Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] In re the Resignation of the Rogator
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 07 Oct 2000 18:22:17 -0600

Salvete Omnes:

Vado, we may indeed have more people interested in
applying. I don't know, and
it's a fair question. The best thing to do is to focus on
filling this
immediate position, and ALSO, it's an excellent suggestion
that I would second,
that we should have at least one extra Rogator serving in
the wings.

As the current Rogator suffecti, I have the utmost
confidence that another
Rogator will be located that is acceptable to the Senate. I
am ready to assist
the Senate in any way they need to identify my new
colleague, although I also
know that they have this situation well in hand. Mostly, I
stand ready to
exercise my office in service to our res publica, and am
confident that another
Nova Roman will step forward to do the same. I'm really
looking forward to
doing this!

For anybody interested in the Rogatorship, let me just
assure you that I've been
studying what the position requires, and the work is fairly
minimal. What we
need immediately is somebody besides me to independently
tally the vote results
in December. I think it is fair to say you would be looking
at no more than 1-2
hours a day during and immediately after the December
election, plus a handful
of hours over a weekend before the elections getting up to
speed on the voting
regulations and getting your counting tool prepared.

One qualification is that anybody serving as Rogator is
ineligible from standing
for office in the election they are moderating.

If anybody has any questions, please feel free to ask me and
I'll try to answer
them or find the best answer for you.

Vale,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Rogator Suffecti


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Resignation of a Rogator
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 07 Oct 2000 17:53:36 -0700

Nick Ford wrote:

> Quiritibus salutem
>
> Inquit Sulla:
>
> > How can the Senate establish four when we dont have that many people who
> are
> > interested in applying?
>
> Respondeo:
>
> I would like to answer this question by asking another: how does Sulla know
> that fewer than four cives are interested in applying?
>

Ave,

Must you ask! I would think it would have been obvious....one, I am a member of
the NR list....and so far only 2 candidates have offered their services.

>
> Post haec iterum Sulla:
>
> > We need people who are willing to give their time to NR.
>
> Iam respondeo:
>
> I agree. But an attitude that assumes people don't want to know is something
> we DON'T need in Nova Roma. Perhaps if we all used that little word "if"
> rather more than the word "when" in our deliberations, things might go
> better.
>

Who is assuming that attitude?

>
> Last time we allowed ourselves to drift up the electoral creek without a
> paddle, more citizens applied for the job of Rogator than were accepted.
> What I'm saying here is that we should have taken everybody on who applied.
> We didn't.

There were other issues such as the Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate, since 2 of
the three applicants were under age. One of them dropped out while the matter
was in deliberations with the Senate, the other was rejected. So there are
other issues that we must be concerned with other than taking everyone who
applied.

> Now we're in the same fix again. Of course it may just so happen
> that we get only one applicant, in which case it would still make sense to
> continue to trawl for more until we get more. Or risk our democratic
> processes being disrupted yet again, which I'm sure nobody wants. Nonne,
> Sulla?
>

No one does..but we must be legal. The LEX VEDIA VIGINTISEXVIRI calls for two.
If we want more than we need to change that.

>
> Besides, we have an establishment of many posts in NR which have remained
> vacant since Day One. This does not justify our ceasing to attempt to fill
> these established positions, either. The posts are there because somebody
> thought it
> was a good idea.
>

True and your point?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

>
> N. Moravius Vado.
>
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor
> >
> > Nick Ford wrote:
> >
> > > Salutem iterum
> > >
> > > I said it when this happened before, and I'll say it again now: we need
> a
> > > pool of surplus Rogatores so we don't get caught short again. I beg the
> > > Senate to consider an establishment of *four*.
> > >
> > > Bene valete,
> > >
> > > Vado.
> > >
> > > > It is my duty to report that Rogator Merlinia Ambrosia Artori has
> > > > resigned from her position due to pressing demands in her real world
> > > > work. The Consuls and Senate are seeking candidates for this post,
> which
> > > > is essential for the upcoming end-of-the-year elections.
> > > >
> > > > I think a session of the Senate is coming shortly - apparently at the
> > > > next legal date attended by favorable auspices. Anyone interested in
> > > > becoming a Rogator should announce their interest to the Senate. I
> think
> > > > the address is:
> > > >
> > > > <senate@-------->
> > > >
> > > > For newcomers who may not know, rogators are the officials who tally
> the
> > > > votes from elections.
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > > > Tribunus Plebis
> >
> >


