| Subject: |
[novaroma] Contra Cinna |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 1 Oct 2000 00:24:43 +0100 |
|
Quiritibus salutem (and I hope there are more than 3 of us interested):
Sic ego:
> > Language expresses thought, and thought is in turn conditioned by
language.
Post haec respondit L. Cornelia Cinna:
> >From my point of view, I have to object. In my humble opinion (based
> on Plato, Aristotle, Thomas et al.) Language is conditioned by and based
> on thought. It is posterior to thought (and even more imperfect), since
> it is a medium of communication exchanging thought between particular
> individuals.
Respondet Vado:
Some references from Plato, Aristotle, Thomas et al. would have been useful
at this point (who are Thomas and Al, anyway)?
As for Plato and Aristotle, I don't think either of them studied language,
any more than a fish studies water, or a kidney, dialysis. All they knew was
Greek. (Plato and Aristotle, not the fish and the kidney). I am talking from
a comparative, linguistic (philological) perspective...
(Just a minute while I stand on a few books to make myself taller):
Bronislaw Malinowski, in "The Language of Magic and Gardening" (1935) states
that: 'The false conceptionof language as a means of transfusing ideas from
the head of the speaker to that of the listener has, in my opinion, largely
vitiated the philological approach to language. The view here set forth is
not merely academic: it compels us... to correlate the study of language
with that of other activities, to interpret the meaning of each utterance
within its actual context."
John Wilson ("Philosophy", 1968) : "Anyone who invents something or
discovers something thereby makes sense, as it were, of a part of our
environment which did not make sense before: he identifies its features,
names them, maps them, turns them from meaninglessness into language. He
brings them under conscious control... any improvement of control is thus
an improvement in consciousness, and any improvement in consciousness is an
improvement in language. The process of thinking is itself linguistic or
symbolic..."
C. Wright Mills ("Power, Politics and People: Collected Essays", 1963):
"Even if we grant that 'thought' in some manner involves social processes,
the thought is, nevertheless, a lingual performance of an individual
thinker." And again: "Prior linguistic and conceptual accomplishments are
conditions for the acquisition of new habits of thought, new meanings."
Hansfried Kellner ( "Social Research" (37), 1970): "A term like 'academic
freedom', for example, means something entirely different to an elderly
humanities professor and a student radical. These differences in linguistic
usage are attached to vastly different cognitive styles."
And again: "A flat linguistic instrumentalism which conceives of the
function of language in terms of expressing experiences and thoughts - both
of which have been derived more or less independently of language - is no
longer viable in the face of modern research."
And again: "...language functions so as to filter and mediate cognitive
processes; it does not causally determine them. Aspects of reality are not
perceived in a certain way *only* because a certain linguistic system is
superimposed upon them. Rather, language affects perception in connection
with the specific problems posed for individuals or for groups by their
social action."
And again: "On the one hand... language facilitates communication because it
embodies objectified patters of social actions and schemes of
interpretations and in this way mediates the thematization of meaning, as it
were, from the 'outside'. On the other hand, language mediates thematization
also from the 'inside', i.e., via processes taking place in experience. This
form of mediation, however, is neither built up directly on the basis of
language as an 'external' sign system, nor immediately on the basis of its
usage in verbal speech, but rather on the basis of a process which has aptly
been called 'inner speech' by L. Vygotsky ["Thought and Language", 1962]. In
a rather abbreviated sense 'inner speech' can be understood as a form of
'inner conversation'..."
H. Sinclair de Swart ("Studies in Cognitive Development", 1969): "The
formation of representational thought is contemporaneous with the
acquisition of language..."
- in a nutshell, try having a sequence of thoughts without talking to
yourself. Language, as I said before, "expresses thought, and thought is in
turn conditioned by language.".
Now, what do Plato, Aristotle, Thomas and Al have to say?
>Being imperfect himself an individual may fail in the use
> of language to express thought, and consequently communication may fail
> in this particular case which is called misunderstanding.
> The possibility of misunderstanding due to a lack of perfection reveals
> the gap between individuals which can never be wholly bridged. We cannot
> read each others' thoughts, we can only anticipate or draw conclusions
> from what (s)he is saying (among other thing from which we draw our
> conclusions etc.).
I think this statement bears out Kellner's and Malinowsky's arguments (see
above), that 'language' is much more than thought mediated as speech. The
increased use of web-cams in future, for example, and of video-conferencing
with real-time e-mail, will, I reckon, substantially improve the semiotic
quality of internet communications - for instance, we shall be able to see
each others' facial, postural and gestural 'language', hear voice
intonations, etc., and modify our communications accordingly. Posture as
language affects the way we think, because of its internal associative
values as much as the external signals we receive from the postural
'language' of others with whom we are communicating.
> Well, at least it is my opinion.
> There is not only one ultimate dogma of the priority of language on one
> side or thought on the other. Those are just 2 ways to approach the same
> problem.
I was not arguing the primacy of either over or against the other. Don't you
see, though, that in interpersonal communication thought and language are
reciprocal internally as well as externally?
Vado:
> > In these latter (and in Greek, as well), verbs have future tenses. This
indicates that a future action is assumed to be definite - id est, it is
going to happen. In the Germanic languages, however, you can't do this with
future time.
Cinna:
> I am sorry, but I have to object again.
> Greek and Latin both have many different ways to express future. In
> fact, they use different forms like a potentialis or optative to express
> the speakers attitude towards that future event, either if it may happen
> or should happen or will happen, etc.
