| Subject: |
[novaroma] New citizen |
| From: |
"Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer" <tiberius@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:34:54 -0400 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
I am a new citizen of Nova Roma and just wanted to say hello. I live in the
Macronation of the United States of America, in the Washington, D.C. area.
I am 34 years old, computer geek by profession. I have been fascinated by
all things Roman, as well as my own Celtic heritage, for as long as I can
remember. I have known about the Old Gods since I was first able to read,
but was not able to break out of "traditional" brainwashing until my college
days.
I will soon have a web page dedicated to Nova Roma... I'll post the url once
the site has gone live :)
Vale,
Tiberius Hibernius Galdius Mortifer
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Website changes |
| From: |
Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:42:47 -0500 (CDT) |
|
Salvete Omnia,
I have made several changes to the site (particularly, the various
Alba) this past weekend.
Simplified URLs now exist:
Album Civium : http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/cives
Album Gentium : http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/gentes
Album Senatorium: http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/senators
a gens page : http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/gens?gensid=8
a citizen page : http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view?id=5
A database table now exists to hold information about magistrates,
past and present.
Current magistrate positions (including propraetor) are shown on each
citizen page. Senior magistrates are marked as such in the Album Senatorium.
Consulars (past Consuls) are marked "CONSULARIS" on their individual pages,
their gens pages, and the Album Civium and Album Senatorium main pages.
The Album Senatorium and the Gens pages have been reformatted to be more
visually balanced. This is most evident for those Gentes who have submitted
multiple pictures.
A magistrate editor has been added to the Censors' tools, as well as a
menu displaying all the functions available.
Valete, Octavius.
---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Pagans Find Fellow Beavers Online |
| From: |
JSA <varromurena@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:46:43 -0700 (PDT) |
|
> Pagans Find Fellow Believers Online
>
> .c The Associated Press
>
> By RICK CALLAHAN
>
> INDIANAPOLIS (AP) - Amid the swirling cigarette
> smoke in a downtown coffeehouse, the ancient
> pantheon of pagan deities comes alive, conjured up
> over coffee in the conversation at two adjoining
> tables.
>
> The Indiana Asatru Council, a group of modern pagans
> who worship old Norse deities and a smattering of
> other gods, has gathered for its weekly meeting.
>
> Between drags off cigarettes, the talk meanders from
> Thor - the lightning-wielding god of thunder - to
> the mysteries of the universe and then to the
> Internet, the medium that's helping this tiny
> religious community to grow.
>
> Wiccans, Druids, shamans, goddess-worshippers and
> people who revere members of the ancient lineup of
> Roman, Greek, Egyptian and Celtic deities are
> showing up online and in public more often these
> days. Modeling their emergence after the gay pride
> movement, many pagans say they are ``coming out of
> the broom closet'' - a wry reference to the witches
> among them.
>
> ``We're everywhere. We could be your neighbor or
> co-worker and you wouldn't even know it,'' said
> James McCoy of Kokomo, Ind., a computer software
> designer who spends hours online each day with
> fellow pagans.
>
> Not long ago, most pagans preferred to keep their
> beliefs secret, fearful of the public's mistaken
> belief that they are devil-worshippers. There were
> no coffeehouse meetings for them.
>
> Brenda Brasher, an assistant professor of religion
> at Mount Union College in Alliance, Ohio, says the
> cyber-realm has allowed isolated believers to
> connect with like-minded individuals as never
> before. It also provides a way to wage an
> inexpensive public relations campaign to burnish
> their beliefs' reputations.
>
> ``The Internet has given these minority religious
> movements a public forum to say, `We don't do evil
> things, we don't cast spells and we are
> environmentally minded,''' Brasher said.
>
> Going online also allows pagans to foster Pagan
> Pride events, such as last Friday's autumnal
> equinox. At such public gatherings, pagans gather in
> the full regalia of their particular groups,
> frequently eager to engage the general public.
>
> Suzanne and Duke Egbert, an Indianapolis couple who
> serve as high priestess and high priest of a coven
> of about three dozen people, run an Internet site
> that helps plan pride gatherings nationwide.
>
> The Egberts, both 32, started the Web site in 1998
> and that year they organized about 20 pride events.
> Last year, that rose to about 55; this year about 70
> Pagan Pride events are slated in Canada and 36
> states.
>
> That includes Pagan Pride Day on Saturday in
> Indianapolis' Broad Ripple Park that's expected to
> attract hundreds. Admission is a can of
> nonperishable food that will be donated to a local
> food pantry.
>
> The Egberts, who have two children, were both raised
> in traditional religions, she a Roman Catholic and
> he an Episcopalian.
>
> By their early 20s both had found Christianity
> lacking in many areas, particularly tolerance, as
> their intrigue grew in pagans' reverence for nature
> and emphasis on the free will of the individual.
>
> ``Most religions will tell you that their beliefs
> are right and everyone else is wrong,'' said Duke
> Egbert, who goes by the pagan name Dagonet. ``We
> believe we are right for ourselves. My religious
> path is exactly right for me. Other people's
> religious paths may be right for them. I can't judge
> that.''
>
> On the Net:
>
> Pagan Education Network:
> http://www.bloomington.in.us/(tilde)pen
>
> Web Pagans Network: http://web.pagans.net
>
> The Witches Voice: http://www.witchvox.com
>
> AP-NY-09-25-00 0240EDT
>
> Copyright 2000 The Associated Press. The
> information contained in the AP news report may not
> be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise
> distributed without prior written authority of The
> Associated Press.