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] In re the Resignation of the Rogator
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Oct 2000 03:33:10 +0200

Livia Cornelia Aurelia wrote:

>Salvete Omnes:

>For anybody interested in the Rogatorship, let me just
>assure you that I've been
>studying what the position requires, and the work is fairly
>minimal. What we
>need immediately is somebody besides me to independently
>tally the vote results
>in December. I think it is fair to say you would be looking
>at no more than 1-2
>hours a day during and immediately after the December
>election, plus a handful
>of hours over a weekend before the elections getting up to
>speed on the voting
>regulations and getting your counting tool prepared.
>
>One qualification is that anybody serving as Rogator is
>ineligible from standing
>for office in the election they are moderating.
>
>If anybody has any questions, please feel free to ask me and
>I'll try to answer
>them or find the best answer for you.
>
>Vale,
>Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>Rogator Suffecti

Salve!

I am a new citizen, living in Provincia Thule. At this range between the
center of Nova Roma and my home-province it isn't easy to find ways to
serve SPQR. Maybe serving for a year as Rogator would be one way of serving
Pro Patria? Before I descide if I will be a candidate I would ike to know:

1. How do I practically tally the votes?
2. How many elections are there?
3. How many voters in each election and how many votes?
4. How many days during and immediately after the December elections?
5. What are my "counting tool" that I would have to have "prepared"?
6. More things I need to know?
7. How many hours totaly would it be at the most?

I could start working with the procedure at 18/11 at the earliest time! Is
that a problem?

If I get positive (for me) answers I would be interested in a post as
Rogator. But let's wait until I have thought over the answers, then I will
give a clear respons..

I woud do this to increase the glory of my gens - Fabia and our beloved Res
Pubica!

Ave et salve

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	[Fwd: Re: [novaroma] In re the Resignation of the Rogator]
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 07 Oct 2000 20:30:52 -0600

Meant this for the list...

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] In re the Resignation of the Rogator
Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 20:30:13 -0600
From: gmvick32@--------
Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
To: Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
References: <v04011703b605780a5034@[62.20.183.222]>

Salve, Quintilianus:

I will do my best to answer your questions privately, and
you may wish to talk
with Senators Labienus Fortunatus or Vedius Germanicus (or
any Senator) as
well.

Vale,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia

Christer Edling wrote:

> Livia Cornelia Aurelia wrote:
>
> >Salvete Omnes:
>
> >For anybody interested in the Rogatorship, let me just
> >assure you that I've been
> >studying what the position requires, and the work is fairly
> >minimal. What we
> >need immediately is somebody besides me to independently
> >tally the vote results
> >in December. I think it is fair to say you would be looking
> >at no more than 1-2
> >hours a day during and immediately after the December
> >election, plus a handful
> >of hours over a weekend before the elections getting up to
> >speed on the voting
> >regulations and getting your counting tool prepared.
> >
> >One qualification is that anybody serving as Rogator is
> >ineligible from standing
> >for office in the election they are moderating.
> >
> >If anybody has any questions, please feel free to ask me and
> >I'll try to answer
> >them or find the best answer for you.
> >
> >Vale,
> >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> >Rogator Suffecti
>
> Salve!
>
> I am a new citizen, living in Provincia Thule. At this range between the
> center of Nova Roma and my home-province it isn't easy to find ways to
> serve SPQR. Maybe serving for a year as Rogator would be one way of serving
> Pro Patria? Before I descide if I will be a candidate I would ike to know:
>
> 1. How do I practically tally the votes?
> 2. How many elections are there?
> 3. How many voters in each election and how many votes?
> 4. How many days during and immediately after the December elections?
> 5. What are my "counting tool" that I would have to have "prepared"?
> 6. More things I need to know?
> 7. How many hours totaly would it be at the most?
>
> I could start working with the procedure at 18/11 at the earliest time! Is
> that a problem?
>
> If I get positive (for me) answers I would be interested in a post as
> Rogator. But let's wait until I have thought over the answers, then I will
> give a clear respons..
>
> I woud do this to increase the glory of my gens - Fabia and our beloved Res
> Pubica!
>
> Ave et salve
>
> Christer Edling
> alias
> Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
> ************************************************
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
> "I'll either find a way or make one"
> ************************************************
> "Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
> ************************************************
> SHAMALI SALUKIS
> ************************************************
> CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
> Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
> ************************************************
> IF GAMES - If reality was different!
> Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
> ************************************************
> MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
> ************************************************
> PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
> DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
> MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80


