Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re:Const. Quest: Discretion
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:05:17 EDT

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Salvete Censori Luci et Quiritibus

To continue, our disagreement is not over the definition of terms like
maintain, mandate, or discretion. Rather it is with the way Sulla interprets
the discretion he is allowed under the law in performing his mandated duties
of record keeping, to maintain Nova Roma albums, whereby he extends his
powers beyond the boundaries allowed by the Constitution.

<<Sulla: Again, I totally disagree with you. Once again, I refer you to
the defination of discretion>>

Let's do that.

<<Sulla: And, again, the relevant statement there is "at the discretion of
the Censors." So, I have pulled out my Law Dictionary, and here is the
legal defination of discretion, "n. the power of a judge, public official or
a private party (under authority given by contract, trust or will) to make
decisions on various matters based on his/her opinion within general legal
guidelines.>>

The key phrase here is "within the general legal guidelines."

<<Sulla: Also, is another definition of discretion, "discretion noun [U]
choice, or the right to make a choice, based on judgment Troopers have
discretion in deciding whom to stop for speeding. >>

And here is an excellent example to consider, as the practice of
profiling in the exercise of such discretionary powers is now under judicial
review in this country. With every example sited in your Law Dictionary and
elsewhere, a judge, police officer, DA, or elected official, even the
mailman, has discretionary powers in the exercise of their duties. But such
powers are very narrowly defined and the exercise of such powers are always
subject review. Just because one has discretionary powers in the performance
of their duties does not mean they can do whatever they please. They must
remain within the boundaries of "general legal guidelines." At no time may
the use of discretionary authority in the performance of one's duty exceed
the powers granted by law. If you care for an example of this within the
Constitution itself, then look to IV.B.1. where the extraordinarii dictator
is limited in his discretionary powers when "the Senate may prescribe a given
task or boundaries within which the dictator is obliged to remain."

What the Lex Vedia states is that the censors have a discretionary power
with regard to including the Senators named in a Senatus Consultum into the
Album Senatorium. If, as Censor Merullus states, the censors wish to wait
until one time of year to enter the names of all those elevated to the Senate
by election as magistrates, all those magistrates who petition the censors,
and all those raised by the Senate, then it is in their discretionary
prerogative of performing their duties to make that decision. But you have
taken that a step further and exceeded your authority under the Constitution
if you say that those so elevated by the Senate are not Senators unless they
are approved by the censors.

Look again at what the Constitution says. The censors are empowered
(IV.A.1.a) "to issue those edicta (edicts) necessary to carry out those tasks
in which they are mandated by this Constitution and the law to engage." The
Constitution then mandates the duties of the censors to be to maintain the
album civium, the album gentium, the album senatorium and the album
equestris. The censors' mandate is to "maintain" these albums and nothing
more here. "To maintain" in itself does not mean your discretionary powers
gives you any authority to decide to nullify the decision of the Senate.

It is the same matter with a Clerk of Courts who is mandated to maintain
the county records. He or she would have discretionary powers, under some
legal guidelines, as to how she or he may conduct the necessary duties. If
they were to enter a marriage into the records they have the discretionary
power to do it today or next week. But if they do not, by that discretionary
power there is no extension of their authority to deny the validity of the
marriage simply because they disapproved. And were they to fail to record
the marriage, the record would have to be corrected, but the marriage in no
way would be regarded as nullified.

You have agreed with this viewpoint in the case of the album civium:
<<Sulla: In the example you cited above, the album civium example the answer
of course would be NO. Becuase that process is clearly spelled out in the
Constituion. ... It is the duty of the Censors to put all citizens in Tribes
and Centuries. How, that is done, is again at the discretion of the
Censors! :) There are some guidelines to assist the Censors in this
process....>>

The discretionary authority referred to in the Lex Vedia Senatorium is
only about how the censors carryout their duties in entering a nominated
Senator into the Album Senatorium. Why would you assume your discretionary
power gives you any additional powers here when it does not in the case of
all the other albums?

