Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	StarVVreck@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:40:24 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:45:00 EDT


Subject:	[Fwd: [novaroma] American Nova Romans]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:21:00 -0700


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	StarVVreck@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:55:00 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	StarVVreck@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:55:56 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	StarVVreck@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 23:03:16 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 23:36:55 EDT


Subject:	[novaroma] Domus Ulleria, et Lacus Magni
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Sat, 02 Sep 2000 23:09:21 -0500


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	JustiniaCassia@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:04:30 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 02:11:51 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 2 Sep 2000 23:28:12 -0700 (PDT)


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:57:28 -0600

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Salve, Justina:

I second the spirit of your comments. I've worked too hard establishing myself
as an independent person to willingly revert to a more passive role in any
country. I would fight the Fascist party or any political system that tried to
take my legal status from me. However, let me just remind everyone, that the
presence of a democratic society does NOT automatically equate with embracing
feminism or women's full participatory citizenship.

To keep this somewhat relevant to the topic of Rome, certainly there were
democratic governments in ancient Greece, and Greek women under democratic
societies had no recourse to political power, establishing their own income or
welfare, and lived cloistered lives under their fathers and husbands. Women in
Rome had relatively MORE propery rights, but had no more political rights, than
their Greek sisters -- and hence HAD NO CITIZENSHIP. Women in ancient
societies were defined by the men they were born to, married to, and gave birth
to.

This state of affairs continued in every country in the world until the 19th
century, when women slowly started gaining the right to vote. In modern
democracies, the existence of the democracy did not automatically lead to a
willing embrace of the full citizenship of women. Democracies may have led the
pack in granting the vote, and hence full citizenship, to women.......but they
weren't that far ahead. 100 years ago, I as a woman did not have the political
freedoms I have today, regardless of where I would have been born.

For example, American women started a concentrated fight for the vote in 1848,
but didn't secure the right to vote for 72 years, when the 19th amendment was
passed in 1920. Note that Dolly Madison and several women close to the
founding fathers urged their husbands to grant citizenship to women, a please
those august fathers answered with disdain. At the state level the vote was
granted to women as early as 1869 in Wyoming, concurrent with WY becoming a
state!

The mere fact that our grandmothers were born into a world that thought it was
peculiar for women to want the citizenship that only comes with the vote should
sober us all and make us realize what a fragile gift citizenship is.

Here's a quick list of some major countries (democratic and non-democratic) and
when women get full voting rights:

1893: New Zealand is the first nation to grant women full voting rights.
1902: Australia
1918: Canada and Poland
1919: Germany and Sweden
1920: United States
1922: Ireland
1928: Britain
1944: France
1945: Italy and Japan
1947: China
1949: India and Syria
1952: Greece
1953: Mexico
1972: Switzerland

As of the year 2000, only Kuwait extends the vote to men but not women. There
are also countries in the world where neither men nor women have the right to
vote.

L Cornelia Aurelia

JustiniaCassia@-------- wrote:

>
> Would you really want me to drop out of my PhD program in order to pursue a
> more feminine profession? Do you really think I'd have a better life if I
> swept my talents under the rug in order to live a traditional lifestyle?
> Does my opinion of how I should live my own life count? For that is the
> basis of feminism. I may not agree with or promote excessive feminist
> extremes, but I will not easily give up the rights that basic feminism has
> brought me. I'll take up arms against a fascist regime myself to stop that!
>
> Iustinia Cassia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 03:17:53 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 03:18:46 EDT


Subject:	[novaroma] Politics and Utopia
From:	websurfer07@--------
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 08:01:35 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	RexMarcius@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 04:13:06 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:27:24 +0200


Subject:	[novaroma] The Curatrix Sermonem speaks
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:41:51 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] In re feminism
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:42:56 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Interesting Roman Web Sites
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 07:01:45 -0700 (PDT)

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Salvete!

I found some interesting Roman websites today, and am
sending them so others can enjoy them as well.

L A Dalmaticus

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Villa Rustica � a Roman villa in Baden
http://www.villa-rustica.de/indexe.html

Tacticus on the Germans
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

Romans in SW Germany
http://home.t-online.de/home/Bernd.Hummel/histeng.htm

The Roman Army
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/armybibl.html

Roman Army Page
http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/legio.html

Still more Roman Army
http://www.dalton.org/groups/Rome/RMil.html

Map of Rome at the Height of the Empire
http://www.ucalgary.ca/HIST/tutor/firsteuro/imgs/map15.html

Xanten
http://www.bauwesen.uni-dortmund.de/forschung/xanten/english/xanten_stadtplan.html

Hermann vs Varus, 9 AD
http://www.standin.se/fifteen05a.htm

Remnants of the Roman Empire
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch26.htm

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"In a decent, God-fearing country, I'd be allowed to beat the two of you to death" -- Gen. Dick Panzer (Rip Torn), in "Canadian Bacon"

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 10:18:13 -0400


Subject:	[novaroma] roman antiquities bargains
From:	heritage@--------
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 14:18:44 -0000

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Good morning members,

take few minutes from your time in this wonderful Sunday to visit our
online auctions:

http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/ancientheritage

Thanks!
Ves.