Subject:	[novaroma] Information for Potential Rogatores
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Oct 2000 02:53:10 -0500

T Labienus Quiritibus S P D

Anyone interested in becoming a rogator can learn more about the job by
reading the Rogator�s Handbook, which I have uploaded to the novaroma
list�s files area at http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/Documents/
. It is a file named �De Rogatorio Labore.doc,� and is in Word 2000
format. If you need a different file format, or cannot access the
eGroups Web site, contact me privately at labienus@-------- and I will
try to accommodate you.

Note that Lex Iunia Magistratum Aetate requires that applicants for the
position be at least 21 years old, and that rogatores may not run for
any position--including rogator--in an election in which they count the
votes.

Valete


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Information for Potential Rogatores
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Oct 2000 05:52:44 -0700 (PDT)

Ave!

As one of those who has put their name in the running
for this office, I am thankful for this posting. I am
happy to say that I meet all the qualifications and am
not dissuaded by the list of duties.

L A Dalmaticus

--- Fortunatus <labienus@--------> wrote:
> T Labienus Quiritibus S P D
>
> Anyone interested in becoming a rogator can learn
> more about the job by
> reading the Rogator�s Handbook, which I have
> uploaded to the novaroma
> list�s files area at
> http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/Documents/

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"Half of the world's misery comes from ignorance. The other half comes from intelligence." - Bonar Thompson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[novaroma] Rogators and Common Sense
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Oct 2000 14:04:05 +0100

Salutem vobis O Quiriti

(Sucks in a deep breath, counts to ten...) Quaerit Sulla:

> Must you ask! I would think it would have been obvious....one, I am a
member of
> the NR list....and so far only 2 candidates have offered their services.

So far. Do try to be more optimistic about the goodwill of our citizens, O
Censor.

> > I agree. But an attitude that assumes people don't want to know is
something
> > we DON'T need in Nova Roma. Perhaps if we all used that little word "if"
> > rather more than the word "when" in our deliberations, things might go
> > better.
>
> Who is assuming that attitude?

You did, when you said: >How can the Senate establish four when we dont have
that many people who are interested in applying?<

> There were other issues such as the Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate, since
2 of
> the three applicants were under age. One of them dropped out while the
matter
> was in deliberations with the Senate, the other was rejected. So there
are
> other issues that we must be concerned with other than taking everyone who
> applied.

This is the relevant extract from the stated Lex:

IV. No person shall assume any office of the Vigintisexviri until he or she
has reached the age of 21.

Now I note with interest that the Senate nonetheless regarded itself as
empowered to debate the matter of an under-age applicant, so the Lex is
clearly prescriptive, not proscriptive.

> > Now we're in the same fix again. Of course it may just so happen
> > that we get only one applicant, in which case it would still make sense
to
> > continue to trawl for more until we get more. Or risk our democratic
> > processes being disrupted yet again, which I'm sure nobody wants. Nonne,
> > Sulla?
> >
>
> No one does..but we must be legal. The LEX VEDIA VIGINTISEXVIRI calls for
two.
> If we want more than we need to change that.

