Subject:	[novaroma] Caesar and the universe.
From:	Lykaion1@--------
Date:	Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:16:54 EDT

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Salvete,

Here are some thoughts I wanted to share. Imagine that the universe is
everlasting, having no beginning, and no end.

To begin, let's take an event from Roman history. In January in 49 BCE
, Julius Caesar crossed the Runicon with his army, beginning the Civil Wars
against the Pompeian forces. Before this could happen, other events had to
occur. Caesar had to be a governor. Before this, he had to be a Consul.
Before that, a Praetor, and before that a Senator and Quaestor, etc. And
before these things could happen, Caesar needed to be born. His parents had
to be born, and their parents....and back and back we go. Before his
remotest ancestors could be born, human life had to evolve on earth. And
before that, life had to evolve.....

Now, if the universe had no beginning, if the universe had always existed and
thus time has no beginning, but stretches back into the infinite past, then
there is no first event in the chain which makes up the temporal universe,
and there is no first event in the chain of events leading to Caesar's famous
crossing of the Rubicon. An infinite number of events must have occured
before Caesar could make his historic crossing.

This is strange, because if an infinity of events had to occur before Caesar
could cross the Rubicon, he never would have crossed, and in fact could never
cross, and we would not be reading about it in the histories. But, since the
crossing DID occur, all events that must have occured before Caesar could
cross the Rubicon must have occured So...that which can have no end---an
infinite sequence of events making up the total history of the universe priot
to Caesar's crossing---has seemingly come to an end. The moment Caesar
crossed, an absolute limit was set upon the sequence of events that had to
occur before he could cross. But an infinity of events, an infinite past,
can have no limit.

It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the number of events which make
up the history of the universe is NOT infinite after all, but finite instead.
And if the sequence of events id finite, then the universe had a
beginning---a beginning which marks the first in a series of events making up
the total history of the universe, whether that event was the 'Big Bang' or
not.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Caesar and the universe.
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Sep 2000 20:20:57 -0700

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Or as in the other side...to quote from the Matrix, "Would you have broken
the vase if I wouldnt have mentioned it?" or something along those lines! :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: <Lykaion1@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->; <religioromana@-------->
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:16 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Caesar and the universe.


>
> Salvete,
>
> Here are some thoughts I wanted to share. Imagine that the universe
is
> everlasting, having no beginning, and no end.
>
> To begin, let's take an event from Roman history. In January in 49
BCE
> , Julius Caesar crossed the Runicon with his army, beginning the Civil
Wars
> against the Pompeian forces. Before this could happen, other events had
to
> occur. Caesar had to be a governor. Before this, he had to be a Consul.
> Before that, a Praetor, and before that a Senator and Quaestor, etc. And
> before these things could happen, Caesar needed to be born. His parents
had
> to be born, and their parents....and back and back we go. Before his
> remotest ancestors could be born, human life had to evolve on earth. And
> before that, life had to evolve.....
>
> Now, if the universe had no beginning, if the universe had always existed
and
> thus time has no beginning, but stretches back into the infinite past,
then
> there is no first event in the chain which makes up the temporal universe,
> and there is no first event in the chain of events leading to Caesar's
famous
> crossing of the Rubicon. An infinite number of events must have occured
> before Caesar could make his historic crossing.
>
> This is strange, because if an infinity of events had to occur before
Caesar
> could cross the Rubicon, he never would have crossed, and in fact could
never
> cross, and we would not be reading about it in the histories. But, since
the
> crossing DID occur, all events that must have occured before Caesar could
> cross the Rubicon must have occured So...that which can have no end---an
> infinite sequence of events making up the total history of the universe
priot
> to Caesar's crossing---has seemingly come to an end. The moment Caesar
> crossed, an absolute limit was set upon the sequence of events that had to
> occur before he could cross. But an infinity of events, an infinite past,
> can have no limit.
>
> It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the number of events which
make
> up the history of the universe is NOT infinite after all, but finite
instead.
> And if the sequence of events id finite, then the universe had a
> beginning---a beginning which marks the first in a series of events making
up
> the total history of the universe, whether that event was the 'Big Bang'
or
> not.
>
>
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ==> Imperium Atlantium
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:32:38 -0700 (PDT)

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--- George Cruickshank <gene@--------> wrote:

> The following may be of some interest to this list's
> members:
>
> www.atlantium.org
>
> Comments, feedback and participation is encouraged.
>
> Georgivs II, Imp, PIP

To His Imperial Majesty Georgivs II:

Thank you for posting us about the Empire of
Atlantium.

I must ask, if you will permit me, the reason for your
post. Are you seeking diplomatic recognition?
Alliance? Cross-membership?

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Half of the world's misery comes from ignorance. The other half comes from intelligence." - Bonar Thompson

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ==> Imperium Atlantium
From:	"George Cruickshank" <gene@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:21:30 +1000

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Greetings Jeffrey, and thank you for your response.

As an aspirant state, Atlantium seeks the active participation and
involvement of any who share our long-term vision of the world as a a
politically unified, secular, participatory, liberal social democratic
constitutional monarchy.

Citizens who possess the following specific skills are particularly needed
at present, but all levels of participation (or non-participation) are
welcome:

* Specialists in constitutional, corporate and criminal law, political
theory and ethics
* Specialists in electoral and parliamentary procedure
* Specialists in vexillological and heraldic practise
* Specialists in numismatic and philatelic practise
* Latin translators (Latin, along with English are our official languages)
* Web developers

It is important to note that unlike Nova Roma we are not an historical
simulation; we take our aims pretty seriously, whilst accepting the
realities imposed upon us by present circumstance.

We have of course borrowed Roman sybolism to a certain degree (a good way of
divorcing ourselves from the legion of adolescent pseudo-feudal
"microstates" cluttering up the web, if nothing else!), but overall we think
what we are setting out to do is fairly unique.

Having said that I believe there are probably some definite logical
synergies betweem Nova Roma and Atlantium, which we would be very happy to
expolre.

I'd be happy to answer any other queries you or the other members of this
list may have, and I apologise in advance if my off-topic intrusion is
unwelcome.