I know this. My point is, having invented an unconditional univerbal future
tense, they then went and invented modifications. Or do you think that the
modifications came before the single verb? Either way, unconditional
futurity exists in Latin and Greek as a concept, and it doesn't in the
Germanic languages. "Es wird geschehen" is closely linked to the concept of
Wyrd (the process of coming to pass, what is to become - cf. the German verb
'werden' = to become
> By the way, Plato and Aristotle do explicitely deny the predetermination
> of reality (which is seen as only a small part of the universe as a
> whole).
I thought Plato believed that the Demiurge conceived formal archetypes, as
blueprints (as it were) to which everything else that came into being had to
conform? If that isn't dterministic, what is?
Reality may have been seen as only a small part of the universe by Plato,
but not by Aristotle.
>The prime quality of reality and existence is changeability -
> real, existing things are mutabilia.
Ergo, the immortal gods do not exist? ):-D
Atoms (per Democritus) are not prima materia, nor fundamentally real?
Would Plato or Aristotle have considered the stars as mutable? (Be careful
with Aristotle, BTW - he believed that women were intrinsically inferior to
men, and he got it completely butt-about-face as to how babies are made) ;-)
> Predetermination is the basis of Stoic thought due to their idea of the
> logos as the driving impulse within the universe which is assumed to be
> completely material, so that reality turns out to be but the incarnated
> God.
If there is such a thing as complete materiality, what is incomplete
materiality? Or immateriality? I cannot subscribe to a 'spirit/matter'
duality. Either it's real, because it has substance, or it isn't real,
because it has no substance. I would allow that there is a wide spectrum of
detectable coarseness to indetectable fineness of substance, and that
therefore souls may exist even though they cannot be seen through a
microscope, or measured with a potentiometer. Gods! I think I must be
turning into a Stoic! (Hmm... therefore Vado is real...).
I reckon one day we may be able to detect thought in wave or particle form.
But if the thoughts of the Demiurge mutate (as thoughts will), then neither
the created universe, nor the thoughts themselves, are real? Have I got that
right?
>So if God is the perfect being he cannot deviate from himself; and
> that is why someone who could see the universe as a whole,
I assume you mean the bits of the universe that are real...
>would be able
> to predict the future without even the chance to go wrong.
Because 'God' is not allowed to make mistakes, mmm? I think 'God' can do
whatever It wants to. Who else could say whether the 'creation' was a
mistake? Scope of will and action defines deity to me. Thus humans are
closer to understanding divinity (and, in relative terms, closer to being
gods), than a woodlouse (which, in my experience, does not deviate from
being a woodlouse). And if your 'God' (as defined originally by Aristotle, I
think) can see the universe, and predict its future, then Aristotle has to
allow that the future is predetermined.
But a being ouside the universe (a paradox, if the universe is All That
There Is) might well be just as confused about it as we. We can conceive
ourselves as outside the universe (the 'not-me'), but it doesn't seem to
help us. Like Festus, the only 'God' (single Supreme Eternal Being) I can
conceive of would have to be immanent in that universe, would BE the
universe, (whether consciously so or not), and and might therefore (as a
self-conscious being) have no more idea of Its future than we do of ours -
except the certainty that It, like us, must come to an end in present form,
and become something else. Then again, if the Supreme Being were not
self-conscious, It wouldn't even consider Its own eventual mutability, and I
doubt that It would be thinking ahead at all.
> The fact that Germanic languages don't have a specific inflection to
> express future events but use different kinds of composite forms using
> modals, doesn't say much about their attitude towards future. The idea
> of the thought "because Germanic languages had/have no grammatic future,
> they don't think future as something fixed" looks very strange to me.
See Kellner and de Swart, above. You can tell how people think by how they
communicate. If a concept does not exist in a culture, or exists rarely, it
is not communicated, or only rarely so.
> Languages do change permanently. Only a few are preserved as a medium of
> international communication (like Latin was) or a cultural treasure
> (like Greek, Latin, Classic Arab etc.).
And these, too, change; but Aristotle could read a modern Greek newspaper.
Cato could read the Tridentine Missal.
> With those preserved versions as Attic or Homeric Greek and Ciceronian
> or Vergilean Latin we have languages of a very high standard of
> cultivation - compare Goethe's use of German language with the language
> rural people used, and you would be astonished about the difference.
Agreed; yet rural people in ancient Greece were used to hearing rhapsodes
recite Homer. 18thC. rustics in England had (perforce) to hear the Book of
Common Prayer and the Bible read to them in refined 'preserved' English, yet
I don't doubt they mostly understood it. And I bet that in all cases, they
used the same basic verb tenses.
> Probably it is not a problam of mentality but of literacy? Literacy
> fixes a certain state and makes it a model for later writers.
As I see it, literacy has nothing to do with it. Literature, like all other
forms of linguistic communication, is common social currency. Before
liberalism got its way in the industrialised nations in the later19thC.,
literacy in western societies was never higher than around 20% (classical
Athens) (an estimated 10% for classical Rome) (I'll dig out the references
for those estimates if anyone insists). A whole people partake of literate
culture through non-written media, whether via the stage, the pulpit, the
television: Dickens' novels, believe it or not, were primarily designed to
be read aloud. The elite and the masses have always had, perforce, to
understand one another (actually, this is how English evolved, from the
dialogue between Norman overlord and Saxon underling).
Vado:
> > Other Germanic languages, being far less influenced by Latin-based
language than English, don't even have this option.
> >
> In case he's talking about German,
Who 'he'?! German is one of the Germanic languages, yes.