The stated Lex does not stipulate that there shall be no more than two.
There is therefore no need to change the law. Nor is there any law
prohibiting the establishment of a reservist
list of prosuffecti who can be called on in an emergency. The law, again,
is prescriptive, not proscriptive - surely you appreciate the difference?
Here's the relevant extract:

IV. Rogatores. Two rogatores (voting officials) shall be responsible for the
administration of elections and the recording of votes among the curia. The
rogatores shall have the authority to appoint his own scribae, should he
deem it necessary. Should one or both positions be vacant, and suitable and
willing candidates are available, an election shall be held within thirty
days in the comitia populi tributa; otherwise the Senate shall have the
authority to appoint rogatores pro tem until such an election can be held.
Inasmuch as they, by definition, are privy to the details of the election
process, the rogatores may not run for any office while they serve in office
(including running for rogatorus again).

Alteris verbis, we may have two serving Rogatores, but any number of
prosuffecti Rogatores in reserve. Isn't this simple common sense?

> > Besides, we have an establishment of many posts in NR which have
remained
> > vacant since Day One. This does not justify our ceasing to attempt to
fill
> > these established positions, either. The posts are there because
somebody
> > thought it
> > was a good idea.
>
> True and your point?

My point was to make clear to you (since you did not apparently understand),
that supernumerary official posts evinces a positive attitude, as opposed to
the negative one you are clearly displaying. Romulus ploughed a limen rather
bigger than his hut and his turnip-patch. So must we.

Let us have an end to legalistic nit-picking. Ericius has promised to bring
the idea of four Rogatores before the Senate for a debate and a vote, as was
evidently done before. But if a new law really has to be drafted, and such
as you insist on that, then the elections will have been deliberately put in
jeopardy. I think you are being unnecessarily difficult, and I for one find
that extremely disappointing in a senior magistrate.

Bene valete,

Vado.


Subject:	[novaroma] Away...
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:06:50 -0500 (CDT)

I will be in St. Louis all next week for an Java Servlet and EJB class.
My network access will be somewhat limited during that time; thus
there will be no major updates to the site's functionality. I do have
someone available to watch the server while I am away. The network
connection has been very reliable and I expect no problems.

As always, Curator A. Gryllus will be able to modify the site content.

Valete, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/


Subject:	[novaroma] New Citizen Appointment
From:	molentje@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Oct 2000 14:57:08 -0000

Si valete valeo!

I am Christiana, accepted into gens Maria, province of Canada
Occidentalis, on September 30, 2000. By way of introduction, I am
both worker and student and have been following your discussions from
the sidelines for some time, waiting to join in until I had read the
Constitution of Nova Roma, toured the Nova Roma site, and joined a
familia. My interests are in all things Roman, with a particular
interest in the language of Rome, in her laws and lawgivers, and in
the process and product of pax Romana.

I look forward to meeting everyone and sharing in your discourse as
time goes on, as the political wrangling of the few hopefully gives
way to discussion of matters of general interest omnibus incolis
Novae Romae (to all inhabitants of New Rome).

Legum serva sum ut libera esse possum.
(I am a slave of the law so that I might be free)

Pax vobiscum et valete!


Subject:	[novaroma] In the latest Explorator
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Oct 2000 11:55:58 -0600

Items of interest from issue 3.22 of my newsletter:

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

Gratias vobis ago for the heads up to: Sujazz, Arnd Lis, Bill Kennedy, (as
always, with hopes that I didn't leave anyone out!).