Regards,

Georgivs II
Imperator et Primus Inter Pares
www.atlantium.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Smith" <jsmithcsa@-------->
To: "*NovaRoma" <novaroma@-------->
Cc: "George Cruickshank" <gene@-------->
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] ==> Imperium Atlantium


> --- George Cruickshank <gene@--------> wrote:
>
> > The following may be of some interest to this list's
> > members:
> >
> > www.atlantium.org
> >
> > Comments, feedback and participation is encouraged.
> >
> > Georgivs II, Imp, PIP
>
> To His Imperial Majesty Georgivs II:
>
> Thank you for posting us about the Empire of
> Atlantium.
>
> I must ask, if you will permit me, the reason for your
> post. Are you seeking diplomatic recognition?
> Alliance? Cross-membership?
>
> Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
>
> =====
> LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
> HQ USAREUR/7A
> CMR 420, BOX 2839
> APO AE 09063-2839
>
> "Half of the world's misery comes from ignorance. The other half comes
from intelligence." - Bonar Thompson
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Proposed new Roman Days West - Saturnalia 2000
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:50:44 -0600

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Salvete Omnes:

While thinking how to make up for the cancelled Roman Days
West, we have put together a proposed event: Saturnalia
2000.

This event would bring civies from anywhere in Nova Roma to
play in extravagant Las Vegas for a fun-filled weekend in
keeping with the spirit of Saturnalia. One custom of
Saturnalia is gaming and gambling!!

Proposed dates are Friday to Sunday, December 15-17 [dates
negotiable]. Festivities and accomodations are at Caesar's
Palace!!!

Saturnalia begins on December 17. As part of the
festivities, we plan a Saturnalia ritual.

Attached are a proposed Itinerary, sample budget, and a
Saturnalia FAQ.

If you are interested in participating in Saturnalia 2000,
email me.

Also, we are senstive to the possibility that December isn't
a good time for getaways. Therefore, if you would
DEFINATELY be interested in a Las Vegas event like we've
described but can't make a DECEMBER event.....please let me
know ASAP......if numbers talk, we may change the date for
the trip.

Valete,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Lucius Cornelius Sulla



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Saturnalia 2000 - for the attachment impaired
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 01:29:06 -0600

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Salvete Omnes:

While thinking how to make up for the cancelled Roman Days
West, we have put together a proposed event: Saturnalia
2000.

This event would bring civies from anywhere in Nova Roma to
play in extravagant Las Vegas for a fun-filled weekend in
keeping with the spirit of Saturnalia. One custom of
Saturnalia is gaming and gambling!!

Proposed dates are Friday to Sunday, December 15-17 [dates
negotiable]. Festivities and accomodations are at Caesar's
Palace!!!

Saturnalia begins on December 17. As part of the
festivities, we plan a Saturnalia ritual.

Attached are a proposed Itinerary, sample budget, and a
Saturnalia FAQ.

If you are interested in participating in Saturnalia 2000,
email me.

Also, we are senstive to the possibility that December isn't

a good time for getaways. Therefore, if you would
DEFINATELY be interested in a Las Vegas event like we've
described but can't make a DECEMBER event.....please let me
know ASAP......if numbers talk, we may change the date for
the trip.

Valete,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Lucius Cornelius Sulla


Saturnalia 2000 – Proposed Itinerary
December 15-17, 2000

Friday, December 15
Prior to 5 p.m Arrival in Las Vegas and check into Rome
(Caesar's Palace)

4:30-6 p.m. "Sign-in"; meet and greet in the Terrazza Lounge
over cocktails
6:30 p.m. Transport (walk) to Gaul (the new Paris casino)
7 p.m. Dinner in Gaul (Le Village Buffet at the Paris)
~$15/person
8:30 p.m. [Solo Time] OPTIONAL: Stay in Gaul (the Paris)
for a few hours at one of the hot new Vegas casinos
EVENING OPTION ONE – HANGING OUT
10 p.m. Music and drinks at the Palace Court in Rome
(Caesar’s Palace)
EVENING OPTION TWO – MUSIC SHOW in ROME
10 p.m. Catch the late headliner show at the Circus Maximus
Varies, $25-$50/person
EVENING OPTION THREE – THEATER SHOW at an ITALIAN VILLA
9 p.m. Walk to the Bellagio (directly south)
10 p.m. Cirque du Soliel show, "O" $90/person

Saturday, December 16
9 a.m. Meet for breakfast and conversation (Caesar’s Palace
buffet breakfast) ~$10/person
10 a.m. Nova Roma citizen’s meeting
10:45 p.m. Saturnalia Ritual – opening Saturnalia
11 a.m. – 3 p.m. [Solo Time] Gambling, Christmas shopping in
the Forum Shops, or cocktails and conversation
AFTERNOON IN EGYPT
3:15 p.m. Meet by Capitoline She-Wolf for taxi to Egypt
(Luxor) ~$2/person
4 p.m. [Solo Time] Choice of IMAX shows at Luxor or gambling
in the casino
EVENING OPTION ONE – EGYPTIAN NIGHTS
7 p.m. Dinner at Pharoah’s Feast ~$15/person
8:45 p.m. Return to Rome by taxi (Caesar’s Palace)
~$2/person
9:30 p.m. Drinks and Dancing at Cleopatra’s Barge (floating
nightclub at Caesar’s Palace)
EVENING OPTION TWO – MAGIC AND MAYHEM in ROME
6:15 p.m. Converge to return to Rome by taxi (Caesar’s
Palace) ~$2/person
7 p.m. Attend Caesar's Magical Empire: Magic show and
dinner [setting spectacularly recreates the Roman Forum;
food and magic reportedly average] $75.50/person
9:30 p.m. Drinks and Dancing at Cleopatra’s Barge (floating
nightclub at Caesar’s Palace)

Sunday, December 17
9 a.m. Meet for breakfast, conversation, and farewells for
Sunday departures Collectively set schedule for the day,
depending on Sunday departures ~$10/person
Afternoon Hangers-on: Christmas shopping in the Forum
Shops, gambling, touring the Strip, visiting a local museum,
or chatting
Evening Dinner together for Hangers-on ~$15/person

Monday, December 18
Departures
8 a.m. – 5 p.m. OPTIONAL DAY TRIP to Red Rocks Canyon
(organized, private tour, includes transportation and picnic
lunch) $110/person

SATURNALIA 2000 – ESTIMATED INDIVIDUAL BUDGET

See each section below for a breakdown of budget figures:

Travel: Variable
Room: $190 – $280 for 2 nights depending on room choice
($270 – $420/ 3 nights)
Meals: $50+
Misc.: $50-100 (drinks, IMAX tickets, nightclub cover
charges, taxi fare, etc.)