The Constitution continues with another power of the censors in that they
may collegially issue a nota, and also that they may appoint scribae.
Nowhere does the Constitution ascribe the censors authority to appoint
Senators. The Lex Vedia Senatoria makes mention that curule aediles and
appointed provincial governors may at the discretion of the censors be
included in the album, after holding office six months. You have stated that
this process is if the curule aedile or governor first petitions the censors.
There is something more that needs to be clarified there, because the lex
does not say they automatically become Senators, nor does it spell out how
they are made Senators. The lex in section III refers to a procedure within
the Senate by which some cives may be elevated to the Senate. It does not
explicitly state what that procedure is, but it in no way states or implies
that the censors have been granted additional authority and powers under this
lex. It merely refers to the censors performing the duties they are mandated
to perform under the Constitution.

You have made an assumption that the censors have been granted some power
to nullify a Senatus Consultum. Unlike the Consuls, Praetors, or Aedile
Curule, censors do not hold Imperium, nor does the Constitution grant censors
a power of intercessio. The Consuls, Praetors, Aediles Curules, Aediles
Plebis, have powers of intercessio, but only on actions by magistrates of
equal or lessor rank. None of these magistrates have a right of intercessio
stipulated in the Constitution over a comitia or the Senate. Only the
Tribunes have a right of intercessio over magistrates, Senatus Consulta or
leges passed in comitiae.

In the first part of Section V. mention is again made of the Album
Senatorium being maintained by the censors. But for reasons cited above
there is no implication here in that that censors can add or remove Senators
from the Senate simply by their record keeping. Only by the procedure of
issuing a nota could both censors remove a Senator. No where does the
Constitution grant censors authority to elevate anyone to the status of
Senator.

Under V.F "The Senate may, by Senatus Consultum, enact rules governing
its own internal procedures (such Senatus consulta may not be overruled by
laws passed in the comitia.)" The Constitution doesn't exactly say how the
Senate is formed or composed. It does not exclude the Senate from adding
members to it by its own internal procedures. But it does say that laws
passed in comitia cannot over rule a Senatus Consultum. If the sole basis
you wish to cite for your assumed power of over ruling the Senate in this
matter is therefor the Lex Vedia Senatoria, then clearly you would be acting
contrary to the Constitution.

There are several places where the Constitution leaves open what
procedures are to be followed in the governance of Nova Roma. I see no
reason why the Senate, or the people, should accede to the assumptions made
by one individual, especially that of a high magistrate, nor even by two
magistrates acting collegially, in this particular matter, or in any other
matter where additional powers are being usurped. The "highest legal
authority within Nova Roma" may be the Constitution; ultimate authority,
however, resides entirely with "We, the Senate and People of Nova Roma."

Valete

Gn. Moravius Piscinus
Civis Novae Romae
Retarius et Rogator
Sodalitatis Latinitatis


Subject:	[novaroma] This is interesting. Comments?
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:35:26 EDT

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Reuters

LONDON (Sept. 8) - Something catastrophic occurred on Earth 1,500 years ago
that may have led to the Dark Ages and coincided with the end of the Roman
Empire and the death of King Arthur, a Northern Ireland scientist said on
Friday.

It could have been a bombardment of cometary debris or the eruption of a
super volcano.

But whatever it was, it is clearly etched in the chronology of tree rings
from around the world, according to Professor Mike Baillie, of Queen's
University in Belfast.

The global environmental event that occurred around 540 AD is not recorded in
any history books. But the tree ring chronologies compiled from samples of
trees, some preserved in bogs, which date back thousands of years, single out
something that was quite extraordinary.

''It was a catastrophic environmental downturn that shows up in trees all
over the world,'' Baillie told a news conference at the British Association
for the Advancement of Science conference.

''This event is clear in the tree ring records.''

The height of a tree is indicative of the quality of soil it is growing in
but the rings hold clues about past climate conditions and have been used to
date events in the past.