THE BIG NEWS

This week's big news is the discovery of an undisturbed, apparently royal
tomb in Syria dating to about 2300 B.C./B.C.E. by a team from Johns Hopkins
(watch the wrap on the Telegraph piece):

http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/jhu-ada100300.html
http://www.arabia.com/article/0,1690,Life|30297,00.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com:80/releases/2000/10/001002181619.htm
http://www.foxnews.com:80/science/100600/tomb.sml
http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/20001004/hi_syriatomb.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000405944438668&rtmo=Qxam9HzR&atmo=hhhhhhhe&pg=/et/00/10/4/wmet04.html

OLD WORLD NEWS

Also potentially becoming big news (but discovered by a Canadian team and
so not getting the exposure it might have received initially elsewhere ...
there will probably be more next week), is the report of the discovery of a
pre-Roman Illyrian sanctuary in Croatia:

http://www.ngnews.com/news/2000/10/10032000/illyrian_3102.asp
http://library.northernlight.com/FB20001002570000075.html?cb=0&dx=1006&sc=0#doc
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20001002_79.html

This should probably be a followup, but there is quite a bit of coverage
about the 'saving' of Zeugma's artifacts:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_73868.html
http://abcnews.go.com:80/sections/science/DailyNews/turkish_city001002.html
http://library.northernlight.com/EC20001002330000027.html?cb=0&dx=1006&sc=0#doc

... a good background piece on Zeugma is in the latest issue of Archaeology
Odyssey (more on this issue below):

http://www.bib-arch.org/aond00/flood.html

Discovery.com has a good piece on what bone analysis from remains coming
from 5th-century Magna Graecia tell us about the original owner of the
bones (awk!):

http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/20001003/hi_athlete.html

CLASSICISTS' CORNER

Disney.com has launched a new thing called 'Last Minute Book Reports'
designed to summarize in an interesting way various bits of literature at a
kid's level. The 'debut' presentation is on Homer's Odyssey and actually is
not bad (if you're a teacher of kids at this level) or horrible (if you're
the type to nitpick). In either case it's worth checking out ... you'll
need the Flash plug in on your browser (hint: while loading you'll see a
screen with a kid supposedly writing stuff; in the lower left corner of
that screen you'll see the word Loading ... ... when it changes to "Skip
intro", click on it or you might lose interest ... on a 56k modem expect to
wait 2-3 minutes for the whole thing to load:

http://www.Disney.com/lastminute

Some folks might be interested to know that Empire Magazine conducted a
poll and Maximus the Gladiator was voted the sexiest male movie character
... of course, the same magazine voted Princess Leia as the sexiest female
movie character ... go figure (there's a pun in there somewhere):

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/tim/2000/10/02/timnwsnws03012.html

ARCHAEOLOGY HOLLYWOOD STYLE

On the Hollywood side of things, folks might be interested to know that
'The Rock' will be reprising his role as the Scorpion King (from the
Mummy), and Angelina Jolie's real life dad will be playing her father when
she plays the role of Lara Croft:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/entertainment/DailyNews/Casting000928.html

AT ABOUT.COM

Ancient History Guide latest feature is on Ted Hughes' translation of the
Oresteia:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa100300a.htm?terms=a1

Latin Guide Janet Burns' latest is on case endings:

http://latin.about.com/library/weekly/aa100200a.htm

ON THE NEWSSTANDS

Archaeology Odyssey has a new issue out with some really good stuff:

On ancient Carthage:

http://www.bib-arch.org/aond00/carthage1.html

On a debate whether the Carthaginians really did sacrifice kiddies to
Ba'al/Moloch:

http://www.bib-arch.org/aond00/debate-n.html
http://www.bib-arch.org/aond00/debate-y.html

The TOC (with links to a couple of other features):

http://www.bib-arch.org/aod2.html


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1036
From:	"LegionXXIV" <legionXXIV@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Oct 2000 12:10:38 -0400

Livia:

I, Gallio Velius Marsallas, Tribune Militaris; offer
my services as Rogatore and the legionary force of
Legion XXIV to monitor the polls for upcoming elections.

Please advise as to what is really involved here other
than counting votes.

I should be able to help out.

