| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: New Citizens and all the Vadonian posts |
| From: |
"pjane@-------- " <pjane@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:46:01 -0000 |
|
> For those of us new to the club, so to speak, I think we need
something more
> personal than advice to read back list archives as a way to know
about Nova
> Roma.
I can see your point here. What better solution do you have in mind?
Patricia Cassia.
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/8/_/61050/_/971484364/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: New Citizens and all the Vadonian posts |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:22:04 -0600 |
|
Salve, Patricia Cassia!
Well, I think we've discussed, either here or elsewhere, some of those
things....such as:
1. Including with a new citizen's letter letting them know they are
accepted, including info on things like the lists we have, etc. I don't
know what we are currently sending out, but if I recall something along
these lines is either already being done or has been talked about.
2. I think the gens is the first place to get a personal intro to Nova
Roma. Hopefully, a pater/materfamilias will be available and able to
correspond with the newcomer. If a person is starting a new gens....well,
that poses a sticky little problem, eh?
3. We are building an Egressus website which hopefully will augment the
current website with useful info.
4. Maybe as part of Egressus, or maybe as a cadre of censorial scribes, we
could have a small pool of people who "buddy up" with new citizens for a
time....sort of a peer responsible for showing the new person around and
help them learn the ins and outs.
Other ideas???
Livia
"pjane@--------" wrote:
> > For those of us new to the club, so to speak, I think we need
> something more
> > personal than advice to read back list archives as a way to know
> about Nova
> > Roma.
>
> I can see your point here. What better solution do you have in mind?
>
> Patricia Cassia.
>
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/8/_/61050/_/971485169/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Being a "New" citizen |
| From: |
Ray Jewhurst <daventhalas@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:42:56 -0700 (PDT) |
|
I, as a new citizen, would have to say that I am
content about my welcome. I even had one citizen ICQ
me within an hour of posting my message. My opinion
of Nova Roma so far? I love it and I am finding to be
my new obsession-internet or otherwise. I would like
to let all officials know that I am at there service.
I am more than willing to do anything that is needed
to help our nation grow.
Sincerely,
Titus Coruncanius Rufus
p.s. can any help my find some useful Latin phrases
besides "salve"
p.p.s if any one would like to talk to me please ICQ
me at #89131054
=====
"Spirits fly on dangerous missions,
imaginations on fire,
focused high on soaring ambitions,
consumed in a single desire
In the grip of a nameless possesion,
a slave to the drive of obsession
a spirit with a vision is a dream with a Mission."--Rush
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/8/_/61050/_/971487778/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Being a "New" citizen |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:11:23 -0600 |
|
Salve, Rufus:
I'm glad to hear you're content and even obsessed!
Check out the list of Latin phrases at http://users.hol.gr/~posi/latin.htm.
I don't know if this is what you want.
You wouldn't happen to live in or near Colorado, would you?
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Ray Jewhurst wrote:
> I, as a new citizen, would have to say that I am
> content about my welcome. I even had one citizen ICQ
> me within an hour of posting my message. My opinion
> of Nova Roma so far? I love it and I am finding to be
> my new obsession-internet or otherwise. I would like
> to let all officials know that I am at there service.
> I am more than willing to do anything that is needed
> to help our nation grow.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Titus Coruncanius Rufus
>
> p.s. can any help my find some useful Latin phrases
> besides "salve"
> p.p.s if any one would like to talk to me please ICQ
> me at #89131054
>
> =====
> "Spirits fly on dangerous missions,
> imaginations on fire,
> focused high on soaring ambitions,
> consumed in a single desire
> In the grip of a nameless possesion,
> a slave to the drive of obsession
> a spirit with a vision is a dream with a Mission."--Rush
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
>
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/8/_/61050/_/971488117/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: New Citizens and all the Vadonian posts |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:43:16 -0700 |
|
gmvick32@-------- wrote:
> Salve, Patricia Cassia!
>
> Well, I think we've discussed, either here or elsewhere, some of those
> things....such as:
>
> 1. Including with a new citizen's letter letting them know they are
> accepted, including info on things like the lists we have, etc. I don't
> know what we are currently sending out, but if I recall something along
> these lines is either already being done or has been talked about.
