Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:56:58 EST

Salve Marcus Scribonius

While the tax proposal on the table is the Senior Consul's and the
Senate's, not mine, I have long been a proponent of some sort of tax, and
I have to question the thinking of someone who has repeatedly petitioned
for a waiver of qualifications so that they could run for office, yet
doesn't want the government to function like a government. Without income
to fund its purposes, a government is just a charade. If you just want to
be a *pretend* magistrate, I think you should get involved in your
school's drama department and not in the government of Nova Roma. Of
course you'll probably be asked to contribute some cash to be involved in
the Drama Dept. as well.... possibly more than this tax proposal calls
for.

On 11/3/00 1:10 PM marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
(marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------) wrote:

>Salvete Quirites,
>
>I hope what I am about to say does not offend anyone. I certainly
>mean no offense to anyone. This is simply a subject I am
>understandably passionate about.
Passionate? -obviously. Understandably? - no.
>
>We now have to pay to run for magistracies? Or to vote? I'm sorry,
>but that is not right for a nation on the net. I understand the tax
>on the Equestrian class, because they're getting advertisement on the
>NR page. But for the rest of us?
You shouldn't be asked to contribute? Then evidently you either want
nothing from Nova Roma, or you want something for nothing. Which is it?
>
>I think we're doing a great thing with NR. But tax NR citizens and
>it turns into a macronation.
Which is exactly what it was founded to turn into. Re-read the Web site.

> I understand that is the dream of many
>people here, but there are other ways to get money other than taxing
>people. And certainly while we're a micronation, this site is a way
>to contact other people who are as fanatical about Roman life as
>ourselves.
Fanatical about not paying for what they get? Frankly I think fanatics
are probably the last thing we need here.
>
>It's basically saying to newcomers:
>
>Come into NR! There's no cost at all, unless you want to run for
>office or vote in the people who help decide NR's future!
That's basically right. And your point is...?
>
>That's like asking people to pay to work! After all, while I take
>great satisfaction in helping A nation such as NR grow, I don't want
>to have to pay to be able to have that!
Re-read that statement of yours, Marcus Scribonius. You want to take
great satisfaction from helping Nova Roma grow, but you're not interested
in helping to fund it?
>
>Some people in NR are young like myself, and we are still supporting
>ourselves financially, and supporting NR financially as well could be
>a major problem!
We all have to set our priorities. No one here would think less of you if
you chose not to pay taxes. However there is no reason why you should
claim a right to hold office or vote if you can't find it in yourself to
forgo a pizza and a six-pack *once annually* to help support this nation
you are so "passionate" about.
>
>Valete,
>MArcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
>

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.


sic friatur crustum dulce.

(Thus the cookie crumbles.)

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 02:03:53 -0000

Salvete
I just read the post, and found the tax proposal really disgusting.
As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it. If money is
neded, why not to look for others ways, such as advertising on the NR
web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well on the
Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary payment, like in
Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and it works!!). I
wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the same way I do not
have to pay just for being citizen of my macronation). If we have to
pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the right and
obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and has nothing to do
with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a macronation.
By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to grow in
population, because most people wouldn´t like to become citizens.
So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
Valete
L. Pompeius Octavianus


--- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> Salvete Quirites
>
> As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax proposal.
Several
> Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that the details
be
> brought to the attention of the citizens. The original proposal has
just
> been revised in some respects in response to senatorial discussion.
Here
> is the current proposal:
>
> I. The Amount
> The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should
be
> between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury
some
> status,
> and still be affordable by most people.
> If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis
that
> would
> be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works
best.
> This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial
> situation
> at the start of each fiscal year.
> II Requirements:
> In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will
be
> taxed
> in the following manners.
> A. The poll Tax:
> The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes
> Primus
> and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens
or
> Class,
> they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes
Primus are
> those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including
> voting,
> and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have
their
> taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good
standing is
> called a member of the Classes Primus.
> Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and
attend
> Nova
> Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical
knowledge,
> are
> called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of
Rome,
> they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the
same as
> the
> Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They
> cannot
> vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express
their
> opinion in "public."
> Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by
paying
> only
> their current owed taxes.
> There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise
the
> Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their
current
> taxes.
> They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
> B. The Sales Tax.
> Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are required to
give a
> percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury. This
percentage
> will
> be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman fiscal year.
> C. Emergency tax
> The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis,
may
> call on
> Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional
monies to
> the
> Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely
> voluntary,
> and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of status.
There
> may
> be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> D. Donations
> Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However
such
> donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to
paid.
>
> II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman Saturnalia
> (December)
> will be the end of collection period for the bulk of taxes.
Citizens may
> began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis (August). If
their
> tax is
> not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus) from
that
> point
> their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be noted.
Citizens
> that do
> not remit their tax at the beginning of the period (Sexilis
through
> Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the Treasury of
Rome.
> Note that this means that they still must pay current tax when the
time
> for
> them falls due.
>
> III. Collection
> There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them
directly
> to
> the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during
the tax
> gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes.
> The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will
have
> to
> convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be
the
> cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor
should be
> the
> collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can
convert
> these
> into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
> Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the
money
> order
> from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10%
of the
> gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will
involve
> some
> work.)
> Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the
> Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have
to
> send
> it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the
months
> Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the
Money
> Order
> cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after
the
> period
> the additional amount must be
> paid. (Consider it a penalty)
>
> IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales)
for the
> period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus
until
> the
> year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
> B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the
> decreed
> tax.
> Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax
> forgiveness.
> The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at
all. It
> is
> hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would set
a bad
> precedent.
> While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always
the
> chance
> that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money
forward,
> keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in
that
> province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would
have
> to
> deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be
extended
> by
> the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the
time.
> (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
>
> V. Implementing:
> This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are
to
> move
> on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
> I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius Cornelius
Sulla,
> and
> we both offer the Province of California as a pilot program this
year.
> This
> means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but with no
penalties
> to
> the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can report
back to
> the
> Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure finalized
enough
> to
> start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at least one Non
US
> Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the process this
> December, so
> we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
>
>
> Valete,
>
> Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> Tribunus Plebis
>
>
> cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti ballistas
habebunt.
>
> (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have ballistas.)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:21:30 -0700

I have no problem with the idea of a "tax". Think of it as membership dues,
if you will. It's the same thing, and the funds can only help support Nova
Roma. I support the idea of this.

Of course, Livia has questions:

1. I would like to have the Senate post the general procedure by which the
funds will be allocated. I also think the earlier comment to the list is a
fair one. I think we need an assurance that the money won't be pocketed by
any individual, except for justified and documented business expenses
incurred to support Nova Roma. I do realize there is already a procedure for
reimbursement of expenses, this is an acceptable procedure.

2. What provisions are being formulated for accountability of funds usage.
In other words, I assume the sums collected will be a matter of public record
and that we can, on request, see an accounting of the funds collected and how
they are allocated.

3. What provisions are being made for any reporting of monies gathered to the
macronation which Nova Roma exists inside?? I know that Nova Roma was filing
for 401(c)(3) status. Is this complete?? What magistrate is responsible for
filing quarterly reports to the US government? Even though a charitable
organization, there are still tax reports to be filed once money comes in.

4. If we have certain goals, like a fund for the Forum Romanum, shouldn't we
start setting aside a percentage in an established fund for such endeavors.

Specific comments below.

LSergAust@-------- wrote:

> Salvete Quirites
>
> As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax proposal. Several
> Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that the details be
> brought to the attention of the citizens. The original proposal has just
> been revised in some respects in response to senatorial discussion. Here
> is the current proposal:
>
> I. The Amount
> The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should be
> between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury some
> status, and still be affordable by most people.
> If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis that
> would be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works
> best.
> This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial
> situation at the start of each fiscal year.
>

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
I would rather see a fixed tax than a variable tax. I'd say that $25 per
cive should be adequate, but what of cases where there are multiple family
members in Nova Roma?? Also, if the Nova Roman isn't of voting age, there
should be a different rate. What about something like:

$25 per cive of the minimum age to run for office
$40 per husband/wife (legally married in their other macronation)
$15 per cive below the minimum age to run for office but old enough to vote
(i.e., student rate)


> II Requirements:
> In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will be
> taxed in the following manners.
> A. The poll Tax:
> The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes
> Primus and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens
> or
> Class, they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes
> Primus are
> those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including
> voting, and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have
> their
> taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good standing is
> called a member of the Classes Primus.
> Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and attend
> Nova Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical
> knowledge,
> are called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of
> Rome,
> they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the same as
> the Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They
> cannot vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express
> their
> opinion in "public." Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good
> standing by paying only their current owed taxes.
> There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise the
> Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their current
> taxes.
> They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
This is all acceptable to me.

> B. The Sales Tax.
> Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are required to give a
> percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury. This percentage
> will be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman fiscal year.

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
This should also be posted publicly.

> C. Emergency tax
> The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis, may
> call on Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional
> monies to
> the Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely
> voluntary, and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of
> status. There
> may be a drop in stature among their peers, however.

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
This is acceptable to me.

> D. Donations
> Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However such
> donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to paid.

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
This is acceptable. However, do we have 401(c)(3) status secured?? If so,
will these donations be tax deductible for U.S. citizens? And what of the
tax itself? Anybody more sophisticated in tax law than myself?

> II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman Saturnalia
> (December) will be the end of collection period for the bulk of taxes.
> Citizens may
> began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis (August). If their
> tax is not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus) from
> that
> point their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be noted. Citizens
>
> that do not remit their tax at the beginning of the period (Sexilis
> through
> Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the Treasury of Rome.
> Note that this means that they still must pay current tax when the time
> for them falls due.

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
This is a trifle confusing. So, we have from the Kalends of August to the
Kalends of November to make payment. Is that to the provincial governor?? Or
is the Kalends of November also the deadline for the provincial governor to
turn over the taxes to the Treasury.


> III. Collection
> There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them directly
> to the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during the
> tax
> gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes. The amount must
> be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will have to
> convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be the
> cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor should be
> the collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can convert
>
> these into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
> Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the money
> order from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10% of
> the
> gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will involve
> some work.)

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
WHOAAA.....does that go into the pocket of the praetor, or is the money to be
used to support the province in some way??? I'd rather see a stipulation here
that the money must be used for the province.

Also, what of provinces with no governor? Is there to be no money set aside
at any time for their express benefit?

> Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the
> Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have to
> send it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the
> months
> Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the Money
> Order cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after the
> period the additional amount must be paid. (Consider it a penalty)
>
> IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales) for the
> period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus until
> the year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
Clarification? One full calendar year from the date of their citizenship?? I
don't see the point for this stipulation.

> B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the
> decreed tax. Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for
> tax
> forgiveness. The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at
> all. It is hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would
> set a bad
> precedent. While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is
> always the
> chance that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money
> forward,
> keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in that
> province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would have to
> deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be extended
> by the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the time.
> (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
>

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
Are only the Eastern Provinces eligible for tax forgiveness??? This seems
something that should be generally available to any province, but criteria
should be set in place for when tax forgiveness is granted. One possible
criteria that could be proof of macronational GNP below a certain level.


> V. Implementing:
> This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are to
> move on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
> I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius Cornelius Sulla,
> and we both offer the Province of California as a pilot program this year.
> This means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but with no
> penalties
> to the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can report back to
> the Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure finalized enough
>
> to start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at least one Non US
> Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the process this
> December, so we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
>

LIVIA RESPONDEO:
This is confusing. We are only going to collect taxes in California the
first year?? The system is not rocket science, why not make it apply across
Nova Roma as a whole?

Question: Which office in Nova Roma is managing this?? The Censors??
Shouldn't it be the Quaestors in conjunction with the Treasury??

Livia Cornelia Aurelia


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Subject:	[Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal]
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:29:34 -0700

Actually, I'm not aware of any macronation that doesn't make
a citizen
pay for the the privilege of being a citizen. It's called
taxes folks.
I pay them yearly to the U.S. government, to the tune of
several thousand
dollars. I also pay a separate tax to the State of
Colorado for several
hundred more every year.

Every working citizen in every country in the world pays
taxes. What's
$25 or so a year to support the growth of Nova Roma??? Heck,
dues to the
SCA are more than that.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:

> Salvete
> I just read the post, and found the tax proposal really disgusting.
> As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it. If money is
> neded, why not to look for others ways, such as advertising on the NR
> web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well on the
> Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary payment, like in
> Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and it works!!). I
> wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the same way I do not
> have to pay just for being citizen of my macronation). If we have to
> pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the right and
> obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and has nothing to do
> with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a macronation.
> By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to grow in
> population, because most people wouldn´t like to become citizens.
> So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
> Valete
> L. Pompeius Octavianus
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > Salvete Quirites
> >
> > As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax proposal.
> Several
> > Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that the details
> be
> > brought to the attention of the citizens. The original proposal has
> just
> > been revised in some respects in response to senatorial discussion.
> Here
> > is the current proposal:
> >
> > I. The Amount
> > The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it should
> be
> > between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury
> some
> > status,
> > and still be affordable by most people.
> > If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province basis
> that
> > would
> > be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works
> best.
> > This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's financial
> > situation
> > at the start of each fiscal year.
> > II Requirements:
> > In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens will
> be
> > taxed
> > in the following manners.
> > A. The poll Tax:
> > The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The Classes
> > Primus
> > and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by Gens
> or
> > Class,
> > they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes
> Primus are
> > those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics including
> > voting,
> > and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must have
> their
> > taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good
> standing is
> > called a member of the Classes Primus.
> > Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and
> attend
> > Nova
> > Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical
> knowledge,
> > are
> > called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full citizens of
> Rome,
> > they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the
> same as
> > the
> > Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies. They
> > cannot
> > vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom, express
> their
> > opinion in "public."
> > Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by
> paying
> > only
> > their current owed taxes.
> > There will never be any back taxes that must be made up. Likewise
> the
> > Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their
> current
> > taxes.
> > They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
> > B. The Sales Tax.
> > Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are required to
> give a
> > percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury. This
> percentage
> > will
> > be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman fiscal year.
> > C. Emergency tax
> > The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial Crisis,
> may
> > call on
> > Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional
> monies to
> > the
> > Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is entirely
> > voluntary,
> > and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of status.
> There
> > may
> > be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> > D. Donations
> > Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged. However
> such
> > donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to
> paid.
> >
> > II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman Saturnalia
> > (December)
> > will be the end of collection period for the bulk of taxes.
> Citizens may
> > began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis (August). If
> their
> > tax is
> > not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus) from
> that
> > point
> > their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be noted.
> Citizens
> > that do
> > not remit their tax at the beginning of the period (Sexilis
> through
> > Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the Treasury of
> Rome.
> > Note that this means that they still must pay current tax when the
> time
> > for
> > them falls due.
> >
> > III. Collection
> > There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them
> directly
> > to
> > the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor during
> the tax
> > gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes.
> > The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces will
> have
> > to
> > convert the money into a money order. American Express seems to be
> the
> > cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor
> should be
> > the
> > collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can
> convert
> > these
> > into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
> > Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the
> money
> > order
> > from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain 10%
> of the
> > gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will
> involve
> > some
> > work.)
> > Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to the
> > Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will have
> to
> > send
> > it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during the
> months
> > Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take the
> Money
> > Order
> > cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after
> the
> > period
> > the additional amount must be
> > paid. (Consider it a penalty)
> >
> > IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> > A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales)
> for the
> > period of one year. They are considered members of Classes Primus
> until
> > the
> > year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
> > B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> > There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay the
> > decreed
> > tax.
> > Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax
> > forgiveness.
> > The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at
> all. It
> > is
> > hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would set
> a bad
> > precedent.
> > While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is always
> the
> > chance
> > that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money
> forward,
> > keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in
> that
> > province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome would
> have
> > to
> > deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be
> extended
> > by
> > the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the
> time.
> > (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
> >
> > V. Implementing:
> > This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we are
> to
> > move
> > on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
> > I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius Cornelius
> Sulla,
> > and
> > we both offer the Province of California as a pilot program this
> year.
> > This
> > means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but with no
> penalties
> > to
> > the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can report
> back to
> > the
> > Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure finalized
> enough
> > to
> > start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at least one Non
> US
> > Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the process this
> > December, so
> > we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
> >
> >
> > Valete,
> >
> > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > Tribunus Plebis
> >
> >
> > cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti ballistas
> habebunt.
> >
> > (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have ballistas.)

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:39:36 -0700

Salve, Claudia:

Some of the things tax monies could be used for that currently come out of private citizen pockets.

BUSINESS EXPENSES
1. Cost of paying for the server space our website is hosted on.
2. Cost of supporting Sodalitas and Provincial websites as well as the main site on servers.
3. Domain name fees for Nova Roma
4. Printing fees for materials passed out at live gatherings
5. Costs of legal filings
6. Fees for any professional services we might need to contract (legal fees, CPA fees, etc.) to maintain our charitable organization status.
7. Special software or hardware the webmasters might need to improve/expand the virtual infrastructure.
8. Funds to handle general fund expenses for local gathering places. You don't think events like Roman Days happen without having to pay a site fee, do you? Or that the feast happens because grocery stores donate the food??


CHARITABLE EXPENSES (these might prove valuable in maintaining charitable org status)
1. Scholarship funds for students majoring in the classics
2. Library funds
3. Education outreach to interest students in ancient history
4. Sponsorship of archeological digs

These are just a few justifiable uses for a few dollars.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia


Comptess wrote:

> Salvete
>
> I too am slightly concerned over the new tax. There is a risk that the financially-challenged among us (for example, students) will will be disadvantaged and that would be most unfortunate. Could there be a means test of some sort? I am also concerned that the reasoning for this seems to be to conform to some micronation standard...I presume NR needs the money as well?
>
> Which leads me to another question...what will the money be used for? I am not for one second considering that those in charge of Treasury are going to renovate their villas, pay for election bribes, etc LOL and I obviously realise budgets and financial statements will be prepared at some stage. However I would be interested to know how NR plans to play with the increased funding, and especially how and if that will effect those of us in living in areas further away from the more populous provinces who might not even be in provinces at all.
>
> I guess I am most interested in visions of the future, projects for NR, and at a most base, crude and capitalistic level, what will my dollar be worth.
>
> Valete
> a poor student
> Domna Claudia Auspicata
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
> To: novaroma@--------
> Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 8:10 AM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I hope what I am about to say does not offend anyone. I certainly
> mean no offense to anyone. This is simply a subject I am
> understandably passionate about.
>
> We now have to pay to run for magistracies? Or to vote? I'm sorry,
> but that is not right for a nation on the net. I understand the tax
> on the Equestrian class, because they're getting advertisement on the
> NR page. But for the rest of us?
>
> I think we're doing a great thing with NR. But tax NR citizens and
> it turns into a macronation. I understand that is the dream of many
> people here, but there are other ways to get money other than taxing
> people. And certainly while we're a micronation, this site is a way
> to contact other people who are as fanatical about Roman life as
> ourselves.
>
> It's basically saying to newcomers:
>
> Come into NR! There's no cost at all, unless you want to run for
> office or vote in the people who help decide NR's future!
>
> That's like asking people to pay to work! After all, while I take
> great satisfaction in helping A nation such as NR grow, I don't want
> to have to pay to be able to have that!
>
> Some people in NR are young like myself, and we are still supporting
> ourselves financially, and supporting NR financially as well could be
> a major problem!
>
> Valete,
> MArcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
>
> eGroups Sponsor
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:46:32 -0700

One other question.

How soon after paying the tax is a citizen eligible to
vote/run for office?? Immediately??