Yours in service to the New Rome

Gallio / George Metz 610-353-4982

Livia wrote in Digest 1036
As the current Rogator suffecti, I have the utmost
confidence that another Rogator will be located that
is acceptable to the Senate. I am ready to assist
the Senate in any way they need to identify my new
colleague, although I also know that they have this
situation well in hand. Mostly, I stand ready to
exercise my office in service to our res publica, and am
confident that another Nova Roman will step forward
to do the same. I'm really looking forward to doing this!

For anybody interested in the Rogatorship, let me just
assure you that I've been
studying what the position requires, and the work is fairly
minimal. What we need immediately is somebody besides me
to independently tally the vote results in December.
I think it is fair to say you would be looking at no more than 1-2
hours a day during and immediately after the December
election, plus a handful
of hours over a weekend before the elections getting up to
speed on the voting
regulations and getting your counting tool prepared.

One qualification is that anybody serving as Rogator is
ineligible from standing
for office in the election they are moderating.

If anybody has any questions, please feel free to ask me and
I'll try to answer
them or find the best answer for you.

Vale,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Rogator Suffecti


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogators and Common Sense
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Oct 2000 10:51:29 -0700

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Nick Ford wrote:
>
> > Salutem vobis O Quiriti
> >
> > (Sucks in a deep breath, counts to ten...) Quaerit Sulla:
> >
>
> Dont worry I will be nice this time. :)
>
> >
> > > Must you ask! I would think it would have been obvious....one, I am a
> > member of
> > > the NR list....and so far only 2 candidates have offered their services.
> >
> > So far. Do try to be more optimistic about the goodwill of our citizens, O
> > Censor.
> >
> > > > I agree. But an attitude that assumes people don't want to know is
> > something
> > > > we DON'T need in Nova Roma. Perhaps if we all used that little word "if"
> > > > rather more than the word "when" in our deliberations, things might go
> > > > better.
> > >
> > > Who is assuming that attitude?
> >
> > You did, when you said: >How can the Senate establish four when we dont have
> > that many people who are interested in applying?<
> >
>
> I dont think so. I was just pointing out the facts. :)
>
> >
> > > There were other issues such as the Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate, since
> > 2 of
> > > the three applicants were under age. One of them dropped out while the
> > matter
> > > was in deliberations with the Senate, the other was rejected. So there
> > are
> > > other issues that we must be concerned with other than taking everyone who
> > > applied.
> >
> > This is the relevant extract from the stated Lex:
> >
> > IV. No person shall assume any office of the Vigintisexviri until he or she
> > has reached the age of 21.
> >
> > Now I note with interest that the Senate nonetheless regarded itself as
> > empowered to debate the matter of an under-age applicant, so the Lex is
> > clearly prescriptive, not proscriptive.
> >
>
> Sure the Senate can debate. Just like the Senate debated potential incoming
> Senators. But, that doesnt mean they are going to be approved. I am a bit
> cautious when it comes to interpreting Leges. According to the Lex Iunia,
>

Oops....I was going to comment on what the Lex Iunia states in regards for under age
citizens can do to get a exemption. But the NR site is down. :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogators and Common Sense
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:54:27 -0500

Salvete gentlemen

Let us not come to blows on this. What you are saying, Vado, makes
perfect sense right up to the part where you suggest that because the law
does not say "no more than two" we are free to have as many as we want.
The law says "Should one or both positions...." - that means there *two*
positions. There should be more, but the law doesn't provide for it. The
law needs amending. We can't simply ignore it because it has proven
inconvenient (not to say unworkable). Perhaps Britain should elect two
Prime Ministers and cabinets - I'm sure the law there doesn't say "no
more than one." The constitution of the U.S.A. doesn't "forbid" electing
more than one President - they could elect four, and then when one need
to be removed from office it wouldn't be such a problem.

As far as I understand it, an election *cannot* be held to elect a second
rogator, because both rogators are required to count the votes from an
election. So that clause in the law is self-contradictory. If one rogator
were all that were rquired to do the job, the vacancy of the second post
would not be such a crisis.

