Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Divine Salamis
From:	"Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:13:19 -0000

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It seems my settings have been a bit off, so my apologies to Fabius
if
he received this before, and not the entire list, as was my intent.

I recall from some reading, possibly from some ghastly popular
history
book, that the Spartans did give Earth and Water to the ambassadors
of
the Great King. They stoned them then threw them down a well.
Wicked sense of humor, those Spartans. I hope that story is true,
rather than more fictitious appocrypha.

C. Aelius Ericius.
Sepia Senex.

--- In novaroma@--------, sfp55@a... wrote:
> Salvate people of Rome!
>
> Today is important date in Western Civilization. It is the
traditional date
> of the Battle of Salamis (480) off the coast of Attika, Hellas.
>
> On this day a Hellenic fleet of 300 tres (three banked) galleys
(127
of them
> from Athens) crewed by 57,000 men defeated an Iranian fleet of 450
tres,
> manned by 94,500 men. It marks the end of the Persian/Median
advance in
> Hellas, effectively stopping the invasion, since the Shah of Shah,
Xerxes,
> loses heart after the defeat of his fleet and returns to Sardis
that
winter.
> This is the turning point in the history of the Mediterranean
basin.

> Victory at Divine Salamis ensured that Asia and the East's customs
and
> beliefs would not dominate Western history, Hellenic thought, word
and deed
> would flourish. The Agora at Athens would be a place of learning,
not a
> bazaar, the assorted Hellenic scholars would be free to spread
their
> knowledge, not to be cloistered in attendance of the Great Shah.
And most
> important of all it insures that Rome, our ancient ancestor will
continue to
> expand and grow,
> With a Persian victory in Hellas, the Shah's next step would be aid
Carthage
> (Tyre of the Phoenicians was Carthage's mother city and a Persian
ally) in
> conquering Sicily and once that was accomplished, who knows how
Italia would
> have fared. Not well I'm sure. And if Rome, Latium, and Eturia
had
to send
> to the Great Shah, gifts of Earth & Water, and Italia denoted a
satrapy of
> the Persian Empire, what would have Rome become? Our history would
be very
> different.
> So Romans, join me in raising a glass to the shades of Themistokles
of
> Athens, Eurybiadas of Sparta and their gallant command of many
polis.
> Without them, our beloved Roman greatness is but ashes, our
accomplishments
> mere dreams. Themistokles of Athens I salute you!
> Vale!


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal
From:	"Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:18:48 -0000

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As with my message regarding Divine Salamis, my settings may have
sent
a reply I intended for the whole list solely to Festus. There is
also
no copy of the message in my sent file. This is why I consider
computer things an art rather than a science. To try to recondtruct
what I said...

We do not know how the majority of the citizens feel. This can only
be known if there is some sort of a straw ballot. Would Lucius
Cornelius Sulla be willing to put this idea of his on the Nova Roma
Egroups as a poll? If nothing else it might serve to wind up some of
the exchanges. Okay Sulla?

Festus, you may feel free to repost what I wrote before, assuming you
got it, to this list.

Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.

--- In novaroma@--------, Lykaion1@c... wrote:
> For the democractically minded out there...
>
> Why should any "counter-proposal" be seriously considered when the
majority
> already like the currect policy?
>
> Festus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:22:48 -0700


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal
From:	"Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:42:29 -0000

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Salve, Lucius Cornelius Sulla.

No. It is not really, after Festus's assertion today. Why not just
have a poll on the edict now? You can use this as another datum for
future work. And it might stop this round and about exchange that is
really only a few voices out of all the citizens who are subscribers
to this list. How about it?