They correctly recorded the year without a summer in the North American
region in 1816 and the eruption of various volcanoes around the world.

Baillie believes the slowdown of tree growth recorded in the rings around 540
AD was due to a bombardment of cometary debris which happened around the time
of King Arthur's death, the end of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the
Dark Ages.

Traditional myths recorded in 13th century texts refer to a comet in Gaul
around 540 AD when the sky seemed to be on fire, according to Baillie.

''These myths hint strongly at a bombardment vector for the environmental
downturn but are almost universally dismissed as fiction or fantasy by
academics,'' he said.

Baillie is appealing to historians to accept that something terrible happened
around 540 AD and to find a record of it.

''I am calling for a debate by scientists and historians on how to approach
the evidence for catastrophic events of this kind which were previously not
known to have taken place,'' he added.

Reut12:17 09-08-00


Subject:	[novaroma] Const. Quest.:Judicial Review
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Fri, 8 Sep 2000 23:21:25 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] This is interesting. Comments?
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Fri, 8 Sep 2000 23:30:59 EDT


Subject:	[novaroma] Whoops! - - Misplaced announcement
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:19:28 EDT


Subject:	[novaroma] Const. Quest:RPG
From:	Piscinus@--------
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:39:49 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] This is interesting. Comments?
From:	"Gaius Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 10:14:48 -0400


Subject:	[novaroma] Soldalitates
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:52:27 +0200

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Salvete Quirites

As the recent post below indicates, there was some confusion on the
part of Consul Audens with respect to the Sodalitates which exist in
Nova Roma. I suppose the confusion to be due to the fact that there
is an additional one in the late planning stages, the Sodalitas
Musarum. This does not yet exist.

To clarify further, I think we must note that there exist four types
of group entity in Nova Roma:

A. State Institutions (e.g., the various comitia)
B. Official Sodalitates (see quoted list below)
C. Unofficial Organisations (e.g. the Delecti - see below)
D. Mailing Lists (May belong to A or B or C or be independent in
themselves such as RomanOutpost and ForTheMuses.)

The Sodalitas Musarum, which *will be* in category B is still being
organised by a separate organisation, the Delecti ad Partum
Sodalitatis Musarum Expediendum (the Committee for the Expediting of
the Birth of the Sodalitas Musarum), as we quaintly call ourselves.
The Delicti are an unofficial organisation (Category C) convoked by
Aeternia Draconia for the purpose of this founding labour.

I am happy to say that the Delecti have been working with great
concord and harmony and at an almost breakneck pace to bring the
Sodality to Nova Roma as soon as possible. Supposedly the vote on the
final version of the sodalitas constitution will take place soon,
enabling the putting of it to a vote by future members and a
submission of the approved constitution and other required materials
to the Senate for approval. Only after the Senate has approved it
will it elect its officers and begin functioning.

There is virtually unanimous agreement that it will include all the
arts, humanities and even social and natural sciences, with the
participants working in semi-autonomous collegia. As there is nothing
very controversial about it or real doubt about its value, I
personally predict that it will be an approved sodalitas no later
than mid-November at worst, and I have hopes for October.

In the meantime, if you have any ideas relating to poetry or the
arts, the place to go is *not* the Delecti, but the independent list
ForTheMuses (Category D), founded also by Aeternia, at eGroups. The
Delecti and some other potential future members of the Sodalitas
Musarum can be found there. The good idea of M. Cornelius Scriptor
about Trois-Rivi�res might go to the List now, but for next year the
Sodalitas Musarum should be up and running, and I am sure the
Sodalitas Latinitatis would be interested too.

It is really a good sign that Consul Audens can think he was loosing
track of the sodalitates (actually he didn't) - it shows that there
is a useful cultural ferment in Nova Roma that will hopefully be
involving ever more of us in constructive, educative, fascinating and
fun Roman activites.

Valete!