Since it actually *cannot* be filled by election, it must be filled by a
Senatorial appointment. That may be our safety provision, since the
Senate *should be able* to appoint someone immediately to fill an urgent
need. They could even appoint one of their own if they chose or if no
suitable candidates volunteered for the office.

On 10/8/00 8:04 AM Nick Ford (gens_moravia@--------)
wrote:

>The stated Lex does not stipulate that there shall be no more than two.
>There is therefore no need to change the law. Nor is there any law
>prohibiting the establishment of a reservist
>list of prosuffecti who can be called on in an emergency. The law, again,
>is prescriptive, not proscriptive - surely you appreciate the difference?
>Here's the relevant extract:
>
>IV. Rogatores. Two rogatores (voting officials) shall be responsible for the
>administration of elections and the recording of votes among the curia. The
>rogatores shall have the authority to appoint his own scribae, should he
>deem it necessary. Should one or both positions be vacant, and suitable and
>willing candidates are available, an election shall be held within thirty
>days in the comitia populi tributa; otherwise the Senate shall have the
>authority to appoint rogatores pro tem until such an election can be held.
>Inasmuch as they, by definition, are privy to the details of the election
>process, the rogatores may not run for any office while they serve in office
>(including running for rogatorus again).
>
>Alteris verbis, we may have two serving Rogatores, but any number of
>prosuffecti Rogatores in reserve. Isn't this simple common sense?
>
[snip]
>.............. Romulus ploughed a limen rather
>bigger than his hut and his turnip-patch. So must we.
I like that!
>
>Let us have an end to legalistic nit-picking. Ericius has promised to bring
>the idea of four Rogatores before the Senate for a debate and a vote, as was
>evidently done before. But if a new law really has to be drafted, and such
>as you insist on that, then the elections will have been deliberately put in
>jeopardy. I think you are being unnecessarily difficult, and I for one find
>that extremely disappointing in a senior magistrate.

A new law *cannot be passed* until there are two rogatores to count the
votes. That is why this *one* vacancy must be filled now by Senatorial
appointment. The general election cannot be postponed until a law is
passed, because a law cannot be passed if we don't have two rogatores,
and when we have two rogatores, the election can be carried on, to
include a Constitutional amendement or a new law addressing the number of
rogatorial positions.
>
>Bene valete,
>
>Vado.
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rogators and Common Sense
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Oct 2000 10:48:03 -0700

Nick Ford wrote:

> Salutem vobis O Quiriti
>
> (Sucks in a deep breath, counts to ten...) Quaerit Sulla:
>

Dont worry I will be nice this time. :)

>
> > Must you ask! I would think it would have been obvious....one, I am a
> member of
> > the NR list....and so far only 2 candidates have offered their services.
>
> So far. Do try to be more optimistic about the goodwill of our citizens, O
> Censor.
>
> > > I agree. But an attitude that assumes people don't want to know is
> something
> > > we DON'T need in Nova Roma. Perhaps if we all used that little word "if"
> > > rather more than the word "when" in our deliberations, things might go
> > > better.
> >
> > Who is assuming that attitude?
>
> You did, when you said: >How can the Senate establish four when we dont have
> that many people who are interested in applying?<
>

I dont think so. I was just pointing out the facts. :)

>
> > There were other issues such as the Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate, since
> 2 of
> > the three applicants were under age. One of them dropped out while the
> matter
> > was in deliberations with the Senate, the other was rejected. So there
> are
> > other issues that we must be concerned with other than taking everyone who
> > applied.
>
> This is the relevant extract from the stated Lex:
>
> IV. No person shall assume any office of the Vigintisexviri until he or she
> has reached the age of 21.
>
> Now I note with interest that the Senate nonetheless regarded itself as
> empowered to debate the matter of an under-age applicant, so the Lex is
> clearly prescriptive, not proscriptive.
>