Livia Cornelia Aurelia


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Subject:	[Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal]
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 02:44:38 -0000

Livia :
we do not pay taxes just for being citizen in my macronation. We do
pay taxes for other reasons, but for being citizen... it would be
unconceivable.
One thing would be to pay 25$ as a voluntarily payment, and the
opposite thing would be to pay it as a tax. The difference is too big.
It has nothing to do with citizenship.
Salve
L.P.O.
-- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
>
>
> Actually, I'm not aware of any macronation that doesn't make
> a citizen
> pay for the the privilege of being a citizen. It's called
> taxes folks.
> I pay them yearly to the U.S. government, to the tune of
> several thousand
> dollars. I also pay a separate tax to the State of
> Colorado for several
> hundred more every year.
>
> Every working citizen in every country in the world pays
> taxes. What's
> $25 or so a year to support the growth of Nova Roma??? Heck,
> dues to the
> SCA are more than that.
>
> Livia Cornelia Aurelia
>
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
>
> > Salvete
> > I just read the post, and found the tax proposal really
disgusting.
> > As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it. If money is
> > neded, why not to look for others ways, such as advertising on
the NR
> > web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well on the
> > Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary payment, like
in
> > Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and it works!!).
I
> > wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the same way I do
not
> > have to pay just for being citizen of my macronation). If we have
to
> > pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the right and
> > obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and has nothing
to do
> > with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a macronation.
> > By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to grow in
> > population, because most people wouldn´t like to become
citizens.
> > So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
> > Valete
> > L. Pompeius Octavianus
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > > Salvete Quirites
> > >
> > > As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax proposal.
> > Several
> > > Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that the
details
> > be
> > > brought to the attention of the citizens. The original proposal
has
> > just
> > > been revised in some respects in response to senatorial
discussion.
> > Here
> > > is the current proposal:
> > >
> > > I. The Amount
> > > The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it
should
> > be
> > > between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury
> > some
> > > status,
> > > and still be affordable by most people.
> > > If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province
basis
> > that
> > > would
> > > be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works
> > best.
> > > This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's
financial
> > > situation
> > > at the start of each fiscal year.
> > > II Requirements:
> > > In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens
will
> > be
> > > taxed
> > > in the following manners.
> > > A. The poll Tax:
> > > The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The
Classes
> > > Primus
> > > and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by
Gens
> > or
> > > Class,
> > > they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes
> > Primus are
> > > those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics
including
> > > voting,
> > > and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must
have
> > their
> > > taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good
> > standing is
> > > called a member of the Classes Primus.
> > > Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and
> > attend
> > > Nova
> > > Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical
> > knowledge,
> > > are
> > > called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full
citizens of
> > Rome,
> > > they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the
> > same as
> > > the
> > > Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies.
They
> > > cannot
> > > vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom,
express
> > their
> > > opinion in "public."
> > > Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by
> > paying
> > > only
> > > their current owed taxes.
> > > There will never be any back taxes that must be made up.
Likewise
> > the
> > > Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their
> > current
> > > taxes.
> > > They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
> > > B. The Sales Tax.
> > > Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are required
to
> > give a
> > > percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury. This
> > percentage
> > > will
> > > be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman fiscal
year.
> > > C. Emergency tax
> > > The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial
Crisis,
> > may
> > > call on
> > > Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional
> > monies to
> > > the
> > > Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is
entirely
> > > voluntary,
> > > and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of
status.
> > There
> > > may
> > > be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> > > D. Donations
> > > Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged.
However
> > such
> > > donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to
> > paid.
> > >
> > > II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman
Saturnalia
> > > (December)
> > > will be the end of collection period for the bulk of taxes.
> > Citizens may
> > > began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis (August). If
> > their
> > > tax is
> > > not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus)
from
> > that
> > > point
> > > their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be noted.
> > Citizens
> > > that do
> > > not remit their tax at the beginning of the period (Sexilis
> > through
> > > Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the Treasury
of
> > Rome.
> > > Note that this means that they still must pay current tax when
the
> > time
> > > for
> > > them falls due.
> > >
> > > III. Collection
> > > There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them
> > directly
> > > to
> > > the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor
during
> > the tax
> > > gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes.
> > > The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces
will
> > have
> > > to
> > > convert the money into a money order. American Express seems
to be
> > the
> > > cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor
> > should be
> > > the
> > > collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can
> > convert
> > > these
> > > into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
> > > Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the
> > money
> > > order
> > > from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain
10%
> > of the
> > > gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will
> > involve
> > > some
> > > work.)
> > > Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to
the
> > > Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will
have
> > to
> > > send
> > > it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during
the
> > months
> > > Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take
the
> > Money
> > > Order
> > > cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after
> > the
> > > period
> > > the additional amount must be
> > > paid. (Consider it a penalty)
> > >
> > > IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> > > A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales)
> > for the
> > > period of one year. They are considered members of Classes
Primus
> > until
> > > the
> > > year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
> > > B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> > > There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay
the
> > > decreed
> > > tax.
> > > Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax
> > > forgiveness.
> > > The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at
> > all. It
> > > is
> > > hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would
set
> > a bad
> > > precedent.
> > > While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is
always
> > the
> > > chance
> > > that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money
> > forward,
> > > keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in
> > that
> > > province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome
would
> > have
> > > to
> > > deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be
> > extended
> > > by
> > > the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the
> > time.
> > > (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
> > >
> > > V. Implementing:
> > > This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we
are
> > to
> > > move
> > > on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
> > > I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius Cornelius
> > Sulla,
> > > and
> > > we both offer the Province of California as a pilot program this
> > year.
> > > This
> > > means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but with no
> > penalties
> > > to
> > > the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can report
> > back to
> > > the
> > > Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure finalized
> > enough
> > > to
> > > start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at least one
Non
> > US
> > > Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the process this
> > > December, so
> > > we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
> > >
> > >
> > > Valete,
> > >
> > > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > > Tribunus Plebis
> > >
> > >
> > > cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti ballistas
> > habebunt.
> > >
> > > (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have ballistas.)


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Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal]
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:51:33 -0700

Well, it is a voluntary payment. You have the choice not to pay, you just
can't vote or run for office. Nothing else is denied to you. Nobody is
forcing you to pay.

Livia



Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:

> Livia :
> we do not pay taxes just for being citizen in my macronation. We do
> pay taxes for other reasons, but for being citizen... it would be
> unconceivable.
> One thing would be to pay 25$ as a voluntarily payment, and the
> opposite thing would be to pay it as a tax. The difference is too big.
> It has nothing to do with citizenship.
> Salve
> L.P.O.
> -- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Actually, I'm not aware of any macronation that doesn't make
> > a citizen
> > pay for the the privilege of being a citizen. It's called
> > taxes folks.
> > I pay them yearly to the U.S. government, to the tune of
> > several thousand
> > dollars. I also pay a separate tax to the State of
> > Colorado for several
> > hundred more every year.
> >
> > Every working citizen in every country in the world pays
> > taxes. What's
> > $25 or so a year to support the growth of Nova Roma??? Heck,
> > dues to the
> > SCA are more than that.
> >
> > Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> >
> > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> >
> > > Salvete
> > > I just read the post, and found the tax proposal really
> disgusting.
> > > As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it. If money is
> > > neded, why not to look for others ways, such as advertising on
> the NR
> > > web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well on the
> > > Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary payment, like
> in
> > > Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and it works!!).
> I
> > > wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the same way I do
> not
> > > have to pay just for being citizen of my macronation). If we have
> to
> > > pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the right and
> > > obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and has nothing
> to do
> > > with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a macronation.
> > > By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to grow in
> > > population, because most people wouldn´t like to become
> citizens.
> > > So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
> > > Valete
> > > L. Pompeius Octavianus
> > >
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > > > Salvete Quirites
> > > >
> > > > As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax proposal.
> > > Several
> > > > Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that the
> details
> > > be
> > > > brought to the attention of the citizens. The original proposal
> has
> > > just
> > > > been revised in some respects in response to senatorial
> discussion.
> > > Here
> > > > is the current proposal:
> > > >
> > > > I. The Amount
> > > > The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it
> should
> > > be
> > > > between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the Treasury
> > > some
> > > > status,
> > > > and still be affordable by most people.
> > > > If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province
> basis
> > > that
> > > > would
> > > > be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing works
> > > best.
> > > > This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's
> financial
> > > > situation
> > > > at the start of each fiscal year.
> > > > II Requirements:
> > > > In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the citizens
> will
> > > be
> > > > taxed
> > > > in the following manners.
> > > > A. The poll Tax:
> > > > The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The
> Classes
> > > > Primus
> > > > and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined by
> Gens
> > > or
> > > > Class,
> > > > they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome. Classes
> > > Primus are
> > > > those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics
> including
> > > > voting,
> > > > and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they must
> have
> > > their
> > > > taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good
> > > standing is
> > > > called a member of the Classes Primus.
> > > > Citizens who simply want to be members of the various clubs, and
> > > attend
> > > > Nova
> > > > Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical
> > > knowledge,
> > > > are
> > > > called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full
> citizens of
> > > Rome,
> > > > they receive protection under Roman law and they are treated the
> > > same as
> > > > the
> > > > Classes Primus. However they may not stand for magistracies.
> They
> > > > cannot
> > > > vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom,
> express
> > > their
> > > > opinion in "public."
> > > > Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good standing by
> > > paying
> > > > only
> > > > their current owed taxes.
> > > > There will never be any back taxes that must be made up.
> Likewise
> > > the
> > > > Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying their
> > > current
> > > > taxes.
> > > > They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
> > > > B. The Sales Tax.
> > > > Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are required
> to
> > > give a
> > > > percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury. This
> > > percentage
> > > > will
> > > > be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman fiscal
> year.
> > > > C. Emergency tax
> > > > The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial
> Crisis,
> > > may
> > > > call on
> > > > Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute additional
> > > monies to
> > > > the
> > > > Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is
> entirely
> > > > voluntary,
> > > > and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of
> status.
> > > There
> > > > may
> > > > be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> > > > D. Donations
> > > > Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged.
> However
> > > such
> > > > donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still have to
> > > paid.
> > > >
> > > > II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman
> Saturnalia
> > > > (December)
> > > > will be the end of collection period for the bulk of taxes.
> > > Citizens may
> > > > began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis (August). If
> > > their
> > > > tax is
> > > > not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus)
> from
> > > that
> > > > point
> > > > their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be noted.
> > > Citizens
> > > > that do
> > > > not remit their tax at the beginning of the period (Sexilis
> > > through
> > > > Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the Treasury
> of
> > > Rome.
> > > > Note that this means that they still must pay current tax when
> the
> > > time
> > > > for
> > > > them falls due.
> > > >
> > > > III. Collection
> > > > There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send them
> > > directly
> > > > to
> > > > the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor
> during
> > > the tax
> > > > gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes.
> > > > The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US provinces
> will
> > > have
> > > > to
> > > > convert the money into a money order. American Express seems
> to be
> > > the
> > > > cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial Praetor
> > > should be
> > > > the
> > > > collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer can
> > > convert
> > > > these
> > > > into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
> > > > Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge for the
> > > money
> > > > order
> > > > from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to retain
> 10%
> > > of the
> > > > gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this will
> > > involve
> > > > some
> > > > work.)
> > > > Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their tax to
> the
> > > > Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to) will
> have
> > > to
> > > > send
> > > > it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent during
> the
> > > months
> > > > Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to take
> the
> > > Money
> > > > Order
> > > > cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If after
> > > the
> > > > period
> > > > the additional amount must be
> > > > paid. (Consider it a penalty)
> > > >
> > > > IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> > > > A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except sales)
> > > for the
> > > > period of one year. They are considered members of Classes
> Primus
> > > until
> > > > the
> > > > year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
> > > > B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> > > > There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to pay
> the
> > > > decreed
> > > > tax.
> > > > Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask for tax
> > > > forgiveness.
> > > > The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount at
> > > all. It
> > > > is
> > > > hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it would
> set
> > > a bad
> > > > precedent.
> > > > While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is
> always
> > > the
> > > > chance
> > > > that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the money
> > > forward,
> > > > keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those citizens in
> > > that
> > > > province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome
> would
> > > have
> > > > to
> > > > deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may also be
> > > extended
> > > > by
> > > > the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane at the
> > > time.
> > > > (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
> > > >
> > > > V. Implementing:
> > > > This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken if we
> are
> > > to
> > > > move
> > > > on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
> > > > I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius Cornelius
> > > Sulla,
> > > > and
> > > > we both offer the Province of California as a pilot program this
> > > year.
> > > > This
> > > > means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but with no
> > > penalties
> > > > to
> > > > the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can report
> > > back to
> > > > the
> > > > Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure finalized
> > > enough
> > > > to
> > > > start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at least one
> Non
> > > US
> > > > Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the process this
> > > > December, so
> > > > we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Valete,
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > > > Tribunus Plebis
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti ballistas
> > > habebunt.
> > > >
> > > > (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have ballistas.)
>


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Subject:	[Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal]
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 02:59:18 -0000

Livia:
No. It´s not. Voting is a civil right and a duty and has nothing
to
do with taxes. In many countries, voting is compulsory, no matter if
you pay or not pay. If you do not vote, you go to prison.
If I can´t vote for not paying, that is the prove that it is not
voluntary. And affects my rights and duties as a citizen. Not being
able to vote would be like not being a citizen.

L.P.O.

--- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> Well, it is a voluntary payment. You have the choice not to pay,
you just
> can't vote or run for office. Nothing else is denied to you.
Nobody is
> forcing you to pay.
>
> Livia
>
>
>
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
>
> > Livia :
> > we do not pay taxes just for being citizen in my macronation. We
do
> > pay taxes for other reasons, but for being citizen... it would be
> > unconceivable.
> > One thing would be to pay 25$ as a voluntarily payment, and the
> > opposite thing would be to pay it as a tax. The difference is too
big.
> > It has nothing to do with citizenship.
> > Salve
> > L.P.O.
> > -- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Actually, I'm not aware of any macronation that doesn't make
> > > a citizen
> > > pay for the the privilege of being a citizen. It's called
> > > taxes folks.
> > > I pay them yearly to the U.S. government, to the tune of
> > > several thousand
> > > dollars. I also pay a separate tax to the State of
> > > Colorado for several
> > > hundred more every year.
> > >
> > > Every working citizen in every country in the world pays
> > > taxes. What's
> > > $25 or so a year to support the growth of Nova Roma??? Heck,
> > > dues to the
> > > SCA are more than that.
> > >
> > > Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > >
> > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > >
> > > > Salvete
> > > > I just read the post, and found the tax proposal really
> > disgusting.
> > > > As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it. If money
is
> > > > neded, why not to look for others ways, such as advertising on
> > the NR
> > > > web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well on the
> > > > Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary payment,
like
> > in
> > > > Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and it
works!!).
> > I
> > > > wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the same way
I do
> > not
> > > > have to pay just for being citizen of my macronation). If we
have
> > to
> > > > pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the right and
> > > > obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and has
nothing
> > to do
> > > > with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a
macronation.
> > > > By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to grow in
> > > > population, because most people wouldn´t like to become
> > citizens.
> > > > So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
> > > > Valete
> > > > L. Pompeius Octavianus
> > > >
> > > > --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > > > > Salvete Quirites
> > > > >
> > > > > As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax
proposal.
> > > > Several
> > > > > Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that the
> > details
> > > > be
> > > > > brought to the attention of the citizens. The original
proposal
> > has
> > > > just
> > > > > been revised in some respects in response to senatorial
> > discussion.
> > > > Here
> > > > > is the current proposal:
> > > > >
> > > > > I. The Amount
> > > > > The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it
> > should
> > > > be
> > > > > between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the
Treasury
> > > > some
> > > > > status,
> > > > > and still be affordable by most people.
> > > > > If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province
> > basis
> > > > that
> > > > > would
> > > > > be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing
works
> > > > best.
> > > > > This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's
> > financial
> > > > > situation
> > > > > at the start of each fiscal year.
> > > > > II Requirements:
> > > > > In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the
citizens
> > will
> > > > be
> > > > > taxed
> > > > > in the following manners.
> > > > > A. The poll Tax:
> > > > > The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The
> > Classes
> > > > > Primus
> > > > > and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined
by
> > Gens
> > > > or
> > > > > Class,
> > > > > they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome.
Classes
> > > > Primus are
> > > > > those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics
> > including
> > > > > voting,
> > > > > and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they
must
> > have
> > > > their
> > > > > taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good
> > > > standing is
> > > > > called a member of the Classes Primus.
> > > > > Citizens who simply want to be members of the various
clubs, and
> > > > attend
> > > > > Nova
> > > > > Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical
> > > > knowledge,
> > > > > are
> > > > > called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full
> > citizens of
> > > > Rome,
> > > > > they receive protection under Roman law and they are
treated the
> > > > same as
> > > > > the
> > > > > Classes Primus. However they may not stand for
magistracies.
> > They
> > > > > cannot
> > > > > vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom,
> > express
> > > > their
> > > > > opinion in "public."
> > > > > Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good
standing by
> > > > paying
> > > > > only
> > > > > their current owed taxes.
> > > > > There will never be any back taxes that must be made up.
> > Likewise
> > > > the
> > > > > Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying
their
> > > > current
> > > > > taxes.
> > > > > They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
> > > > > B. The Sales Tax.
> > > > > Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are
required
> > to
> > > > give a
> > > > > percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury.
This
> > > > percentage
> > > > > will
> > > > > be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman
fiscal
> > year.
> > > > > C. Emergency tax
> > > > > The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial
> > Crisis,
> > > > may
> > > > > call on
> > > > > Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute
additional
> > > > monies to
> > > > > the
> > > > > Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is
> > entirely
> > > > > voluntary,
> > > > > and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of
> > status.
> > > > There
> > > > > may
> > > > > be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> > > > > D. Donations
> > > > > Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged.
> > However
> > > > such
> > > > > donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still
have to
> > > > paid.
> > > > >
> > > > > II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman
> > Saturnalia
> > > > > (December)
> > > > > will be the end of collection period for the bulk of taxes.
> > > > Citizens may
> > > > > began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis
(August). If
> > > > their
> > > > > tax is
> > > > > not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus)
> > from
> > > > that
> > > > > point
> > > > > their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be noted.
> > > > Citizens
> > > > > that do
> > > > > not remit their tax at the beginning of the period (Sexilis
> > > > through
> > > > > Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the
Treasury
> > of
> > > > Rome.
> > > > > Note that this means that they still must pay current tax
when
> > the
> > > > time
> > > > > for
> > > > > them falls due.
> > > > >
> > > > > III. Collection
> > > > > There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send
them
> > > > directly
> > > > > to
> > > > > the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor
> > during
> > > > the tax
> > > > > gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes.
> > > > > The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US
provinces
> > will
> > > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > convert the money into a money order. American Express
seems
> > to be
> > > > the
> > > > > cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial
Praetor
> > > > should be
> > > > > the
> > > > > collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer
can
> > > > convert
> > > > > these
> > > > > into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
> > > > > Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge
for the
> > > > money
> > > > > order
> > > > > from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to
retain
> > 10%
> > > > of the
> > > > > gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this
will
> > > > involve
> > > > > some
> > > > > work.)
> > > > > Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their
tax to
> > the
> > > > > Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to)
will
> > have
> > > > to
> > > > > send
> > > > > it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent
during
> > the
> > > > months
> > > > > Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to
take
> > the
> > > > Money
> > > > > Order
> > > > > cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If
after
> > > > the
> > > > > period
> > > > > the additional amount must be
> > > > > paid. (Consider it a penalty)
> > > > >
> > > > > IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> > > > > A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except
sales)
> > > > for the
> > > > > period of one year. They are considered members of Classes
> > Primus
> > > > until
> > > > > the
> > > > > year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
> > > > > B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> > > > > There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to
pay
> > the
> > > > > decreed
> > > > > tax.
> > > > > Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask
for tax
> > > > > forgiveness.
> > > > > The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount
at
> > > > all. It
> > > > > is
> > > > > hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it
would
> > set
> > > > a bad
> > > > > precedent.
> > > > > While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is
> > always
> > > > the
> > > > > chance
> > > > > that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the
money
> > > > forward,
> > > > > keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those
citizens in
> > > > that
> > > > > province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome
> > would
> > > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may
also be
> > > > extended
> > > > > by
> > > > > the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane
at the
> > > > time.
> > > > > (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
> > > > >
> > > > > V. Implementing:
> > > > > This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken
if we
> > are
> > > > to
> > > > > move
> > > > > on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
> > > > > I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius
Cornelius
> > > > Sulla,
> > > > > and
> > > > > we both offer the Province of California as a pilot program
this
> > > > year.
> > > > > This
> > > > > means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but
with no
> > > > penalties
> > > > > to
> > > > > the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can
report
> > > > back to
> > > > > the
> > > > > Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure
finalized
> > > > enough
> > > > > to
> > > > > start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at least
one
> > Non
> > > > US
> > > > > Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the process
this
> > > > > December, so
> > > > > we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Valete,
> > > > >
> > > > > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > > > > Tribunus Plebis
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti
ballistas
> > > > habebunt.
> > > > >
> > > > > (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have
ballistas.)
> >


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Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal]
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 20:16:02 -0700

I'm sorry, I just can't think of anywhere where adult citizens are not
expected to pay taxes as part of the obligation of their citizenship. If it
weren't an obligation of citizenship, any country could ask for a tax.
Perhaps the workable alternative for you is to make everybody pay, keep all
rights equal, and if they don't pay, make them leave?? It's not like Nova
Roma has a lot of perks to dangle in front of people's noses. As as we grow
in size, it's going to be harder and harder for the small few to absorb all
the costs they do now.

Here's the deal: we need a way to get some monies in the door. A small few
have put sums out of pocket so we all can have Nova Roma. There has to be a
way to spread that cost around more evenly. A tax is the means to do that.

I'm all for a way to make the tax easier on people who can't afford the
basic tax.