Optional Events:
$25-50 for Circus Maximus show, if selected
$75.50 for Caesar’s Magical Empire dinner and magic show,
if selected
$90 for Cirque du Soliel show, if selected
$110 for day trip to Red Rocks Canyon (Monday), if
selected

ROOM
For the Saturnalia 2000 season, room rates at Ceasar's
Palace look to be as follows:

$86/night Deluxe (1 King or 2 Double beds)
$106/night Deluxe Triple (2 Double beds)

$116/night Palace Tower (1 King or 2 Queen beds)
$140/night Palace Tower Triple (2 Queen beds)

Palace Tower is newly renovated and supposed to be much
nicer. No Saturday arrivals and no one night stays.

MEALS

Meals planned into the itinerary have been planned to keep
cost at a minimum. Locations have been chosen that say
meals are $15 or less per person (except for the Ceasar’s
Magical Empire option).

MISC.
It’s impossible to calculate all the variables for fees.
However, I gauged what I’d want in my own pocket to cover
any cocktails I’d buy, movie tickets, nightclub covers,
taxi, etc. It’s fair to say, you’ll want some pocket
change. Probably this figure is a minimum.

OPTIONAL EVENTS:
These are entertainments events scheduled on the itinerary
that attendees could choose from. Depending on turnout and
expressed interest, we may just do one of the events
proposed for each night, or may have different people doing
different events. About the optional events:

The Circus Maximus showroom at Caesar’s Palace brings in big
name performers. Too early to know who or how much.

“O” at the Bellagio is Cirque du Soliel’s aquatic
celebration of life, love and death. “From the moment the
lights go down on a Cirque du Soleil performance, it’s hard
to know where reality ends and illusion begins. Like dreams,
Cirque productions are surreal and unpredictable; a strange
and magic brew of Houdini, art, and athleticism.”
http://www.cirquedusoleil.com/en/piste/o.html

Caesar’s Magical Empire is an evening of dining and magical
entertainment. Guests are able to have fine food, a personal
magician, watch both close-up magic and larger scale stage
magic, and experience several other illusions; all in a
wonderful Romanesque setting. Dinner & show $75.50 including
tax and tip. Seatting begins at 4:30pm 1/2 price for ages 5
to 10 years old. No children under 5 years old. Dark Sundays
and Mondays. Free tours 11:00am-3:30pm. With tour you
receive 10.00 off discount coupon for early seatings(4:30pm
to 5:20pm)
Nov 28 - Jan 06 The Majestix in Sultan's Palace
Dec 12 - Jan 06 Bob Jardine / Scott Alexander in Secret
Pagoda

The Red Rocks Canyon tour is run by a private tour company.
They provide an SUV and a geologist or other natural
scientist is your tour guide. Includes a 1 mile nature walk
at 3,700 feet. Approx. 6 hours hotel to hotel, including a
picnic lunch. Year round.
- Red Rock Canyon Conservation Area is the dramatic western
backdrop to the Las Vegas Valley. Explore the visual
playground of panoramic vistas, tapestries of reds, maroons
and whites. Then get up close to the bold sandstone
buttresses to feel geologic history at your fingertips. Can
you imagine this area once being under the sea? Discover
pine trees now growing on the desert floor and waterfalls in
the arid desert! Watch for the protected desert tortoise! A
special permit affords us access to the gargantuan Jurassic
outcroppings to examine delicate micro-ecosystems and to
visit signs made by our ancient ancestors.

Saturnalia FAQ

Timing of Saturnalia
- varied during the course of Roman history.
- began as feast days for Saturn (December 17) and Ops
(December 19).
- with Julian calendar, Saturnalia on December 17 & 18;
Opalia on December 19 & 20.
- during the empire, extended to a week (December 17-23);
longer with other holidays.

Associated holiday festivals
Consualia, end of sowing season festival (December 15).
Dies Juvenalis, Coming of Age for Young Men
(mid-December).
Feast of Sol Invicta, the Unconquered Sun, set in 274 A.
D. (December 25).
Brumalia, Winter Solstice on pre-Julian calendar
(December 25).
Christmas (December 25), Christians move Christ's
birthday to this date in 336 A.D.
Janus Day and Beginning of Calendar Year (January 1),
set in 153 B.C.; again in 45 B.C.
Compitalia, blessing of the fields rural festival
(January 3-5).

Legacies of Saturnalia in contemporary holiday celebrations
Time Off from Work -- government, schools, businesses
closed; multiple days off.
Exhuberant Play -- masquerades, gaming, gambling, mock
king, jokes, partying, letting loose.
Dancing in the New Solar Year -- music and dancing.
Religious Rituals -- joining in spiritual community to
honor the Divine.
Honored Figures -- Santa and Father Time -- Saturn; Holy
Mother -- Ops.
Sacred Flames -- candles lit and new fires kindled to
represent new Solar year.
Greens -- Holly given with gifts, homes decorated with
wreaths and garlands.
Peace -- dispensing of punishments suspended and courts
closed; wars ceased.
Relaxing with Family and Friends -- renewing bonds,
sharing celebration.
Gift Giving -- dolls to children, candles to friends;
fruit symbols representing increase.
Feasting -- sharing food with family and friends;
on-going eating and drinking.
Helping Less Fortunate -- class distinctions suspended;
food for all; masters waiting on servants.
Paper Hats -- soft hats (pilei) worn at Saturnalia
banquets to signify informality.

Deities honored around Winter Solstice time
Saturn - God of Agriculture; merged with the Greek
Cronos.
Ops - Goddes of Plenty; Mother Earth; partner to Saturn
and Consus.
Sol Invicta - Sun God; connected with the Persian
Mithra, honored by Roman soldiers.
Consus - God of Storebin of Harvested Grain.
Juventas - Goddess of Young Manhood; related to Greek
Hebe of Youthful Beauty.
Janus - God of Beginnings and Gates; Solar God of
Daybreak; Creator God.

