Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: [ReligioRomana] Reason and Gods
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Fri, 22 Sep 2000 01:11:16 +0100


Subject:	[novaroma] Mus Maiorum, was Re: Reason and Gods
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:11:26 -0500


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Few Thoughts on Religion and Divination
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Fri, 22 Sep 2000 01:50:08 EDT

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Salvete Pontiff Graecus and all others,

I have always enjoyed reading your posts on thse matters, this most
recent one no less than the others.

<< Furthermore, the celestial order and the beauty
of the universe compel me to confess that there is some excellent and
eternal Being, who deserves the respect and homage of men" {Cicero}>>

Well, I have to say that the teleological argument, the argument from order
or design, has never convinced me.
Our ideas of order come from our observations of the universe itself. So, to
say the universe is orderly is really saying only that the universe is the
universe. But it does not demonstrate the existence of the eternal being, or
God.

<<Anyway, I stress again that "I consider it the part of wisdom to preserve
the institutions of our forefathers by retaining their sacred rites and
ceremonies", and in this way, I consider that all Romans of Nova Roma have
the duty to participate in the sacred rites and ceremonies, for only in this
way we can consider ourselves heirs of their institutions.>>

Festus: Well, I am reluctant to toss any institution aside carelessly. I
hate the idea of change for the sake of change. So I respect Cicero's
conservatism here. Chesterson defined 'tradition' as "giving your ancestors
a vote". I would agree. But, while I am happy to give them a vote, I would
not give them an automatic overriding veto. Each generation has to reascess
the tradition it has inherited, see if it is relevant to their time or
answers their needs, and then either leave it as is, alter it somewhat, or
abolish it altogether. The people who practice the religio in fact do this.
{Wine oblations are in, animal sacrifice is now out} Not being a practioner
myself, it is not as much of a concern over here.

Now is the performance of the religio an actual duty for all Nova Romani?
Leaving aside the Constitution for now, I would still have to say no, and I'd
like to say why. If I understand your previous posts on the religio
correctly, the religio is not about belief, or the search for truth. It is
rather about honoring the gods through ritual. If I understand correctly, it
does not matter what you believe through science or philosophy. If you
believe the gods are actual eternal beings, great. If you believe they are
just symbols of values, with no actual existence of their own, that is fine
too. Regardless of your belief, doing the ritual is all that is required.

So, if belief or truth seeking not the issue, then the religio is to be
approached on purely pragmatic grounds. And this means one who thinks some
other need is answered by doing it, will do it. Those who do not have any
such hankering or desire will not do it. I think then that those of us who
are not religio practioners are not being derelict in duty. We just do not
have a hunger or need for it. On the other hand, if someone were to give
rational or evidential arguments for the existence of the gods, and make a
case that the religio is what these beings do wish, then we conceivably may
have a duty to the religio.

So Graecus, I think that by divorcing the religio from belief and credo, you
have unintentionally reduced it to being a mere matter of personal taste.
And no one has a duty to have the same taste as someone else! If the religio
were tied into a comprehensive worldview, it would have a much better chance
of commanding assent. But as a matter of taste or ritual for for it's own
sake, it cannot be anything but an option for those who desire it.

This brings me to what you said about the nature of creeds. I cannot
disagree more that creeds are all of equal value. When two or more
affirmations contradict one another, Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction,
and common sense, tell us that they cannot all be right. They might all be
wrong, but they cannot all be right. I say without conceit that my creed is
superior to the creed of the flat earthers, the fundamentalist protestants,
the wiccans, the pantheists, etc. If I did not believe it to be true {or at
least reasoanbly close to being an accurate description of the way things
are} I would not have it as my creed! Since not all creeds can be of equal
worth, naturally we all believe ours to be truer than the ones we do NOT
hold! This is not arrogance, nor conceit, nor bigotry as some fluffy headed
relativistic New Age twinkies would have us believe. It is a simple
recognition of the Law of Non Contradiction.