Livia

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:

> Livia:
> No. It´s not. Voting is a civil right and a duty and has nothing
> to
> do with taxes. In many countries, voting is compulsory, no matter if
> you pay or not pay. If you do not vote, you go to prison.
> If I can´t vote for not paying, that is the prove that it is not
> voluntary. And affects my rights and duties as a citizen. Not being
> able to vote would be like not being a citizen.
>
> L.P.O.
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > Well, it is a voluntary payment. You have the choice not to pay,
> you just
> > can't vote or run for office. Nothing else is denied to you.
> Nobody is
> > forcing you to pay.
> >
> > Livia
> >
> >
> >
> > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> >
> > > Livia :
> > > we do not pay taxes just for being citizen in my macronation. We
> do
> > > pay taxes for other reasons, but for being citizen... it would be
> > > unconceivable.
> > > One thing would be to pay 25$ as a voluntarily payment, and the
> > > opposite thing would be to pay it as a tax. The difference is too
> big.
> > > It has nothing to do with citizenship.
> > > Salve
> > > L.P.O.
> > > -- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Actually, I'm not aware of any macronation that doesn't make
> > > > a citizen
> > > > pay for the the privilege of being a citizen. It's called
> > > > taxes folks.
> > > > I pay them yearly to the U.S. government, to the tune of
> > > > several thousand
> > > > dollars. I also pay a separate tax to the State of
> > > > Colorado for several
> > > > hundred more every year.
> > > >
> > > > Every working citizen in every country in the world pays
> > > > taxes. What's
> > > > $25 or so a year to support the growth of Nova Roma??? Heck,
> > > > dues to the
> > > > SCA are more than that.
> > > >
> > > > Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Salvete
> > > > > I just read the post, and found the tax proposal really
> > > disgusting.
> > > > > As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it. If money
> is
> > > > > neded, why not to look for others ways, such as advertising on
> > > the NR
> > > > > web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well on the
> > > > > Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary payment,
> like
> > > in
> > > > > Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and it
> works!!).
> > > I
> > > > > wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the same way
> I do
> > > not
> > > > > have to pay just for being citizen of my macronation). If we
> have
> > > to
> > > > > pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the right and
> > > > > obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and has
> nothing
> > > to do
> > > > > with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a
> macronation.
> > > > > By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to grow in
> > > > > population, because most people wouldn´t like to become
> > > citizens.
> > > > > So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
> > > > > Valete
> > > > > L. Pompeius Octavianus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > > > > > Salvete Quirites
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax
> proposal.
> > > > > Several
> > > > > > Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that the
> > > details
> > > > > be
> > > > > > brought to the attention of the citizens. The original
> proposal
> > > has
> > > > > just
> > > > > > been revised in some respects in response to senatorial
> > > discussion.
> > > > > Here
> > > > > > is the current proposal:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I. The Amount
> > > > > > The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate. Suggest it
> > > should
> > > > > be
> > > > > > between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the
> Treasury
> > > > > some
> > > > > > status,
> > > > > > and still be affordable by most people.
> > > > > > If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by province
> > > basis
> > > > > that
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > be fine as well, though it would appear that standardizing
> works
> > > > > best.
> > > > > > This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's
> > > financial
> > > > > > situation
> > > > > > at the start of each fiscal year.
> > > > > > II Requirements:
> > > > > > In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the
> citizens
> > > will
> > > > > be
> > > > > > taxed
> > > > > > in the following manners.
> > > > > > A. The poll Tax:
> > > > > > The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts. The
> > > Classes
> > > > > > Primus
> > > > > > and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not determined
> by
> > > Gens
> > > > > or
> > > > > > Class,
> > > > > > they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome.
> Classes
> > > > > Primus are
> > > > > > those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics
> > > including
> > > > > > voting,
> > > > > > and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so, they
> must
> > > have
> > > > > their
> > > > > > taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in good
> > > > > standing is
> > > > > > called a member of the Classes Primus.
> > > > > > Citizens who simply want to be members of the various
> clubs, and
> > > > > attend
> > > > > > Nova
> > > > > > Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's historical
> > > > > knowledge,
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full
> > > citizens of
> > > > > Rome,
> > > > > > they receive protection under Roman law and they are
> treated the
> > > > > same as
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > Classes Primus. However they may not stand for
> magistracies.
> > > They
> > > > > > cannot
> > > > > > vote. They may take part in debates, attend the chatroom,
> > > express
> > > > > their
> > > > > > opinion in "public."
> > > > > > Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good
> standing by
> > > > > paying
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > their current owed taxes.
> > > > > > There will never be any back taxes that must be made up.
> > > Likewise
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying
> their
> > > > > current
> > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > They may recover good standing by paying their taxes later.
> > > > > > B. The Sales Tax.
> > > > > > Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are
> required
> > > to
> > > > > give a
> > > > > > percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury.
> This
> > > > > percentage
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman
> fiscal
> > > year.
> > > > > > C. Emergency tax
> > > > > > The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a Financial
> > > Crisis,
> > > > > may
> > > > > > call on
> > > > > > Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute
> additional
> > > > > monies to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is
> > > entirely
> > > > > > voluntary,
> > > > > > and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction of
> > > status.
> > > > > There
> > > > > > may
> > > > > > be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> > > > > > D. Donations
> > > > > > Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and encouraged.
> > > However
> > > > > such
> > > > > > donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still
> have to
> > > > > paid.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman
> > > Saturnalia
> > > > > > (December)
> > > > > > will be the end of collection period for the bulk of taxes.
> > > > > Citizens may
> > > > > > began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis
> (August). If
> > > > > their
> > > > > > tax is
> > > > > > not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis Novembribus)
> > > from
> > > > > that
> > > > > > point
> > > > > > their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be noted.
> > > > > Citizens
> > > > > > that do
> > > > > > not remit their tax at the beginning of the period (Sexilis
> > > > > through
> > > > > > Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the
> Treasury
> > > of
> > > > > Rome.
> > > > > > Note that this means that they still must pay current tax
> when
> > > the
> > > > > time
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > them falls due.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > III. Collection
> > > > > > There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes. Send
> them
> > > > > directly
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial Praetor
> > > during
> > > > > the tax
> > > > > > gathering period of the months of Sextilis to Novemberes.
> > > > > > The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US
> provinces
> > > will
> > > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > convert the money into a money order. American Express
> seems
> > > to be
> > > > > the
> > > > > > cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial
> Praetor
> > > > > should be
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this officer
> can
> > > > > convert
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman Treasury.
> > > > > > Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge
> for the
> > > > > money
> > > > > > order
> > > > > > from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to
> retain
> > > 10%
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this
> will
> > > > > involve
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > work.)
> > > > > > Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their
> tax to
> > > the
> > > > > > Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it to)
> will
> > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > > send
> > > > > > it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent
> during
> > > the
> > > > > months
> > > > > > Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to
> take
> > > the
> > > > > Money
> > > > > > Order
> > > > > > cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance. If
> after
> > > > > the
> > > > > > period
> > > > > > the additional amount must be
> > > > > > paid. (Consider it a penalty)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> > > > > > A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes (except
> sales)
> > > > > for the
> > > > > > period of one year. They are considered members of Classes
> > > Primus
> > > > > until
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > year is completed. They then fall under the tax obligation.
> > > > > > B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> > > > > > There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be able to
> pay
> > > the
> > > > > > decreed
> > > > > > tax.
> > > > > > Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask
> for tax
> > > > > > forgiveness.
> > > > > > The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no amount
> at
> > > > > all. It
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it
> would
> > > set
> > > > > a bad
> > > > > > precedent.
> > > > > > While all our Provincial Praetors are good people, there is
> > > always
> > > > > the
> > > > > > chance
> > > > > > that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the
> money
> > > > > forward,
> > > > > > keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those
> citizens in
> > > > > that
> > > > > > province would be given tax forgiveness for that year. Rome
> > > would
> > > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may
> also be
> > > > > extended
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be germane
> at the
> > > > > time.
> > > > > > (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > V. Implementing:
> > > > > > This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be taken
> if we
> > > are
> > > > > to
> > > > > > move
> > > > > > on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a GNP.
> > > > > > I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius
> Cornelius
> > > > > Sulla,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > we both offer the Province of California as a pilot program
> this
> > > > > year.
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but
> with no
> > > > > penalties
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can
> report
> > > > > back to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure
> finalized
> > > > > enough
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at least
> one
> > > Non
> > > > > US
> > > > > > Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the process
> this
> > > > > > December, so
> > > > > > we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > > > > > Tribunus Plebis
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti
> ballistas
> > > > > habebunt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have
> ballistas.)
> > >
>


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Subject:	[Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal]
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 03:43:21 -0000

Livia :
I stated earlier to find another way to find money. One that really
works is advertising. Many people and free websites made fortune on
the Internet using it. Why couldn´t Nova Roma do the same ?. I
think
it would help much more than taxes (this one could prevent
prospective citizens to Join Nova Roma, I think). Also I already
stated that a voluntary contribution like in Ancientsites really
works. Everyone benefits from it!. But if you don´t contribute,
you
do not lose any rights.
Please think of all free sites that made fortune through advertising!
I think that would be an excellent choice! The users do not have to
pay anything, and the webmasters really earn a lot of money.
Unfortunately, I do not have in mind others alternatives, which
doesn´t mean that they do not exist.
Maybe we, as citizens, should spend a bit at the Macellum. It would
help.

L.P.O.

Salve
--- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> I'm sorry, I just can't think of anywhere where adult citizens are
not
> expected to pay taxes as part of the obligation of their
citizenship. If it
> weren't an obligation of citizenship, any country could ask for a
tax.
> Perhaps the workable alternative for you is to make everybody pay,
keep all
> rights equal, and if they don't pay, make them leave?? It's not
like Nova
> Roma has a lot of perks to dangle in front of people's noses. As
as we grow
> in size, it's going to be harder and harder for the small few to
absorb all
> the costs they do now.
>
> Here's the deal: we need a way to get some monies in the door. A
small few
> have put sums out of pocket so we all can have Nova Roma. There
has to be a
> way to spread that cost around more evenly. A tax is the means to
do that.
>
> I'm all for a way to make the tax easier on people who can't afford
the
> basic tax.
>
> Livia
>
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
>
> > Livia:
> > No. It´s not. Voting is a civil right and a duty and has
nothing
> > to
> > do with taxes. In many countries, voting is compulsory, no matter
if
> > you pay or not pay. If you do not vote, you go to prison.
> > If I can´t vote for not paying, that is the prove that it is
not
> > voluntary. And affects my rights and duties as a citizen. Not
being
> > able to vote would be like not being a citizen.
> >
> > L.P.O.
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > > Well, it is a voluntary payment. You have the choice not to
pay,
> > you just
> > > can't vote or run for office. Nothing else is denied to you.
> > Nobody is
> > > forcing you to pay.
> > >
> > > Livia
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > >
> > > > Livia :
> > > > we do not pay taxes just for being citizen in my macronation.
We
> > do
> > > > pay taxes for other reasons, but for being citizen... it
would be
> > > > unconceivable.
> > > > One thing would be to pay 25$ as a voluntarily payment, and
the
> > > > opposite thing would be to pay it as a tax. The difference is
too
> > big.
> > > > It has nothing to do with citizenship.
> > > > Salve
> > > > L.P.O.
> > > > -- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, I'm not aware of any macronation that doesn't make
> > > > > a citizen
> > > > > pay for the the privilege of being a citizen. It's called
> > > > > taxes folks.
> > > > > I pay them yearly to the U.S. government, to the tune of
> > > > > several thousand
> > > > > dollars. I also pay a separate tax to the State of
> > > > > Colorado for several
> > > > > hundred more every year.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every working citizen in every country in the world pays
> > > > > taxes. What's
> > > > > $25 or so a year to support the growth of Nova Roma??? Heck,
> > > > > dues to the
> > > > > SCA are more than that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > > > >
> > > > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Salvete
> > > > > > I just read the post, and found the tax proposal really
> > > > disgusting.
> > > > > > As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it. If
money
> > is
> > > > > > neded, why not to look for others ways, such as
advertising on
> > > > the NR
> > > > > > web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well
on the
> > > > > > Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary
payment,
> > like
> > > > in
> > > > > > Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and it
> > works!!).
> > > > I
> > > > > > wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the same
way
> > I do
> > > > not
> > > > > > have to pay just for being citizen of my macronation). If
we
> > have
> > > > to
> > > > > > pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the right
and
> > > > > > obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and has
> > nothing
> > > > to do
> > > > > > with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a
> > macronation.
> > > > > > By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to
grow in
> > > > > > population, because most people wouldn´t like to become
> > > > citizens.
> > > > > > So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
> > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > L. Pompeius Octavianus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > > > > > > Salvete Quirites
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax
> > proposal.
> > > > > > Several
> > > > > > > Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that
the
> > > > details
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > brought to the attention of the citizens. The original
> > proposal
> > > > has
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > been revised in some respects in response to senatorial
> > > > discussion.
> > > > > > Here
> > > > > > > is the current proposal:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I. The Amount
> > > > > > > The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate.
Suggest it
> > > > should
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the
> > Treasury
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > status,
> > > > > > > and still be affordable by most people.
> > > > > > > If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by
province
> > > > basis
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > be fine as well, though it would appear that
standardizing
> > works
> > > > > > best.
> > > > > > > This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's
> > > > financial
> > > > > > > situation
> > > > > > > at the start of each fiscal year.
> > > > > > > II Requirements:
> > > > > > > In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the
> > citizens
> > > > will
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > taxed
> > > > > > > in the following manners.
> > > > > > > A. The poll Tax:
> > > > > > > The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts.
The
> > > > Classes
> > > > > > > Primus
> > > > > > > and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not
determined
> > by
> > > > Gens
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > Class,
> > > > > > > they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome.
> > Classes
> > > > > > Primus are
> > > > > > > those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics
> > > > including
> > > > > > > voting,
> > > > > > > and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so,
they
> > must
> > > > have
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in
good
> > > > > > standing is
> > > > > > > called a member of the Classes Primus.
> > > > > > > Citizens who simply want to be members of the various
> > clubs, and
> > > > > > attend
> > > > > > > Nova
> > > > > > > Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's
historical
> > > > > > knowledge,
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full
> > > > citizens of
> > > > > > Rome,
> > > > > > > they receive protection under Roman law and they are
> > treated the
> > > > > > same as
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > Classes Primus. However they may not stand for
> > magistracies.
> > > > They
> > > > > > > cannot
> > > > > > > vote. They may take part in debates, attend the
chatroom,
> > > > express
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > opinion in "public."
> > > > > > > Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good
> > standing by
> > > > > > paying
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > their current owed taxes.
> > > > > > > There will never be any back taxes that must be made up.
> > > > Likewise
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying
> > their
> > > > > > current
> > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > > They may recover good standing by paying their taxes
later.
> > > > > > > B. The Sales Tax.
> > > > > > > Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are
> > required
> > > > to
> > > > > > give a
> > > > > > > percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury.
> > This
> > > > > > percentage
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman
> > fiscal
> > > > year.
> > > > > > > C. Emergency tax
> > > > > > > The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a
Financial
> > > > Crisis,
> > > > > > may
> > > > > > > call on
> > > > > > > Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute
> > additional
> > > > > > monies to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is
> > > > entirely
> > > > > > > voluntary,
> > > > > > > and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction
of
> > > > status.
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> > > > > > > D. Donations
> > > > > > > Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and
encouraged.
> > > > However
> > > > > > such
> > > > > > > donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still
> > have to
> > > > > > paid.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman
> > > > Saturnalia
> > > > > > > (December)
> > > > > > > will be the end of collection period for the bulk of
taxes.
> > > > > > Citizens may
> > > > > > > began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis
> > (August). If
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > tax is
> > > > > > > not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis
Novembribus)
> > > > from
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be
noted.
> > > > > > Citizens
> > > > > > > that do
> > > > > > > not remit their tax at the beginning of the period
(Sexilis
> > > > > > through
> > > > > > > Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the
> > Treasury
> > > > of
> > > > > > Rome.
> > > > > > > Note that this means that they still must pay current
tax
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > time
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > them falls due.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > III. Collection
> > > > > > > There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes.
Send
> > them
> > > > > > directly
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial
Praetor
> > > > during
> > > > > > the tax
> > > > > > > gathering period of the months of Sextilis to
Novemberes.
> > > > > > > The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US
> > provinces
> > > > will
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > convert the money into a money order. American Express
> > seems
> > > > to be
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial
> > Praetor
> > > > > > should be
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this
officer
> > can
> > > > > > convert
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman
Treasury.
> > > > > > > Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge
> > for the
> > > > > > money
> > > > > > > order
> > > > > > > from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to
> > retain
> > > > 10%
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this
> > will
> > > > > > involve
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > work.)
> > > > > > > Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their
> > tax to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it
to)
> > will
> > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > send
> > > > > > > it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent
> > during
> > > > the
> > > > > > months
> > > > > > > Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to
> > take
> > > > the
> > > > > > Money
> > > > > > > Order
> > > > > > > cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance.
If
> > after
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > the additional amount must be
> > > > > > > paid. (Consider it a penalty)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> > > > > > > A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes
(except
> > sales)
> > > > > > for the
> > > > > > > period of one year. They are considered members of
Classes
> > > > Primus
> > > > > > until
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > year is completed. They then fall under the tax
obligation.
> > > > > > > B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> > > > > > > There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be
able to
> > pay
> > > > the
> > > > > > > decreed
> > > > > > > tax.
> > > > > > > Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask
> > for tax
> > > > > > > forgiveness.
> > > > > > > The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no
amount
> > at
> > > > > > all. It
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it
> > would
> > > > set
> > > > > > a bad
> > > > > > > precedent.
> > > > > > > While all our Provincial Praetors are good people,
there is
> > > > always
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > chance
> > > > > > > that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the
> > money
> > > > > > forward,
> > > > > > > keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those
> > citizens in
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > province would be given tax forgiveness for that year.
Rome
> > > > would
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may
> > also be
> > > > > > extended
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be
germane
> > at the
> > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > V. Implementing:
> > > > > > > This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be
taken
> > if we
> > > > are
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > move
> > > > > > > on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a
GNP.
> > > > > > > I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius
> > Cornelius
> > > > > > Sulla,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > we both offer the Province of California as a pilot
program
> > this
> > > > > > year.
> > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but
> > with no
> > > > > > penalties
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can
> > report
> > > > > > back to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure
> > finalized
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at
least
> > one
> > > > Non
> > > > > > US
> > > > > > > Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the
process
> > this
> > > > > > > December, so
> > > > > > > we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > > > > > > Tribunus Plebis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti
> > ballistas
> > > > > > habebunt.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have
> > ballistas.)
> > > >
> >


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Subject:	[novaroma] TAX!
From:	dougies@--------
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 03:45:34 -0000

Ave capitalists and plutocrats,

I am ashamed! A tax! What a low thought! People joined Nova Roma
because they found a place to do what they liked and learn, interact
and so forth, without the fear of being charged. Now, we are told that
we have to pay for this right, some of whom joined this organisation
under the express understanding that they would be charged nothing. I
cannot even begin to express my disgust without throwing in a few
casual obscenities. What ever will be next? Will we eventually be
charged for our freedom of speech, or the freedom of religion? Will we
eventually be charged for having a thought or opinion? I am seriously
sickened. And this tax, will it be in American dollars? How will you
work it? The fact is that I neither care nor do I want to know. I am
most seriously displeased.

Valete Male,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura


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Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal]
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 20:58:00 -0700

I would have to oppose internet advertising as a way to make
money.
Firstly, I've known e-commerce professionals in dot.com
businesses who have
lost their shirts relying on Internet advertising. I have
no clue how
successful AncientSites really is, or what they'd need money
for. I'm
really close to the Internet business, I've participated in
attempts to
build web portals before, and I have to tell you, there's a
lot of
non-liquid money (i.e., no real money at all) in it.

And finally, and most importantly, it doesn't seem like a
dignified approach
for a micronation to take for us to build ourselves based on
ad revenues.

