| Subject: |
[novaroma] Legions |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:12:32 -0700 |
|
I have some friends of mine who need to know the names of Various Roman Legions. Specifically Late Republic/Early Empire. I am very limited in terms of my knowledge in this area can anyone help me?
They need the full name of the Legion, if that is the correct phrasing. :)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Timor Vadonis (Vadophobia) |
| From: |
"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@--------> |
| Date: |
Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:44:39 GMT |
|
Mariae Christianae salutem
Scripsisti:
>I am in agreement with you, Vado, that all have a right to
>participate in debate and a right to make and re-make the laws.
>I only wonder, why do more not do so? (Do you frighten them away, >Vado,
>with your certainties?)
You must have missed my story about the elephant and the three blind men.
>I do, at times, look around me in any forum, and see timid souls who
>might, indeed, have an opinion, and who are yet afraid to voice that
>opinion in the face of an aggressive stance taken by others. I care
>little for the "survival of the fittest" concept, Roman as it is
>thought to be, believing instead that it is incumbent upon the
> >strong-minded and strong of voice, to lend a little of their >strength to
>the quieter ones, to encourage them to speak up (or at >least whisper more
>loudly).
In my experience of organisations which people choose to join and leave,
whether trade unions or historical re-creation societies, or this cultural
and political dream of Nova Roma, about ten per cent of the people do one
hundred per cent of the work. I have never noticed the remaining ninety per
cent being unwilling to help out because they're too terrified of the other
ten per cent. They simply have other commitments or fewer resources - and
soon, it gets done or said by someone else - that's all there is to it.
>Is it the timid ones who have slipped away from NR since its earlier >days,
>fearful of raising their voices lest they raise the ire of the >Vados
>amongst you?
A number of enthusiastic NoviRomani who spoke their minds, and who were my
friends, have either left NR, or quiesced, in the past twelvemonth. You
probably wouldn't have liked them. They sometimes said bad things without
using question marks.
As Sulla says, all kinds of Roman interest are represented here - though
people who post about their special interests are sometimes told to go away
by others who aren't interested because it's thought off-topic, or not
Roman enough. That, if anything, is what I think puts people off posting to
this list. But as a result, a dozen different special Roman interest NR
e-lists have been started by people who, I assure you, may not be posting
here, but they are not too timid to say their piece there on the things they
care about.
Some of us have invested a lot of time and other resources into NR, and we
are gratified when it seems to grow, as folk join. But if what you say about
cives just wandering away is at all true, then perhaps we are not really
growing at all, and our efforts are self-negating. This requires some
serious thought as to how we can i) check; and ii) fix it if need be.
Actually our Sodalis Egressus, in developing its 'Outreach Program', is also
thinking about something to this end. Why not join us, if you want to help
make a difference?
>In the end, N. Moravius Vado, I continue to remain a slave to the
>law. This does not, please note, preclude my working toward the
>betterment of that law. I may not agree with a law as it stands, I
>may well work toward remaking a law, yet the law is a starting >point.
That's fine as long as everyone can agree on what a given law actually
means. This is currently not so in some cases, and so this is why some form
of judicial review is needed, by the closest we in NR have to experts in
modern and ancient Roman law.
>Verbum sapientibus ... it is the law, Vado, that guarantees you your
>right to speak also.
There has been some abuse of that law lately. Ask around. Some will deny it.
Keep asking around. Read the archives. See who has spoken about what. Then
perhaps you'll be better informed, and your comments better directed and
more constructive.
Bene disce,
Vado.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Legions |
| From: |
"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:58:59 -0300 |
|
--
On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:12:32
L. Cornelius Sulla wrote:
>I have some friends of mine who need to know the names of Various Roman Legions. Specifically Late Republic/Early Empire. I am very limited in terms of my knowledge in this area can anyone help me?
>
>They need the full name of the Legion, if that is the correct phrasing. :)
>
>Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
I found a list of legions from Caesar to III century.
The list is big, its easy to give the URL:
http://www.digitator.fi/roma/frames/tables/list_legiones.htm
Its interesting to note that the legions 17, 18 and 19, destroyed in the famous Varian Disaster, doenst have names, only numbers. Perhaps the names were lost or forgot.
Marcus Arminius Maior
m_arminius@--------
Provincia Brasilia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Calendar: Idus or Eidus |
| From: |
"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:03:44 -0300 |
|
Salve
When i was reading a book, i saw a depiction of a republican roman calendar. The ides are marked by the word "EID" or "EIDUS".
In the same book, i saw a coin with the inscription
"EID MART", the ides of march, coined by the republicans that killed Caesar.
But in the Nova Roma site, the roman dates uses the word "Idus". Are this a option to the novaroman archives, or a small mistake? Or a even ancient tradition that uses "IDUS"?
Marcus Arminius Maior
Provincia Brasilia
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Reply to Timor Vadonis (Vadophobia) |
| From: |
molentje@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:20:58 -0000 |
|
N. Moravius Vado, salve! Omnes salvete!
My apologies for the length of this missive, but I would establish a
foundation under, and some boundaries around, me.
Thank you, Vado, for your comments and the soul-searching they
indicate. There is a point or two I ask further clarification on, if
you would be so kind, and I'll amble along to that in a bit.
First … I, too, have been a member of other organizations for
some
years. My experience has been similar to yours – I agree much of
the
work is done by the few. But may we take it a step further and ask
why that is? To be sure, as you say, some have more time and more
resources than others. But my experience (and who is to say that my
experience is more or less valuable than yours, or yours mine?) has
been that some activists have a vision of the mission of an
organization that they, in their drive to "get it done," do
not take
the time to share with other members of the organization. There is an
inner "cadre" that is unwilling to make it clear to all what
is
intended ("You wouldn't understand"), unable to delegate
or accept
help ("it would take more time to explain it to you than it would
take me to do it"), and that sees it as critical to have it done
now,
rather than to have it done by all who would participate but who
would take more time in the doing. There is, in some organizations,
too, an elite in-crowd that discourages active involvement by others.