>
We do that already, but we dont list every single list that is NR related
though.
>
> 2. I think the gens is the first place to get a personal intro to Nova
> Roma. Hopefully, a pater/materfamilias will be available and able to
> correspond with the newcomer. If a person is starting a new gens....well,
> that poses a sticky little problem, eh?
>
I like this and I try to do that with my Gens. :) I even have a Gens email
list for all my Gens members, so that I can maintain a stable line of
communication. :)
>
> 3. We are building an Egressus website which hopefully will augment the
> current website with useful info.
>
That would be great.
>
> 4. Maybe as part of Egressus, or maybe as a cadre of censorial scribes, we
> could have a small pool of people who "buddy up" with new citizens for a
> time....sort of a peer responsible for showing the new person around and
> help them learn the ins and outs.
>
As a matter of fact over a year ago, I had this very idea. It was kinda shot
down because some people felt it was establishing too much of a similarity
between a Patron Client relationship. I would really like to see this come to
some type of fruition, since we are all kinda in a Patron/Client relationship
already (the Pater/Mater relationship is an example since we are not blood
related.) I originally wanted to create a list of citizens who would be able
to be contacted by newbies or potential citizens. Have their names and email
addys up there...maybe with state locations so that they can be contacted by
perpsective citizens. And, even a message board available, too. :) Any other
ideas would be great! :)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor
>
> Other ideas???
>
> Livia
>
> "pjane@--------" wrote:
>
> > > For those of us new to the club, so to speak, I think we need
> > something more
> > > personal than advice to read back list archives as a way to know
> > about Nova
> > > Roma.
> >
> > I can see your point here. What better solution do you have in mind?
> >
> > Patricia Cassia.
> >
>
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/8/_/61050/_/971491393/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] New file uploaded to novaroma |
| From: |
<novaroma@--------> |
| Date: |
14 Oct 2000 03:59:24 -0000 |
|
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the novaroma
group.
File : /Architechtural rendering/DomusCG001.jpg
Uploaded by : amgunn@--------
Description : Venator's home, based upon a Pompeian floorplan
You can access this file at the URL
http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/Architechtural+rendering/DomusCG001%2Ejpg
To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
Regards,
amgunn@--------
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/8/_/61050/_/971495968/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: New file uploaded to novaroma |
| From: |
razenna@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 14 Oct 2000 04:09:50 -0000 |
|
Salve, Venator.
I'm not sure why, but my system couldn't download your contribution.
I'll see it sometime.
Ave Valeque
Ericius.
--- In novaroma@--------, <novaroma@--------> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the novaroma
> group.
>
> File : /Architechtural rendering/DomusCG001.jpg
> Uploaded by : amgunn@--------
> Description : Venator's home, based upon a Pompeian floorplan
>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
>
http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/Architechtural+rendering/DomusCG
001%2Ejpg
>
> To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
>
> http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
>
>
> Regards,
>
> amgunn@--------
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/8/_/61050/_/971496603/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: New file uploaded to novaroma |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson <amgunn@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:19:18 -0500 |
|
Salvete Omnes,
Looks like the file may have been corrupted during upload. I'll trouble shoot and repost.
In Amicus - Venii
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/8/_/61050/_/971497169/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] New file uploaded to novaroma |
| From: |
<novaroma@--------> |
| Date: |
14 Oct 2000 04:22:34 -0000 |
|
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the novaroma
group.
File : /Architechtural rendering/DomusCG001.bmp
Uploaded by : amgunn@--------
Description : Second try on Domus Venii
You can access this file at the URL
http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/Architechtural+rendering/DomusCG001%2Ebmp
To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
Regards,
amgunn@--------
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/8/_/61050/_/971497357/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] New file uploaded to novaroma |
| From: |
<gmvick32@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:50:41 -0600 |
|
Oh, Venator, this is so cool.
Is the Atrium open to the air?? Where do you live? Which rooms have which
functions??
I very much want to build a house to a Roman floor plan someday.
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
novaroma@-------- wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the novaroma
> group.
