >
> > > > Benevolentia
> > > > ~~S~~
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Lucius <vergil@-------->
> > > > To: Nova Roma <novaroma@-------->
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 3:40 PM
> > > > Subject: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
noble
> > > Roman
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Salvete, Quirites
> > > > >
> > > > > > Message: 23
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:41:34 -0700
> > > > > > From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > > > > > Subject: Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> Roman,
> > > > > >Cicero
> > > > >
> > > > > > Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> > > > > > > Salvete Quiritibus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in school
> > with
> > > a
> > > > > > > certain fondness...
> > > > > > > So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by one
> of
> > > his
> > > > > > > contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also
> > regarded
> > > as
> > > > > > > the better rhetorician of the two:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wonder just what makes one a better rhetorician?
> > > > >
> > > > > Who can convince you that their position is correct!?
> > > > >
> > > > > > And, what types of rhetoric was there?
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a useful resource.
> > > > http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/rhetoric.html
> > > > >
> > > > > > And how was it practised? Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > >
> > > > > Tacitus writes on this in his "Dialogus" (Loeb #35 ISBN
> 0-674-99039-0)
> > > > >
> > > > > On the 'debates' of "notable Romans", The reason that we know so
> much
> > > > about Gaius Iulius Caesar is because he told us. He was proud what
he
> > did
> > > to
> > > > the Gauls. Consider that when you judge his actions. He was
"bragging"
> > > about
> > > > what a great general he was. So if it was such a "bad" thing to kill
a
> > > bunch
> > > > of Gauls or any other barbarians why would he have mentioned it?
> > > > > Caesar had slain the 'boggie man' and brought vast riches to Roma.
> He
> > > was
> > > > given unprecedented triumphs. Don't forget when he was assassinated
he
> > was
> > > > planning to launch an expedition against the Parthians, who had
killed
> > > > Crassius and his army.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember the 'story' of his weeping at the site of a statue to
> > Alexander
> > > > and lamenting that by his age Alexander had conquered the 'world'.
To
> > the
> > > > Romans it was important to leave your mark on the world. Thus, on
the
> > > > architrave of buildings such as the 'Pantheon' you will see
> > > > "M-AGRIPPA-L-F-COS-TERTIVM-FECIT"
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/Pantheon.html/cid_1482174.gbi
> > > > >
> > > > > He changed the world! No doubt *HE* was notable, whether or not
you
> > > admire
> > > > him. I admire him, but not as much as these others; P Vergilius
Maro,
> P
> > > > Ovidius Naso, Sextus Iulius Frontinus, M Vituvius Pollio,
> > > > > M Terentius Varro...
> > > > >
> > > > > >Salve
> > > > > >Marcus Cornelius Felix sends greeting to the list
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice to see you back, Pontifex Felix
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete, Lucius Equitius
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:24:42 -0700

I would like to thank Gaius Lupinius Festus, who gave me the initial idea
for this Edictum, I forgot to mention it in the Email!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 10:23 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum

>
>
> Edictum Censoriale de Civitate Eiuranda
>
> Resignation of citizenship from Nova Roma, as stated in the constitution
of Nova Roma (IIA4), is effected by notification to the censores, or by
declaration before three or more witnesses. Messages posted on the main
Nova Roman e-mail list, and on the Nova Roman message board, meet the
requirement for three witnesses to a resignation; messages posted to
minority lists, regional, belonging to sodalitates or other such lists or
boards, do not meet the requirement for three witnesses to a resignation.
>
> When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation will not
take effect for nine days from the date of submitting the message, counting
inclusively of the date of submitting the message. If, during this nundina,
the citizen desires to withdraw his or her resignation and remain a citizen,
that citizen may freely do so without penalty, except as defined in the next
paragraph. The citizen can withdraw the resignation by notifying the
censores of his/her desire to withdraw the resignation, by at least the same
channel that he/she used to submit the resignation. For example, if a
citizen submits a message to the e-mail address of the censores, currently
censors@--------, stating that he/she resigns, then the citizen must
e-mail the censores by the same address to withdraw the resignation.
>
> If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the censores will
have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the magistrate will have
opportunity to present reasoning for his/her actions, to issue an edictum
against the magistrate rendering him/her ineligible to run for elected
office for one year. Should the magistrate believe that he/she has a case
for appeal of such an edictum, he/she can appeal to a Tribunus Plebis,
Praetor or Consul within 30 days of issuance of the edictum as follows-
>
> -- if plebeian, either to a Tribunus Plebis to bring the appeal to the
Comitia Plebis Tributa or to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the
Comitia Populi Tributa
>
> -- if patrician, to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the Comitia
Populi Tributa
>
> Note that the decision to convene these comitia, along with the schedule
for doing so, is the purview of the tribuni, consules and praetores, and is
therefore beyond the scope of this edict
>
> When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, and the resignation
becomes official after nine days, the ex-citizen is barred from
reapplication and reinstatement for a period of six months, effective from
the date his or her resignation became official.
> (For example, if a citizen resigned on May 1 2000, and his resignation
> became official on May 9, 2000, he could not be reinstated until November
9, 2000)
>
> The ex-citizen, in the event that he desires to reacquire citizenship,
must apply in the same fashion as any other person desirous of citizenship
would, with the exception that he/she is directed to state in his/her
application the reasons behind his/her resignation and decision to reverse
the resignation and come back. His/her Roman name may be resumed if no
other citizen of Nova Roma has taken it up in his/her absence. No public
offices, titles or century points carry over to the returning citizen, with
the exception of any religious title and corresponding century points that
may be specified by the Collegium Pontificum. Senatorial status may be
resumed at the discretion of both the Senate and of the censores
collegially. Gens affiliation in all instances remains at the discretion of
the pater or materfamilias.
>
> If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a second
time, that ex-citizen is barred for two years from reinstatement. Such a
citizen is furthermore barred from running for any elected public office for
two years following re-admission, with no recourse.
>
> If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a second
time, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a third time, that ex-citizen
is barred forever from reinstatement. The ex-citizen has despised his
citizenship and shown contempt for the state: he may never be reinstated
thereafter.
>
> The Censors will note the dates of submitted and withdrawn resignations in
the censorial album civium.
>
> IN LATIN:
>
> Eiuratio novoromanae civitatis ut ius publicum dicit II A iv denuntiatione
censoribus fit aut declaratione coram tribus pluribusve Epistulae in
publica fora electronica satis postulationi trium testarum faciunt at
epistulae in alia fora quae ad provincias vel sodalitates pertinent vel in
alia talia illi postulationi non satis faciunt
>
> Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret eiuratio nundinam nec vim nec
effectum non habet Si hac nundina civis recipere eiurationem et civis
manere desideret hic ita facere potest innocenter nisi caput secundum ad rem
pertineat Civis recipere eiurationem scribens censoribus de sua voluntate
eam recipere attamen eodem medio quo civis mittens eiurationem usus est
Exempli gratia si civis epistulam electronicae inscriptioni cursualis
censorum quae hodie est censors@-------- dicentem se civitatem eiurare
miserit tum civis eadem inscriptione censoribus mittere epistulam
electronicam ad recipiendam eiurationem debebit
>
> Si magistratus in officio uno anno eiurationes multas mittet et recipiet
censores causam habebunt post occlusam interrogationem qua magistratus
argumenta dare pro suis actis poterit edictum constituere contra hunc
magistratum facientem eum non eligendum unum annum Si magistratus se habere
causam ad provocationem credet hic provocare ad Tribunum Plebis aut
Praetorem Consulemve triginta diebus vel moxius ab edicto facto potest ut
secundum dicit
>
> Si plebeianus aut ad Tribunum Plebis ut ille magistratus pro plebe ad
suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Plebis Tributis aut ad Praetorem Consulemve
ut ille magistratus pro populo ad suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis
Tributis
>
> Si patricius ad Praetorem Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo ad
suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis Tributis
>
> Notandum est conficere Comitia quandoque ita facere proprium tribunis et
consulibus et praetoribus et ergo extra huius edicti potestatem
>
> Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret et eiruatio post nundinam vim
effectumque capiat civis prior accipere civitatem sex menses ab eiuratione
effecta non potest
>
> Exempli gratia si cvis civitatem kal mai MMDCCLIII auc eiuravisset et
eiuratio vim effectumque cepisset vii id mai MMDCCLIII is accipere civitatem
ante iv id nov MMDCCLIII non posset
>
> Civis prior volens de novo civitatem accipere petitionem dare ad
civitatem accipendam eodem modo ullius alii civitati volentis debet cum
exceptione ut illi dicere in illius petitione rationes ad illius eiurationem
et sententiam eiurationis invertendae et illius recipiendi mandetur Civis
nomen romanum recipere potest nisi alius civis novoromanus in illius
absentia eum ceperit Nulla officia publica nec titula nec puncta centuriata
revenienti civi non recipientur praeter ea Collegio Pontificum designata
Ordo senatorius potest recipi Senatu et ambobus censoribus consensis De
gentilitate semper iudicant patres et matresfamiliae
>
> Si civis civitatem eiuraverit et postea acceperit et iterum eiuraverit
talis civis prior accipere civitatem duos annos non poterit Talis civis et
non erit eligendus in officium duos annos post civitatem acceptam tertio
sine provocatione
>
> Si civis post civitatem acceptam tertio civitatem eiuraverit is civis
prior numquam non poterit civitatem accipere Civis prior civitatem suam
despexerit et contemptum rei publicae monstraverit ac revenire postea non
poterit
>
> Censores dies missarum et receptarum eiurationes civitatis in censoriali
albo civium notabunt
>
> ________________
>
> This Edicta is up for discussion for 7 days, before it takes effect. If
there are any changes, it will be revised and put up for another 7 days.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix et Gaius Marius Merullus
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:26:54 -0700

Assassination as a democratic method....OOOOkk...... maybe in your opinion!
I dont think assassination much of a method accept to cause disruption and
disarray in a government.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
Roman