(For example, only in dire emergency did Rome allow slaves to
participate in the defence of the nation in which the slaves, too,
lived.)
That is NOT to say that Nova Roma is such an organization. I trust it
is not, but have no way of knowing whether it is or not, not having
been part of things from the get-go. We are speaking here of
organizations in general. My comments follow upon your own.
Be it known here, I do admire your micronation! I think Nova Roma is
an excellent and helpful site to visitors, which is how I first came
to Nova Roma. I wonder, though, how it goes for inhabitants, as well
as visitors? There is an "edge" to some of the e-group
discussions
that is to me, at least, a bit off-putting. I'm aware that you
have
known each other for some time, and it is in the nature of insiders,
such as family, to play off each other. Yet to a newcomer to NR it
may appear unwelcoming and elitist. And without newcomers, NR will
not grow, if it is, in fact, an intention of NR to do so. (Now I
confess to being one who leans to the "reason over passion"
side of
things, so my comments now and in future must be viewed in that
light.)
In any event, my sincere thanks to all those who labored long to lay
the foundations of Nova Roma. You would do well to congratulate
yourselves many times over!
Here now, Vado, is a part that puzzles me:
"A number of enthusiastic NoviRomani who spoke their minds, and
who
wer (sic) friends, have either left NR, or quiesced, in the past
twelvemonth."
Left, yes, I can see that happening. But "quiesced" I
don't
understand. Quiesced to what, and why, and with what significance?
Can you help me with this bit, Vado?
And I ask, please, that you take care with public assumptions:
"You
probably wouldn't have liked them." Vado, you may, of course,
think "probably" about anything or anyone, including me, yet
I ask,
please, hold your thinking private until you know me better? You have
no way, at this point, of knowing what I "probably" would
like or not
like, do or not do, because you, at this point, do not know me well
enough to make such public assumptions. Or make such assumptions
public.
But your whole passage here leaves me puzzled. I'm not sure of
the
intent of it, nor the full meaning of it, and I am uncomfortable with
the word "quiesced." I know its meaning – I just feel on
quicksand
with its use. I am nervous around those who "quiesce" (do you
mean "acquiesce" – for my Webster's does not contain
"quiesce"?) and
more nervous around those who accept the quiescence of others. I
seek, please, clarification on this point.
Nor do I understand the part about people "saying bad things with
using question marks." There is little point, Vado, in using
inside
allusions to an outsider, unless you explain the allusions. If your
comments are intended to explain something to me, they've missed
their mark. (Perhaps I had my head down at that point, trying to miss
the slings and arrows...) In any event, when I, myself, use question
marks, it is because I, myself, have questions.
Well, yes, I am sure all sorts of Roman interests are represented
here. I thought, indeed, that that was the point of Nova Roma. What I
saw, as a visitor before I applied for citizenship, was that in your
e-group, some not too Roman interests (I hesitate to say again, but
for the purpose of explaining what I mean here, the lengthy debate on
the "reply feature") that culminated in a vote. If there are
"a dozen
different special Roman interest e-groups" it would be helpful to
us
newcomers still deciding if we want to stay, or deciding in which
part of town we wish to take up residence, to know about them –
such
as, what they are, where they are, and whether they are open to
newcomers with similar interests. Again, I stress that I am new here.
I have noticed a few additional newcomers to this group, and perhaps
they, too, would be interested to know about other groups? Speaking
only for myself, some very clear maps would be appreciated for those
of us who are at times directionally challenged.
Thank you for your information about Sodalis Egressus. I will look
into it. "If you want to make a difference," you say. Well,
at this
point, I am unsure. Again, as a relative newcomer, I don't know
yet
what I want of Nova Roma, except information that I find useful in my
slow crawl towards my degree in Classical Studies. Nor do I know what
I might offer in exchange for what I take. Time will tell.
Finally, to your comments on the law. We are in agreement, I tremble
to say, on one point at least. I agree with you that not all are in
agreement as to what a given law means. But here's where I wander
off
from your point of view: I believe, for lawyers, law courts at
various levels, and interested onlookers, disagreement on a given law
is a good thing. It may be the basis for lovely debates on that law,
for thinking, for progress. Indeed, Vado, disagreement on a given law
are the foundation and lifeblood of all who love the law and who
would keep alive the law and a nation ruled by law!
A final "finally…" You say, "Read the archives. See who
has spoken
about what…" Vado, again, you make public assumptions about one
whom
you know not. I have read past discussions. Your e-group kindly
retains its records to enable one to do that. I have seen who has
said what about whatever and whomever. Not since its inception, as
yet, but I do read back further as time permits.
Again, your comments puzzle me. It would seem there is a
"hurt"
behind your final words: "there has been some abuse of that law
lately." Yet, Vado, you appear to give as good as you get. If
there
is abuse, it appears (from the comments I have read) to go both ways.
And is it sometimes a question of perception? One man's
"abuse" is
another's lively discussion, with no harm intended on either
side?
Well, if there is offence to be taken, there are those who will take
it.
We all, in all aspects of life, might be better informed about
everything, admittedly myself included. It's tough to keep up
with
all sides of every issue and take in all points of view on
everything. Certainly, some of my comments may not be well informed
–
that's why I make them. If one wants to be better informed, one has
at times, and alas, to publicly display one's abysmal ignorance
in
order to elicit guidance from one's betters (and
better-informed). I
welcome constructive guidance from anyone who has walked the road
before me.
My questions, Vado (and others listening), about those who might
wander away from NR, are simply that: questions. Recognizing the
excellence and good intentions of the Nova Roma web site, I wondered
why there is more discussion in the e-group I have accessed (this
one) on non-Roman issues, and why the records show more participation
over past months than currently. I see your name and your comments,
some of which, confess, Vado, do have an "edge" to them, and
wonder
what is behind it. The wonderings of a newcomer, Vado. Nothing more.