>
> File : /Architechtural rendering/DomusCG001.bmp
> Uploaded by : amgunn@--------
> Description : Second try on Domus Venii
>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
> http://www.egroups.com/files/novaroma/Architechtural+rendering/DomusCG001%2Ebmp
>
> To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit
>
> http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html
>
> Regards,
>
> amgunn@--------
>
>
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/8/_/61050/_/971497673/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] description of Venator's Roman ome, was Re: New file uploaded to novaroma |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson <amgunn@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:50:42 -0500 |
|
Ave Livia Cornelia, et alia,
Piperbarbus Ullerius scripsit.
gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>
> Oh, Venator, this is so cool.
>
> Is the Atrium open to the air?? Where do you live? Which rooms have which
> functions??
>
> I very much want to build a house to a Roman floor plan someday.
>
> Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>
A quick tour.
Ground floor, counterclockwise from front of house:
1. Double wide front door opening onto a passage way to another set of double wide doors opening into the atrium,
which is open at the top to the air In the center of the atrium is a pool which catches rain water (with an overflow
drain to a buried cistern)
2. A small shop, for rent or to engage in commerce myself.
3. Stairway to 1st floor.
4. Household food stores.
5. Quarters for the household steward and 2 house boys (what can I say, I'm an aristocrat at heart ;-) )
6. Library, schoolroom and quarters for the family tutor
7. Garden and colonnaded portico (peristyle, roof partially slopes up to 1st floor), an altar at the far wall, in
front of which is a small pool and benches
8. 2 guest rooms, off the peristyle
9. Dining area
10. Quarters for the cook and 2 scullery servants.
11. Kitchen & pantry
12. Downstairs W/C.
First floor, countered as above:
1. The Atrium is open to the sky and surrounded by a balcony at this level.
2. Household storage.
3. Stairway to ground floor.
4. "Nanny's" quarters.
5. Children's quarters
6. Private quarters of Pater and Mater of the house.
7. Private family area. Both 6 and 7 overlook the garden and roof of the peristyle.
8. Quarters for the other household servants.
9. More household stores.
10. Upstairs W/C.
I hope this helps the usefulness of the drawing.
in Amicus - Venii
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/8/_/61050/_/971499049/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: description of Venator's Roman home |
| From: |
Megas-Robinson <amgunn@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:12:12 -0500 |
|
Ave Livia Cornelia, et alia:
Venator rescript:
gmvick32@-------- wrote:
>
> Makes a little more sense....very clever, if I promise to cook Roman dishes I wonder if I could sometime get a crack
> at the guest quarters! ;)
>
> There's a lot of open air areas....which leads me to hope?? you're in a place with mild winters.
>
> But I'm confused....I had heard that you were planning to move? And leave this wonderful house?? I wonder if I've
> missed something.
>
> Do you have it decorated in a Roman style?
>
> Livia
>
This is definitely a "what would I build if I could afford it" plan. I love the idea of open space being central to a
gracious lifestyle. I try and have some sor of garden wherever I have lived having one planned into the house makes it
much more liveable.
I should like to think that this house would be nicely in line with Nova Roma's plans for a physical community at some
point,
a location below the Snow Belt would be charming.
I may be moving next year, but this house will always be with me.
I'm currently working up plans for my Northern clime home, based on Scandinavian climate restraints.
I like to perform these little planning exercises as a measure of hope for future growth of the Faith and Cultural
revival groups to which I belong.
In Amicus - Venator
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/8/_/61050/_/971534251/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Needs Of Nova Roma Citizens |
| From: |
"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:41:34 -0000 |
|
L. Pompeius Octavianus consuli Marco Audenti S.P.D.
I read with interest your post 15685 (10/13/00) and would like to
express my humble opinion in some of your questions from my own
perspective.
Regarding question number 2 (what is your desired direction ? ) the
first thing before anything else ,I think, is to learn as much as
possible on roman culture. And I believe the differents Sodalitas are
an excellent way to achieve this. And they help cives novoromani with
the same interests within the roman culture get acquainted and
communicate among them. In my case, I am member of the Sodalitas
Latinitatis which is already very, very useful for me indeed, since
I study latin on my own. And I´m absolute sure is very helpful for
the others members as well. Also I would like to thank M.Apollonius
Formosanus for posting "NR practical latin" on the main list and all
the officers in the Sodalitas Latinitatis. Formosanus´ posts are
really instructive and helpful for all cives novoromani. I consider
that learning latin is the very first approach to roman culture.