> Salve,
>
> Then it is fortunate that his rivals found a democratic method, in which
to
> oust the evil blaggard !.
>
> Benevolentia
> ~~S~~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> Roman
>
>
> > Regardless :) C. Iulius Caesar didnt have the power that Augustus
> > did....such as Tribunican powers, Censorial Powers, etc.....C. Iulius
was
> > only Dictator.
> >
> > SF
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
noble
> > Roman
> >
> >
> > > Salve,
> > >
> > > Play with words if you will,
> > > But Gaius was king of the hill.
> > >
> > > ~~S~~
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:15 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
> noble
> > > Roman
> > >
> > >
> > > > I dont believe that Caesar was Emperor.....ever...he was
Dictator....
> > 3-4
> > > > times..the last time Dictator for Life...but never emperor.
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> > > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:08 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
> > noble
> > > > Roman
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Julius Caesar ( Gaius Iulius Caesar )
> > > > >
> > > > > Caesar as well as Emperor and Conqueror WAS A WRITER,
> > > > > YES HE WROTE does this make him any less notable,NO, if anything
> this
> > > > made
> > > > > him MORE NOTABLE.
> > > > > The man bragged because he was human AND AN ARTIST, to display a
> lack
> > of
> > > > > confidence would be a signal to his enemies that he was weak.
> > > > > His power was so formidable his rivals had no choice but to
> eliminate
> > > him,
> > > > > it was his arrogance that led to his downfall YES, But also the
very
> > > same
> > > > > arrogance brought him successful leadership.
> > > > >
> > > > > We argued for Millennia to Decipher
> > > > > Who was the most notable living by the Tiber;
> > > > > But ask if you will the ordinary folk
> > > > > Who is the emperor with whom everyone spoke.
> > > > > =============
> > > > > BRUTUS
> > > > > Remember March, the ides of March remember.
> > > > > Did not great Julius bleed for justice sake ?
> > > > > What villain touched his body, that did not stab,
> > > > > And not for justice ? What, shall one of us,
> > > > > THAT STRUCK THE FOREMOST MAN OF ALL THIS WORLD.
> > > > > William Shakespeare SBN 333 08953 7
> > > > >
> > > > > Benevolentia
> > > > > ~~S~~
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Lucius <vergil@-------->
> > > > > To: Nova Roma <novaroma@-------->
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 3:40 PM
> > > > > Subject: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
> noble
> > > > Roman
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Salvete, Quirites
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Message: 23
> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:41:34 -0700
> > > > > > > From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > > > > > > Subject: Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> > Roman,
> > > > > > >Cicero
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> > > > > > > > Salvete Quiritibus
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in
school
> > > with
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > certain fondness...
> > > > > > > > So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by
one
> > of
> > > > his
> > > > > > > > contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also
> > > regarded
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > the better rhetorician of the two:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I wonder just what makes one a better rhetorician?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Who can convince you that their position is correct!?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And, what types of rhetoric was there?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a useful resource.
> > > > > http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/rhetoric.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And how was it practised? Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tacitus writes on this in his "Dialogus" (Loeb #35 ISBN
> > 0-674-99039-0)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On the 'debates' of "notable Romans", The reason that we know so
> > much
> > > > > about Gaius Iulius Caesar is because he told us. He was proud what
> he
> > > did
> > > > to
> > > > > the Gauls. Consider that when you judge his actions. He was
> "bragging"
> > > > about
> > > > > what a great general he was. So if it was such a "bad" thing to
kill
> a
> > > > bunch
> > > > > of Gauls or any other barbarians why would he have mentioned it?
> > > > > > Caesar had slain the 'boggie man' and brought vast riches to
Roma.
> > He
> > > > was
> > > > > given unprecedented triumphs. Don't forget when he was
assassinated
> he
> > > was
> > > > > planning to launch an expedition against the Parthians, who had
> killed
> > > > > Crassius and his army.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember the 'story' of his weeping at the site of a statue to
> > > Alexander
> > > > > and lamenting that by his age Alexander had conquered the 'world'.
> To
> > > the
> > > > > Romans it was important to leave your mark on the world. Thus, on
> the
> > > > > architrave of buildings such as the 'Pantheon' you will see
> > > > > "M-AGRIPPA-L-F-COS-TERTIVM-FECIT"
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/Pantheon.html/cid_1482174.gbi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He changed the world! No doubt *HE* was notable, whether or not
> you
> > > > admire
> > > > > him. I admire him, but not as much as these others; P Vergilius
> Maro,
> > P
> > > > > Ovidius Naso, Sextus Iulius Frontinus, M Vituvius Pollio,
> > > > > > M Terentius Varro...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Salve
> > > > > > >Marcus Cornelius Felix sends greeting to the list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nice to see you back, Pontifex Felix
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete, Lucius Equitius
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:18:09 +0100

Oh I don't know it cuts out allot of the bureau-cratic red tape, perhaps
they might of found a more subtle method, like an exploding Monte Cristo.

Benevolentia
~~S~~
----- Original Message -----
From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
Roman

> Assassination as a democratic method....OOOOkk...... maybe in your
opinion!
> I dont think assassination much of a method accept to cause disruption and
> disarray in a government.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> Roman
>
>
> > Salve,
> >
> > Then it is fortunate that his rivals found a democratic method, in which
> to
> > oust the evil blaggard !.
> >
> > Benevolentia
> > ~~S~~
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
noble
> > Roman
> >
> >
> > > Regardless :) C. Iulius Caesar didnt have the power that Augustus
> > > did....such as Tribunican powers, Censorial Powers, etc.....C. Iulius
> was
> > > only Dictator.
> > >
> > > SF
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
> noble
> > > Roman
> > >
> > >
> > > > Salve,
> > > >
> > > > Play with words if you will,
> > > > But Gaius was king of the hill.
> > > >
> > > > ~~S~~
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: L. Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 1:15 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
> > noble
> > > > Roman
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I dont believe that Caesar was Emperor.....ever...he was
> Dictator....
> > > 3-4
> > > > > times..the last time Dictator for Life...but never emperor.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
> > > > > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:08 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not
so
> > > noble
> > > > > Roman
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Julius Caesar ( Gaius Iulius Caesar )
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Caesar as well as Emperor and Conqueror WAS A WRITER,
> > > > > > YES HE WROTE does this make him any less notable,NO, if
anything
> > this
> > > > > made
> > > > > > him MORE NOTABLE.
> > > > > > The man bragged because he was human AND AN ARTIST, to display a
> > lack
> > > of
> > > > > > confidence would be a signal to his enemies that he was weak.
> > > > > > His power was so formidable his rivals had no choice but to
> > eliminate
> > > > him,
> > > > > > it was his arrogance that led to his downfall YES, But also the
> very
> > > > same
> > > > > > arrogance brought him successful leadership.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We argued for Millennia to Decipher
> > > > > > Who was the most notable living by the Tiber;
> > > > > > But ask if you will the ordinary folk
> > > > > > Who is the emperor with whom everyone spoke.
> > > > > > =============
> > > > > > BRUTUS
> > > > > > Remember March, the ides of March remember.
> > > > > > Did not great Julius bleed for justice sake ?
> > > > > > What villain touched his body, that did not stab,
> > > > > > And not for justice ? What, shall one of us,
> > > > > > THAT STRUCK THE FOREMOST MAN OF ALL THIS WORLD.
> > > > > > William Shakespeare SBN 333 08953 7
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Benevolentia
> > > > > > ~~S~~
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Lucius <vergil@-------->
> > > > > > To: Nova Roma <novaroma@-------->
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 3:40 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so
> > noble
> > > > > Roman
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salvete, Quirites
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Message: 23
> > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:41:34 -0700
> > > > > > > > From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> > > > > > > > Subject: Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble
> > > Roman,
> > > > > > > >Cicero
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Piscinus@-------- wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Salvete Quiritibus
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Most of us recall how Cicero was presented to us in
> school
> > > > with
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > certain fondness...
> > > > > > > > > So here are offered a few edited comments on Cicero by
> one
> > > of
> > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > contemporaries, Sallustius, who in an earlier age was also
> > > > regarded
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > the better rhetorician of the two:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I wonder just what makes one a better rhetorician?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Who can convince you that their position is correct!?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And, what types of rhetoric was there?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is a useful resource.
> > > > > > http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/rhetoric.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And how was it practised? Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tacitus writes on this in his "Dialogus" (Loeb #35 ISBN
> > > 0-674-99039-0)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On the 'debates' of "notable Romans", The reason that we know
so
> > > much
> > > > > > about Gaius Iulius Caesar is because he told us. He was proud
what
> > he
> > > > did
> > > > > to
> > > > > > the Gauls. Consider that when you judge his actions. He was
> > "bragging"
> > > > > about
> > > > > > what a great general he was. So if it was such a "bad" thing to
> kill
> > a
> > > > > bunch
> > > > > > of Gauls or any other barbarians why would he have mentioned it?
> > > > > > > Caesar had slain the 'boggie man' and brought vast riches to
> Roma.
> > > He
> > > > > was
> > > > > > given unprecedented triumphs. Don't forget when he was
> assassinated
> > he
> > > > was
> > > > > > planning to launch an expedition against the Parthians, who had
> > killed
> > > > > > Crassius and his army.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Remember the 'story' of his weeping at the site of a statue to
> > > > Alexander
> > > > > > and lamenting that by his age Alexander had conquered the
'world'.
> > To
> > > > the
> > > > > > Romans it was important to leave your mark on the world. Thus,
on
> > the
> > > > > > architrave of buildings such as the 'Pantheon' you will see
> > > > > > "M-AGRIPPA-L-F-COS-TERTIVM-FECIT"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bin/gbi.cgi/Pantheon.html/cid_1482174.gbi
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He changed the world! No doubt *HE* was notable, whether or
not
> > you
> > > > > admire
> > > > > > him. I admire him, but not as much as these others; P Vergilius
> > Maro,
> > > P
> > > > > > Ovidius Naso, Sextus Iulius Frontinus, M Vituvius Pollio,
> > > > > > > M Terentius Varro...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Salve
> > > > > > > >Marcus Cornelius Felix sends greeting to the list
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nice to see you back, Pontifex Felix
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valete, Lucius Equitius
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Your Magazine
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 04:53:22 EDT

>>Salve Consul Fabius:
A few of us were in the Taverna the other night, and the subject of your new
wargaming magazine came up. A couple of people had seen it and said it was
very well done :).
Myself and a couple of others wondered about how we could obtain a
subscription.
When you have a free moment, Consul, would you mind posting this
information. >>
Salvete,
Interested people may write "Strategikon" NMPI Publishing, 5715 Menaul Blvd.
NE Albuquerque, NM 87110 Strategikon is published quarterly, subscription is
18.00 yearly in US funds. Include your mailing address.
Or you can e-mail "strategikon@--------" Thanks to everybody who has written
about the magazine raving about it. For me, its a been a long dream of mine
finally coming to fruition.