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Political Extremism in NR
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:04:24 +0100

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Quiritibus salutem

I applaud Consul Q. Fabius' suggestion that posts such as the recent one
from Festus on the Fascist Party of America, and the thread of protests that
followed, being all on alien macronational politics, are not relevant to the
concerns of this respublica, and that something be done to discourage it.

It is not the first time this forum has been used inappropriately as a
soap-box for such matters: last year much ill-feeling was expended to no
practical use whatsoever over the war in Kossovo. As Senator Ericius said at
the time, where will it all end if citizens all sound off about their views
on blood sports, same-sex marriages, the price of cheese, whatever, ad
nauseam?

If Festus wants to start a Fascist Party in NR, that would be a different
matter, and OK with me; if Iulia Cassia and Livia Cornelia want to start a
Feminist group in NR, that's fine, too. If a gay couple want me to officiate
at their wedding as Flamen Floralis, or if someone sponsors real live Roman
games involving killing animals as part of NR, or sells Pecorino Romano in
the Macellum, you'll all get Vado's views on same-sex marriage, blood sports
and the price of cheese - but not until then.

As for saying rude things about the policies of the macronations of which we
hold joint citizenship, I'm sure we're all capable of spouting 'til the
bile in this Forum is ankle-deep and we all hate each other's gurs forever.
But I didn't join NR to get pissed off about the largely currently
irrelevant concerns and issues of the macronational 21st Century CE. And it
won't endear prospective new cives to us, either. So, please - no more!
Let's try and remember that being Roman is to be cosmopolitan and inclusive,
and to have a culture and a religion worth sharing with the world.

Valete,

Vado.

Subject: American Nova Romans

I found this web page today.

Those of you looking for an alternative to the Republican and Democratic
parties MAY find this of interest. This in no way implies that I either
advocate or denigrate the views expressed on this site.

http://www.angelfire.com/ut/fascism/

This is the Fascist Party, USA. Nice image of Augustus Caesar too.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:30:58 +0200

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> Rome WAS Fascist. Fascism is derived from fasces, the symbol of
magesterial power. If someone attempted to interfere with the magistrate,
the lictors could untie the bundle of rods and use them to administer a
good thumping.
>
> Rome may have grown as a republic, and a very corrupt one at that. But
she achieved her real lasting greatness not as a republic, but under the
Prinicipate. In truth, fascism is very Roman.
>
> GLF

Yes, but not the fascist way as we know it today - and certainly not as it
is known here in Europe.

Vale,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae,
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
"There is no knowledge that is not power"
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
--**--


Subject:	[novaroma] Senate voting concluded.
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:53:29 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Politics and Utopia
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:53:28 EDT

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Salvete Gaius Metellus et al.

My own thoughts on this subject differ from yours:

Fascism is simply rule based upon raw power - undoubtably the oldest form
of government in the universe. It works well for those in power, as long
as they can stay awake or hire enough lackeys to protect them. And then
stay awake to watch out for their lackeys.

The italian fascists called themselves fascists because they took Roma
Antiqua as their propaganda model and they used the fasces as their
symbol. The german fascists called themselves socialists. Both groups
were basically thugs in large numbers, like most governments in the world.

Democracies don't seem to last long enough to evaluate their success.
They are quickly subverted by "strong leadership" or by special
interests, with the cooperation of the voting populace most of whom
inevitably prefer not to be bothered with the responsibilities of
government. I suppose that in itself makes democracy a failure.

One would have to say that the jury is still out on communism. Since it
has never been tried anywhere on a national scale, one can hardly
conclude that it is doomed to failure. However, since it is essentially
democracy expanded into the economic sphere, one could logically conclude
that it would fall victim to the same flaws as do other democracies.

There is no governmental pattern or format that can overcome the inherent
flaws of human beings. There is no defence against human stupidity.

To those who would claim this has no relevance to Nova Roma, one can only
say "Hello? Have you just dropped in?" We have been struggling for two
years here about how government should be conducted within the framework
of our Constitution. We have the whole spectrum of political inclinations
in Nova Roma, from "fascists" who want to firmly keep everybody in line,
to radical populists who want the body of the people to vote on
everything that comes up. All for the good of the State, of course. The
same spectrum existed in Roma Antiqua, as it does anywhere that humans
are banded together into a nation-state.