Livia



Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:

> Livia :
> I stated earlier to find another way to find money. One that really
> works is advertising. Many people and free websites made fortune on
> the Internet using it. Why couldn´t Nova Roma do the same ?. I
> think
> it would help much more than taxes (this one could prevent
> prospective citizens to Join Nova Roma, I think). Also I already
> stated that a voluntary contribution like in Ancientsites really
> works. Everyone benefits from it!. But if you don´t contribute,
> you
> do not lose any rights.
> Please think of all free sites that made fortune through advertising!
> I think that would be an excellent choice! The users do not have to
> pay anything, and the webmasters really earn a lot of money.
> Unfortunately, I do not have in mind others alternatives, which
> doesn´t mean that they do not exist.
> Maybe we, as citizens, should spend a bit at the Macellum. It would
> help.
>
> L.P.O.
>
> Salve
> --- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > I'm sorry, I just can't think of anywhere where adult citizens are
> not
> > expected to pay taxes as part of the obligation of their
> citizenship. If it
> > weren't an obligation of citizenship, any country could ask for a
> tax.
> > Perhaps the workable alternative for you is to make everybody pay,
> keep all
> > rights equal, and if they don't pay, make them leave?? It's not
> like Nova
> > Roma has a lot of perks to dangle in front of people's noses. As
> as we grow
> > in size, it's going to be harder and harder for the small few to
> absorb all
> > the costs they do now.
> >
> > Here's the deal: we need a way to get some monies in the door. A
> small few
> > have put sums out of pocket so we all can have Nova Roma. There
> has to be a
> > way to spread that cost around more evenly. A tax is the means to
> do that.
> >
> > I'm all for a way to make the tax easier on people who can't afford
> the
> > basic tax.
> >
> > Livia
> >
> > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> >
> > > Livia:
> > > No. It´s not. Voting is a civil right and a duty and has
> nothing
> > > to
> > > do with taxes. In many countries, voting is compulsory, no matter
> if
> > > you pay or not pay. If you do not vote, you go to prison.
> > > If I can´t vote for not paying, that is the prove that it is
> not
> > > voluntary. And affects my rights and duties as a citizen. Not
> being
> > > able to vote would be like not being a citizen.
> > >
> > > L.P.O.
> > >
> > > --- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > > > Well, it is a voluntary payment. You have the choice not to
> pay,
> > > you just
> > > > can't vote or run for office. Nothing else is denied to you.
> > > Nobody is
> > > > forcing you to pay.
> > > >
> > > > Livia
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Livia :
> > > > > we do not pay taxes just for being citizen in my macronation.
> We
> > > do
> > > > > pay taxes for other reasons, but for being citizen... it
> would be
> > > > > unconceivable.
> > > > > One thing would be to pay 25$ as a voluntarily payment, and
> the
> > > > > opposite thing would be to pay it as a tax. The difference is
> too
> > > big.
> > > > > It has nothing to do with citizenship.
> > > > > Salve
> > > > > L.P.O.
> > > > > -- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, I'm not aware of any macronation that doesn't make
> > > > > > a citizen
> > > > > > pay for the the privilege of being a citizen. It's called
> > > > > > taxes folks.
> > > > > > I pay them yearly to the U.S. government, to the tune of
> > > > > > several thousand
> > > > > > dollars. I also pay a separate tax to the State of
> > > > > > Colorado for several
> > > > > > hundred more every year.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Every working citizen in every country in the world pays
> > > > > > taxes. What's
> > > > > > $25 or so a year to support the growth of Nova Roma??? Heck,
> > > > > > dues to the
> > > > > > SCA are more than that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Salvete
> > > > > > > I just read the post, and found the tax proposal really
> > > > > disgusting.
> > > > > > > As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it. If
> money
> > > is
> > > > > > > neded, why not to look for others ways, such as
> advertising on
> > > > > the NR
> > > > > > > web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well
> on the
> > > > > > > Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary
> payment,
> > > like
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and it
> > > works!!).
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the same
> way
> > > I do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > have to pay just for being citizen of my macronation). If
> we
> > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the right
> and
> > > > > > > obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and has
> > > nothing
> > > > > to do
> > > > > > > with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a
> > > macronation.
> > > > > > > By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to
> grow in
> > > > > > > population, because most people wouldn´t like to become
> > > > > citizens.
> > > > > > > So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
> > > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > > L. Pompeius Octavianus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > > > > > > > Salvete Quirites
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax
> > > proposal.
> > > > > > > Several
> > > > > > > > Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked that
> the
> > > > > details
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > brought to the attention of the citizens. The original
> > > proposal
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > been revised in some respects in response to senatorial
> > > > > discussion.
> > > > > > > Here
> > > > > > > > is the current proposal:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I. The Amount
> > > > > > > > The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate.
> Suggest it
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give the
> > > Treasury
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > status,
> > > > > > > > and still be affordable by most people.
> > > > > > > > If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by
> province
> > > > > basis
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be fine as well, though it would appear that
> standardizing
> > > works
> > > > > > > best.
> > > > > > > > This amount may be raised or lowered depending on Rome's
> > > > > financial
> > > > > > > > situation
> > > > > > > > at the start of each fiscal year.
> > > > > > > > II Requirements:
> > > > > > > > In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the
> > > citizens
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > taxed
> > > > > > > > in the following manners.
> > > > > > > > A. The poll Tax:
> > > > > > > > The Roman citizen body will be divided into two parts.
> The
> > > > > Classes
> > > > > > > > Primus
> > > > > > > > and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not
> determined
> > > by
> > > > > Gens
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > Class,
> > > > > > > > they are determined by monetary contribution to Rome.
> > > Classes
> > > > > > > Primus are
> > > > > > > > those who wish to be actively involved in Roman Politics
> > > > > including
> > > > > > > > voting,
> > > > > > > > and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so,
> they
> > > must
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen in
> good
> > > > > > > standing is
> > > > > > > > called a member of the Classes Primus.
> > > > > > > > Citizens who simply want to be members of the various
> > > clubs, and
> > > > > > > attend
> > > > > > > > Nova
> > > > > > > > Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's
> historical
> > > > > > > knowledge,
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are full
> > > > > citizens of
> > > > > > > Rome,
> > > > > > > > they receive protection under Roman law and they are
> > > treated the
> > > > > > > same as
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Classes Primus. However they may not stand for
> > > magistracies.
> > > > > They
> > > > > > > > cannot
> > > > > > > > vote. They may take part in debates, attend the
> chatroom,
> > > > > express
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > opinion in "public."
> > > > > > > > Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good
> > > standing by
> > > > > > > paying
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > their current owed taxes.
> > > > > > > > There will never be any back taxes that must be made up.
> > > > > Likewise
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not paying
> > > their
> > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > > > They may recover good standing by paying their taxes
> later.
> > > > > > > > B. The Sales Tax.
> > > > > > > > Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum are
> > > required
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > give a
> > > > > > > > percentage from each transaction to the Roman Treasury.
> > > This
> > > > > > > percentage
> > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the Roman
> > > fiscal
> > > > > year.
> > > > > > > > C. Emergency tax
> > > > > > > > The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a
> Financial
> > > > > Crisis,
> > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > > call on
> > > > > > > > Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute
> > > additional
> > > > > > > monies to
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Treasury in addition to their tax. This contribution is
> > > > > entirely
> > > > > > > > voluntary,
> > > > > > > > and failure to meet it will not result in any reduction
> of
> > > > > status.
> > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > > be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> > > > > > > > D. Donations
> > > > > > > > Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and
> encouraged.
> > > > > However
> > > > > > > such
> > > > > > > > donations do not forgive the basic tax which will still
> > > have to
> > > > > > > paid.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the Roman
> > > > > Saturnalia
> > > > > > > > (December)
> > > > > > > > will be the end of collection period for the bulk of
> taxes.
> > > > > > > Citizens may
> > > > > > > > began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis
> > > (August). If
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > tax is
> > > > > > > > not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis
> Novembribus)
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be
> noted.
> > > > > > > Citizens
> > > > > > > > that do
> > > > > > > > not remit their tax at the beginning of the period
> (Sexilis
> > > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to the
> > > Treasury
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > Rome.
> > > > > > > > Note that this means that they still must pay current
> tax
> > > when
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > them falls due.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > III. Collection
> > > > > > > > There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes.
> Send
> > > them
> > > > > > > directly
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial
> Praetor
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > the tax
> > > > > > > > gathering period of the months of Sextilis to
> Novemberes.
> > > > > > > > The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US
> > > provinces
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > convert the money into a money order. American Express
> > > seems
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > cheapest way to do this, and this is why the Provincial
> > > Praetor
> > > > > > > should be
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this
> officer
> > > can
> > > > > > > convert
> > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman
> Treasury.
> > > > > > > > Praetors will authorized to take the conversation charge
> > > for the
> > > > > > > money
> > > > > > > > order
> > > > > > > > from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized to
> > > retain
> > > > > 10%
> > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As this
> > > will
> > > > > > > involve
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > work.)
> > > > > > > > Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send their
> > > tax to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send it
> to)
> > > will
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > send
> > > > > > > > it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is sent
> > > during
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > months
> > > > > > > > Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be authorized to
> > > take
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > Money
> > > > > > > > Order
> > > > > > > > cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely compliance.
> If
> > > after
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > the additional amount must be
> > > > > > > > paid. (Consider it a penalty)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> > > > > > > > A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes
> (except
> > > sales)
> > > > > > > for the
> > > > > > > > period of one year. They are considered members of
> Classes
> > > > > Primus
> > > > > > > until
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > year is completed. They then fall under the tax
> obligation.
> > > > > > > > B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> > > > > > > > There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be
> able to
> > > pay
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > decreed
> > > > > > > > tax.
> > > > > > > > Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate to ask
> > > for tax
> > > > > > > > forgiveness.
> > > > > > > > The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no
> amount
> > > at
> > > > > > > all. It
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount as it
> > > would
> > > > > set
> > > > > > > a bad
> > > > > > > > precedent.
> > > > > > > > While all our Provincial Praetors are good people,
> there is
> > > > > always
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > chance
> > > > > > > > that temptation will strike and the Praetor not send the
> > > money
> > > > > > > forward,
> > > > > > > > keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those
> > > citizens in
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > province would be given tax forgiveness for that year.
> Rome
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness may
> > > also be
> > > > > > > extended
> > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be
> germane
> > > at the
> > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > V. Implementing:
> > > > > > > > This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be
> taken
> > > if we
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > move
> > > > > > > > on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a
> GNP.
> > > > > > > > I have spoken with the Proconsul of California, Lucius
> > > Cornelius
> > > > > > > Sulla,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > we both offer the Province of California as a pilot
> program
> > > this
> > > > > > > year.
> > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > means we would go about collecting taxes as normal, but
> > > with no
> > > > > > > penalties
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out we can
> > > report
> > > > > > > back to
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Senate on our success and hopefully have the procedure
> > > finalized
> > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that at
> least
> > > one
> > > > > Non
> > > > > > > US
> > > > > > > > Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the
> process
> > > this
> > > > > > > > December, so
> > > > > > > > we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > > > > > > > Tribunus Plebis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti
> > > ballistas
> > > > > > > habebunt.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have
> > > ballistas.)
> > > > >
> > >
>

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Subject:	[Fwd: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal]
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 04:29:42 -0000

I hope someday someone find a better solution without arriving at the
extreme of establishing taxes. As I said earlier, I think it would
bring bad consequences for Nova Roma, because prospective citizens
wouldn´t join, and some current citizens probably could resign
citizenship (I think). Nova Roma should stay free tax for ever.
Have a good evening. See you later.
L.P.O.

--- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> I would have to oppose internet advertising as a way to make
> money.
> Firstly, I've known e-commerce professionals in dot.com
> businesses who have
> lost their shirts relying on Internet advertising. I have
> no clue how
> successful AncientSites really is, or what they'd need money
> for. I'm
> really close to the Internet business, I've participated in
> attempts to
> build web portals before, and I have to tell you, there's a
> lot of
> non-liquid money (i.e., no real money at all) in it.
>
> And finally, and most importantly, it doesn't seem like a
> dignified approach
> for a micronation to take for us to build ourselves based on
> ad revenues.
>
> Livia
>
>
>
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
>
> > Livia :
> > I stated earlier to find another way to find money. One that
really
> > works is advertising. Many people and free websites made fortune
on
> > the Internet using it. Why couldn´t Nova Roma do the same ?. I
> > think
> > it would help much more than taxes (this one could prevent
> > prospective citizens to Join Nova Roma, I think). Also I already
> > stated that a voluntary contribution like in Ancientsites really
> > works. Everyone benefits from it!. But if you don´t contribute,
> > you
> > do not lose any rights.
> > Please think of all free sites that made fortune through
advertising!
> > I think that would be an excellent choice! The users do not have
to
> > pay anything, and the webmasters really earn a lot of money.
> > Unfortunately, I do not have in mind others alternatives, which
> > doesn´t mean that they do not exist.
> > Maybe we, as citizens, should spend a bit at the Macellum. It
would
> > help.
> >
> > L.P.O.
> >
> > Salve
> > --- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > > I'm sorry, I just can't think of anywhere where adult citizens
are
> > not
> > > expected to pay taxes as part of the obligation of their
> > citizenship. If it
> > > weren't an obligation of citizenship, any country could ask for
a
> > tax.
> > > Perhaps the workable alternative for you is to make everybody
pay,
> > keep all
> > > rights equal, and if they don't pay, make them leave?? It's not
> > like Nova
> > > Roma has a lot of perks to dangle in front of people's noses.
As
> > as we grow
> > > in size, it's going to be harder and harder for the small few to
> > absorb all
> > > the costs they do now.
> > >
> > > Here's the deal: we need a way to get some monies in the
door. A
> > small few
> > > have put sums out of pocket so we all can have Nova Roma. There
> > has to be a
> > > way to spread that cost around more evenly. A tax is the means
to
> > do that.
> > >
> > > I'm all for a way to make the tax easier on people who can't
afford
> > the
> > > basic tax.
> > >
> > > Livia
> > >
> > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > >
> > > > Livia:
> > > > No. It´s not. Voting is a civil right and a duty and has
> > nothing
> > > > to
> > > > do with taxes. In many countries, voting is compulsory, no
matter
> > if
> > > > you pay or not pay. If you do not vote, you go to prison.
> > > > If I can´t vote for not paying, that is the prove that it
is
> > not
> > > > voluntary. And affects my rights and duties as a citizen. Not
> > being
> > > > able to vote would be like not being a citizen.
> > > >
> > > > L.P.O.
> > > >
> > > > --- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > > > > Well, it is a voluntary payment. You have the choice not to
> > pay,
> > > > you just
> > > > > can't vote or run for office. Nothing else is denied to
you.
> > > > Nobody is
> > > > > forcing you to pay.
> > > > >
> > > > > Livia
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Livia :
> > > > > > we do not pay taxes just for being citizen in my
macronation.
> > We
> > > > do
> > > > > > pay taxes for other reasons, but for being citizen... it
> > would be
> > > > > > unconceivable.
> > > > > > One thing would be to pay 25$ as a voluntarily payment,
and
> > the
> > > > > > opposite thing would be to pay it as a tax. The
difference is
> > too
> > > > big.
> > > > > > It has nothing to do with citizenship.
> > > > > > Salve
> > > > > > L.P.O.
> > > > > > -- In novaroma@--------, <gmvick32@u...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, I'm not aware of any macronation that doesn't
make
> > > > > > > a citizen
> > > > > > > pay for the the privilege of being a citizen. It's
called
> > > > > > > taxes folks.
> > > > > > > I pay them yearly to the U.S. government, to the tune of
> > > > > > > several thousand
> > > > > > > dollars. I also pay a separate tax to the State of
> > > > > > > Colorado for several
> > > > > > > hundred more every year.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Every working citizen in every country in the world pays
> > > > > > > taxes. What's
> > > > > > > $25 or so a year to support the growth of Nova Roma???
Heck,
> > > > > > > dues to the
> > > > > > > SCA are more than that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lucius Pompeius Octavianus wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salvete
> > > > > > > > I just read the post, and found the tax proposal
really
> > > > > > disgusting.
> > > > > > > > As a citizen, I wish to express my opposition to it.
If
> > money
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > neded, why not to look for others ways, such as
> > advertising on
> > > > > > the NR
> > > > > > > > web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works
well
> > on the
> > > > > > > > Internet. Or consider the possibility of voluntary
> > payment,
> > > > like
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > Ancientsites(which is an interesting alternative and
it
> > > > works!!).
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > wouldn´t like to pay just for being citizen (the
same
> > way
> > > > I do
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > have to pay just for being citizen of my
macronation). If
> > we
> > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > pay, then what will we get for it ? . Besides the
right
> > and
> > > > > > > > obligation to voting is inherent to citizenship and
has
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > to do
> > > > > > > > with taxes. This is true for both a micronation and a
> > > > macronation.
> > > > > > > > By the way, I think the taxes wouldn´t allow NR to
> > grow in
> > > > > > > > population, because most people wouldn´t like to
become
> > > > > > citizens.
> > > > > > > > So I consider it a very wrong proposal.
> > > > > > > > Valete
> > > > > > > > L. Pompeius Octavianus
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Salvete Quirites
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As announced earlier, the Senate is reviewing a tax
> > > > proposal.
> > > > > > > > Several
> > > > > > > > > Senators who have spoken on the matter have asked
that
> > the
> > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > brought to the attention of the citizens. The
original
> > > > proposal
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > been revised in some respects in response to
senatorial
> > > > > > discussion.
> > > > > > > > Here
> > > > > > > > > is the current proposal:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I. The Amount
> > > > > > > > > The amount of the tax will be set by the Senate.
> > Suggest it
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > between 25-20 dollars US. These amounts will give
the
> > > > Treasury
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > status,
> > > > > > > > > and still be affordable by most people.
> > > > > > > > > If the Senate wishes to set a tax on a province by
> > province
> > > > > > basis
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > be fine as well, though it would appear that
> > standardizing
> > > > works
> > > > > > > > best.
> > > > > > > > > This amount may be raised or lowered depending on
Rome's
> > > > > > financial
> > > > > > > > > situation
> > > > > > > > > at the start of each fiscal year.
> > > > > > > > > II Requirements:
> > > > > > > > > In order to obtain a GNP for the nation of Rome, the
> > > > citizens
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > taxed
> > > > > > > > > in the following manners.
> > > > > > > > > A. The poll Tax:
> > > > > > > > > The Roman citizen body will be divided into two
parts.
> > The
> > > > > > Classes
> > > > > > > > > Primus
> > > > > > > > > and the Classes Secundus. These Classi are not
> > determined
> > > > by
> > > > > > Gens
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > Class,
> > > > > > > > > they are determined by monetary contribution to
Rome.
> > > > Classes
> > > > > > > > Primus are
> > > > > > > > > those who wish to be actively involved in Roman
Politics
> > > > > > including
> > > > > > > > > voting,
> > > > > > > > > and the holding of magistracies. In order to do so,
> > they
> > > > must
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > taxes paid so they are in good standing. A citizen
in
> > good
> > > > > > > > standing is
> > > > > > > > > called a member of the Classes Primus.
> > > > > > > > > Citizens who simply want to be members of the
various
> > > > clubs, and
> > > > > > > > attend
> > > > > > > > > Nova
> > > > > > > > > Roman functions and take advantage of Nova Roma's
> > historical
> > > > > > > > knowledge,
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > called Classes Secundus. The Classes Secundus are
full
> > > > > > citizens of
> > > > > > > > Rome,
> > > > > > > > > they receive protection under Roman law and they are
> > > > treated the
> > > > > > > > same as
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Classes Primus. However they may not stand for
> > > > magistracies.
> > > > > > They
> > > > > > > > > cannot
> > > > > > > > > vote. They may take part in debates, attend the
> > chatroom,
> > > > > > express
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > opinion in "public."
> > > > > > > > > Those of the Classes Secundus may recover their good
> > > > standing by
> > > > > > > > paying
> > > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > their current owed taxes.
> > > > > > > > > There will never be any back taxes that must be
made up.
> > > > > > Likewise
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Classes Primus may become Classes Secundus by not
paying
> > > > their
> > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > > > > They may recover good standing by paying their
taxes
> > later.
> > > > > > > > > B. The Sales Tax.
> > > > > > > > > Merchants doing business in Nova Roma's Mecelleum
are
> > > > required
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > give a
> > > > > > > > > percentage from each transaction to the Roman
Treasury.
> > > > This
> > > > > > > > percentage
> > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > be set yearly by the Censors at the start of the
Roman
> > > > fiscal
> > > > > > year.
> > > > > > > > > C. Emergency tax
> > > > > > > > > The Roman State, (The Consuls & Senate) if in a
> > Financial
> > > > > > Crisis,
> > > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > > > call on
> > > > > > > > > Senators, Patricians and Magistrates to contribute
> > > > additional
> > > > > > > > monies to
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Treasury in addition to their tax. This
contribution is
> > > > > > entirely
> > > > > > > > > voluntary,
> > > > > > > > > and failure to meet it will not result in any
reduction
> > of
> > > > > > status.
> > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > > > be a drop in stature among their peers, however.
> > > > > > > > > D. Donations
> > > > > > > > > Donations to the Roman State are welcomed and
> > encouraged.
> > > > > > However
> > > > > > > > such
> > > > > > > > > donations do not forgive the basic tax which will
still
> > > > have to
> > > > > > > > paid.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > II. Procedure. By the start of the month of the
Roman
> > > > > > Saturnalia
> > > > > > > > > (December)
> > > > > > > > > will be the end of collection period for the bulk of
> > taxes.
> > > > > > > > Citizens may
> > > > > > > > > began to pay their tax at the beginning of Sexilis
> > > > (August). If
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > tax is
> > > > > > > > > not paid by the start of November (the Kalendis
> > Novembribus)
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > their status becomes Classes Secundus and will so be
> > noted.
> > > > > > > > Citizens
> > > > > > > > > that do
> > > > > > > > > not remit their tax at the beginning of the period
> > (Sexilis
> > > > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > > Novemberes will have to send their tax directly to
the
> > > > Treasury
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > Rome.
> > > > > > > > > Note that this means that they still must pay
current
> > tax
> > > > when
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > them falls due.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > III. Collection
> > > > > > > > > There are two ways the citizens may pay their taxes.
> > Send
> > > > them
> > > > > > > > directly
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > the Roman Treasury, or send them to the Provincial
> > Praetor
> > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > the tax
> > > > > > > > > gathering period of the months of Sextilis to
> > Novemberes.
> > > > > > > > > The amount must be in US dollars. Therefore, Non US
> > > > provinces
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > convert the money into a money order. American
Express
> > > > seems
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > cheapest way to do this, and this is why the
Provincial
> > > > Praetor
> > > > > > > > should be
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > collector. Once the taxes have been gathered, this
> > officer
> > > > can
> > > > > > > > convert
> > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > into a single Money Order to be sent to the Roman
> > Treasury.
> > > > > > > > > Praetors will authorized to take the conversation
charge
> > > > for the
> > > > > > > > money
> > > > > > > > > order
> > > > > > > > > from the tax sum. Praetors will also be authorized
to
> > > > retain
> > > > > > 10%
> > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > gathered taxes to compensate for their trouble. (As
this
> > > > will
> > > > > > > > involve
> > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > work.)
> > > > > > > > > Non US provincial citizens who do not wish to send
their
> > > > tax to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Provincial Praetor (or there is no Praetor to send
it
> > to)
> > > > will
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > send
> > > > > > > > > it directly to the Roman Treasury. If the tax is
sent
> > > > during
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > months
> > > > > > > > > Sextilis to Novemberes the citizen will be
authorized to
> > > > take
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Money
> > > > > > > > > Order
> > > > > > > > > cost from the tax sum, to encourage timely
compliance.
> > If
> > > > after
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > period
> > > > > > > > > the additional amount must be
> > > > > > > > > paid. (Consider it a penalty)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > IV. Tax Forgiveness.
> > > > > > > > > A. New citizens entering Rome, are forgiven taxes
> > (except
> > > > sales)
> > > > > > > > for the
> > > > > > > > > period of one year. They are considered members of
> > Classes
> > > > > > Primus
> > > > > > > > until
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > year is completed. They then fall under the tax
> > obligation.
> > > > > > > > > B. Additional Tax forgiveness
> > > > > > > > > There are certain Eastern Provinces that may not be
> > able to
> > > > pay
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > decreed
> > > > > > > > > tax.
> > > > > > > > > Those Provinces' Praetors may petition the Senate
to ask
> > > > for tax
> > > > > > > > > forgiveness.
> > > > > > > > > The Senate then may decree a smaller amount, or no
> > amount
> > > > at
> > > > > > > > all. It
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > hoped that the Senate would never decree no amount
as it
> > > > would
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > a bad
> > > > > > > > > precedent.
> > > > > > > > > While all our Provincial Praetors are good people,
> > there is
> > > > > > always
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > chance
> > > > > > > > > that temptation will strike and the Praetor not
send the
> > > > money
> > > > > > > > forward,
> > > > > > > > > keeping it for himself. If this would happen, those
> > > > citizens in
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > province would be given tax forgiveness for that
year.
> > Rome
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > deal with the treacherous Praetor. Tax forgiveness
may
> > > > also be
> > > > > > > > extended
> > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > the Senate to provinces for reasons that would be
> > germane
> > > > at the
> > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > (Natural Disasters, Military Coups, etc.)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > V. Implementing:
> > > > > > > > > This is a large step for Rome, but one that must be
> > taken
> > > > if we
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > move
> > > > > > > > > on in our quest to become a true micro nation with a
> > GNP.
> > > > > > > > > I have spoken with the Proconsul of California,
Lucius
> > > > Cornelius
> > > > > > > > Sulla,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > we both offer the Province of California as a pilot
> > program
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > year.
> > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > means we would go about collecting taxes as normal,
but
> > > > with no
> > > > > > > > penalties
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > the citizens involved. Once we work the bugs out
we can
> > > > report
> > > > > > > > back to
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Senate on our success and hopefully have the
procedure
> > > > finalized
> > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > start it next Sextilis. I would also suggest that
at
> > least
> > > > one
> > > > > > Non
> > > > > > > > US
> > > > > > > > > Province, Britannia, or Germania also carry out the
> > process
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > > December, so
> > > > > > > > > we can better gage the logistic problems involved.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Valete,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
> > > > > > > > > Tribunus Plebis
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > cum ballistae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti
> > > > ballistas
> > > > > > > > habebunt.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (When ballistas are outlawed, only outlaws will have
> > > > ballistas.)
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:58:03 -0600 (CST)