As for the Macellum, I do plan to sell painted roman figures, armies,
gladiator rules and figures though there but not right now. Being a Consul
of Nova Roma is a full time commitment and I have no time for anything else
in hobby form.
In fact going to the Roman Military Conference in Lancaster was the first fun
thing I did for myself this year.
Valete
Q. Fabius

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	"A. Artorius Arius Sarmaticus" <sarmaticus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:33:12 -0000

AVLVS ARTORIVS ARIVS SARMATICVS NOVOROMANIS S P D

> This Edicta is up for discussion for 7 days, before it takes
effect. If there are any changes, it will be revised and put up for
another 7 days.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix et Gaius Marius Merullus

I wander what is the aim of this Edicta, specifically of the
penalties it implies to re-applying ex-citizens?

Gratias vobis ago.

VALETE IN PACE
-----------------------------------------------------
A Artorius Arius Sarmaticus
Civis et barbarvs Nov� Rom�
Propraetor Sarmati� Provinci�

Libertas inaestimabilis res est

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Subject:	[novaroma] Notabl Forum
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:52:28 +0100

Salve,

In the lower forum citizens of repute and wealth stroll about;
in the middle forum, near the canal, there you find the merely showy set.Above the lake are those brazen, garrulous, spiteful fellows who boldly decry other people without reason and are open to plenty of truthful criticisms themselves. Below the old shops are those who lend and borrow upon usury.Behind the Temple of Castor are those whom you would do ill to trust too quickly.

( Plautus, Curculio, 475-482 )

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 08:10:05 -0500 (CDT)

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, j.mason4 wrote:

> perhaps they might of found a more subtle method,
> like an exploding Monte Cristo.

Isn't that a sandwich?

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/

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Subject:	[novaroma] current Senate agenda
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:38:31 EDT

Salvete Quirites

The Senate is currently deep in discussion on a number of topics put to
it by the Consules. These are:

I: Three citizens have volunteered to fill the job of Rogator that was
abandoned by the elected incumbent when she renounced her citizenship.
Senators have asked for information from each of the candidates, who are
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, Drusus Cornelius Claudius, and Lucia
Cornelia Aurelia.

II: One Titus Curius Dannicus has asked to be made the Praetor of the
Province of Thule, on the assumption that the former Propraetor has left
that office. It appears, however, that rumours of the current praetor's
absence are inaccurate, and that the office is currently filled.

III: Three citizens have been suggested to be recommended to the
Censores for enrollment in the Senate. They are N. Moravia Vado, M.
Marcius Rex, and M. Octavius Germanicus.

IV: An official declaration of senatorial displeasure is being
considered in regard to past conduct by an applicant for citizenship.

V: It has been suggested when a new member is accepted into Nova Roma,
to have
the censor automatically sign them up to the Nova Roma list and a
provincial list, if
there is one for that citizen's province, and then to tell them how they
may unsubscribe if they choose to do so. This, and less intrusive
alternatives, are under discussion.

VI: "Because of repeated on line harassment of former and current Nova
Roma
citizens, the Senior Consul has researched and drafted a Lex against
internet
stalking." This also is under discussion.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti ballistas habebunt.

(When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have ballistas.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:38:32 EDT

Salve Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix Censor

I suggest an additional rule be added to address the ongoing problem of
citizens who have sought and accepted responsibilities as magistrates of
the Res Publica, and then abandon those responsibilities when they
suddenly decide to renounce their citizenship.

So far, just off the top of my head, I can recall the cases of a senator,
a Webmistress, an augur, a curatrix sermonem, and a rogatrix. There may
have been others.

I think such conduct is particularly reprehensible since it constitutes a
very un-Roman abandonment of duty and it leaves us in a lurch. In some
cases it has seriously undermined the operation of our government.

For a former magistrate who abandoned their duty post to ask to be
readmitted to citizenship is, perhaps, a substantially different matter
from the application for readmission from someone who was a private
citizen. The former case is more like desertion from our legions, which
was customarily dealt with by the deserter being clubbed to death by his
former tentmates. That may be a bit severe for the modern world.

I suggest that if such people are readmitted to citizenship, they be
automatically barred from holding office or voting, for a period of two
years from the date of their readmission.

To have this policy in your edict might relieve us of these troublesome
debates about how to deal with such conduct each time one of these people
asks to come back into the fold.

Vale,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:27:49 EDT

In a message dated 8/27/00 7:33:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sarmaticus@-------- writes:

<< I wander what is the aim of this Edicta, specifically of the
penalties it implies to re-applying ex-citizens? >>

Salve,

Actually, there are no penalties if the resignation is withdrawn within
the first nine days, except in specific cases.

I contributed a few ideas towards this edict, and those ideas emerged
out of conversations about a fairly recent spate of resignations. The
central idea of the whole edict can be summed up this way:

"That which is easily thrown away, and just as easily regained, is that which
is held in low esteem."

If we want Nova Roma to mean something, it's citizenship should not be
so easily regained after being tossed away. Else, citizenship means very
little, and if citizenship means little, Nova Roma means less still.

Certainly nine days is enough in which to rethink and withdraw a
resignation. There are no penalties for the average citizen at this point.
Many of us have taken advantage of the nine day period. It is a considerate
way for NR to allow for tempers, falling outs, and other such situations to
"cool down".

Beyond this period, some restrictions must apply if citizenship is to
remain valued. People must not be allowed to simply waltz in and out at
will. Ancient Rome valued it's citizenship as one of its most precious
things, and was reluctant to hand it out to others, even to the point of
excluding Italian allies and fomenting war! Nova Roma is not nearly so
hardheaded. But it must place some value on citizenship.

Gaius Lupinius Festus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Question on Rhetoric WAS: Re: Another not so noble Roman
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 05:05:02 +0100

Author wrote
>
> Isn't that a sandwich?

Yes it goes well with a Caesar side salad. !

~~S~~
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 09:01:56 -0700

Ave,

Wow, this is twice we agree! What are people going to think! ;) Sure, let me
speak with my colleague on this and I will get back to you. This would
initally be placing an automatic Nota essentially. I think your example
about disseration from the Legions is very appropriate in the case of a
Magistrate leaving.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

LSergAust@-------- wrote:

> Salve Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix Censor
>
> I suggest an additional rule be added to address the ongoing problem of
> citizens who have sought and accepted responsibilities as magistrates of
> the Res Publica, and then abandon those responsibilities when they
> suddenly decide to renounce their citizenship.
>
> So far, just off the top of my head, I can recall the cases of a senator,
> a Webmistress, an augur, a curatrix sermonem, and a rogatrix. There may
> have been others.
>
> I think such conduct is particularly reprehensible since it constitutes a
> very un-Roman abandonment of duty and it leaves us in a lurch. In some
> cases it has seriously undermined the operation of our government.
>
> For a former magistrate who abandoned their duty post to ask to be
> readmitted to citizenship is, perhaps, a substantially different matter
> from the application for readmission from someone who was a private
> citizen. The former case is more like desertion from our legions, which
> was customarily dealt with by the deserter being clubbed to death by his
> former tentmates. That may be a bit severe for the modern world.
>
> I suggest that if such people are readmitted to citizenship, they be
> automatically barred from holding office or voting, for a period of two
> years from the date of their readmission.
>
> To have this policy in your edict might relieve us of these troublesome
> debates about how to deal with such conduct each time one of these people
> asks to come back into the fold.
>
> Vale,
>
> Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> Tribunus Plebis
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:44:52 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Censoribus et Quiritibus S.P.D.

I am terribly pleased that the Censors chose to submit this Edictum
in advance for popular consultation. This is becoming a tradition,
and this, I think, will serve Nova Roma in good stead in the future.
I also must commend Censor Merullus on his Latin translation.

When I see that there are penalties connected simply with
resignation (or perhaps I should say with coming back?) that fill me
the sick and fascinated horror one might feel in a mediaeval torture
chamber when the chief tormentor says "Show him the instruments!" I
ask myself, "Why do human beings so tend to go out of their way to
compass suffering for others when there is not even a need for it?"

I fully respect the fact that our censors are hard-working and
unpaid men who have some right to be protected against
"revolving-door-cives" who might wish to go in and out repeatedly in
a fairly short period of time. But I think that the rule should be
directed towards that end and say simply: "No civis having officially
abandoned his citizenship may reapply more than once within twelve
months of the finalisation of that resignation." This one simple rule
would protect the censors against the "revolving-door-civis" without
having a punitive air or limiting the freedoms of individuals to an
unnecessary extent.

I think it would be interesting if the censors would tell us all how
many cases in each category of readmission they have had knowledge of
in practice. It seems to me that punishments and limitations are
being put in place here for very rare cases indeed, cases which might
be allowed to pass without punishments to individuals in these
situations without Nova Roma's taking harm.