Sure the Senate can debate. Just like the Senate debated potential incoming
Senators. But, that doesnt mean they are going to be approved. I am a bit
cautious when it comes to interpreting Leges. According to the Lex Iunia,

>
> > > Now we're in the same fix again. Of course it may just so happen
> > > that we get only one applicant, in which case it would still make sense
> to
> > > continue to trawl for more until we get more. Or risk our democratic
> > > processes being disrupted yet again, which I'm sure nobody wants. Nonne,
> > > Sulla?
> > >
> >
> > No one does..but we must be legal. The LEX VEDIA VIGINTISEXVIRI calls for
> two.
> > If we want more than we need to change that.
>
> The stated Lex does not stipulate that there shall be no more than two.
> There is therefore no need to change the law. Nor is there any law
> prohibiting the establishment of a reservist
> list of prosuffecti who can be called on in an emergency. The law, again,
> is prescriptive, not proscriptive - surely you appreciate the difference?
> Here's the relevant extract:
>

Once again you are making a very big leap. I would like to get comments from
the Praetors and for that matter, Flavius Vedius Germanicus, since he wrote the
text. Since it is my opinion that this opinion does not comply with the spirit
of the Lex.

>
> IV. Rogatores. Two rogatores (voting officials) shall be responsible for the
> administration of elections and the recording of votes among the curia. The
> rogatores shall have the authority to appoint his own scribae, should he
> deem it necessary. Should one or both positions be vacant, and suitable and
> willing candidates are available, an election shall be held within thirty
> days in the comitia populi tributa; otherwise the Senate shall have the
> authority to appoint rogatores pro tem until such an election can be held.
> Inasmuch as they, by definition, are privy to the details of the election
> process, the rogatores may not run for any office while they serve in office
> (including running for rogatorus again).
>
> Alteris verbis, we may have two serving Rogatores, but any number of
> prosuffecti Rogatores in reserve. Isn't this simple common sense?
>

No I dont think it is. I think its a good idea but I definately think we would
need to rework the Lex. Becuase the precedent that would be established would
be scary. Remember, we must look at the established precedent. I am not trying
to be difficult, I know your idea would be easier for NR in the longrun, but we
must look at the unforseen consequence. :)

>
> > > Besides, we have an establishment of many posts in NR which have
> remained
> > > vacant since Day One. This does not justify our ceasing to attempt to
> fill
> > > these established positions, either. The posts are there because
> somebody
> > > thought it
> > > was a good idea.
> >
> > True and your point?
>
> My point was to make clear to you (since you did not apparently understand),
> that supernumerary official posts evinces a positive attitude, as opposed to
> the negative one you are clearly displaying. Romulus ploughed a limen rather
> bigger than his hut and his turnip-patch. So must we.
>

I dont believe I am trying to protray a negative attitude. Remember Vado, it
was during Decius Iunius and my Consulship that we particularly had to beg the
People to run for office last year. I try to do my very best to get people
interested in NR both serving its community and running for offices. I try to
be approachable for all of our citizens in the event that I can answer their
questions about the various officies, since I have direct experience in most of
them. :)

>
> Let us have an end to legalistic nit-picking. Ericius has promised to bring
> the idea of four Rogatores before the Senate for a debate and a vote, as was
> evidently done before. But if a new law really has to be drafted, and such
> as you insist on that, then the elections will have been deliberately put in
> jeopardy. I think you are being unnecessarily difficult, and I for one find
> that extremely disappointing in a senior magistrate.
>

I am sorry you call this legalistic nit-picking, but, I dont think we can stop.
I think the Lex is rather clear on it. You don't. I would like to get the
opinions of some other of our magistrates. I recognize it would be easier for
NR to go the short route, but would it really be better? The precedent that
this would establish might not be healthy, and in my opinion it would run
counter to the spirit of the Lex. I know Ericius said he would do that, and I
will voice my same opinion in the Senate as I am right her.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

>
> Bene valete,
>
> Vado.