I stumbled into town, and wondered what sort of place it was. I
didn't come with the intention of re-building what I did not help
lay
the foundations of in the first place. I don't know what mix of
things went into the foundation, but see no harm in wondering about
this. It is not a challenge, only the wonderings of one who is
curious about how the world is made. I don't know the population
of
Nova Roma except from their words. Your words, Vado, are sometimes
harsh.
I came in peace, Vado. No challenge to anyone's auctoritas or
dignitas intended. By no means do I mean to be "constructive"
in a
place until I know what there is to be constructed. I echo the
thoughts of Titus Coruncanius Rufus, who recently introduced himself,
and then asked "what is the next step?" What is next for a
newcomer
to Nova Roma, once he or she has stumbled upon your site, gained
citizenship, and entered the forum? Are we meant to look on from the
sidelines only? If so, be not surprised that some of us will quietly
(or otherwise) move on.
And to L Cornelius Sulla – I well understand that Rome was not
built
in a day. (I can guess at the time frame of Rome's construction by
the length of time it has taken me to get where I've got to so far in
my studies! The longer it took to build the blasted place, the longer
it takes for students of Rome to learn about it all!) I guess my
question here is, is Rome - i.e. Nova Roma – built? Finished? Is
it
a thing done and requiring no further construction? If so, why do you
say you encourage newcomers?
T Coruncanius Rufus had a good question, I thought. Where is Nova
Roma going next? And what, if anything, do you see for anyone joining
you to be doing? What, Vado, is the "work" that some of the
90% of us
might be taking on? I, for one, am here, awaiting your guidance.
Bene disco, Vado, si bene doces.
Omnes valete!
Christiana
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Reply to Timor Vadonis (Vadophobia) |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:41:23 -0700 |
|
Ave,
I hope you dont mind me commenting on this. I have been with NR since its
first day back in March 98.
molentje@-------- wrote:
> N. Moravius Vado, salve! Omnes salvete!
>
> My apologies for the length of this missive, but I would establish a
> foundation under, and some boundaries around, me.
>
> Thank you, Vado, for your comments and the soul-searching they
> indicate. There is a point or two I ask further clarification on, if
> you would be so kind, and I'll amble along to that in a bit.
>
> First … I, too, have been a member of other organizations for
> some
> years. My experience has been similar to yours – I agree much of
> the
> work is done by the few. But may we take it a step further and ask
> why that is? To be sure, as you say, some have more time and more
> resources than others. But my experience (and who is to say that my
> experience is more or less valuable than yours, or yours mine?) has
> been that some activists have a vision of the mission of an
> organization that they, in their drive to "get it done," do
> not take
> the time to share with other members of the organization. There is an
> inner "cadre" that is unwilling to make it clear to all what
> is
> intended ("You wouldn't understand"), unable to delegate
> or accept
> help ("it would take more time to explain it to you than it would
> take me to do it"), and that sees it as critical to have it done
> now,
> rather than to have it done by all who would participate but who
> would take more time in the doing. There is, in some organizations,
> too, an elite in-crowd that discourages active involvement by others.
> (For example, only in dire emergency did Rome allow slaves to
> participate in the defence of the nation in which the slaves, too,
> lived.)
>
Sulla: You might want to read the archieves on the egroups list. Becuase
NR has gone through those growing pains. While I am not going to bring up
the past, I will say that NR has gone through that period, it is very much
documented on the egroups.com website. While NR will continue to face
growing pains, I believe that NR has recovered from that period very
nicely. We have an open Senate now, with a clear means for people entering
the Senate.
>
> That is NOT to say that Nova Roma is such an organization. I trust it
> is not, but have no way of knowing whether it is or not, not having
> been part of things from the get-go. We are speaking here of
> organizations in general. My comments follow upon your own.
>
Sulla: Thats perfectly understandable, which is why I would like to refer
you to the egroups archieves. That was started in July 98, barely 3 months
after the creation of NR. That would give you the best history and the most
accurate evolution of NR. Our achievements and our troubles are documented
there. :)
>
> Be it known here, I do admire your micronation! I think Nova Roma is
> an excellent and helpful site to visitors, which is how I first came
> to Nova Roma. I wonder, though, how it goes for inhabitants, as well
> as visitors? There is an "edge" to some of the e-group
> discussions
> that is to me, at least, a bit off-putting. I'm aware that you
> have
> known each other for some time, and it is in the nature of insiders,
> such as family, to play off each other. Yet to a newcomer to NR it
> may appear unwelcoming and elitist. And without newcomers, NR will
> not grow, if it is, in fact, an intention of NR to do so. (Now I
> confess to being one who leans to the "reason over passion"
> side of
> things, so my comments now and in future must be viewed in that
> light.)
>
Well, in my experience with groups that tends to happen. The thing is when
people are approved for citizenship, the Censors, which I am one, advise all
of our new citizens that the best way to get to know us is to subscribe to
the NR list. That is the platform that we all share in common. Some of us
have been here since NR began or shortly after, therefore there are
relationships that build up and develop. It takes time for our new citizens
to reach that plane. But, if they dont post, we dont know if they are
there, since we cannot see all 268 people who are subscribed to the NR
list. Not to mention that, but I am sure there are others who are not
citizens on the NR list as well. :) But, the new citizens must take some
initative to actually introduce themselves at least. :) In essense our bark
is worse than our bite, even in the worst arguements that flair up.
>
> In any event, my sincere thanks to all those who labored long to lay
> the foundations of Nova Roma. You would do well to congratulate
> yourselves many times over!
>
Well, the foundation still isnt complete. :) At least I hope not. There is
alot of work to do to accomplish our goals. The more active and involved
citizens we get, the better NR will develop. :)
>
> Here now, Vado, is a part that puzzles me:
>
> "A number of enthusiastic NoviRomani who spoke their minds, and
> who
> wer (sic) friends, have either left NR, or quiesced, in the past
> twelvemonth."
>
> Left, yes, I can see that happening. But "quiesced" I
> don't
> understand. Quiesced to what, and why, and with what significance?
> Can you help me with this bit, Vado?