As a non native english speaker, I think that those of us with the
same native language should try to communicate among us also in our
language. That would allow us to help each other and improve our
interaction within Nova Roma.
Since I am civis novoromanus since April,2000, I do not have much
experience here. Anyway, I find Nova Roma as an excellent practical
way to get involved with our beloved ancient culture.
Vale bene
--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Salvete, Omnes;
>
> I enter this forum after reading some extensive notes on your
thoughts
> in regard to the above subject. To be sure, there are different
kinds
> of people in Nova Roma, and it is certain that there are those who
have
> different resources, education, background and experience than
others.
> My own experience has on occasion been criticized as "too military"
in
> nature and that accusation is very probably true, however, it is the
> only background that I have to offer. As I have explained recently
to a
> citizen, my life really started in the Navy on submarines, where in
the
> diesel navy you completed your tasks as assigned or were
transferred.
> You kept your place until you had proven yourself to the crew, and
you
> recieved your status, therein, from them and not from yourself.
There
> were no written rules for becoming one with the crew, prudence and
study
> was the order of the day and your senior's orders were to be
carried out
> with zeal and dispatch. If your senior were made to look good,
then and
> only then did you recieve your recognition in turn. If I sometimes
> demonstrate the results of that early training, again, it is who I
am.
>
> In the case of my friend Vado, who has served as one of my Consular
> Advisors and Chaplain for the most part of my term as Consul, I
think
> his services excellent and his views perceptive. He has given me
many
> new ideas, and different views of old ideas. I hold him in great
> esteem, but he has much the same view as do I to the world, or at
least
> he certainly understands the basic me.
>
> Another excellent gentleman who has also served me long and well as
my
> Senior Consular Advisor, and serves in his own right as Senator and
> Censor Suffex. He has imparted his wisdom to me on many occasions.
> However this gentleman has no military background, and his views are
> wrought from a totally different fabric than mine.
>
> These two men, however have a common ideal in that they are
concerned in
> regard to NovaRoma, they want to move this republic ahead, and they
are
> willing to devote a large portion of thier time and effort towards
that
> goal. To my mind that buys them some consideration in the ways in
which
> they approach thier efforts and the people of NovaRoma, not that
they
> have more rights and priveledges than others, but that perhaps they
have
> a detailed plan for the time they are devotng to this republic, and
they
> are getting about thier proposed task. If such is true, does that
make
> them less than human because they have a plan, have and are pursuing
> such to an end, and are busy making decisions which to their mind
will
> forward this republic? Does this "threaten" others who have not
made
> similar arrangements and commitments. Well, I am not sure, but to
me
> the former are of great value while the latter have still to prove
> thiers to me. Perhaps this is a barbaric view, but from my scant
> studies of the Roman Culture, I glean that he who helps himself and
his
> state is helped by his gods, whoever they may be and the above menu
in
> very, very Roman.
>
> Some comments have been made regarding how do I get involved? How
do I
> resolve my needs with the needs of this micronation? Why do people
> drift away from Nova Roma? Why doesn't Nova Roma present a
friendlier
> side to newcomers? While the questions are all good ones, and
require
> answers, where are the answers to come from if not from the
Citizens,
> themselves. I have asked many times, both of the general
citizenship
> and of the membership in both of the Sodalitas that I have some
small
> involvement with;
>
> --What are your ideas?
>
> --What is your desired direction?
>
> --What do you need to know?
>
> --What can you share in our common goal?
>
> And all to often I recieve little in response. I, in my turn, do
not
> know what your needs are, I do not know how you may be useful in
this
> republic, do not have a list of your skills, your views, your
> disappoinments and your hopes, so when a citizen "drifts away" or
simpy
> leaves under another "unarguable" reason (family health, job) what
would
> you have those of us do who have some small ability to make a
> difference? In the absence of response, I then place my views,
ideas,
> direction and needs in place because I like nature abhor a vacuum.