>I, being a German native speaker and
> having studied my language carefully, can assure you, he is completely
> wrong.
Es scheint mir, dass Sie den Wald wegen der Baume nicht sehen konnen. (It
seems to me that you can't see the wood for the trees). You have studied a
language, but not comparative linguistics.
> When we say: Es wird geschehen.- It will happen
- you are using 'werden', indicating an approaching event, as in 'Es wird
jetzt schon dunkel' (it is becoming dark already). A more challenging
objection might have been: 'Werden Sie heute Abend wieder kommen?' (will you
be coming again this evening?), to which one might reply: 'Ich komme in zwei
Tage zuruck' (I shall come back in two days).
Those examples made me think for a while. But neither actually employs a
true future tense: the first example is really: 'do you become coming again
this evening?', and the second is: 'I come back in two days' (the hearer is
implicitly asked to shift the present tense forward by two days, to a time
when the speaker IS coming again). Granted, both presuppose a future event
(or rather, its probability, cetertis paribus), but neither is
unconditional. In the first case, the events setting in motion the possible
return in the same evening are actually questioned as to whether they will
be truly causative, and in the second, the present tense coming is
conditional on two more days happening beforehand.
> - it depends on our
> point of view which we have to express by additional adverbs, particles,
> or other syntactical components, if we think it will hapen for sure
Precisely. There isn't a word for it.
>or
> most likely or eventually or probably or hopefully ... As for itself "Es
> wird geschehen." definitely means "eveniebit" in Latin.
Yes, insofaras they have equivalent utility value, and there is no closer
approximation in German. We all talk about the future, and future actions,
but two verbs in a Germanic language have to do the work of one in a
Latinate language - and even then the precise meaning is untranslatable. One
equivalent concept-word does not exist.
> By the way, mind that Latin was the lingua franca from ancient times to
> the 16th century all over Europe - and even in South America!
If this were true, it would have been called the lingua latina. The term
'lingua franca' is derived from the French-based jargon used by medieval
soldiers of different lands and tongues during the Crusades, an odd
composite vaguely like Esperanto. I just can't imagine Montezuma and Cortes
chatting away in Latin, either.
> > Or, it seems that the Latins have a cultural mindset which regards the
future as knowable, while the Northerners don't.
> >
> Well, I really advise you to study Plato or Aristotle ... It is
> definitely not true that the Romans or Greeks assumed future events as
> being knowable or fixed.
Hence the frequent outlawing of astrologers and fortune-tellers from Rome by
successive emperors, the Parcae (Greek = Moirai) who measure the length of
a man's life (especially Atropos = 'unchangeable', 'inflexible',
'unbending'), and the Greek Manteis (seers)?
One should not mistake popular, traditional cultural belief and notions for
what the odd philosopher thought. Plato thought poets and storytellers
should be outlawed, because they didn't tell the truth, and that the world
would be a better place if run by philosophers. Hardly typical of his
contemporaries. Aristotle's 'good life' was to be led by comfortably-off,
leisured gentlemen like himself, to whom lesser beings such as slaves, women
and artisans, were not life-ends in themselves, but merely ends to the
'good' lives of aristoi like Aristotle. I bet most people didn't agree with
him, either.
> The business of prophecy and fortune-telling is well-known all over the
> world. It is a part of human nature. We don't know about the future, and
> we know we don't.
Some of us know people who can get to know the future (whether fixed or
probable), which is why we consult them.
> And we wonder. Which is the beginning of philosophy.
And the end of philosophy. And the long bit in the middle. Personally, I
find divination more practically useful - that, and trying to maintain the
pax deorum. When philosophers say "we" don't know, or "we can't know", they
always have mice in their pockets. To philosophers, uncertainty is even
better for business than it is to astrologers. Never ask a tonsor if you
need a haircut.
Valete,
Vado.
"The proletariat utterly rejects the epistemological hegemony of academe."
- Caecilia Leporaria (whilst drinking).
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] List matters |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 02:24:42 -0000 |
|
Patricia Cassia Omnibus SPD,
I hesitate to interrupt the intriguing linguistic discussion, but
there
are a few matters I need to address in my role as Curatrix Sermonem
(list moderator):
1) Welcome, all new Nova Romans! Welcome also to those who may be
joining this list in order to get an idea about Nova Roma before
joining. I thank you all, newcomers and veterans alike, for making
this
list a pleasant and informative forum.
2) Some time ago, I posted, but did not formally establish, a set of
guidelines for participation in this list. They are at
http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/nr_list_guidelines.html
(you may need to register/sign in at the eGroups site to see them). I
would appreciate any final comments and feedback in the next few
days.
While it is within the scope of my duties to impose them out of hand,
I
would much prefer to establish guidelines which are in keeping with
the
wishes of the Citizenry.
3) Some people have commented on the "reply" feature on this list.
This
is a change that has worked for some years on the other, larger list
that I manage.
Here's the rationale: There are a great many people on the Nova Roma
list, and I hope we'd all agree that we'd like to keep our forum as
open and welcoming as possible.
One of the things that deters otherwise dedicated Citizens from
posting
is the problem of high list traffic. Not all of us can check e-mail
constantly through the day, as Sulla and others do, and a mailbox
with
dozens or even hundreds of posts is likely to lead the recipients to
throw up their hands and either delete it all unread, or leave the
list.
Another deterrent to participation is a flood of list traffic that is
unnecessary or off-topic. That's where this feature really shines.
The
easiest possible reply is one that goes to the poster privately - the
most appropriate venue for carrying on a two-person discussion.
