Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Censor Nota Hearing
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:21:15 -0800

----- Original Message -----
From: <gmvick32@-------->
To: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Censor Nota Hearing

> Salvete Censori:
>
> I in no way intended to suggest that the job of Censor isn't
time-consuming, that you aren't committed to your jobs, or doing your best
to exercise your offices. I realize you are working hard for Nova Roma.

I understand that....but I felt it was needed nevertheless.

> I would be happy to run for Censor. Of course, I cannot, because I'll be
Rogator for the election and as Rogator cannot run for any elected office.
It certainly won't match your devotion to NR, but I expect for a few weeks
I'll be quite busy with tabulations. If I were to run for office, based on
your description of what you do, I think I could probably streamline some of
those tasks.

Livia, I think you should work up the Cursus Honorum. Learn more about the
government and how it runs before you run for the Censorship. I would never
recommend to anyone to start off at the Censorship first. Become Quaestor,
Praetor, then Consul, and then.....Censor. Its the proper way...the way of
Honor.

> For example, I bet you a neat little program could be written to generate
voter codes, tribe assignments, etc. for you. I bet another thing we could
do would be to set up forms so that most, if not all, citizen applications
could be dynamically uploaded to the citizen database.

My excellent scribe, M. Octavius Germancius is helping the Censors with
that. But the tribal assignments and Century points will probably be done
via excel for now.

> Feel free to use these ideas yourself. Heck, feel free to ask me to help
you with them. I might find time to help you, squeezing it in with my own
50 hour a week job, my graduate school studies, the physical therapy I need,
my Rogatorship, my research on the Cornelii for you and my web project for
you, working to establish my regio for Nova Roma and the friends that I'm
making locally, researching how I might build web-interactive maps for
Audens, and the business I'm organizing to take to the Ordo Equester.

Livia I think your overworked at this juncture. As I have told you on AIM.
I am pleased that you have offered to help, but that doenst help if you have
your time spread out so much that you are paralyzed by inaction.

> In fact, since I'm taking programming classes next semester, it would be a
great time to work on programmatic algorithms to streamline your tallying
work.

If you have the time, feel free to communicate with M. Octavius Germancius
he can bring you up to speed.

> > I believe my post yesterday answers your issue about communication. The
Censors discussed whether or not we should communicate this case to the
People, both Censors agreed it would be a more equitiable case for this
hearing to be held in privacy.
>
> You don't answer my issue about communication, because you still don't
show recognition that I dispute the decision you made. But, I think it's
beating a dead horse to continue arguing down that path. So I'll stop.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Reprimand Part 2
From:	"Nicolaus Moravius" <n_moravius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:09:16 GMT

Salve Cai Iuli

(I assume that is how you wish to be known here?)

You ask why Fimbria was not made to apologise to the gods, since Sulla was.
Good point. This is how it seems to me:

The man Cincinnatus was ridiculed. His views on the religio may also have
been ridiculed, but his office as a flamen was not ridiculed, nor was the
religio itself. Nor was there any apparent intention of blasphemy, or of
derogating the man Cincinnatus as a practitioner of the religio. I don't
think, therefore, that Fimbria was in violation of Article VI Section 1 of
the Constitution - any more than Sulla was when he was reprimanded.

One other point which I think is important: Fimbria is a Christian, and
Sulla - as you will know from your reading the archives - is a Jew.
Now from my own personal standpoint as a pagan, I find the requirement in
either case for a monotheist to apologise to a pantheon, absurd. Any such
apology, where the religio is seen to have been disrespected, should be to
the practitoners of the religio alone. Even so, in neither Sulla's case nor
Fimbria's, did I feel myself to have been offended as a Roman pagan, and
therefore required, and require, no apology.

It beats me why the gods would ever indicate that they wanted an apology
from someone who didn't believe in them, but maybe you'd better ask the
augures about that ;-).