Below I make some comments on specific points, marked with "***" for
clarity.
__________________________________
Edictum Censoriale de Civitate Eiuranda

Resignation of citizenship from Nova Roma, as stated in the
constitution of Nova Roma (IIA4), is effected by notification to the
censores, or by declaration before three or more witnesses. Messages
posted on the main Nova Roman e-mail list, and on the Nova Roman
message board, meet the requirement for three witnesses to a
resignation; messages posted to minority lists, regional, belonging
to sodalitates or other such lists or boards, do not meet the
requirement for three witnesses to a resignation.

***I think that someone with a real legal knowledge should be asked
to comment on this. It seems to me that the Constitution implies that
one can announce one's resignation to anyone who might be allowed to
testify to that validly in (a U.S.) court. Even, strangely enough, to
people who had never previously heard of Nova Roma. Is this a defect
in the Constitution? I realise that the censors are trying to repair
this defect if it is one, but under normal interpretations of the
"three-witness" principle are they allowed to limit it? Any U.S.
lawyers among us?

When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation will
not take effect for nine days from the date of submitting the
message, counting inclusively of the date of submitting the message.
If, during this nundina, the citizen desires to withdraw his or her
resignation and remain a citizen, that citizen may freely do so
without penalty, except as defined in the next paragraph. The
citizen can withdraw the resignation by notifying the censores of
his/her desire to withdraw the resignation, by at least the same
channel that he/she used to submit the resignation. For example, if
a citizen submits a message to the e-mail address of the
censores, currently censors@--------, stating that he/she
resigns, then the citizen must e-mail the censores by the same
address to withdraw the resignation.

***A good clarification and codification of present practice.

If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the

***How many times is "multiple"? Three?

censores will have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the
magistrate will have opportunity to present reasoning for his/her
actions, to issue an edictum against the magistrate rendering him/her
ineligible to run for elected office for one year.

***But to retain the present office, presumably. Although we would
indeed prefer that magistrates didn't do that, is is really
worthwhile to put this complex procedure on the books? Has it ever
happened or is it about to happen now?

Should the magistrate believe that he/she has a case for appeal of
such an edictum, he/she can appeal to a Tribunus Plebis, Praetor or
Consul within 30 days of issuance of the edictum as follows-

***If this magistrate IS a Tribune, Praetor or Consul, presumably he
can call his own comitia?

-- if plebeian, either to a Tribunus Plebis to bring the appeal to
the Comitia Plebis Tributa or to a Praetor or Consul to bring the
appeal to the Comitia Populi Tributa

-- if patrician, to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the
Comitia Populi Tributa

Note that the decision to convene these comitia, along with the
schedule for doing so, is the purview of the tribuni, consules and
praetores, and is therefore beyond the scope of this edict

***I think he might surely be willing to call his own!

When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, and the resignation
becomes official after nine days, the ex-citizen is barred from
reapplication and reinstatement for a period of six months, effective
from the date his or her resignation became official.
(For example, if a citizen resigned on May 1 2000, and his
resignation became official on May 9, 2000, he could not be
reinstated until November 9, 2000)

***Now this I think is too draconian. There may be very special
people like Lucius Marius who have so much fundamental love for and
attachment to Nova Roma that they will keep in touch and wait
patiently to be allowed back six months later, but I suspect that
most people outside on the tenth day or the twentieth after a
resignation and wanting to return would be discouraged by this
enormous wait.

I SAY THIS:

===>We want cives who have left and find that life is not so good
outside and without Nova Roma to be brought back into Mater Roma's
embrace as soon as possible and with a welcoming attitude!

They have learnt something and they have corrected their decision.
This is not the time to be disagreeable and rejecting.

My suggestion of a simple rule earlier in this post is more moderate
in its effects and better in the attitude behind it. I think it
deserves consideration as a replacement for this provision of a
six-month lock-out.
___________________
The ex-citizen, in the event that he desires to reacquire
citizenship, must apply in the same fashion as any other person
desirous of citizenship would, with the exception that he/she is
directed to state in his/her application the reasons behind his/her
resignation and decision to reverse the resignation and come back.

***And what if his reason is simply that he lost interest in things
Roman and for some reason reacquired it again a couple of months
later after rading a magazine article? Is that good enough or not? Is
this reason to be used to keep people out if the censor professes not
to like it? What if someone leaves as a moral/political protest and
is coming back because it has succeeded or failed? Are the censors as
elected politicians politically neutral enough to deal with that
fairly?

If someone reapplies, we know the most important thing: that he
wants to come back. What is the real point of this requirement?
_____________
His/her Roman name may be resumed if no other citizen of Nova Roma
has taken it up in his/her absence. No public offices, titles or
century points carry over to the returning citizen, with the
exception of any religious title and corresponding century points
that may be specified by the Collegium Pontificum. Senatorial status
may be resumed at the discretion of both the Senate and of the
censores collegially.

***What does "collegially" mean here? Both censors or *all* Senators
or both censors and a majority of senators in a division of the
Senate?

Gens affiliation in all instances remains at the discretion of
the pater or materfamilias.

If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a
second time, that ex-citizen is barred for two years from
reinstatement. Such a citizen is furthermore barred from running for
any elected public office for two years following re-admission, with
no recourse.

***I do not see any rational reason for this. If the citizen is so
fundamentally interested that he comes back a second time, and then
is so interested that he wants to run for office, which will almost
certainly involve him so much that he will probably not resign again,
what reason could be found for such a provision except
vindictiveness? And I do not think that vindictiveness is prettier in
a state than in an individual. A two-year banishment of a person
eager again to be a citizen will in almost every case guarantee that
we will never see that person again. He will forget about us and/or
feel resentment at such extreme treatment.

What a waste of Nova Roma's human resources!

If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a
second time, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a third time,
that ex-citizen is barred forever from reinstatement. The ex-citizen
has despised his citizenship and shown contempt for the state: he may
never be reinstated thereafter.

***In the course of a whole human lifetime in Nova Roma, I rather
wonder if we can be sure that just three times is an expression of
contempt. It might show instead a deep and idealistic love that is
thwarted from time to time by sordid political realities, so that the
force of the love causes the great force of the disgust from time to
time - and then causes the desire to return.

What is the purpose of so many punitive notions here that simply
stifle a laudable desire to return (when we want to grow), and stifle
a desire to run for office (when we perpetually need candidates)? I
submit that my simple rule: "No civis having officially abandoned his
citizenship may reapply more than once within twelve months of the
finalisation of that resignation" is more humane, practical and
moderate.

I urge the censors to be more flexible and less punitive in the
provisions, and to think more positively of encouraging and welcoming
citizens to come back as soon (and as often :-) as possible. A
citizen who leaves may have made a bad decision, but one who wants to
come back has changed (possibly with some embarassment) and has made
a good decision. We shouild do nothing whatever to discourage that
good decision.

The Censors will note the dates of submitted and withdrawn
resignations in the censorial album civium.

Valete!
========================================================
IN LATIN:

Eiuratio novoromanae civitatis ut ius publicum dicit II A iv
denuntiatione censoribus fit aut declaratione coram tribus pluribusve

Epistulae in publica fora electronica satis postulationi trium
testarum
faciunt at epistulae in alia fora quae ad provincias vel sodalitates
pertinent vel in alia talia illi postulationi non satis faciunt

Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret eiuratio nundinam nec vim nec
effectum non habet Si hac nundina civis recipere eiurationem et
civis
manere desideret hic ita facere potest innocenter nisi caput secundum
ad
rem pertineat Civis recipere eiurationem scribens censoribus de sua
voluntate eam recipere attamen eodem medio quo civis mittens
eiurationem usus est Exempli gratia si civis epistulam electronicae
inscriptioni cursualis censorum quae hodie est censors@--------
dicentem se civitatem eiurare miserit tum civis eadem inscriptione
censoribus mittere epistulam electronicam ad recipiendam eiurationem
debebit

Si magistratus in officio uno anno eiurationes multas mittet et
recipiet
censores causam habebunt post occlusam interrogationem qua
magistratus argumenta dare pro suis actis poterit edictum constituere

contra hunc magistratum facientem eum non eligendum unum annum Si
magistratus se habere causam ad provocationem credet hic provocare ad

Tribunum Plebis aut Praetorem Consulemve triginta diebus vel moxius
ab edicto facto potest ut secundum dicit

Si plebeianus aut ad Tribunum Plebis ut ille magistratus pro plebe ad

suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Plebis Tributis aut ad Praetorem
Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo ad suffragium rem imponat
Comitiis Populis Tributis

Si patricius ad Praetorem Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo
ad
suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis Tributis

Notandum est conficere Comitia quandoque ita facere proprium tribunis

et consulibus et praetoribus et ergo extra huius edicti potestatem

Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret et eiruatio post nundinam vim
effectumque capiat civis prior accipere civitatem sex menses ab
eiuratione effecta non potest

Exempli gratia si cvis civitatem kal mai MMDCCLIII auc eiuravisset et

eiuratio vim effectumque cepisset vii id mai MMDCCLIII is accipere
civitatem ante iv id nov MMDCCLIII non posset

Civis prior volens de novo civitatem accipere petitionem dare ad
civitatem accipendam eodem modo ullius alii civitati volentis debet
cum
exceptione ut illi dicere in illius petitione rationes ad illius
eiurationem
et sententiam eiurationis invertendae et illius recipiendi mandetur
Civis
nomen romanum recipere potest nisi alius civis novoromanus in illius
absentia eum ceperit Nulla officia publica nec titula nec puncta
centuriata revenienti civi non recipientur praeter ea Collegio
Pontificum
designata Ordo senatorius potest recipi Senatu et ambobus censoribus

consensis De gentilitate semper iudicant patres et matresfamiliae

Si civis civitatem eiuraverit et postea acceperit et iterum
eiuraverit talis
civis prior accipere civitatem duos annos non poterit Talis civis et
non
erit eligendus in officium duos annos post civitatem acceptam tertio
sine
provocatione

Si civis post civitatem acceptam tertio civitatem eiuraverit is civis
prior
numquam non poterit civitatem accipere Civis prior civitatem suam
despexerit et contemptum rei publicae monstraverit ac revenire postea

non poterit

Censores dies missarum et receptarum eiurationes civitatis in
censoriali
albo civium notabunt

________________

This Edicta is up for discussion for 7 days, before it takes effect.
If there
are any changes, it will be revised and put up for another 7 days.