As long as it remains focused on intelligent discussion of real issues
and doesn't devolve into a "shouting match" or ad hominem squabbles, it
is relevant to Nova Roma to discuss philosophies of government and
governance.

All of the above is personal opinion except for the last paragraph, which
is an opinion of a Tribune of the Plebs.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

On 9/3/00 3:01 AM websurfer07@-------- (websurfer07@--------) wrote:

>
>Salvete omnes,
>
>
> I thought I'd throw in my thoughts into the mix, since this is a
>topic that caught my interest. Let me preface this by saying this is
>all my opinion, much as the previous posts have been the opinion of
>their respective authors.
> Personally, I see fascism, like communism (and perhaps democracy
>as we know it) as doomed to fail. Communism and fascism are
>ideologies that work well on paper, but fail when put in practice.
>History should serve as a testament to this. But I suppose history
>is a matter of perspective.
> In all fairness perhaps democracy will see its end as well.
>It's hard to tell since it's still an experiment in progress.
> I think part of the reason why these systems seem to fail is
>that they aim at establishing a kind of utopia, an ideal society.
>This is fine, but part of the problem with this is that it entails
>the sacrifice of human individuality for the sake of the state.
>There is a totalitarian bent to these systems which hides behind the
>veneer of structure and order. The desire to attain this abstract
>ideal of utopia supercedes any practicality.
> It's not simply a question of loss of freedom, as we in the
>20th century define it, but also a sacrifice of that creative impetus
>that individuality affords. It is always those who oppose the status
>quo, the iconoclasts that bring about change and progress, in some
>form or the other.
> I think the key for a successful society is to balance the
>Apollonian (the structured) with the Dionysian (the radical,
>proactive). But that is the struggle of the ages.
> It's like when someone says it's a "computer error." Well,
>computers don't run themselves. Likewise, governments don't run
>themselves.
> Anyway, I'm not a politician nor in any way politically
>inclined. Just some observations.
>
>- G. Metellus Valentinus

If the strong are willing to die for justice, the weak are certain to
dominate the gene pool. Darwin


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:52:39 -0400

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Salvete!

I agree that Festus' original message was wholly off-topic. The most recent
one is not, but is equally pernicious:

Festus wrote:

>Rome WAS Fascist. Fascism is derived from fasces, the symbol of
magesterial power. If someone attempted to interfere with >the magistrate,
the lictors could untie the bundle of rods and use them to administer a
good thumping.

Respondeo:
Not after the institution of the tribunate. Roman law in the developed
Republic allowed every citizen the right of provocatio ad populum, appeal
to the Comitia, against the threat of force by a magistrate. Magistrates
who made uses of force without the sanction of the law risked prosecution.

Festus wrote:

>Rome may have grown as a republic, and a very corrupt one at that. But
she achieved her real lasting greatness not as a >republic, but under the
Prinicipate. In truth, fascism is very Roman.

Respondeo:
(a) What is meant by "lasting greatness"? That most of the
surviving ruins date from the imperial period? Rome's greatest legacy to
the modern world was the idea of law and its rich elaboration, which was
already highly developed in the later Republic. It is, moreover, a view
commonly held among ancient historians that as soon as ancient Rome ceased
to expand (which happened under Hadrian), she entered into the phase of
crises in holding the frontier which eventually brought down the western
empire.
(b) In any case, the principate was in no sense fascist. The
central state was a disguised military regime, but local government, far
from being centrally controlled, was in a system of civitates each of which
was a miniature Republic with its own elected magistrates and its own laws.
Even at the centre the constitutional legal system continued to operate.The
Christian Paul could stand on his Roman citizenship and demand a Roman
trial. Only with the Tetrarchy in the 290s and, more particularly, with the
Christian regime after Constantine, was local government reduced to the
puppet of the central regime, torture in judicial proceedings become
standard practice in dealing with lower class citizens, etc. This regime,
which can perhaps be called totalitarian and therefore fascist, staggered
from crisis to crisis until its western citizens preferred the barbarians
and - not much later - many of its eastern citizens preferred the Muslims.

On modern fascism, I should add, it seems to me that this regime submitted
itself to the judgment of Mars in 1939, and on the field of Mars it was
judged and it and its claims to be superior to republican institutions were
destroyed.

Valete,
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:25:34 +0200

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Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I�m a Roman. I�m also of german origin. And I�m Legatus of the Germany Regio of
the Provincia Germania. So I have to raise my voice.

In Germany there was an ugly crime just before a few weeks. A man from Angola
was killed by a horde of subjects, which call themselves "Skinheads". This man
was beaten to death. He left 3 children and his wife. There are a lot of
examples for similar crimes.

These skinheads are the heirs of the Nazi�s. They are Neo-Nazis and they are
fascists. In the state of Germany they are enemies of the contitution. And they
are murderers.