>
>
>
> </FONT>Announcement: America Online has added
> Reuters newswires to News Profiles. To add Reuters
> articles to your daily news delivery, go to KW: <A
> HREF="aol://5862:146">News Profiles</A> and click on
> "Modify Your News Profiles." Then click "Edit" and
> add Reuters from the list on the left.
>
> To edit your profile, go to keyword <A
> HREF="aol://1722:NewsProfiles">NewsProfiles</A>.
> For all of today's news, go to keyword <A
> HREF="aol://1722:News">News</A>.
>
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re:Caesar and the Universe |
| From: |
Lykaion1@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:49:02 EDT |
|
In a message dated 9/25/00 5:16:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- writes:
<< Alternatively, perhaps the whole universe came into being
lastTuesday, but perhaps memories are an intrinsic part of the
universe, and so they came into being along with it. In which
case,there would still have tobe a cause to cause these memories and
the universe to spring into being, but in fact Caesar might not have
crossed the Rubicon! Perhaps we justhave the memories and books that
say he did! Of course, this means that the universe would have had to
be created. If this is so, then my whole argument is a possiblity.
>>
Salve!
I am going to disregard the above conjecture. Not out of any disrespect
for you or for close-mindedness. But because:
a} There is absolutely no evidence or even reason to suppose that is so, and
b} It represents an extreme skepticism, in which all discourse and hope of
attaining knowledge and understanding is made impossible.
The purpose of science and philosophy is to gain knowledge and understanding
wherever possible. Endless and unsubstantiated "what ifs" like the above
paragraph represent neither philosophy nor science. What if our universe and
all in it are just figments of your imagination in a fitful dream, brought on
by indigestion? Is there any reason to seriously entertain such notions?
And would such speculations without evidence or reason bring us any closer to
the truth?
I think you meant it humorously!
<<However, is there not the possibility that the universe has always existed,
albeit without time?>>
I do not think so. Time is a property of the universe. In order to have a
timeless universe, the universe would have to stop completely. No motion, no
orbits, not even particle movement. Entropy would also stop. The universe
and all that is in it would have to completely and totally freeze in
position. And there is no reason, scientific or or logical, to assume the
universe ever stopped. Am I understanding you correctly? If not, please let
me know!
<<That way, there would indeed have to be something to start off the chain of
events
that made Caesar cross the Rubicon, but this starting event was itself
occuring ofter the universe had come into being>>
Why after? And how long after? The first event in the chain would logically
be the beginning of the universe itself. For without that, none of these
other temporal events could occur.
<<That way, there
would indeed have to be something to start off the chain of events
that made Caesar cross the Rubicon, but this starting event was itself
occuring ofter the universe had come into being. If this was so,
then surely this non-temporal universe would have to have existed
forever, but without a chain of events which preceded it, because it
existed forever. Thus the starting event would have to surely be
caused by another cause, itself uncaused. And thus we arrive at a
conclusion much like yours, butlonger winded! :-)>>
But no one has suggested a temporal chain of events preceding the begining of
the universe, because these events are happenings within the universe. So we
are not going to end up with an infinite regression of first causes. The
question then is a choice between two alternatives. One, the finite universe
simply happened, with no cause at all, or the universe was caused to happen.
GLF
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Caesar and the Universe, pt2 |
| From: |
Lykaion1@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:49:08 EDT |
|
Salvete,
I think that in beginning to answer the various responses my post has
elicited, it would be good to first briefly summarize the case that the
universe in fact has a beginning, and is not infinite in duration. Labienus,
from reading your post to me, I thik you may have misunderstood the point I
was trying to make. I could have expressed it better, as several of the
emails I have had since posting show me! Here is an attempt at a restatement.
1. The already mentioned impossibility of traversing an actual infinite.
I'll use an analogy I used in email correspondence. Suppose Jupiter gave you
eternal life, and assigned you the task of sharpening an infinite number of
pencils. As a reward, he would give you a Pepsi. No matter how long you
tried, you would never earn that Pepsi, for you could never reach the end of
the pencils needing sharpening. No matter how many you sharpened at a time,
and no matter how long you sharpen, you will only have a finite number of
pencils sharpened, and not the infinite set.
The Pepsi represents a future goal or event. If you have an infinite series
of intermediate events which must happen first, that goal could never be
reached. It works the same in reverse. If an event {such as Caesar crossing
the Rubicon} happened, then the past must not be infinite, for Caesar could
never have crossed if an infinite number of events had to happen prior to
the crossing. Just as you could never have the Pepsi if you had to sharpen
an infinite amount of pencils, so Caesar could never cross the river if there
was an infinite series of events that had to precede the crossing, in this
case, the infinite history of the allegedly beginingless universe.
2. The expansion of the universe. If we could watch the expansion of the
universe as a movie, playing the tape in reverse, we would see it appear to
contract in upon itself into a singularity, a single mathematical point. The
singularity is called by physicist Paul Davies the "ultimate unknowable in
science". With no physical laws as we know them applying to the singularity,
it is in principle impossible to "get inside" and see how things behave. It
could also possibly be described as nothingness. But it does show the
universe as we know it was not the eternal celestial machine envisioned by
the ancients.