> Those who have e-mailed me with questions, I have responded to,
those
> who have not agreed with my responses certainly have the right to
do so,
> and if they can show me the error of my ways, I, in my turn, will
> reconsider my position. But like most Senior Magistrates, I hold my
> position with honor, and pride as one given to me by the Citizens
of NR.
> To me that means that I must read the responses of my colleagues,
> determine my answers, and move forward in our goal to forward the
> republic to a position of greater recognition in our world. To that
> end, every day, I make decisions with or without input as my
position
> demands that I do, and every decision impacts someone in NR for
good or
> ill. Hopefully I do more good than ill to this republic for it is
my
> desire to do so. But it is my responsibility as the citizens of
Nova
> Roma have indicated that I shall further the cause of this republic,
> with or without citizen input, and so I and the other Senior
Magistrates
> and Magistrates all, do the best we can with what abilities and
> information we have.
>
> I have brought forward to the Senate Fathers two Sodalitas' based on
> needs as I saw then, the needs of Nova Roma at the time, and have
> recruited excellent people to staff them, and move thier efforts
> forward, and in doing so have probably turned off some people who
do not
> agree with my methodology and needs, but as I do not know of thier
> objections can do little to evaluate the situation or alter my
methods.
> Other Sodalitas are currently being formed for the same or similar
> purposes. None of these Sodalitas have anywhere near reached their
> limit of effectiveness for this republic and to do so requires the
> efforts, skills and ideas of the citizens of Nova Roma.
>
> The above is who I am, and is reflective of the way I do things,
simply
> because these methods have worked well for me in the past, while
other
> methods have not. It is not my intention to hurt anyone, but I feel
> that I have the right to courtesy as well. I have in the past
extended
> my hand as a helping gesture, only to have it bitten by an
individual(s)
> who did not understand my gesture for what it was, so I have not
been so
> vocal for some time. I have in the course of my time in NR, been
> involved in much of the political and military discussion, simply
> because I am not of the Religio Romano, my poetic ability reaches
it's
> zenith with "Roses are red--------", my singing pains the ears of
those
> around me, I am barely conversant in English much less a
distinguised
> language like Latin, I have little skill in expressing myself since
I
> usually manage to offend those whom I address, and philosophy in
> discussion gives me a headache (Grin!!!).
>
> However, all is not darkness, as we have some excellent people
working
> with those who are interested in the various NR Sodalitas'. We have
> websites being created as we speak that should move toward
answering the
> needs of newcomers. Livia Cornelia, and Pompeia Stabo have done
wonders
> with thier areas of responsibilities and my Consular Staff have been
> most effective in ferreting out information and making needed
proposals.
>
> In closing, I would say that while I do the best I am able, that
often
> is not enough and I am well aware of that. To that end I have
recruited
> others who are of like mind in advancing this republic to fill in
the
> "empty spots." Those whom I have asked to be a part of my
organizations
> have shown me that they are willing to work, have the interests of
NR at
> heart, and have some time, effort and skills to expend in the
republic's
> behalf. Again I am guilty of being selective, but I fear that is
the
> way of the world. I am always available to answer questions of the
Civs
> who have such for me, even if it takes some time to get back to
them.
> If I have failed in your view in some large or small way, I would
> appreciate your alerting me, and if I have offended anyone greatly
> (without being offended in my turn by you), I would also like to
know of
> it. Lastly, if there is anything that I can do to make this
Republic
> more "friendly" to newcomers, and to restrain older members from
> "drifting away" I shall be most pleased to listen.
>
> I, in my turn, must apologize for the length of this message, but it
> seems to me in the light of recent discussions, that these things
needed
> to be said.
>
> Valete, Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
>
> http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/8/_/61050/_/971548898/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Constitution and common sense |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:36:57 EDT |
|
Salvete O Quirites: Bonam fortunam.
Below are offered excerpts taken from correspondences between mi pater,
Moravius Vado, and myself concerning the recent exchanges on the Nova Roma
main list regarding constitutional questions. We thought that some of the
ideas expressed here might be of interest for other Quirites to share in.
Salve mi Piscine
Piscinus scripsit:
> Finally I got to look at the string on the rogatores today. I do not
think that >writing a single lex or a bunch of new leges will really solve
our basic problem here. >A complete overhaul to write an integrated and
unified body of law is what is >required to address a number of problems
related to the constitution and leges.