Celebrations included
merry-making
rest and relaxation
connections with family and friends
celebrating beginning of Solar year
prayers for protection of Winter crops
honoring Deities

Subject:	[novaroma] Re:Caesar and the Universe
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:15:48 -0000

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Salve,

I like your philosophy! However, is there not the possibility that
the universe has always existed, albeit without time! That way, there
would indeed have to be something to start off the chain of events
that made Caesar cross the Rubicon, but this starting event was itself
occuring ofter the universe had come into being. If this was so,
then surely this non-temporal universe would have to have existed
forever, but without a chain of events which preceded it, because it
existed forever. Thus the starting event would have to surely be
caused by another cause, itself uncaused. And thus we arrive at a
conclusion much like yours, butlonger winded! :-)

Alternatively, perhaps the whole universe came into being
lastTuesday, but perhaps memories are an intrinsic part of the
universe, and so they came into being along with it. In which
case,there would still have tobe a cause to cause these memories and
the universe to spring into being, but in fact Caesar might not have
crossed the Rubicon! Perhaps we justhave the memories and books that
say he did! Of course, this means that the universe would have had to
be created. If this is so, then my whole argument is a possiblity.

Salve, Britannicus.

Salvete,
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.

Subject:	[novaroma] Corrections to Albium Gentium
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:29:01 -0700 (PDT)

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Salvete:

After four attempts to do this off-line, which have
not yielded changes, I am now asking on the main list
for corrections to the Albium Gentium.

As reads:
Aetia
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
America Medioccidentalis Superior
1
No.

Should read:
Aetia
Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
Germania
1
Yes

L A Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Half of the world's misery comes from ignorance. The other half comes from intelligence." - Bonar Thompson

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Corrections to Albium Gentium
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 07:58:26 -0500

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25 Sept 2000

Salve LAD

I too had the same trouble, it took me six attempts before it was done. I
had to send in this email before it was done.

----- Original Message -----
From: Quintus Sertorius
To: censors@--------
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 6:06 AM
Subject: Correction of email address

20 Sept 2000

Salve

I would like to, for the sixth time, ask for a correction to my email in the
Album Gentium. I was assured by Censor Sulla, one month ago, that this would
take place at the beginning of Sept and it has not. I have requested this
many times now and I understand that there is much work to do, but I thought
that with the new changes to the web site that this type of correction would
be easy. Yet still I wait. I am sure there is a perfectly good reason for
the delay it is only that I do not know what it is. I know of two people
that have tried to reach me using the wrong email address from the web site
and have had to search for the right one no the Nova Roma e-group. I am
sure that if Censor Sulla's email was incorrect that it would be fixed a lot
quicker!

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
quintus-sertorius@--------

QS:
After this email Censor Merullus promptly sent me this.


----- Original Message -----
From: C Marius Merullus
To: Quintus Sertorius
Cc: censors@--------
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: Correction of email address


Salve

It is done.

Vale

CMM

QS:
One of our Censors it appears was not going to correct my email adderess
while the other happly did it. I guess I am not one of Sulla's favorites! It
is not good that a Censor delays corrections to those he does not like!

Vale

QS


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Smith" <JSmithCSA@-------->
To: "*NovaRoma" <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 5:29 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Corrections to Albium Gentium


>
> Salvete:
>
> After four attempts to do this off-line, which have
> not yielded changes, I am now asking on the main list
> for corrections to the Albium Gentium.
>
> As reads:
> Aetia
> Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
> America Medioccidentalis Superior
> 1
> No.
>
> Should read:
> Aetia
> Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
> Germania
> 1
> Yes
>
> L A Dalmaticus
>
> =====
> LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
> HQ USAREUR/7A
> CMR 420, BOX 2839
> APO AE 09063-2839
>
> "Half of the world's misery comes from ignorance. The other half comes
from intelligence." - Bonar Thompson
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Caesar and the universe.
From:	primusfabius@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:46:29 -0000

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> Now, if the universe had no beginning, if the universe had always
existed and
> thus time has no beginning, but stretches back into the infinite
past, then
> there is no first event in the chain which makes up the temporal
universe,
> and there is no first event in the chain of events leading to
Caesar's famous
> crossing of the Rubicon. An infinite number of events must have
occured
> before Caesar could make his historic crossing.

> This is strange, because if an infinity of events had to occur
before Caesar
> could cross the Rubicon, he never would have crossed, and in fact
could never
> cross, and we would not be reading about it in the histories. But,
since the
> crossing DID occur, all events that must have occured before Caesar
could
> cross the Rubicon must have occured So...that which can have no end-
--an
> infinite sequence of events making up the total history of the
universe priot
> to Caesar's crossing---has seemingly come to an end. The moment
Caesar
> crossed, an absolute limit was set upon the sequence of events that
had to
> occur before he could cross. But an infinity of events, an infinite
past,
> can have no limit.


One first consideration. The simple fact that one admits that the
universe
had always existed doesn't imply as a consequence that it
"stretches
back
into the infinite past". Infinite is a kind of strange concept,
not
necessarily
connected to an unimaginable wideness. In terms of mathematics you can
have infinite points between two given points. This has generated the
paradox of Achilles and the turtle: Achilles runs after the turtle;
he steps
on, while the turtle only gains a few centimeters. Achilles should
easily
reach the turtle (and he will do), but this does not explain how can
he fill
the gap of infinitive points between him and the previous position of
the
turtle plus one (the one that the turtle covered while Achilles was
moving
to the turtle's previous position). The solution is that, at a
certain scale, you
can ignore the existence of the infinite (in terms of wideness as
well as in
terms of smallness).
To come back to your considerations, you are acting like Achilles in
trying
to move backwards in the proceeding of events and, by implying that
it must me a prior event in any case, you think that this must lead
to an
absolute first event. Which is not exact in scientific terms.
One think that amazes me even more of this is the application of the
modern theories of Physics to your problem. If you go back to the big
bang (and its occurrence has been demonstrated), you discover that it
make no sense, in Physics, to speak about time before that moment: at
that stage time simply did not exist for it is physically impossible
its
existence (see S. Hawking, A brief history of time).