3. Entropy. A law of physics is the second law of themodynamics, which
states that the total energy in any given system goes from a maximum state of
order to a maximum state of disorder. Put differently, the energy available
to do work is decreasing and is becoming uniformly distributed. Order may be
increased locally through an external energy input {eg. the Sun's energy
allowing the developing complexity of life on earth} but only at the cost of
an increase in entropy elsewhere. The universe as a whole while expanding is
also increasing in entropy irreversibly. It is heading toward a state of
maximum disorder and uniform energy distribution. The sun will eventually
burn up as all other localized sources of energy will as well.
The universe has not reached this state of maximum entropy yet. If it did,
we would not be here talking about it! But the fact it has not means the
universe has not existed forever. If the universe had no beginning, but was
infinite in it's past, it would have reached a maximum state of entropy long
ago. In fact, it would have reached it a literally infinite long time ago!
These three facts, the universal expansion, entropy, and the impossibility of
traversing an actual infinite, together point to a beginning to the universe.
I am glad Sextus Apollonius Draco agrees that, "Festus' theory makes perfect
sense, assuming history is a one-way linear system."
Primus Fabius responds, <<The simple fact that one admits that the universe
had always existed doesn't imply as a consequence that it 'stretches back
into the infinite past'.>> But what else can it imply, Fabius? Saying that
the universe has always existed is another way of saying it has no beginning,
for if it did have a beginning, it could not have always existed. Is this
not a contradiction?
Fabius then invokes Zeno's Paradox in what I guess is an attempt to show that
the universe has always existed. A runner is running from point A to point
B. But to getr there, he must first run half that distance. To get to the
halfway mark, he must first run half that distance. So in order to run from
one point to any point, the runner must first traverse an infinite number of
points in between, and this is impossible. Zeno used this puzzle to show
that motion and change are illusion. Fabius then says, <<The solution is
that, at a certain scale, you can ignore the existence of the infinite (in
terms of wideness as well as in terms of smallness)>>
But is this really the answer to Zeno? We all know that motion does in fact
occur, so rather than 'ignore the existence of the infinite', we can do
better by distinguishing between an ACTUAL INFINITE and a POTENTIAL INFINITE.
First, a potential infinite increases it's number through time by adding new
members to the series. Second, a potential infinite is infinite in potential
only. It is actually finite. A potential infinite can increase forever, but
will never become an actual infinite. Adding one more member, no matter how
long this done will only result in a larger finite set. And third, since a
potential infinite is always finite, at no time will the finite set formed
from the members of the series equal one of it's proper subsets.
So, the answer to Zeno is this. Zeno would be correct if the runner had to
traverse an actual infinite in order to get from one point to another. But
the infinite of his puzzle is a potential infinite only. No matter how often
one divides the line between point A and point B into midpoints, one will
have only a finite number of points to traverse. If one had to traverse an
actual infinite to get from A to B, motion would indeed be impossible.
Similarly, if one had to traverse an actual infinite to come to the present
moment, that could not be done either. But the past is only finite.
Fabius then moves to a different matter: << My second consideration is of
different nature. It seems to me that your line of thinking do reflect too
much the Christian philosophy which dominated in the western culture for the
last two millenniums.>>
I don't know why you brought this up Fabius. I could simply respond that
your line of thinking reflects too much of the ancient classical philosophy
which dominated western culture in the millennium before Christianity! But
this would be pointless. I do not judge ideas by who happens to agree with
them, or by what group holds similar views. I believe it best to evaluate an
idea on it's own merits. I would therefore make the same point you made if I
assumed Christians {and the Jews who came before them} were somehow incapable
of coming up with a good idea or of posessing possible truth.
I do not make this assumption. And if it is true that the ancient Romans
were not much interested in what came before Rome, well, all that would tell
us is that the Romans curiosity did not go very far.
Sextus Apollonius Draco contributes with some views of his own: <<Festus'
theory makes perfect sense, assuming history is a one-way linear system. Imho
I think it's more like a spiral or a circle. All events cause each other to
be - the end of this universe could spark another universe, and so on.>>
Draco, would you have any empirical evidence and logical reasoning to support
the idea of such a universe. If "all events cause each other to be", then
can you justify how one event such as the sacking of Rome by the Celts
influenced an event like the extinction of the dinosaurs?
<<There's no "beginning of beginnings", since, as Primus Fabius pointed out,
physically seen "time" hasn't always existed, as neither did space. What was
before that is guesswork. Eternity? Or nothingness? We cannot know this, and
philosophing on matters that escape the physical laws of this universe are
thereby a little irrelevant. Nevertheless, suppose there was a "beginning of
beginnings", Feste, what was *before* that beginning?>>
Draco, if time and space have not always existed, and I agree they have not,
then on what grounds does Fabius and you assert the universe always existed?
What is your evidence and your justification? But to answer your question
about what as "before" the beginning..... If you mean by "before" a temporal
cause and effect relationship, such as we see in physical phenomena, then
none. Fabius referred us to Hawking's book A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME. And
Hawking gives as an answer that if the universe had a beginning, we could
imagine God as creator. He writes, "So long as the universe had a beginning,
we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely
self-contained, having no boundry or edge, it would have neither beginning
nor end: It would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?" This post
is already long enough that a discussion of Hawking's idea cannot fit here.