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius � � � � � � �
ICQ# 61698049 Firetalk: Apollonius 1588367
AIM: MAFormosanus � � � � � � �MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] In the latest Explorator
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:16:36 -0600

From my newsletter:

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

Gratias vobis ago for the heads up to: Fiona Forsyth, Maurice A.
O'Sullivan, Steve Glass, and Michael Ruggeri (as always, with hopes that I
didn't leave anyone out!).

OLD WORLD NEWS

The Times of London has a nice feature on various archaeological sites
which came to light as a result of the Chunnel construction:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/tim/2000/08/25/timcrtcrt01005.html

The LA Times had a front page story this week on the search for Roman
remains in China:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20000824/t000079414.html

The Telegraph has an interesting feature on what bones reveal about the
Roman diet (watch the wrap):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000140326706927&rtmo=pIsSBQle&atmo=HHHHHHHL&pg=/et/00/8/24/ecfsci324.html

Ananova reports that the excavation of a 5th-century Roman Villa might also
have revealed the remains of an ancient brewery:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_42074.html

The LA Times also has a sort of touristy piece on what's been done to Rome
to spruce it up for millennium celebrations:

http://www.latimes.com/travel/otherdest/stories/20000827/t000080383.html

The Philadelphia News has a story on a recreated ancient beer:

http://www.phillynews.com:80/content/daily_news/2000/08/25/features/FJOE25.htm

ANTIQUITIES THEFT IN THE NEWS

Northern Light brings a report on how looters are taking away many of the
relics of ancient Dacia:

http://library.northernlight.com/FC20000821200000412.html?cb=0&dx=1006&sc=0#doc

ON THE NEWSTANDS

I missed this one ... New Scientist has a nice article on ancient
goldsmithing (related specifically to ancient Lydia):

http://www.newscientist.co.uk/opinion/opinion_225223.html

There's a new online issue of Archaeology out there, with abstracts on
various things and a full text article on Zeugma (and, ahem, there's
mention of Explorator in the 'Web Links to the Past' piece ... woohoo!):

http://www.archaeology.org/0009/toc/toc.html

REVIEWS

The London Review of Books has a review of Danielle Allen, *The World of
Prometheus: The Politics of Punishing in Democratic Athens*:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v22/n16/davi2216.htm

CLASSICISTS' CORNER

The Times of London reports on the renaissance of Latin which is occurring
because of a mouse named Minimus:

http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/08/24/timfeaedu01002.html

The Washington Post has a feature on Cavafy's poetry:

http://washingtonpost.com:80/wp-dyn/articles/A27922-2000Aug26.html

A column on 'Survivor' reveals an interesting perspective on who the
American Socrates is:

http://www.sfgate.com:80/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/hotnews/stories/24/morse.dtl

Last week we mentioned a production of Julius Caesar in Central Park ...
the first review is in:

http://www.bergen.com:80/yourtime/julius24200008243.htm

FOLLOWUPS

Zeugma:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Europe/2000-08/relics240800.shtml

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Subject:	[novaroma] Digest Number 986/Resignation Edictum
From:	"Lucius" <vergil@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:42:59 -0400

Salvete, Quirites

I heartily welcome this! The only thing that could be added is 'what took so
long'?

The statement of Tribunus Plebis Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus,

"I think such conduct is particularly reprehensible since it constitutes a
very un-Roman abandonment of duty and it leaves us in a lurch. In some
cases it has seriously undermined the operation of our government."

states the problem very well. Not only is the abandonment of ones
'tentmates' a form of "desertion", yes a soldier could be stoned to death
for this as well as other breaks in discipline like being found sleeping on
watch, the renunciation of citizenship is one of the most Un-Roman of acts.
Romans considered exile a form of death, Ovid''s Triste Ex Ponto is a
complete book on the subject. As others have pointed out citizenship was so
valued as to be the subject of warfare.

Having stated this, I would like to continue by saying that I can understand
anyone's circumstances changing to a degree that they can no longer meet the
obligations of their office and that the best course of action is to resign
and perhaps offer to their replacement whatever aid they are able.
However, I cannot understand the thought process behind the renunciation of
Citizenship! What is the purpose of this? Nova Roma asks nothing of it's
citizens at this time, only that they have filled out an online form
truthfully. Why quit? What is gained? Nothing is lost by remaining, only to
become as active as one may want at the proper time.

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:23:40 -0700
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Subject: Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum

Edictum Censoriale de Civitate Eiuranda

Resignation of citizenship from Nova Roma, as stated in the constitution of
Nova Roma (IIA4), is effected by notification to the censores, or by
declaration before three or more witnesses. Messages posted on the main
Nova Roman e-mail list, and on the Nova Roman message board, meet the
requirement for three witnesses to a resignation; messages posted to
minority lists, regional, belonging to sodalitates or other such lists or
boards, do not meet the requirement for three witnesses to a resignation.

When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation will not
take effect for nine days from the date of submitting the message, counting
inclusively of the date of submitting the message. If, during this nundina,
the citizen desires to withdraw his or her resignation and remain a citizen,
that citizen may freely do so without penalty, except as defined in the next
paragraph. The citizen can withdraw the resignation by notifying the
censores of his/her desire to withdraw the resignation, by at least the same
channel that he/she used to submit the resignation. For example, if a
citizen submits a message to the e-mail address of the censores, currently
censors@--------, stating that he/she resigns, then the citizen must
e-mail the censores by the same address to withdraw the resignation.

If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the censores will
have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the magistrate will have
opportunity to present reasoning for his/her actions, to issue an edictum
against the magistrate rendering him/her ineligible to run for elected
office for one year. Should the magistrate believe that he/she has a case
for appeal of such an edictum, he/she can appeal to a Tribunus Plebis,
Praetor or Consul within 30 days of issuance of the edictum as follows-

-- if plebeian, either to a Tribunus Plebis to bring the appeal to the
Comitia Plebis Tributa or to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the
Comitia Populi Tributa

-- if patrician, to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the Comitia
Populi Tributa

Note that the decision to convene these comitia, along with the schedule for
doing so, is the purview of the tribuni, consules and praetores, and is
therefore beyond the scope of this edict

When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, and the resignation becomes
official after nine days, the ex-citizen is barred from reapplication and
reinstatement for a period of six months, effective from the date his or her
resignation became official.
(For example, if a citizen resigned on May 1 2000, and his resignation
became official on May 9, 2000, he could not be reinstated until November 9,
2000)

The ex-citizen, in the event that he desires to reacquire citizenship, must
apply in the same fashion as any other person desirous of citizenship would,
with the exception that he/she is directed to state in his/her application
the reasons behind his/her resignation and decision to reverse the
resignation and come back. His/her Roman name may be resumed if no other
citizen of Nova Roma has taken it up in his/her absence. No public offices,
titles or century points carry over to the returning citizen, with the
exception of any religious title and corresponding century points that may
be specified by the Collegium Pontificum. Senatorial status may be resumed
at the discretion of both the Senate and of the censores collegially. Gens
affiliation in all instances remains at the discretion of the pater or
materfamilias.

If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a second time,
that ex-citizen is barred for two years from reinstatement. Such a citizen
is furthermore barred from running for any elected public office for two
years following re-admission, with no recourse.

If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a second time,
is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a third time, that ex-citizen is
barred forever from reinstatement. The ex-citizen has despised his
citizenship and shown contempt for the state: he may never be reinstated
thereafter.

The Censors will note the dates of submitted and withdrawn resignations in
the censorial album civium.

IN LATIN:

Eiuratio novoromanae civitatis ut ius publicum dicit II A iv denuntiatione
censoribus fit aut declaratione coram tribus pluribusve Epistulae in
publica fora electronica satis postulationi trium testarum faciunt at
epistulae in alia fora quae ad provincias vel sodalitates pertinent vel in
alia talia illi postulationi non satis faciunt

Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret eiuratio nundinam nec vim nec
effectum non habet Si hac nundina civis recipere eiurationem et civis
manere desideret hic ita facere potest innocenter nisi caput secundum ad rem
pertineat Civis recipere eiurationem scribens censoribus de sua voluntate
eam recipere attamen eodem medio quo civis mittens eiurationem usus est
Exempli gratia si civis epistulam electronicae inscriptioni cursualis
censorum quae hodie est censors@-------- dicentem se civitatem eiurare
miserit tum civis eadem inscriptione censoribus mittere epistulam
electronicam ad recipiendam eiurationem debebit

Si magistratus in officio uno anno eiurationes multas mittet et recipiet
censores causam habebunt post occlusam interrogationem qua magistratus
argumenta dare pro suis actis poterit edictum constituere contra hunc
magistratum facientem eum non eligendum unum annum Si magistratus se habere
causam ad provocationem credet hic provocare ad Tribunum Plebis aut
Praetorem Consulemve triginta diebus vel moxius ab edicto facto potest ut
secundum dicit

Si plebeianus aut ad Tribunum Plebis ut ille magistratus pro plebe ad
suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Plebis Tributis aut ad Praetorem Consulemve
ut ille magistratus pro populo ad suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis
Tributis

Si patricius ad Praetorem Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo ad
suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis Tributis

Notandum est conficere Comitia quandoque ita facere proprium tribunis et
consulibus et praetoribus et ergo extra huius edicti potestatem

Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret et eiruatio post nundinam vim
effectumque capiat civis prior accipere civitatem sex menses ab eiuratione
effecta non potest

