Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: roman antiquities bargains
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Sun, 03 Sep 2000 20:36:04 -0500


Subject:	[novaroma] Thanks for all the welcomes and info--from the newbie
From:	"Raven Leigh" <qeshet@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 02:17:00 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] American Fascists
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT)


Subject:	[novaroma] Draft of guidelines for this list
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 04:14:31 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: roman antiquities bargains
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Mon, 4 Sep 2000 02:00:58 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roman Reading
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sun, 3 Sep 2000 23:57:11 -0700 (PDT)


Subject:	[novaroma] Fascism and Rome
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:32:20 +0100


Subject:	[novaroma] Digest Number 999 'fascism'
From:	"Lucius" <vergil@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:13:43 -0400

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Salvete, Quirites

Does anyone else see the Irony in this? ;-)

Valete, L Equitius

(Homines quod volunt credunt)
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:41:51 -0000
From: "pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Subject: The Curatrix Sermonem speaks

I would like to state that further conversation on the topic of
fascism
and macronational politics should be taken off-list. Of course these
topics are important (indeed, I might argue that every Nova Roman who
wishes to demonstrate the Roman virtues is obligated to vote and
otherwise participate in the politics of his or her macronation).

But these are not relevant to the topic of THIS list, which is
ancient
Rome and Nova Roma. And they are topics on which intelligent Nova
Romans may legitimately hold widely varying views, views which are
not
likely to be changed here.

Therefore, please make it Roman or take it off-list.

Patricia Cassia
Curatrix Sermonem (list moderator)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Digest Number 999 'fascism'
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 14:32:28 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Pridie Nonas Septembres (September 4th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:43:47 +0100

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Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens could
vote on political or criminal matters.

Today is the first day of the Ludi Romani or Ludi Magni, the games in honour
of Iuppiter Optimus Maximus! These games were founded by king Tarquin the
Elder.
These games were originally celebrated extraordinarily in honour of a
triumph and comprised one day only, being held on September 13. By at least
366 BC the Ludi Romani had become annual games. They gradually expanded to
10 days by the late republic, and 15 days by the time of Julius Caesar, with
an extra day to honour the deceased Iulius Caesar (Divus Iulius), covering
half the month from 4-19 September by the time of the Principate.
The festival starts with a solemn procession from the Capitol to the Circus
Maximus, where a sacrifice is offered to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus. The
procession consists on a parade of cavalry and infantry, bigae and
quadrigae, athletes, armed dansers organised by age, music players, choirs
dressed as Sileni and Satyrs mimicking a Dionysian parade. Vases to burn
incense are carried, as well as vases of gold and silver broght from the
temples for the occasion. The statues of the Gods close the procession.
The games consist of chariot races, gymnastic tournaments and theatrical
performances.

The month of September is sacred to Vulcan.

Pax Deorum vobiscum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Digest Number 999 'fascism'
From:	"Lucius" <vergil@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:03:24 -0400


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roman Reading
From:	heckifiknow@--------
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 19:15:41 +0200

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I posted this message a few days ago but it didn�t seem to get trough, sorry.

As you can see below I would suggest Christian Meiers biography of Caesar. It�s a German author but as far as I know there is a
translation available. He has some interesting ideas and is one of the most gifted modern orators in Germany.

Salve,

First of all I think you should try to get a good deal of the ancient
authors ( Tacitus, Caesar, Pliny, Polybius, Livy, etc. )

My top books are:

Meier, Christian : Caesar
Gruen, Erich S. : The last
Generation of the Roman Republic
Goldsworthy, Adrian Keith : The
Roman Army at War
Etienne, Robert : Pompeii
Connolly, Peter : The Ancient City
Finley, Moses : Politics in the
Ancient World
Salway, Peter: Roman Britain (
Oxford History of England )
Junkelmann, Marcus : Die Legionen
des Augustus
Bellen, Heinz : Grundz�ge der
R�mischen Geschichte Bd. 1
Bleicken, Jochen : Die Verfassung
der R�mischen Republik
Bleicken, Jochen : Augustus
Christ, Karl : Krise und Untergang
der R�mischen Republik

Vale
Lucius Metellus

gmvick32@-------- wrote:

>
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> I have a question:
>
> What are the top 10 books written about ancient Rome (either
> modern or ancient) that you think should be on every Nova
> Roman's bookshelf??
>
> I'm looking for those books that you think are definitive to
> our study of ancient Rome. It doesn't have to be EXACTLY
> 10, but I'd like the top books you think are must reads.
>
> I'll try to compile and post a comprehensive list. Also, I
> have to think about my own and I'll post those later.
>
> L. Cornelia Aurelia


Subject:	[novaroma] Roman books
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:29:59 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman antiquities bargain
From:	"Cornelius Scriptor" <cornelius_scriptor@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:30:51 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roman Reading
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:24:13 -0500


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Roman books
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:12:16 -0600


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman antiquities bargain
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:59:40 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roman Reading
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 21:16:18 +0200


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Greetings from a newbie.
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 21:26:49 +0200


Subject:	[novaroma] Fascist Rome
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:25:06 EDT

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In a message dated 9/3/00 12:53:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
MikeMacnair@-------- writes:

<< What is meant by "lasting greatness"? That most of the
surviving ruins date from the imperial period? Rome's greatest legacy to
the modern world was the idea of law and its rich elaboration, which was
already highly developed in the later Republic. >>

Rome's glory was the unparalleled Pax Romana, maintained by the force of
Roman might and cunning under the principate. Imperial Rome gave the world
the pax romana and the so-called "Golden and Silver" ages of art and
literature. In these things, the corrupt Republic, ripped by endless civil
wars and nearly lost by the incompetence and short sightedness of the
senatorial class {and aided by richer plebs}. Rome was spared this and went
on to leave it's lasting mark, not by senatorial squabbling, but by the
leadership of great men such as Julius and Augustus.