Having
to change the "To:" address to "novaroma@--------" gives you an
extra moment to think: "Does the whole list really need to hear this?"
That said, I am willing to listen to arguments against it. Just hit
"reply" to this message. I welcome private e-mail from anyone who has
concerns, ideas or feedback for making this list better.
Patricia Cassia
Curatrix Sermonem (list moderator), Nova Roma
pcassia@--------
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] List matters |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:25:54 -0600 |
|
Patriciae Cassiae amica Livia Cornelia Aurelia salutem
As I've said on the list, I am in that group of people who strongly wish the
list to return to the old feature of replying to the old list first. I
cannot express to you how much I dislike the current setting and how much I
want it to be changed back.
To begin with, it doesn't matter to me what works for your other list. This
is our list, and this setting does not work for me.
I agree that some need to learn discretion on what they post. I recognize
that at moments, I have even been one who has needed better discretion.
However, I don't think imposing this feature teaches that. I would rather
see somebody given a few direct yet low-key warnings...."you are not
complying with the guidelines" and then a timeout ...."you now may not post
to the list for 24 hours", if their list behavior is truly reprehensible.
In other words, YES, hold us accountable for our behavior, but do it
directly. Don't rely on a list setting to try to teach people to think
before sending an email. That doesn't tell us anything about what effective
communication is. Rather, leave the list easy for us to use, let us USE it,
and use it well, and if one of us strays off the path, tell us, so we may
know...oh, this is what straying off the path looks like.
As for the volume of mail, I generally feel that we should be doing
everything we can to generate mail!! (Quality mail, certainly....not
ranting) My reason for this is that, for many people in Nova Roma, their
only and first point of contact is the Nova Roma list. If they see nothing
happening on the list, it is as bad as seeing inappropriate email on the
list. Nova Roma remains a solitary place for them. I believe it is quite
intimidating to post an email to a total stranger. The list is where
strangers cease to be strangers in Nova Roma. Therefore we should make it:
1. As easy to use as possible; and
2. As active as possible, by as many as possible.
So, you see, to me, when you try to limit use of the list, you are in effect
curtailing the development of Nova Roma. Which, perhaps unlike your other
list, is trying to be MORE than a list. We are trying to build a
micronation, with local contact, with increased participation, and,
ultimately, if I understand correctly, with an effort to build some sort of
physical, uniquely Nova Roma, location. Patricia Cassia, all of these
things stem from the main list being a site of high traffic!!!
I check my email once or maybe twice a day. If I have less than 20 email
from Nova Roma, I admit, I'm a bit disappointed. I have no problem with a
full inbasket -- even if that means 50 email or more! When I go a day, or a
few days, or a week, with little to no mail from Nova Roma, I worry that we
are not going to thrive over the long haul.
Please, Patricia Cassia, change the setting back.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> 3) Some people have commented on the "reply" feature on this list.
> This
> is a change that has worked for some years on the other, larger list
> that I manage.
>
> Here's the rationale: There are a great many people on the Nova Roma
> list, and I hope we'd all agree that we'd like to keep our forum as
> open and welcoming as possible.
>
> One of the things that deters otherwise dedicated Citizens from
> posting
> is the problem of high list traffic. Not all of us can check e-mail
> constantly through the day, as Sulla and others do, and a mailbox
> with
> dozens or even hundreds of posts is likely to lead the recipients to
> throw up their hands and either delete it all unread, or leave the
> list.
>
> Another deterrent to participation is a flood of list traffic that is
> unnecessary or off-topic. That's where this feature really shines.
> The
> easiest possible reply is one that goes to the poster privately - the
> most appropriate venue for carrying on a two-person discussion.
> Having
> to change the "To:" address to "novaroma@--------" gives you an
> extra moment to think: "Does the whole list really need to hear this?"
>
> That said, I am willing to listen to arguments against it. Just hit
> "reply" to this message. I welcome private e-mail from anyone who has
> concerns, ideas or feedback for making this list better.
>
> Patricia Cassia
> Curatrix Sermonem (list moderator), Nova Roma
> pcassia@--------
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] List matters |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:42:15 -0700 |
|
Ave
I believe it would be more than some people have commented on this. As
Senator Ericius commented on this before....lets have a poll where the
citizens can voice their opinions on this subject. I think that would be
the best way to solve this issue.
As for my opinion, I prefer the old way. I have voiced my opinions on this
before but I just want to add one thing. We are supposed to be a nation.
Albeit a micronation, but a nation nevertheless. Beyond that we are
focusing our lives on a culture that lasted over 1000 years. And on top of
that we are trying to intreprete what they did and trying to reconstruct it
for our own modern nation. This means there are going to be three main
areas that will generate emails: Modern Nova Roma email, emails of a
historical nature, or emails that blur the two.
Nova Roma has taken steps to reduce some of the emails by creating Sodalias
and other email lists. For example, we have the religio list, the Ergessus
list, Musarum list, The cooking and Brewing Sodalias, the defunct Roman Back
Alley, and the defunct Via Trames, and various Gens email and provincia
lists. I believe that this added check is completely unnecessary.
I truly hope our list moderator will put up a poll so that the People of
Nova Roma will have an opportunity to voice their opinions and that our list
moderator would act in accordance to the results of the poll.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor et Senator
>
> 3) Some people have commented on the "reply" feature on this list.
> This
> is a change that has worked for some years on the other, larger list
> that I manage.