>
> And I ask, please, that you take care with public assumptions:
> "You
> probably wouldn't have liked them." Vado, you may, of course,
> think "probably" about anything or anyone, including me, yet
> I ask,
> please, hold your thinking private until you know me better? You have
> no way, at this point, of knowing what I "probably" would
> like or not
> like, do or not do, because you, at this point, do not know me well
> enough to make such public assumptions. Or make such assumptions
> public.
>
> But your whole passage here leaves me puzzled. I'm not sure of
> the
> intent of it, nor the full meaning of it, and I am uncomfortable with
> the word "quiesced." I know its meaning – I just feel on
> quicksand
> with its use. I am nervous around those who "quiesce" (do you
> mean "acquiesce" – for my Webster's does not contain
> "quiesce"?) and
> more nervous around those who accept the quiescence of others. I
> seek, please, clarification on this point.
>
> Nor do I understand the part about people "saying bad things with
> using question marks." There is little point, Vado, in using
> inside
> allusions to an outsider, unless you explain the allusions. If your
> comments are intended to explain something to me, they've missed
> their mark. (Perhaps I had my head down at that point, trying to miss
> the slings and arrows...) In any event, when I, myself, use question
> marks, it is because I, myself, have questions.
>
> Well, yes, I am sure all sorts of Roman interests are represented
> here. I thought, indeed, that that was the point of Nova Roma. What I
> saw, as a visitor before I applied for citizenship, was that in your
> e-group, some not too Roman interests (I hesitate to say again, but
> for the purpose of explaining what I mean here, the lengthy debate on
> the "reply feature") that culminated in a vote. If there are
> "a dozen
> different special Roman interest e-groups" it would be helpful to
> us
> newcomers still deciding if we want to stay, or deciding in which
> part of town we wish to take up residence, to know about them –
> such
> as, what they are, where they are, and whether they are open to
> newcomers with similar interests. Again, I stress that I am new here.
> I have noticed a few additional newcomers to this group, and perhaps
> they, too, would be interested to know about other groups? Speaking
> only for myself, some very clear maps would be appreciated for those
> of us who are at times directionally challenged.
>
> Thank you for your information about Sodalis Egressus. I will look
> into it. "If you want to make a difference," you say. Well,
> at this
> point, I am unsure. Again, as a relative newcomer, I don't know
> yet
> what I want of Nova Roma, except information that I find useful in my
> slow crawl towards my degree in Classical Studies. Nor do I know what
> I might offer in exchange for what I take. Time will tell.
>
Also, in case you dont know, there are alot of NR related email lists. Just
go to www.egroups.com and search for Nova Roma. There are at least 20. :)
>
> Finally, to your comments on the law. We are in agreement, I tremble
> to say, on one point at least. I agree with you that not all are in
> agreement as to what a given law means. But here's where I wander
> off
> from your point of view: I believe, for lawyers, law courts at
> various levels, and interested onlookers, disagreement on a given law
> is a good thing. It may be the basis for lovely debates on that law,
> for thinking, for progress. Indeed, Vado, disagreement on a given law
> are the foundation and lifeblood of all who love the law and who
> would keep alive the law and a nation ruled by law!
>
I agree completely!!! :)
>
> A final "finally…" You say, "Read the archives. See who
> has spoken
> about what…" Vado, again, you make public assumptions about one
> whom
> you know not. I have read past discussions. Your e-group kindly
> retains its records to enable one to do that. I have seen who has
> said what about whatever and whomever. Not since its inception, as
> yet, but I do read back further as time permits.
>
> Again, your comments puzzle me. It would seem there is a
> "hurt"
> behind your final words: "there has been some abuse of that law
> lately." Yet, Vado, you appear to give as good as you get. If
> there
> is abuse, it appears (from the comments I have read) to go both ways.
> And is it sometimes a question of perception? One man's
> "abuse" is
> another's lively discussion, with no harm intended on either
> side?
> Well, if there is offence to be taken, there are those who will take
> it.
>
> We all, in all aspects of life, might be better informed about
> everything, admittedly myself included. It's tough to keep up
> with
> all sides of every issue and take in all points of view on
> everything. Certainly, some of my comments may not be well informed
> –
> that's why I make them. If one wants to be better informed, one has
> at times, and alas, to publicly display one's abysmal ignorance
> in
> order to elicit guidance from one's betters (and
> better-informed). I
> welcome constructive guidance from anyone who has walked the road
> before me.
>
> My questions, Vado (and others listening), about those who might
> wander away from NR, are simply that: questions. Recognizing the
> excellence and good intentions of the Nova Roma web site, I wondered
> why there is more discussion in the e-group I have accessed (this
> one) on non-Roman issues, and why the records show more participation
> over past months than currently. I see your name and your comments,
> some of which, confess, Vado, do have an "edge" to them, and
> wonder
> what is behind it. The wonderings of a newcomer, Vado. Nothing more.
> I stumbled into town, and wondered what sort of place it was. I
> didn't come with the intention of re-building what I did not help
> lay
> the foundations of in the first place. I don't know what mix of
> things went into the foundation, but see no harm in wondering about
> this. It is not a challenge, only the wonderings of one who is
> curious about how the world is made. I don't know the population
> of
> Nova Roma except from their words. Your words, Vado, are sometimes
> harsh.
>
> I came in peace, Vado. No challenge to anyone's auctoritas or
> dignitas intended. By no means do I mean to be "constructive"
> in a
> place until I know what there is to be constructed. I echo the
> thoughts of Titus Coruncanius Rufus, who recently introduced himself,
> and then asked "what is the next step?" What is next for a
> newcomer
> to Nova Roma, once he or she has stumbled upon your site, gained
> citizenship, and entered the forum? Are we meant to look on from the
> sidelines only? If so, be not surprised that some of us will quietly
> (or otherwise) move on.