> If money is
> neded, why not to look for others ways, such as advertising on the NR
> web site? Everybody knows that advertisement works well on the
> Internet.

Not really -- a typical rate is $2.30 per *thousand* page views. The
company that distributes the ads usually keeps about half of that.
(source http://www.burstmedia.com/release/join/faq.htm)

I personally am against compromising the dignity of the site in order
to gain a tenth of a cent payment per page. It would cheapen our site
if there were ads for online casinos, credit cards, viagra,
or (gods forbid) Microsoft products appearing above our flag or the
Capitoline wolf.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/


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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Catja " <ponton.3@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 06:38:55 -0000

At first, I objected to the tax proposal. Like many others, I am a
starving grad student, and planning a wedding to boot. If, upon
first coming across the NR website, I had seen that I would have to
put up $25 right off the bat, I wouldn't have joined.

On second thought, I realized that the proposal was not really
unfair. All citizens of macronations are required to pay taxes, or
else they lose their rights and privileges as citizens. Just ask Al
Capone or Leona Helmsley. Even if NR wasn't a "nation," a membership
fee is perfectly reasonable; someone else noted that the SCA pays
more than the sum NR is requesting. Add to that the issue that only
a few have been footing the bill for NR endeavors, including this
forum, and it puts the rest of us in the rather uncomfortable
position of freeloaders; we're enjoying the fruits of their labor,
without really supporting them in a way that could make a
difference. Strong language, I know, but I don't mean to offend
anyone; please keep reading, so you can see where I'm going with
this!

NR is, in fact, far more lenient and humane than most groups, and
certainly more than most macronations; the current proposal allows
newcomers a grace period of one year, in order to test the waters and
find out if NR is really for them, before they make a financial
commitment. No other organization (or nation) does this, as far as I
know, and it makes a lot of sense; it won't scare off newcomers, and
still generates the revenue NR needs.

I do have one caveat about the current proposal. Many have voiced
objections to tying payment of taxes to voting rights, and I tend to
agree with them. I know it's a little logically inconsistent with my
argument about macronations and such, but someone made the comment
that she "wouldn't feel like a citizen" if she didn't vote, and that
really struck me. Maybe it's just that I see voting as such a basic
right that any blatant attempt to tie it to money bothers me; it just
smacks too much of the poll tax in the Old South, though I know that
those who proposed the NR tax certainly weren't intending to
reference that! Non-payment of taxes in NR should not be a crime, and
those who have objections to taxation should not lose their voices.
Taxation is a contentious issue, and those who disagree should not
summarily be silenced or denied the right to participate in the most
basic matter of citizenship. I understand that those behind the
proposal wanted to give it some oomph, but I don't think denial of
voting rights is the best incentive to pay.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect those who wish to
run for office to be up-to-date on their taxes. It's fair to request
that those who wish to wield power within NR be willing to contribute
financially, as proof of responsibility and commitment. However, it
shouldn't be mandatory, as that could prevent someone from running on
an anti-tax platform -- which, in a free society, they would have a
perfect right to do. Perhaps, NR could require those who wish to
run, but object to taxes, to find some other way of proving a
financial commitment to NR -- maybe fundraising? NR does need money
to run, and those in public office should be the most willing to
help.

Also, maybe there should be different tax brackets: maybe $25 for
gainfully employed adults, $20 for college students, $15 for minors,
etc. Someone in genuine financial straits could also apply to pay a
lower rate, if they can't afford the entire fee. Income tax in
macronations work this way, and many groups give discounts to
students and seniors, etc.

I'd also like to add my voice to those who would have financial
records of how our taxes are being spent made public, and also that
important financial issues be open to voting by all citizens.

In short, my suggestions are:
1) Voting should not be contingent upon payment of taxes.
2) Those wishing to hold office should demonstrate a financial
commitment to NR, either through payment of taxes or fundraising
efforts equal or greater to that individual's tax bracket amount.
3) There should be different tax brackets, based on whatever criteria
the financial officers see fit (age, etc.).
4) Make records public, and let citizens vote on financial issues
that will utilize our tax dollars.

What does everyone else think?

Camilla Iulia Circe




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Daniel" <danat2000@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:54:03 +1030

'I do have one caveat about the current proposal. Many have voiced
objections to tying payment of taxes to voting rights'

I have no problems regrading taxation but the denial of the vote to one who
doesn't pay is shocking. A citizen of Nova Roma is a citizen of Nova Roma
whatever their financial contribution may be. Instead how about increasing
the century points of those cives who do pay or a reallocation of the
tribes? This means that those who do pay get more say in the Res publica,
but it doesn't deny the vote to those who can't or won't pay....As for the
amount I'll see what people come up with before I comment.

Marcus Arcadius Pius


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 07:32:14 -0000

Salve Quirites,

I think some great ideas have come up on thislist. Instead of
charging people to be citizens, why not simply ask them for a certain
amount of money, and make it clear on the Album Civium who's a
taxpayer and who isn't? Citizens who care about that can vote one
way or another if that person decides to run for election.

And incidentally, just because a governemtn doesn't tax people
doesn't mean that it's a "charade" government. There are other ways
to make money. Advertisement is one. As is fundraising at various
historical events, such as those of the SCA.

Valete,
Marcus Scribonius curio Britannicus.


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Subject:	[novaroma] Salvete.
From:	Razenna <razenna@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 00:14:15 -0800

I regret that for physical and personal reasons I shall be taking a
leave of absence of unknown duration. At the present time I can say
no more than this with any certainty.

Valete.
C. Aelius Ericius.


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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 06:53:09 EST

Salvete Citizens of Rome!
I came home this evening and found my mailbox overflowing with mail.
Our Tribune did his job well!
Actually I'm very pleased. This shows most of you read what was written.
However some of you only read 4-5 sentences before taking stylus to wax pad.
So to those I'm addressing the following remarks.
First off, let me say that Ancient Rome did have a poll tax during the
republic.
They also had land taxes, and in early republic, a class tax. However once
Rome started taking over the countryside, most taxes were forgiven. The
reason for this was Rome had a lot of wealth and slaves flowing in from
conquests. However in an emergency, the citizens could still be taxed.
During various reverses during the Punic Wars especially the second, Roman
citizens were asked to contribute a lot to their Res publica.
Now we come to our New Rome. I want you all to have a stake in it. So I
want to show you how to do that. Give Rome money. Three words, but three
important words. Citizens, we are not going to be able to conquer
neighboring countries.
No, that avenue is closed to us. And we are not going to find silver or gold
on our lands. Because our lands are virtual, and will remain that way for a
long time, maybe forever if we don't start raising money. So what is Rome's
greatest resource? It is us.
Many of the e-mails I receive begin with the following question: "What are
your plans.
What is your long range goals? Right now I'd have to say survival. We are
trying to survive. We are imitating Roman Government but we have a huge
disadvantage. We have no Etruscan infrastructure in place.
One reason the Roman Republic was able to survive its first years, was strong
leadership, a resolute citizenry and Etruscan incompetence.
I'd like to think we have the first two. No doubt C. Aelius Ericus will take
me to task for mentioning the third!
Some mentioned that you citizens were getting a free ride. I disagree. We
are grooming you to take the place of the few that founded this dream.
Because when I joined this project in Aug 2752 AUC my first question to
anybody who would listen was: "Will we endure?" Before I spent my hard
earned money and my much too little time on this pipe dream, I had to know:
"Will we endure?"
Because that is the question isn't it? If we are going to make all these
sacrifices, if we are going spend all this time, if we are going reread and
translate all these documents we have to know: "Will we endure"
I have been around many Romans and I believe we will. I lost a lot money
this year because I gave up jobs to be a Consul of Rome. Was it worth it? I
am betting it was. Because if it wasn't then I wasted a year for nothing.
But I don't think so.
I think we are getting stronger and stronger. I really believe that, as do
my colleagues And that is why it is time. It is time for Rome to use its
only resource. Us.
Consider this. How many Roman papers has NR sponsored? How many
archeological digs have we funded? How many important projects, one of the
reason NR came into existence, have we got underway. I have no problem with
the education here at New Rome. And we have learned more about Roman
political processes in three years then we did in a lifetime of study.
We have reached the point were we are going to have to start doing something.
Hence the taxes. Oh. One citizen call a taxation plan "disgusting." OK how
about if we call it dues? Feel better?
To continue. No one is going to be closed out of NR if you ignore taxes or
dues. Not at all.
Like the many times mentioned Ancient Sites, you just are going to be limited
to not taking part in the higher government process. And you won't be
allowed to vote.
"Wait!" I hear you cry. "Voting is an important part of the Roman
franchise." True.
But if you are unwilling to contribute to the health of the franchise, why
should you be able to decide on its fate? The early Republic did have a tax.
The citizens did pay it. They also served in the army and paid for that
privilege as well.
We aren't asking you to serve in the army. Nor are we asking that you pay a
tax on your land. Nor are we asking you to pay a tax on your class
(Patrician or Plebeian).
No, all we are asking is that you pay if you are going to take part in the
government here. We are asking you to show us you believe that Rome is worth
investing in.
That is all we are asking.

As for where is the money going, well we can't draw up any budget until we
have money in treasury. I can however give you a list of needs:
The Censors are spending around 350 each a year.
The Consuls and other magistrates have been buying their supplies out of
their pockets.
Nova Roma can't coin even a memorial medal since it cannot afford the
manufacturing costs.
We would like to offer scholarships to NR parents' children.
We would like to start saving so we could buy land for New Rome
and to pay for the construction costs.
We have no land for our temples.
And those are just starters.
Would you like to see real time streaming video of Roman plays, and Gladiator
fights? They can be done. All we need is money. And there is more things.
Space precludes me from mentioning them.
About the Praetors getting 10% of their province taxes. I have set it up so
the Praetors and their Legatus will handle the accumulation of the monies.
Several reasons for this. 1. Since many provinces are not using US currency,
there is going to have to be a conversion to US funds. It is easier if this
is handled in bulk and not
individually. 2. if a constant flow of money was coming into the Treasury,
not only would our Quaestors be overworked, but record keeping would be
almost impossible.
The Praetors have lists of citizens in their province, the Treasury would
only have lists of non provincial citizens. It makes more sense for the
Praetor to gather his province's tax money, then forward it and the list of
citizens who paid, to the treasury in bulk.
Now since the Praetor is going to have to set up a holding bank account to
deposit
money as it comes in, as well as keep track of those who paid, we are talking
about
a minor organizational set up here. Since we are asking so much of them,
isn't fair that we recompensate them for all their efforts? And while right
now the population base in each province is small, we plan for them all to
grow further complicating the problem.
The Praetor does not have to completely retain the ten percent. They may do
with it what they see fit. If they want to reinvest into the province, they
may.
As for tax forgiveness we wish to allow the new citizens to sample NR
government before we ask them to pay for participating in it. Is that not
fair? And for the forgiveness for the provinces, if Colorado was leveled by
a volcano, is it correct to ask for their citizens to pay taxes for that
year? That would be up to the Senate to decide.
In closing, citizens of Rome, we are calling you to help further Nova Roma's
advancement. So, how will you answer?
Valete

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
From:	"Daniel" <danat2000@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:30:53 +1030

Salve,

'you just are going to be limited
to not taking part in the higher government process. And you won't be
allowed to vote.'

Frankly I have no problems with non-taxpaying cives not being allowed in the
senate, or to run for consul etc I'd view this as a sort of modern day
version of the old income assessment that was used in the Senate to
determine membership. But to not allow the vote....I really think the
reallocation of century points in favour of taxpayers would be better.
Voting is an inegral part of citizenship, surely you can't have two levels
of citizenship, because really that is what this is amounting to isn't it.
Everything else you mention I agree with, plus a few more citizens buying
items from the Macellum would be good.

Marcus Arcadius Pius


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 03:47:08 -0800

Ave,

I understand your concern Marcus Arcadius. But, can you answer a question for
me? Can you tell me of any country that allows its citizens to vote and NOT pay
taxes? Because, I cannot think of one. The United States or other
macronational countries have taxes, whether they are sales taxes, income taxes,
value added taxes, or some other type of taxes. If you can think of one I would
appreciate it.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Daniel wrote:

> Salve,
>
> 'you just are going to be limited
> to not taking part in the higher government process. And you won't be
> allowed to vote.'
>
> Frankly I have no problems with non-taxpaying cives not being allowed in the
> senate, or to run for consul etc I'd view this as a sort of modern day
> version of the old income assessment that was used in the Senate to
> determine membership. But to not allow the vote....I really think the
> reallocation of century points in favour of taxpayers would be better.
> Voting is an inegral part of citizenship, surely you can't have two levels
> of citizenship, because really that is what this is amounting to isn't it.
> Everything else you mention I agree with, plus a few more citizens buying
> items from the Macellum would be good.
>
> Marcus Arcadius Pius
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
From:	"Daniel" <danat2000@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:58:21 +1030

Salve Lucius Cornelius,

Andorra? are they a democracy or are they still run by the Bishop in
Southern France (and what is their tax exemption...income tax or
something.....) but I know what your getting at. Wouldn't the Macellum and
all Ordo Equestor businesses have a sales tax to Nova Roma anyway? BTW I do
support a taxation plan, just not with the taking away of voting rights.

Marcus Arcadius Pius




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 04:06:58 -0800

Ave,

I believe Andorra does have some Taxes, I can check on it. :)

No the Marcellum does not supply enough of a stable GNP. That is the whole
point of taxes. To provide a stable GNP that the state can plan what to do
with funds.

I know you approve of the plan but not the revocation of the right to vote.
But the problem is that I dont see any other nation that can sustain itself
without a GNP. I just think its necessary, espeically given the long term
goals of NR.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Daniel wrote:

> Salve Lucius Cornelius,
>
> Andorra? are they a democracy or are they still run by the Bishop in
> Southern France (and what is their tax exemption...income tax or
> something.....) but I know what your getting at. Wouldn't the Macellum and
> all Ordo Equestor businesses have a sales tax to Nova Roma anyway? BTW I do
> support a taxation plan, just not with the taking away of voting rights.
>
> Marcus Arcadius Pius
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
From:	"Daniel" <danat2000@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:10:16 +1030

Salve,

Andorra, I think they do but not income.....I was just being argumentative
:-)

I know the problems associated but we really cannot use sales tax as an
example as we do have the Macellum. I guess its a problem with being a micro
as opposed to being a macronation. The only examples we can use is a poll
tax or income tax right?

I think a reallocation of century points or tribes will still have the same
effect, the people who care most for NR will get most of the say, however
those who don't pay tax will still feel some involvement in the running of
the state (however small) and can still exercise their right to vote.

Marcus Arcadius Pius


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Subject:	[novaroma] Suasio Vectigalis
From:	"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:39:08 -0000

Quiritibus salutem

I forward for your interest and possible discussion a paper which I drafted
a couple of weeks ago, before the taxation issue was raised.

Some better points have been raised subsequently by others, both here in
this Forum and in the Senate, but I still think it worth offering. And in
the light of the present proposals put forward by the Senate, I append my
further comments at the end of this draft.