But suffice it to say that he can only do this by introducing a physically
unintelligible and metaphysically incoherent doctrine of imaginary time.
<<But I think in this case Ockham's Razor tells us that occurances and
happenings would be much better to explain supposing time-space is a
fourdimensional circle, or even better, a spiral that connects itself to a
bigger spiral, and so on, ad infinitum.>>
Draco, the point of Ockham's Razor is to AVOID positing things 'ad infinitum'
as explanation, like these infinite spirals.
Vado also contributed with some points.
<<Festus' hypothesis reminds me inversely of one offered by the philosopher
Xeno, who proved logically that, according to linear time- and
space-measurement, an arrow shot from a bow could never reach its mark (in
fact, it could never part company with the bowstring).>>
Salve Vado,
You have no doubt already seen my answer to Zeno above, in my reply to
Fabius. The paradox is solved by the distinguishing between an actual
infinite and a potential infinite.
<<The physicist Boyle (I think it was) postulated a spatially finite but
temporally infinite universe.>>
I am not familiar with Boyle. {In fact, I am not a physics buff!} but could
you possibly be thinking of Hawking? {see above} The description of the
ideas you present look like his "no boundry" universe.
GLF
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Caesar and the Universe, pt2 |
| From: |
"Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer" <tiberius@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 04:00:34 -0400 |
|
Salve,
I'm fairly new, so forgive me if I am crossing boundaries... but what I've
seen of this discussion reminds me of something I experienced while I was
living in Richmond. My two roommates were set on following a shamanistic
path, trying to wrench secrets out of the Universe and bring them back.
They constantly argued over things like such as the limits, or limitlessness
of the Universe... always asking "what is beyond that"?
This also lead into to discussions of the "Ultimate Truth". One day, they
actually asked me for my input on these ideas.
What I put forth was this... we, as human beings, in human bodies, can not
obtain the answers to these questions and still remain human. It's like the
differing wavelengths of various types of energy. As humans, we operate at
a particular wavelength. The "answers" to these questions exist at a much
more extreme wavelength. If we were to actually tap into the spectrum, and
obtain that knowledge, we would no longer exist as human beings but would
have become something else entirely (not that that would be bad thing
*grin*)
This does not mean that the questions are not worth pursuing. We may not
gain that particular knowledge in the effort, but we will definitely gain
*some* form of knowledge.
*grin* Each morning I fully expected to wake up and find my roommates
gibbering incoherently in a corner.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Caesar and the Universe |
| From: |
marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:00:39 -0000 |
|
Salve Festus!
Yes I did mean my memories theory humorously. However,
my comment on the timeless universe was not. The time you mention
is simply time as humans see it. Why would everything stop in a
timeless universe? Could not a timeless universe be one with
infinite time? Much like priceless. A priceless object is not worth
nothing, but everything. Thus a timeless universe cuold be one which
had infinite time going farther and farther back. in this case,
there would be no events in that time, and so it would be much as you
said, but for a different reason. The very reason there is time in
this universe, is because there is a chronological series of events
that require time!
Salve,
Britannicus.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Caesar and the Universe |
| From: |
marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:00:38 -0000 |
|
Salve Tiberius!
Excellent point, I'd like to give an extra example of I may. We, as
3 dimensional people, can see the whole of a 2 or 1 dimensional
object.
Surely, in this case, a person who existed in 5 dimensions could see
all of us at one time, and a 6 dimensional person could see the whole
ofthat 5 dimensional person,and so on. This is much like what we are
trying to do. We are trying to see the whole of an object consisting
of many more dimensions than we are able to comprehend.
Sorry if this discourages anyone, but that is my view. While we can
postulate, I think eventually, our reason is the only thing that can
help us find the answer, and we can never know if human reason is in
some way at fault.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Net of Indra (wasRe: re: Caesar and the Universe) |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:08:21 GMT |
|
Salutem
Sic Draco:
>Is anyone familiar with the Net of Indra? It's something along those
>lines.
Not me. Is there a hypertext link? Should we subscribe?
;-)
Vado.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] NYTimes.com Article: In This Gladiators' Arena, Even Nero Is Bloodless |
| From: |
sdolzg@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:08:58 -0400 (EDT) |
|
This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by lucius sdolzg@--------
nova roma
This was in the times today. I thought some might be interested.
Lucius
lucius
sdolzg@--------
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In This Gladiators' Arena, Even Nero Is Bloodless
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/26/world/26ROME.html
September 26, 2000
ROME JOURNAL
By ALESSANDRA STANLEY
ROME, Sept. 25 The first lesson at the gladiator school of the
Roman Historical Society stressed discipline. "You are slaves, and
that is how I will treat you," Giuseppe Coluzzi, 32, barked at
eight adults fidgeting in short white togas.
Mr. Coluzzi, who uses the name "Korakos" in the arena, glared at
them icily. Using the Latin phrase for "Hail, teacher," he said,
"You will address me by saying `Ave, magister,' and you will never
use your swords outside the arena or without a magister present."
There were a few snickers, but mostly, the five men and three
women who signed up last week to learn how to fight to the death
listened raptly through two hours of gladiator history and combat
theory (two points for a blow to the thorax).