>
> And to L Cornelius Sulla – I well understand that Rome was not
> built
> in a day. (I can guess at the time frame of Rome's construction by
> the length of time it has taken me to get where I've got to so far in
> my studies! The longer it took to build the blasted place, the longer
> it takes for students of Rome to learn about it all!) I guess my
> question here is, is Rome - i.e. Nova Roma – built? Finished? Is
> it
> a thing done and requiring no further construction? If so, why do you
> say you encourage newcomers?
>
As I stated above, I dont even think the foundation is even nearing
completion. Therefore there is still alot of work to do to even construct
the foundation. Let alone build the house. :) There is alot of work and
effort in running a nation. But, given the very nature of our government,
there must be people to continue developing the nation. Becuase of the
rapid turnover of offices. We are not a monarchy but a Republic. This
means that we need people who are active and willing to serve the Res
Publica, without that resource our nation will suffer.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
>
> T Coruncanius Rufus had a good question, I thought. Where is Nova
> Roma going next? And what, if anything, do you see for anyone joining
> you to be doing? What, Vado, is the "work" that some of the
> 90% of us
> might be taking on? I, for one, am here, awaiting your guidance.
>
> Bene disco, Vado, si bene doces.
>
> Omnes valete!
>
> Christiana
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Reply to Timor Vadonis (Vadophobia) |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:58:25 GMT |
|
Salve Christiana:
Just so you are aware, I wrote Titus Rufus privately with information on the
various Egroups lists and Sodalitas, in answer to his post to the list about
same. I send you a letter too.
I am available to any citizen to answer questions regarding Nova Roma. If I
do not know the answer myself, I can usually find out, or refer a citizen to
another individual who can assist them better than I.
Peiodically, the Junior Consul Marcus Minucius Audens will post a referral
to me regarding questions when he is absent, and occasionally I post my own
invitation for new civites to call upon me, usually when I welcome them to
Nova Roma.
I agree that we need to have a more consistent means of welcoming new
citizens and informing them of all of its features, ie Sodalitas. This is
something that I would like to become involved with, but due to time
constraints at work, and present NR Sodalitas involvement, I haven't yet
initiated such a project. But I'll get to it :) This will be the doing of a
committee of some description, I would think.
Thanks for your views and your excellent suggestions, Christiana Maria.
Bene vale,
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
Scriba Consula MMA
Nova Roma
(snip)
>I echo the
>thoughts of Titus Coruncanius Rufus, who recently introduced himself,
>and then asked "what is the next step?" What is next for a
>newcomer
>to Nova Roma, once he or she has stumbled upon your site, gained
>citizenship, and entered the forum? Are we meant to look on from the
>sidelines only? If so, be not surprised that some of us will quietly
>(or otherwise) move on.
>
>And to L Cornelius Sulla – I well understand that Rome was not
>built
>in a day. (I can guess at the time frame of Rome's construction by
>the length of time it has taken me to get where I've got to so far in
>my studies! The longer it took to build the blasted place, the longer
>it takes for students of Rome to learn about it all!) I guess my
>question here is, is Rome - i.e. Nova Roma – built? Finished? Is
>it
>a thing done and requiring no further construction? If so, why do you
>say you encourage newcomers?
>
>T Coruncanius Rufus had a good question, I thought. Where is Nova
>Roma going next? And what, if anything, do you see for anyone joining
>you to be doing? What, Vado, is the "work" that some of the
>90% of us
>might be taking on? I, for one, am here, awaiting your guidance.
>
>Bene disco, Vado, si bene doces.
>
>Omnes valete!
>
>Christiana
>
>
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Reply to Reply to Timor Vadonis (Vadophobia) |
| From: |
labienus@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:11:06 US/Central |
|
T Labienus Christianae Mariae S P D
> First … I, too, have been a member of other organizations for some
> years. My experience has been similar to yours – I agree much of
> the work is done by the few. But may we take it a step further and ask
> why that is?
You suggest a number of reasons, few of which cast a sympathetic light on the
people running the hypothetical organization under discussion. These reasons
primarily center around a few who bullishly plow along in the direction of
their own vision for the organization, pushing those who stand in their way
aside and providing a comfortable ride only for those willing to follow in
their wake.
To be sure, there is a little of that in Nova Roma. There certainly have been
a notable few who have been unjustly manhandled by those in charge over the
course of our history. (Please do not read that to imply that those in charge
during those instances are necessarily still in charge, or that Nova Roma's
leadership has failed to change over time.) Still, it has been my experience
that Nova Roma's direction has been decided primarily by the consensus
developed among those who are willing to put forth their ideas and defend them.
> (Now I confess to being one who leans to the "reason over passion"
> side of things, so my comments now and in future must be viewed in that
> light.)
It is my opinion that this speaks well of you. Pathei interfere with
eudaimonia.
> (do you mean "acquiesce" – for my Webster's does not contain "quiesce"?)
"Quiesce" is a perfectly acceptable English verb, meaning to become quiet. One
who is quiescent has quiesced.
> What I saw, as a visitor before I applied for citizenship, was that in your
> e-group, some not too Roman interests (I hesitate to say again, but
> for the purpose of explaining what I mean here, the lengthy debate on
> the "reply feature") that culminated in a vote.
Surely a group that communicates primarily through an e-mail service can be
excused if it chooses to discuss the manner in which that service shall be
used? The main Nova Roma list is dedicated to discussions that are of
importance and (hopefully) interest to any and all Novoromani. Often, such
discussions will wander far afield of conversation about historical Roma. This
is both reasonable and expectable. Even with such digressions, I have learned
far more about Roma Antiqua--especially the ancient religion--from reading
discussions here than from my own individual studies.
> If there are "a dozen different special Roman interest e-groups" it would be
> helpful to us newcomers still deciding if we want to stay, or deciding in
> which part of town we wish to take up residence, to know about them –such
> as, what they are, where they are, and whether they are open to
> newcomers with similar interests.
Here are the ones I know of. The first three are officially sponsored
sodalitates of Nova Roma. I am certain there are many other groups.
Sodalitas Militarium - I think the contact person for the group is Consul M
Minucius Audens, and I believe that it is open to all comers.