> While all nations require revenue from their citizens, no known
macronation
> levies the same tax on all its citizens regardless of their wealth or
> ability to pay. In all cases, direct taxation is proportionate to the
> individual's resources. Some pay more, some less, some not at all.
>
> This principle, to me, is absolutely non-negotiable. A universal flat rate
> would not only be unjust, it would also be impracticable, as I shall
> demonstrate.
>
> It may be argued that special interest societies charge a membership fee,
> but again in almost all cases there are different fees for different
levels
> of membership, and concessions for those whose support is valued but who
> would find the full membership rate too burdensome.
>
> Even then, it should be remembered that we are not merely some historical
> interest society, but an aspirant nation - and if we are ever seriously to
> gain recognised national status we must start thinking in these
> terms.Organisations levy dues: nations levy taxes.
>
> We are the same as any territorial nation in that we can compel payment of
> taxes by threats of civic privileges (or rights), but we are different in
> that, like the Roma Antiqua of Romulus, we need to grow by attraction and
> cannot therefore afford overmuch compulsion. People can choose to leave
this
> nation of ours if their rights are compromised, and continue their
existence
> elsewhere where they are not. This only takes seconds.
>
> It is therefore better - not just morally, but practically - to engage
> social co-operation through goodwill than to attempt to do so by
compulsion.
> Enforced co-operation is not loyalty.
>
> Peregrini who first encounter NR, and deliberate on whether or not to
join,
> do so primarily on the basis of 2 questions: "What am I going to get out
of
> it?"; and "What contribution will it require of me?".
>
> In the same way, we have to look at the whole tax issue in terms of
> practical cost/benefit analysis.
>
> At present, the minimum that citizenship of NR costs is a little thought
and
> a little online time: virtually nothing. What the citizen gets in return
is
> unlimited access to an ever-growing like-minded community of enthusiasts
in
> all things Roman, many of whom are acknowledged experts in their field.
>
> How do you put a price on that? Should one even try to do so? Leaving
> ethics out of the question, would it sell as it is, and if so, for how
much?
> What will the market stand? That is what we have to ask.
>
> As things are at present, I don't think it will sell for much. There are
> very many e-lists and websites, and many people out there whom one can
> contact for nothing.
>
> If we are to 'sell' NR (because this is what it amounts to), then we must
> add value to the product. How do you do this globally - for all our
present
> and future citizens? A sponsored event which might be the hight point of
one
> citizen's year will be supremely irrelevant to another who is either too
> poor or too far away to get to it.
>
> What we are selling is the prospect of a dream realised. But who will pay
> for a territorial acquisition they may never even be able to visit?
>
> NR nonetheless has certain running costs, and these are largely
unquantified
> and borne by a few who hold office in NR. We cannot rely on that in the
long
> term. A present benefactor today may be in straitened circumstances
> tomorrow.
>
> It therefore falls to the Senate and Quaestores to quantify and project
> these running costs on an annual basis and ensure that they are met from
the
> populace in the interests of future stability and growth. Let's say that
sum
> is currently $5,000 per annum, allowing also for funding future
macronational >development.
>
> Let's say we currently have 500 citizens: of these, say half can't pay, or
> won't pay (never mind why). Of the remaining 250, who can and will pay,
> that's $20 each per annum. Of that 250, say there are 125 who could afford
> more, but only half of these (62) actually would.
>
> To avoid getting bogged down in differential standards of living and
> average per capita incomes relative to comparative currency exchange rates
> for different citizens in different countries, and to avoid complaints
about
> international money transfers which penalise non-US citizens, and to avoid
> difficulties of tax assessment and enforcement (all of which have been
> argued plentifully in the past and to no positive result at all), I
suggest:
>
> 1. A voluntary levy of at least $20 a head;
>
> 2. This levy to be collected by provinciae and forwarded to the central
> treasury annually - thus minimising currency transfer costs and reducing
the
> administrative burden by decentralising it.
>
> This way, there will be no bitter arguments as to who could or should
afford
> what, no resignations, no discouraged prospective citizens (who might
have
> much to contribute besides money), no heavy administrative overheads
(which
> also cost money), and no bad feeling arising from individual encounters
with
> bureaucracy and the coercive machinery of the state.
>
> In Roma Antiqua, it was a matter of honour for her wealthier citizens to
> provide public amenities for the people at their own expense. It was a
> matter of honour to pay your way. Let us, therefore, keep it a matter of
> honour.
>
> This idea of a minimum $20 vouluntary levy (you can of course give
> more or less) is the easiest, kindest, gentlest, fairest way, and the way
> most devoid of future difficulty, that I can think of.
>
> Let us at least try it for a year, and see if it works. If so - problem
> solved. If it doesn't work, there will be time enough to say, hand on
heart,
> that we have tried honour and goodwill and there has not been enough of
> either in NR. Then, if that does not shame us all into making good any
> budget deficit, we shall then be forced into making more difficult,
> expensive, contentious and bureaucratic methods.
>
> N. Moravius Vado
>
> Accensus Consulis Minor
> Propraetor Britanniae.

Procurator Severus Bicurratus and I have discussed the Senate draft as
presented in this Forum, and while we are honoured to volunteer that
Britannia be a 'pilot' provincia to accompany California in the
implementation of any new tax which becomes law, we would like that tax law
to clarify how much a of provincia's collected revenue may be kept by that
provincia to develop NR locally (I think 50% reasonable).

I don't want a 10% cut of the proceeds. I am not a tax-farmer.
Administration of all of a provincia's business, including taxation -
unpaid - is what a Propraetor's job is about.

If we must have compulsory taxes straight away (and the proposals are
compulsory if you are a committed citizen of NR rather than a kind of club
member), then I would also like to see the Quaestores (or the Propraetores)
make a projection of anticipated revenue (probable minimum and maximum,
based on existing membership and membership activity), allowing provincial
governments to set their own poll tax (two-tier or otherwise) within that
minimum-maximum range.

I am also concerned personally that an individual citizen (or even a whole
provincia) could be effectively disenfranchised from the political process
because a tax return had not been received. I therefore suggest that scanned
documentary evidence of despatch of the appropriate money order be regarded
as satisfactory proof of payment by the Quaestors in the Aerarium Saturnii,
rather than actual receipt of the monies. I would wish this codified into
the final tax law.

Also, what happens if a citizen doesn't pay his taxes until after the tax
window? Does s/he stay Class Secundus for entire financial year? This needs
more clarification.

But most important of all, I think we need a budget, along the lines of
Livia Cornelia's suggestion, before we can reasonably expect citizens to
open their marsupia.

Avete populares

Vado.





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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Suasio Vectigalis
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:24:05 -0600 (CST)

Salve Nicolaue Moravi,

> While all nations require revenue from their citizens, no known
> macronation levies the same tax on all its citizens regardless of
> their wealth or ability to pay. In all cases, direct taxation is
> proportionate to the individual's resources. Some pay more,
> some less, some not at all.

True. But we do not have the resources to enforce compliance, and
many citizens would protest a requirement that we divulge our incomes.
In this respect I think we should act more like a private organization
than a nation, and charge a flat fee for "dues" rather than a tax
dependent on income.

However, because we are international, I suggest that we do have a
variable rate for different nations. As was pointed out when this
issue last arose, nearly a year ago, many nations have incomes that
are considerably smaller than industrialized Western nations.

Therefore I suggest that the yearly membership dues or "tax" for a
citizen of Nova Roma be fixed at one one-thousandth of the average
working adult's income in that citizens macronation. For the rich
countries, this will probably be around $20. For undeveloped
countries, it'll be less than one dollar - not worth the bother of
collecting, so it could be waived.

This is more fair than a universal fixed amount, and does not
violate anyone's privacy by asking for proof of income.

> and concessions for those whose support is valued but who
> would find the full membership rate too burdensome.

I think we'll be able to accomodate such people under any system. I
recall a few years back someone paid for Amethystia's subscription
to the Eagle. Those valued contributors who have no incomes will
generally have at least one friend who will support them.

Vale, O.

M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:37:04 -0600 (CST)

> Frankly I have no problems with non-taxpaying cives not being allowed in the
> senate, or to run for consul etc I'd view this as a sort of modern day
> version of the old income assessment that was used in the Senate to
> determine membership. But to not allow the vote....I really think the
> reallocation of century points in favour of taxpayers would be better.

Marcus Arcadius's proposal is reasonable.

I do believe that withholding the vote from non-paying citizens is
justified (after all, most other organizations require a full paid
membership in order to vote), but there is some strong opposition
to this, and I am afraid this very necessary tax proposal might fail
otherwise.

Placing all non-paying citizens in the four urban tribes and the
22 centuries of the fifth class is a reasonable compromise - and
is more in keeping with Roman tradition than withholding the vote
alltogether.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
Microsoft delenda est!
http://www.graveyards.com/


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:51:30 EST

Salve Marcus Scribonius

Please name for us one real-world nation that is funded by ad revenues
instead of taxes.

Also please note that the proposal in question *does not* charge anything
for being a citizen or participating in Nova Roma. One is asked to invest
some money *only* if one aspires to be a part of the government, which is
something that all forms of government everywhere require.

And the amount! Please, Quirites, get a sense of proportion here! You are
being asked to contribute a miniscule amount - the price of four
six-packs of Guinness, or one large pizza. Truly few of us in the Western
provinces, at least, cannot scrape together $20 in the course of a year
for something we *claim* to love.

Quirites, the basic question here is do you really take the purposes of
Nova Roma seriously or are you just here to play at other people's
expense?

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.


On 11/4/00 1:32 AM marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
(marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------) wrote:

>Salve Quirites,
>
>I think some great ideas have come up on thislist. Instead of
>charging people to be citizens, why not simply ask them for a certain
>amount of money, and make it clear on the Album Civium who's a
>taxpayer and who isn't? Citizens who care about that can vote one
>way or another if that person decides to run for election.
>
>And incidentally, just because a governemtn doesn't tax people
>doesn't mean that it's a "charade" government. There are other ways
>to make money. Advertisement is one. As is fundraising at various
>historical events, such as those of the SCA.
>
>Valete,
>Marcus Scribonius curio Britannicus.
>


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:51:31 EST

Salve Marcus Arcadius,

A couple of comments:

On 11/4/00 2:24 AM Daniel (danat2000@--------) wrote:

[snip]
>
>I have no problems regrading taxation but the denial of the vote to one who
>doesn't pay is shocking.
If so, it's a shocker that is practiced by every nation in the world. The
eligibility to vote is one of the basic rights forfeited by criminals
everywhere, and failure to pay taxes is universally defined as a crime. I
wonder why? [rhetorical question]

> A citizen of Nova Roma is a citizen of Nova Roma
>whatever their financial contribution may be.
But a citizen of Nova Roma who will not help to support Nova Roma is, as
has been said by others, a freeloader, and should not expect to share all
of the benefits of citizenship if they refuse to share the
responsibilities of citizenship.

[snip]
>
>Marcus Arcadius Pius
>
Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	Marius Fimbria <legion6@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net

Lucius Marius Fimbria Quiritibus in foro s.p.d.:

Salvete omnes...

Regarding the idea of dues/taxation, we've been headed this direction
for a long time, and the current proposal is a lot easier to live with
than some of the others that have cropped up in the last two years.
For fine-tuning, I think I would adjust the tax down to between $15 and
$20 US, so that even a Citizen of modest means could afford both the
tax and a subscription to the Eagle if s/he so desired. I do not
believe the combined burden of tax and subscription should exceed $30
US unless some very worthwhile perks were thrown in--say, a
commemorative coffee-mug or tee-shirt, or a publication that could
compete with the magazines put out by the National Geographic Society
($28 per annum) or the Smithsonian Institution ($35 per annum). People
should be able to feel that they're getting something for their money
besides the pleasure of observing these debates! [*g*]

But where the current proposal and I part ways is in the linkeage of
taxation with voting-rights, and making possession of the latter
dependent upon payment of the former. The idea behind this, if I
understand it correctly, is to request taxes of everyone, but to
*demand* them only of a so-called 'political class'. And I could even
go with that if the definition of 'politically-active' were restricted
to holders of Magistracies and candidates for same. I believe it is in
our founding documents (at least it was when I came on-board) that the
Magistrates were going to be expected to contribute in greater measure
than the ordinary Cives, and that principle is still sound.

But to classify the vote as an instance of special political
activity...? This would seem to fly in the face of several other
initiatives, all designed to encourage a higher turnout; it also goes
against the very first principle of government give-and-take: You
subsidize the things you want to encourage, and you tax the things you
want to discourage. Uncle Sam subsidizes college, and taxes
cigarettes. The poll tax was outlawed long ago in the States,
precisely because it is the desire of the Powers That Be in that
country to extend the vote to as many as possible. I do not see the
need for Nova Roma to reenact the mistake before allowing Herself to
benefit from the lesson.

Voting is *the* defining right and privilege of Citizenship--any
Citizenship. Citizenship without the vote is not Citizenship as most
normal people would understand it. At least, the ancient Roman Senate
never managed to sell that concept to the Italian Allies. A couple of
times in the last couple of years I floated proposals for (a) the
creation of an office of Praetor Peregrinus and (b) the establishment
of what I called a kind of Latin-Rights status. (I'll only bore
someone with the details if they ask me to.) Neither proposal got very
far because, in the first instance, I was told that there were no
'peregrini' or members considered 'foreigners' for such a Praetor to
protect; and in the second case because we did not wish to declare
anyone a 'second-class Citizen'.

But now this tax proposal does exactly that; they're even labelled
'Classis Secundus' for clarity. Very well, suppose this goes through.
What will it leave us? --The only people with the vote will be the
politicians among us; we will have created a self-perpetuating,
self-financed political class, and the distance from there to disaster
cannot be great. We lose the votes--and thus the only meaningful
measure of perspective--of the artists, craftsmen, merchants perhaps,
teachers, farmers, storytellers, mystics... Deprived of their vote for
not paying a poll tax, they have nothing left but their opinions. Who
will vote out a Magistrate who has been unfair to the farmers? --The
farmers won't be able to, and I don't think the Magistrate will do it
for them! Somehow that is just a bit too much to ask of human nature.
Leave the pols to their own devices, and of course each one will want
to continue in office in perpetuum. We must not despise them for it;
it is only nature's way; but if it is possible to avoid leading them
unto that temptation, we owe it to the poor chaps to do it. >({|:-)

Here's another bit of thinking-material: If the bulk of the Citizenry
(all the non-taxpaying portion) does not have the vote...what's the
point of issuing a Nota against any of them? I ask this as one who in
all likelihood has a Nota staring me right down the throat as we speak,
and it hasn't blinked yet, so I suppose this question *would* come to
me in the wee hours: The point of a Nota, its only real practical
effect, is to punish the recipient by depriving him or her of the right
to vote for a specified time. This can only happen after a hearing
(from which we may infer that the suffrage has at least that degree of
protection...). But now your average-Joe Nova Roman won't be eligible
to vote in the first place; not unless and until he ponies up the money
to become a member of the 'political class'...what will a Nota mean to
him? -- O Death, where is thy sting?

But seriously...I firmly believe that voting should be the right, and
the responsibility, of every Citizen. Fine, let the political
types--which should mean anyone who wants to run for office--pay for
the privilege; but do not place a Citizen in the (paying) political
class just because s/he wants to vote, or deny that vote just because
s/he would rather back a candidate than be one.

In amicitia et fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Fimbria <legion6@--------> |>[SPQR]<|
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |\=/|
Historical Re-Creationist ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
and Citizen of Rome `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
==================================== ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
"I never gave anybody any hell; I just | | / )\ \| /
told 'em the truth and they *thought* _|_| / _/_| /`(
it was hell." --Harry S Truman /./..=' /./..'

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:06:36 GMT

>From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
>Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 08:37:04 -0600 (CST)
>
>
> > Frankly I have no problems with non-taxpaying cives not being allowed in
>the
> > senate, or to run for consul etc I'd view this as a sort of modern day
> > version of the old income assessment that was used in the Senate to
> > determine membership. But to not allow the vote....I really think the
> > reallocation of century points in favour of taxpayers would be better.
>
>Marcus Arcadius's proposal is reasonable.

Pompeia: Yes, Pontiff Pius makes a suggestion worth contemplating in my
opinion, too, Marce Octavi.***********
>
>I do believe that withholding the vote from non-paying citizens is
>justified (after all, most other organizations require a full paid
>membership in order to vote), but there is some strong opposition
>to this, and I am afraid this very necessary tax proposal might fail
>otherwise.

Pompeia:********Like you, I concede that most organizations do require a
payment of dues, , to be entitled to full "membership privileges" including
voting. However, many people, myself included, challenge the notion of
being denied voting privileges due to a meager income. One example is
college students. These civites have time and resources, but no money.
Many of them have internet access through their school only, or an
occasional visit to the Login Cafe...otherwise they wouldn't even be online.
And, since we have a limited means of enforcing this proposal to begin with,
we must ensure that it is as fair and equitable as
possible.*******************
>
>Placing all non-paying citizens in the four urban tribes and the
>22 centuries of the fifth class is a reasonable compromise - and
>is more in keeping with Roman tradition than withholding the vote
>alltogether.

Pompeia:*********I certainly like this better than withholding voting
privileges altogether***********.
>
>Vale, Octavius.
>
>--
>M. Octavius Germanicus
>Curule Aedile, Nova Roma
>Microsoft delenda est!
>http://www.graveyards.com/
>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	"Lucius Pompeius Octavianus" <octavianuslucius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:07:38 -0000

Salve Marce Arcadi Pi
I like your idea. I think it´s a good one.
Vale
L.P.O.

--- In novaroma@--------, "Daniel" <danat2000@i...> wrote:
> 'I do have one caveat about the current proposal. Many have voiced
> objections to tying payment of taxes to voting rights'
>
> I have no problems regrading taxation but the denial of the vote to
one who
> doesn't pay is shocking. A citizen of Nova Roma is a citizen of
Nova Roma
> whatever their financial contribution may be. Instead how about
increasing
> the century points of those cives who do pay or a reallocation of
the
> tribes? This means that those who do pay get more say in the Res
publica,
> but it doesn't deny the vote to those who can't or won't pay....As
for the
> amount I'll see what people come up with before I comment.
>
> Marcus Arcadius Pius


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Daniel" <danat2000@-------->
Date:	Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:35:48 +1030

Salve Lucius Sergius,

I accept everything that you have said and I see the other side of this
debates reasoning. I myself fully support a taxation system as I'd love to
see this nation go forward. However we have a voting system here in NR which
heavily favours those who show the most commitment anyway, it could be
effectively utilised to favour taxpayers. I just believe that the withdrawal
of the vote from a Nova Roman citizen (especially one who hasn't committed a
crime under NR law) is wrong regardless of what the rest of the world does.

with respect,
Valete

Marcus Arcadius


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:42:59 -0700

I kind of like the idea of reallocating tribes myself.

Here's my proposal to the Senate, in a really brief nutshell. It's not so much
mine as a synthesis of various suggestions.

1. Keep voting open to all.

2. Issue a call early in the year for the money needed per head. Come up with
two figures, one for countries with strong GNPs and one for some of our
international cives that need something much lower.

3. Let the governor of each province collect the taxes, which will be
voluntary, according to each person's means. That is to say, lets say there are
10 cives (including the praetor) for sake of argument in a province, and you've
called for $20. The praetor is shooting to raise $200. Let's say half don't
want to pay, 2 choose to pay below the call at $10, and 2 choose to pay the
$20. So the governor has raised $60 of the funds she needs. She has three
choices, turn in the $60, contributing nothing herself, turning in the $60 plus
her levy, to be $80, or choosing to throw in some additional part of the
difference between what she's collected and $200.

BUT WAIT!! There's a fourth choice. If the praetor and province know early
enough what they are suppossed to raise, perhaps they could organize a
fundraiser expressly to raise as much of the $200 as possible. Then they could
redistribute the amount of levy per head, and see if that's a sum the cives want
to pay. The beauty of this option too, is that the praetor could consider
service in kind EXPRESSLY offered to the fundraising effort as payment of tax
for certain citizens, like students, or those who otherwise could not afford
it. It would be incumbent on each cive to be honest whether they needed that
dispensation.

So.....we get to the Kalends of November. The governor has raised (YAY!) $200.
Some cives have paid the levy outright, some have helped with fundraising, and
some have done both. All of these cives are on the list for allocation amongst
the 22 rural tribes.

Only those cives who have participated in no way in the levy raising get turned
over for inclusion to the 4 urban tribes. Or, are denied the vote. Either way
of excluding is acceptable to me, although it might be better to tie it with the
tribal designation, since the other thing we want to encourage is voter
participation I'd think.

(This has an added benefit of encouraging members of a province to come together
and act with each other for a common goal.)

3. Retain the tie between levy-paying and ability to run for office.

4. Grant a 6-month "good faith" waiver to new civies so they have time to see
whether they want to contribute financially.

5. Any provinces not having a praetor, could be grouped together under one
quaestor and the quaestor could serve the function of their praetor.

6. Finally, for countries such as in Eastern Europe, perhaps there could be a
levy-in-kind provisio where they could propose to their (acting) praetor
something they could substitute for a monetary remuneration, but could still be
considered a levy. For example, Formosanus recently represented Nova Roma at a
professional conference. For an Eastern European (or anybody) with real
hardship of payment, perhaps the act of presenting Nova Roma to a non-Nova Roman
audience is one way they could evidence dedication to the cause. However, this
should be an exception to the rule that every cive participate, in some way, in
real monies raising.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:44:55 GMT

>From: LSergAust@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
>Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:51:30 EST

Salvete Tribunus et alii:
>(snip)
>. Truly few of us in the Western
>provinces, at least, cannot scrape together $20 in the course of a year
>for something we *claim* to love.

Pompeia************We don't all live in the Western world, Tribune. I am
not opposed to taxes, but again, we must not assume that all international
incomes, and therefore ability to pay $20 US is universal******
>
>Quirites, the basic question here is do you really take the purposes of
>Nova Roma seriously or are you just here to play at other people's
>expense?

Pompeia:********At this stage of the game, I choose to give people the
benefit of the doubt here**************

Po


>
>L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>
>On 11/4/00 1:32 AM marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------
>(marcusaemiliusscaurus@--------) wrote:
>
> >Salve Quirites,
> >
> >I think some great ideas have come up on thislist. Instead of
> >charging people to be citizens, why not simply ask them for a certain
> >amount of money, and make it clear on the Album Civium who's a
> >taxpayer and who isn't? Citizens who care about that can vote one
> >way or another if that person decides to run for election.
> >
> >And incidentally, just because a governemtn doesn't tax people
> >doesn't mean that it's a "charade" government. There are other ways
> >to make money. Advertisement is one. As is fundraising at various
> >historical events, such as those of the SCA.
> >
> >Valete,
> >Marcus Scribonius curio Britannicus.
> >
>
>
>certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
>(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 09:40:22 -0700

Does it matter who suggested what?? I'm not going back to trace things. Nor am
I looking to be the heroic "proposer".