> It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the number of events
which make
> up the history of the universe is NOT infinite after all, but
finite instead.
> And if the sequence of events id finite, then the universe had a
> beginning---a beginning which marks the first in a series of events
making up
> the total history of the universe, whether that event was the 'Big
Bang' or
> not.

My second consideration is of different nature. It seems to me that
your
line of thinking do reflect too much the Christian philosophy which
dominated in the western culture for the last two millenniums. As a
matter
of fact, the concept of linear history made by a very defined
beginning (the
creation of the world), a very defined ending (the end of days and the
judgement) and a number of ordered happenings in between (the most
remarkable of which is the coming of Jesus), all of them being one
the
cause of the other and reaching their climax in the last day,
corresponds
to the vision of the reality of the Christian Church in which the
existence
of a single man and the History itself only can have a meaning if
related to
the final moment of the end of time (and connected triumph of God over
evil).
As far as I know, the Romans did not have this kind of idea: their
history
had a well defined beginning and, even if a certain kind of
convictions
they had about what happened before (included the creation of the
world),
it was something in the sphere of their mythology and nothing in any
way
related to the everyday life (much more practical).
Romans, in the reality, did not care much about what happened before
Rome and, given the fact that Rome was felt for ever lasting, did not
even care about the end of times!
It is only with the spread of the Ellenic culture in Rome that the
idea of linear
history enters the Roman (and western) culture (and, what a
coincidence,
this happens by the end of the Republic and the beginning of the
Empire,
exactly when the Christian doctrine begins to be widely spread over
the Roman
world).
Personally, I appreciate much more the sense of freedom that one can
experience when not sure that everything has to end than the promise
of something after such end (which, by the way, none has never
reported existent!).
Vale

Primus Fabius

Subject:	[novaroma] Gladiator to be released as boxed set.
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:31:58 EDT

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Salvete! For your information
GLADIATOR' SET FOR RELEASE ON 11/21
GLADIATOR will be released as a double-disc DVD on
November 21st, with over four hours of bonus material.
The first disc will feature DOLBY DIGITAL and DTS
versions of the epic DREAMWORKS film, and a second
disc will offer the film with an audio commentary track
from director Ridley Scott, 11 deleted scenes, and a
seven-minute montage of never-before-seen footage
compiled by editor Pietro Scalia.
GLADIATOR also becomes available to rent on video on 11/21.
Valete
QFM

Subject:	[novaroma] Quid Pro Quo (was Imperium Atlantium)
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:58:12 GMT

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Nicolaus Moravius Georgio Secundo salutem

I have some queries arising from your reply to L. Aetius Dalmaticus.

What has given you the impression that Nova Roma is an "historical
simulation" and that we do not(unlike Atlantium), "take our aims pretty
seriously, whilst accepting the realities imposed upon us by present
circumstance"?

Without prejudice to any future exploration of "logical synergies", why do
you consider that your long term vision of a global monarchy (even a
constitutional one) is at all attractive to us, since we are a republic?

Do you not consider that your request for assistance would be more likely to
be regarded favourably if you were to indicate some reciprocal benefit for
Nova Roma?

Bene vale,

N. Moravius Vado

Civis NovaRomanus
Parus inter Populares.


>As an aspirant state, Atlantium seeks the active participation and
>involvement of any who share our long-term vision of the world as a a
>politically unified, secular, participatory, liberal social democratic
>constitutional monarchy.
>
>Citizens who possess the following specific skills are particularly needed
>at present, but all levels of participation (or non-participation) are
>welcome:
>
>* Specialists in constitutional, corporate and criminal law, political
>theory and ethics
>* Specialists in electoral and parliamentary procedure
>* Specialists in vexillological and heraldic practise
>* Specialists in numismatic and philatelic practise
>* Latin translators (Latin, along with English are our official languages)
>* Web developers
>
>It is important to note that unlike Nova Roma we are not an historical
>simulation; we take our aims pretty seriously, whilst accepting the
>realities imposed upon us by present circumstance.
>
>We have of course borrowed Roman sybolism to a certain degree (a good way
>of
>divorcing ourselves from the legion of adolescent pseudo-feudal
>"microstates" cluttering up the web, if nothing else!), but overall we
>think
>what we are setting out to do is fairly unique.
>
>Having said that I believe there are probably some definite logical
>synergies betweem Nova Roma and Atlantium, which we would be very happy to
>expolre.
>
>I'd be happy to answer any other queries you or the other members of this
>list may have, and I apologise in advance if my off-topic intrusion is
>unwelcome.
>
>Regards,
>
>Georgivs II
>Imperator et Primus Inter Pares
>www.atlantium.org

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Caesar and the Universe
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:57:37 GMT

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Salutem

My thanks to Festus for what promises to be yet another stimulating topic.

Festus' hypothesis reminds me inversely of one offered by the philosopher
Xeno, who proved logically that, according to linear time- and
space-measurement, an arrow shot from a bow could never reach its mark (in
fact, it could never part company with the bowstring).

The notion was that the distance (and therefore time) between the archer and
the target was finite (say 200 yards), yet the component number of
subdivided distances (and time periods taken to traverse them) was infinte:
a paradox.

It was a pleasantry, of course, designed to show that our perception of time
and space is incomplete, and that our conclusions are therefore inaccurate.
(Xeno deliberately took no account of accelerating velocity when he
postulated his never-ending arrow flight).

Just as we normally perceive time, space and velocity to be constant in
their relative values in an arbitrary way, so assumptions of an end and a
beginning to our universe are equally arbitrary, At which grain of sand
does the matrix bisecting the wobbly line in Britaega's sandbox begin or
end?

The physicist Boyle (I think it was) postulated a spatially finite but
temporally infinite universe. Imagine a sphere, which we'll call 'the'
universe (it exists within something rather bigger, which we'll call the
'multiverse'). Inside 'the' universe, it seems infinite because of an
inevitable temperature variation between the sphere's edge and its centre.
The relative particle sizes and distances increase or decrease between these
two points across its diameter, because its density is not constant. The
cooler area will be contracting, the hotter, expanding. A living microcosmic
being (even a god in that universe) could never traverse even half of the
sphere from inside it, as it would continually find (if it lived long
enough) that the particle density/temperature would proportionally increase
or decrease velocity, and thus 'local' (virtual) time would stretch or
shrink accordingly.