In response to a request of the Consul Marcus Minucius Audens, I
hereby transmit to all the list of officially approved sodalitates of
Nova Roma reported by Censor Caius Marius Merullus:

>From: c_marius_m@-------- (C Marius Merullus)
>To: jmath669642reng@-------- (Audens)
>CC: Egressus@--------, censors@novaroma.org,
senate@--------,
Caesar@--------,
>LSergAust@--------
>Salve Consul Marce Minuci
>
>As you requested, the following is a list of current sodalitates;
the Tribunes are included in the cc field of this message. If anyone
knows of an officially approved sodalitas not included here, I ask
for correction. Sodalitas Militarium (Military -- included on
website) Sodalitas pro Coqueror et Coquus (Cooking -- included on
website) Sodalitas Egressus (Outreach - not yet on website)
>Sodalitas Latinitatis (Latin - not yet on website)
>
>All the above have been approved by the Senate of Nova Roma, and are
>therefore Nova Roman Sodalitates.
>
>Magna cum reverentia
>

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius � � � � � � �
ICQ# 61698049 Firetalk: Apollonius 1588367
AIM: MAFormosanus � � � � � � �MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] This is interesting. Comments?
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:59:09 -0500 (CDT)

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> LONDON (Sept. 8) - Something catastrophic occurred on Earth 1,500 years ago
> that may have led to the Dark Ages and coincided with the end of the Roman
> Empire and the death of King Arthur, a Northern Ireland scientist said on
> Friday.

Just last monday I saw a PBS documentary on this. It was called
"Catastrophe: The Day the Sun Went Out". I think next week's episode
is supposed to be a continuation of this. (In Chicago: channel 20,
monday, 9pm).

The web site for the show is:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/html/e1-about.html

The show examined the evidence for a long darkness in 536 AD -- tree
rings and written records -- and explored possible causes such as
meteorites and volcanoes (Krakatoa was studied in depth).

One of the authors they interviewed was David Keys, whose book on this
subject is "Catastrophe: A Quest for the Origins of the Modern World",
at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345408764/novaroma00A

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/


Subject:	[novaroma] 313 AD
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:03:27 -0500


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: 313 AD (or was it 415?)
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:37:49 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Subject: This is interesting. Comments?
From:	Jennifer E Hunt <riturtle@-------->
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:07:27 -0400

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Salvete omnes,

I saw a program on PBS or the Discovery channel about this a few months
ago, but the date(s) in question were different. If I remember
correctly, it was more like 650 BCE or so -- I don't remember. (Anyone
else besides me ever wish they'd taken notes while watching tv?)

This guy had investigated several different types of evidence of possible
causes for the tree ring phenomenon (dentrology, is it?), including
written and geological evidence, as well as ice core samples from both
poles which indicated an increased amount of sulphur and ash during the
decade in question. I believe the conclusion he finally came to (and the
most interesting aspect of the program was that it followed the progress
of his study, chronologically and logically) was that there was a *huge*
(read: like nothing else documented -- ever) explosion/eruption of
Krakatoa which vomited forth such ash and gases as to encircle the globe
and obscure the sun for between 3-18 months. I think it was the Irish
monks (among others) who documented an 18-month winter sometime in the
mid-7th century, and the tree-rings indicated a period of about a
*decade* of decreased growth, pretty much like a prolonged period of
dormancy.

What was also facsinating about this program was that the guy elaborated
on the social and historical implications of this climatological
catastrophe. I remember in particular that the Vals (??--correct me if I
have it wrong) were a nomadic tribe from western Asia who -- mostly
because of the climatic changes of this time -- migrated somewhat west
and south in search of better pastures for their horses. (The Huns had
different kinds of horses who could thrive on the taller, coarser kinds
of grass, but the Vals' horses could not.) Their migration is also
evidenced by the introduction in Europe of the use of the stirrup for
horse tack, making horseback combat much easier, which as you might
suppose, had a profound historical impact on Europe.