Pompeia Cornelia wrote:

> >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> >To: novaroma@--------
> >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
> >Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:42:59 -0700
>
> Salve:
> >
> >I kind of like the idea of reallocating tribes myself.
> >
> >Here's my proposal to the Senate, in a really brief nutshell. It's not so
> >much
> >mine as a synthesis of various suggestions.
>
> ****Pompeia: Yes, this is correct. Well written, and you may go to the
> Senate, if it is your wish; it is your perrogative as a citizen. I strongly
> feel, however, you should name the contributors of ideas not your own, when
> you do. "a synthesis of various suggestions" is not giving adequate credit
> where credit is due.*************
>
> ********Comments below:
>
> 1. Keep voting open to all.
>
> ********I agree. And touched on by Marcus Arcadius Pius. He further
> suggested an adjustment of Century points for nonvoters, so that everyone
> could vote. ************
> >
> >2. Issue a call early in the year for the money needed per head. Come up
> >with
> >two figures, one for countries with strong GNPs and one for some of our
> >international cives that need something much lower.
> >
> >3. Let the governor of each province collect the taxes,
> *********Pompeia: suggested by Vado************
> which will be
> >voluntary, according to each person's means.
> Pompeia:************I cannot agree with this, however. After the last tax
> debate of Jan 2753 ended and the Senate rejected the proposal, there was a
> call for donations from the populus, et al., atleast I recall a post from
> Consul Audens. I am forced to assume that the treasury is not "bursting at
> the seams with donations" because we are now entertaining yet another tax
> proposal************
>
> That is to say, lets say there are
>
> >10 cives (including the praetor) for sake of argument in a province, and
> >you've
> >called for $20. The praetor is shooting to raise $200. Let's say half
> >don't
> >want to pay, 2 choose to pay below the call at $10, and 2 choose to pay the
> >$20. So the governor has raised $60 of the funds she needs. She has three
> >choices, turn in the $60, contributing nothing herself, turning in the $60
> >plus
> >her levy, to be $80, or choosing to throw in some additional part of the
> >difference between what she's collected and $200.
> >
> >BUT WAIT!! There's a fourth choice. If the praetor and province know early
> >enough what they are suppossed to raise, perhaps they could organize a
> >fundraiser expressly to raise as much of the $200 as possible. Then they
> >could
> >redistribute the amount of levy per head, and see if that's a sum the cives
> >want
> >to pay. The beauty of this option too, is that the praetor could consider
> >service in kind EXPRESSLY offered to the fundraising effort as payment of
> >tax
> >for certain citizens, like students, or those who otherwise could not
> >afford
> >it. It would be incumbent on each cive to be honest whether they needed
> >that
> >dispensation.
> >
> >So.....we get to the Kalends of November. The governor has raised (YAY!)
> >$200.
> >Some cives have paid the levy outright, some have helped with fundraising,
> >and
> >some have done both. All of these cives are on the list for allocation
> >amongst
> >the 22 rural tribes.
> >
> >Only those cives who have participated in no way in the levy raising get
> >turned
> >over for inclusion to the 4 urban tribes. Or, are denied the vote. Either
> >way
> >of excluding is acceptable to me, although it might be better to tie it
> >with the
> >tribal designation, since the other thing we want to encourage is voter
> >participation I'd think.
> >
> >(This has an added benefit of encouraging members of a province to come
> >together
> >and act with each other for a common goal.)
> >
> >3. Retain the tie between levy-paying and ability to run for office.
> >
> >4. Grant a 6-month "good faith" waiver to new civies so they have time to
> >see
> >whether they want to contribute financially.
> >
> >5. Any provinces not having a praetor, could be grouped together under one
> >quaestor and the quaestor could serve the function of their praetor.
> >
> >6. Finally, for countries such as in Eastern Europe, perhaps there could
> >be a
> >levy-in-kind provisio where they could propose to their (acting) praetor
> >something they could substitute for a monetary remuneration, but could
> >still be
> >considered a levy. For example, Formosanus recently represented Nova Roma
> >at a
> >professional conference. For an Eastern European (or anybody) with real
> >hardship of payment, perhaps the act of presenting Nova Roma to a non-Nova
> >Roman
> >audience is one way they could evidence dedication to the cause. However,
> >this
> >should be an exception to the rule that every cive participate, in some
> >way, in
> >real monies raising.
> >
> >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] TAXES
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:38:52 +0100

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quirites S.P.D.

I am not against taxes for Nova Roma in all possible situations
forever. There are legitimate arguments for it. But with the disarray
in our present legal system, the reform of which I think should have
a far higher priority, and with the extremely undesirable provisions
of the current proposal, I think that this bombshell dropped into our
midst should not be allowed to explode. I am opposed for three
reasons:

1. The first completely unacceptable aspect is the creation of a
two-tier society with * literally* "second class citizens"! We
already have an excessive power differential in our community between
a clique of veteran senators and the rest of us, and I do not think
that it should be exacerbated by depriving many citizens of the vote.
It is a divisive and invidious idea.

I am macronationally a U.S. citizen living in Poland. I pay taxes in
Poland, not to the U.S., but being a U.S. citizen I may vote for U.S.
President nonetheless. If we are citizens with income or property -
and sometimes even if we are not citizens - we may be required to pay
taxes, but voting rights are not based upon this but upon the simple
fact of citizenship. Thus it is now throughout the world and thus it
was in ancient Rome.

We already give differential voting rights to citizens in Nova Roma
in accordance with ancient Roman practice, which may be giving rise
to excessive injustices itself. Completely removing voting rights is
simply going too far. Such a class of politically helpless people
would not be a good thing in Nova Roma. Roma Antiqua did not put
taxes on a citizen's income or property except in times of crisis,
and we have extant complaints from Cicero complaining about such
impositions even in times of crisis.

I vote against the creation of second class citizens and against the
further vertical polarisation of our society. This is a time for
encouraging more broad-based participation in decision making and
more equality of rights - not this.

2. I think that we cannot think of putting the control of funds
collected in a Senate that holds its meetings in secret and which is
not removable by the whole people at the end of a given term. I do
not accuse anybody in the Senate or among the magistrates of planning
to line his pockets, as his has never happened so far (to my
knowledge) and I have no particular reason for supposing that such
tendencies exist among them. However the Senate has lost a lot of
moral authority and popular trust lately because of its treatment of
the Fimbria case, and that suggests that we simply do not have the
legal and judicial systems in place to keep magistrates and senators
under sufficient scrutiny to secure long-term honesty and to deal
with cases of financial malfeasance in office.

There is also the question of priorities, where one might fear a
difference in what the taxpayers might wish to see the money spent on
and what the Senate prefers. That Americans once cried "No taxation
without representation!" was no accident. Normally in the world today
we expect financial decisions about the expenditures of tax revenues
to be made in the lower houses of our legislatures and parliaments.
For us that means the comitia and possible finance committees of the
comitia - not the Senate. That is contrary to ancient practice, but
then the Senate was not spending taxes levied on personal citizenshop
or income, and today we would be. If we ever have taxes, we must have
meaningful popular control over them, not just docilely hand them
over to those who would be our masters.

3. Earning a Polish salary, USD 25 is a very considerable sum that I
would have to think carefully about spending. And living in a non-
province, the sending of it across a national border would consume
more than another USD 10 for one without a credit card (unless cash
were accepted, which would require the expense of registered mail to
be safe). Many people among us would have this problem or the problem
of being a student or out of work or retired in a land where pensions
are not very adequate. There simply must be a juster system of
graduated taxes that places a truly proporionate burdern on citizens
and enables payment for those in conditions like mine before we
should think about instituting taxation.

Those are my three reasons, Quirites. And lurking behind them is
another feeling which is most disquieting. I am increasingly made to
feel by some of our leaders that they conceive of Nova Roma as some
entity other than the human citizens who make it up. They see
themselves as the leaders of this entity, as the *rulers* of this
entity, and they see "productive citizens" as being those who do not
think for themselves and criticise, but those who are willing to do
as they are told by their "betters". Now they are trying to get these
"productive citizens" to produce cash for them to control, and if
they don't cough up, well, why should they have the real rights of
citizens to vote and run for office? If any of you do not share this
perception, just keep your eye on what they do and say...maybe you
will see some indications that will convince you.

In the meantime I say we should not feed this inequitable system
until we have gained more legal protections and popular control of
the community and resources that we have already got.

Valete!


Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius              
ICQ# 61698049 Firetalk: Apollonius 1588367
AIM: MAFormosanus              MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


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Subject:	Fwd: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	StarVVreck@--------
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:43:06 EST

Baa! I'm still not used to the new default for the list..


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	[novaroma] Interested in an archaeological dig?
From:	"Cornelius Scriptor" <cornelius_scriptor@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 16:43:38 -0000

Salvete,

Are you interested in the archaeology of the Roman world? Would you
like to learn practical archaeology in the historical city of
Carthage (Tunisia)? The Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières is
setting up it's 2001 campaign at the site of the "Aedes Memoriae" in
Carthage.
No prior knowledge is required from the participant. Basic
archeological formation and Roman history seminar will be given. Of
course, if you already have the knowledge and experience, we will
find a good way to use your talents ;)
In addition to the formation and field experience, educational trips
are organized each weeks on the various Roman sites of Tunisia
(Carthage, Utique, Thugga, Tuburbo Maius, etc..) and to the most
renowned museums of the country (the Musée du Bardo, for example,
wich own the most Roman mosaïcs in the world), all theses trips
commented by professor Senay, who digged in Tunisia for the past 20
years.

The package include the plane tickets (from the major airport closest
to you), food and lodging for the whole month, professor Senay's
seminar on Roman history, archeaological training, educational field
trips (transport, food and lodging), insurance, as well as museum and
sites entrance fees.
What it's does not include is: alchool, week-end trips organized by
the participants (for thoses who don't want to spend their little
free time on the beach), and personnal expenses. You can have
this "Field Class" (sorry, I'm not sure how to translate "stage")
credited at the Université du Québec à Trois-Rivivères for an extra
250$CAN (around 150$US) or possibly at your own university with some
arrangements.

Requirements:
- You have to be 18+ (for insurance reasons)
- You do NOT have to be a student.
- You do NOT need to have any particular knowledge.
- Basic knowledge of French is advised, but not required (Most people
on the team and amongst the participant have some skills in English.
You won't really have any problems to communicate. Beside, you'll
learn a little French.)

The cost is 2500$CAN (about 1500$US), all included. That money is
used for the plane ticket, the food, lodging, the trips and the rest
help finance the dig.

It should be the last year that we are digging in Carthage itself.
Thus, it's your last chance to enjoy living in the beautiful
surroundings of Sidi Bou Saïd and Carthage.

If you have any questions at all, please feel free to contact me at
cornelius_scriptor@--------

Valete

M. Cornelius Scriptor


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	StarVVreck@--------
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:50:33 EST

Salvete civis,

<< However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect those who wish to
run for office to be up-to-date on their taxes. It's fair to request
that those who wish to wield power within NR be willing to contribute
financially, as proof of responsibility and commitment. However, it
shouldn't be mandatory, as that could prevent someone from running on
an anti-tax platform -- which, in a free society, they would have a
perfect right to do. Perhaps, NR could require those who wish to
run, but object to taxes, to find some other way of proving a
financial commitment to NR -- maybe fundraising? NR does need money
to run, and those in public office should be the most willing to
help. >>

In other emails I have read it has been stated that all Macro Nations require
their citizens to pay taxes for the privilidge of being a citizen. However
in most Macro Nations those who hold political office are paid a yearly
salary, sometimes of obscene amounts of money. I don't think Nova Roma is at
a point where it could afford to pay its office holders, however we could
encourage people to participate more in Nova Roma by offering tax exemptions
to those who win political offices. In my local neighborhood (I know it
dosen't compare) the neighborhood board dosen't have to pay the annual $400
dues for our Swim & Tennis Community.

Vale,

Iulius Titinius

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 16:51:10 GMT

Actually I don't mind if you forward this to the list; I thought I do a
private note because you might feel embarrassed. This is my sincere
opinion.

Pompeia


>From: <gmvick32@-------->
>Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
>To: Pompeia Cornelia <scriba_forum@-------->
>CC: novaroma@--------
>Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
>Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 09:40:22 -0700
>
>Does it matter who suggested what?? I'm not going back to trace things.
>Nor am
>I looking to be the heroic "proposer".
>
>Pompeia Cornelia wrote:
>
> > >From: <gmvick32@-------->
> > >Reply-To: gmvick32@--------
> > >To: novaroma@--------
> > >Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Senate tax proposal
> > >Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:42:59 -0700
> >
> > Salve:
> > >
> > >I kind of like the idea of reallocating tribes myself.
> > >
> > >Here's my proposal to the Senate, in a really brief nutshell. It's not
>so
> > >much
> > >mine as a synthesis of various suggestions.
> >
> > ****Pompeia: Yes, this is correct. Well written, and you may go to the
> > Senate, if it is your wish; it is your perrogative as a citizen. I
>strongly
> > feel, however, you should name the contributors of ideas not your own,
>when
> > you do. "a synthesis of various suggestions" is not giving adequate
>credit
> > where credit is due.*************
> >
> > ********Comments below:
> >
> > 1. Keep voting open to all.
> >
> > ********I agree. And touched on by Marcus Arcadius Pius. He further
> > suggested an adjustment of Century points for nonvoters, so that
>everyone
> > could vote. ************
> > >
> > >2. Issue a call early in the year for the money needed per head. Come
>up
> > >with
> > >two figures, one for countries with strong GNPs and one for some of our
> > >international cives that need something much lower.
> > >
> > >3. Let the governor of each province collect the taxes,
> > *********Pompeia: suggested by Vado************
> > which will be
> > >voluntary, according to each person's means.
> > Pompeia:************I cannot agree with this, however. After the last
>tax
> > debate of Jan 2753 ended and the Senate rejected the proposal, there was
>a
> > call for donations from the populus, et al., atleast I recall a post
>from
> > Consul Audens. I am forced to assume that the treasury is not "bursting
>at
> > the seams with donations" because we are now entertaining yet another
>tax
> > proposal************
> >
> > That is to say, lets say there are
> >
> > >10 cives (including the praetor) for sake of argument in a province,
>and
> > >you've
> > >called for $20. The praetor is shooting to raise $200. Let's say half
> > >don't
> > >want to pay, 2 choose to pay below the call at $10, and 2 choose to pay
>the
> > >$20. So the governor has raised $60 of the funds she needs. She has
>three
> > >choices, turn in the $60, contributing nothing herself, turning in the
>$60
> > >plus
> > >her levy, to be $80, or choosing to throw in some additional part of
>the
> > >difference between what she's collected and $200.
> > >
> > >BUT WAIT!! There's a fourth choice. If the praetor and province know
>early
> > >enough what they are suppossed to raise, perhaps they could organize a
> > >fundraiser expressly to raise as much of the $200 as possible. Then
>they
> > >could
> > >redistribute the amount of levy per head, and see if that's a sum the
>cives
> > >want
> > >to pay. The beauty of this option too, is that the praetor could
>consider
> > >service in kind EXPRESSLY offered to the fundraising effort as payment
>of
> > >tax
> > >for certain citizens, like students, or those who otherwise could not
> > >afford
> > >it. It would be incumbent on each cive to be honest whether they
>needed
> > >that
> > >dispensation.
> > >
> > >So.....we get to the Kalends of November. The governor has raised
>(YAY!)
> > >$200.
> > >Some cives have paid the levy outright, some have helped with
>fundraising,
> > >and
> > >some have done both. All of these cives are on the list for allocation
> > >amongst
> > >the 22 rural tribes.
> > >
> > >Only those cives who have participated in no way in the levy raising
>get
> > >turned
> > >over for inclusion to the 4 urban tribes. Or, are denied the vote.
>Either
> > >way
> > >of excluding is acceptable to me, although it might be better to tie it
> > >with the
> > >tribal designation, since the other thing we want to encourage is voter
> > >participation I'd think.
> > >
> > >(This has an added benefit of encouraging members of a province to come
> > >together
> > >and act with each other for a common goal.)
> > >
> > >3. Retain the tie between levy-paying and ability to run for office.
> > >
> > >4. Grant a 6-month "good faith" waiver to new civies so they have time
>to
> > >see
> > >whether they want to contribute financially.
> > >
> > >5. Any provinces not having a praetor, could be grouped together under
>one
> > >quaestor and the quaestor could serve the function of their praetor.
> > >
> > >6. Finally, for countries such as in Eastern Europe, perhaps there
>could
> > >be a
> > >levy-in-kind provisio where they could propose to their (acting)
>praetor
> > >something they could substitute for a monetary remuneration, but could
> > >still be
> > >considered a levy. For example, Formosanus recently represented Nova
>Roma
> > >at a
> > >professional conference. For an Eastern European (or anybody) with
>real
> > >hardship of payment, perhaps the act of presenting Nova Roma to a
>non-Nova
> > >Roman
> > >audience is one way they could evidence dedication to the cause.
>However,
> > >this
> > >should be an exception to the rule that every cive participate, in some
> > >way, in
> > >real monies raising.
> > >
> > >Livia Cornelia Aurelia
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
>

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Marcus Darius Ursus" <marcus_darius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 09:59:24 MST

Salvete Omnes,

Let me begin by saying that has been said so many times:
'There are two sure things in life: Death and Taxes'.

I agree with the idea of a tax... To be honest I am surprised that there has
not been one thus far. It is easy for someone to take for granted the
services that Nova Roma provides when they are free. The problem is, the
money to run such services has to come from somewhere.

This is not to say that I don't sympathize with those who have to watch
their finances very closely, I myself currently have a job with long hours
and below average pay. However I would still gladly pay the tax, even though
it would actually cost $40.00 CDN at the current exchange rate.

As for those who want something out of their taxes (other than the continued
existence of Nova Roma), perhaps a yearly subscription to the Eagle for each
person who has paid taxes? The option of free advertising on the website?
Perhaps even discounts on Nova Roma merchandise? The list could go on...

I do disagree with the idea of a Poll Tax. Every cive should have the right
to help determine the direction Nova Roma takes in the future.

However, in modern society, it is usually the head of the household who pays
the majority of taxes. Thus, I propose that the only cives who must face a
mandatory taxation be the Paterfamilias and the Materfamilias. These cives
in turn could request assistance from their gens in paying the tax. I know I
may not be popular in suggesting this, but since I am currently belong to a
gens of one person, I would have to bear the full tax myself. This may also
make a new cive pause for thought before forming a new gens if they know
that they are responsible for paying a yearly tax. Even more drastic could
be the removal of a gens from the Album Gentium if they neglect their civic
duty to pay taxes. The gens would still exist, they would just be stricken
from the album.

I think I have said enough or perhaps too much for now.

Valete,

Marcus Darius Ursus
Paterfamilias of Daria
--------------------------
marcus_darius@--------
Bellerophon@--------
ICQ: 83821138

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity." -Maximus, from Gladiator

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Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: Voluntary Taxes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 17:03:40 GMT

>From: eGroups <notify@-------->
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>Subject: Unable to deliver your message
>Date: 4 Nov 2000 16:47:58 -0000
>
>
>Your message was sent to a group that does not exist. Please check
>to make sure you spelled the group name correctly.
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Subject:	[novaroma] Macellum/ad revenue proposal
From:	"pjane@-------- " <pjane@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 17:15:02 -0000

I, too, disagree with the idea of using general Web advertising to help
fund Nova Roma. If we came to depend on this stream of funding, Nova
Roma might find itself in the unenviable position of having to
encourage its Citizens to support the nation by clicking on ads. And if
we joined some organization which supplied the ads to us, we would lose
control over them and might find ourselves forced to support businesses
which we might find unsavory.

In my experience (five years of producing news Web sites), the most
effective ads, and the ones least resented by viewers, are those
directly connected with the content of the site.

So here's a suggestion: In order to drive traffic to businesses whose
products and services are in keeping with our mission, we should offer
Macellum businesses free banner ads on the Nova Roma web site. That
way, we could set guidelines (no "blinkies" or games of chance,
animations to run no more than five times, etc.) and maintain control
of the Dignitas of our site.

Design-minded Citizens could help the nation by putting together ads
for businesses that don't have them. Our Webmaster might need to
designate someone to administer the ad program, which would provide
another opportunity for a Citizen to lend his or her skills to Nova
Roma.

Whether or not we pass a tax package, such a program would help Nova
Roma by boosting our Macellum businesses and encouraging our Citizens
to support them.

What do you think?

Patricia Cassia



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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes: three points
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:47:07 +0100

Salvete Quirites,

I must raise a voice of strong objection against Marcus Arcadius' proposal.
If you augment the century points of the citizens that contribute the most
financially, what you'll get is a state run by wealthy citizens, while other
people who don't have that much money but are equally or even more motivated
will lose their equality of participation to the big fish that have the big
money.

Also, I would suggest to only have citizens pay the fee if they are above 21
and have the legal right to participate. Trying to make someone pay for his
right to vote from ages 18-21 while he can't be eligible makes no real
sense - or the age limits to be eligible for magistracies must be lowered.

A third point that comes to mind is the dollarification of this tax. Why not
independant continental centres that collect the taxes? Sending money
overseas is still a risky thing to do, and a lot of money also gets lost if
currencies are being converted to dollars, especially in European lands.
Even if we used the euro, that still wouldn't apply for the non EC-lands.
Regarding the collection of this fee there's a better way to be sought.