<<It is, moreover, a view commonly held among ancient historians that as soon
as ancient Rome ceased to expand (which happened under Hadrian), she entered
into the phase of crises in holding the frontier which eventually brought
down the western
empire.>>

I hope the proponents of this view are not suggesting that Rome's ceasing to
expand brought her down. Perpetual expansion is not possible. In fact, it
expanded too much, causing a strain on the military needed to secure the
frontiers. A larger army requires more revenue, which in turn requires more
taxation. et al.

<<(b) In any case, the principate was in no sense fascist. The
central state was a disguised military regime...>>

Fascist states are military regimes, disguised or not.

<<...but local government, far
from being centrally controlled, was in a system of civitates each of which
was a miniature Republic with its own elected magistrates and its own laws.>>

There is nothing incompatible with fascism here. The question is, from where
did these localities recieve these rights?
They recieved them from the central government, and the central authority
could alter, abolish, or restore these as it deemed fit. When the emperor
Gaius told the Jews to set up his statue in their temple, they had no
recourse to law. They could not sue Gaius or his government on the grounds
that he was exceeding his authority. All they could do was send a delegation
to him *asking* he change his mind and withdraw the order. Rome could allow
a measure of self-government, or step in and turn the place into an imperial
province under Rome's direct control.
There are reasons why the Emperor might allow a limited self-government, none
of which deny the reality of the Emperors power. It can be expedient. A
large empire is more difficult to micro-manage than a locality. So as long
as the city or province does not counter Rome's will, some self-rule in local
affairs is practical and takes some burdon off Romes shoulders. But that
burdon could be re-assumed at the will of the Emperor.
Another reason is that in a large empire, the emperor will find himself
ruling people of various cultures. Later fascist states were not nearly so
large or long lived, and so this was not as much of an issue as it was for
the Roman state. Taking a cue from the example of the Persians, the Romans
would find it easier to control if they tried a policy of respecting local
cultures instead of quashing them {a la the Assyrians}. But the practicality
of this approach in no way diminishes the power of the fascist Roman state.

Praetor Graecus brings up the freedom of speech and of belief in ancient
Rome as a proof that Rome was not fascistic. But I would ask the Praetor if
he would exercise such freedom of speech to criticize Tiberius in the later
part of his reign? Some emperors were very autocratic; others less so. All
of them had the power to be so. It boils down to the individual emperor's
style. Tiberius was very tolerant in the first half of his reign. When he
began to use the treason laws, the picture changed. Because a ruler has a
certain power does not mean that the ruler will necessarily USE that power.
Roman law once allowed the power of life and death by the Paterfamilias over
his whole family. But were Roman dads executing their children right and
left? Roman fathers could contract marriages for their children. The law
did not require them to get the consent of their children first. But did all
of them exercise this power? In the same way each emperor could relax or
tighten the reins of government as he saw fit. Emperors endorsed or
suppressed religious sects as they saw fit, depending on their own views as
to wheher or not such sects were treasonous to the state.

Magister also seems to think that fascism precludes legal rights to
trial and to appeal. What does he base this on?
Courts of law operated in Spain and Italy, and today even the worthless
People's Republic of China has such things as the right to trial and the
right of representation by an attorney. Rome was no different. A state,
including fascist states, have bureaucracies to maintain operation of
governmental functions and courts. It is literally impossible for a ruler,
even a fascist ruler, to govern a sizeable empire without such institutions
to see to day-to-day operations of law and order. Not if the ruler wishes to
be effective.

So, was the Roman Empire fascist? Yes. It had all the ingredients of
fascist rule. A single ruler in whom rested supreme power, in command of the
military, with propaganda emphasizing the supremacy of the state over the
individual in the form of temples to the emperors genius, temples to Roma,
coinage proclaiming his virtues {real or imagined}, secret police and
informers, and no way to democratically remove the ruler. The castrated
senate could proclaim Nero a public enemy...ONLY with a new emperor like
Galba leading an army to the city. Nothing republican in a coup or military
revolt. The word 'fascist' was coined in the 19th century, but its essence
was already present in the Roman Empire.

We may give Augustus Caesar credit for this. His brilliance was in
creating a system which continued to have the forms of the Republic, but in
which the Princeps held the real powers. In his hands lay the consular,
tribunician, censorial and praetorian powers. He, like Julius before him,
had no reason to call themselves 'King'---they already had the powers of a
king without need for the title. So as to avoid offending the sensibilities
of the aristocracy and the people, he allowed the forms to remain, proclaimed
himself as "Savior of the Republic", while in truth he buried the carcass of
the inept and decayed republic. In one of my favorite lines from the TV
production of I'Claudius, Livia says to Julia, "Your father follows the
forms. It's very important. Romans like to think they govern themselves".
In truth however, they did not except in such areas as was ALLOWED them by
the Emperor. The Pax Romana was the most successful and long lived Fascist
state the western world has seen.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	[novaroma] Ca-ca-cacography
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:35:52 GMT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Ca-ca-cacography
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 4 Sep 2000 15:58:27 -0700