Meanwhile, outside this universe, the sphere would appears finite to a
macrocosmic being, despite its being of infinite size and longevity inside.
To the microcosmic beings inside it, its atoms are sun- and star-systems,
yet this whole simultaneously contracting and expanding infinite universe is
possibly only a tiny gallstone in the bladder of the mouse in the pocket
of...

Bene valete,

Vado.

>Salvete,
>
> Here are some thoughts I wanted to share. Imagine that the universe
>is
>everlasting, having no beginning, and no end.
>
> To begin, let's take an event from Roman history. In January in 49
>BCE
>, Julius Caesar crossed the Runicon with his army, beginning the Civil Wars
>against the Pompeian forces. Before this could happen, other events had
>to
>occur. Caesar had to be a governor. Before this, he had to be a Consul.
>Before that, a Praetor, and before that a Senator and Quaestor, etc. And
>before these things could happen, Caesar needed to be born. His parents
>had
>to be born, and their parents....and back and back we go. Before his
>remotest ancestors could be born, human life had to evolve on earth. And
>before that, life had to evolve.....
>
>Now, if the universe had no beginning, if the universe had always existed
>and
>thus time has no beginning, but stretches back into the infinite past, then
>there is no first event in the chain which makes up the temporal universe,
>and there is no first event in the chain of events leading to Caesar's
>famous
>crossing of the Rubicon. An infinite number of events must have occured
>before Caesar could make his historic crossing.
>
>This is strange, because if an infinity of events had to occur before
>Caesar
>could cross the Rubicon, he never would have crossed, and in fact could
>never
>cross, and we would not be reading about it in the histories. But, since
>the
>crossing DID occur, all events that must have occured before Caesar could
>cross the Rubicon must have occured So...that which can have no end---an
>infinite sequence of events making up the total history of the universe
>priot
>to Caesar's crossing---has seemingly come to an end. The moment Caesar
>crossed, an absolute limit was set upon the sequence of events that had to
>occur before he could cross. But an infinity of events, an infinite past,
>can have no limit.
>
>It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the number of events which
>make
>up the history of the universe is NOT infinite after all, but finite
>instead.
> And if the sequence of events id finite, then the universe had a
>beginning---a beginning which marks the first in a series of events making
>up
>the total history of the universe, whether that event was the 'Big Bang' or
>not.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Caesar and the universe.
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:47:14 +0200

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Salvete Omnes et Feste,

Festus' theory makes perfect sense, assuming history is a one-way linear
system. Imho I think it's more like a spiral or a circle. All events cause
each other to be - the end of this universe could spark another universe,
and so on. There's no "beginning of beginnings", since, as Primus Fabius
pointed out, physically seen "time" hasn't always existed, as neither did
space. What was before that is guesswork. Eternity? Or nothingness? We
cannot know this, and philosophing on matters that escape the physical laws
of this universe are thereby a little irrelevant. Nevertheless, suppose
there was a "beginning of beginnings", Feste, what was *before* that
beginning? This type of logic needs multiple dimensions if you want to
maintain it :-). But I think in this case Ockham's Razor tells us that
occurances and happenings would be much better to explain supposing
time-space is a fourdimensional circle, or even better, a spiral that
connects itself to a bigger spiral, and so on, ad infinitum. Everything is
in relation to another thing. Everything is cause and effect at the same
time. Is anyone familiar with the Net of Indra? It's something along those
lines.

Valete et vale,
Sextus Apollonius Draco

Subject:	[novaroma] Saturnalia 2000
From:	"D. Flamen Solus" <dennis@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:11:26 -0700

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Salve:

While thinking how to make up for the canceled Roman Days
West, we have put together a proposed event: Saturnalia
2000. {Also, for your convience are 3 Word Documents}

This event would bring civies from anywhere in Nova Roma to
play in extravagant Las Vegas for a fun filled weekend in
keeping with the spirit of Saturnalia. One custom of
Saturnalia is gaming and gambling!!

Proposed dates are Friday to Sunday, December 15-17 [dates
negotiable]. Festivities and accommodations are at Caesar's
Palace!!!

Saturnalia begins on December 17. As part of the
festivities, we plan a Saturnalia ritual.

Attached are a proposed Itinerary, sample budget, and a
Saturnalia FAQ.

If you are interested in participating in Saturnalia 2000,
email me. alexious@--------

Also, we are sensitive to the possibility that December isn't
a good time for getaways. Therefore, if you would
DEFINITELY be interested in a Las Vegas event like we've
described but can't make a DECEMBER event.....please let me
know ASAP......if numbers talk, we may change the date for
the trip.
Valete,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Saturnalia 2000 ? Proposed Itinerary
December 15-17, 2000

Friday, December 15
Prior to 5 p.m Arrival in Las Vegas and check into Rome
(Caesar's Palace)

4:30-6 p.m. "Sign-in"; meet and greet in the Terrazza Lounge
over cocktails
6:30 p.m. Transport (walk) to Gaul (the new Paris casino)
7 p.m. Dinner in Gaul (Le Village Buffet at the Paris)
~$15/person
8:30 p.m. [Solo Time] OPTIONAL: Stay in Gaul (the Paris)
for a few hours at one of the hot new Vegas casinos
EVENING OPTION ONE ? HANGING OUT
10 p.m. Music and drinks at the Palace Court in Rome
(Caesar’s Palace)
EVENING OPTION TWO ? MUSIC SHOW in ROME
10 p.m. Catch the late headliner show at the Circus Maximus
Varies, $25-$50/person
EVENING OPTION THREE ? THEATER SHOW at an ITALIAN VILLA
9 p.m. Walk to the Bellagio (directly south)
10 p.m. Cirque du Soliel show, "O" $90/person