Exempli gratia si cvis civitatem kal mai MMDCCLIII auc eiuravisset et
eiuratio vim effectumque cepisset vii id mai MMDCCLIII is accipere civitatem
ante iv id nov MMDCCLIII non posset

Civis prior volens de novo civitatem accipere petitionem dare ad civitatem
accipendam eodem modo ullius alii civitati volentis debet cum exceptione ut
illi dicere in illius petitione rationes ad illius eiurationem et sententiam
eiurationis invertendae et illius recipiendi mandetur Civis nomen romanum
recipere potest nisi alius civis novoromanus in illius absentia eum ceperit
Nulla officia publica nec titula nec puncta centuriata revenienti civi non
recipientur praeter ea Collegio Pontificum designata Ordo senatorius potest
recipi Senatu et ambobus censoribus consensis De gentilitate semper
iudicant patres et matresfamiliae

Si civis civitatem eiuraverit et postea acceperit et iterum eiuraverit talis
civis prior accipere civitatem duos annos non poterit Talis civis et non
erit eligendus in officium duos annos post civitatem acceptam tertio sine
provocatione

Si civis post civitatem acceptam tertio civitatem eiuraverit is civis prior
numquam non poterit civitatem accipere Civis prior civitatem suam
despexerit et contemptum rei publicae monstraverit ac revenire postea non
poterit

Censores dies missarum et receptarum eiurationes civitatis in censoriali
albo civium notabunt

________________

This Edicta is up for discussion for 7 days, before it takes effect. If
there are any changes, it will be revised and put up for another 7 days.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix et Gaius Marius Merullus
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 25 From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum

I would like to thank Gaius Lupinius Festus, who gave me the initial idea
for this Edictum, I forgot to mention it in the Email!

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 986/Resignation Edictum
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:07:03 -0700

LOL Thanks for your input. It takes alot of time to develop Edicta's this
one took about 3 months! To prepare, go through drafts, come up with
workable compromises to various points! :) From the first draft that was
submitted to me by C. Lupinius Festus to the first draft that I submitted to
my colleague...to the final draft you have here...it took a while! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lucius" <vergil@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 2:42 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Digest Number 986/Resignation Edictum

> Salvete, Quirites
>
> I heartily welcome this! The only thing that could be added is 'what took
so
> long'?
>
> The statement of Tribunus Plebis Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus,
>
> "I think such conduct is particularly reprehensible since it constitutes a
> very un-Roman abandonment of duty and it leaves us in a lurch. In some
> cases it has seriously undermined the operation of our government."
>
> states the problem very well. Not only is the abandonment of ones
> 'tentmates' a form of "desertion", yes a soldier could be stoned to death
> for this as well as other breaks in discipline like being found sleeping
on
> watch, the renunciation of citizenship is one of the most Un-Roman of
acts.
> Romans considered exile a form of death, Ovid''s Triste Ex Ponto is a
> complete book on the subject. As others have pointed out citizenship was
so
> valued as to be the subject of warfare.
>
> Having stated this, I would like to continue by saying that I can
understand
> anyone's circumstances changing to a degree that they can no longer meet
the
> obligations of their office and that the best course of action is to
resign
> and perhaps offer to their replacement whatever aid they are able.
> However, I cannot understand the thought process behind the renunciation
of
> Citizenship! What is the purpose of this? Nova Roma asks nothing of it's
> citizens at this time, only that they have filled out an online form
> truthfully. Why quit? What is gained? Nothing is lost by remaining, only
to
> become as active as one may want at the proper time.
>
> Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:23:40 -0700
> From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
> Subject: Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
>
>
> Edictum Censoriale de Civitate Eiuranda
>
> Resignation of citizenship from Nova Roma, as stated in the constitution
of
> Nova Roma (IIA4), is effected by notification to the censores, or by
> declaration before three or more witnesses. Messages posted on the main
> Nova Roman e-mail list, and on the Nova Roman message board, meet the
> requirement for three witnesses to a resignation; messages posted to
> minority lists, regional, belonging to sodalitates or other such lists or
> boards, do not meet the requirement for three witnesses to a resignation.
>
> When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation will not
> take effect for nine days from the date of submitting the message,
counting
> inclusively of the date of submitting the message. If, during this
nundina,
> the citizen desires to withdraw his or her resignation and remain a
citizen,
> that citizen may freely do so without penalty, except as defined in the
next
> paragraph. The citizen can withdraw the resignation by notifying the
> censores of his/her desire to withdraw the resignation, by at least the
same
> channel that he/she used to submit the resignation. For example, if a
> citizen submits a message to the e-mail address of the censores, currently
> censors@--------, stating that he/she resigns, then the citizen must
> e-mail the censores by the same address to withdraw the resignation.
>
> If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
> resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the censores
will
> have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the magistrate will have
> opportunity to present reasoning for his/her actions, to issue an edictum
> against the magistrate rendering him/her ineligible to run for elected
> office for one year. Should the magistrate believe that he/she has a case
> for appeal of such an edictum, he/she can appeal to a Tribunus Plebis,
> Praetor or Consul within 30 days of issuance of the edictum as follows-
>
> -- if plebeian, either to a Tribunus Plebis to bring the appeal to the
> Comitia Plebis Tributa or to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to
the
> Comitia Populi Tributa
>
> -- if patrician, to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the Comitia
> Populi Tributa
>
> Note that the decision to convene these comitia, along with the schedule
for
> doing so, is the purview of the tribuni, consules and praetores, and is
> therefore beyond the scope of this edict
>
> When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, and the resignation
becomes
> official after nine days, the ex-citizen is barred from reapplication and
> reinstatement for a period of six months, effective from the date his or
her
> resignation became official.
> (For example, if a citizen resigned on May 1 2000, and his resignation
> became official on May 9, 2000, he could not be reinstated until November
9,
> 2000)
>
> The ex-citizen, in the event that he desires to reacquire citizenship,
must
> apply in the same fashion as any other person desirous of citizenship
would,
> with the exception that he/she is directed to state in his/her application
> the reasons behind his/her resignation and decision to reverse the
> resignation and come back. His/her Roman name may be resumed if no other
> citizen of Nova Roma has taken it up in his/her absence. No public
offices,
> titles or century points carry over to the returning citizen, with the
> exception of any religious title and corresponding century points that may
> be specified by the Collegium Pontificum. Senatorial status may be
resumed
> at the discretion of both the Senate and of the censores collegially.
Gens
> affiliation in all instances remains at the discretion of the pater or
> materfamilias.
>
> If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a second
time,
> that ex-citizen is barred for two years from reinstatement. Such a
citizen
> is furthermore barred from running for any elected public office for two
> years following re-admission, with no recourse.
>
> If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a second
time,
> is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a third time, that ex-citizen is
> barred forever from reinstatement. The ex-citizen has despised his
> citizenship and shown contempt for the state: he may never be reinstated
> thereafter.
>
> The Censors will note the dates of submitted and withdrawn resignations in
> the censorial album civium.
>
> IN LATIN:
>
> Eiuratio novoromanae civitatis ut ius publicum dicit II A iv denuntiatione
> censoribus fit aut declaratione coram tribus pluribusve Epistulae in
> publica fora electronica satis postulationi trium testarum faciunt at
> epistulae in alia fora quae ad provincias vel sodalitates pertinent vel in
> alia talia illi postulationi non satis faciunt
>
> Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret eiuratio nundinam nec vim nec
> effectum non habet Si hac nundina civis recipere eiurationem et civis
> manere desideret hic ita facere potest innocenter nisi caput secundum ad
rem
> pertineat Civis recipere eiurationem scribens censoribus de sua voluntate
> eam recipere attamen eodem medio quo civis mittens eiurationem usus est
> Exempli gratia si civis epistulam electronicae inscriptioni cursualis
> censorum quae hodie est censors@-------- dicentem se civitatem eiurare
> miserit tum civis eadem inscriptione censoribus mittere epistulam
> electronicam ad recipiendam eiurationem debebit
>
> Si magistratus in officio uno anno eiurationes multas mittet et recipiet
> censores causam habebunt post occlusam interrogationem qua magistratus
> argumenta dare pro suis actis poterit edictum constituere contra hunc
> magistratum facientem eum non eligendum unum annum Si magistratus se
habere
> causam ad provocationem credet hic provocare ad Tribunum Plebis aut
> Praetorem Consulemve triginta diebus vel moxius ab edicto facto potest ut
> secundum dicit
>
> Si plebeianus aut ad Tribunum Plebis ut ille magistratus pro plebe ad
> suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Plebis Tributis aut ad Praetorem
Consulemve
> ut ille magistratus pro populo ad suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis
> Tributis
>
> Si patricius ad Praetorem Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo ad
> suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis Tributis
>
> Notandum est conficere Comitia quandoque ita facere proprium tribunis et
> consulibus et praetoribus et ergo extra huius edicti potestatem
>
> Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret et eiruatio post nundinam vim
> effectumque capiat civis prior accipere civitatem sex menses ab eiuratione
> effecta non potest
>
> Exempli gratia si cvis civitatem kal mai MMDCCLIII auc eiuravisset et
> eiuratio vim effectumque cepisset vii id mai MMDCCLIII is accipere
civitatem
> ante iv id nov MMDCCLIII non posset
>
> Civis prior volens de novo civitatem accipere petitionem dare ad
civitatem
> accipendam eodem modo ullius alii civitati volentis debet cum exceptione
ut
> illi dicere in illius petitione rationes ad illius eiurationem et
sententiam
> eiurationis invertendae et illius recipiendi mandetur Civis nomen romanum
> recipere potest nisi alius civis novoromanus in illius absentia eum
ceperit
> Nulla officia publica nec titula nec puncta centuriata revenienti civi non
> recipientur praeter ea Collegio Pontificum designata Ordo senatorius
potest
> recipi Senatu et ambobus censoribus consensis De gentilitate semper
> iudicant patres et matresfamiliae
>
> Si civis civitatem eiuraverit et postea acceperit et iterum eiuraverit
talis
> civis prior accipere civitatem duos annos non poterit Talis civis et non
> erit eligendus in officium duos annos post civitatem acceptam tertio sine
> provocatione
>
> Si civis post civitatem acceptam tertio civitatem eiuraverit is civis
prior
> numquam non poterit civitatem accipere Civis prior civitatem suam
> despexerit et contemptum rei publicae monstraverit ac revenire postea non
> poterit
>
> Censores dies missarum et receptarum eiurationes civitatis in censoriali
> albo civium notabunt
>
> ________________
>
> This Edicta is up for discussion for 7 days, before it takes effect. If
> there are any changes, it will be revised and put up for another 7 days.
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix et Gaius Marius Merullus
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Message: 25 From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
> Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
>
> I would like to thank Gaius Lupinius Festus, who gave me the initial idea
> for this Edictum, I forgot to mention it in the Email!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:20:58 -0700

I disagree Formosanus. We have had some citizens leave and come back...then
threaten to leave and come back...I am sure most of us old timer citizens
can name a few of the top of our head. The issue here is the value of
Citizenship and the worth it has.