Anyway, if I ever remember what the program was called or where I saw it,
I'll be sure and mention it, but I don't usually monitor this list. So
if anyone has any additional comments regarding this thread, I would
appreciate them cc'ing me personally.

Pax Deorum vobiscum,

Jenni
(Julia Ovidia Luna)

LONDON (Sept. 8) - Something catastrophic occurred on Earth 1,500 years
ago
that may have led to the Dark Ages and coincided with the end of the
Roman
Empire and the death of King Arthur, a Northern Ireland scientist said on

Friday.

It could have been a bombardment of cometary debris or the eruption of a
super volcano.

But whatever it was, it is clearly etched in the chronology of tree rings

from around the world, according to Professor Mike Baillie, of Queen's
University in Belfast.

The global environmental event that occurred around 540 AD is not
recorded in
any history books. But the tree ring chronologies compiled from samples
of
trees, some preserved in bogs, which date back thousands of years, single
out
something that was quite extraordinary.

''It was a catastrophic environmental downturn that shows up in trees all

over the world,'' Baillie told a news conference at the British
Association
for the Advancement of Science conference.

''This event is clear in the tree ring records.''

The height of a tree is indicative of the quality of soil it is growing
in
but the rings hold clues about past climate conditions and have been used
to
date events in the past.

They correctly recorded the year without a summer in the North American
region in 1816 and the eruption of various volcanoes around the world.

Baillie believes the slowdown of tree growth recorded in the rings around
540
AD was due to a bombardment of cometary debris which happened around the
time
of King Arthur's death, the end of the Roman Empire and the beginning of
the
Dark Ages.

Traditional myths recorded in 13th century texts refer to a comet in Gaul

around 540 AD when the sky seemed to be on fire, according to Baillie.

''These myths hint strongly at a bombardment vector for the environmental

downturn but are almost universally dismissed as fiction or fantasy by
academics,'' he said.

Baillie is appealing to historians to accept that something terrible
happened
around 540 AD and to find a record of it.

''I am calling for a debate by scientists and historians on how to
approach
the evidence for catastrophic events of this kind which were previously
not
known to have taken place,'' he added.

Reut12:17 09-08-00


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: This is interesting. Comments?
From:	"Razenna " <razenna@-------->
Date:	Sat, 09 Sep 2000 16:26:19 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Soldalitates
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:54:06 -0600

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How are you progressing on all of this in the extended abscence of Lucilla
Cornelia, who was appointed moderator?

Livia Cornelia

"M. Apollonius Formosanus" wrote:

>
> Salvete Quirites
>
> As the recent post below indicates, there was some confusion on the
> part of Consul Audens with respect to the Sodalitates which exist in
> Nova Roma. I suppose the confusion to be due to the fact that there
> is an additional one in the late planning stages, the Sodalitas
> Musarum. This does not yet exist.
>
> To clarify further, I think we must note that there exist four types
> of group entity in Nova Roma:
>
> A. State Institutions (e.g., the various comitia)
> B. Official Sodalitates (see quoted list below)
> C. Unofficial Organisations (e.g. the Delecti - see below)
> D. Mailing Lists (May belong to A or B or C or be independent in
> themselves such as RomanOutpost and ForTheMuses.)
>
> The Sodalitas Musarum, which *will be* in category B is still being
> organised by a separate organisation, the Delecti ad Partum
> Sodalitatis Musarum Expediendum (the Committee for the Expediting of
> the Birth of the Sodalitas Musarum), as we quaintly call ourselves.
> The Delicti are an unofficial organisation (Category C) convoked by
> Aeternia Draconia for the purpose of this founding labour.
>
> I am happy to say that the Delecti have been working with great
> concord and harmony and at an almost breakneck pace to bring the
> Sodality to Nova Roma as soon as possible. Supposedly the vote on the
> final version of the sodalitas constitution will take place soon,
> enabling the putting of it to a vote by future members and a
> submission of the approved constitution and other required materials
> to the Senate for approval. Only after the Senate has approved it
> will it elect its officers and begin functioning.
>
> There is virtually unanimous agreement that it will include all the
> arts, humanities and even social and natural sciences, with the
> participants working in semi-autonomous collegia. As there is nothing
> very controversial about it or real doubt about its value, I
> personally predict that it will be an approved sodalitas no later
> than mid-November at worst, and I have hopes for October.
>
> In the meantime, if you have any ideas relating to poetry or the
> arts, the place to go is *not* the Delecti, but the independent list
> ForTheMuses (Category D), founded also by Aeternia, at eGroups. The
> Delecti and some other potential future members of the Sodalitas
> Musarum can be found there. The good idea of M. Cornelius Scriptor
> about Trois-Rivi�res might go to the List now, but for next year the
> Sodalitas Musarum should be up and running, and I am sure the
> Sodalitas Latinitatis would be interested too.
>
> It is really a good sign that Consul Audens can think he was loosing
> track of the sodalitates (actually he didn't) - it shows that there
> is a useful cultural ferment in Nova Roma that will hopefully be
> involving ever more of us in constructive, educative, fascinating and
> fun Roman activites.
>
> Valete!
>
> In response to a request of the Consul Marcus Minucius Audens, I
> hereby transmit to all the list of officially approved sodalitates of
> Nova Roma reported by Censor Caius Marius Merullus:
>
> >From: c_marius_m@-------- (C Marius Merullus)
> >To: jmath669642reng@-------- (Audens)
> >CC: Egressus@--------, censors@novaroma.org,
> senate@--------,
> Caesar@--------,
> >LSergAust@--------
> >Salve Consul Marce Minuci
> >
> >As you requested, the following is a list of current sodalitates;
> the Tribunes are included in the cc field of this message. If anyone
> knows of an officially approved sodalitas not included here, I ask
> for correction. Sodalitas Militarium (Military -- included on
> website) Sodalitas pro Coqueror et Coquus (Cooking -- included on
> website) Sodalitas Egressus (Outreach - not yet on website)
> >Sodalitas Latinitatis (Latin - not yet on website)
> >
> >All the above have been approved by the Senate of Nova Roma, and are
> >therefore Nova Roman Sodalitates.
> >
> >Magna cum reverentia
> >
>
> Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
> Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
> Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
> ICQ# 61698049 Firetalk: Apollonius 1588367
> AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
> Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
> The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
> Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
> ________________________________________
> Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
> (Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
> ________________________________________


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: This is interesting. Comments?
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 09 Sep 2000 11:27:12 -0600

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Salvete, Omnes:

Anybody who finds this thread interesting should pick up and read anything
by Immanuel Velikovsky. Velikovsky is still controversial with orthedox
scientists for his theories, wherein he examines the writings of ancients
and corrolates them to triangulate on occurances of massive environmental
upheaval. (For the fact that he's not well-received, his theories are so
far ahead of the times he wrote them that it's parallel to Renaissance
scientists trying to defend the sun as the center of the universe. He is
now starting to gain some respect in the ranks of chaos scientists.)

I've read a couple of his books, and they are fascinating, well researched,
and worth the effort. They will challenge your view of ancient history, and
will also challenge you in thinking about the way ancient people viewed
their existence in the natural world.

Look into more about Velikovsky at
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/velikovsky/index.htm

Some titles (amazon.com:

Worlds in Collision (IMHO, the religio especially could find this book
interesting)
"Worlds in Collision is a book of wars in the celestial sphere that took
place in historical times. In these wars the planet earth participated too.
[...] The historical-cosmological story of this book is based in the
evidence of historical texts of many people around the globe, on classical
literature, on epics of the northern races, on sacred books of the peoples
of the Orient and Occident, on traditions and folklore of primitive peoples,
on old astronomical inscriptions and charts, on archaeological finds, and
also on geological and paleontological material." - Worlds In Collision,
Preface.