Bene vale,

N. Moravius Vado
Flamen Floralis.

> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 04:29:25 -0800
> From: "C. Iulius" <ancientrome@-------->
>Subject: The Reprimand part 2
>
>I do apologize for cluttering up this email list, however, I have been
>investigating and thinking about this issue since this issue has come to
>light. Before I get into my thoughts, I just want to thank those
>individuals who responded to my inquiry. My own thoughts run someone
>parallel to ex-Praetor Magister in that both Reprimands should have never
>occurred. But, since they have we must deal with the consequences they
>bring. Hopefully a magistrate in the future might try to pass a law
>prohibiting this type of legislation. But on to my thoughts.
>
>While my knowledge of Roman Paganism is very limited. Perhaps
>non-existent, I have observed this list for some time. Not only that but I
>have investigated the Archives. Especially revolving around the previously
>issued reprimand against Lucius Cornelius. At the time of his reprimand,
>an Augur stated that he (Lucius Cornelius) must apologize to the Gods of
>Rome. (See Message #4925) According to the archives (See message #5630)
>Lucius Cornelius completed that task given to him by the Augur. Now, we
>all know from the posts earlier that what Lucius Cornelius did was a wrong
>against the Senate.
>
>My question revolves around this current reprimand. According to the
>information I have read from the recent posts and archives, Lucia Maria
>impersonated Lucius Equitius. Lucius Equitius is not only a Senator but he
>is also a Pontiff, Augur and a Flamen Martialis. My question is what has
>Lucia Maria done to seek forgiveness or penance from the Gods of Rome? It
>seems to me that to while the reprimand centered around the act of
>impersonating a citizen, there was nothing stating to the fact of her
>impersonating one of Nova Roma's religious officers, and thereby
>disrespecting the Religio, which seems to violate Article VI Section 1 of
>the Nova Roma Constitution where it states, "citizens need not be
>practitioners of the Religio Romana, but may not engage in any activity
>that intentionally blasphemes or defames the Gods, the Religio Romana, or
>its practitioners."

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Subject:	[novaroma] Naval miniatures rules, Re: Availability inquiry
From:	Megas-Robinson <amgunn@-------->
Date:	Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:36:56 -0600

Avete!

Venator hic:

To those with whom I've discussed Fletcher Pratt in the past. GOOD NEWS!!!

HudsonGame@-------- wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/31/00 2:28:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> amgunn@-------- writes:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Is "FLETCHER PRATT'S NAVAL WAR GAME" still available?
> >
> > Thank you - Steven Robinson
> >
> Mr. Robinson,
>
> Yes, we still have Fletcher Pratts Naval War Game. Would you like to order
> it?
>
> Thank You,
>
> Hudson's Hobby Games

This reply was within 6 hours of when I sent in the inquiry!

In officium - Venii

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Subject:	[novaroma] Dropping topics
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:10:17 +0100

Salvete Aeternia,

I can imagine that this topic is boring you, and may be boring a lot of others, too, but hey, not everything can be exciting or interesting on the main list. It's correct that this subject has about reached a stage in which the people discussing won't reach an agreement anymore, but I do think it is an important matter, not because of the people involved, but because of the decisions made.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Reprimand, yet again.
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:07:42 +0100

Salvete omnes,

> CINCINNATUS: I suppose that this means you approve of her conduct? ...
> DRACO: This is full of wild suggestions in my opinion...
>
> L Equitius: I suppose you have a different suggestion considering
Formosanus' defense of her actions?

Yes I do. From what I heard there were two impersonations. You didn't even
know of the first one at first, so that one could have never had the meaning
to harm you in any way, be it as a person, be it as a pontifex or senator;
and the second one was done on April 1st.

> SENATORES and deleted my responses to inaccuracies made by other
Senatores,
> while allowing them to continue making statements. She could have just as
> easily "obliged" herself to "discipline" each side in that discussion,
> nonne?
> DRACO: Nowhere have I found proof of this statement in the message
archives.
> Could you indicate me a date to search on, optime?
>
> L Equitius: That is because my responses were DELETED. RTFQ (read the FULL
quote)

I think this is an inacurracy. Only ONE response was ever deleted. I heard
that this happened during a debate between you and another NR citizen, and
that things got heated. Marius requested both of you to calm down, and
obviously that was ignored, and that's why one posting was held back. So I
don't think it's worth all that much fuss.

> DRACO: Isn't an apology asking for forigiviness?
>
> L Equitius: Depends on how it is stated, also if it is part of some
condition or coerced then it is meaningless.

Then why was it included in the conditions? If you didn't want one
whatsoever, it didn't have much use other than to humiliate a returning
citizen. Even if you think that the apology wasn't truly meant, it's a least
a step in the right direction, a step you refused to take.