Sodalitas Egressus - I think the contact person for the group is Pompeia
Cornelia Strabo, and I believe that it is open to all comers.
Sodalitas Latinitas - latinitas@--------, open to anyone with an interest in
Latinity.
Sodalitas Musarum - ForTheMuses@--------, open to anyone with an interest in
the arts.
There are various lists dedicated to given provinciae and a few dedicated to
the various languages our cives speak. A search on eGroups' Web site for Nova
Roma will turn up many of these, and inquiries on this list will likely bear
more fruit as well.
> Finally, to your comments on the law. We are in agreement, I tremble
> to say, on one point at least. I agree with you that not all are in
> agreement as to what a given law means. But here's where I wander off
> from your point of view: I believe, for lawyers, law courts at
> various levels, and interested onlookers, disagreement on a given law
> is a good thing. It may be the basis for lovely debates on that law,
> for thinking, for progress. Indeed, Vado, disagreement on a given law
> are the foundation and lifeblood of all who love the law and who
> would keep alive the law and a nation ruled by law!
A nation must strike a balance between laws which allow reasonable flexibility
and laws which are so vague as to be either unenforceable or incapable of
addressing the issue they ostensibly target. In my opinion, Nova Roma
currently has a few of the latter on its books.
> I came in peace, Vado. No challenge to anyone's auctoritas or
> dignitas intended.
I hope you can see how wondering whether or not citizens are being turned away
by the Vados of the world could be construed otherwise. This relatively
impartial observer can easily see how the language of your post could be read
as accusatory.
> By no means do I mean to be "constructive" in a
> place until I know what there is to be constructed. I echo the
> thoughts of Titus Coruncanius Rufus, who recently introduced himself,
> and then asked "what is the next step?" What is next for a newcomer
> to Nova Roma, once he or she has stumbled upon your site, gained
> citizenship, and entered the forum?
This is an excellent question. I would suggest that you do as you are doing.
Engage the citizenry in conversation, get to know some people, look at what is
admirable and what isn't, and, finally, try to make this a better place for
those who come after you, in whatever way you think best. We are an immensely
young nation, with very, very few institutions in place. On the plus side,
this means that there is immense opportunity to leave a mark on the nation.
Unfortunately, it also means that there are few internal bodies actively
attempting to attract members. I'll give two suggestions for places to start.
First, try to sign on as a scriba or accensus with a presiding magistrate.
This late in the year, there aren't very many of these positions open, but that
will change in a few months after the December elections. This is an excellent
way to gain experience with the internal workings of our nascent government.
Second, try to locate fellow citizens local to your area and arrange face-to-
face meetings with them to discuss and do Roman things. Nova Roma's biggest
lack, in my opinion, is in the sense of community that can only come from
actual physical contact with others.
> Are we meant to look on from the sidelines only?
Please, by all means, do not simply sit idly by.
> question here is, is Rome - i.e. Nova Roma – built? Finished? Is it
> a thing done and requiring no further construction? If so, why do you
> say you encourage newcomers?
Nova Roma is by no means finished. Like any other endeavor of its kind, it
never will be. The direction that Nova Roma is heading is part of an ongoing
dialogue.
Vale
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: New Citizen Appointment [and all the Vadonian posts] |
| From: |
razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:52:09 -0000 |
|
Salvete.
I've been reading the posts that I believe spun off of this one,
Vado's welcoming Maria Christiana, and before it Maria Christiana's
initial post proudly proclaiming her new Nova Roma citizenship. I do
not understand where the "fear of Vado" came from. However, this
could be used as an example of the way one post can lead to a long
thread with many people commenting on the this and that of what they
read. Since this one talks about the ways NR has developed and how
it
can continue to develope, this thread is more on the Roman topic than
some we have seen.
Bene valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.
--- In novaroma@--------, "Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@d...> wrote:
> Mariae Christianae salutem, and welcome to Nova Roma!
> Scripsisiti:
>
> >Si valete valeo!
> >
> >I am Christiana, accepted into gens Maria, province of Canada
> >Occidentalis, on September 30, 2000. By way of introduction, I am
> >both worker and student and have been following your discussions
from
> >the sidelines for some time, waiting to join in until I had read
the
> >Constitution of Nova Roma, toured the Nova Roma site, and joined a
> >familia. My interests are in all things Roman, with a particular
> >interest in the language of Rome, in her laws and lawgivers, and in
> >the process and product of pax Romana.
>
> >I look forward to meeting everyone and sharing in your discourse as
> >time goes on, as the political wrangling of the few hopefully gives
> >way to discussion of matters of general interest omnibus incolis
> >Novae Romae (to all inhabitants of New Rome).
>
> >Legum serva sum ut libera esse possum.
> >(I am a slave of the law so that I might be free)
>
> >Pax vobiscum et valete!
>
> Tibi respondeo: Hmm. At first, I felt much as you do when I first
arrived
> here. But "the political wrangling of the few", as you call it, is
something
> which happens periodically in this forum, when an exchange of erm...
> information... raises issues such as unintentionally
self-contradictory or
> imprecise laws which can be interpreted differently to serve
different
> interests. Hoc est verbum sapientibus (here's a word to the wise).
>
> I believe some public political discussion of this nature is in the
public
> interest, so that citizens can see just what (and who) works in the
public
> interest, and what (or who) doesn't.
>
> It's all very well to describe oneself as a slave to the law who is
thereby
> free, but every man and woman in NR has a right to help make and
re-make the
> laws which bind us all - and this is done primarily through debate.
>
> If citizens never do so (which is of course also their right), and
never ask
> of a proposed or actual law: "Cui bono?" (to whose benefit is
this?), they
> may find one day that the laws they permitted by silent agreement
have made
> them slaves indeed.
>
> Those who don't care about politics will get the government, and
the
social
> status, they deserve. The problem with that is, a lot of others
won't.
>
> Good choice of gens, by the way.