In Germany and Austria we have to carry a burden. From the united Germany and
Austria, called "Grossdeutschland" by the Nazis, the greatest war of history was
started. And greatest crimes against all mankind was comitted. My familiy lost 5
members during the 2nd World War. The family of my girl-friend completely lost
their homes in Silesia.

So I have nothing to add to the post of Propraetor M. Marcius Rex.

I feel frightend about the whole topic. Do the fascists come back? I pray that
the Gods of Rome will prevent this. In Germany. In Nova Roma. In the USA and the
whole world.

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Legatus Germaniae

RexMarcius@-------- schrieb:

> Marcus Marcius Rex omnibus salutem plurimum dicit!
>
> As the governor of Provincia Germania, I find this post of Gaius Lupinius
> Festus especially troubling. With regard to the fascist history (yes, Sulla,
> the Nazis can and are described as fascists) of Germany and Austria I have
> several times been asked, whether Nova Roma and my province Germania in
> particular are in any way intended to recreate something like the fascist
> ideas of the recent past (as they are so excellently described in their
> blatant stupidity at this website).
>
> I have always and firmly denied this as an official of Nova Roma and I also
> did it out of conviction. I may have to add that in Austria, the Criminal
> Code outlaws everything that would support fascist ideas (this is of course
> against American free speech ideals but it is a basic principle of our
> constitution). In the interest of Provincia Germania I would therefore in
> line with the senior Consul ask the moderator to intervene here, as this
> thread serves no purpose for Nova Roma.
>
> And Gaie Lupinie: learn history, and learn it well!
>
> Ave et Vale
> Marcus Marcius Rex
> Propraetor Germaniae


Subject:	[novaroma] Greetings from a newbie.
From:	"Raven Leigh" <qeshet@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 18:48:31 GMT


Subject:	[novaroma] Latin Translation of Main Page of NR Site
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:48:14 +0200


Subject:	[novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	"Richard Janos" <richjanos@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:39:47 GMT


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: roman antiquities bargains
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 21:58:56 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:07:25 -0700

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Ave,

Since this I am not any much more than a couch historian, (no degree), and
my interest has been in other aspects of Rome could someone please comment
on the historical accuracy of Magister's response?

Thanks! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Macnair" <MikeMacnair@-------->
To: "Nova Roma" <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] American Nova Romans

>
> Salvete!
>
> I agree that Festus' original message was wholly off-topic. The most
recent
> one is not, but is equally pernicious:
>
> Festus wrote:
>
> >Rome WAS Fascist. Fascism is derived from fasces, the symbol of
> magesterial power. If someone attempted to interfere with >the
magistrate,
> the lictors could untie the bundle of rods and use them to administer a
> good thumping.
>
> Respondeo:
> Not after the institution of the tribunate. Roman law in the developed
> Republic allowed every citizen the right of provocatio ad populum, appeal
> to the Comitia, against the threat of force by a magistrate. Magistrates
> who made uses of force without the sanction of the law risked prosecution.
>
> Festus wrote:
>
> >Rome may have grown as a republic, and a very corrupt one at that. But
> she achieved her real lasting greatness not as a >republic, but under the
> Prinicipate. In truth, fascism is very Roman.
>
> Respondeo:
> (a) What is meant by "lasting greatness"? That most of the
> surviving ruins date from the imperial period? Rome's greatest legacy to
> the modern world was the idea of law and its rich elaboration, which was
> already highly developed in the later Republic. It is, moreover, a view
> commonly held among ancient historians that as soon as ancient Rome ceased
> to expand (which happened under Hadrian), she entered into the phase of
> crises in holding the frontier which eventually brought down the western
> empire.
> (b) In any case, the principate was in no sense fascist. The
> central state was a disguised military regime, but local government, far
> from being centrally controlled, was in a system of civitates each of
which
> was a miniature Republic with its own elected magistrates and its own
laws.
> Even at the centre the constitutional legal system continued to
operate.The
> Christian Paul could stand on his Roman citizenship and demand a Roman
> trial. Only with the Tetrarchy in the 290s and, more particularly, with
the
> Christian regime after Constantine, was local government reduced to the
> puppet of the central regime, torture in judicial proceedings become
> standard practice in dealing with lower class citizens, etc. This regime,
> which can perhaps be called totalitarian and therefore fascist, staggered
> from crisis to crisis until its western citizens preferred the barbarians
> and - not much later - many of its eastern citizens preferred the Muslims.
>
> On modern fascism, I should add, it seems to me that this regime submitted
> itself to the judgment of Mars in 1939, and on the field of Mars it was
> judged and it and its claims to be superior to republican institutions
were
> destroyed.
>
> Valete,
> M. Mucius Scaevola Magister
>
>
>
>