> DRACO: You seem like someone who wants clear evidence of all statements.
>
> L Equitius: If someone is going on and making all sort of assertions, I
think it is reasonable for them to be able to prove, at least, SOME of them.
>
> DRACO: Now then, I ask you what these additional 'things' are. If they
aren't mentioned
> on the reprimand they must be not very important, estne?
>
> L Equitius: That is a matter of opinion and it was left out that she was
in the habit of using various names. Since many of us have cognomen it was
felt that we should not complicate the reprimand by adding that clause.
However, make no mistake, if I use Cincinatus or Lucius Equitius I'm not
being deceitful, but if I use a completely different name then I'm not being
honest. She had other names.
>

Towards what ends? If they were just other nicknames, and he said it was
still good ol' Marius, then I wouldn't see any harm. Even not if they
wouldn't know it, and he'd not be harming *anyone*, who cares.

> DRACO: And as for "proof
> of her actions", you are making it sound as though Marius committed some
> kind of murder, while in fact it comes down to a tasteless joke and a
> personal argument.
>
> L Equitius: Let's clear it up for you. She IMPERSONATED a fellow citizen
who is also an official. I have had no argument with her, since I avoid her
as I have stated before I ignore her.
> Go on now if you think that is ok, Go out and pass yourself off as an
officer and see what happens to you. Yes, we are a micro-**nation** and
more, we are a society and impersonating our fellow citizens will not be
tolerated.
>

He impersonated you *once* in public, and not with the intention to ridicule
your *office*. And in my opinion avoiding someone is not quite a healthy
solution. If you are convinced of the fact that you are right and he is
wrong, then why don't you start a debate with each other in private. As
Marius hasn't spoken (and is actually not even *allowed* to!), it seems to
me that this issue bothers you still more than it does him.
And it was not a continueing impersonation, either, that was meant to remove
you from office with, or anything else.

************************

> FORMOSANUS: It is worth considering whether the person in question might
> have in someone's opinion merited such disrespect by the character and
> manner in which he carried out his duties?
> CINCINNATUS: Impersonation, that's the crime.
>
> DRACO: You are ignoring pater Formosanus' question; rather, you give a
> counterattack than a decen answer. Question yourself instead of
questioning
> the question.
>
> L Equitius: I ignored nothing. I only pointed out that it is not critique
that is the issue, but rather impersonation.
>
> FORMOSANUS: Apparently true, although I seem also to have heard that it
was
> murder.
> CINCINNATUS: Yes, and there were multiple instances testified to in that
> charge. So in the end it seems that there was a 'murder' and a 'suicide',
at
> least.
>
> DRACO: Murder ànd suicide?
>
> L Equitius: Yep, you may consider it a joke; however, if it is so funny
why not do you instead? OR she could do herself.
>
> DRACO: Yes, **private** seems an appropriate term for me to solve this
> vendetta!
>
> L Equitius: Yep, she sure should have. I have also seen your rational that
because she did this I must have some how deserved it. I consider that
argument similar to the rapist who says the woman was asking for it because
of her dress. Yes, I deserved it because she didn't like me.
>

But rapists are deranged people. Are you trying to tell me that Marius is
deranged? According to your example he should be, and you should be totally
innocent. It would seem very unrealistic to me that it would ever be
tolerated that a nut be the Curator Sermonis, therefore I think your example
is wrong. There is no total polarization of "guilt" and "innocence" here. As
I may note, your career within NR hasn't gone by flawlessly as well. So
there are no pure villains in here, neither are there superheroes.

> CINCINNATUS: I'm so sorry to disappoint you, but I suppose you never
> considered how her actions impacted me. You have decided that she is
correct
> and that I'm the villain without ever hearing from me. Now who is being
> 'unjust'?
> DRACO: Then prove your "innocence". Then explain me why so many people
chose
> the side of Marius, or; are against this 'big cannon show'.
>
> L Equitius: Maybe you should explain to me why so many Senatores voted to
condemn her actions.
> As for proving my innocence, are you making a charge against me? In any
case it would be up to you to prove your case against me, not mine to prove
innocence.

Asking to prove innocence is not a charge. It is a question, amice. Why
can't you just answer it instead of getting juridical with me?