"I have always been a Roman history buff, but I want to relive it
more intensely," Giuseppe Pecorelli, 51, an employee of a German
multinational corporation, explained as he yearningly flexed his
wooden practice sword. "It is one thing to read histories or Roman
poetry. I want to get in touch with my warrior side."
The Roman Historical Society, which has about 100 members, was
founded in 1994, and is fittingly situated on the Via Appia Antica,
the ancient Appian Way, the road where legend has it that St. Peter
saw an apparition of Christ, and asked, "Quo vadis, Domine?"
("Whither goest thou, Lord?")
The society has a Web site (http://digilander.iol.it/sergioiac/),
a clubhouse and a yard littered with helmets, shields, pikes, nets,
catapults and other martial accessories. The members devote most of
their time to staging Roman scenes and battles for pageants and
town fairs. But the society, which had long hoped to open a
gladiator school, seized the coattails of the summer Hollywood hit,
"Gladiator," starring Russell Crowe, to begin offering classes this
month.
And these Roman history buffs, unlike many classicists in Italy
and the United States, do not quibble with the liberties
"Gladiator" screenwriters took in rewriting ancient Roman history.
"The movie was excellent," Korakos stated defiantly. The trainer,
whose day job has him printing Euro currency bills for the Bank of
Italy, said he had seen "Gladiator" four times.
But not all the new students, who paid $100 for a two-month
course, said they were drawn to gladiator school by the movie.
Training for the female "Amazon" division, Patricia Mincone, 29, a
hospital worker, said she would never be influenced by Hollywood.
"I was looking for a workout that wasn't the typical routine
tennis, aerobics, the things everybody does," she said. A tall
woman with muscular arms and legs, Ms. Mincone looked as though she
could easily stab, bludgeon or harpoon any of her fellow rookies.
But gladiator school does not sanction real bloodletting. Mostly,
students are taught how to choreograph combat, (four sequences, six
blows per sequence), both to savor simulated savagery and,
eventually, to perform gladiator combat the way it was done in the
Colosseum more than 2,000 years ago.
Unlike American Civil War buffs who rigorously re-enact the Battle
of Gettysburg or Manassas, Italians are not known for an obsession
with dressing up and reliving past wars. Italy's somewhat concise
history of modern battlefield victories could be one reason.
Another is that Italians already have a centuries-old tradition of
religious re-enactments pageants and processions in which whole
towns turn out to recreate favorite passages of the Bible or a
saint's life. Every Easter since the 17th century, the city of
Sezze, in central Italy, performs its Passion Play, a re-enactment
of agonized journey to the cross on Good Friday. As many as 700
locals take part, playing roles as diverse as Mary, Pontius Pilate
and vicious bare-chested Roman guards who whip chained Hebrew
slaves as the procession moves through the streets.
Sometimes, even religious pageants bring out the ancient brutality
of some players, however. Several years ago, a few young amateur
actors in Sezze got carried away and inadvertently flogged members
of the audience. They were banished from future parades until last
Easter, when Sezze brought its Good Friday procession to St.
Peter's in Rome for the Holy Year.
Gladiator school seems to appeal to Italians eager to rediscover
their pagan roots. "We are the descendants of the early Romans, so
we of all people should explore our past," said Lia Cinque, 44, a
homemaker who is married to Mr. Pecorelli. Sighing, she said their
24-year-old son was also a history buff, but in a spurt of filial
rebellion, had joined a group whose members dress up as Scottish
clan warriors.
Ms. Cinque explained that she herself was not interested in
gladiator training, and spent much of the lesson with her head
buried in a historical novel set in antiquity, "Neropolis" by
Hubert Monteilhet.
A little like English history buffs who blame Shakespeare for
blackening the reputation of Richard III, longtime members of the
Roman Historical Society feel that Tacitus and others grossly
misjudged Nero.
Sergio Iacomoni, 47, who took the name Nero when he was elected
president of the society, held court over the class in a
full-length tunic embroidered with gold. Regally affable with the
new recruits, he nevertheless took umbrage at the suggestion that
his imperial role model was a bloodthirsty madman. "Nero was
nowhere near Rome when the fires started," he said sternly,
referring to the legend that Nero fiddled as Rome burned.
Mr. Iacomoni noted that many historians took a more revisionist
view of Nero, but perhaps in a re-enactment of his predecessor's
megalomania, he quickly added, "Of course, I was the first, but now
there are others who also defend Nero."
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Caesar and the Universe, pt2 |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 09:42:49 -0600 |
|
Salvete, Omnes:
Tiberius Hibernius Gladius Mortifer wrote:
> *grin* Each morning I fully expected to wake up and find my roommates
> gibbering incoherently in a corner.
Mortifer, I expect you're the most sane of us.
What nobody really knows about Livia is that I have a degree in Philosophy --
specializing in Heidegger's theories of time and being. I've found this thread
amusing at times, frustrating at times.....beyond that I'll refrain from comment
on the thread.
Enough said that for Livia, it is sufficient that Caesar crossed the Rubicon
once, that Caesar crossed the Rubicon once was an experience of Caesar's being
human that was uniquely his, that none of us can ever really KNOW what it was
for Caesar to have crossed the Rubicon. What we can know out of it is that
Caesar, being human, had the experience of crossing the Rubicon, and that we,
being human, can think we know that Caesar crossed the Rubicon. We can
postulate til we are all gibbering in corners about whether there are 11
dimensions, infinite dimensions, or whether this is the only dimension we can
know or care about. It doesn't really matter whether Caesar could have crossed
the Rubicon infinite numbers of times infinite numbers of ways, because he would
be in alternate dimensions having done so, and we would be there too, so we
would have never have knowledge of Caesar crossing the Rubicon in this dimension
(or, having it, we'd be something other than ourselves qua humans, as would
Caesar, and that is a state beyond our comprehension.)