>
> Here's the rationale: There are a great many people on the Nova Roma
> list, and I hope we'd all agree that we'd like to keep our forum as
> open and welcoming as possible.
>
> One of the things that deters otherwise dedicated Citizens from
> posting
> is the problem of high list traffic. Not all of us can check e-mail
> constantly through the day, as Sulla and others do, and a mailbox
> with
> dozens or even hundreds of posts is likely to lead the recipients to
> throw up their hands and either delete it all unread, or leave the
> list.
>
> Another deterrent to participation is a flood of list traffic that is
> unnecessary or off-topic. That's where this feature really shines.
> The
> easiest possible reply is one that goes to the poster privately - the
> most appropriate venue for carrying on a two-person discussion.
> Having
> to change the "To:" address to "novaroma@--------" gives you an
> extra moment to think: "Does the whole list really need to hear this?"
>
> That said, I am willing to listen to arguments against it. Just hit
> "reply" to this message. I welcome private e-mail from anyone who has
> concerns, ideas or feedback for making this list better.
>
> Patricia Cassia
> Curatrix Sermonem (list moderator), Nova Roma
> pcassia@--------
>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] New Citizen |
| From: |
FIOCRU@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 13:00:28 -0000 |
|
Salvate Omnes!
Citizens and People of Nova Roma
I am a new citizan to Nova Roma and wish to introduce myself. My
Roman name is Caius Floronius Vincentius. I am 46 years old and work
in the medical profession. Currently, I am living in Provincia
Pensylvania. I have an interest in all things "Roman", but have a
particular fondness for military history/reenactments, pagan
religion, philosophy, and art and architecture. I look forward to
participating in discussions and getting to know you all.
Vale,
Caius Floronius Vincentius
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] list rules- web access |
| From: |
asseri@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:02:13 EDT |
|
In a message dated 10/1/2000 7:08:25 AM, novaroma@-------- writes:
<< 2) Some time ago, I posted, but did not formally establish, a set of
guidelines for participation in this list. They are at
http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/nr_list_guidelines.html
>>
I would like to suggest that it is not wise to assume if a person is on
the list that they have web access. The computer I was loaned a Mac for some
reason will not let me do more than get e-mail on AOL. I am still trying to
figure out why.
It may not hurt to offer to send them to a list member if needed.
P.A. Olivia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] New agnomen |
| From: |
DTibbe2926@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:10:39 EDT |
|
To my fellow Britonnes and citizens of NR
Just a quick note to tell all that my official name is now PUBLIUS CLAUDIUS
LUCENTIUS SEVERUS BICURRATUS.
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: list rules- web access |
| From: |
"Razenna " <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:51:41 -0000 |
|
Now we can see if I can reconstruct the post I just sent off to
Olivia. I do not like the current default for replies. I urge that
it be changed.
Some lists that I have had experience with post their rules to the
list once a week. Usually on Sunday, it theoretically being a slow
day. One list which has four sets of guidelines posts one set a
week.
Posting the rules to the list as a message, rather than a link, is
one way around not everyone having web access.
C. Aelius Ericius.
--- In novaroma@--------, asseri@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/1/2000 7:08:25 AM, novaroma@--------
writes:
>
> << 2) Some time ago, I posted, but did not formally establish, a
set
of
> guidelines for participation in this list. They are at
>
> http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/nr_list_guidelines.html
> >>
> I would like to suggest that it is not wise to assume if a
person is on
> the list that they have web access. The computer I was loaned a
Mac
for some
> reason will not let me do more than get e-mail on AOL. I am still
trying to
> figure out why.
> It may not hurt to offer to send them to a list member if needed.
>
> P.A. Olivia
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] New Citizen |
| From: |
Matthias Stappert <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 21:16:30 +0200 |
|
Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.
Salve, Caius Floronius Vincentius
Welcome among your roman fellow citizens. I wish you that you might find all
you are looking for. Participation is the most honourable right for all
Romans, so, be part of this great micronation.
Valete all
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
FIOCRU@-------- schrieb:
> Salvate Omnes!
>
> Citizens and People of Nova Roma
> I am a new citizan to Nova Roma and wish to introduce myself. My
> Roman name is Caius Floronius Vincentius. I am 46 years old and work
> in the medical profession. Currently, I am living in Provincia
> Pensylvania. I have an interest in all things "Roman", but have a
> particular fondness for military history/reenactments, pagan
> religion, philosophy, and art and architecture. I look forward to
> participating in discussions and getting to know you all.
>
> Vale,
> Caius Floronius Vincentius
>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Kal. October |
| From: |
Razenna <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 12:29:49 -0700 |
|
Die Septum te kalo Iuno Covello.
On this day a ceremony is in honor of Fides is conducted where the
flamines ride to the Capitol in a two horse hooded carriage. Their
right hands are covered to the fingers in token of protecting the
shrine from human pollution. horace implies that the statute of the
goddess Fides has her hand covered (alba Fides velata panno). Fides
was also regarded as an attitude of the Gods to mankind rather than
simply as loyalty between men. There was the embodiment of the belief
in the reliability of the gods, if humans did their part in
maintaining the pax deorum. When someone prays "do ut des", the fides
of the deities is engaged.
Honos and Fides are also said to be honored this day.
C. Aelius Ericius.
Pontifex et Augur.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: New Citizen |
| From: |
Razenna <razenna@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 12:36:59 -0700 |
|
Salve, C. Foloronius Vicentius.
Welcome to our Nova Roma family, Vincentius. May you find our little
respublica rewarding and pleasing. Do not hesitate to ask questions
of anyone. Though some may be more able to respond than others, we
are all here to help Nova Roma, and helping fellow citizens is a part
of that.