>
> CINCINNATUS: I would like for you to explain why a CONSUL would 'pull off
a
> Coup'? OR how?... Maybe you've jumped to conclusions. Perhaps, you ought
to ask
> F Vedius Germanicus why he did as he did.
>
> DRACO: This is an amusing response, given the fact that you seem to
consider
> Consul as the highest authority, while it is actually counterbalanced by a
> lot of other institutions. And there are *two* Consuls, thus, a coup would
> be setting aside the other, and bringing down some important enemies.
>
> L Equitius: Again, read the quote. I pointed out that, "BTW the Consules
under the original constitution were
> most senior magistrates so what would a 'coup' prove?" CONSULES that's
plural, as is magistrates.

Taking power alone for yourself. Consules don't have absolute power.

> DRACO:
> However, supposed that you did not try to pull off a coup, what did you do
> then? Why were you exiled? It would be easy for you to defend yourself by
> saying what you did, while you aren't doing this. In fact, you are
throwing
> this hot potato at the former Dictator instead of answering yourself.
>
> L Equitius: He is the one who did those things. I, unlike some people,
don't pretend to know what others are thinking. So go ask F Vedius
Germanicus his reasons (I believe that he is not subscribed to this list,
but you can find his email in the Nova Roma website).
>

Do I smell an insinuation here? Hmm. Anyway, as you politely say that you
can't speak for the former Dictator, then you shouldn't speak in a
condemnative tone about Marius either, as you are also making assertions
here and there, or at least exaggerations.

> CINCINNATUS: The Senate considered the matter and voted during the time
that
> She was not a citizen. What this means is that she had no 'rights' under
> Nova Roma.
>
> DRACO: Hmm, how convenient.
>
> L Equitius: Really, some things are not complicated. She quit, no one
forced her to leave and no one knew she would return. The Senate still needs
to take action when something such as impersonation of citizens takes place,
like the Senate did in protecting the state Religio when that fellow defamed
the Gods and their worshippers (he was exiled but returned under a different
name but was found out and again sent packing).
>

So, are you trying to tell me that even if Marius would never have returned,
the Senate would still have issued a reprimand against nobody?

> CINCINNATUS: The Senate acted to make a statement that her actions were
not
> condoned and would not be tolerated in the future. For your information
> there are other online 'communities' that do take action against members
for
> just this type of thing.
>
> DRACO: Yes, but Nova Roma pretends to be a micro-**nation**, doesn't it?
So
> this is of a totally different nature than a reprimand by the chairman of
> let's say an online books club. If I imitate someone here where I live, it
> would be hardly considered a crime - it would be even amusing.
>
> L Equitius: If you take someone's identity it is a crime. Go test this
yourself if you think I'm wrong.
>

It's not considered a true crime when it happens on April 1st, and when it
happens only once in public.

Valete,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	[novaroma] Historical Dates wanted
From:	dougies@--------
Date:	Wed, 01 Nov 2000 11:17:14 -0000

Ave quirites et pater conscripti,

I know this breaks up the constant bombardment of letters about Senate
roles and the reprimand of Maria Fimbria, but I guess we could all do
with a break. I was wondering if anyone could help me by providing
dates for events, such as battles, dedications of temples, founding of
festivals, dates of publishing for literary works...anything would be
appreciated. If you could e-mail them back to me, I would be most
grateful for any help you could render in this area.

Valete Bene,
"Stranger, go tell the Spartans that here we lie, obedient to their
command" - Leonidas

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

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Subject:	[Fwd: [novaroma] Historical Dates wanted]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 01 Nov 2000 03:02:14 -0800

That damned reply feature again...LOL

Sulla Felix

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Ave
>
> Can you be a bit more specific? What battles in question? Which temples?
> What literary works?
>
> I can do some research for you then. :)
>
> Sulla Felix
> Censor
>
> dougies@-------- wrote:
>
> > Ave quirites et pater conscripti,
> >
> > I know this breaks up the constant bombardment of letters about Senate
> > roles and the reprimand of Maria Fimbria, but I guess we could all do
> > with a break. I was wondering if anyone could help me by providing
> > dates for events, such as battles, dedications of temples, founding of
> > festivals, dates of publishing for literary works...anything would be
> > appreciated. If you could e-mail them back to me, I would be most
> > grateful for any help you could render in this area.
> >
> > Valete Bene,
> > "Stranger, go tell the Spartans that here we lie, obedient to their
> > command" - Leonidas
> >
> > Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
> >

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Subject:	[novaroma] [Fwd: Historical Dates wanted]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 01 Nov 2000 03:12:02 -0800

Craig Stevenson wrote:

> Ave Lucius Cornelius,
>
> I'm looking for any dates, but more specifically the harder to come by ones,
> such as the minor battles or not often mentioned ones during the Marcommanic
> wars, or the minor battles against the Goths...mostly the things that most
> people wouldn't know much about, such as the creation of festivals like the
> Saturnalia and so forth. I'm just looking for general dates for things Roman
> so that I can update my timeline.
>
> Thanks for your help,
> Vale,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

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Subject:	[novaroma] Historical Battles - Dates needed
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 01 Nov 2000 03:24:36 -0800

This post is combined from C. Sentius Bruttius Sura:

I'm looking for any dates, but more specifically the harder to come by
ones,
such as the minor battles or not often mentioned ones during the
Marcommanic
wars, or the minor battles against the Goths...mostly the things that
most
people wouldn't know much about, such as the creation of festivals like
the
Saturnalia and so forth. I'm just looking for general dates for things
Roman
so that I can update my timeline.

Things like the battle of Chalons, the reasons and circumstances
surrounding the
soldier emperors rise and falls. This is the main area I'm interested in
finding
out about, as well as battles with Persia (Septimus Severus, Galerius
etc.). These
are hard to find specific information on, and any information found is
very, very
vague.

Also the invasions of the Lombards, Vandals, Visigoths and so forth.

Also, I'd like to get some dates from the smaller battles in the civil
wars
(Marius and Sulla), the revolt of Lepidus, the Mithridatic wars and the
Sertorian
Wars.

Can some of us help out with information about this topic?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Historical Battles - Dates needed
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:01:14 -0000

Salvete

Today is precisely the aniversary of a battle. It was a battle at the Porta
Collina in Rome in which Sulla defeated the Samnite army of Telesinus in 82
BC. See the religious posting for today.

Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus

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Subject:	[Fwd: [novaroma] Historical Battles - Dates needed]
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 01 Nov 2000 03:30:17 -0800

Lucius Cornelius Sulla wrote:

> Hey thats wonderful!!!! What an auspicious day!!! :)
>
> Thank you for that information!!!
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>
> Antonio Grilo wrote:
>
> > Salvete
> >
> > Today is precisely the aniversary of a battle. It was a battle at the Porta
> > Collina in Rome in which Sulla defeated the Samnite army of Telesinus in 82
> > BC. See the religious posting for today.
> >
> > Valete
> > Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> >

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Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Kalendae Novembres (November 1st)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:21:47 -0000

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies fasti (F), on which legal actions are permitted.

This is the day of the Kalendae Novembres. This month is sacred to Diana.
Today the Pontifices announce the Nonas from the Curia Calabra, after
performing a sacrifice to Iuno,
where Ianus is also invoked. The announcement is performed by a Pontifex
Minor, who,
for November, invokes Iuno Covella on the fifth day of the month:
"Die Quinti te kalo Iuno Covella"
The Regina Sacrorum also sacrifices to Iuno at the Regia.

This is the last day of the Ludi Victoriae Sullanae, which started on
October 26th.
These games were instituted by
dictator Sulla in 81 BCE to cellebrate his victory over the
samnites commanded by Telesinus in 82 BCE at the Porta Collina in Rome.
November 1st is precisely the day of the battle and it is cellebrated with
circus games.
The games were originally
called Ludi Victoriae, but their name was changed, possibly to distinguish
them from the Ludi Victoriae Caesaris.

Pax Dorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

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Subject:	[novaroma] Reprimand, yet again.
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:07:14 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus Senatori L. Equitio Cincinnato et aliis
Quiritibus S.P.D.

It is only proper to respond to some of the things you have said,
Cincinnate, so I shall do so. I leave out some of the less
interesting parts from the standpoint of my replies for the comfort
and convenience of everyone.

Salvete,

CINCINNATUS: I suppose that this means you approve of her conduct?
..
DRACO: This is full of wild suggestions in my opinion...

L Equitius: I suppose you have a different suggestion considering
Formosanus' defense of her actions?

MAF: Insofar (which is not very far) as Marius was "attacking" you
without provocation, just because of dislike, I would be *against*
his actions, actually. However, I seem to see more clearly than you
that there is a category of life called "play" and that a play
assassination is *not real* - and that reacting to play as though it
were a deeply serious matter or even a threat is completely
inappropriate. If you could just laugh back at him, I rather think
that Marius would be completely disarmed.