Valete!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
There are no bad guys. Just disturbed guys.
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
--**--
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel <danat2000@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Taxes


> Salve Lucius Sergius,
>
> I accept everything that you have said and I see the other side of this
> debates reasoning. I myself fully support a taxation system as I'd love to
> see this nation go forward. However we have a voting system here in NR
which
> heavily favours those who show the most commitment anyway, it could be
> effectively utilised to favour taxpayers. I just believe that the
withdrawal
> of the vote from a Nova Roman citizen (especially one who hasn't committed
a
> crime under NR law) is wrong regardless of what the rest of the world
does.
>
> with respect,
> Valete
>
> Marcus Arcadius
>
>
>
>
>


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes: three points
From:	"Daniel" <danat2000@-------->
Date:	Sun, 5 Nov 2000 05:11:08 +1030

Salve,

Sorry if I wasn't clear but I didn't really have the thought that the more
you paid, the more century points you get, just that eveyone who pays the
tax (whatever and however much they pay) gets a set amount whilst those who
don't well...don't.

Example: lets say that 15-20 points (non-accumulative) is awarded to each
cive who pays the tax, for instance: a citizen pays $20.00 (or whatever the
set amount for their province may be, even less possibly, even if its
$5.00!!) they get 15 points for that year, another , perhaps wealthier,
citizen pays $100.00 extra voluntarily, they still only get 15 points for
the year but the person who doesn't pay anything at all gets none. If a
non-paying persons vote is taken away , which seems to be the alternative,
then they wouldn't get much of a say about anything at all regardless of how
many century points they had accumulated in service to Nova Roma.

BTW The last thing I want to see is an oligarchy in NR.

Marcus Arcadius Pius

(who has been up all night working on his final paper and is very tired and
irritable !!)


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Subject:	[novaroma] D N 1066 Re: Taxes
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:53:53 -0500

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

I have made the suggestion to some of my fellow Senatores in the past (last
year), and also a few days ago for this Senate meeting, that Gens pay a
registration fee (in lieu of a Tax). There was the Issue of too many one
person Gens and there is even a short statement on the application that new
citizens try to join an already established Gens unless the applicant, for
one reason or other, really had to start their own Gens.

I had proposed that the Gens pay a registration fee on the order of $25 per
annum with an additional fee of $1 per gens member. (These amounts are only
for discussion and we can certainly adjust them.) Thus, for a gens Like the
Cornelii or Equitii that would be about $40 I would gladly pay that for all
my Gens. We could even have the individual Tax/Fee be $2 or $3 and I would
still pay it. These registrations could even be bi-annual, etc.

For those citizens who did not wish to maintain their own Gens but would
still want to remain a citizens they will surely find another Gens already
established or perhaps they can post on the Forum Message board that they
are looking to form a new gens of other like minded citizens. (Just an
idea, I'm sure there will be other better ones)

Also, I have proposed that those wishing to be candidates for office also
pay a small fee to register. Something along the lines of $5 - $10
(appointments by the Senate are on merit, so no fee would apply.)

just a few ideas to spur alternatives to a tax. I do want to say that I find
'net-advertisement' demeaning.

Message: 25
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 09:59:24 MST
From: "Marcus Darius Ursus" <marcus_darius@-------->
Subject: Re: Taxes

Salvete Omnes,

Let me begin by saying that has been said so many times:
'There are two sure things in life: Death and Taxes'.

I agree with the idea of a tax...

This is not to say that I don't sympathize with those who have to watch
their finances very closely, I myself currently have a job with long hours

and below average pay. However I would still gladly pay the tax, even though
it would actually cost $40.00 CDN at the current exchange rate.


Ursus:
As for those who want something out of their taxes (other than the continued
existence of Nova Roma), perhaps a yearly subscription to the Eagle for each
person who has paid taxes? The option of free advertising on the website?
Perhaps even discounts on Nova Roma merchandise? The list could go on...

Ursus:
I do disagree with the idea of a Poll Tax. Every cive should have the right
to help determine the direction Nova Roma takes in the future.

L Equitius: Those Gens failing to register would no longer be citizens
eligible to vote.

Ursus:
However, in modern society, it is usually the head of the household who pays
the majority of taxes. Thus, I propose that the only cives who must face a
mandatory taxation be the Paterfamilias and the Materfamilias. These cives
in turn could request assistance from their gens in paying the tax. I know I
may not be popular in suggesting this, but since I am currently belong to a
gens of one person, I would have to bear the full tax myself. This may also
make a new cive pause for thought before forming a new gens if they know
that they are responsible for paying a yearly tax. Even more drastic could
be the removal of a gens from the Album Gentium if they neglect their civic
duty to pay taxes. The gens would still exist, they would just be stricken
from the album.

L Equitius: ITA!

Ursus:
I think I have said enough or perhaps too much for now.

Valete, Marcus Darius Ursus
Paterfamilias of Daria

L Equitius: Actually I'm very glad that you have made the suggestion too. I
completely agree with your reasoning.

Valete, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
Paterfamilias Equitii


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:27:20 +0100

Salve Marce Dari,

I think you have raised a good point here with the gens-taxation idea.
Thusly the costs could be split, and there would be less problems on
micronational level regarding administration.

Valete,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes: three points
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:29:05 +0100

Save Marce Arcadi,

Sorry that I misinterpreted your proposal.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 11:16:29 -0800

I disagree, especially with widespread gens like mine. I have members in
South Africa, Germany, Canada and the US. To cooridnate such an extent
would be too much. This is why NR has Governors, Praetors and Proconsuls!
In ancinent Rome, they were the focal point in the collection of Taxes.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:

> Salve Marce Dari,
>
> I think you have raised a good point here with the gens-taxation idea.
> Thusly the costs could be split, and there would be less problems on
> micronational level regarding administration.
>
> Valete,
> Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
> Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
> --**--
> There are no bad guys. Just disturbed guys.
> --**--
> Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
> Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
> Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
> --**--
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes et al
From:	"Les Peterson" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:50:18 -0800

Lucius Mauricius Procopious Quiritibus SPD

Salvete,
I look forward to the opportunity to support my nation fiancially. I would like to voice my support for the suggested plans to raise taxes through provinces or gens as these options would move us closer together as civies. I also support the loss of century points rather than voting rights. Don't worry about taxes being mandatory to run for office. I know I wouldn't vote for a non tax payer! While I oppose the idea of creating revenue through advertising, I think we should explore other options in addition to taxes. Has the Senate sought charitable contributions? Didn't I just read on this list that Hewlett Packard dedicated $100 million to restore Herculaneum? How much might they or some other charitable organization give to restore the Roman way of life? To revive the Latin language? To recreate the Religio?

In the spirit of supporting this nation financially, I would also like to request information on what I might be able to do in service. I live in America Borooccidentalis (Wa. St.) and would love to serve at the local level. My computer skills are limited but my willingness to perform even mundane and tedious tasks is not. Please contact me if you can help me get involved.

Thanks to you all for creating Nova Roma and allowing me to be a part of it. I hope we all find the will to sacrifice as much as possible to see our home grow.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:49:50 +0100

Salve Censor Sulla,

> I disagree, especially with widespread gens like mine. I have members in
> South Africa, Germany, Canada and the US. To cooridnate such an extent
> would be too much. This is why NR has Governors, Praetors and Proconsuls!
> In ancinent Rome, they were the focal point in the collection of Taxes.

Yes, you have a point here...

But weren't Quaestores the head of finances? Just a sidenote.

Vale,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
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--**--
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 11:24:09 -0800

"S. Apollonius Draco" wrote:

> Salve Censor Sulla,
>
> > I disagree, especially with widespread gens like mine. I have members in
> > South Africa, Germany, Canada and the US. To cooridnate such an extent
> > would be too much. This is why NR has Governors, Praetors and Proconsuls!
> > In ancinent Rome, they were the focal point in the collection of Taxes.
>
> Yes, you have a point here...
>

Thanks.

>
> But weren't Quaestores the head of finances? Just a sidenote.
>

yes, but the stipend was given to the Consuls and Proconsuls. It was in their
charge. It is my belief that the Quaestors were in charge of the "books." :)

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

>
> Vale,
> Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
> Wind Dragon, ICQ# 32924725
> --**--
> There are no bad guys. Just disturbed guys.
> --**--
> Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
> Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
> Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
> --**--
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] taxation & citizenship
From:	JustiniaCassia@--------
Date:	Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:50:13 EST

Salvete,

I too am troubled by the idea that one must pay for citizenship and voting
rights. Just 3 years ago my income was so meagre I received a full refund of
all the tax money withheld from my wages. One could say that for that year,
I didn't pay any taxes, except sales tax on purchases. Even in that regard,
most of my purchases were tax-exempt groceries. I suppose I did pay tax on a
few toiletries and cat food (don't worry, it was eaten by the cat, not me,
although Nine Lives Salmon Supreme does look temptingly like salmon dip).

Sales tax aside, taxation in my macronation (the US) is made on income and
certain types of property. A person who has no income or significant
property (such as an elderly parent living in the home of an adult child, or
a woman who has fled to a battered women's shelter) still is a US citizen.

While I don't oppose the tax and now can afford it, I equate citizenship with
a moral responsibility to vote, to observe and uphold laws, to serve if
called (in the military or on juries), and to treat with respect the civic
offices and institutions of one's country. Even if all I have is taken away
from me and I am thrown penniless into the street, I am still a citizen.

I would get rid of the first and second class distinctions as I feel they
cheapen the nature of citizenship, and apply the same tax to all. If there
are any Nova Romans who have no income or make so little money that they
receive full tax refunds in their macronation, perhaps we could simply exempt
them. I don't think this would amount to many people; because I have lived
in such dire straits I am usually suspicious of those who claim to be "poor
students" but do indeed have money for beer and pizza.

Iustinia Cassia

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Subject:	[novaroma] alternative to taxes
From:	"Caius Fabius" <SPQR_HQ@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 21:05:13 GMT

Why not just make money the proper way,

FINE the people who refuse to clip and paste and just attach their reply on
top of an already way too long email?

Say 1 penny per line?

Here on this group the NOVA ROMA treasury would make millions in a couple of
months!

Caius Fabius
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] taxation & citizenship
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 14:22:09 -0700

good points Justina

Livia

JustiniaCassia@-------- wrote:

> Salvete,
>
> I too am troubled by the idea that one must pay for citizenship and voting
> rights. Just 3 years ago my income was so meagre I received a full refund of
> all the tax money withheld from my wages. One could say that for that year,
> I didn't pay any taxes, except sales tax on purchases. Even in that regard,
> most of my purchases were tax-exempt groceries. I suppose I did pay tax on a
> few toiletries and cat food (don't worry, it was eaten by the cat, not me,
> although Nine Lives Salmon Supreme does look temptingly like salmon dip).
>
> Sales tax aside, taxation in my macronation (the US) is made on income and
> certain types of property. A person who has no income or significant
> property (such as an elderly parent living in the home of an adult child, or
> a woman who has fled to a battered women's shelter) still is a US citizen.
>
> While I don't oppose the tax and now can afford it, I equate citizenship with
> a moral responsibility to vote, to observe and uphold laws, to serve if
> called (in the military or on juries), and to treat with respect the civic
> offices and institutions of one's country. Even if all I have is taken away
> from me and I am thrown penniless into the street, I am still a citizen.
>
> I would get rid of the first and second class distinctions as I feel they
> cheapen the nature of citizenship, and apply the same tax to all. If there
> are any Nova Romans who have no income or make so little money that they
> receive full tax refunds in their macronation, perhaps we could simply exempt
> them. I don't think this would amount to many people; because I have lived
> in such dire straits I am usually suspicious of those who claim to be "poor
> students" but do indeed have money for beer and pizza.
>
> Iustinia Cassia
>


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Subject:	[novaroma] Let us do it the ROMAN WAY
From:	"Caius Fabius" <SPQR_HQ@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 21:26:34 GMT

I have been reading these various messages
(Including the ones that have stuff reposted 9 or more times)
{There is an egroups archive, you can direct people to refer to your messgae
rather than reprinting the whole thing}

ROMAN MONEY .......

Simple solution:

Split into three Taxation systems:

Sales tax (on things sold through the NOVA ROMA page and at NOVA ROMA
events. (It was about 1% during the time of Claudius according to some
historians.)

Local head tax, to be determined by local fgroups and used for local
expenses... from $) - $50 per year.... depending on what the local groups
does with the moeny and their local economy and monitary base. ( A college
town may have less disposable income than s a Silicon Valley ((or a silicone
valley)))

A ROMAN TAX on POWER and POSTION. You pay according to your position in
Nova Roma. In Rome you were expected to pay for your offices! You paid
great amounts to be an Aedile, and other positions also cost great sums to
attain... so....

SENATORS pay $1000 per year
EQUITES pay $100 per year
Citizens pay $10 per year.
non-citizen visitors pay $0 per year


Since the main reason for any nation to tax it's citizens was to provide for
the defense we might also put in the proviso....

"All soldiers can spend this money directly on a proper military outfit,
(helmet, shield, armour, horse, spears, fortress, up to the amount of $1000
per year) instead of paying cash to the tax collector. They must show proof
of the expense, and must will their equipment to NOVA ROMA in the event of
their death."

Yes, we should let all genders, religions and nationalities pay the same
"dues" regardless, after all, this is the NEW ROME.

If you want to do it right, open a bank accountin the name of the NON-PROFIT
Organization, and make it so that citizens can pay with the PAYPAL service.
Currently that service will give $5 to each new user who signs up, and to
the refering agency, which could be NOVA ROMA. That would be another way to
add funds to the treasury.

Now about accountability..................... hmmmmmmmm.....

Caius Fabius
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Subject:	[novaroma] response to L.Cornelius Sulla Felix, Censor
From:	"Caius Fabius" <SPQR_HQ@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 21:38:05 GMT

Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 03:47:08 -0800
From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Subject: Re: Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks

Ave,
L. Cornelius, you wrote:
"... can you answer a question for me? Can you tell me of any country that
allows its citizens to vote and NOT pay taxes? Because, I cannot think of
one. The United States or other macronational countries have taxes, whether
they are sales taxes, income taxes, value added taxes, or some other type of
taxes. If you can think of one I would appreciate it."

The United States of America does not require you to pay taxes in order to
have the franchise. It is NOT currently in the U.S. Constitution. You do
not have to pay Federal income taxes. (Most of my income is NON-Taxible,
and I use enough tax shelters that I do not have to pay Federal income
taxes!) I do not have to pay sales tax if I do not buy items which are
subject to sales tax. (THAT IS NOT A FEDERAL TAX, and not a part of Voting
in Federal elections). Many USA States do not have Property taxes or income
taxes, and you do not have to Own Property to vote in most state elections.

I wonder at the education system which allows citizens to graduate without
understanding how the USA government works. These urban legends about all
people paying taxes are merely legends although if you believe in them, you
give them substance, I suppose.

Caius Fabius

BAsically, the franschise is NOT tied to payment of taxes.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Let us do it the ROMAN WAY
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:21:23 -0700

Caius Fabius wrote:

> Sales tax (on things sold through the NOVA ROMA page and at NOVA ROMA
> events. (It was about 1% during the time of Claudius according to some
> historians.)
>

Check the original post, I believe a sales tax was included on Macellum items,
and outside the realm of the voting/non-voting issue.

> Local head tax, to be determined by local fgroups and used for local
> expenses... from $) - $50 per year.... depending on what the local groups
> does with the moeny and their local economy and monitary base. ( A college
> town may have less disposable income than s a Silicon Valley ((or a silicone
> valley)))

Part of the proposal also had a certain cut going to governors/praetors that did
the tax collection. For our purposes, I'd say it would be best to collect one
small sum, and split between local and central budgets. As is already accounted
for to a degree.

> A ROMAN TAX on POWER and POSTION. You pay according to your position in
> Nova Roma. In Rome you were expected to pay for your offices! You paid
> great amounts to be an Aedile, and other positions also cost great sums to
> attain... so....
>
> SENATORS pay $1000 per year
> EQUITES pay $100 per year
> Citizens pay $10 per year.
> non-citizen visitors pay $0 per year

While I understand your general idea here and could even support the concept of
graduated fees -- and it does adhere to "Romanness" - the numbers you throw out
are ludicrous. Senators, maybe $100 a year. No more. Otherwise, you
jeopardize their ability to retain their status. After all, we're all paying
taxes to another government first (well, except for you apparently).

Remember, before you get too puffed up with righteous indignation, that many of
those Senators are already providing the sole financial means of the state.
Lets be reasonable about what we're asking of everybody.

While I'm on that soapbox....let me reiterate a few points.

1. For cives not able to run for office, I still think (and others have pointed
out), that they should not be subject to the same rules as everybody else. So
I'd say, either have a VERY low amount, or no amount, for anybody under 21
(until such time as those under 21 could stand in an election).

2. For cives in any country of limited means, there should be a way to pay no or
low tax and suffer no penalty. This is very Roman. Remember though too....in
Livy, in the early republic, those who weren't paying also weren't allowed
adequate provision of arms to secure their safety, but were still expected to
participate in the defense of Rome.

I don't suggest anything so unpleasant here. I'm saying, yes, we need to
account equitably for those in Poland, Africa, Latin American....EVEN THE
U.S.A....who cannot afford to pay.

3. Finally, we are talking about such a small sum of money in any case for the
fully developed countries...to the tune of $20 - $25... that for the majority of
our populace, in the US, Canada, and western Europe, to be unable to afford $25
just doesn't accord with me. And, btw, I'd propose to our European and
Canadians....to stick it to them, and make it be 25 units of your own currency.
And remember, part of the original proposal accounted for deducting the cost of
exchanging currency and forwarding the payment from the total due.


> Since the main reason for any nation to tax it's citizens was to provide for
> the defense we might also put in the proviso....

Defense is expressly not one of our concerns here, so this is not as relevant to
our needs. Basically, we'd be allowing somebody to buy their reenactment gear
instead of paying taxes. Reenactment's the closest we get to RPG. So do we
want a built in reward for being closest to that which we say we want to be?


> If you want to do it right, open a bank accountin the name of the NON-PROFIT
> Organization, and make it so that citizens can pay with the PAYPAL service.
> Currently that service will give $5 to each new user who signs up, and to
> the refering agency, which could be NOVA ROMA. That would be another way to
> add funds to the treasury.

I'll fight tooth and nail before I remit funds using any sort of electronic
funds transfer.

Livia Cornelia Aurelia


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] response to L.Cornelius Sulla Felix, Censor
From:	<gmvick32@-------->
Date:	Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:42:05 -0700

Technically, you're correct. And we were speaking technically, so you're
correcting me before Sulla.

However, I do consider payment of taxes part of my obligation to the USA, and
while I seek to minimize my taxes, I wouldn't consider not paying taxes.
Specifically, income taxes. To me that's a part of citizenship.

Livia


Caius Fabius wrote:

> Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 03:47:08 -0800
> From: Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
> Subject: Re: Re: Senate tax proposal Consul Fabius Speaks
>
> Ave,
> L. Cornelius, you wrote:
> "... can you answer a question for me? Can you tell me of any country that
> allows its citizens to vote and NOT pay taxes? Because, I cannot think of
> one. The United States or other macronational countries have taxes, whether
> they are sales taxes, income taxes, value added taxes, or some other type of
> taxes. If you can think of one I would appreciate it."
>
> The United States of America does not require you to pay taxes in order to
> have the franchise. It is NOT currently in the U.S. Constitution. You do
> not have to pay Federal income taxes. (Most of my income is NON-Taxible,
> and I use enough tax shelters that I do not have to pay Federal income
> taxes!) I do not have to pay sales tax if I do not buy items which are
> subject to sales tax. (THAT IS NOT A FEDERAL TAX, and not a part of Voting
> in Federal elections). Many USA States do not have Property taxes or income
> taxes, and you do not have to Own Property to vote in most state elections.
>
> I wonder at the education system which allows citizens to graduate without
> understanding how the USA government works. These urban legends about all
> people paying taxes are merely legends although if you believe in them, you
> give them substance, I suppose.
>
> Caius Fabius
>
> BAsically, the franschise is NOT tied to payment of taxes.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
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>



> Ave,
> L. Cornelius, you wrote:
> "... can you answer a question for me? Can you tell me of any country that
> allows its citizens to vote and NOT pay taxes? Because, I cannot think of
> one. The United States or other macronational countries have taxes, whether
> they are sales taxes, income taxes, value added taxes, or some other type of
> taxes. If you can think of one I would appreciate it."
>
> The United States of America does not require you to pay taxes in order to
> have the franchise. It is NOT currently in the U.S. Constitution. You do
> not have to pay Federal income taxes. (Most of my income is NON-Taxible,
> and I use enough tax shelters that I do not have to pay Federal income
> taxes!) I do not have to pay sales tax if I do not buy items which are
> subject to sales tax. (THAT IS NOT A FEDERAL TAX, and not a part of Voting
> in Federal elections). Many USA States do not have Property taxes or income
> taxes, and you do not have to Own Property to vote in most state elections.
>
> I wonder at the education system which allows citizens to graduate without
> understanding how the USA government works. These urban legends about all
> people paying taxes are merely legends although if you believe in them, you
> give them substance, I suppose.
>
> Caius Fabius
>
> BAsically, the franschise is NOT tied to payment of taxes.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>


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