>
> Pace,
>
> N. Moravius Vado.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: New Citizens and all the Vadonian posts |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:05:44 -0600 |
|
Salvete:
As a relative newcomer myself, let me just add one comment to the topic and
then I'm fading into silence....
For those of us new to the club, so to speak, I think we need something more
personal than advice to read back list archives as a way to know about Nova
Roma. I got that advice, disliked it, and simply won't read through two
years worth of email to know more about an organization. I think it falls
upon the pater/materfamilias and other members of a newcomer's gens, and the
Sodalitas Egressus in general, to mentor newcomers one-on-one.
We've come a long way.....but there's a long way to go.
I'll be silent now.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
razenna@-------- wrote:
> Salvete.
>
> I've been reading the posts that I believe spun off of this one,
> Vado's welcoming Maria Christiana, and before it Maria Christiana's
> initial post proudly proclaiming her new Nova Roma citizenship. I do
> not understand where the "fear of Vado" came from. However, this
> could be used as an example of the way one post can lead to a long
> thread with many people commenting on the this and that of what they
> read. Since this one talks about the ways NR has developed and how
> it
> can continue to develope, this thread is more on the Roman topic than
> some we have seen.
>
> Bene valete.
> C. Aelius Ericius.
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@d...> wrote:
> > Mariae Christianae salutem, and welcome to Nova Roma!
> > Scripsisiti:
> >
> > >Si valete valeo!
> > >
> > >I am Christiana, accepted into gens Maria, province of Canada
> > >Occidentalis, on September 30, 2000. By way of introduction, I am
> > >both worker and student and have been following your discussions
> from
> > >the sidelines for some time, waiting to join in until I had read
> the
> > >Constitution of Nova Roma, toured the Nova Roma site, and joined a
> > >familia. My interests are in all things Roman, with a particular
> > >interest in the language of Rome, in her laws and lawgivers, and in
> > >the process and product of pax Romana.
> >
> > >I look forward to meeting everyone and sharing in your discourse as
> > >time goes on, as the political wrangling of the few hopefully gives
> > >way to discussion of matters of general interest omnibus incolis
> > >Novae Romae (to all inhabitants of New Rome).
> >
> > >Legum serva sum ut libera esse possum.
> > >(I am a slave of the law so that I might be free)
> >
> > >Pax vobiscum et valete!
> >
> > Tibi respondeo: Hmm. At first, I felt much as you do when I first
> arrived
> > here. But "the political wrangling of the few", as you call it, is
> something
> > which happens periodically in this forum, when an exchange of erm...
> > information... raises issues such as unintentionally
> self-contradictory or
> > imprecise laws which can be interpreted differently to serve
> different
> > interests. Hoc est verbum sapientibus (here's a word to the wise).
> >
> > I believe some public political discussion of this nature is in the
> public
> > interest, so that citizens can see just what (and who) works in the
> public
> > interest, and what (or who) doesn't.
> >
> > It's all very well to describe oneself as a slave to the law who is
> thereby
> > free, but every man and woman in NR has a right to help make and
> re-make the
> > laws which bind us all - and this is done primarily through debate.
> >
> > If citizens never do so (which is of course also their right), and
> never ask
> > of a proposed or actual law: "Cui bono?" (to whose benefit is
> this?), they
> > may find one day that the laws they permitted by silent agreement
> have made
> > them slaves indeed.
> >
> > Those who don't care about politics will get the government, and
> the
> social
> > status, they deserve. The problem with that is, a lot of others
> won't.
> >
> > Good choice of gens, by the way.
> >
> > Pace,
> >
> > N. Moravius Vado.
>
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Replies to replies to... |
| From: |
molentje@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:15:02 -0000 |
|
Ave...
Everyone who responded. I'll "quiesce" now and digest all you've said.
...et vale.
Christiana Maria
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: New Citizens and all the Vadonian posts |
| From: |
razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:15:05 -0000 |
|
LOL Having to read all the back copy archives could be considered
more like a sentence to punishemtn than advice. =({[;-) I've never
found an easy way to "get into a group". "Just hang in there" can
also be a turn off. I have no answers.
C. Aelius Ericius.
--- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> Salvete:
>
> As a relative newcomer myself, let me just add one comment to the
topic and
> then I'm fading into silence....
>
> For those of us new to the club, so to speak, I think we need
something more
> personal than advice to read back list archives as a way to know
about Nova
> Roma. I got that advice, disliked it, and simply won't read
through
two
> years worth of email to know more about an organization. I think
it falls
> upon the pater/materfamilias and other members of a newcomer's
gens,
and the
> Sodalitas Egressus in general, to mentor newcomers one-on-one.
>
> We've come a long way.....but there's a long way to go.
>
> I'll be silent now.
>
> Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>
>
>
> raz--------@-------- wrot--------font>
>
> > Salvete.
> >
> > I've been reading the posts that I believe spun off of this one,
> > Vado's welcoming Maria Christiana, and before it Maria
Christiana's
> > initial post proudly proclaiming her new Nova Roma citizenship.
I
do
> > not understand where the "fear of Vado" came from. However, this
> > could be used as an example of the way one post can lead to a long
> > thread with many people commenting on the this and that of what
they
> > read. Since this one talks about the ways NR has developed and
how
> > it
> > can continue to develope, this thread is more on the Roman topic
than
> > some we have seen.
> >
> > Bene valete.
> > C. Aelius Ericius.
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@d...>
wrote:
> > > Mariae Christianae salutem, and welcome to Nova Roma!
> > > Scripsisiti:
> > >
> > > >Si valete valeo!
> > > >
> > > >I am Christiana, accepted into gens Maria, province of Canada
> > > >Occidentalis, on September 30, 2000. By way of introduction, I
am
> > > >both worker and student and have been following your
discussions
> > from
> > > >the sidelines for some time, waiting to join in until I had
read
> > the
> > > >Constitution of Nova Roma, toured the Nova Roma site, and
joined a
> > > >familia. My interests are in all things Roman, with a
particular
> > > >interest in the language of Rome, in her laws and lawgivers,
and in
> > > >the process and product of pax Romana.