Many citizens, including myself have resigned once....Our Junior Consul, our
Dictator Flavius Vedius Germanicus, and many many others. We have had
issues that have forced us to leave NR for a period of time and to rethink
our involvement in NR.

That isnt the issue here. It is continual disregard and disrespect that
citizens have for Nova Roma. That is what our edicta answers. Your
rhetoric again is flawed Formosanus and this isnt the first time. There is
no Medieval torture device. And no additional "suffering" is being
committed. As a statement that Lucius Equitius told me once on AIM, "Nova
Roma shouldnt have to legislate honor." (I hope I quoted that right, Lucius
Equitius). And, I agree we shouldnt have too, but we are compelled to do so
based upon the past actions of some of our citizens. This issue is no
different. As our Edict states, "The ex-citizen has despised his
citizenship and shown contempt for the state."

Ignore the fact that we are a micronation and focus on the fact that we are
a nation. Would ANYONE give up their citizenship in the United States or
whatever country you reside in if you disagree with something....or for that
matter ANYTHING? Why should Nova Roma be held to different standards?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 11:44 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum

> M. Apollonius Formosanus Censoribus et Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> I am terribly pleased that the Censors chose to submit this Edictum
> in advance for popular consultation. This is becoming a tradition,
> and this, I think, will serve Nova Roma in good stead in the future.
> I also must commend Censor Merullus on his Latin translation.
>
> When I see that there are penalties connected simply with
> resignation (or perhaps I should say with coming back?) that fill me
> the sick and fascinated horror one might feel in a mediaeval torture
> chamber when the chief tormentor says "Show him the instruments!" I
> ask myself, "Why do human beings so tend to go out of their way to
> compass suffering for others when there is not even a need for it?"
>
> I fully respect the fact that our censors are hard-working and
> unpaid men who have some right to be protected against
> "revolving-door-cives" who might wish to go in and out repeatedly in
> a fairly short period of time. But I think that the rule should be
> directed towards that end and say simply: "No civis having officially
> abandoned his citizenship may reapply more than once within twelve
> months of the finalisation of that resignation." This one simple rule
> would protect the censors against the "revolving-door-civis" without
> having a punitive air or limiting the freedoms of individuals to an
> unnecessary extent.
>
> I think it would be interesting if the censors would tell us all how
> many cases in each category of readmission they have had knowledge of
> in practice. It seems to me that punishments and limitations are
> being put in place here for very rare cases indeed, cases which might
> be allowed to pass without punishments to individuals in these
> situations without Nova Roma's taking harm.
>
> Below I make some comments on specific points, marked with "***" for
> clarity.
> __________________________________
> Edictum Censoriale de Civitate Eiuranda
>
> Resignation of citizenship from Nova Roma, as stated in the
> constitution of Nova Roma (IIA4), is effected by notification to the
> censores, or by declaration before three or more witnesses. Messages
> posted on the main Nova Roman e-mail list, and on the Nova Roman
> message board, meet the requirement for three witnesses to a
> resignation; messages posted to minority lists, regional, belonging
> to sodalitates or other such lists or boards, do not meet the
> requirement for three witnesses to a resignation.
>
> ***I think that someone with a real legal knowledge should be asked
> to comment on this. It seems to me that the Constitution implies that
> one can announce one's resignation to anyone who might be allowed to
> testify to that validly in (a U.S.) court. Even, strangely enough, to
> people who had never previously heard of Nova Roma. Is this a defect
> in the Constitution? I realise that the censors are trying to repair
> this defect if it is one, but under normal interpretations of the
> "three-witness" principle are they allowed to limit it? Any U.S.
> lawyers among us?
>
> When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, the resignation will
> not take effect for nine days from the date of submitting the
> message, counting inclusively of the date of submitting the message.
> If, during this nundina, the citizen desires to withdraw his or her
> resignation and remain a citizen, that citizen may freely do so
> without penalty, except as defined in the next paragraph. The
> citizen can withdraw the resignation by notifying the censores of
> his/her desire to withdraw the resignation, by at least the same
> channel that he/she used to submit the resignation. For example, if
> a citizen submits a message to the e-mail address of the
> censores, currently censors@--------, stating that he/she
> resigns, then the citizen must e-mail the censores by the same
> address to withdraw the resignation.
>
> ***A good clarification and codification of present practice.
>
> If a currently serving magistrate submits and withdraws multiple
> resignations of citizenship within the same calendar year, the
>
> ***How many times is "multiple"? Three?
>
> censores will have grounds, after a closed hearing at which the
> magistrate will have opportunity to present reasoning for his/her
> actions, to issue an edictum against the magistrate rendering him/her
> ineligible to run for elected office for one year.
>
> ***But to retain the present office, presumably. Although we would
> indeed prefer that magistrates didn't do that, is is really
> worthwhile to put this complex procedure on the books? Has it ever
> happened or is it about to happen now?
>
> Should the magistrate believe that he/she has a case for appeal of
> such an edictum, he/she can appeal to a Tribunus Plebis, Praetor or
> Consul within 30 days of issuance of the edictum as follows-
>
> ***If this magistrate IS a Tribune, Praetor or Consul, presumably he
> can call his own comitia?
>
> -- if plebeian, either to a Tribunus Plebis to bring the appeal to
> the Comitia Plebis Tributa or to a Praetor or Consul to bring the
> appeal to the Comitia Populi Tributa
>
> -- if patrician, to a Praetor or Consul to bring the appeal to the
> Comitia Populi Tributa
>
> Note that the decision to convene these comitia, along with the
> schedule for doing so, is the purview of the tribuni, consules and
> praetores, and is therefore beyond the scope of this edict
>
> ***I think he might surely be willing to call his own!
>
> When a citizen resigns citizenship in Nova Roma, and the resignation
> becomes official after nine days, the ex-citizen is barred from
> reapplication and reinstatement for a period of six months, effective
> from the date his or her resignation became official.
> (For example, if a citizen resigned on May 1 2000, and his
> resignation became official on May 9, 2000, he could not be
> reinstated until November 9, 2000)
>
> ***Now this I think is too draconian. There may be very special
> people like Lucius Marius who have so much fundamental love for and
> attachment to Nova Roma that they will keep in touch and wait
> patiently to be allowed back six months later, but I suspect that
> most people outside on the tenth day or the twentieth after a
> resignation and wanting to return would be discouraged by this
> enormous wait.
>
> I SAY THIS:
>
> ===>We want cives who have left and find that life is not so good
> outside and without Nova Roma to be brought back into Mater Roma's
> embrace as soon as possible and with a welcoming attitude!
>
> They have learnt something and they have corrected their decision.
> This is not the time to be disagreeable and rejecting.
>
> My suggestion of a simple rule earlier in this post is more moderate
> in its effects and better in the attitude behind it. I think it
> deserves consideration as a replacement for this provision of a
> six-month lock-out.
> ___________________
> The ex-citizen, in the event that he desires to reacquire
> citizenship, must apply in the same fashion as any other person
> desirous of citizenship would, with the exception that he/she is
> directed to state in his/her application the reasons behind his/her
> resignation and decision to reverse the resignation and come back.
>
> ***And what if his reason is simply that he lost interest in things
> Roman and for some reason reacquired it again a couple of months
> later after rading a magazine article? Is that good enough or not? Is
> this reason to be used to keep people out if the censor professes not
> to like it? What if someone leaves as a moral/political protest and
> is coming back because it has succeeded or failed? Are the censors as
> elected politicians politically neutral enough to deal with that
> fairly?
>
> If someone reapplies, we know the most important thing: that he
> wants to come back. What is the real point of this requirement?
> _____________
> His/her Roman name may be resumed if no other citizen of Nova Roma
> has taken it up in his/her absence. No public offices, titles or
> century points carry over to the returning citizen, with the
> exception of any religious title and corresponding century points
> that may be specified by the Collegium Pontificum. Senatorial status
> may be resumed at the discretion of both the Senate and of the
> censores collegially.
>
> ***What does "collegially" mean here? Both censors or *all* Senators
> or both censors and a majority of senators in a division of the
> Senate?
>
> Gens affiliation in all instances remains at the discretion of
> the pater or materfamilias.
>
> If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a
> second time, that ex-citizen is barred for two years from
> reinstatement. Such a citizen is furthermore barred from running for
> any elected public office for two years following re-admission, with
> no recourse.
>
> ***I do not see any rational reason for this. If the citizen is so
> fundamentally interested that he comes back a second time, and then
> is so interested that he wants to run for office, which will almost
> certainly involve him so much that he will probably not resign again,
> what reason could be found for such a provision except
> vindictiveness? And I do not think that vindictiveness is prettier in
> a state than in an individual. A two-year banishment of a person
> eager again to be a citizen will in almost every case guarantee that
> we will never see that person again. He will forget about us and/or
> feel resentment at such extreme treatment.
>
> What a waste of Nova Roma's human resources!
>
> If a citizen resigns, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a
> second time, is subsequently reinstated, and resigns a third time,
> that ex-citizen is barred forever from reinstatement. The ex-citizen
> has despised his citizenship and shown contempt for the state: he may
> never be reinstated thereafter.
>
> ***In the course of a whole human lifetime in Nova Roma, I rather
> wonder if we can be sure that just three times is an expression of
> contempt. It might show instead a deep and idealistic love that is
> thwarted from time to time by sordid political realities, so that the
> force of the love causes the great force of the disgust from time to
> time - and then causes the desire to return.
>
> What is the purpose of so many punitive notions here that simply
> stifle a laudable desire to return (when we want to grow), and stifle
> a desire to run for office (when we perpetually need candidates)? I
> submit that my simple rule: "No civis having officially abandoned his
> citizenship may reapply more than once within twelve months of the
> finalisation of that resignation" is more humane, practical and
> moderate.
>
> I urge the censors to be more flexible and less punitive in the
> provisions, and to think more positively of encouraging and welcoming
> citizens to come back as soon (and as often :-) as possible. A
> citizen who leaves may have made a bad decision, but one who wants to
> come back has changed (possibly with some embarassment) and has made
> a good decision. We shouild do nothing whatever to discourage that
> good decision.
>
> The Censors will note the dates of submitted and withdrawn
> resignations in the censorial album civium.
>
> Valete!
> ========================================================
> IN LATIN:
>
> Eiuratio novoromanae civitatis ut ius publicum dicit II A iv
> denuntiatione censoribus fit aut declaratione coram tribus pluribusve
>
> Epistulae in publica fora electronica satis postulationi trium
> testarum
> faciunt at epistulae in alia fora quae ad provincias vel sodalitates
> pertinent vel in alia talia illi postulationi non satis faciunt
>
> Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret eiuratio nundinam nec vim nec
> effectum non habet Si hac nundina civis recipere eiurationem et
> civis
> manere desideret hic ita facere potest innocenter nisi caput secundum
> ad
> rem pertineat Civis recipere eiurationem scribens censoribus de sua
> voluntate eam recipere attamen eodem medio quo civis mittens
> eiurationem usus est Exempli gratia si civis epistulam electronicae
> inscriptioni cursualis censorum quae hodie est censors@--------
> dicentem se civitatem eiurare miserit tum civis eadem inscriptione
> censoribus mittere epistulam electronicam ad recipiendam eiurationem
> debebit
>
> Si magistratus in officio uno anno eiurationes multas mittet et
> recipiet
> censores causam habebunt post occlusam interrogationem qua
> magistratus argumenta dare pro suis actis poterit edictum constituere
>
> contra hunc magistratum facientem eum non eligendum unum annum Si
> magistratus se habere causam ad provocationem credet hic provocare ad
>
> Tribunum Plebis aut Praetorem Consulemve triginta diebus vel moxius
> ab edicto facto potest ut secundum dicit
>
> Si plebeianus aut ad Tribunum Plebis ut ille magistratus pro plebe ad
>
> suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Plebis Tributis aut ad Praetorem
> Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo ad suffragium rem imponat
> Comitiis Populis Tributis
>
> Si patricius ad Praetorem Consulemve ut ille magistratus pro populo
> ad
> suffragium rem imponat Comitiis Populis Tributis
>
> Notandum est conficere Comitia quandoque ita facere proprium tribunis
>
> et consulibus et praetoribus et ergo extra huius edicti potestatem
>
> Cum civis civitatem novoromanam eiuret et eiruatio post nundinam vim
> effectumque capiat civis prior accipere civitatem sex menses ab
> eiuratione effecta non potest
>
> Exempli gratia si cvis civitatem kal mai MMDCCLIII auc eiuravisset et
>
> eiuratio vim effectumque cepisset vii id mai MMDCCLIII is accipere
> civitatem ante iv id nov MMDCCLIII non posset
>
> Civis prior volens de novo civitatem accipere petitionem dare ad
> civitatem accipendam eodem modo ullius alii civitati volentis debet
> cum
> exceptione ut illi dicere in illius petitione rationes ad illius
> eiurationem
> et sententiam eiurationis invertendae et illius recipiendi mandetur
> Civis
> nomen romanum recipere potest nisi alius civis novoromanus in illius
> absentia eum ceperit Nulla officia publica nec titula nec puncta
> centuriata revenienti civi non recipientur praeter ea Collegio
> Pontificum
> designata Ordo senatorius potest recipi Senatu et ambobus censoribus
>
> consensis De gentilitate semper iudicant patres et matresfamiliae
>
> Si civis civitatem eiuraverit et postea acceperit et iterum
> eiuraverit talis
> civis prior accipere civitatem duos annos non poterit Talis civis et
> non
> erit eligendus in officium duos annos post civitatem acceptam tertio
> sine
> provocatione
>
> Si civis post civitatem acceptam tertio civitatem eiuraverit is civis
> prior
> numquam non poterit civitatem accipere Civis prior civitatem suam
> despexerit et contemptum rei publicae monstraverit ac revenire postea
>
> non poterit
>
> Censores dies missarum et receptarum eiurationes civitatis in
> censoriali
> albo civium notabunt
>
> ________________
>
> This Edicta is up for discussion for 7 days, before it takes effect.
> If there
> are any changes, it will be revised and put up for another 7 days.
>
>
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
> Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
> ICQ# 61698049 Firetalk: Apollonius 1588367
> AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
> ________________________________________
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> (Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
> ________________________________________
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Citizenship and resignations
From:	"Gaius Metellus Valentinus" <websurfer07@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:39:06 -0000