> This string touched briefly on an issue I recently posed as a
constitutional >question, and points to the much wider issue we all need to
consider.
> Any government should be reflective of and responsive to the community it
> serves. We are building an international, virtual community in a modern
> world. Censor Sulla suggests, "(We are) Reestablishing a culture that
> existed 1500 years ago." This is simply untrue. We are forming a new kind
> of society unlike any the world has seen before. Our government needs to
> reflect our present society, not some ancient society which we study but to
> which we have no connection.
Very good point. A vital one.
> The underlying problem here is that we have accepted the idea that we
> attempt to model our government after the ancient Roman Republic without any
> consideration to the functions once served by its institutions in the
ancient
> society, nor to the needs of our modern society which must now be met. Why
> should we accept a system that limits us, inconveniences our government,
>adds unnecessary complications?
Many of which would have us laughed out of any council of real nations. No
blame to anyone (like the founders Cassius and Germanicus) for trying to
import every civic, political and religious institution from the past, but
we have to face up to the issue when some of these are tried in a modern
context and found unworkable.
> And when there do arise obvious problems we amend the Constitution with a
series >of leges so poorly worded, so ambiguous and contradictory, as to
create more >problems than they resolve. Additionally there have been passed
leges which do >not agree with the Constitution, "the highest legal
authority," nor has provision been >made to align our leges to the
Constitution. We are building a confusing mass of >laws without purpose and
for what benefit to our community?
None to the community of course...
> With regard to this particular issue of the Rogatores, the Lex Vedia
> Vigintisexviri states that the "Two Rogatores shall be responsible for the
> administration of elections and the recording of votes among the curia." It
> does not say the Rogatores are "vote counters" as Australicus and most
others
> assume they are. The lex also provides the Rogatores the authority to
> appoint scribae. The function of the Rogatores is to oversee the scribae
who
> do the actual counting and record keeping. The rogatores are responsible
for >checking that proper procedures were used, and then posting the results.
Maybe in >the past two "vote counters" were sufficient when you had less
than 100 people
> voting. What then when there are hundreds voting, or thousands? Do we
> rewrite the laws after each problem arises, or do we look ahead now to
> prevent future problems?
Absolutely right.
> By relying on a misperceived constitution of a past society we encounter
> problems such as this one posed by Australicus:
>
> >>A new law *cannot be passed* until there are two Rogatores to count the
> votes. That is why this *one* vacancy must be filled now by Senatorial
> appointment. The general election cannot be postponed until a law is
> passed, because a law cannot be passed if we don't have two Rogatores,
> and when we have two Rogatores, the election can be carried on, to
> include a Constitutional amendment or a new law addressing the number of
> rogatorial positions.
Indeed.
> In my previous constitutional questions, Censor Sulla and I agreed that
> there is a need for judicial review provisions. In discussing the Rogatores
> issue with you, Sulla again suggested that the matter be taken before the
> praetors. His justification for using the praetors for judicial review is
> that the Constitution says, "Two praetors...shall have the following honors,
> powers, and responsibilities...to issue those edicta necessary...to
> administer the law." The Constitution gives the same powers with the exact
> same wording to the Aediles Curules and to the Aediles Plebis. Do we then
> assume that these magistrates also have an authority to exercise judicial
> review?
Of course not. Every magistrate may issue Edicta to administer law, but
Edicta cannot reasonably be made to serve the purposes of judicial review.
> If history is to be our guide, why are there only two praetors? Under
> the Sullean dictatorship there were eight praetors. The judicial
> responsibilities the praetors and aediles had in ancient Rome have been
> reflected in our Constitution, but in a total vacuum of any judicial system.
> Quaestors in ancient Rome served as prosecutors. There were traditional
> procedures which guided magistrates as to acceptable charges, acceptable
> evidence, and which also served to protect citizen rights. None of that is
> delineated in our Constitution or our leges. As things now stand anyone can
> present charges before a praetor without even informing a potential
defendant
> that legal action is being made against him or her. A praetor is free to
> make any decision inuita Minerva. There is no criteria as to a praetor's
> qualifications to act as a judge, no guidelines on how he should conduct
> himself. Does this serve some historical interest? Does it really serve
the
> community we try to form?