If we are trying to argue free will versus fate here (was Caesar trapped into
HAVING to cross the Rubicon), we'll never win, because what I've seen over and
over is those who argue fate vs. free will always seem to take a larger view. I
think fate and free will exist side by side, and they determine courses of
action on a much smaller scale than most people theorize about. Small things
affect the next thing that happen, small decisions affect the next thing that
happen. Could Caesar have never crossed the Rubicon? Sure, but then would he
have been Caesar?
Thanks you all. I've been waxing nostalgic for getting that PhD in Philosophy
again. Every time, something happens to remind me...oh, yeah, that's why I
chose not to do it. Livia is still Livia, being human.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] New citizen |
| From: |
"alejandro marín" <spartacvs@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:46:55 -1300 |
|
Salve!
I´m a new citizen of Nova Roma, maybe the southerner.
I live in Costa Rica, but since mi childhood I´ve been
fascinated with the ancient Rome. Also, I´d have the
opportunity to be in almost all the antiques cities of
Hispania, specially Avgvsta Emerita. Also, I feel so
related with the Roman-latin inheritance received
through Spain.
I´m happy to be a Roman of heart like all of you.
Vale
Aulus Flavius Germanicus
Tu correo gratis en MixMail http://www.mixmail.com
Inicia tu navegacion en http://www.ya.com
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Caesar and the Universe, pt2 |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:48:18 US/Central |
|
Salvete Feste et alii
> 1. The already mentioned impossibility of traversing an actual infinite.
> I'll use an analogy I used in email correspondence. Suppose Jupiter gave you
> eternal life, and assigned you the task of sharpening an infinite number of
> pencils. As a reward, he would give you a Pepsi.
This is not necessarily the same thing as the chain of events leading to
Caesar's famous crossing. In this case, there is a definite beginning and
current end to my labors; the line segment has two points. We have yet to
settle that there must have been a primal event in Caesar's case.
> The Pepsi represents a future goal or event. If you have an infinite series
> of intermediate events which must happen first, that goal could never be
> reached. It works the same in reverse. If an event {such as Caesar crossing
> the Rubicon} happened, then the past must not be infinite, for Caesar could
> never have crossed if an infinite number of events had to happen prior to
> the crossing. Just as you could never have the Pepsi if you had to sharpen
> an infinite amount of pencils, so Caesar could never cross the river if there
> was an infinite series of events that had to precede the crossing, in this
> case, the infinite history of the allegedly beginingless universe.
Let us suppose that there is a chain of events stretching infinitely far in
each direction (let's keep to two dimensions for now). And now, let us step
off that chain and view it from outside of time. Each link on that chain now
exists independent of the other links. Were we omnipotent, we could reach down
and remove any one of them without necessarily destroying any other (though we
would then break the chain).
And so, at one point Caesar crosses the Rubicon, which relies upon a primal
causeless event. However, if one causeless event occurs, why not more than
one? What stops us from positing the idea that *all* events are causeless?
The argument that this is not our experience relies upon the fact that we are
watching time from within the chain of events. We can not perceive the chain
of time from a perspective that is not directly influenced by that chain.
And so, we reach solipsism and relativism, as discussions of infinity
inevitably do.
> With no physical laws as we know them applying to the singularity,
> it is in principle impossible to "get inside" and see how things behave. It
> could also possibly be described as nothingness.
I would prefer the term emptiness (sunyata), but that is a very long discussion
for another time.
> But it does show the
> universe as we know it was not the eternal celestial machine envisioned by
> the ancients.
It only does so if we can definitely show that this singularity existed, and
that its existence was outside of time. If it was never quite reached in an
endless cycle of expansion and contraction, then the eternal machine is not
negated.
I'd love to continue with Festus' other points, and likely will do so later.
However, my lunch hour is unfortunately finite. I'll just finish with a
discussion of Zeno and potential infinities.
Fabius' solution to Zeno's paradox:
> Fabius then says, <<The solution is
> that, at a certain scale, you can ignore the existence of the infinite (in
> terms of wideness as well as in terms of smallness)>>
Festus' solution to Zeno's paradox:
> We all know that motion does in fact
> occur, so rather than 'ignore the existence of the infinite', we can do
> better by distinguishing between an ACTUAL INFINITE and a POTENTIAL INFINITE.
Labienus' solution to Zeno's paradox:
It does not matter how many division one make between the target and the
archer. The discrete distance between them is the same. If the archer is 75
feet from the target, then the arrow only needs to travel 75 feet. One, five,
or three hundred trillion divisions of this distance will make no difference.
Indeed, an infinite number of divisions does not change the distance. Nor does
it change the velocity of the arrow, which is also discrete and finite. On
this, Feste, you and I agree.
We disagree, however, in that I have no trouble admitting that the arrow
travels both a finite distance and an infinite number of points. And, I would
argue that this infinity is actual. It is truly infinite, despite being
bounded! To say that it is less infinite simply because one can always add one
more division is to deny the existence of *any* infinity, as one can *always*
add one more division to any thing.