Salvete omnes,

I've been following the postings on the editctum and found them
very interesting.
I understand the need for consequences for a given action (i.e.
the resignation) but someone brought up the question as to the "why"
someone would resign their citizenship.
I think that is beyond the scope of an edictum. I think the
edictum should deal with the consequences of the action, not
necessarily the "whys". People can have a plethora of reasons for
resigning citizenship, anything from personal to practical. I think
regardless, those reasons should be respected. Should that person
decided to return, then the consuls and the senate are entitled to
deal with he/she as they see fit.
Personally I wouldn't assume that a resgnation is synonymous
with a resgnation of any interest in Roma or roman culture, as was
implied by a comment. My personal interest in Roma existed well
before I became familiar with Nova Roma, and it will probably still
be there should I , for any reason, leave the folds of Nova Roma.
It is good to see that this issue is being dealt with, but we
should always keep in mind that a law should be fair minded and not
motivated by vindictiveness or retaliation.
As a fairly recent citizen of Nova Roma, I can speak for myself
and say that, while I found a good deal of enthusiasm in taking part
in discussions, I can't say I truly understand the workings of govt.
and law. Just as a suggestion, as new citizens are admitted, it
would help if, instead of automatically signing them up to an e-group
list, one could send them an informative e-mail explaining the voting
process, WHERE to sign up to appropriate lists (as a suggestion) and
who to contact with any questions, problems or concerns. I have read
a few posts of new citizens who seemed as lost as myself when I was
first admitted.
I think this would encourage participation, and perhaps curb some
loss of citizens.
Just an observation.

-G. Metellus Valentinus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizenship and resignations
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:26:15 -0600

Salvete Omnes:

Gaius Metellus Valentinus wrote:

As a fairly recent citizen of Nova Roma, I can speak for myself
and say that, while I found a good deal of enthusiasm in taking part
in discussions, I can't say I truly understand the workings of govt.
and law. Just as a suggestion, as new citizens are admitted, it
would help if, instead of automatically signing them up to an e-group
list, one could send them an informative e-mail explaining the voting
process, WHERE to sign up to appropriate lists (as a suggestion) and
who to contact with any questions, problems or concerns. I have read
a few posts of new citizens who seemed as lost as myself when I was
first admitted.
I think this would encourage participation, and perhaps curb some
loss of citizens.
Just an observation.

I think this is an excellent suggestion. Between the Censors and the
Sodalitas Egressus, I would support having this suggestion be the one
implemented.

Valete,
L Cornelia Aurelia

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censorial Edict - Resignation Edictum
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:40:19 -0500

Avete,

Venii hic:

"L. Cornelius Sulla" wrote:
>
> (znip)
>
> Ignore the fact that we are a micronation and focus on the fact that we are
> a nation. Would ANYONE give up their citizenship in the United States or
> whatever country you reside in if you disagree with something....or for that
> matter ANYTHING? Why should Nova Roma be held to different standards?
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
>

An example of a Macro-National penalty: I sell firearms as part of my duties at the store in which I work. On the
transaction record, which every purchaser has to fill out, is a question as to whether or not one has ever given up
one's US Citizenship. Yes is the wrong answer, and disables one from lawfully owning firearms in the US.

In officium - Venator

===========================================
In Frith under Troth, may the Gods see you!
- Piparskegg UllRson, a Tribalist Asatruar and traveler to many Heathen & Pagan places.
My homestead: http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
The Nova Roma Brewing and Cooking group: http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

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Subject:	[novaroma] back in the loop
From:	wicachu@--------
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 19:46:18 EDT

Whew... leave for a few days and -watch- it pile up. Greetings and
salutations to all. I just thought I would drop a note to let you all know
I havent dropped off the face of the earth completely just yet.

I.S. Britaega

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] back in the loop
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:53:26 -0700

Ave,

Welcome back!

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: <wicachu@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 4:46 PM
Subject: [novaroma] back in the loop

> Whew... leave for a few days and -watch- it pile up. Greetings and
> salutations to all. I just thought I would drop a note to let you all
know
> I havent dropped off the face of the earth completely just yet.
>
> I.S. Britaega
>
>
>
>
>

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