C. Aelius Ericus.
Augur. Pontifex. Senator. Paterfamilias.

--- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
wrote:
> Ave,
>
> I have stated that I would be willing to put this up on the ballot
as a Lex
> at the end of the year. Considering that was your suggestion last
week
> Ericius, isnt that sufficient?
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> Censor
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Raz-------- " <raz--------@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 5:18 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal
>
>
> >
> > As with my message regarding Divine Salamis, my settings may have
> > sent
> > a reply I intended for the whole list solely to Festus. There is
> > also
> > no copy of the message in my sent file. This is why I consider
> > computer things an art rather than a science. To try to
recondtruct
> > what I said...
> >
> > We do not know how the majority of the citizens feel. This can
only
> > be known if there is some sort of a straw ballot. Would Lucius
> > Cornelius Sulla be willing to put this idea of his on the Nova
Roma
> > Egroups as a poll? If nothing else it might serve to wind up
some
of
> > the exchanges. Okay Sulla?
> >
> > Festus, you may feel free to repost what I wrote before, assuming
you
> > got it, to this list.
> >
> > Valete.
> > C. Aelius Ericius.
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Lykaion1@c... wrote:
> > > For the democractically minded out there...
> > >
> > > Why should any "counter-proposal" be seriously considered when
the
> > majority
> > > already like the currect policy?
> > >
> > > Festus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 30 Aug 2000 19:45:34 -0700

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Wow I am impressed at how much respect you are showing to Caius Lupinius
Festus! :) I am very pleased at that. What I will do is discuss this with
my colleague and then I will make a response. Since together him and I
drafted this Edictum I will not make a decision without his input.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Razenna " <razenna@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 7:42 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal

>
> Salve, Lucius Cornelius Sulla.
>
> No. It is not really, after Festus's assertion today. Why not just
> have a poll on the edict now? You can use this as another datum for
> future work. And it might stop this round and about exchange that is
> really only a few voices out of all the citizens who are subscribers
> to this list. How about it?
>
> C. Aelius Ericus.
> Augur. Pontifex. Senator. Paterfamilias.
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@e...>
> wrote:
> > Ave,
> >
> > I have stated that I would be willing to put this up on the ballot
> as a Lex
> > at the end of the year. Considering that was your suggestion last
> week
> > Ericius, isnt that sufficient?
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Raz-------- " <raz--------@-------->
> > To: <novaroma@-------->
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 5:18 PM
> > Subject: [novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal
> >
> >
> > >
> > > As with my message regarding Divine Salamis, my settings may have
> > > sent
> > > a reply I intended for the whole list solely to Festus. There is
> > > also
> > > no copy of the message in my sent file. This is why I consider
> > > computer things an art rather than a science. To try to
> recondtruct
> > > what I said...
> > >
> > > We do not know how the majority of the citizens feel. This can
> only
> > > be known if there is some sort of a straw ballot. Would Lucius
> > > Cornelius Sulla be willing to put this idea of his on the Nova
> Roma
> > > Egroups as a poll? If nothing else it might serve to wind up
> some
> of
> > > the exchanges. Okay Sulla?
> > >
> > > Festus, you may feel free to repost what I wrote before, assuming
> you
> > > got it, to this list.
> > >
> > > Valete.
> > > C. Aelius Ericius.
> > >
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, Lykaion1@c... wrote:
> > > > For the democractically minded out there...
> > > >
> > > > Why should any "counter-proposal" be seriously considered when
> the
> > > majority
> > > > already like the currect policy?
> > > >
> > > > Festus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Yahoo messenger skin
From:	"Gaius Metellus Valentinus" <websurfer07@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 05:00:35 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Digest No 994 Divine Salamis
From:	"Lucius" <vergil@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:23:51 -0400

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Salvete,

I have not heard of the Spartans doing any such thing. I honestly don't
know enough about the Greeks to say that they would not do such a thing but
my feelings are that the Greeks would not harm ambassadors or 'heralds'.
Instead it was one of the Spartan 'kings' who "went over" to the Persians.
Some of the reasons that Alexander wanted to invade "Asia" was to get
revenge for the sack of Athens and it's temples and stop the influence of
the Persians in the 'politics' of Hellas.