It doesn't. It's badly thought out. What sufficed in the first year of NR
cannot serve properly now or at all in the future. Look at the qualifications
we
require of our priests and pontiffs: is it not inconsistent to require no
similarly rigorous selection procedure for magistrates?
> We make laws like the Lex Iunia de Magistratum Aetate that discourages
> participation by our younger citizens, inaccurately based on historical
> examples, and without consideration of the consequences. If we want to
> follow ancient example then no Consul should be younger than 42 and no one
> should be considered for Censor until they are at least 47. But the Lex
Iunia does >not follow ancient precedent. It also does NOT reflect the
situation of our current >society.
Bloody good idea. Think of what that could have avoided! I think rogatores,
scribae, aediles etc. should become eligible from age 18, praetores from 21,
consuls perhaps from 28 and censors from 32. But I take your point (below)
about the unnecessarily restrictive, if not paralyzing, nature of much of
NR's muddled legislation.
> Laws that needlessly imposes limitations, encumber the functioning of our
>institutions, or have ambiguities which create paralyzing situations, do not
form an >efficient government. I regret having to make the suggestion,
because of the >inherent dangers arising in such situations, but it may be
that the time has arrived >where we need to review the entire Constitution
and our leges. We may commend >the efforts of Germanicus in the past, but
also recognize that our present >Constitution was issued by only one
individual appointed as dictator. It was never a >compact among citizens.
This will be challenged by the 'Social Contract' apologists (following Kant,
Rousseau et al.) By all means, let's commend Germanicus. Let's say it was a
fine job for one done so quickly, but that it is demonstrably not serving our
present needs and cannot serve future ones.
> First we need to recognize that we are an evolving international
> society whose citizens are from diverse backgrounds. This aspect of our
> society needs to be reflected in our Constitution.
Yes! The mess of tangled inconsistent archaic laws and subsequent amendments
led to the Principate and the emperors, whose empire can have functioned
only because they had the common sense not to impose Roman law on every
provincia in toto. Provinciae were governed, as far as I am aware, by their
own pre-extant legal traditions where these did not conflict with the
principles of Roman law and the exigencies of imperial administration - to
which end, a superstructure of simplified Roman law was superimposed on the
local infrastructure. I'm not suggesting we repeat that (though it could
work), but that the superstructure must be simple enough to match the
foundations. What we have at present, with edicta on top of leges on top of
constitutional principles, is a top-heavy superstructure overloading the
infrastructure, in a way reminiscent of the first attempt to erect the
tallest spire in Christendom atop the tower of Salisbury cathedral c.1300,
without doing anything to strengthen the tower and load-bearing chancel
arches and walls. The walls bulged outward under the strain, and the tower
collapsed through the roof, with the spire crashing down on top of it. A
certain Tarot card comes to mind.
> Second we need to consider that we are expanding now and hope to continue
>expanding. We need therefor to design our institutions to future needs,
more than >looking back on the model of a republic that ultimately failed.
Reconstructionism is not to rebuild the Tower of Babel according to then
original design, agreed. To study history is to profit by its lessons in
past failures, or to be a bloody fool.
> Debate on the main list alone may address one problem at a time, and can
lead to >another corrective measure to amend the Constitution. But that is
only leading to a >mass of disconnected and confusing leges. Sine necesitate
pluralitas non est
> ponenda. We really need to look at some more fundamental correction to the
> problem.
Very persuasively argued.
Bene vale,
Vado.
Pro di immortales, quod bonam felix faustumque sit! Ita, O Quirites, di
consentes faxint.
Valete
Moravius Piscinus
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/8/_/61050/_/971555829/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Diocletianus is back... |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:48:23 +0200 |
|
Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus et Collegibus S.P.D
I´m back from my short travel to Soltau, Lower Saxony, Germania. I´m
sorry, there were no roman remainings nearby. The only things I found
were some quiet days with a lot of time to think about many topics.
I´m very happy to be back.
Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/8/_/61050/_/971556683/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
|