Caesar, like Zeno's arrow, reaches his destination. Does this then mean that
there is a primal event? Probably. Does it negate the possibility of an
infinite number of events in between? No. The infinite is contained within
the finite, paradoxical as that may seem.
And, as any finite set is only part of an infinite number of possibilities--
certainly so with numbers, and quite possibly so with other things--the finite
is also contained within the infinite.
> First, a potential infinite increases it's number through time by adding new
> members to the series. Second, a potential infinite is infinite in potential
> only. It is actually finite. A potential infinite can increase forever, but
> will never become an actual infinite. Adding one more member, no matter how
> long this done will only result in a larger finite set.
Unless one makes the logical leap to the infinite, that is. Interpolate. Or,
would you prefer to determine the earth's circumference by counting each
molecule that comprises it?
Or, are you trying to reach the conclusion that the infinite is truly
impossible, relegating it to the realm of imaginary things?
> <<The physicist Boyle (I think it was) postulated a spatially finite but
> temporally infinite universe.>>
>
> I am not familiar with Boyle. {In fact, I am not a physics buff!} but could
> you possibly be thinking of Hawking? {see above} The description of the
> ideas you present look like his "no boundry" universe.
Hawking did not develop his ideas in a vacuum.
Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Replies to the infinity |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:13:03 +0200 |
|
Salve omnes et salve Feste!
For some common ease, I will keep my responses as short and on topic as
possible.
> I am glad Sextus Apollonius Draco agrees that, "Festus' theory makes
perfect sense, assuming history is a one-way linear system."
Yes, I said *assuming*. :)
> Sextus Apollonius Draco contributes with some views of his own: <<Festus'
> theory makes perfect sense, assuming history is a one-way linear system.
Imho
> I think it's more like a spiral or a circle. All events cause each other
to
> be - the end of this universe could spark another universe, and so on.>>
>
> Draco, would you have any empirical evidence and logical reasoning to
support
> the idea of such a universe. If "all events cause each other to be", then
> can you justify how one event such as the sacking of Rome by the Celts
> influenced an event like the extinction of the dinosaurs?
It did not, because the sacking of Rome happened *after* the extinction of
the dinosaurs. But I'll tell you the connection. If the dinosaurs wouldn't
have been struck by extinction, the human race wouldn't have been able to
evolve, thusly there would be no Celts to sack Rome, that also did not
exist. Everything is conncection with another thing. There is no single
empirical example of something that is without relativity to other things,
i.e. the Absolute does not exist. And I have as much (or less) evidence for
my inifite theories as you have for your finite ones. In fact, it's much
easier to assume there is no and and no beginning, because no one ever saw
the end or the beginning. You can say the Big Bang is the beginning, but
what part of the Big Bang was the *actual* beginning? Hard to tell. Reality
is like an ocean; it's the totality that counts, not the single waves
because they don't tell you anything.
> <<There's no "beginning of beginnings", since, as Primus Fabius pointed
out,
> physically seen "time" hasn't always existed, as neither did space. What
was
> before that is guesswork. Eternity? Or nothingness? We cannot know this,
and
> philosophing on matters that escape the physical laws of this universe are
> thereby a little irrelevant. Nevertheless, suppose there was a "beginning
of
> beginnings", Feste, what was *before* that beginning?>>
>
> Draco, if time and space have not always existed, and I agree they have
not,
> then on what grounds does Fabius and you assert the universe always
existed?
What we see here in the universe, as matter, waves or radiation, is
*something*. My common sense tells me *something* cannot evolve from
*nothing*. That is why I don't believe in the concept of "nothing". If that
really existed (what a paradox - nothing that would actually *exist*!), you
couldn't name it, observe it or simply be in it. Nothing would be something
were cause, effect, space and time do not apply. It's a totally wicked
concept to me :).
> What is your evidence and your justification? But to answer your
question
> about what as "before" the beginning..... If you mean by "before" a
temporal
> cause and effect relationship, such as we see in physical phenomena, then
> none. Fabius referred us to Hawking's book A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME. And
> Hawking gives as an answer that if the universe had a beginning, we could
> imagine God as creator. He writes, "So long as the universe had a
beginning,
> we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely
> self-contained, having no boundry or edge, it would have neither beginning
> nor end: It would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?" This
post
> is already long enough that a discussion of Hawking's idea cannot fit
here.
> But suffice it to say that he can only do this by introducing a physically
> unintelligible and metaphysically incoherent doctrine of imaginary time.
Well, I don't believe in God anyway so things like imaginary beings of
intelligence don't apply for my own theories. Regarding the matter of
"before the beginning", I much agree with Scribonius Curio and Hibernius
Gladius (welcome aboard, by the way), for reasons that I will elaborate
further on this reply.
> <<But I think in this case Ockham's Razor tells us that occurances and
> happenings would be much better to explain supposing time-space is a
> fourdimensional circle, or even better, a spiral that connects itself to a
> bigger spiral, and so on, ad infinitum.>>
>
> Draco, the point of Ockham's Razor is to AVOID positing things 'ad
infinitum'
> as explanation, like these infinite spirals.
Yes, you are quite correct here. I referred to the wrong terminology.