SENATORES and deleted my responses to inaccuracies made by other
Senatores, while allowing them to continue making statements. She
could have just as easily "obliged" herself to "discipline" each side
in that discussion, nonne?

MAF: Marius informed me that the other side had been quietly
disciplined and actually did calm down, whereas you did not.

DRACO: Nowhere have I found proof of this statement in the message
archives..Could you indicate me a date to search on, optime?

L Equitius: That is because my responses were DELETED. RTFQ (read
the FULL quote)

MAF: Marius informs me that only one letter of yours was actually
witheld from the list after your posts were monitored IIRC. But
surely the previous posts that had won the curator's ire are still
there, since they were actually made? (If not, that would be a very
interesting story that I would wish to hear.)

CINCINNATUS: Sulla actually worked with the Senate AND his
colleague to produce a workable solution to this problem. IF you
disagree with the result, that is your opinion.

DRACO: It seems to me he had no other choice than to do as he was
told, or he would never regain Roman citizenship. And if a pompous
Senatusconsultum is the "workable solution", I wonder then what the
word "unworkable" means to you?

L Equitius: Go back and read the last bit over. I'm referring to the
Edict Gentilium, "unworkable" may be trying to explain the situation.

MAF: I too had assumed from your wording that you meant the
senatusconsultum. "Workable" does certainly not describe the edict on
name changes (Edictum de Nominibus Mutandis), if that is what you
mean, if we assume that a workable piece of legislation should also
be just to individuals and minorities - which I do assume.

DRACO: Isn't an apology asking for forgiveness?

L Equitius: Depends on how it is stated, also if it is part of some
condition or coerced then it is meaningless.

MAF: Marius' apology was coerced but sincere. It restores a piece of
your public dignitas in the only decent and humane way that this can
be done. And it gives you a chance to accept and initiate less
acrimonious relations. I do not consider all that to be meaningless.

DRACO: And as for "proof of her actions", you are making it sound as
though Marius committed some kind of murder, while in fact it comes
down to a tasteless joke and a personal argument.

L Equitius: Let's clear it up for you. She IMPERSONATED a fellow
citizen who is also an official. I have had no argument with her,
since I avoid her as I have stated before I ignore her.
Go on now if you think that is ok, Go out and pass yourself off as an
officer and see what happens to you. Yes, we are a micro-**nation**
and more, we are a society and impersonating our fellow citizens will
not be tolerated.

MAF: I quite agree that we would do well to put legislation before a
Comitia to make impersonation illegal. Not everyone might do it only
for play or an April Fools' Day joke. However, when he simply took
your rôle as an actor in a skit in a private and non-Nova Roman
location, he was not committing impersonation in a sense normally
covered by anti-impersonation laws.

And in fact there was no Nova Roman law to guide him in the case of
the April Fools' Day gag. A law being lacking, different people's
judgement of what is reasonable and fair in amusement can differ in
good faith.

L Equitius: Yep, she sure should have. I have also seen your rational
that because she did this I must have some how deserved it. I
consider that argument similar to the rapist who says the woman was
asking for it because of her dress. Yes, I deserved it because she
didn't like me.

MAF: I think that in a way you have a point here, mi Cincinnate. You
unfortunately made many people irritated with you because of your
style (I can say nothing of the substance) as Consul, which is based
on your personality. (I do not say that to pass judgement on your
personality, just to state a fact about others' reactions.) They
sought private relief from the frustrations and tensions involved by
having a little skit about you in a private place. Shared humour
rather than shared invective was used because the self-importance
that they attribute to you seemed to *their* personalities conducive
to laughter.

I am by personality rather more serious, like you, Senator, and I
fully understand why their behaviour was galling to you. But there
*is* a difference of personalities involved here. They sought to
share and dissipate their dislike through humour on the occasion in
question. People of a different temperament might have sworn at you
and hatched practical plots against you.

So, I do not wish to say that you deserved being treated as a figure
of fun. I was not there, I do not know you that well, and I do not
have their personality type.

That having been said, I think it would have been nicer if you had
gone off to a private place with a few friends and enacted a skit
about Marius, had done to him in imaginative detail what suggests
itself, and had come back with less desire to crush and humiliate him
utterly in the real world through the measures you instigated in the
Senate. I am sure he would consider that to have been nicer too - and
our Respublica would also have been grateful.