Bene vale.
C. Aelius Ericius.
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] roman clothing question |
| From: |
scott dolleck <sdolzg@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:40:53 -0700 (PDT) |
|
ave,
I was wondering if any one knows what kind of
stitching(I dont want to use a sewing machine)
was used on roman tunics and other assorted clothing?
I am making a few things and i want them to be
authentic.
Lucius
__________________________________________________
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: list rules- web access |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 20:46:51 -0000 |
|
Excellent point, Olivia! I hereby post the draft of list guidelines
for
the benefit of all who may not have had the capability or inclination
to see them on the Web. Again, your comments are welcome.
DRAFT
GUIDELINES FOR THE NOVA ROMA MAILING LIST
By Patricia Cassia
Curatrix Sermonem (List moderator)
This list is for you, and I see my role as trying to facilitate a
place
where we can all share information and get to know one
another. So these guidelines are open to change, and to your
suggestions.
First, a little history: When Nova Roma was founded in 1998, it was
clear that the Internet would play a big part in its growth and
development. Marcus Cassius Julianus, one of the two founders, asked
me
(then his girlfriend, later his wife) to start a mailing list.
At first it ran on a clunky Mac program from my home machine, but
very
soon it became possible to use a Web-based service as
its host.
Today the list has nearly 250 people on it. As we've grown, we've had
to adjust the way we communicate so as to make
electronic "room" for everyone. This set of guidelines represents
another effort in that direction. It is not a response to any one
person or posting.
I.The list is set up so that replies automatically go to the
poster, not the entire list. When you reply to a post, consider
carefully whether your posting is of interest to the entire
list,
or whether it is a response only to one person.
II.Agreement and support for one another are always welcome.
However, if you are simply saying "yes!" or "me too,"
without adding more information to the thread, consider doing
so
in private e-mail.
III.If you must criticize another's post, consider doing so in
private e-mail. If the person has made a genuine error, this allows
him or her to save face and apologize for misbehavior or
correct
misinformation, rather than having misdeeds pointed out
publicly.
IV.It is entirely appropriate to disagree publicly with another's
stated views, or with the actions of Nova Roma's Senate,
magistrates and other officials. Nova Roma is an organization
of
individuals from a wide variety of nations, religions,
backgrounds and political viewpoints, and it is only reasonable
that our views should differ.
V.When expressing disagreement, the following steps are
recommended:
Express respect for the person and faith in his or her
good
intentions.
Point out any themes or ideas with which you do agree.
Express your own opinion pleasantly, with respect for the
rights of others to believe differently from you. On the
Internet, strong language does not enhance the
effectiveness of your communication. It simply makes you look
strident and overbearing.
Offer factual information where possible, backed up with
sources. Quiet statements of fact win respect from those
following your conversation.
Offer sources of factual information (books, web links,
etc.) that might be of interest to others interested in the
topic.
Use humor when appropriate (i.e. when it helps lighten
the
tone of a discussion without being aimed at other list
members)
VI.If a thread or posting on the list makes you angry or sad,
consider not responding at all, or doing so in private e-mail. If
you do decide to respond to something that has pressed your
emotional buttons, do not press Send right after writing your
response. Let it sit in your Out box for 24 hours. Then look at
it again, and consider whether this response is the one that
best enhances your own honor and advances the knowledge of
fellow
list members.
VII.Remember that there are people on this list who are under 18.
Profanity is generally unnecessary. Sexual references should
be mild at worst.
VIII.Name-calling is inappropriate. Expressions of disagreement
should be confined to criticizing the words or ideas of another,
rather than the person.
IX.During the time leading up to elections (held each December,
and
occasionally at other times if offices become vacant), this
list is also one of the public forums through which candidates
express their views and present their qualifications to the
populace. All of the above strictures governing appropriate
behavior remain in place and apply to all candidates and
their supporters.
X.Avoid giving out your home address and/or phone number on this
list. You do not know all the people on here, and while
it would be pleasant to believe we are all good-hearted and
sane,
you cannot trust in that.
XI.The topic of this list is ancient Rome and Nova Roma. Off-topic
postings include:
Discussions of macronational politics, except when they
shed light on an ancient Roman subject or in some way
relate to Nova Roma.
Bashing of any religion. It is OK to discuss your own
disagreements with various faiths, but not to disrespect the
rights of others to believe in those faiths.
Arguments on certain well-worn issues that are
contentious
in modern society (examples: abortion, gun control),
except as they relate to our topic.
Jokes that aren't related to the topic or to current
discussions on the list
Virus warnings and other urban legends.
All commercial postings, except from members of the
Macellum, Nova Roma's marketplace (and even these should
be "low-key" - see below).
XII.The best postings include those which help us better understand
some aspect of Roman history, or which offer ideas and
energy to the furtherance of Nova Roma's goals. On-topic
postings
include, but are not limited to:
Anything related to ancient history. This is broadly
interpreted to include religion, cooking, gardening, family life,
politics, military, costuming, medicine and many other
topics.
Anything that has the effect of building community among
list members (announcements of local events, planning
get-togethers, sharing occasional personal milestones).
Information of interest to Nova Romans (links, news,
tourism information for Roman sites, updates from political or
religious bodies, regional or Sodalitas projects).
Low-key advertisements for Macellum members. A low-key
advertisement might include a signature file, a single
announcement of a new business, or a mention of one's
business in response to a relevant thread on the list.