> > >
> > > >I look forward to meeting everyone and sharing in your
discourse as
> > > >time goes on, as the political wrangling of the few hopefully
gives
> > > >way to discussion of matters of general interest omnibus
incolis
> > > >Novae Romae (to all inhabitants of New Rome).
> > >
> > > >Legum serva sum ut libera esse possum.
> > > >(I am a slave of the law so that I might be free)
> > >
> > > >Pax vobiscum et valete!
> > >
> > > Tibi respondeo: Hmm. At first, I felt much as you do when I
first
> > arrived
> > > here. But "the political wrangling of the few", as you call it,
is
> > something
> > > which happens periodically in this forum, when an exchange of
erm...
> > > information... raises issues such as unintentionally
> > self-contradictory or
> > > imprecise laws which can be interpreted differently to serve
> > different
> > > interests. Hoc est verbum sapientibus (here's a word to the
wise).
> > >
> > > I believe some public political discussion of this nature is in
the
> > public
> > > interest, so that citizens can see just what (and who) works in
the
> > public
> > > interest, and what (or who) doesn't.
> > >
> > > It's all very well to describe oneself as a slave to the law
who
is
> > thereby
> > > free, but every man and woman in NR has a right to help make and
> > re-make the
> > > laws which bind us all - and this is done primarily through
debate.
> > >
> > > If citizens never do so (which is of course also their right),
and
> > never ask
> > > of a proposed or actual law: "Cui bono?" (to whose benefit is
> > this?), they
> > > may find one day that the laws they permitted by silent
agreement
> > have made
> > > them slaves indeed.
> > >
> > > Those who don't care about politics will get the government, and
> > the
> > social
> > > status, they deserve. The problem with that is, a lot of others
> > won't.
> > >
> > > Good choice of gens, by the way.
> > >
> > > Pace,
> > >
> > > N. Moravius Vado.
> >
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: New Citizens and all the Vadonian posts |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:14:07 -0700 |
|
----- Original Message -----
From: <gmvick32@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 3:05 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: New Citizens and all the Vadonian posts
> Salvete:
>
> As a relative newcomer myself, let me just add one comment to the topic
and
> then I'm fading into silence....
>
> For those of us new to the club, so to speak, I think we need something
more
> personal than advice to read back list archives as a way to know about
Nova
> Roma. I got that advice, disliked it, and simply won't read through two
> years worth of email to know more about an organization. I think it
falls
> upon the pater/materfamilias and other members of a newcomer's gens, and
the
> Sodalitas Egressus in general, to mentor newcomers one-on-one.
I agree completely. In particular with respect to the role of the
Pater/Materfamilias. :)
> We've come a long way.....but there's a long way to go.
Definately! There is always room for improvement.
> I'll be silent now.
No dont be silent Livia!!! You make perfect sense.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Paterfamilias of the Gens Cornelia
> Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>
>
>
> razenna@-------- wrote:
>
> > Salvete.
> >
> > I've been reading the posts that I believe spun off of this one,
> > Vado's welcoming Maria Christiana, and before it Maria Christiana's
> > initial post proudly proclaiming her new Nova Roma citizenship. I do
> > not understand where the "fear of Vado" came from. However, this
> > could be used as an example of the way one post can lead to a long
> > thread with many people commenting on the this and that of what they
> > read. Since this one talks about the ways NR has developed and how
> > it
> > can continue to develope, this thread is more on the Roman topic than
> > some we have seen.
> >
> > Bene valete.
> > C. Aelius Ericius.
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@d...> wrote:
> > > Mariae Christianae salutem, and welcome to Nova Roma!
> > > Scripsisiti:
> > >
> > > >Si valete valeo!
> > > >
> > > >I am Christiana, accepted into gens Maria, province of Canada
> > > >Occidentalis, on September 30, 2000. By way of introduction, I am
> > > >both worker and student and have been following your discussions
> > from
> > > >the sidelines for some time, waiting to join in until I had read
> > the
> > > >Constitution of Nova Roma, toured the Nova Roma site, and joined a
> > > >familia. My interests are in all things Roman, with a particular
> > > >interest in the language of Rome, in her laws and lawgivers, and in
> > > >the process and product of pax Romana.
> > >
> > > >I look forward to meeting everyone and sharing in your discourse as
> > > >time goes on, as the political wrangling of the few hopefully gives
> > > >way to discussion of matters of general interest omnibus incolis
> > > >Novae Romae (to all inhabitants of New Rome).
> > >
> > > >Legum serva sum ut libera esse possum.
> > > >(I am a slave of the law so that I might be free)
> > >
> > > >Pax vobiscum et valete!
> > >
> > > Tibi respondeo: Hmm. At first, I felt much as you do when I first
> > arrived
> > > here. But "the political wrangling of the few", as you call it, is
> > something
> > > which happens periodically in this forum, when an exchange of erm...
> > > information... raises issues such as unintentionally
> > self-contradictory or
> > > imprecise laws which can be interpreted differently to serve
> > different
> > > interests. Hoc est verbum sapientibus (here's a word to the wise).
> > >
> > > I believe some public political discussion of this nature is in the
> > public
> > > interest, so that citizens can see just what (and who) works in the
> > public
> > > interest, and what (or who) doesn't.
> > >
> > > It's all very well to describe oneself as a slave to the law who is
> > thereby
> > > free, but every man and woman in NR has a right to help make and
> > re-make the
> > > laws which bind us all - and this is done primarily through debate.
> > >
> > > If citizens never do so (which is of course also their right), and
> > never ask
> > > of a proposed or actual law: "Cui bono?" (to whose benefit is
> > this?), they
> > > may find one day that the laws they permitted by silent agreement
> > have made
> > > them slaves indeed.
> > >
> > > Those who don't care about politics will get the government, and
> > the
> > social
> > > status, they deserve. The problem with that is, a lot of others
> > won't.
> > >
> > > Good choice of gens, by the way.
> > >
> > > Pace,
> > >
> > > N. Moravius Vado.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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