Ages in Chaos
"One of a set of four books covering ancient history, astronomy, geology,
sociology, and psychology, Dr.V.covered the catastrophic history of the
world,and the evidence for cometary impact on earth within historical times,
decades before the current scientific interest in the subject.His
conclusions require a complete rethinking and re-correlation of thoughts
concerning evolution, scriptures of the various cultures, mythology,and how
they should be re-considered,in a scientific approach. All of the books
should be considered as a unit and added to a knowledge of his other books
on the middle east--Oedipus and Akhnaton, The Sea Peoples & Ramses II,in
addition to the other three of the main group, Earth In Upheaval, Worlds In
Collision and Mankind In Amnesia, as well as that book which was written by
him as an answer to his critics, Stargazers and Gravediggers. A large
segment of the academic community attempted to suppress his books in the
50's,by putting pressure on his publisher to not print them,by threatening
to refuse to buy from their textbook division if they did so. Many critiques
of his work are based on distorted and inaccurate portrayals of what he
said. However, Albert Einstein, after becomming acquainted with him and
engaging in long debates with Dr.V., came to agree with him concerning his
views. Read the books,not just the critiques." - from amazon.com website

Earth in Upheaval (not in stock at amazon.com)

Oedipus and Akhnaton (not in stock at amazon.com)
Makes a scholarly analysis of the Oedipus myth of the Greeks and how it
relates to the Egyptians. He proceeds to draw many parallels between Pharaoh
Akenaten (Tutankamen's father) and Oedipus.

Peoples of the Sea (not in stock at amazon.com)

Ramses the 2nd and His Time (not in stock at amazon.com)

Vale,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia

Razenna wrote:

> A standard cross check for these types of things are Chinese records.
> Of course they also had periods of disruptions (unwashed folks from
> the other side of the border, dynastic disagreements, social
> readjustments) that caused the random hiatus in recording. What was
> going on in the Middle Kingdom in the first half of the VI Century
> c.e.? If China recorded nothing this might just ean that the event
> was local, though I will have to think on what Europe had to offer in
> the way of localized cataclysms. [More coffee!] Of course this is
> the type of thing that Baille is calling the experts from various
> fields to do -- check their own sources for cross references.
> Astronomers should be able to find a few of the known comets, etc.,
> that might have made a pass ca. 540.
>
> It is good to ruminate on this type of problem.
> C. Aelius Ericius.
> XXVIII Century Roman.
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@c...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > LONDON (Sept. 8) - Something catastrophic occurred on Earth 1,500
> years ago
> > > that may have led to the Dark Ages and coincided with the end of
> the Roman
> > > Empire and the death of King Arthur, a Northern Ireland scientist
> said on
> > > Friday.
> >
> > Just last monday I saw a PBS documentary on this. It was called
> > "Catastrophe: The Day the Sun Went Out". I think next week's
> episode
> > is supposed to be a continuation of this. (In Chicago: channel 20,
> > monday, 9pm).
> >
> > The web site for the show is:
> > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/html/e1-about.html
> >
> > The show examined the evidence for a long darkness in 536 AD -- tree
> > rings and written records -- and explored possible causes such as
> > meteorites and volcanoes (Krakatoa was studied in depth).
> >
> > One of the authors they interviewed was David Keys, whose book on
> this
> > subject is "Catastrophe: A Quest for the Origins of the Modern
> World",
> > at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345408764/novaroma00A
> >
> > Vale, Octavius.
> >
> > --
> > M. Octavius Germanicus
> > Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
> > Microsoft delenda est!
> > http://www.graveyards.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Fwd: [novaroma] Const. Quest:RPG]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 09 Sep 2000 07:29:32 -0700


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] This is interesting. Comments?
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:15:04 EDT


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] This is interesting. Comments?
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 20:08:40 +0200


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Soldalitates
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 9 Sep 2000 20:26:56 +0200


Subject:	[novaroma] "RPG", Resignations, et alia
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:00:42 GMT


Subject:	Re:[novaroma] This is interesting. Comments?
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:55:16 -0300