Saturday, December 16
9 a.m. Meet for breakfast and conversation (Caesar’s Palace
buffet breakfast) ~$10/person
10 a.m. Nova Roma citizen’s meeting
10:45 p.m. Saturnalia Ritual ? opening Saturnalia
11 a.m. ? 3 p.m. [Solo Time] Gambling, Christmas shopping in
the Forum Shops, or cocktails and conversation
AFTERNOON IN EGYPT
3:15 p.m. Meet by Capitoline She-Wolf for taxi to Egypt
(Luxor) ~$2/person
4 p.m. [Solo Time] Choice of IMAX shows at Luxor or gambling
in the casino
EVENING OPTION ONE ? EGYPTIAN NIGHTS
7 p.m. Dinner at Pharoah’s Feast ~$15/person
8:45 p.m. Return to Rome by taxi (Caesar’s Palace)
~$2/person
9:30 p.m. Drinks and Dancing at Cleopatra’s Barge (floating
nightclub at Caesar’s Palace)
EVENING OPTION TWO ? MAGIC AND MAYHEM in ROME
6:15 p.m. Converge to return to Rome by taxi (Caesar’s
Palace) ~$2/person
7 p.m. Attend Caesar's Magical Empire: Magic show and
dinner [setting spectacularly recreates the Roman Forum;
food and magic reportedly average] $75.50/person
9:30 p.m. Drinks and Dancing at Cleopatra’s Barge (floating
nightclub at Caesar’s Palace)

Sunday, December 17
9 a.m. Meet for breakfast, conversation, and farewells for
Sunday departures Collectively set schedule for the day,
depending on Sunday departures ~$10/person
Afternoon Hangers-on: Christmas shopping in the Forum
Shops, gambling, touring the Strip, visiting a local museum,
or chatting
Evening Dinner together for Hangers-on ~$15/person

Monday, December 18
Departures
8 a.m. ? 5 p.m. OPTIONAL DAY TRIP to Red Rocks Canyon
(organized, private tour, includes transportation and picnic
lunch) $110/person

SATURNALIA 2000 ? ESTIMATED INDIVIDUAL BUDGET

See each section below for a breakdown of budget figures:

Travel: Variable
Room: $190 ? $280 for 2 nights depending on room choice
($270 ? $420/ 3 nights)
Meals: $50+
Misc.: $50-100 (drinks, IMAX tickets, nightclub cover
charges, taxi fare, etc.)

Optional Events:
$25-50 for Circus Maximus show, if selected
$75.50 for Caesar’s Magical Empire dinner and magic show,
if selected
$90 for Cirque du Soliel show, if selected
$110 for day trip to Red Rocks Canyon (Monday), if
selected

ROOM
For the Saturnalia 2000 season, room rates at Ceasar's
Palace look to be as follows:

$86/night Deluxe (1 King or 2 Double beds)
$106/night Deluxe Triple (2 Double beds)

$116/night Palace Tower (1 King or 2 Queen beds)
$140/night Palace Tower Triple (2 Queen beds)

Palace Tower is newly renovated and supposed to be much
nicer. No Saturday arrivals and no one night stays.

MEALS
Meals planned into the itinerary have been planned to keep
cost at a minimum. Locations have been chosen that say
meals are $15 or less per person (except for the Ceasar’s
Magical Empire option).

MISC.
It’s impossible to calculate all the variables for fees.
However, I gauged what I’d want in my own pocket to cover
any cocktails I’d buy, movie tickets, nightclub covers,
taxi, etc. It’s fair to say, you’ll want some pocket
change. Probably this figure is a minimum.

OPTIONAL EVENTS:
These are entertainments events scheduled on the itinerary
that attendees could choose from. Depending on turnout and
expressed interest, we may just do one of the events
proposed for each night, or may have different people doing
different events. About the optional events:

The Circus Maximus showroom at Caesar’s Palace brings in big
name performers. Too early to know who or how much.

“O” at the Bellagio is Cirque du Soliel’s aquatic
celebration of life, love and death. “From the moment the
lights go down on a Cirque du Soleil performance, it’s hard
to know where reality ends and illusion begins. Like dreams,
Cirque productions are surreal and unpredictable; a strange
and magic brew of Houdini, art, and athleticism.”
http://www.cirquedusoleil.com/en/piste/o.html

Caesar’s Magical Empire is an evening of dining and magical
entertainment. Guests are able to have fine food, a personal
magician, watch both close-up magic and larger scale stage
magic, and experience several other illusions; all in a
wonderful Romanesque setting. Dinner & show $75.50 including
tax and tip. Seatting begins at 4:30pm 1/2 price for ages 5
to 10 years old. No children under 5 years old. Dark Sundays
and Mondays. Free tours 11:00am-3:30pm. With tour you
receive 10.00 off discount coupon for early seatings(4:30pm
to 5:20pm)
Nov 28 - Jan 06 The Majestix in Sultan's Palace
Dec 12 - Jan 06 Bob Jardine / Scott Alexander in Secret
Pagoda

The Red Rocks Canyon tour is run by a private tour company.
They provide an SUV and a geologist or other natural
scientist is your tour guide. Includes a 1 mile nature walk
at 3,700 feet. Approx. 6 hours hotel to hotel, including a
picnic lunch. Year round.
- Red Rock Canyon Conservation Area is the dramatic western
backdrop to the Las Vegas Valley. Explore the visual
playground of panoramic vistas, tapestries of reds, maroons
and whites. Then get up close to the bold sandstone
buttresses to feel geologic history at your fingertips. Can
you imagine this area once being under the sea? Discover
pine trees now growing on the desert floor and waterfalls in
the arid desert! Watch for the protected desert tortoise! A
special permit affords us access to the gargantuan Jurassic
outcroppings to examine delicate micro-ecosystems and to
visit signs made by our ancient ancestors.

Saturnalia FAQ

Timing of Saturnalia
- varied during the course of Roman history.
- began as feast days for Saturn (December 17) and Ops
(December 19).
- with Julian calendar, Saturnalia on December 17 & 18;
Opalia on December 19 & 20.
- during the empire, extended to a week (December 17-23);
longer with other holidays.

Associated holiday festivals
Consualia, end of sowing season festival (December 15).
Dies Juvenalis, Coming of Age for Young Men
(mid-December).
Feast of Sol Invicta, the Unconquered Sun, set in 274 A.
D. (December 25).
Brumalia, Winter Solstice on pre-Julian calendar
(December 25).
Christmas (December 25), Christians move Christ's
birthday to this date in 336 A.D.
Janus Day and Beginning of Calendar Year (January 1),
set in 153 B.C.; again in 45 B.C.
Compitalia, blessing of the fields rural festival
(January 3-5).