Do we in fact recieve our creeds from passion? No doubt many people do, but
not all. I have reasons that I think are suffienct to justify the statements
I made in my brief credo. I did not post the reasoning behnd each statement,
because the post would have been unbearably long. But there are reasons
behind it. The reasons are not strong enough to convince me with the same
certainty I have that there are now 25 dollars in my wallet, or that 2+2=4.
But they do give me confidence to assert that my credo is more likely than
contradictory credos.

Gaius Lupinius Festus


Subject:	[novaroma] New list for Italiae Provincia
From:	primusfabius@--------
Date:	Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:01:38 -0000


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Few Thoughts on Religion and Divination
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:53:26 +0100


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1019
From:	wicachu@--------
Date:	Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:39:38 EDT

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Greetings all. Mamma Brit checking back in to say hello and ruffle a few
feathers. Something caught my bleary eyes this morning :

When two or more
affirmations contradict one another, Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction,
and common sense, tell us that they cannot all be right.

< furrows brow> Mayhap my confusion arises because of one simple thing...
I stand before the Universe and the power that made it, and I know myself to
be at once very small, and yet capable of producing immense change. Things
in nature often seem to contradict each other, when they in fact do not. The
sky is blue but air is clear. The Milky Way contains stars that are at
least 14 billion years old. This fact along with the 8 - 12 billion year
estimated age of the universe provides us with a fundamental contradiction:
the universe may be younger than the stars it contains. Doesn't seem to work
does it? But that is because there is something more to the facts.
Something deeper that produces the effects seen.
The universe must agree with itself! Says who? Me? You? It would be
nice for our peace of mind wouldnt it? Maybe it will, if one does but look
deeply enough...
Imagine you are a child in a sandbox. Lean forward and draw a long
squiggly line that loops and whirls around everywhere. There is logic to
it... you just created it. You started and stopped somewhere because you had
a reason. Even being bored is a reason. Now take your other hand and draw
two small boxes somewhere on that loopy background. Look carefully at what
is in your boxes. Now compare it to what is in the other box and to what is
outside the box. Looks different, doesn't it? Of course it does. People
like to draw little boxes around their thoughts and say : This is as far as I
go. What is in this box is true, and anything that looks different is
untrue. Now lets call what is in one box Faith, what is in the other Reason.
Neither one gives you the wholeTruth.. that loopy stuff that Reason and
Faith are made of. They only give you one part of it, one window into it.
Rationality can only go so for. Faith can only go so far. Are they wrong,
one or the other.. both of them? Why no! They are just part of the story,
not the end. The Divine is much bigger, much more complicatedly simple than
those small things.
Anyhoo.. that is Mamma Brits take on it. Send the flames in private
please. Play nice on the list please :) I never mean to attack, Merely
propose ideas for consideration.
My thanks to all of those who sent me well wishes for the next few months
ahead... you are far too kind and I thank you so.

Iona Sententiosa Britaega


Subject:	[novaroma] SCA Household of "Rome"
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Fri, 22 Sep 2000 09:39:55 EDT

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I wanted to let our SCA folks know that a new household within the SCA is
being formed under the Name of ROME. (No affiliation with us at this time.
It is being established by a SCA person who is into Roman Combat, etc.)

It is to be a non-alligned household (pardon my improper use of terms here I
am not too up do date on SCA stuff) They will be setting up "Roman" camps,
participating in Heavy Combat as Roman Soldiers, etc.

If anyone is interested in this drop me a line and I will pass along the
info I have.

This looks to be a great way for NR cives to get togehter in Garb, and meet.
We were looking at Pennsic, and wondering would we be out of context or
infringing, well with this we might not be.

Just a thought

Please any comments etc, lets here them.

Vale

ATR

Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum,
Legio VI of the Northern Army
& Cornicularius,Sodalitas Militarium et Nova Roma

"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"

www.geocities.com/legio_vi

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Varus Film Project
From:	"Tim O'Neill" <scatha@-------->
Date:	Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:56:08 -0000


Subject:	[novaroma] Of Mice and Men (was Mus Maiorum, was Re: Reason and Gods)
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Fri, 22 Sep 2000 21:05:41 +0100