For anyone interested in the pivotal period of history I highly recommend
this novel.
You will not want to put it down! I only wish there were books on the Romans
like this one.

Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae by Steven
Pressfield
ISBN: 0553580531 Publisher: Bantam Books, Incorporated Pub. Date: August
1999

Valete, L Equitius
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:13:19 -0000
From: "Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Subject: Re: Divine Salamis

It seems my settings have been a bit off, so my apologies to Fabius
if he received this before, and not the entire list, as was my intent.

I recall from some reading, possibly from some ghastly popular
history book, that the Spartans did give Earth and Water to the ambassadors
of the Great King. They stoned them then threw them down a well.
Wicked sense of humor, those Spartans. I hope that story is true,
rather than more fictitious appocrypha.

C. Aelius Ericius.
Sepia Senex.

--- In novaroma@--------, sfp55@a... wrote:
> Salvate people of Rome!
>
> Today is important date in Western Civilization. It is the traditional
date
> of the Battle of Salamis (480) off the coast of Attika, Hellas.
>
> On this day a Hellenic fleet of 300 tres (three banked) galleys(127 of
them
> from Athens) crewed by 57,000 men defeated an Iranian fleet of 450 tres,
> manned by 94,500 men. It marks the end of the Persian/Median advance in
> Hellas, effectively stopping the invasion, since the Shah of Shah, Xerxes,
> loses heart after the defeat of his fleet and returns to Sardinis that
winter.
> This is the turning point in the history of the Mediterranean basin.

> Victory at Divine Salamis ensured that Asia and the East's customs and
> beliefs would not dominate Western history, Hellenic thought, word and
deed
> would flourish. The Agora at Athens would be a place of learning, not a
> bazaar, the assorted Hellenic scholars would be free to spread their
> knowledge, not to be cloistered in attendance of the Great Shah. And most
> important of all it insures that Rome, our ancient ancestor will continue
to
> expand and grow,
> With a Persian victory in Hellas, the Shah's next step would be aid
Carthage
> (Tyre of the Phoenicians was Carthage's mother city and a Persian ally) in
> conquering Sicily and once that was accomplished, who knows how Italia
would
> have fared. Not well I'm sure. And if Rome, Latium, and Eturia had to
send
> to the Great Shah, gifts of Earth & Water, and Italia denoted a satrapy of
> the Persian Empire, what would have Rome become? Our history would be
very
> different.
> So Romans, join me in raising a glass to the shades of Themistokles of
> Athens, Eurybiadas of Sparta and their gallant command of many polis.
> Without them, our beloved Roman greatness is but ashes, our
accomplishments
> mere dreams. Themistokles of Athens I salute you!
> Vale!

________________________________________________________________________


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal
From:	"Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:31:57 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest No 994 Divine Salamis
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 15:39:13 +0100


Subject:	[novaroma] thanks
From:	Krysialtemus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 11:22:56 EDT

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Thanks to everyone who responded to my timidity at being a new citizen! O.K.,
I'll just jump right in with the questions. First, what is the proper
greeting when meeting
someone or addressing a letter? Is it Ave? I do not speak nor read Latin
(yet) so that is one reason I have been staying in my little corner of the
Forum. Some of the e-mails that are written in Latin can be pretty
intimidating to those who are not there yet in this learning/indoctrination
process. Secondly, I don't think that I do have a
pater/materfamilias in Nova Roma. Can anybody help me with this one? And
third,
I am from Pennsylvania, US, so I believe that puts me in the MidAtlantic
provincia.
As per L. Cornelia Aurelia's letter requesting the top 10 books, what a great
idea! I'm
sure everyone has a few they would like to recommend. If any of you are like
me, there aren't enough books about ancient Rome. I will read any that I can
get my hands on.