XIII.The Curatrix Sermonem has imperium to govern this list, but
prefers to encourage positive interaction rather than punish
negative behavior. In the case of a poster whose actions
repeatedly violate these guidelines or otherwise seriously disrupt
the peace, the Curatrix Sermonem will choose from the following
list of escalating actions:
i.General note to the list, not directed at anyone
personally, but mentioning the behavior in question and suggesting
alternate courses of action.
ii.Pleasant, private note to the individual, asking him or
her to stop.
iii.Less pleasant, private note to the individual, warning
him
or her to stop.
iv.Placement of the individual on "moderated" status (the
individual remains a member of the list, but all posts must
be filtered by the Curatrix Sermonem). Message sent to
the
Senate informing them of this step.
v.In extreme cases, the offender can and will be banned from
the list. Further action may be taken by the Senate, but
this step represents the limit of the Curatrix Sermonem's
powers.
The vast majority of cases can be dealt with via the first two
steps alone, and it is the Curatrix Sermonem's hope that these
guidelines will reduce the necessity even of those steps.
XIV.If you are unhappy about someone's behavior on the list, and you
do not feel comfortable dealing with him/her privately,
do not tell the list about it. This often has the effect of
adding further strife. Instead, e-mail me at pcassia@--------
Additionally, I welcome concerns, questions or ideas for more
effective list administration in private e-mail. Allow 24 hours
or so for me to respond; I check my e-mail often, but I also
have
a life.
XV.Finally, to all of you who make the Nova Roma list an pleasant
and
informative place, thank you.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] roman clothing question |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 15:36:03 -0600 |
|
Salve, Lucius, from Livia Cornelia Aurelia!!
I'm not sure what the Romans would have done exactly, but I
can make a few guesses.
First of all, let me commend you. As a seamstress
virtually from birth, it's a big task to commit to sewing a
garment completely by hand, and I wouldn't worry TOO much
about the specific techniques. Be prepared to double the
time you think you'll take!! That said, just doing it is as
good as reconstructionist accuracy. Let's try to zero in on
some specifics. It would depend on where you were stitching.
HEMS/TRIM
To do an edge hem or apply a trim (such as a stripe),
probably a simple whip stitch would suffice. To do this,
you would catch a prick of one side of the fabric you were
joining, catch a prick of the other side of the fabric, pull
the needle through, and advance a bit (say, 1/8 or 1/4 of an
inch, depending on how tight you want the stitching to be).
You wouldn't do this on a raw edge, so you would need to
tuck any raw edges inside the hem by a 1/4 inch or so.
SEAMS
To sew seams, I would recommend AGAINST using a running
stitch, which would entail simply weaving your thread in and
out of the fabric along the length. To me, this would make
a very weak seam. However, you could do a running stitch
and then "oversew" the seam, which would entail going over
the seam twice. Then you'd want to finish the raw seams by
frenching the seam (preferred, explained below), or by
"hemming" the selvage on both sides either with a rolled
hem and whipstitch, or with a herringbone stitch running
through the flat selvage on both sides of the seam left
between where you stitched the seam and the edge of the
fabric on each side of the seam. A herringbone stitch would
look something like this:
EDGE
_ _
_/\_/\_
SEAM
Rather, to do seams, I would borrow a stitch from embroidery
stitching called the Back Stitch. This is a VERY old
stitch, also known as pont du sable. Using this stitch
should, I think, make a strong enough seam that you wouldn't
have to sew the seam twice, (especially since Roman garb
isn't especially close fitting) though I haven't
experimented with this myself. I intend to do so, when I
sew my own Roman garments.
I would use this stitch on the seam, and then finish off
both selvages in a "french seam". Frenching the seam means
you stitch the seam about 1/2 inch from the raw edges of the
fabric (OUTSIDES of the fabric facing each other), then,
still working with the outsides of the fabric to the inside
of the garment and the seam/selvages on the outside, fold
the raw edges of each side of the selvage over towards the
seam, join the two folded-over selvages together, and
whipstich the selvages closed. This link gives you a
diagram of how to do this:
http://sewing.about.com/hobbies/sewing/library/weekly/aa012098.htm
To start the Back Stitch bring the thread up from the back
of the fabric on the line that you want to create. Make a
small backward stitch through the fabric. Bring the needle
through the fabric a little in front of the first stitch and
still on the line. Pull the thread through the fabric. Make
the second stitch backward, bringing the needle out a little
in front of the second stitch and still on the line. Repeat
this movement and continue in such a manner along the line.
NOTE: With hand-sewing, it's impossible to get
the nice, crisp seams we are used to today. Two
things you can do will help you still make a nice
looking seam: One is to buy a piece of marking
chalk from a sewing store, and then use a ruler to
mark a guideline for your seam stitching on the
wrong side (that which will be the inside, and the
side which faces you as you stitch). Again, I
would mark a guideline about 1/2 inch from the raw
edge, though the traditional measure is 5/8 inch
from the edge. (goodness, I hope our European
cives don't mind I'm not talking metrics!)
The other thing to do is, even though you will
French the seam, press the seam open BEFORE
frenching it. This means placing the garment on
an ironing board, outside of the garment facing
the board, inside of the garment/seam facing you,
and opening the seam and pressing it with an iron
so that the outside of the fabric selvages is
facing you. Then, after this is done, proceed
with frenching the seam. AFTER the seam is
frenched, repress the seam so that the encased
selvage is to one side of the seam with the inside
of the fabric facing the ironing board and the
outside of the garment is facing you.