CINCINNATUS: I'm so sorry to disappoint you, but I suppose you never
considered how her actions impacted me. You have decided that she is
correct and that I'm the villain without ever hearing from me. Now
who is being 'unjust'?

MAF: Fair enough, but the greatest part of the impact on you has been
the peculiarly intense and serious way in which you took playful
actions. And a private skit and public impersonation on April Fools'
Day do not correspond in degree of injury with your support of laws
against Marius' sexual minority that caused enormous personal
suffering, and more recently your instigation or encouragement of
humiliating conditions for the return of someone who had committed no
crime, the issuance of a Reprimand against him for perfectly legal
pranks, and the issuance of a Nota to deprive him of important civil
rights and undermine his personal dignitas in our community.

If you were once in any degree victim, you have by manyfold turned
into the persecutor since, and dragged Senate and magistrates of the
Respublica with you in a manner earning them disrespect for the
injustice involved in the disproportiateness.

Would it not be better to accept his apology, Cincinnate, and
magnanimously let bygones be bygones? For the good of Nova Roma?

QUIRITES! Even if he regards Marius as an enemy, it is wrong
of a Senator to put so much energy into a campaign to damage a simple
citizen. Doing so to one who is of a sexual minority, doing so when
he is in a vulnerable position because of reapplying for citizenship,
and doing so in ways that are of exceedingly doubtful legality and
have resulted in a ludicrous overpunishment just make his behaviour
that much worse.

It is clear to me at least that Cincinnatus, the Consuls, Senate, and
Censor Sulla owe Marius an apology by now, and that the Reprimand
should be rescinded and the nota proceedings cancelled - and that the
special conditions imposed on him to humiliate and muzzle be removed
at once.

Things have been allowed to get out of hand, and after this lesson to
the Respublica we must get our legal system in order in a way that
will protect the rights of every civis, every applicant for civis and
every returnee, and guarantee us all against personal and political
vendettas.

Valete!
.

Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius
ICQ# 61698049 Firetalk: Apollonius 1588367
AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________

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Subject:	[novaroma] This reprimand thing..
From:	Scott Dolleck <sdolzg@-------->
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:00:44 -0700

salvete.

I don't wish to offend any NR citizens but I
know that i'm not the only one when I say...
This repremand thing is getting VERY old!!
Can we please move on???
All I ask is we fix it so this never happens again.

Gratias Vobis ago
Lucius Avisius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] This reprimand thing..
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:22:19 -0800

Ave!

I agree completely. List Mistress, you have guidelines that you published.
Does this discussion deviate from your guidelins?

Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Censor of Nova Roma

- [Proud Owner of] bigoted notions of sexual propriety
- M. Apollonius Formosanus

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Dolleck" <sdolzg@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 3:00 PM
Subject: [novaroma] This reprimand thing..

> salvete.
>
> I don't wish to offend any NR citizens but I
> know that i'm not the only one when I say...
> This repremand thing is getting VERY old!!
> Can we please move on???
> All I ask is we fix it so this never happens again.
>
> Gratias Vobis ago
> Lucius Avisius
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] [NovaRomaLaws] Censor Nota Hearing
From:	Mike Macnair <MikeMacnair@-------->
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:23:33 -0500

Salvete!

Can I say that the account given by Sulla of the censorial Nota proceedings
appears procedurally sound. In the law of Roma Antiqua the Censors could
originally act without a hearing, but were required to give a hearing by
the Lex Clodia de censoribus of 58 BCE, one of the few wholly
uncontroversial acts of that Tribune. The hearing procedure seems
consistent with the general rules of natural justice.

In modern English or American law such a proceeding, after the prior
unconstitutional "reprimand" of the Senate, would be barred either on
grounds of double jeopardy, or on grounds that the prior proceeding
prejudiced the possibility of a fair trial. IMO, however, it is better that
something should be done in a regular manner than an irregular proceeding
left to stand alone.

Valete,

M. Mucius Scaevola Magister

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] This reprimand thing..
From:	DrususCornelius@--------
Date:	Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:32:02 EST

Salvete,

While I wish that the reprimand had never come about, I think it is
irresponsible of certain citizens to ask that we "move on" without resolving
the issue publicly. Nova Roma is not, or at least should not be, a
role-playing game. She is a nation, and public business is not always fun.
I'm sorry that new and exciting things don't always come about here (though
they usually do), but early on in our nation, issues like these must be
resolved and resolved thoroughly so that the rights of the citizens are well
defined and understood by all when Nova Roma becomes a larger and more
important force in the world.
I will refrain for now from arguing my opinion on the issue because the
vast majority of those who have spoken out have spoken on my side, and I
could hardly improve upon their words.