Legacies of Saturnalia in contemporary holiday celebrations
Time Off from Work -- government, schools, businesses
closed; multiple days off.
Exhuberant Play -- masquerades, gaming, gambling, mock
king, jokes, partying, letting loose.
Dancing in the New Solar Year -- music and dancing.
Religious Rituals -- joining in spiritual community to
honor the Divine.
Honored Figures -- Santa and Father Time -- Saturn; Holy
Mother -- Ops.
Sacred Flames -- candles lit and new fires kindled to
represent new Solar year.
Greens -- Holly given with gifts, homes decorated with
wreaths and garlands.
Peace -- dispensing of punishments suspended and courts
closed; wars ceased.
Relaxing with Family and Friends -- renewing bonds,
sharing celebration.
Gift Giving -- dolls to children, candles to friends;
fruit symbols representing increase.
Feasting -- sharing food with family and friends;
on-going eating and drinking.
Helping Less Fortunate -- class distinctions suspended;
food for all; masters waiting on servants.
Paper Hats -- soft hats (pilei) worn at Saturnalia
banquets to signify informality.

Deities honored around Winter Solstice time
Saturn - God of Agriculture; merged with the Greek
Cronos.
Ops - Goddes of Plenty; Mother Earth; partner to Saturn
and Consus.
Sol Invicta - Sun God; connected with the Persian
Mithra, honored by Roman soldiers.
Consus - God of Storebin of Harvested Grain.
Juventas - Goddess of Young Manhood; related to Greek
Hebe of Youthful Beauty.
Janus - God of Beginnings and Gates; Solar God of
Daybreak; Creator God.

Celebrations included
merry-making
rest and relaxation
connections with family and friends
celebrating beginning of Solar year
prayers for protection of Winter crops
honoring Deities
{D.Flamen Solus, Legatus}





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Fw: Corrections to Albium Gentium
From:	"C Marius Merullus" <c_marius_m@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:42:55 -0400

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Salve

Please send me your address in Germany.

Vale

C Marius Merullus
Censor Suffectus

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
To: *NovaRoma <novaroma@-------->
Date: Monday, September 25, 2000 6:23 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Corrections to Albium Gentium


>
>Salvete:
>
>After four attempts to do this off-line, which have
>not yielded changes, I am now asking on the main list
>for corrections to the Albium Gentium.
>
>As reads:
>Aetia
>Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
>America Medioccidentalis Superior
>1
>No.
>
>Should read:
>Aetia
>Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
>Germania
>1
>Yes
>
>L A Dalmaticus
>
>=====
>LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
>HQ USAREUR/7A
>CMR 420, BOX 2839
>APO AE 09063-2839
>
>"Half of the world's misery comes from ignorance. The other half comes
from intelligence." - Bonar Thompson
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Caesar and the universe.
From:	labienus@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:29:05 US/Central

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Salvete Feste et alii

Thank you for providing an interesting and pleasant diversion, Feste. Of
course, we're not exactly covering new ground here.

> This is strange, because if an infinity of events had to occur before Caesar
> could cross the Rubicon, he never would have crossed, and in fact could never
> cross, and we would not be reading about it in the histories.

Why is this? How does an infinity of previous events make it impossible for
Caesar to cross the Rubicon? Logically, it would be more likely to mean that
he has done so an infinite number of times.

> But, since the
> crossing DID occur, all events that must have occured before Caesar could
> cross the Rubicon must have occured  So...that which can have no end---an
> infinite sequence of events making up the total history of the universe priot
> to Caesar's crossing---has seemingly come to an end.  The moment Caesar
> crossed, an absolute limit was set upon the sequence of events that had to
> occur before he could cross.  But an infinity of events, an infinite past,
> can have no limit.

No. An artificial limit was placed by you, the observer, at one point of an
infinite chain. Even if we accept that Caesar's crossing is some absolute end
to all the infinite events in the universe, the fact that the chain ends in one
spot does not remove the possibility that there is no other previous end. By
finding a single end upon a line, one has simply defined a ray, which is still
infinite. One must have two ends to define a finite line segment.

And, arbitrarily picking points upon a line and erroneously declaring, "This is
the end of the line," will not make it any less infinite. Only if all events
in the universe came to a crashing halt at the moment Caesar crossed the
Rubicon can you say that that moment was one end of the chain of time.

Now, you could argue with more force that the moment in which you find yourself
at any given time, rather than some historical event, is the end of all time.
In doing so, though, you take a step toward solipsism, by denying that there is
a chain of future events that exist but are invisible to you purely because you
cannot perceive them. Why not pursue that logic to its end and say that all
things came into being upon your birth, and will cease to be upon your death?

> It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the number of events which make
> up the history of the universe is NOT infinite after all, but finite instead.

Actually, going with your implied logic that all events must have a causal
event (being born, becoming praetor, etc.), then it is difficult to avoid the
conclusion that the number of events which make up the history MUST be
infinite. Otherwise, there must be some primal causeless event.

Should such an event occur, nothing precludes its occurring again. Indeed, in
an infinitely large universe, such events should occur an infinite number of
times. Does this reduce the universe to nothing more than chaos, or is the
infinity of impossible and unpredictable events smaller than the infinity of
predictabile ones?

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	[novaroma] My introduction as a new citizen
From:	" Gaius Fabius Lucterios" <f.lucterios@-------->
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:43:47 -0000

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Salvete Omnes,

I'm happy to introduce myself a new citizen of Nova Roma. My name is
now Gaius Fabius Maximus. I'm 31 years old and live in Lugdunumn in
the french macronation. This is not a provincia yet but i hope it
will
be a new one soon...

I'm interested for more than ten years in the history of Rome, Gauls
(specially the south east and the allobroges civitas) and gaulish
celts.

Valete

Gaius Fabius Lucterios

Subject:	[novaroma] Romans in Phoenix, Feb 2001
From:	contexa@--------
Date:	Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:34:01 -0000

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Greetings

Legio IX Hispana is setting up a period Roman encampment at the SCA's
Estrella War, Feb 14-19, 2001.

If you or anyone you know are interested in participating please
contact Hibernicus at legioix@--------

Salvete!

Gaius Valerius Tacitus Hibernicus
Centurio
Legio IX Hispana
+
Sean "Sheridan Richards