Thanks again,

Caecilia Drusa Dalmatica


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Citizen images needed for Album Civium
From:	"yquere" <yquere@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:29:32 +0200


Subject:	[novaroma] Hello and gens
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 17:22:53 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] polls
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 17:25:13 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] repost: salutations in Latin
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:44:04 EDT

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>>I believe it was Marcus Apollonius Formosanus who crafted a useful
introduction to the actual Roman way of addressing a letter. I know
it's online somewhere, but I've forgotten where - can someone else
answer this?
<<
REPOST
M. Apollonius Formosanus Civibus Omnibus Novae Romae S.P.D.

In the first lesson we learned how to make an informal
greeting in Latin: just say "Salve" (singular or "Salvete"
(plural) and add the names and titles of the person(s)
addressed in the Vocative Case. We also learned that the
Vocative is the same as the Nominative (the basic form of
our names, etc.) except when a name ends in -US. And we
learned how to make the right Vocative form then.

Those forms are good not only for letters here, but in
the Forum, on the telephone, and in any face-to-face
situation. However, the ancient Romans preferred another
form for letters, the form which I used at the top of this
lesson.

The basic form of this is to state who is writing and to
whom the letter is going all in one sentence at the
beginning, which also serves as the salutation. A most
practical, compact and elegant affair. The form is this:

SENDER (Nominative) TO RECIPIENT (Dative) SAYS GREETINGS.

For example, "Apollonius Cornelio Sullae S.P.D."

Let us analyse this. "Apollonius" is Nominative, the
form we always start with in thinking of cases. No problem
if you know your name! The next idea is "TO". We do not say
"to", which in Latin would be "ad". Rather, we use the
Dative Case (Casus Dativus).
_______________________

Now, English grammar is not taught very well these days
in many schools of Britain and America, so if your education
has luckily made the following ridiculously obvious, please
forgive me for boring you, but I am afraid that some of you
out there may need this little discussion of what cases
really are. Others please bear with me.

English has three cases: Subjective ( = Nominative in
Latin), Possessive ( = Genitive in Latin), and Objective ( =
Accusative and Dative in Latin) We can see this very easily
in the case of the pronoun "he". "He" is used for the
subject of a sentence. ("He is intelligent.") It is
therefore Subjective/Nominative Case. "His" is
Possessive/Genitive Case. ("His book"). "Him" is
Objective/Accusative or Dative. ("I see him." "I gave him
the book.")

But what is the real difference between Accusative and
Dative case? It is the difference in English between a
Direct Object and an Indirect Object. In "I see him" the
word "him" is the Direct Object of "see". In the sentence "I
gave him the book" the word "him" is the Indirect Object and
the words "the book" are the Direct Object.

We can also say, "I gave the book *to* him." Usually the
Dative Case expresses the same idea as "to" or "for". ("I
bought YOU a gift." = "I bought a gift *for* you.) In
English there is only one form for both kinds of objects. In
Latin there are two different forms.

Also, in English all nouns have the same form in the
Subjective and Objective Cases. ("Mark is intelligent." "I
see Mark." "I gave Mark the book.") Only the Possessive has
a special ending: "This is *Mark'S* book." In Latin there
are four endings for these: Nominative ("MarcUS est
intelligens."). Accusative ("Video MarcUM."), Dative ("Dedi
MarcO librum."), and Genitive ("Hic est liber MarcI").

You don't have to memorise these endings; the above
discussion is just to make clear the general concept of
"case" in English and Latin.
________________________

Now that we have hopefully clarified what the Dative
Case is, let us go back to its use in the Traditional
Salutation. There we use the Dative Case to show the person
TO whom the letter is going or FOR whom it is written.

So, how can we form the Dative when we need it? Most
people's names end in one of two ways.

If it ends in -US, the Dative ending is -O.
If it ends in -A, the Dative ending is -AE. (Pronounced like
"eye")

So: Marcus Apollonius Cornelio Sullae S.P.D.

CorneliUS has become CorneliO.
SullA has become SullAE.
("Sulla" is masculine, but the ending would in the same way
be IuliAE if the name were a feminine Iulia.)