Thanks, your time is much appreciated :)

For the Senate and the Roman People, Valete!
Drusus Cornelius Claudius

In a message dated 11/1/00 3:01:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sdolzg@-------- writes:

<< salvete.

I don't wish to offend any NR citizens but I
know that i'm not the only one when I say...
This repremand thing is getting VERY old!!
Can we please move on???
All I ask is we fix it so this never happens again.

Gratias Vobis ago
Lucius Avisius
>>

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Subject:	[novaroma] MithraCon IV announcement
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Wed, 01 Nov 2000 18:48:07 -0500

Salvete omnes!

For those of you Citizens who are near New Haven, CT,
MithraCon IV (affectionately known as The Fourth New
England Conference on Mithraic Studies at New Haven)
will take place in early April. Here's a chance for
the cives to a) have one killer steak and ale dinner,
b) get a whole day to prrrowwwwl through Yale
University's Sterling Memorial Library, c) see the Dura
Europa mithraeum plus a buncha other Roman antiquities
including an amazing painted parade shield, and d) have
2 nights of informal colloquia (and presentations) of
material pertaining to cults and customs of the Roman
Empire. Several NR cives have attended in the past,
including my materfamilias Merlinia, and also Cassius
and P. Cassia....hey, you coming this year? Cassius,
can you bring more Roman antiquities to sell?

The event announcement is in the attachment. It would
be nice to have a good Nova Roma contingent on hand.
Chance for us to meet.

Valete,
Sibylla Ambrosia Fulvia

----------

THE FOURTH NEW ENGLAND CONFERENCE ON MITHRAISM
IN NEW HAVEN

Mithracon IV

This is an informal research convention concentrating on early mythology and religion,
especially Mithraism and other cults of the Roman Empire. It is held in New Haven, CT,
the home of Yale University. We plan to spend most of Saturday in Yale's Sterling
Memorial Library doing whatever research your heart desires. After dinner (the usual
pilgrimage to the New Deal Steak House), there will be informal presentations (a Carousel
slide projector and an overhead projector will be available), as well as some darn good
discussions. Sunday: visit the Dur Europa mithraeum (Yale Art Gallery). The hotel is
within walking distance of the library and gallery. A Staples (cheap Xeroxing!) and a
Barnes & Noble bookstore are also close by. We can also plan a used book shopping
expedition for Sunday afternoon; there are some good dealers in the area.

Dates: Friday, April 6 - Sunday, April 8, 2001.

Hotel: the Holiday Inn at Yale (203) 777-6221. Mention MithraCon IV for the con rates.
Rooms: $79 + tax (12% includes city/state/etc. taxes ) (2 dbl beds or 1 king);
rollaway $10 extra.
Free courtesy van from public transportation (arrange that when you reserve your
room); including from Tweed-New Haven airport. Free parking at hotel.
Please reserve your room early, as the hotel fills up fast and we only have a smallish
block reserved (10 rooms). Rooms *must* be reserved by March 23 to get con
rates; the price goes way up after that. More rooms can be added if we fill the
block early and if the hotel still has space.

Con registration: $20 to February 1, $25 to March 1, $30 to March 15, and $35 thereafter.
Send reservations (and make checks out) to:
Jane T. Sibley, P.O. Box 123, Haddam, CT 06438. If you have questions,
Email me at jrsibley@-------- -- I'm the entire concom.

Dealers: there is no dealers' room per se, but you can bring items to our function room.
Since you'll probably want to hit the library during the day instead of sitting there
hoping for a customer, folks can see what you've got during the evening sessions.

Directions to the site: From I-95, take exit 47 (Downtown New Haven). From I-91 S, take
exit 1 (Downtown New Haven). Proceed to the 2nd exit off the connector, and continue to
the 2nd light. Take a right onto York Street. You will pass the traffic light at Crown St.,
then the one at Chapel St. Turn left on Broadway (Au Bon Pain is on the far left corner.
Broadway becomes Whalley Ave. after 2 blocks (just at the end of the parking lot on the
left); the hotel is on the left.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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