However, I think it also told that things could be put simpler, but not too
simple, either. Correct me if I am wrong, but you do not believe in the
infinite, right? If so, I take it you believe that a mathematical
two-dimensional line cannot be infinite either, although the axioms say it
is. This problem of apparant infinity can be solved by adding a third
dimension, making the line touching itself (like the equator, a
twodimensionally straight line, but bent in three dimensions). The same
problem applies for our threedimensional (as we see it) universe. As a Greek
philosopher once said (I forgot his name): "As long as you can reach out
your hands further, there's always more universe", or, if I were to touch
the edge of the universe, what would come next? It does not make sense at
all, because you and I both see *this* universe as something that is not
spatially infinite - and you can solve your threedimensional problem by
adding the next dimension, that fourth which makes everything a hypercurve
again, instead of a sphere. As for the rest, it is something the human mind
cannot contain, as we are only threedimensional in space and onedimensional
in time.
And another point that may be of some interest; if you are saying that
nothing is infinite, linguistic philosophy tells me that this also means
that "infinite is nothing". And as there is absolutely no evidence for the
existence of nothing, and neither for the absolute (which may be just the
same things!), that would mean there is none for that statement either.
Everything is finite, in a way, but the fact that everything is finite; is
infinite. In other words, probably the only constant value in the multiverse
or universe is change. Anyway, I'm drifting off here....
Thanks Feste, for bringing up this highly interesting topic!
Valete et vale,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Net of Indra (wasRe: re: Caesar and the Universe) |
| From: |
"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:15:04 +0200 |
|
Salve Vado,
>
> Sic Draco:
>
> >Is anyone familiar with the Net of Indra? It's something along those
> >lines.
>
> Not me. Is there a hypertext link? Should we subscribe?
>
> ;-)
I hope that smiley was intended ;).
Vale!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Gladiator commercial |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:04:42 -0000 |
|
This probably is irrelevant to non-U.S. citizens, but has anyone else
seen the new Nike commercial where the kid on the skateboard is being
chased by a gladiator? It's really cool - without words, they set up
the situation, show the kid making several narrow escapes, then
suggest that the gladiator is all in the kid's imagination. The last
thing you see is his full-face helmet peeking out from behind a
building...
Best thing I've seen on television in some time, sad to say.
P. Cassia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Caesar and the Universe pt 2[ |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:12:26 +0100 |
|
Salutem
Sic Festus:
Suppose Jupiter gave you
eternal life, and assigned you the task of sharpening an infinite number of
pencils. As a reward, he would give you a Pepsi. No matter how long you
tried, you would never earn that Pepsi, for you could never reach the end of
the pencils needing sharpening <AMPUTATIO>
Respondeo: Aaarghh!!! No-o-o!! I'll be a good boy! I promise!
But seriously...
FESTUS:
You have no doubt already seen my answer to Zeno above, in my reply to
Fabius. The paradox is solved by the distinguishing between an actual
infinite and a potential infinite.
VADO:
The actual infinite is hypothetical, and may not therefore exist. I would
say (looking up into the night sky) that space is potentially infinite.
FESTUS:
I am not familiar with Boyle. {In fact, I am not a physics buff!} but could
you possibly be thinking of Hawking? {see above} The description of the
ideas you present look like his "no boundry" universe.
VADO:
Actually I wasn't thinking of Hawking, because I've never read him, and so
can't really comment on that - except to say that INSIDE 'the' universe (as
Boyle had it) there is no perceptible boundary, whereas OUTSIDE it, there
is.
My point here is that, if you're inside that finite universe, you can't ever
get out, because you can't ever reach its boundaries, since they recede at
an accelerating velocity as fast as you can approach them. You would have
the impression of an expanding universe. If you headed the other way, into
the centre, you would have the impression of a contracting universe, and
you'd be decelerating into it. Either way, not getting very far.
But assuming that there is only one universe, although logically feasible
according to the laws of physics as we understand them (and how far we do
understand is, in my view, doubtful), that that is all there is, that it has
always been and always will be - Hawking's question: "What place, then, for
a creator?" can still be answered logically (for whatever logic is worth
when we're discussing religion).
Suppose that this creator is invisibly immanent in the whole universe.
Suppose that the FORM in which we perceive the universe is - in relative
terms, to this immortal, eternal, infinite being - a temporary state; as
such, it is the only form we can be aware of, so we mistake a phase of
universal existence or manifestation for the absolute nature of the universe
and of its its immanent, creative entity.
Suppose that the 'Big Bang', the explosion and expansive diversification of
material bodies from one single point or source, is just such a phase of
universal manifestation. We can conceive the possibility (even see it as a
probability) that, in time (an awful lot of time!) the whole shebang
(interesting word, that, contextually) will stop expanding and collapse back
in on itself to become that former (assumed by us, primal) single source
again - only (after another very long while) to expand again, etc., ad
infinitum (if you'll pardon the expression). In other words, "IT" is
pulsating, or oscillating.
Some years ago, the metaphysical poet Nick Ford wrote:
"I heard two learned physicists
Converse in deep debate
On whether growth or entropy
Was the universe's state:
My word, what turgid mesophists!
For all they talked about
Was speculative theology -
"God", breathing in - or out?"
Meanwhile, back inside the finite universe that is inside the mouse in the
god's pocket...
Bene valete,
Vado.
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