Also, resist the temptation to skip over finishing
off the seam. Especially since you will be using
wool or linen to make your garments, you must
finish the seam either by frenching or hemming, or
after a few washings the edges will fray badly and
all your sewing work will be ruined.
Finally, keep your thread and stiches tight, and
WASH and dry the fabric as you expect to clean the
garment before starting the garment. This is
important with natural fabrics like wool or linen
to avoid disastrous shrinkage and seam puckering
later. This step removes the sizing they coat
modern fabrics to make them attractive on the
shelf.
-----
For a different point of view, I am excerpting a discussion
I found at:
http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/archives/hcos94/n097.
Flat-felled seams are those seams found on the outer legs of
jeans: I think this seam would be incorrect and excessive
for Roman clothing. However, here is a link on how to do
flat-felled seams:
http://www.sewing.about.com/hobbies/sewing/library/howto/htflatfelled.htm
From: J.A.Bray@--------
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 08:53:36 BST
Subject: Re: Stitching
It depends on what era you're after. I do mainly tenth
century stuff. The
most common stitches seem to be running stitch and
oversewing with
herringbone quite common on hems.
The seam types vary with overlapping seams, the normal type
where you
have the two raw edges turned back, and also run and fell
seams (like
the ones on the outside of jeans legs).
Anyway if you're not doing anything fancy I'd have thought
you couldn't
go wrong with running stitch and oversewing they have
literally been
around for millenia.
.....
One thing I have noticed about old machine sewn clothes is
they use a
much smaller stitch length than I would. The stitches are
smaller than I
would use on coarse woolens, but they get down to
microscopic levels on
fine linens.
Jennifer
From: ritchiek@-------- (unknown)
Subject: pre-machine seams
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 94 16:18:36 EST
I don't know for certain the type of stiches used But I do
know that
flat felled seams are documentable as a way of properly
finishing seams
before the sewing machines were invented These flat felled
seams were
found on extant garments of the eighteenth century I believe
and are
mentioned in the Tippecanoe Historical Assoc. book on 18th
century
recreation....
I use french seams on all of the natural fiber garmets I
make If they are not lined. I did make one article
completely by hand once to enter in
an SCA arts and science competition. It took much longer to
sew by hand
than I had anticipated But the feeling of satisfaction when
it was
completed was tremendous. It was a full length 100% wool
circle cloak
with a linen look linning. ...
-Isabeau Pferdebandiger, Barony of Rivenstar MK
scott dolleck wrote:
> ave,
>
> I was wondering if any one knows what kind of
> stitching(I dont want to use a sewing machine)
> was used on roman tunics and other assorted clothing?
> I am making a few things and i want them to be
> authentic.
>
> Lucius
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Sewing our garments, continued.... |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 01 Oct 2000 15:54:55 -0600 |
|
Salve, Omnes:
Continuing the recent discussion regarding how to sew period
garments, the following link is an excellent resource for
anybody interesting in taking up the needle and isn't quite
sure which end of the needle the thread goes through.
http://sewing.about.com/hobbies/sewing/msubglossary.htm
It goes well beyond the knowledge we need for making
garments, and isn't period specific. But, better too much
info than not enough. In my spare time, I'll try to
research and develop a tailored FAQ (pun intended) for our
specific benefit.
Vale,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: list rules- web access |
| From: |
"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 1 Oct 2000 17:42:54 -0400 |
|
Salve,
I would like to thank you for posting the list of rules here, as well as on
the web. I appreciate the chance to read them, think about them and reply.
My only real input applies to the issue of list reply settings. I must
chime in with some others who have made the point that they dislike the
current settings. I made a conscious decision to reply here to the list, as
I believe (forgive me if I am in error) that you wish input and discussion
on the list rules.
Others have said it far more eloquently than I will, but I concur that the
old setting (automatically replying to the list, not the poster) is far
preferable to this current system. I understand that you have had success
with your other lists using poster-replies, but I truly dislike the current
set-up. To be honest, I am unsure why every list member needs to take the
time to change reply lines due to the actions, or potential actions, of a
few.
I know that good arguments can be made for and against the settings, but all
I ask is that you seriously consider returning to the list-reply settings as
soon as possible. Discipline of those who use the list incorrectly should
be private and personal, fitting the violation. To force all of us to take
an extra step (small as that step may be) when we have not violated any
policies just strikes me as over-cautious and as potentially curtailing
discussions on the list.
These are my thoughts on the matter. I trust you will take them into
consideration, along with others of course, before making a final decision.
Priscilla Vedia Serena
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Poll - List Reply feature |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 1 Oct 2000 15:53:57 -0700 |
|
Ave Civies
Numerous people have conveyed to our list moderator for the
past 3-4 weeks regarding changing the reply feature. P.
Cassia has had ample time to respond to the opinions of the
People, but has been slow to respond or show recognition of
the opinions of those people who have voiced concerns that
differ from her own viewpoint.
As Censor, I have started submitting potential Edictas to
the poll feature and I believe that the polls serve a good
measuring stick in regards to the People's opinion. With
that in mind, I will in the next few minutes create a poll
in regards to this issue.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] New poll for novaroma |
| From: |
novaroma@-------- |
| Date: |
1 Oct 2000 22:59:02 -0000 |
|
Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the novaroma
group:
Which Reply feature do you prefer, when
you respond to messages posted in the
NovaRoma main list?
o Replies go directly to the Nova Roma list.
o Replies go directly to the original poster. (Not the list).
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://www.egroups.com/polls/novaroma
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
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