Titles are just a tad trickier, so here is a little list of
Dative titles:

Censor > Censori (to the Censor)
Consul > Consuli (to the Consul)
Praetor > Praetori (to the Praetor)
Aedilis > Aedili (to the Aedile)
Senator > Senatori (to the Senator)
Pontifex > Pontifici (to the Pontifex) [And "Pontifici
Maximo"]
Flamen > Flamini ( to the Flamen)
Sacerdos > Sacerdoti (to the Sacerdos)

As you see, although there are some internal changes, they
all end in -I.

("Tribunus", however, is "Tribuno" in the Dative.)

But sometimes we want to write to people in the plural, and
then we need the Dative *Plural* endings. These are even
easier; normally there are only two:

Both -US and -A change to -IS in the Dative Plural.
And all the others you will normally need change to (or add)
-IBUS.

So:
Novoromanus > Novoramanis (to the Nova Romans)
Tribunus > Tribunis (to the Tribunes)

Quiritis > Quiritibus (to the Quirites)
civis > civibus (to the Citizens)
Censor > Censoribus (to the Censors)
Consul > Consulibus (to the Consuls)
Praetor > Praetoribus (to the Praetors)
Senator > Senatoribus (to the Senators) [To the Senate:
"Senatui"]
Pontifex > Pontificibus (to the Pontifices)

Only one more element is necessary, the salutation
proper at the end. "S.P.D." is an abbreviation for "Salutem
Plurimam Dicit." That is, "Salutation Much Says." So,
"Marcus Apollonius Formosanus Censori Lucio Cornelio Sullae
Felici Salutem Plurimam Dicit" means "Marcus Apollonius
Formosanus to Censor Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix says many
salutations." (In English the plural sounds more natural,
but in Latin "Salutem Plurimam" is singular and sounds quite
normal.)

On Nova Roma lists I am often impressed by the
difficulty of remembering whose name or e-mail address goes
with which Nova Roman name. It is sometimes necessary to
scroll to the bottom of the letter first to be sure where
someone is coming from. If more of us used the traditional
Roman salutation, one would know immediately at the
beginning of a message who the writer was with no trials of
memory. Thus, this form is eminently practical.

Naturally we do not always have to use the impressive
full-length affairs like the one above, full of gravitas. In
many cases, as among the ancient Romans, a simple
"Apollonius Sullae suo S.P.D." would suffice. [The "suo" -
masculine - or "suae" - feminine - meaning "his" or "her"
(i.e. of the writer) can be used to show close friendship
and affectionate feeling.]

If anyone has questions, of course you will write me:

"<YOUR NAME> M. Apollonio Formosano S.P.D."

(Thanks to our eminent Censor for the use of his highly
suitable name as an example.) >>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Formosanus' counterproposal
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:03:14 -0700


Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	31 Aug 2000 18:06:09 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	31 Aug 2000 18:07:08 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Poll results for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	31 Aug 2000 18:07:23 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Poll results for novaroma
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:28:11 US/Central


Subject:	[novaroma] The abstainers have it
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 07:23:35 +0100


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Poll results for novaroma
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:30:48 -0700


Subject:	[novaroma] New poll for novaroma
From:	novaroma@--------
Date:	31 Aug 2000 18:32:37 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Poll results for novaroma
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:34:46 -0700


Subject:	[novaroma] Gens promotion
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:41:02 -0700


Subject:	[novaroma] Gens Promotion
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 08:45:31 -0700


Subject:	[novaroma] SPPLLLAAASSSHH WEY HEY
From:	"j.mason4" <j.mason4@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:26:44 +0100


Subject:	[novaroma] Gens Promotions
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 20:45:36 GMT


Subject:	[novaroma] My Introduction as new Citizen of Nowa Roma
From:	"Herr Sch�fer" <schaefer.paxromana@-------->
Date:	Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:57:03 +0200 (CEST)